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Well we all know one person their Joe wants to do, but I also understand his frustration. His character has evolved alot from the problematic, sex obsessed dude bro. People could acknowledge that.
I disagree that he was ever “problematic”. He was honest about his intentions and when someone said no he instantly respected it and didn’t try to bully them into it. He did EXACTLY what everyone says men should d (affirmative consent, respecting decisions, etc.) but still gets shit on for it.
He did it in his private journal which was stolen and leaked. It’s no different than if a girls diary was taken. He used a numeric system, other people use words. In the end his private thoughts were exposed without consent. He was the victim for that situation, not the girls.
His private journal, which he kept mentioning to other people and announcing their ratings – at least for the hot ones. He also had an RSS feed and regularly offered people the password – so not really so private.
To expand on what miri said, objectifying human beings is quite problematic. Joe was better than most men are about it, yes, absolutely. But that’s not least because when he realized how bad it was, he turned around and stopped and apologized as effectively as he could.
I mean Joe also said stuff like Joyce needed to be “broken in” early on. That he would be “fixing her with his penis.” and in general believing that her virginal status was an undesirable trait and that fucking her would improve her fuckability “upgrading her from a 4 to a 10” on his do-list.
He’d also regularly be the guy in the back shouting “make out” whenever two girls were in conflict. Early Joe wasn’t a rapist and adamantly against that, but that doesn’t make him a great guy.
I don’t think he gets any points. The only slack he gets from me is that he’s young. 18 year old young men are dumb and horny and essentially taught to act like he does from mainstream media. That plus he seems to be growing out of it after spending time in non sexual relationships with real young women and he’s realized the damage he’s done. Of course it took his do-list being leaked to really start this change so he ain’t no saint for this growth.
The other point I’d say he gets is that half his original bullshit was performative. That’s still not great, but it does mean that some of the worst stuff he boasted about wasn’t real – no using booze to get threesomes, for example.
Not so much points as “not as bad as we thought he was.”
All of the above. Like I want to be clear, I love Joe and I think he is one of the most interesting characters in the comic. It’s very sad that it doesn’t seem like he has any actual friends and his thing for Joyce is sweet and heartbreaking. But he also totally got himself into this situation by absolutely sucking at being a human being. Love you, get well soon bud.
My point is he’s incredibly low on the list of “problematic characters”.
Joyce: well meaning, but her behavior is consistently selfish and at times downright hurtful.
Mike: Violence. Non-stop violence
Ruth: Authority figure who consistently uses violence and threats to get her way. Sleeps with someone she’s responsible for.
Amber: Incredible amounts of trauma that she deals with not through therapy, but by beating the shit out of people and taking insane risks.
Billie: Narcissistic personality who ignores or abuses in some way anyone who doesn’t fit into her desired view of reality.
Roz: Female Joe, but no one shits on her all the time. And she’s far more aggressive with her bullshit.
And many more. The point is yes, Joe could have been better. But if you look at the reality of the actions he’s done some of the least actual damage and he is one of the few to actually change for the better.
To be clear, they aren’t bad kids. They’re learning who they are and how the world works. But my issue is Joe getting shit on harder than he should compared to the others based on actual actions taken for no reason I can see other than he’s a boy instead of a girl.
I will respond to this one more time before recusing myself from this conversation, now that I am sitting upright.
Outlining your argument as if there is some kind of peer-reviewed, objective “scale of problematicness” makes your argument fallacious from the beginning. Everyone has different opinions on what kind of behavior that they consider “problematic” from both fictional characters and their peers, and you placing Joe’s relentless sexual harassment of women (which I will grant you he is trying to get better about) does not actually say anything to me except for where you place this behavior on your own personal scale.
All of the examples that you have outlined of problematic behavior from different characters I have seen shredded in the comments section again and again, but even if I hadn’t, for the sake of your argument I would like to give you something to chew on. Much of the violence that has happened in this comic has been exaggerated to cartoonish levels, probably because Willis does not want the strip to be seen as too mature. People do not often suffer cartoonish levels of violence in reality, but I will wager that most women and female-presenting persons have been victims of sexual harassment before, which is why Joe’s particular storyline can feel more “visceral” to people than Amber flipping a table in the cafeteria or whatever.
