genuinely very interested in the reasoning for this musical selection today, but also my entire life was saved by this game so ultimately either way good choice
I think growth also doesn’t always mean changing your opinions. Sometimes it means still making the same decisions… but you’re just more informed about them rather than blind faith.
True, and that is something that Joyce apparently does not know.
In fact, that would be an interesting development for her, that is, progress does not mean changing your mind and it is something that Joyce must also understand.
That’s true, but it depends on what it is you’ve got to change your mind about.
And in this context, I don’t really see how growing without changing opinions applies. She’s talking about Tristan not growing out of bigotry and conspiracy theory. What’s a meaningful sense growth through deeper more informed understanding that still leaves you with “stop redefining women” and “vaccines are a globalist …”?
Some people also don’t grow like a flower where all growth is positive progress, some people grow like a root or like a potato or like twisted tree branches. Growth isn’t always in a positive direction, sometimes people go sideways (Jennifer not drinking but having 99% of the same problems because her inner self is still not significantly different) or they only get worse or they grow fine for a while and then they clog someone’s water pipes or they have a lot more conflicting life experiences rather than learning and growing being a linear experience.
I feel like you’re insulting roots and potatoes now.
And Jennifer doesn’t feel better without alcohol, because alcohol itself was never the underlying problem, just an attempt at self-medication. You can tell someone to stop putting bandaids on a broken leg, but them not putting bandaids on the broken leg does not mean the leg is now not broken.
Roots aren’t inherently bad in said example, so much as they are an example that you can grow fine but still make errors i.e. growing into a water pipe can cause problems for others
Potatoes also aren’t inherently good or bad. There is nothing wrong with a good potato staying exactly as it is, and producing other good potatoes. It’s just also possible for fungus infested potatoes to do the same and ruin the good potatoes if they reach them.
And yes, that’s pretty much my point is saying Jennifer went sideways – she technically made a noticeable change in dropping the alcohol, so there is technically A difference. But the core issues are still the same.
I haven’t really ‘assigned’ a negative growth direction or an inherent negativity to any parts of a plant because all parts of a plant are good. If I had to, I’d say that’s more getting infected by fungus because it ruins the growth process and taints it entirely.
Sarah: “I will send you to Jesus!”, while holding a slipper in a threatening manner.
Joyce: “I no longer believe in Jesus so you’re sending me nowhere!”
*This seemed funnier before I started typing, but I’m gonna post it anyway.*
I only discovered it after like the third time he found a new deep end to jump off of, and then only through the once-official subreddit which is literally just a snark feed/support group for erstwhile fans now. Tats is out there collecting new flavors of brainworm like they’re going to power his Infinity Gauntlet.
But there are comic edits that turn it wholesome and funny. Well, until Sinfest got so banally boring, that none of the edgy Nazi shit shocked anyone anymore.
And if anyone wants to go down the rabbit hole and read it, please use /r/Sinfest. We don’t want to give Tats any views or traffic and this is the best solution. It posts his comics regularly.
Odds’re high the bigotry was already there. Attitudes like that seldom manifest spontaneously in (young) adulthood – even when religious fervor/conviction develops later on, it doesn’t generally cause corollary prejudices so much as dovetail with/excuse the ones a person already had.
shame when ppl get ‘worse’, assuming tristan’s not doing it for show/to grift
at least sarah’s grown to the point where she can admit she cares about/is friends with joyce, but even ppl twice sarah’s age still has relationship hangups
I think Tristan sincerely wants to be a better Christian, but he’s received a twisted notion of what that means and keeps trying harder because deep down it’s not working. He wouldn’t be the first; he won’t be the last.
While Joyce has, I think, asked herself what it means to be a better person, and as a result is becoming in some respects a better Christian than many who proudly wear the label.
This reminds me of something my brother once said to me. Because I’m the, you know, queer trans apostate (Willis gets a little too close to my own life sometimes, like today, which is almost word for word a conversation I had with my own therapist), and he’s still Baptist. But – he was trying to tell me that he was a better person than me. Except that, aside from not believing in God anymore, I still live pretty godly. And he was, at the time, on his 3rd wife after cheating on the first one with the second and trust me, was not the only way he was…not a good Christian. But he somehow totally believes that he’s a better person than me because he believes in God and I don’t.
It’s amazing how there are multiple bits in the Bible where Jesus is all “empty worship does nothing, it’s your actions that count” and multiple Christians just ignore that. But then he was also pretty clear on rich people having trouble getting in to heaven and yet prosperity churches are a thing so…
I think Sarah’s also aware that growth involves being painfully honest with herself, exposing vulnerabilities to others, the potential for ridicule… Sarah wants growth, and sees how it is a good thing. There are times that she is aware that she is making herself actively miserable (see e.g. yelling “thank you” at Lucy for having a polite conversation in a semi-friendly capacity, and in fact most of her interactions with whatshisface – not Jason but also begins with J and his brother is probably Jameson and a tiny character but Carla’s lawyer…)
Sarah sees Joyce strength and courage in striving constantly for growth and betterment. Recognising that in her is something she and Joe have in common.
Kind of Walky? In the sense that she’s realizing her self-conception of what she is capable of is crumbling and she’s feeling like giving up and hiding.
I don’t know if Sarah was trying to grow when she tried to help Dana (I assume this is what you’re referring to). But it is definitely good to remind ourselves that Sarah was bullied for her actions, and also that Raidah is still trying to form her own Legion of Doom to hurt Sarah and her friends. That’s a tough environment to grow in even without all the trauma Sarah and her friend group have gone through. I can understand why a person might become more and more cynical and abrasive in these circumstances.
Mike was trying to change, but that made him difficult to write, because if he succeeded then he would stop being Mike. Oops, getting Doylian. The strip outgrew Mike, but he served a final function, to show that death is the only thing that eliminates the possibility of growth.
They can. That does happen. Some people do just harden their positions, reject friends or family that come out to them.
