Thank you, I do not enjoy the label skeptic being applied to those people. Skepticism does not demand that one adhere to any given particular worldview, but you scratch the surface of any of those misogynists and you get a rant on “evolutionary biology” that is so unsupported by science or experimental design to be laughable.
Anyone who calls themselves a skeptic and then places “logic” above evidence is no such thing.
It is interesting how so many of those who call themselves “rational” or “skeptics” seem to fall back on the old pre-scientific method approach of building extended logic chains that are never checked against evidence.
Yeah, but Joyce spent a whole bunch of thought and energy untangling her cognitive dissonance around the first one and probably didn’t have room to deal with the second, haha
While they didn’t full-on kiss, IIRC joyce once mentioned that she’s pretty sure her sense of what close friends do with each other vis-à-vis physical intimacy may have been slightly warped by Becky’s Perverse Sexual Lust long-held torch for her.
Probably things like sleepovers spent in close physical proximity (which is definitely not something I did with my teenage crush/first love that wasn’t returned except I did). Also possibly a level of emotional intimacy beyond what is considered socially “normal”.
So I went back and followed the link to the kiss, then the confession, then the reconciliation and then Dorothy, which if you read that you start to realize that this strip isn’t a throwaway line on her part. I think she legit has a thing for Joyce.
I don’t think the conservative viewpoint matters to Joyce as much as her internalized sense of shame. To her being seen as a lesbian is better than being a hussy.
No, but it’s better according to the way Joyce’s mind currently works, even if she’s on some level aware that her stigma around sexuality is irrational.
To me it seems more like she knows she’s not a lesbian, so she’s secure enough not to care what others think, but her sexual feelings in framework of how she was raised, make her feel ashamed, like maybe she is a hussy, and maybe that’s bad. If I didn’t make it clear this is my take on how she feels, not me saying being a hussy is bad.
It’s probably not where Willis is going but being sex repulsed could also be something this Joyce has. She loves romance but has no interest, whatsoever, in the icky physical part.
I believe we’ve seen her have many sexual thoughts/fantasies (that were frequently, hilariously wrong in the details) and be intensely, immediately guilty about them.
Not to mention that if sexualities are consistent across universes, she and Walky had a very vigorous and happy sex life over in the Walkyverse, once she got over her issues enough to for them to start it up.
Being ace is a sexuality, I’m not sure being sex repulsed is. Like how Jacob is straight in both universes, but isn’t a sex addict in this one. I’m not even sure her fantasies rule out this possibility.
(Over-sharing time: I’ve never had the opportunity to find out, because it would involve meeting people and talking to them and stuff, but I’m pretty sure I’d be at least a little grossed out if I were involved in actual real-world sex, and this has no effect on my fantasies, where I just decide nothing I’d react badly to ever happens.)
I’ve always understood sex-repulsion to be a subset of asexuality; some aces are, some aren’t. As an aro/ace myself I’m not really sure how to square the concept of sex-repulsion with allosexuality unless we’re talking about an aversion to sex stemming from sexual trauma maybe, and half the point of claiming asexuality as an identity is disassociating it from the idea that not experiencing sexual attraction or not wanting sex indicates that you have a problem. Trauma *is*, by definition, a problem (although how people handle their trauma is entirely their own business). But I may be out of my depth on this one, so I’ll stop here, except to say that evidence rather overwhelmingly points to this universe’s Joyce very badly wanting to have sex while being terrified at the idea of herself as a sexual person. I truly, genuinely do not think she is sex-repulsed. She’s frightened and ashamed about feeling sexual desire because she was raised in a cult that taught her to feel fear and shame about feeling sexual desire. If she didn’t desire sex, she’d probably feel a lot less intensely about all this.
(Also, we actually don’t know Jacob ISN’T a sex addict in this universe! I think it was heavily implied he and Raidah were not having sex, and that that was a deliberate choice. There’s a million reasons why that could be, and I’m not making any assumptions there, but just because we haven’t seen anything concretely suggesting that he is a sex addict doesn’t definitely prove it’s not something he’s ever struggled with in the past or will in the future.)
As someone else on the asexual spectrum, I would not say sex-repulsion is a subset of asexuality.
I would suggest it is a normal sexual mechanism where when you are NOT sexually attracted to someone, you may be actively repulsed or disinterested by the thought of sex with them. Just taken to a wider conclusion that many aces lack sexual attraction to everyone or with very limited exceptions, so aces trend towards repulsion or disinterest. And similarly, like some people can have a good time and enjoy sex with people they are not attracted to, some aces can also do that.
I think most people do experience repulsion/disinterest towards some people. It’s just not. Usually the same rule for everybody/almost everybody. Because people that can just feel sexual attraction at any time have different levels of it towards different people. Instead of the same level for most/all.
And like, honestly, Becky by all accounts, is probably a pretty good example of someone that is very likely repulsed by the thought of ever touching a man intimately. But is not ace and it isn’t the result of trauma. She just isn’t attracted to men.
Oh thank you, that is a helpful of framing it! Right, of course allosexuality is not synonymous with pansexuality. I was thinking of sex-repulsion as sort of universal—“a hard no on all forms of sex with other people” (or even with oneself)—rather than something that could be broken down to “a hard no on sex with [X], but yes to sex with [Y].” Yeah, I can see it as situational and not specifically linked to asexuality, then.
I think it’s generally treated as universal, because the conditional version is so commonly assumed that it doesn’t stand out, so it only really gets noticed when sex repulsion shows up in ace people.
Like many straight men are repulsed by the thought of sex with other men, but not all. Some are not just attracted to men, but not repelled by the mechanics. We don’t think of that as a separate thing, just as part of being straight.
A lot of these things that usually come as a package actually do break down into separate traits.
I am a sex repulsed Ace and I would say that “Sex-repulsed” is not an orientation but rather a descriptor to clarify how open an Ace is to sexual acts.