Your argument hinges upon Joe’s behavior having no actual victims, but in a strip linked above, Joyce outlines the real, actual ramifications of Joe’s behavior and mindset very cleanly. Even if Joe had not actually hurt anyone (which is debatable, because I doubt any of the girls that found themselves on his “do-list” felt psychologically good about that fact), he is complicit in cultivating an atmosphere in which women are treated as objects to which men feel entitled. This had actual physical ramifications for Joyce, who started hallucinating her attacker everywhere and became afraid to walk anywhere by herself. Being afraid to walk places alone is a very common experience for single women. Street harassment continues to be a real thing that happens everywhere.
Once again, I like Joe, and I think he is a good character. But he does totally deserve the shit that he gets in-comic, and part of improving yourself is accepting the consequences of his actions. It’s only been a few months, people’s memories aren’t that short. As for the shit he gets out-of-comic, I completely disagree that he gets it any harder than any given female character – the comments section during the recent Joyce-Becky fight was an absolute shitshow. He’s also fictional, and not actually going to read any of this.
Yeah, but are any of those friends interesting enough to be characters with frequent panel time? Nope. It’s either this group or Joe fades into the background. Guys don’t get much focus as it is, so he’d be at risk of becoming a D lister like Carl or Peter and no one wants to be those guys.
That ship sailed when his Do List leaked. The only people who find that acceptable are the types he probably wouldn’t want to associate with. Even he sees how wrong that was in hindsight.
of course there’s more to him than that, but he did kinda have an infamous reputation after the sex tape and list, so it’d be hard for ppl that’s not closer to really change their stance on him quite yet lol
It’s kind of interesting that only Joe had any kind of real blowback from the sex tape. After all, it was Roz’s project and she was doing it to damage her sister’s re-election campaign. More, it was pretty clear that, as much as Roz disagreed with Robin’s politics, she mostly resented her “fame.”
Also, Joe’s date with Joyce quickly ended with her and Mike beating him up because he couldn’t keep his eyes off Connie.
Which I thought was a great story line.
I don’t think anyone really got blowback for the sex tape which is kind of ironic since it even failed at its intended purpose. Robin pulled out of a campaign she was winning in spite of the tape which was only even relevant for maybe a week at most. Robin having a beer with Leslie did more damage than the sex tape.
She and Dorothy will organize a schedule that ensures everyone gets to fool around with everyone they want to on their list in a timely and orderly fashion
Reading this later it reads like Joyce’s food must never be touched by her sex partners and I had a “What, yuck?!” moment about food touched by people having sex…
What is Joe’s outfit here? It doesn’t look like normal clothes, but it also doesn’t look like a costume.. at least without color info? Anyone know or have a guess?
Thanks, though I’m not convinced. Not to make this a thing, but humour has been on my mind since yesterday’s discussion, so my reasoning here is, avoid jokes that dehumanize people who have a history of being dehumanized. Obviously I didn’t mean anything by it, but I’m not in a position to judge of its effect on folks who might recognise themselves in the stigma.
Ah don’t worry about it. Honestly I find taking Mary as a fascist seriously kind of funny because I have Actual fascists just across the border, invading Ukraine and doing all the Fascist things.
It’s cute that you don’t think Mary is a young Actual Fascist. Glad your fascists are across the border. Mine are on the highest court in the fucking nation.
We had bombs exploding 10 miles from our border and Russian politicians openly talk about bombing our Capital. I’d happily switch my fascists for yours.
@Schpoonman: wow, are you drunk? that was incredibly insensitive.
@Eldritchy: yeah, fair enough. i’ll keep taking fascists in america seriously, but i can very well understand that rates low among your worries at the moment. I hope you and yours are safe as can be, and wish you strength
Joe… actually isn’t that popular, come to think of it. You never see him with a different circle of friends, and most of his sexual partners have been from this dorm. (Malaya, Roz, that’s all I can remember). Compared to Jennifer, Joe is actually more introverted. He clearly doesn’t have a Halloween-party-filled-with-people-he-wants-to-sleep-with to go to.