But, personally knowing queer people is still the primary driver of people’s attitudes changing. Not everyone as quickly as Joyce, but it’s still the biggest way.
That’s a good question, Joyce, but consider this: What kind of school is Tristan going to? A secular university like you or a religion-based school that would reinforce his beliefs?
Mary already knew that gay people existed, she was just against them. Joyce and Tristan grew up in a very sheltered environment. Joyce is changing precisely because she is learning more about the world.
Actually it’s a question of how sheltered Tristan was. Obviously they both grew up in a culty evangelical church, and Joyce definitely was sheltered; but in my experience some parents give their kids more leeway than others. I think it’s very possible that Tristan, being a boy, is afforded more privilege than Joyce could ever dream of having in that church and therefore has no reason to look beyond the borders of the church.
It’s not necessarily determinative, but it’s very likely a factor.
Remember, her parents partly let Joyce out into the big secular university because they thought they’d raised her well enough to resist. The best socialized of their home school group, according to their pastor.
If Tristan had let slip ideas like “who cares what’s in the Bible”, they wouldn’t have trusted him enough.
He’s probably at Anderson.:) Which also isn’t a guarantee — see Becky.
I don’t think we know that Tristan was homeschooled. And it doesn’t take going to a Christian college for someone who was raised Christian, but wasn’t terribly devout, to make that their identity and dive deep into devotion. Campus Crusade for Christ was at my secular university, looking to recruit that kind of person. They feel alone, away from family and friends, and a group that makes them feel like they belong tell them that sense of belonging is the Holy Spirit. That’s why there’s people who were already Christian who have “Born Again” testimonies.
There’s also the fact that this is just Tristan’s social media connected to his real name. That’s not always the best indicators of someone real ideals. He might be going through his own growth that he isn’t financially or socially secure enough to show anywhere his parents could see it.
Another is that these public Facebook posts are purely performative, and indicate nothing whatsoever about his actual convictions. The intended audience could be family or peers he doesn’t feel able to be genuine around, or marks he is helping to fleece, if he’s become affiliated with a certain kind of evangelism.
People get older and often entrenched in and committed to the views of the society they depend on in life. Could be via religion, some brand of politics, or even something about thetans. If they burn the bridges they rely on, they are stuck on an island. So whether you are in a church, a college, a union, a clique on Twitter, there can be serious pressure to conform. And when the pressure is already there, the path of least resistance emotionally is to assume it all must be true and blindly internalize it… Integrity and critical thinking are harder, and potentially more painful.
I mean, even apart from the “wanting to grow” thing, it probably depends on what kind of environment Tristan has been in– i.e. what college. Which AFAIK hasn’t been stated, but it’s presumably not IU given that Joyce was excited to see him again when she and Becky went home after The Toedad Incident. I doubt Tristan would get a great understanding of gay people in, say, Anderson.
Yeah, we who live in individualistic societies tend to forget that like 50% of you is made up of your environment. And the other 50% is mostly your memories of previous experiences, i.e. past environments. We are our environments in a very real sense, much more than we are agents (= decision makers).
well, atl east charlie is good for her as long as she doesn’t accidentally encourage her overconfident side , not that you should depend on a relationship to ‘change you’ but hopefully most ppl would be better after a relationship even if it’s just emporarily
Nah, you can TOTALLY improve on perfection! The Carla of today is obviously even better than the Carla of yesterday, because Carla always improves and never gets worse. Everyone else, of course, is still stuck in their sad, non-Carla lives, but really, who cares about them?
Wanting to grow and wanting to put in the work on specific ways can be two different things. I think Sarah wants both but I dunno if she’s willing to pursue it and I’m sure being held hostage hasn’t made her MORE willing to drop that crusty shell.
From the way she gave the answer, it is clear that she is aware of this.
I don’t know, maybe I’m seeing too much, but the way Joyce asks the question, although she doesn’t seek any kind of serious intention, shows a certain malice.
Certainly she knows the answer already, but I don’t think her intention is to hurt Sarah. It’s one of those times where you point out the hard truth because you’re trying to help someone.
a full on change to where she actively acted more like, say, lucy would feel too uncanny versus her being ‘grumpy’ and occasionally helpful/kind to ppl but i can’t imagine her going out of her way to help someone unprompted
She’s gone out of her way to help people several times. Granted, it was usually the big gesture type but she has gone out of her way for people before. Heck, that’s what she did with Dana – if she just wanted her gone she’d have told the school ‘Yeah, my roommate is getting baked every single night and our room reeks of weed now’ and let her get expelled or arrested instead of trying to get her dad to help her. Now depending whether or not her dad’s a dick, that might have backfired but she was trying to help her.
Sometimes Joyce people want to do something but are also incredibly afraid of doing it. A position I think you were in for a while regarding your religion.
is it rly hate sex if he and asher don’t hate each other versus asher cheating(?) outta spite ( assuming he hasn’t texted or told jen to her face ‘we’re done’)
What I think Joyce doesn’t totally get is that what she did is incredibly difficult. That might be obscured by the fact that both she and Becky made it out. But for every Joyce or Becky, there are probably hundreds of others.
Oh geez sorry Joyce, not everyone has the opportunity to have a full blown episode of a closeted lesbian with a crisis of faith. please check your privileges before you judge others. In another universe, Becky would have written these posts if she hadn’t been caught at the boarding school
I think Joyce just wants Sarah to let down her walls a bit more. They had a conversation like that aaages ago where Sarah got defensive and brought up attacking Ryan with a bat as proof she cares about Joyce and Joyce brings up how it can be hard to feel that love when it’s only massive gestures an never little things. This, along with many people noticing that after the winter timeskip, that Sarah has seemed to get even more cantankerous and abrasive (which could be a trauma response to being kidnapped and watching a man get his skull caved in) it could be thar Joyce at least wants to see Sarah loosen up and be happy. Or something.