Black Ace (Sex repulsed) may not be willing to perform sexual acts because they find it repulsive or displeasurable. Without the attraction and the emotions to get you into a black ace may just see sweaty with a bunch of gross body fluids and derive no pleasure. White Ace (Sex positive), though lacking feelings of sexual attraction, may find sex enjoyable and choose to participate in it whether that’s with a partner or on their own.
Keep in mind that Ace only describes a lack of feeling sexual attraction, not a person’s outlook on sex. You don’t have to be sexually attracted to participate or enjoy participating in sexual activities.
I read it as about sex. If she’s obviously in a relationship with a woman, then she’s clearly not getting birth control so she can have sex. She can be in a romantic relationship, but still not having sex until marriage.
Like Becky and Dina.
anyway yeah, you’re right, it’s probably both. then again she hasn’t particularly implied to to the pharmacist that she’s NOT fucking, just that, like, she’s super in this committed relationship, that happens to be gay, soooo that’s airtight, don’t look at me goodbye
Dorothy in the last panel concerns me; not concerned about her specifically but about her friendship with Joyce. She wouldn’t give up on Yale just to stay with Joyce, right?
I am only now seeing that Palpatine got autocorrected to Palatine.
As to your question Kyrik…
Because the Game Grumps live in my brain rent free.
And now they do yours as well.
**evil laughter**
I mean, maybe she should? It doesn’t seem like the school they’re at is disreputable or anything, just less academically rigorous than Yale, and we’ve already seen her struggle with keeping her grades up even though she currently has it under control. Also, she’s very specifically attempting to transfer for the purpose of furthering her extremely unlikely dream – I’m not saying that she would be a bad politician, but only a tiny percentage of talented politicians get to be president. There’s no reason Dorothy couldn’t go into politics after graduating here and, you know, figure out if that’s actually something she enjoys doing and all. At least here she has an established support circle, and Joyce’s weird lack of boundaries around her keeps her from being able to isolate herself to an extent that’s really bad for her, including academically.
(And I hate that I have to say this, but I would have the same opinion if Dorothy was a boy. Dorothy is like 18 or something and has no experience with her chosen field apart from maybe student government. The reality of this could be anything for her. If anything, I’d probably be harder on a hypothetical male Dorothy.)
yes the presidential dream is a bit childish. she’s 19, it’s whatever. She should definitely still go to Yale, because she’s determined and passionate and i hope she listens to that. in time she’ll realize being where she can put her skills to good use matters more than reaching any one specific office, let alone the oval one. her motivations are values and belief in changing the system from the inside, way more than the spotlight or glory, so she’ll be fine.
I’m not saying that she would be a bad politician, but only a tiny percentage of talented politicians get to be president.
I was going to agree with this but say it’s like the lottery – only a tiny minority of lottery players win, but someone’s going to, and it’s as likely to be you as any of the others. And if you don’t enter, you definitely won’t win.
Then I realised that last bit is why “entering the lottery” is not equivalent to “being a talented politician” in this analogy…
“You can’t win if you don’t play – and playing doesn’t significantly increase your chances.”
It would be interesting to that dug into a bit more: does she have any interests or goals in politics beside being President. Is she more interested in a legislative seat or in being a governor?
Like even a really fast political ascent is likely to spend a lot of time doing other political work before becoming President – and no offense to Dorothy, I don’t think she’s got the raw charisma and political talent that propel someone to quick stardom – Obama being the biggest example of that. And even he spent 12 years in state and federal elected office before running for President.
Agreed. My DH and I dated in high school and went to different colleges. The time apart, while miserable in some ways, cemented our relationship in others.
Dorothy in that last panel is either “… yeah, huh, love. *Huh.*” or “yeah, Joyce is pretty annoying lately”, and the ambiguity over these day is starting to drive me nuts.
(Optional bonus “yeah, huh, Joyce really is infatuated with me and puts me on a pedestal and I only just realized it” option.)
Seriously, what in Joyce’s portrayal gives you the slightest hint in that direction? Joyce is sexually repressed and ashamed due to upbringing. That’s not at all the same as being ace.
I like Willis’ commitment to representation and his expansion of not particularly well-represented groups in his fiction. It’s something I really admire about him and have several ace friends who I think would love to see themselves in Joyce (sadly, we all come from repressive fundamentalist households).
While I hear you on wanting representation, specifically ace rep, that is not who Joyce is, and taking her in that direction would require substantially rewriting massive swaths of her history *in this strip alone* and never mind all of Walkyverse’s fairly deep history regarding Joyce and sex.
And at the risk of treading into some murky and sensitive ground, Willis has explicitly said Joyce is autobiographical, and I’m pretty sure that extends to their own personal journey with regards to sex and sexual desire. I don’t think Willis writes Joyce as allosexual by default or for lack of an imagination on the topic; I think Joyce being allosexual is a huge and fundamental part of her character, and will continue to be a huge and important part of her arc in years to come. (And honestly, it’s *because* it’s so personally informed by authorial, experience that it’s this incredibly psychologically rich and nuanced subject in the comic, and I’m very interested in it despite never having experienced sexual attraction in my own life.)
And for the record, I am extremely ace, and I love to claim characters with undefined sexualities as ace whenever it’s plausible. But I don’t think it’s even a little bit plausible with Joyce, and it wouldn’t make her any more appealing to me. It would probably feel wrong to me, because that would be a character I wouldn’t recognize as Joyce—Joyce in name, but not in substance.
I was not really talking about that. I meant more her being free to actually take care of herself without having to worry about living up to her religiously imposed standards. That said, I feel the need to point out that she has repeatedly shown sexual interest in others, just usually with a heavy dose of repression.
Dorothy has already seen the strips, and complained about them (“I’ve only slept with three people!”), so the only thing publication would change would be other people’s comments.