There was a Booster strip where he admits that he’s comfortable with Danny as his only friend, and the only other interactions he wants are with potential sexual conquests. I don’t know if he is “introverted” as much as he places a higher value on casual sex than friendship.
In other words. Amber don’t want to think about their parents getting married and just change the subject. Poor shy Joe, he’s too intimidated for asking them directly.
“I’ll be halfway to Texas when I get to Wichita.
Nine hours, 900 miles of running
in the rain and Wichita keeps on coming!
Wichita, Wichita, what you got to say?
Don’t know where I’m going but I’m certainly on my way.
Wichita, Wichita, you gonna sing me home?
Halfway there, but I’m halfway gone…”
Bull, Joe, you’ve expressed interest in Sarah before…. Seems like it happened in Roomies, so as long as you don’t do something crazy in this timeline like hook up with her sister…
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sometimes a party is just a party
one where everyone is obligated to have hamster cheeks stuffed with junk food
but what if Fuckface just uh
that > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tSfLKTTxtc
Iguana Iguaction
For some reason when I first read this my brain first interpreted it as “Live Iguana Reaction”
Sweet merciful Neptune.
That can be arranged!
*plays “Filthy Gorgeous” by Scissor Sisters on hacked muzak*
Omg
That was AWESOME
Hooray for penis diversity
Hamster cheeks, YEEE!
Brutal honesty from Joe as always.
I’m just taking this to mean Joe would totally be down for boning some dudes.
Was Joe on the Canonically Bi page a few years ago? I can’t remember one way or the other.
IIRC, Walky, Joyce and Joe were the only names on the “Completely Straight” list.
… honestly not 100% convinced for any of those three.
Eh, I can buy Walky being straight. It’s Jason who I have a tougher time pegging as bi.
Memory suggests that Walky showed up at a gay-courious event offering to give a blow job for a pizza, but it’s Walky so probably not significant.
Didnt he identify as pizzasexual? Or was that Ana Chronistic, whose commentary is practically part of the strip honestly
I’m demi, meaning it must be a pizza I REALLY LIKE
Hehehe “pegging”
Yeah, that could have been phrased better. (Or maybe not, heh-heh.)
I bet Ruth doesn’t have a tough time pegging him.
There’s a canoniically bi page? What have I been missing?
It is not surprising to me that Joe is down for mixed-gender group sex
What is surprising to me is that the potential inclusion of Walky in it is not a dealbreaker (at least short of the group being significantly larger)
Some of you are readying to reach for the reply button to notify me that Danny is also there, to which I say yes I saw him.
“It was always going to come to this, wasn’t it?”
“I’m going to need you to not talk to me until pants are back on.”
The best part is you could feasibly give either character either line.
ha.
There’s always Fuckface
Well we all know one person their Joe wants to do, but I also understand his frustration. His character has evolved alot from the problematic, sex obsessed dude bro. People could acknowledge that.
I mean, everyone is awful.
We just love them anyway.
I disagree that he was ever “problematic”. He was honest about his intentions and when someone said no he instantly respected it and didn’t try to bully them into it. He did EXACTLY what everyone says men should d (affirmative consent, respecting decisions, etc.) but still gets shit on for it.
Rating women on a scale of one to ten based on how fuckable you find them is a shitty thing to do.
He did it in his private journal which was stolen and leaked. It’s no different than if a girls diary was taken. He used a numeric system, other people use words. In the end his private thoughts were exposed without consent. He was the victim for that situation, not the girls.
His private journal, which he kept mentioning to other people and announcing their ratings – at least for the hot ones. He also had an RSS feed and regularly offered people the password – so not really so private.
To expand on what miri said, objectifying human beings is quite problematic. Joe was better than most men are about it, yes, absolutely. But that’s not least because when he realized how bad it was, he turned around and stopped and apologized as effectively as he could.
I mean Joe also said stuff like Joyce needed to be “broken in” early on. That he would be “fixing her with his penis.” and in general believing that her virginal status was an undesirable trait and that fucking her would improve her fuckability “upgrading her from a 4 to a 10” on his do-list.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/corrupt/
He’d also regularly be the guy in the back shouting “make out” whenever two girls were in conflict. Early Joe wasn’t a rapist and adamantly against that, but that doesn’t make him a great guy.