I think deep down Sarah does want to grow, she’s also just cynical enough to know how hard it is and so has been avoiding it. When you’ve been in survival mode for so long to protect yourself, being vulnerable again feels like a mistake.
At least some part of Sarah is a sweetheart who is willing to make hard choices for her friends. Letting that part out again is so scary when people you trusted have turned on you and used everything you shared to wound you.
It feels like handing out active ammunition.
She does everything she can to squash and hide that part of herself, even just…not…doing that would be a huge step.
It’s hilarious to see how many people have just flipped the script and went from hating Sarah to defending her as if Joyce is saying something we haven’t all thought for at least a year.
Look, growth is tough. But Sarah is vocally, stubbornly resistant to anything that remotely challenges her authority or way of doing things.
She’s able to do this because she’s a sophomore living with freshmen and pretends that this makes her world-weary.
Honestly, that does that sound like someone who’s trying to grow up and change in any way?
Joyce hit the nail on the head with Sarah. Doesn’t matter how or why she was swinging the hammer.
I mean, Sarah just said something really nice to Joyce, and she flipped it back and made it kind of an attack on Sarah. It’s an odd social interaction.
I’ll push back on one thing: Sarah isn’t pretending to be world weary. She got bullied for a semester, Joyce got drugged, her friends have been physically attacked, and Sarah herself was kidnapped. Any one of those things could understandably push someone towards cynicism, abrasiveness, and world-weariness. Oh, and Raidah is still actively scheming against her; I’m sure that’s good for Sarah’s mental health.
Sarah isn’t hanging out with underclassmen because it gives her authority, she’s doing it because she was bullied and cut off from her social circle and doesn’t have any other friends. Like, please remember that Sarah literally got bullied by Raidah and her crew at the mall. At the mall. Raidah tried to sabotage her new friendships at the mall.
Granted, she’s also hanging out with underclassmen because Joyce was unrelentingly friendly, and Sarah likes her and wanted to help and protect her.
There are definitely reasons she does so, but some of it is also performative. Never letting down the “grumpy misanthrope” persona, except for a few private moments with Joyce, isn’t really what she wants, but if she does start letting it down for others, then maybe they’ll betray her in the worst case or maybe they just won’t let her retreat when she needs to.
And of course, pushing people away makes it easier for Raidah to keep her cut off.
I don’t know if that’s fair, saying that people flipped their stance, unless you’ve actually looked at who’s been saying what to check for consistency (though even then, yknow, change)… there are a lot of commentors, so it could easily be different people voicing these opinions.
If it’s just the overall tone in response you’re comparing, well, people often comment more when they have something to argue, so that could be a factor too.
I never expected Joyce to ask Sarah a question like that. She too sees the limits of that behaviour and how it is hurting Sarah first. After Lucy’s “J’accuse”, her chicken out and running away from Jacob and this observation from Joce, it would be time for Sarah to examine her conscience and perhaps try to do something for change the worst parts of herself.
It’s OK to feel some satisfaction when you’ve grown. Like, don’t be smug about it but when you climb the hill, turn around and look. Be there for others on the trail.
True in theory, but in context, it’s pretty hard to talk about “stop redefining women” and “vaccines are a globalist …” as growth. This isn’t a neutral thing.
Would be very different if Tristan had gotten more Jesusy, but without the bigoted/conspiracy theory elements.
Time for this (retired) librarian to recommend a book.
Mistakes Were Made (but Not by Me) is a 2007 non-fiction book by social psychologists Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson. It deals with cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias, and other cognitive biases, using these psychological theories to illustrate how the perpetrators (and victims) of hurtful acts justify and rationalize their behavior. It describes a positive feedback loop of action and self-deception by which slight differences between people’s attitudes become polarized.
I think Sarah does want to grow, and makes effort, but what she’s having trouble with is something that comes naturally to Joyce. This confrontation feels a little like Jacob’s “have you tried not being an introvert” attitude. Sarah does try to be more outgoing, and caring, and she gets stung by it.
It’s not like a mac and cheese dinner could have fixed her entire social circle vilifying her for getting Dana the help they didn’t think she needed.
On the other hand, the dynamic between Joyce and Sarah is sounder than with Jacob, that she could feel safe talking about it.
But also, I can’t help remember another friend who isn’t trying to grow, that she and Joyce both think doesn’t need to grow, and is struggling immensely right now because of it.
The thing is that Sarah doesn’t need to be more outgoing, she needs to be more forgiving of herself. She needs the courage to admit that something isn’t working without thowing up walls and doubling down. I’m not even sure if she’s honest with herself about what she truely wants. At the moment it seems like she’s just happy to outsource happiness to Joyce.
They’re tied together. She’s prickly instead of friendly because she doesn’t like herself. She doesn’t like herself as a consequence of being repeatedly told she’s a terrible person when she makes connections or tries to make connections.
I was in an evangelical church, so there was always a big emphasis on spreading the word. I frequently had fellow church members asking why I was spending so much of my time around non-Christians.
As such, I’m not surprised that they haven’t talked with enough non-Christians to understand how wrong their world view is. I am wondering exactly who it is that they’re attempting to spread the word to.
Actually, I lie, I know exactly who they’re trying to spread the word to. Each other. Gotta keep everyone in the cult in the cult. No, don’t call it that, it’s not a cult. We just look like and act like a cult in basically every way, but we were established over 100 years ago so not a cult.
Although, that said, I didn’t decide that they were basically wrong in every meaningful way based on talking with Christians. I was able to figure that out entirely through inconsistencies in their own beliefs and actions. Clearly, none of them actually believed or understood what it was they believed. I cannot tell which of those two were the issue, but at least one of them was the issue with every single one of them.
One of the standard cult tricks is to push members to take every interaction with non-members as a chance to try to convert them. It very rarely works, but it does tend to piss off the non-members, which makes the members interactions with them unpleasant, so they fall back on only associating with people in the cult.