My 15-year-old foster daughter came from an Assembly of God family. My then-wife was a lapsed Methodist, and I’m an atheist. Still, we let our foster daughter go to her prayer meetings and weekend retreats. She started having severe menstrual cramps in the summer, and her OB put her on a weak version of the pill, explaining the dose was NOT sufficient to act as birth control. When the cramps failed to subside, the OB upped her dose until she was on regular birth control. She’s 47, now. Two years ago, she confessed that she never had those severe cramps. A friend at a retreat told her how to get the pill without asking for birth control. Crazy thing is we’d offered to put her and my step-daughter on birth control three months before the fake cramps. She was afraid her birth parents would find out. That’s the same parents the state took her from because they believed beating her with a 2X4 was appropriate discipline for getting home an hour late from a prayer meeting.
That’s horrible all around, bar you and her still having a good, supportive relationship (and her friends and her being able to talk about this stuff and access healthcare, and her particular sect not taking the attitude “you deserve it coz Eve had fruit and tempted Adam with it, even though Jesus died and wiped the slate clean you are chock full of original sin and deserve to suffer because of this” to cramps…)
oh wow. thanks for sharing, that does shed light on Joyce’s reaction.
I hadn’t even considered that in Joyce’s family environment she might have been accused of faking the cramps and was actually a “hussy”.. but of course she would be thinking that.
Milu, it’s “better” than that: she stated outright she was raised to believe that cramps were punishment for women due to Eve eating the apple. She thought she deserved to be in these levels of pain for the sin of being female. Interfering with that would interfere with the divine plan the terrifying “all-loving” divinity she was raised with had for her. (Near the start of this arc, her response to Jennifer telling her the Pill would help, followed by an “is what I would have said before I became an atheist…”)
Her current freakout is over other people judging her. She grew up with a heck of a lot of that. But her internalised “It isn’t an option even though I know I wouldn’t be using it for that” was because of internalised misogyny labelled as Christianity…
Seriously, as a Jew I don’t get this. The OT (i.e. my Bible) says that you shouldn’t judge a child for the parents’ sins and vice versa. So original sin seems a bit off to me anyway as a concept. But even if it were a thing I thought Christians believed that Jesus dying for mankind’s sins allowed for a fresh start so surely no more original sin?? Even if it took the Pope about 2000 years to say unbaptised babies who passed weren’t destined to spend eternity in Purgatory…)
oh right, i didn’t remember that freakass “answer in genesis” justification for cramps. thanks for the reminder
re: fundamentalists’ tenuous theological justifications for their oppressive values, i really like ContraPoints latest video called “The Hunger”. The first half is this amazing “socratic dialogue”/podcast show between a marxist feminist and a christian fundamentalist, both played by Natalie Wynn of course (the third Natalie, the host of the would-be podcast the other two are invited on, is a delightfully dumb “free-speech” libertarian and fascist-enabler).
I think leftist-Natalie’s comebacks to christian-dominionist-Natalie are absolutely on point. Like, she doesn’t engage in the substance of the tired playbook of semantic tricks of her christo-fascist interlocutor, just quickly rebuts or ridiculizes her framing of the issues.
it’s tangential to your comment, but i feel like… you’ll get why it made me think of that if you watch it? (or, if you’ve seen it, um, do you see what i mean?)
I’m not sure that’s “better” – really or ironically. Just a different shade of awful.
The idea of being accused of faking the pain because she really was a hussy who wanted birth control so she could have sex is horrific. The idea that the pain is deserved because of Eve is horrific two, but at least it’s not a personal accusation. This would likely to have been from a very young age too.
I really don’t think it’s appropriate to make a joke like that about someone elses child’s abuse, no matter how horrific the images you came up with are.
I think her comment about hypothetically hooking up with Sal strongly hints at that. “Maybe if I didn’t have to deal with any parts below the neck.”
(She did also once mention wanting to crawl into Jennifer’s cleavage, but honestly, that read as more “I want cuddles” than as evidence of sexual attraction, although people’s read on that one may differ.)
Generally, Joyce seems to have a very strong drive to form intense, emotionally intimate female friendships, and her admiration of Dorothy and Sal is pretty easy to read as some kind of crush, but we haven’t seen a lot that points to her being sexually attracted to to female-presenting bodies the way she definitely is to male-presenting bodies (notably Ethan, Jacob, and Joe, so I think we know what her type is).
Dotty loves her.
I doubt it’s romantic love, but I think of it like the friendship of Sir Ian and Patrick Stewart.
If they were both into each other that way, it wouldn’t change much.
Some people might be shocked or worried about all the hectic responses Joyce is giving. This lady, though. She’s all “Huh. Well, anyway…” I hope we see her again.
Yelling that just draws more attention to yourself, oh dear loll, if anyone else her age range even understands that term (unless most of indiana is as ‘christian’ as joyce used to be lol)
i think joyce has mentioned her grandma before , her parents probably wouldn’t have allowed visits growing up if she was a ‘heathen’/hussy/etc unless she’s a late in life lesbian or so
i mean if i was in a store and heard someone yell that i’d think “oh, ok.” and then go back to my browsing as opposed to someone seemingly tweaking/reacting to (illegal) drugs or just a bad trip, either way prolly needs some space
Jocelyn has specifically said she’s not gay, though! Maybe she’s Joyce’s other sibling we haven’t met and it turns out she’s trans as well. And ike, also from the future.
Taffy—I just realized you must have made the gravatar I swiped off you, since it has a different background from the comic. Please let me know if you’d like me to stop using it.
(I was so caught up in a world where I was able to change my Gravatar to a specific thing after a long and annoying half an hour of fussing around and then creating a WordPress account, that I didn’t think about the fact that you must have made that custom Gravatar in the first place. My bad.)