“Not a rapist” is such a low bar to clear, he really doesn’t get any points for clearing it. Nobody should.
I don’t think he gets any points. The only slack he gets from me is that he’s young. 18 year old young men are dumb and horny and essentially taught to act like he does from mainstream media. That plus he seems to be growing out of it after spending time in non sexual relationships with real young women and he’s realized the damage he’s done. Of course it took his do-list being leaked to really start this change so he ain’t no saint for this growth.
The other point I’d say he gets is that half his original bullshit was performative. That’s still not great, but it does mean that some of the worst stuff he boasted about wasn’t real – no using booze to get threesomes, for example.
Not so much points as “not as bad as we thought he was.”
And it’s not like he really respected women’s “no”s. He’d say he did, if they were forceful enough, but keep coming around for another try.
The objectifying went beyond just the list too, though that’s the most obvious manifestation. For quite a while, he essentially never interacted with women outside of them as sex objects.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/04-the-do-list/object/
All of the above. Like I want to be clear, I love Joe and I think he is one of the most interesting characters in the comic. It’s very sad that it doesn’t seem like he has any actual friends and his thing for Joyce is sweet and heartbreaking. But he also totally got himself into this situation by absolutely sucking at being a human being. Love you, get well soon bud.
My point is he’s incredibly low on the list of “problematic characters”.
Joyce: well meaning, but her behavior is consistently selfish and at times downright hurtful.
Mike: Violence. Non-stop violence
Ruth: Authority figure who consistently uses violence and threats to get her way. Sleeps with someone she’s responsible for.
Amber: Incredible amounts of trauma that she deals with not through therapy, but by beating the shit out of people and taking insane risks.
Billie: Narcissistic personality who ignores or abuses in some way anyone who doesn’t fit into her desired view of reality.
Roz: Female Joe, but no one shits on her all the time. And she’s far more aggressive with her bullshit.
And many more. The point is yes, Joe could have been better. But if you look at the reality of the actions he’s done some of the least actual damage and he is one of the few to actually change for the better.
To be clear, they aren’t bad kids. They’re learning who they are and how the world works. But my issue is Joe getting shit on harder than he should compared to the others based on actual actions taken for no reason I can see other than he’s a boy instead of a girl.
The girls in this strip get shit on in thr comments section non-stop, and generally with more genuine vitriol than I have ever seen pointed at Joe.
I will respond to this one more time before recusing myself from this conversation, now that I am sitting upright.
Outlining your argument as if there is some kind of peer-reviewed, objective “scale of problematicness” makes your argument fallacious from the beginning. Everyone has different opinions on what kind of behavior that they consider “problematic” from both fictional characters and their peers, and you placing Joe’s relentless sexual harassment of women (which I will grant you he is trying to get better about) does not actually say anything to me except for where you place this behavior on your own personal scale.
All of the examples that you have outlined of problematic behavior from different characters I have seen shredded in the comments section again and again, but even if I hadn’t, for the sake of your argument I would like to give you something to chew on. Much of the violence that has happened in this comic has been exaggerated to cartoonish levels, probably because Willis does not want the strip to be seen as too mature. People do not often suffer cartoonish levels of violence in reality, but I will wager that most women and female-presenting persons have been victims of sexual harassment before, which is why Joe’s particular storyline can feel more “visceral” to people than Amber flipping a table in the cafeteria or whatever.
Your argument hinges upon Joe’s behavior having no actual victims, but in a strip linked above, Joyce outlines the real, actual ramifications of Joe’s behavior and mindset very cleanly. Even if Joe had not actually hurt anyone (which is debatable, because I doubt any of the girls that found themselves on his “do-list” felt psychologically good about that fact), he is complicit in cultivating an atmosphere in which women are treated as objects to which men feel entitled. This had actual physical ramifications for Joyce, who started hallucinating her attacker everywhere and became afraid to walk anywhere by herself. Being afraid to walk places alone is a very common experience for single women. Street harassment continues to be a real thing that happens everywhere.