It only really happens that way if members are incompetent at it. Logically one cannot convert if one doesn’t understand the religion, and they won’t understand the religion if they’re just told “Jesus died for your sins, convert!”. To the best of my recollection, that’s literally something I heard someone say. Now, they were trying to convert another member of the church, so it was fine. But I seemed to be the only one there who had any awareness of how bad that was. I was a child, and there were half a dozen adults present, as well as a lot of kids who were older than me.
To be clear, I’m not arguing with you. I’m arguing with the sanity of the practice. Though it was recognizing that insanity that led me to understand they were a cult, regardless of how long ago they were established.
I recently wrote a short story called The Bronze Garden, which I’m still trying to figure out myself. Bronze is as close to an imperishable thing as we can have in this universe, you understand. A man made substance that is more atomically stable than pure gold. But it’s made by our hands and it doesn’t grow. It doesn’t change.
When confronted with things that challenge the worldview you’ve held for years, people tend to react in two ways:
1) Realize that your worldview may have been flawed. Take the new fact and experiences and integrate them into your view, changing the parts of it that no longer seem correct. You may even feel a need to examine your views and see what parts you believe yourself and what parts you’ve just been TOLD you believe.
2) Reject the new experience and burrow further into that worldview. Reject anything that challenges it. Vilify it, even. And surround yourself with people that share and/or support your worldview. (In order to keep these people around you, you may end up adopting some of THEIR views as well, adding them to your own. This is one way people fall into extremism)
This might just be me, but I think that Joyce might have an unrealistic view of what everyone’s experience was when leaving home for college. It’s not exactly typical for your best friend to show up, try to make out with you, hide in your room as a homeless kid, suddenly get kidnapped, chase the kidnapper on a high speed chase aided by a superhero, later have the church to pay the bond of the kidnapper you chased after on a motorcycle, who then teams up with the local supervillain in order to kidnap your entire friend group, all in an effort to get two kids to stop going to college and go home and maybe date a boy.
Those kinds of things TYPICALLY shove you a little out of your comfort zone. We don’t often step out of our comfort zones.
I mean, hell. In my first semester of college, I bought a PS2 and played a whole lot of Final Fantasy X.
Loading ...
*plays “Soft Light’ from Super Paper Mario Soundtrack on hacked muzak*
genuinely very interested in the reasoning for this musical selection today, but also my entire life was saved by this game so ultimately either way good choice
Your life was saved by the game? Please do tell if that’s alright, I’m interested ^^
I chose this one because in the game it indicates an important character development or other heartfelt story moment.
“I mean, if you’re asking if I want to grow TOMATOES, then SURE”
well, if sarah got super into gardening/farming might be less of a hassle/headache than bothering with relationships lol
Sarah for the next Gundam protagonist?
Aww, Joyce. It’s okay. Some people meet new people and get more progressive, and sometimes people get even more entrenched into who they are.
And Joyce, regarding what you’re saying to Sarah, I get that entirely.
I think growth also doesn’t always mean changing your opinions. Sometimes it means still making the same decisions… but you’re just more informed about them rather than blind faith.
True, and that is something that Joyce apparently does not know.
In fact, that would be an interesting development for her, that is, progress does not mean changing your mind and it is something that Joyce must also understand.
I am totally here for conspiracy theory Joyce!
That’s true, but it depends on what it is you’ve got to change your mind about.
And in this context, I don’t really see how growing without changing opinions applies. She’s talking about Tristan not growing out of bigotry and conspiracy theory. What’s a meaningful sense growth through deeper more informed understanding that still leaves you with “stop redefining women” and “vaccines are a globalist …”?
Some people also don’t grow like a flower where all growth is positive progress, some people grow like a root or like a potato or like twisted tree branches. Growth isn’t always in a positive direction, sometimes people go sideways (Jennifer not drinking but having 99% of the same problems because her inner self is still not significantly different) or they only get worse or they grow fine for a while and then they clog someone’s water pipes or they have a lot more conflicting life experiences rather than learning and growing being a linear experience.
Hey, that’s a good example.
I feel like you’re insulting roots and potatoes now.
And Jennifer doesn’t feel better without alcohol, because alcohol itself was never the underlying problem, just an attempt at self-medication. You can tell someone to stop putting bandaids on a broken leg, but them not putting bandaids on the broken leg does not mean the leg is now not broken.
Really, I’d be more inclined to say Tristan seems to have grown like a tumor. Started out fairly innocuous, but now…
Roots aren’t inherently bad in said example, so much as they are an example that you can grow fine but still make errors i.e. growing into a water pipe can cause problems for others
Potatoes also aren’t inherently good or bad. There is nothing wrong with a good potato staying exactly as it is, and producing other good potatoes. It’s just also possible for fungus infested potatoes to do the same and ruin the good potatoes if they reach them.
And yes, that’s pretty much my point is saying Jennifer went sideways – she technically made a noticeable change in dropping the alcohol, so there is technically A difference. But the core issues are still the same.
I haven’t really ‘assigned’ a negative growth direction or an inherent negativity to any parts of a plant because all parts of a plant are good. If I had to, I’d say that’s more getting infected by fungus because it ruins the growth process and taints it entirely.
Dina would prefer it if Sarah’s growth trajectory leads to her becoming a tri-Sarah-tops.
Or, given Dina’s publicly stated proclivities, tri-Sarah-bottoms.
Sarah would probably enjoy tri-bottoming, given the right partners.
oooooooooooooooo [points madly] OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH
Growing like physically? Cause Sarah’s already pretty tall.
who would’ve known that spite/bitterness leads to being tallerl ol
If shorter people are closer to Hell, are taller people closer to the wrath of God?
EMOTIONAL DAMAGE!
Sarah: “I will send you to Jesus!”, while holding a slipper in a threatening manner.
Joyce: “I no longer believe in Jesus so you’re sending me nowhere!”
*This seemed funnier before I started typing, but I’m gonna post it anyway.*
*None of us have ever done the same.