FINALLY, on this day i have finished reading Roomies!/Its Walky AND Shortpacked !!! and now going back to DoA i have to say …… I have to reread DoA now i don’t remember anything about it
I guess it’s character growth that Joyce would rather be thought of as married to (and presumably having sex with) a woman then be thought of as having unmarried straight sex.
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Joyce, Joyce, Joyce… don’t you know the surest way to get people to look at you is to shout, “NO DON’T LOOK AT ME GOODBYE!“??
don’t you think I don’t see your character progression anniversary banners, Willis
I’m amused that for the Ruth one, there seems to be a period of time from about 2017 through 2020 in which Ruth is uncharacteristically grumpy.
“Uncharacteristically”?
Compared to all the other headshots in the banner.
That one does kinda stand out, doesn’t it.
What stands out to me more is that Ruth’s hair started pink, went auburn briefly, and then returned to being pink.
Makes me anticipate what he has planned for the 25th anniversary 🤩
Series terminates like a popular show on Fox.
And the in-progress poster screenshots on Twitter (in glorious Camera-Pointed-at-the-Screen-O-Vision).
I like the how the Mike banner is ending with an empty space.
.. and the Ultra-Carla banner is great, too.
I got them all, hooray!!!! 🤩
Here’s my lovely collection of anniversary banners! 🥰
https://twitter.com/NGtheWelllerman/status/1567705392364535810
I had a lot of fun catching them all!!!
*plays “Pokemon Theme Song* on hacked muzak*
IGNORE ME!
Hey give her a break. She’s only been an atheist for what like, 6 months now?
3, tops.
She can be an atheist who is against premarital sex and strongly misogynist.
Plenty of assholes like that in the Skeptic movement!
Nothing skeptic about them, they have absolutely no doubts about how they’re right. (And probably right-wing.)
Thank you, I do not enjoy the label skeptic being applied to those people. Skepticism does not demand that one adhere to any given particular worldview, but you scratch the surface of any of those misogynists and you get a rant on “evolutionary biology” that is so unsupported by science or experimental design to be laughable.
Anyone who calls themselves a skeptic and then places “logic” above evidence is no such thing.
I shall instead apply the more generic term, “Jerkface.”
Thank you for the correction.
It is interesting how so many of those who call themselves “rational” or “skeptics” seem to fall back on the old pre-scientific method approach of building extended logic chains that are never checked against evidence.
Not surprising at all. After all, Christian Right wingers ignore anything Jesus said if it means they can be bigioted assholes.
It’s such a mind numbing thing, how many prominent atheists and skeptics flatly refuse to acknowledge the science on gender. My heart weeps.
“yeah, the things we do for love,” or “yeah, i guess you’re not a hussy,” or “yes”…?
Por que no los dos?
Still no name for her. That’s a shame she seems nice.
I vote for Coral
not-Carol
Maybe she can also be named Carol, but because of her friendly nature, everyone called her “Auntie”
Anti-Carol.
Comment plus plus!
Lina.
This *proves* that she’s actually Joyce from the future, because otherwise her name would be in the tags!
so you’re saying her name IS in the tags?
Personally, I am not convinced that “being a Lesbian” is better than “being a hussy” from a traditionally social conservative standpoint but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah, but Joyce spent a whole bunch of thought and energy untangling her cognitive dissonance around the first one and probably didn’t have room to deal with the second, haha
not to mention lots of “platonic” makeouts with becky that she didn’t entirely understand were makeouts in the before times xD
… What?
Becky kissed her once, and it… didn’t go well.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/jealous/
While they didn’t full-on kiss, IIRC joyce once mentioned that she’s pretty sure her sense of what close friends do with each other vis-à-vis physical intimacy may have been slightly warped by Becky’s
Perverse Sexual Lustlong-held torch for her.Probably things like sleepovers spent in close physical proximity (which is definitely not something I did with my teenage crush/first love that wasn’t returned except I did). Also possibly a level of emotional intimacy beyond what is considered socially “normal”.
Lots of hugs and “platonic” cuddles.
Exactly this is what I”m referring to.
So I went back and followed the link to the kiss, then the confession, then the reconciliation and then Dorothy, which if you read that you start to realize that this strip isn’t a throwaway line on her part. I think she legit has a thing for Joyce.
It’s really hard to interpret her face the panel before she jokes about Joyce cheating on her.
Shocked to find Joyce in bed with another girl? Or hurt?
I don’t think the conservative viewpoint matters to Joyce as much as her internalized sense of shame. To her being seen as a lesbian is better than being a hussy.
No, but it’s better according to the way Joyce’s mind currently works, even if she’s on some level aware that her stigma around sexuality is irrational.
To me it seems more like she knows she’s not a lesbian, so she’s secure enough not to care what others think, but her sexual feelings in framework of how she was raised, make her feel ashamed, like maybe she is a hussy, and maybe that’s bad. If I didn’t make it clear this is my take on how she feels, not me saying being a hussy is bad.
It’s probably not where Willis is going but being sex repulsed could also be something this Joyce has. She loves romance but has no interest, whatsoever, in the icky physical part.
I believe we’ve seen her have many sexual thoughts/fantasies (that were frequently, hilariously wrong in the details) and be intensely, immediately guilty about them.
Yup.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/04-of-mike-and-men/scrootoob/
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-8/03-faz-is-great/earlier/
And let’s not forget this early tidbit:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/06-strange-beerfellows/thing/
TW: Ol’ Gashface McConfetti makes an appearance in the following one.
If Ruth hadn’t already ‘told’ Joyce she couldn’t be Ace I’d wonder if she was aegosexual.
Not to mention that if sexualities are consistent across universes, she and Walky had a very vigorous and happy sex life over in the Walkyverse, once she got over her issues enough to for them to start it up.
Being ace is a sexuality, I’m not sure being sex repulsed is. Like how Jacob is straight in both universes, but isn’t a sex addict in this one. I’m not even sure her fantasies rule out this possibility.