Once again, I like Joe, and I think he is a good character. But he does totally deserve the shit that he gets in-comic, and part of improving yourself is accepting the consequences of his actions. It’s only been a few months, people’s memories aren’t that short. As for the shit he gets out-of-comic, I completely disagree that he gets it any harder than any given female character – the comments section during the recent Joyce-Becky fight was an absolute shitshow. He’s also fictional, and not actually going to read any of this.
Poor Joe.
I feel like he needs to find new friends who don’t think of him as disgusting.
There are other dorms, friend.
He could stand to expand his horizons a bit, sure.
Yeah, but are any of those friends interesting enough to be characters with frequent panel time? Nope. It’s either this group or Joe fades into the background. Guys don’t get much focus as it is, so he’d be at risk of becoming a D lister like Carl or Peter and no one wants to be those guys.
Maybe he did, I missed him in the time jump episodes.
That ship sailed when his Do List leaked. The only people who find that acceptable are the types he probably wouldn’t want to associate with. Even he sees how wrong that was in hindsight.
of course there’s more to him than that, but he did kinda have an infamous reputation after the sex tape and list, so it’d be hard for ppl that’s not closer to really change their stance on him quite yet lol
It’s kind of interesting that only Joe had any kind of real blowback from the sex tape. After all, it was Roz’s project and she was doing it to damage her sister’s re-election campaign. More, it was pretty clear that, as much as Roz disagreed with Robin’s politics, she mostly resented her “fame.”
Also, Joe’s date with Joyce quickly ended with her and Mike beating him up because he couldn’t keep his eyes off Connie.
Which I thought was a great story line.
How much blowback did he get from the sex tape? I think Joyce went after him for it, but that’s about it. And she went after Roz too, iirc.
I don’t think anyone really got blowback for the sex tape which is kind of ironic since it even failed at its intended purpose. Robin pulled out of a campaign she was winning in spite of the tape which was only even relevant for maybe a week at most. Robin having a beer with Leslie did more damage than the sex tape.
School official warned Roz not to do anything like it again.
How will Joyce’s desire to keep everything distinct and separate manifest in her orgy behavior?
She and Dorothy will organize a schedule that ensures everyone gets to fool around with everyone they want to on their list in a timely and orderly fashion
But they can’t touch each other and then touch her. Joyce’s food and sex partners must be strictly segregated.
Reading this later it reads like Joyce’s food must never be touched by her sex partners and I had a “What, yuck?!” moment about food touched by people having sex…
latex bodysuit
Suuure you don’t, Joe.
But he’s right. He doesn’t want just anybody at the party.
*looks for a snack food jingle to play*
Ooh, do Goldfish.
The wholesome snack that smiles back until you bite their heads off! Didn’t that make you feel good about Goldfish?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBDWLM2AphA
Memento mori.
nah… “Eat It” – Weird Al
♫ I’m gonna be the snack that smiles back, oooh, the Kit to your Kat, I’m gonna be the one you unwrap, just take me out and break me in half ♫
Sorry Joe this is what happens when you base the entirety of your personal on a single trait and you put all your chips on HORNY
Is Joe’s Halloween costume a … soccer team uniform?
it was posted on tumblr way back, i think it’s one of the guys from ted lasso
Specifically, Roy Kent.
live lizard reactionWhat is Joe’s outfit here? It doesn’t look like normal clothes, but it also doesn’t look like a costume.. at least without color info? Anyone know or have a guess?
I see another question I’ve asked is answered directly above me. Well, fair! Answer: Roy Kent from Ted Lasso.
Roy Kent from Ted Lasso
Also hi Joe. You look like you’re roughing it, buddy.
If only we could warn him about his encounter with Liz… but that would create a time paradox, wouldn’t it?
If this is a prelude to a Slipshine, I wouldn’t mind.
Of course Walky is using Sal’s helmet as a candy bowl.
He is a smart kid after all.
Not so smart if Sal discovers her helmet caked with sweats…
Specimen displays elevated problem-solving skills.
Concerning Specimen’s possession of a theory of mind, the evidence remains inconclusive.