Nope, it’s funny 😁
Sarah at least realizes she should want to grow, which is more than someone like Tristan will figure out.
Tristan grew.
He grew into a bigot.
Sorta like that one cartoonist who grew out of toxic dudebro humor, only to grow into incoherent ramblings about trans people and Jews.
Something tells me you’re talking about Doonsbury, but I’m not entirely certain…
Sinfest, probably. I’ve never heard anything like that about Doonesbury. Which if anything started as 1960s hippie humor.
Yeah, that’s absolutely Sinfest.
no idea how Doonesbury would fit.
I only discovered it after like the third time he found a new deep end to jump off of, and then only through the once-official subreddit which is literally just a snark feed/support group for erstwhile fans now. Tats is out there collecting new flavors of brainworm like they’re going to power his Infinity Gauntlet.
But there are comic edits that turn it wholesome and funny. Well, until Sinfest got so banally boring, that none of the edgy Nazi shit shocked anyone anymore.
And if anyone wants to go down the rabbit hole and read it, please use /r/Sinfest. We don’t want to give Tats any views or traffic and this is the best solution. It posts his comics regularly.
Could be Scott Adams.
I think the only cartoonist affected by the 9/11 bug that got better was Frank Miller, who at least had the decency to apologize for Holy Terror.
Not Doonesbury. As far as I know, Garry Trudeau is still cool.
And he can grow further. Into a bigger bigot.
Odds’re high the bigotry was already there. Attitudes like that seldom manifest spontaneously in (young) adulthood – even when religious fervor/conviction develops later on, it doesn’t generally cause corollary prejudices so much as dovetail with/excuse the ones a person already had.
shame when ppl get ‘worse’, assuming tristan’s not doing it for show/to grift
at least sarah’s grown to the point where she can admit she cares about/is friends with joyce, but even ppl twice sarah’s age still has relationship hangups
I think Tristan sincerely wants to be a better Christian, but he’s received a twisted notion of what that means and keeps trying harder because deep down it’s not working. He wouldn’t be the first; he won’t be the last.
While Joyce has, I think, asked herself what it means to be a better person, and as a result is becoming in some respects a better Christian than many who proudly wear the label.
This reminds me of something my brother once said to me. Because I’m the, you know, queer trans apostate (Willis gets a little too close to my own life sometimes, like today, which is almost word for word a conversation I had with my own therapist), and he’s still Baptist. But – he was trying to tell me that he was a better person than me. Except that, aside from not believing in God anymore, I still live pretty godly. And he was, at the time, on his 3rd wife after cheating on the first one with the second and trust me, was not the only way he was…not a good Christian. But he somehow totally believes that he’s a better person than me because he believes in God and I don’t.
It’s amazing how there are multiple bits in the Bible where Jesus is all “empty worship does nothing, it’s your actions that count” and multiple Christians just ignore that. But then he was also pretty clear on rich people having trouble getting in to heaven and yet prosperity churches are a thing so…
I’m quite sure Tristan is doing it as a grift, the example posts sound exactly like christinfluencing.
I think Sarah’s also aware that growth involves being painfully honest with herself, exposing vulnerabilities to others, the potential for ridicule… Sarah wants growth, and sees how it is a good thing. There are times that she is aware that she is making herself actively miserable (see e.g. yelling “thank you” at Lucy for having a polite conversation in a semi-friendly capacity, and in fact most of her interactions with whatshisface – not Jason but also begins with J and his brother is probably Jameson and a tiny character but Carla’s lawyer…)
Sarah sees Joyce strength and courage in striving constantly for growth and betterment. Recognising that in her is something she and Joe have in common.
The name is Jacob.
SAY HIS NAME
Joyce is in her Dorothy Era. I genuinely love that for her.
If Joyce is the new Dorothy then what is Dorothy?
Kind of Walky? In the sense that she’s realizing her self-conception of what she is capable of is crumbling and she’s feeling like giving up and hiding.
Its not like someone is constantly reminding her of a time she tried to grow and help someone else by shaming her for it
I don’t know if Sarah was trying to grow when she tried to help Dana (I assume this is what you’re referring to). But it is definitely good to remind ourselves that Sarah was bullied for her actions, and also that Raidah is still trying to form her own Legion of Doom to hurt Sarah and her friends. That’s a tough environment to grow in even without all the trauma Sarah and her friend group have gone through. I can understand why a person might become more and more cynical and abrasive in these circumstances.
+1
I genuinely hope someone calls Dana to visit and she says that Sarah saved her by calling her family. Rub it in raidahs face, closure for sarah.
Little sister with the armor-piercing question/observation.
The trouble with teaching moments is that sometimes they’re potential learning moments instead.
Is that a trouble, or just additional unexpected benefit?
PERCEIVED
TBF, the only cast member who’s grown less than Sarah would be… Mike.
Ok, yeah, Ethan. And, holy shit, Jennifer; right. Ugh, Malaya, Christ what a mess. Oh duh, of course, Raidah and her contingent.
Alright FINE. MOST of the cast has grown less than or equal to Sarah’s rate
Sheesh, try to tell a friggin joke, I unno…
*stomps off and slams the door*
Well, this is DUMBING OF AGE, there’s a reason it’s in capital letters, plus Joyce is not exempt from that.
Naw Ethan’s grown…sad. He’s grown really sad.
Ethan’s grown several inches of hair.
Ethan’s grown at least one other thing
with the help of Asher
Sad boy side bangs?
Or an Asher side bang?
Well, it did involve banging.
Dina smiling contemplation icon is *mwah!*
Jennifer’s grown out of drinking, at least.
Ethan grew enough to climb out of the closet he’d climbed back into. That’s more than Sarah’s done, I think.
Jennifer grew so much first semester, but it’s been a backslide lately.