(Over-sharing time: I’ve never had the opportunity to find out, because it would involve meeting people and talking to them and stuff, but I’m pretty sure I’d be at least a little grossed out if I were involved in actual real-world sex, and this has no effect on my fantasies, where I just decide nothing I’d react badly to ever happens.)
Willis has said that Carla won’t be in any slipshines because she wouldn’t be into them, so I think being sex repulsed carries over.
Good point! I’d almost forgotten there is a canonically sex-repulsed ace character in this cast. (Even though…she’s my gravatar…)
I’ve always understood sex-repulsion to be a subset of asexuality; some aces are, some aren’t. As an aro/ace myself I’m not really sure how to square the concept of sex-repulsion with allosexuality unless we’re talking about an aversion to sex stemming from sexual trauma maybe, and half the point of claiming asexuality as an identity is disassociating it from the idea that not experiencing sexual attraction or not wanting sex indicates that you have a problem. Trauma *is*, by definition, a problem (although how people handle their trauma is entirely their own business). But I may be out of my depth on this one, so I’ll stop here, except to say that evidence rather overwhelmingly points to this universe’s Joyce very badly wanting to have sex while being terrified at the idea of herself as a sexual person. I truly, genuinely do not think she is sex-repulsed. She’s frightened and ashamed about feeling sexual desire because she was raised in a cult that taught her to feel fear and shame about feeling sexual desire. If she didn’t desire sex, she’d probably feel a lot less intensely about all this.
(Also, we actually don’t know Jacob ISN’T a sex addict in this universe! I think it was heavily implied he and Raidah were not having sex, and that that was a deliberate choice. There’s a million reasons why that could be, and I’m not making any assumptions there, but just because we haven’t seen anything concretely suggesting that he is a sex addict doesn’t definitely prove it’s not something he’s ever struggled with in the past or will in the future.)
As someone else on the asexual spectrum, I would not say sex-repulsion is a subset of asexuality.
I would suggest it is a normal sexual mechanism where when you are NOT sexually attracted to someone, you may be actively repulsed or disinterested by the thought of sex with them. Just taken to a wider conclusion that many aces lack sexual attraction to everyone or with very limited exceptions, so aces trend towards repulsion or disinterest. And similarly, like some people can have a good time and enjoy sex with people they are not attracted to, some aces can also do that.
I think most people do experience repulsion/disinterest towards some people. It’s just not. Usually the same rule for everybody/almost everybody. Because people that can just feel sexual attraction at any time have different levels of it towards different people. Instead of the same level for most/all.
And like, honestly, Becky by all accounts, is probably a pretty good example of someone that is very likely repulsed by the thought of ever touching a man intimately. But is not ace and it isn’t the result of trauma. She just isn’t attracted to men.
Oh thank you, that is a helpful of framing it! Right, of course allosexuality is not synonymous with pansexuality.
I was thinking of sex-repulsion as sort of universal—“a hard no on all forms of sex with other people” (or even with oneself)—rather than something that could be broken down to “a hard no on sex with [X], but yes to sex with [Y].” Yeah, I can see it as situational and not specifically linked to asexuality, then.
I think it’s generally treated as universal, because the conditional version is so commonly assumed that it doesn’t stand out, so it only really gets noticed when sex repulsion shows up in ace people.
Like many straight men are repulsed by the thought of sex with other men, but not all. Some are not just attracted to men, but not repelled by the mechanics. We don’t think of that as a separate thing, just as part of being straight.
A lot of these things that usually come as a package actually do break down into separate traits.
I am a sex repulsed Ace and I would say that “Sex-repulsed” is not an orientation but rather a descriptor to clarify how open an Ace is to sexual acts.
Black Ace (Sex repulsed) may not be willing to perform sexual acts because they find it repulsive or displeasurable. Without the attraction and the emotions to get you into a black ace may just see sweaty with a bunch of gross body fluids and derive no pleasure. White Ace (Sex positive), though lacking feelings of sexual attraction, may find sex enjoyable and choose to participate in it whether that’s with a partner or on their own.
Keep in mind that Ace only describes a lack of feeling sexual attraction, not a person’s outlook on sex. You don’t have to be sexually attracted to participate or enjoy participating in sexual activities.
Given her dreams, I am 125% certain that Joyce is not sex repulsed on any level beyond an intellectual one.
Presumably she’s heard of known unknowns though?
i think the issue is ‘commitment’ versus one night stands/random hookups/basically how she viewed/treated Roz
yeah, that’s also how i read it
I read it as about sex. If she’s obviously in a relationship with a woman, then she’s clearly not getting birth control so she can have sex. She can be in a romantic relationship, but still not having sex until marriage.
Like Becky and Dina.
ah yes, like Becky and Dina
anyway yeah, you’re right, it’s probably both. then again she hasn’t particularly implied to to the pharmacist that she’s NOT fucking, just that, like, she’s super in this committed relationship, that happens to be gay, soooo that’s airtight, don’t look at me goodbye
Right but because it’s a gay relationship it obviously has nothing to do with the birth control.
for sure for sure.
Sometimes it is weird what you cling to when you go from being really religious to being an atheist. I didn’t eat pork or shellfish for years.
Hey, she made it longer than I worried she would.
I mostly joke.
But yes, please hear from the pharmacist what to do Dorothy. Joyce will need that info later.
Dorothy is going to spend the rest of her life helping Joyce and her wants/needs.
Yeah, they just as well get married.
*pulls more broken Muzak electronics out of where they’d been installed, then tosses them in the recyclables bin*
I hope you’re dealing appropriately with any e-waste.
[flips cassette on boombox] [hits play]
Is this going to be like the M*A*S*H episode No Sweat, where Klinger spends all night tearing the PA system apart and struggling to reassemble it?
Damn tubes.
Very TOTGA. Well, the one that ran away.
There goes our Comma Joyce Brown, off to HOPEFULLY take her meds.