Hm. That was in so-so taste. Apologies. Please consider my joke retracted and face palmed
Naah it was good XD
Thanks, though I’m not convinced. Not to make this a thing, but humour has been on my mind since yesterday’s discussion, so my reasoning here is, avoid jokes that dehumanize people who have a history of being dehumanized. Obviously I didn’t mean anything by it, but I’m not in a position to judge of its effect on folks who might recognise themselves in the stigma.
Ah don’t worry about it. Honestly I find taking Mary as a fascist seriously kind of funny because I have Actual fascists just across the border, invading Ukraine and doing all the Fascist things.
It’s cute that you don’t think Mary is a young Actual Fascist. Glad your fascists are across the border. Mine are on the highest court in the fucking nation.
We had bombs exploding 10 miles from our border and Russian politicians openly talk about bombing our Capital. I’d happily switch my fascists for yours.
@Schpoonman: wow, are you drunk? that was incredibly insensitive.
@Eldritchy: yeah, fair enough. i’ll keep taking fascists in america seriously, but i can very well understand that rates low among your worries at the moment. I hope you and yours are safe as can be, and wish you strength
@milu Thanks, we all have our important problems, wish you luck with solving yours.
If it’s caked in sweats, 1. she did that and 2. she needs to take better care of her gear. Pads and liners are removable for a reason!
Now if it gets caked in sweets, then yes that’s his fault.
Candy trumps Sex
Candy is dandy, but liquor is quick’r
You can get all yer liquor down in cost-a-ricca
Ain’t nobody’s business but your own.
Joe… actually isn’t that popular, come to think of it. You never see him with a different circle of friends, and most of his sexual partners have been from this dorm. (Malaya, Roz, that’s all I can remember). Compared to Jennifer, Joe is actually more introverted. He clearly doesn’t have a Halloween-party-filled-with-people-he-wants-to-sleep-with to go to.
Malaya wasn’t actually from this dorm when they got together, and he was… friend-ish with Jacob, who isn’t part of this circle.
With Jacob it was probably just due to Gym-Proximity.
There was a Booster strip where he admits that he’s comfortable with Danny as his only friend, and the only other interactions he wants are with potential sexual conquests. I don’t know if he is “introverted” as much as he places a higher value on casual sex than friendship.
Heh, that sort of implies that Jacob is a potential sexual conquest of Joe’s. Which…I doubt.
Penny.
I suspect we just haven’t seen all his partners.
In other words. Amber don’t want to think about their parents getting married and just change the subject. Poor shy Joe, he’s too intimidated for asking them directly.
Joe has the Stepsister fetish, of course he would; it’s not incest, if you’re not biologically related, right? Right??
It’s been pretty clear from the beginning of their respective parents’ relationship that Joe is serious about treating Amber as his genuine sister.
That is thankfully true.
What is Joe? I thought he was a Star Trek thing now I dont know.
Roy Kent, from Ted Lasso.
-*In honor of Kansas’s historic pro-choice voter referendum, plays “7 Nation Army” on the hacked Muzak*
“I’m going to Wichita! A 7-nation army couldn’t hold me back!”
Good job, Kansas!
Hooray for Sanity, and Doctors, and Nurses!
Kansas; sorta like Texas; hot and dry, only not stooopit!
One down, 49 to go. Gotta start somewhere, right?
“I’ll be halfway to Texas when I get to Wichita.”
-The Billies, “Wichita”
“I’ll be halfway to Texas when I get to Wichita.
Nine hours, 900 miles of running
in the rain and Wichita keeps on coming!
Wichita, Wichita, what you got to say?
Don’t know where I’m going but I’m certainly on my way.
Wichita, Wichita, you gonna sing me home?
Halfway there, but I’m halfway gone…”
The Billies, “Wichita”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZSah7OYdqc
I feel Amber would know how to say “ulterior motive”.
The list says otherwise
Bull, Joe, you’ve expressed interest in Sarah before…. Seems like it happened in Roomies, so as long as you don’t do something crazy in this timeline like hook up with her sister…
Oh-h, that look in panel 1…
Anybody else up for a Walky/Amber Slipshine?
I’m sure Joe would be ok with doing some of the people there, but probably not all of them.
Especially one in particular.
Oooh, yay for wedding dates!