I managed to read that as “into a backside lately” which kinda also works…
mike was pretty self aware and chose to stay an asshole tho
robin hasn’t grown too much but she’s borderline cartoonish in her comic relief
Mike was trying to change, but that made him difficult to write, because if he succeeded then he would stop being Mike. Oops, getting Doylian. The strip outgrew Mike, but he served a final function, to show that death is the only thing that eliminates the possibility of growth.
Robin went from pressuring a homeless 18 year old to make empty policy promises for her to dropping out of the race she had a good chance of winning to ease Becky’s conscience. When she indulges in her cartoonish impulses, that’s possibly to manage others’ expectations of her.
How can you say that? Mike has outgrown all kinds of irritating habits that he doesn’t have anymore.
As far as we know.
They can be exposed to them, know about them, and still not accept them. Something else always gets in the way
Short people want to grow, but do they grow? No.
They can. That does happen. Some people do just harden their positions, reject friends or family that come out to them.
But, personally knowing queer people is still the primary driver of people’s attitudes changing. Not everyone as quickly as Joyce, but it’s still the biggest way.
This is why Will and Grace was better for making straight people less narrow than for actually entertaining gay people.
Sarah, meet spotlight. Spotlight, meet Sarah.
Joyce can be real good at those piercing observations.
That’s a good question, Joyce, but consider this: What kind of school is Tristan going to? A secular university like you or a religion-based school that would reinforce his beliefs?
Mary shows that isn’t necessarily a factor.
Mary already knew that gay people existed, she was just against them. Joyce and Tristan grew up in a very sheltered environment. Joyce is changing precisely because she is learning more about the world.
Actually it’s a question of how sheltered Tristan was. Obviously they both grew up in a culty evangelical church, and Joyce definitely was sheltered; but in my experience some parents give their kids more leeway than others. I think it’s very possible that Tristan, being a boy, is afforded more privilege than Joyce could ever dream of having in that church and therefore has no reason to look beyond the borders of the church.
It’s not necessarily determinative, but it’s very likely a factor.
Remember, her parents partly let Joyce out into the big secular university because they thought they’d raised her well enough to resist. The best socialized of their home school group, according to their pastor.
If Tristan had let slip ideas like “who cares what’s in the Bible”, they wouldn’t have trusted him enough.
He’s probably at Anderson.:) Which also isn’t a guarantee — see Becky.
I’m not sure how much weight we should give punchlines from book 1, but I was about to mention it too. https://www.dumbingofage.com/socialized/
I don’t think we know that Tristan was homeschooled. And it doesn’t take going to a Christian college for someone who was raised Christian, but wasn’t terribly devout, to make that their identity and dive deep into devotion. Campus Crusade for Christ was at my secular university, looking to recruit that kind of person. They feel alone, away from family and friends, and a group that makes them feel like they belong tell them that sense of belonging is the Holy Spirit. That’s why there’s people who were already Christian who have “Born Again” testimonies.
There’s also the fact that this is just Tristan’s social media connected to his real name. That’s not always the best indicators of someone real ideals. He might be going through his own growth that he isn’t financially or socially secure enough to show anywhere his parents could see it.
I mean sure, that’s one possibility.
Another is that these public Facebook posts are purely performative, and indicate nothing whatsoever about his actual convictions. The intended audience could be family or peers he doesn’t feel able to be genuine around, or marks he is helping to fleece, if he’s become affiliated with a certain kind of evangelism.
I don’t wanna grow up. I wanna be a Toys R Us Kid.
I wish I could still be a Toys R Us Kid.
Rejoice.
https://www.toysrus.com
People get older and often entrenched in and committed to the views of the society they depend on in life. Could be via religion, some brand of politics, or even something about thetans. If they burn the bridges they rely on, they are stuck on an island. So whether you are in a church, a college, a union, a clique on Twitter, there can be serious pressure to conform. And when the pressure is already there, the path of least resistance emotionally is to assume it all must be true and blindly internalize it… Integrity and critical thinking are harder, and potentially more painful.
Joyce: People can convert TO religion? I thought that was made up by my parents!
I mean, even apart from the “wanting to grow” thing, it probably depends on what kind of environment Tristan has been in– i.e. what college. Which AFAIK hasn’t been stated, but it’s presumably not IU given that Joyce was excited to see him again when she and Becky went home after The Toedad Incident. I doubt Tristan would get a great understanding of gay people in, say, Anderson.
Yeah, we who live in individualistic societies tend to forget that like 50% of you is made up of your environment. And the other 50% is mostly your memories of previous experiences, i.e. past environments. We are our environments in a very real sense, much more than we are agents (= decision makers).
Joyce: What about you Carla
Carla: You can’t improve upon perfection.
You’re either perfect or you’re not Carla.
“… so you can’t, like, learn more engineering stuff and get even better? What are you even doing in college, then?”
well, atl east charlie is good for her as long as she doesn’t accidentally encourage her overconfident side , not that you should depend on a relationship to ‘change you’ but hopefully most ppl would be better after a relationship even if it’s just emporarily
Nah, you can TOTALLY improve on perfection! The Carla of today is obviously even better than the Carla of yesterday, because Carla always improves and never gets worse. Everyone else, of course, is still stuck in their sad, non-Carla lives, but really, who cares about them?
She’s a shower, not a grower.
Wanting to grow and wanting to put in the work on specific ways can be two different things. I think Sarah wants both but I dunno if she’s willing to pursue it and I’m sure being held hostage hasn’t made her MORE willing to drop that crusty shell.
From the way she gave the answer, it is clear that she is aware of this.
I don’t know, maybe I’m seeing too much, but the way Joyce asks the question, although she doesn’t seek any kind of serious intention, shows a certain malice.