Dorothy in the last panel concerns me; not concerned about her specifically but about her friendship with Joyce. She wouldn’t give up on Yale just to stay with Joyce, right?
**imitates Arin Hanson imitating Palatine**
**whispers in Dorothy’s ear**
“… do it.”
Now I have to rewatch that instead of going to sleep.
Why would you do this to me?
lol
I am only now seeing that Palpatine got autocorrected to Palatine.
As to your question Kyrik…
Because the Game Grumps live in my brain rent free.
And now they do yours as well.
**evil laughter**
Mickey Mouse.
(dies of laughter)
She’d never give up Yale. She’s wondering about how the polls would respond if offered Joyce as a potential first lady.
no prizes for guessing how the doa readership would vote on such a poll
I mean, maybe she should? It doesn’t seem like the school they’re at is disreputable or anything, just less academically rigorous than Yale, and we’ve already seen her struggle with keeping her grades up even though she currently has it under control. Also, she’s very specifically attempting to transfer for the purpose of furthering her extremely unlikely dream – I’m not saying that she would be a bad politician, but only a tiny percentage of talented politicians get to be president. There’s no reason Dorothy couldn’t go into politics after graduating here and, you know, figure out if that’s actually something she enjoys doing and all. At least here she has an established support circle, and Joyce’s weird lack of boundaries around her keeps her from being able to isolate herself to an extent that’s really bad for her, including academically.
(And I hate that I have to say this, but I would have the same opinion if Dorothy was a boy. Dorothy is like 18 or something and has no experience with her chosen field apart from maybe student government. The reality of this could be anything for her. If anything, I’d probably be harder on a hypothetical male Dorothy.)
One goes to Yale (et al) for connections, not academic rigor.
Willis could do a time skip where Dorothy goes to Yale and it is an utter disaster connection wise.
yes the presidential dream is a bit childish. she’s 19, it’s whatever. She should definitely still go to Yale, because she’s determined and passionate and i hope she listens to that. in time she’ll realize being where she can put her skills to good use matters more than reaching any one specific office, let alone the oval one. her motivations are values and belief in changing the system from the inside, way more than the spotlight or glory, so she’ll be fine.
I’m not saying that she would be a bad politician, but only a tiny percentage of talented politicians get to be president.
I was going to agree with this but say it’s like the lottery – only a tiny minority of lottery players win, but someone’s going to, and it’s as likely to be you as any of the others. And if you don’t enter, you definitely won’t win.
Then I realised that last bit is why “entering the lottery” is not equivalent to “being a talented politician” in this analogy…
“You can’t win if you don’t play – and playing doesn’t significantly increase your chances.”
It would be interesting to that dug into a bit more: does she have any interests or goals in politics beside being President. Is she more interested in a legislative seat or in being a governor?
Like even a really fast political ascent is likely to spend a lot of time doing other political work before becoming President – and no offense to Dorothy, I don’t think she’s got the raw charisma and political talent that propel someone to quick stardom – Obama being the biggest example of that. And even he spent 12 years in state and federal elected office before running for President.
That time/distance might seem forever at that age but no reason why they can’t keep in contact and reunite post graduation
Yes, but if Dorothy is at Yale then she can’t do things like take Joyce to get her eyes checked or pick up her prescriptions.
*shudder*. That’s probably healthy! Dorothy is a friend, not a personal assistant.
Agreed. My DH and I dated in high school and went to different colleges. The time apart, while miserable in some ways, cemented our relationship in others.
definitely nooo
God I hope not. Long distance relationship or bust.
last panel: either launching the ship, or Dorothy going “why am I putting up with this?”
I was thinking the latter, but apparently a lot of people thought the former? I hope they are right, for Joyce’s sake.
I thought the latter, myself. I feel like both Sarah and Dorothy have completely run out of patience for Joyce, recently.
I’m tempted to update my gravatar.
I have had that thought several times this week.
Ooooh, that’s a ‘reconsidering Yale’ face if I’ve ever seen one.
I thought it was a “reconsidering having Joyce as a friend” face.
Dorothy in that last panel is either “… yeah, huh, love. *Huh.*” or “yeah, Joyce is pretty annoying lately”, and the ambiguity over these day is starting to drive me nuts.
(Optional bonus “yeah, huh, Joyce really is infatuated with me and puts me on a pedestal and I only just realized it” option.)
Yeah all of these seem possible and concerning in their own special ways
‘(Optional bonus “yeah, huh, Joyce really is infatuated with me and puts me on a pedestal and I only just realized it” option.)’
I feel Dorothy has been more aware than that.
I thought the former, but in a big-sister sort of love. Whatever it is, I think Dorothy is surprised by how close she is with Joyce.
I didn’t catch the third option, but Joyce was REALLY complimentary in her descriptions of Dorothy.
I’M NOT SCARED! I AM NOT A HUSSY!
Anyone else think the pharmacist looks kinda like Joyce’s mom?
That was a running comment thread yesterday
Are we going to go through this whole mishegoss again when she gets a refill?
Guess they’ll have to date regularly so that future visits go smoothly.
At least that’s years away.
First we’ve got to get her to actually take the pills.
Joyce is really going to need time to adjust to her new reality. Hopefully she gets used to things.
It’s also possible that sex is mentally something she has no actual interest in. Demiace or Ace Romantic.
This Joyce, at least, is her own character.
Seriously, what in Joyce’s portrayal gives you the slightest hint in that direction? Joyce is sexually repressed and ashamed due to upbringing. That’s not at all the same as being ace.
I like Willis’ commitment to representation and his expansion of not particularly well-represented groups in his fiction. It’s something I really admire about him and have several ace friends who I think would love to see themselves in Joyce (sadly, we all come from repressive fundamentalist households).
Plus I’d like to see Dina and Joyce bond over some other things.
While I hear you on wanting representation, specifically ace rep, that is not who Joyce is, and taking her in that direction would require substantially rewriting massive swaths of her history *in this strip alone* and never mind all of Walkyverse’s fairly deep history regarding Joyce and sex.
And at the risk of treading into some murky and sensitive ground, Willis has explicitly said Joyce is autobiographical, and I’m pretty sure that extends to their own personal journey with regards to sex and sexual desire. I don’t think Willis writes Joyce as allosexual by default or for lack of an imagination on the topic; I think Joyce being allosexual is a huge and fundamental part of her character, and will continue to be a huge and important part of her arc in years to come. (And honestly, it’s *because* it’s so personally informed by authorial, experience that it’s this incredibly psychologically rich and nuanced subject in the comic, and I’m very interested in it despite never having experienced sexual attraction in my own life.)
And for the record, I am extremely ace, and I love to claim characters with undefined sexualities as ace whenever it’s plausible. But I don’t think it’s even a little bit plausible with Joyce, and it wouldn’t make her any more appealing to me. It would probably feel wrong to me, because that would be a character I wouldn’t recognize as Joyce—Joyce in name, but not in substance.
I was not really talking about that. I meant more her being free to actually take care of herself without having to worry about living up to her religiously imposed standards. That said, I feel the need to point out that she has repeatedly shown sexual interest in others, just usually with a heavy dose of repression.
We know from Joyce’s comic strip that Joyce has some (subconscious?) yearnings for Dorothy. How will Dotty react when those strips are published?
Dorothy has already seen the strips, and complained about them (“I’ve only slept with three people!”), so the only thing publication would change would be other people’s comments.
Oh. Thanks for clarifying!
My 15-year-old foster daughter came from an Assembly of God family. My then-wife was a lapsed Methodist, and I’m an atheist. Still, we let our foster daughter go to her prayer meetings and weekend retreats. She started having severe menstrual cramps in the summer, and her OB put her on a weak version of the pill, explaining the dose was NOT sufficient to act as birth control. When the cramps failed to subside, the OB upped her dose until she was on regular birth control. She’s 47, now. Two years ago, she confessed that she never had those severe cramps. A friend at a retreat told her how to get the pill without asking for birth control. Crazy thing is we’d offered to put her and my step-daughter on birth control three months before the fake cramps. She was afraid her birth parents would find out. That’s the same parents the state took her from because they believed beating her with a 2X4 was appropriate discipline for getting home an hour late from a prayer meeting.
Ugh.
I’m so sorry for her.
That’s horrible all around, bar you and her still having a good, supportive relationship (and her friends and her being able to talk about this stuff and access healthcare, and her particular sect not taking the attitude “you deserve it coz Eve had fruit and tempted Adam with it, even though Jesus died and wiped the slate clean you are chock full of original sin and deserve to suffer because of this” to cramps…)
oh wow. thanks for sharing, that does shed light on Joyce’s reaction.
I hadn’t even considered that in Joyce’s family environment she might have been accused of faking the cramps and was actually a “hussy”.. but of course she would be thinking that.
Milu, it’s “better” than that: she stated outright she was raised to believe that cramps were punishment for women due to Eve eating the apple. She thought she deserved to be in these levels of pain for the sin of being female. Interfering with that would interfere with the divine plan the terrifying “all-loving” divinity she was raised with had for her. (Near the start of this arc, her response to Jennifer telling her the Pill would help, followed by an “is what I would have said before I became an atheist…”)
Her current freakout is over other people judging her. She grew up with a heck of a lot of that. But her internalised “It isn’t an option even though I know I wouldn’t be using it for that” was because of internalised misogyny labelled as Christianity…
Seriously, as a Jew I don’t get this. The OT (i.e. my Bible) says that you shouldn’t judge a child for the parents’ sins and vice versa. So original sin seems a bit off to me anyway as a concept. But even if it were a thing I thought Christians believed that Jesus dying for mankind’s sins allowed for a fresh start so surely no more original sin?? Even if it took the Pope about 2000 years to say unbaptised babies who passed weren’t destined to spend eternity in Purgatory…)
As an agnostic I just don’t buy it either!
oh right, i didn’t remember that freakass “answer in genesis” justification for cramps. thanks for the reminder
re: fundamentalists’ tenuous theological justifications for their oppressive values, i really like ContraPoints latest video called “The Hunger”. The first half is this amazing “socratic dialogue”/podcast show between a marxist feminist and a christian fundamentalist, both played by Natalie Wynn of course (the third Natalie, the host of the would-be podcast the other two are invited on, is a delightfully dumb “free-speech” libertarian and fascist-enabler).
I think leftist-Natalie’s comebacks to christian-dominionist-Natalie are absolutely on point. Like, she doesn’t engage in the substance of the tired playbook of semantic tricks of her christo-fascist interlocutor, just quickly rebuts or ridiculizes her framing of the issues.
it’s tangential to your comment, but i feel like… you’ll get why it made me think of that if you watch it? (or, if you’ve seen it, um, do you see what i mean?)
anyway, it’s a masterpiece. it’s on youtube.
I’m not sure that’s “better” – really or ironically. Just a different shade of awful.
The idea of being accused of faking the pain because she really was a hussy who wanted birth control so she could have sex is horrific. The idea that the pain is deserved because of Eve is horrific two, but at least it’s not a personal accusation. This would likely to have been from a very young age too.
God that’s horrific. so sorry she had to go through that
I really don’t think it’s appropriate to make a joke like that about someone elses child’s abuse, no matter how horrific the images you came up with are.
Not an appropriate joke to make or appropriate questions to ask.
God that’s awful.
Maybe the thing to do was to send her to the counter by herself and have her read from a card.
Joyce is ridicuous, But Im giving her a pass as Dorothy literally asked for this.
& she is in a lot of pain,
…there is not a chance in Hell she’s straight, is there?
Joyce? Not a chance. Dorothy? Probably straight.