Certainly she knows the answer already, but I don’t think her intention is to hurt Sarah. It’s one of those times where you point out the hard truth because you’re trying to help someone.
a full on change to where she actively acted more like, say, lucy would feel too uncanny versus her being ‘grumpy’ and occasionally helpful/kind to ppl but i can’t imagine her going out of her way to help someone unprompted
She’s gone out of her way to help people several times. Granted, it was usually the big gesture type but she has gone out of her way for people before. Heck, that’s what she did with Dana – if she just wanted her gone she’d have told the school ‘Yeah, my roommate is getting baked every single night and our room reeks of weed now’ and let her get expelled or arrested instead of trying to get her dad to help her. Now depending whether or not her dad’s a dick, that might have backfired but she was trying to help her.
Sometimes Joyce people want to do something but are also incredibly afraid of doing it. A position I think you were in for a while regarding your religion.
What a predicament, eh Sarah
I love you Sarah you can do it
oh sarah was not ready for that today
Power of friendship arc thyme baybee B)
Of course Sarah wants to grow. But it’s hard when you had experiences like she did. You slam that emotional door closed for *years*.
If I said she wants to want to grow, would that make any sense?
Ethan just wanted to like Transformers and not have to change.
Now he’s a Goth vampire.
On the plus side, he’s at least getting hate sex.
is it rly hate sex if he and asher don’t hate each other versus asher cheating(?) outta spite ( assuming he hasn’t texted or told jen to her face ‘we’re done’)
Jennifer said he wasn’t her boyfriend.
The problem was she did that so he’d be aloof and/or chase her.
What I think Joyce doesn’t totally get is that what she did is incredibly difficult. That might be obscured by the fact that both she and Becky made it out. But for every Joyce or Becky, there are probably hundreds of others.
Becky less made it out and more remained Becky in spite of.
Sarah wants something to grow.
Something like hair? Or a plant? 😮
something belonging to Jacob
Oh geez sorry Joyce, not everyone has the opportunity to have a full blown episode of a closeted lesbian with a crisis of faith. please check your privileges before you judge others. In another universe, Becky would have written these posts if she hadn’t been caught at the boarding school
Pffff okay
I have some difficulty grasping the exact meaning of the mast part of the alt-text, after the “how”.
I think it’s meant to be read as “How have you avoided meeting ANYONE who isn’t a Christian in 25 years?!”
superfluous comma. the “anyone” refers to the first half of the alt-text.
The alt-text is saying the same thing as Joyce in the first panel, but for everyone Willis has interacted with from their old church.
But in what Joyce wants Sarah to grow? To Sarah finally puck Jacob as boyfriend? To her finally accept Joe?
Also, I don’t believe only will make someone to grow: this person have physical, mental, emotional conditions to improve their life?
Not counting the person “luck”. What if Joyce and Tristan exchanged places? If he befriended Becky, Dina… Could Tristan be the same person as before?
I think Joyce just wants Sarah to let down her walls a bit more. They had a conversation like that aaages ago where Sarah got defensive and brought up attacking Ryan with a bat as proof she cares about Joyce and Joyce brings up how it can be hard to feel that love when it’s only massive gestures an never little things. This, along with many people noticing that after the winter timeskip, that Sarah has seemed to get even more cantankerous and abrasive (which could be a trauma response to being kidnapped and watching a man get his skull caved in) it could be thar Joyce at least wants to see Sarah loosen up and be happy. Or something.
I think deep down Sarah does want to grow, she’s also just cynical enough to know how hard it is and so has been avoiding it. When you’ve been in survival mode for so long to protect yourself, being vulnerable again feels like a mistake.
At least some part of Sarah is a sweetheart who is willing to make hard choices for her friends. Letting that part out again is so scary when people you trusted have turned on you and used everything you shared to wound you.
It feels like handing out active ammunition.
She does everything she can to squash and hide that part of herself, even just…not…doing that would be a huge step.
It’s hilarious to see how many people have just flipped the script and went from hating Sarah to defending her as if Joyce is saying something we haven’t all thought for at least a year.
Look, growth is tough. But Sarah is vocally, stubbornly resistant to anything that remotely challenges her authority or way of doing things.
She’s able to do this because she’s a sophomore living with freshmen and pretends that this makes her world-weary.
Honestly, that does that sound like someone who’s trying to grow up and change in any way?
Joyce hit the nail on the head with Sarah. Doesn’t matter how or why she was swinging the hammer.
I mean, Sarah just said something really nice to Joyce, and she flipped it back and made it kind of an attack on Sarah. It’s an odd social interaction.
I’ll push back on one thing: Sarah isn’t pretending to be world weary. She got bullied for a semester, Joyce got drugged, her friends have been physically attacked, and Sarah herself was kidnapped. Any one of those things could understandably push someone towards cynicism, abrasiveness, and world-weariness. Oh, and Raidah is still actively scheming against her; I’m sure that’s good for Sarah’s mental health.
Sarah isn’t hanging out with underclassmen because it gives her authority, she’s doing it because she was bullied and cut off from her social circle and doesn’t have any other friends. Like, please remember that Sarah literally got bullied by Raidah and her crew at the mall. At the mall. Raidah tried to sabotage her new friendships at the mall.
Granted, she’s also hanging out with underclassmen because Joyce was unrelentingly friendly, and Sarah likes her and wanted to help and protect her.
She’s kind of doing both, I think.
There are definitely reasons she does so, but some of it is also performative. Never letting down the “grumpy misanthrope” persona, except for a few private moments with Joyce, isn’t really what she wants, but if she does start letting it down for others, then maybe they’ll betray her in the worst case or maybe they just won’t let her retreat when she needs to.
And of course, pushing people away makes it easier for Raidah to keep her cut off.
I don’t know if that’s fair, saying that people flipped their stance, unless you’ve actually looked at who’s been saying what to check for consistency (though even then, yknow, change)… there are a lot of commentors, so it could easily be different people voicing these opinions.
If it’s just the overall tone in response you’re comparing, well, people often comment more when they have something to argue, so that could be a factor too.
I never expected Joyce to ask Sarah a question like that. She too sees the limits of that behaviour and how it is hurting Sarah first. After Lucy’s “J’accuse”, her chicken out and running away from Jacob and this observation from Joce, it would be time for Sarah to examine her conscience and perhaps try to do something for change the worst parts of herself.
It’s OK to feel some satisfaction when you’ve grown. Like, don’t be smug about it but when you climb the hill, turn around and look. Be there for others on the trail.
Or at the very least, make some helpful signs with tips and/or warnings on them so they can learn from you still!
Much like a real life platformer game!
Hint: Not everyone grows the same way, or gets the same influences, or interprets the same influences the same way.
True in theory, but in context, it’s pretty hard to talk about “stop redefining women” and “vaccines are a globalist …” as growth. This isn’t a neutral thing.
Would be very different if Tristan had gotten more Jesusy, but without the bigoted/conspiracy theory elements.
Time for this (retired) librarian to recommend a book.
Mistakes Were Made (but Not by Me) is a 2007 non-fiction book by social psychologists Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson. It deals with cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias, and other cognitive biases, using these psychological theories to illustrate how the perpetrators (and victims) of hurtful acts justify and rationalize their behavior. It describes a positive feedback loop of action and self-deception by which slight differences between people’s attitudes become polarized.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistakes_Were_Made_(but_Not_by_Me)
I think Sarah does want to grow, and makes effort, but what she’s having trouble with is something that comes naturally to Joyce. This confrontation feels a little like Jacob’s “have you tried not being an introvert” attitude. Sarah does try to be more outgoing, and caring, and she gets stung by it.
It’s not like a mac and cheese dinner could have fixed her entire social circle vilifying her for getting Dana the help they didn’t think she needed.
On the other hand, the dynamic between Joyce and Sarah is sounder than with Jacob, that she could feel safe talking about it.
But also, I can’t help remember another friend who isn’t trying to grow, that she and Joyce both think doesn’t need to grow, and is struggling immensely right now because of it.
The thing is that Sarah doesn’t need to be more outgoing, she needs to be more forgiving of herself. She needs the courage to admit that something isn’t working without thowing up walls and doubling down. I’m not even sure if she’s honest with herself about what she truely wants. At the moment it seems like she’s just happy to outsource happiness to Joyce.
They’re tied together. She’s prickly instead of friendly because she doesn’t like herself. She doesn’t like herself as a consequence of being repeatedly told she’s a terrible person when she makes connections or tries to make connections.
I was in an evangelical church, so there was always a big emphasis on spreading the word. I frequently had fellow church members asking why I was spending so much of my time around non-Christians.
As such, I’m not surprised that they haven’t talked with enough non-Christians to understand how wrong their world view is. I am wondering exactly who it is that they’re attempting to spread the word to.
Actually, I lie, I know exactly who they’re trying to spread the word to. Each other. Gotta keep everyone in the cult in the cult. No, don’t call it that, it’s not a cult. We just look like and act like a cult in basically every way, but we were established over 100 years ago so not a cult.
Although, that said, I didn’t decide that they were basically wrong in every meaningful way based on talking with Christians. I was able to figure that out entirely through inconsistencies in their own beliefs and actions. Clearly, none of them actually believed or understood what it was they believed. I cannot tell which of those two were the issue, but at least one of them was the issue with every single one of them.
One of the standard cult tricks is to push members to take every interaction with non-members as a chance to try to convert them. It very rarely works, but it does tend to piss off the non-members, which makes the members interactions with them unpleasant, so they fall back on only associating with people in the cult.
It only really happens that way if members are incompetent at it. Logically one cannot convert if one doesn’t understand the religion, and they won’t understand the religion if they’re just told “Jesus died for your sins, convert!”. To the best of my recollection, that’s literally something I heard someone say. Now, they were trying to convert another member of the church, so it was fine. But I seemed to be the only one there who had any awareness of how bad that was. I was a child, and there were half a dozen adults present, as well as a lot of kids who were older than me.
To be clear, I’m not arguing with you. I’m arguing with the sanity of the practice. Though it was recognizing that insanity that led me to understand they were a cult, regardless of how long ago they were established.
I recently wrote a short story called The Bronze Garden, which I’m still trying to figure out myself. Bronze is as close to an imperishable thing as we can have in this universe, you understand. A man made substance that is more atomically stable than pure gold. But it’s made by our hands and it doesn’t grow. It doesn’t change.
I am puzzled by your understanding of gold vs bronze. Surely any alchemist would disagree with you. Perhaps you are thinking of orichalcum?
When confronted with things that challenge the worldview you’ve held for years, people tend to react in two ways:
1) Realize that your worldview may have been flawed. Take the new fact and experiences and integrate them into your view, changing the parts of it that no longer seem correct. You may even feel a need to examine your views and see what parts you believe yourself and what parts you’ve just been TOLD you believe.
2) Reject the new experience and burrow further into that worldview. Reject anything that challenges it. Vilify it, even. And surround yourself with people that share and/or support your worldview. (In order to keep these people around you, you may end up adopting some of THEIR views as well, adding them to your own. This is one way people fall into extremism)
This might just be me, but I think that Joyce might have an unrealistic view of what everyone’s experience was when leaving home for college. It’s not exactly typical for your best friend to show up, try to make out with you, hide in your room as a homeless kid, suddenly get kidnapped, chase the kidnapper on a high speed chase aided by a superhero, later have the church to pay the bond of the kidnapper you chased after on a motorcycle, who then teams up with the local supervillain in order to kidnap your entire friend group, all in an effort to get two kids to stop going to college and go home and maybe date a boy.
Those kinds of things TYPICALLY shove you a little out of your comfort zone. We don’t often step out of our comfort zones.
I mean, hell. In my first semester of college, I bought a PS2 and played a whole lot of Final Fantasy X.
In my first semester of college there was a nationwide student strike for 6 months! Nobody passed that year. I also lost my scholarship so…
As a wise man once said,
Sarah wants to want to grow. She’s just not ready to do the work required to get there.