I think Joyce is biromantic but heterosexual.
Definitely an interesting possibility.
I think her comment about hypothetically hooking up with Sal strongly hints at that. “Maybe if I didn’t have to deal with any parts below the neck.”
(She did also once mention wanting to crawl into Jennifer’s cleavage, but honestly, that read as more “I want cuddles” than as evidence of sexual attraction, although people’s read on that one may differ.)
Generally, Joyce seems to have a very strong drive to form intense, emotionally intimate female friendships, and her admiration of Dorothy and Sal is pretty easy to read as some kind of crush, but we haven’t seen a lot that points to her being sexually attracted to to female-presenting bodies the way she definitely is to male-presenting bodies (notably Ethan, Jacob, and Joe, so I think we know what her type is).
Yeah the “safe and warm forever” part of the Jennifer’s cleavage scene really didn’t read as sexual to me either.
Dorothy described herself as a “kinsey zero”, but who knows.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/03-the-butterflies-fly-away/kinsey/
A zero at best estimate. But that could change.
Love the site banners. Cheers to a wonderful anniversary.
Dotty loves her.
I doubt it’s romantic love, but I think of it like the friendship of Sir Ian and Patrick Stewart.
If they were both into each other that way, it wouldn’t change much.
NEW FEELINGS AWAKENING IN DOTTY
WHAT… WOULD SYLVIA PLATH DO?
PROBABLY WRITE A POEM WITH LOTS OF METAPHORS FOR HOW WEIRD AND ANNOYING BUT ALSO CUTE JOYCE IS
WHAT… WOULD AOC DO?
That’s some epiphany lighting right there.
Some people might be shocked or worried about all the hectic responses Joyce is giving. This lady, though. She’s all “Huh. Well, anyway…” I hope we see her again.
I really hope she’s somehow Joyce’s grandmother.
This lady is a college pharmacist in Indiana, this may very well be a weekly occurrence to her.
Yelling that just draws more attention to yourself, oh dear loll, if anyone else her age range even understands that term (unless most of indiana is as ‘christian’ as joyce used to be lol)
Any thoughts that she’s possibly Carol’s lesbian mother?
If her mother were to announce she is a lesbian, I feel like Carol woukd cut contact with her.
i think joyce has mentioned her grandma before , her parents probably wouldn’t have allowed visits growing up if she was a ‘heathen’/hussy/etc unless she’s a late in life lesbian or so
True but a lot of families have a pair of grandmothers if they’re lucky.
Either mother or sister, I’m thinking.
You picked Speaking Loudly.
It is the opposite of Keeping A Low Profile.
i mean if i was in a store and heard someone yell that i’d think “oh, ok.” and then go back to my browsing as opposed to someone seemingly tweaking/reacting to (illegal) drugs or just a bad trip, either way prolly needs some space
Talk, talk, talk, is fun. Yes?
WITH CAT-LIKE TREAD
UPON OUR PREY WE STEAL
IN SILENCE DREAD
OUR CAUTIOUS WAY WE FEEL
NO SOUND AT ALL
WE NEVER SPEAK A WORD
A FLY’S FOOTFALL WOULD BE
DISTINCTLY HEARD!
[Looks at Joyce disappearing into the distance.]
Hussy Away
Variations on a theme: the untagged nice lady is Jocelyn from the future.
Jocelyn has specifically said she’s not gay, though! Maybe she’s Joyce’s other sibling we haven’t met and it turns out she’s trans as well. And ike, also from the future.
*And like
There is no one named Ike here, from the future or otherwise.
No holding hands after all *disappointed*
Regular disappointed or Evil Hercules disappointed?
Thanks. Googled “Evil Hercules disappointed” and watched a cringe movie scene.
If I had a nickle for every best friend Joyce has turned gay, I’d have two nickles. Which isn’t a lot, but it’s odd it happened twice.
To be fair it would a nickle and a half since Dotty would be Bi.
I might be reading into things but Dorothy’s ok with the pharmacist thinking shes Joyce’s girlfriend?
I mean, that was the plan. Dorothy’s concerned about Joyce, not what the pharmacist thinks.
I mean, why would she care? Not like the Pharmacist thinking she likes ladies impacts her life in any way.
Yeah? Joyce said so last strip, so the pharmacist is just believing her.
The Take your prescription and run away Joyce is the best Joyce!!! Dorothy is always amazed of her. Living with Joyce will be so interesting!
Joe, now Joyce, have run away so fast that not even panels can hold them. Am I missing anyone else?
nailed it
Panel two might be my favorite Joyce image ever.
I would love that as a gravatar!
It does make for a pretty good one.
Wildly jealous!
Rolling…
Rolling again…
Testing…
Testing again…
I see you rolling…
Taffy—I just realized you must have made the gravatar I swiped off you, since it has a different background from the comic. Please let me know if you’d like me to stop using it.
(I was so caught up in a world where I was able to change my Gravatar to a specific thing after a long and annoying half an hour of fussing around and then creating a WordPress account, that I didn’t think about the fact that you must have made that custom Gravatar in the first place. My bad.)
FINALLY, on this day i have finished reading Roomies!/Its Walky AND Shortpacked !!! and now going back to DoA i have to say …… I have to reread DoA now i don’t remember anything about it
Oh. Next vacation, I’ll try to. Have to read DoA entirely, because I got interested in the history.
Well, at least Joyce got the medicine she needs. Hopefully she reads the directions properly before taking it.
I can’t tell if the biggest plot twist would be these two ending up together or NOT ending up together
FUCK YEAH LESLIE BANNER
INCLUDING THAT PANEL FROM THE HEAD ALIEN II FIGHT LET’S GOOOOOO
I guess it’s character growth that Joyce would rather be thought of as married to (and presumably having sex with) a woman then be thought of as having unmarried straight sex.
Still pretty odd though.
Who said anything about marriage?