That’s generally me, so I have the utmost sympathy.
Plus side, you also get to be the group’s documentarian, which can be amusing. I have friends whose kids are getting some hilarious footage of their parents in their 20s when the time is right.
I inadvertently found myself in that role my own freshman year in college, when a quartet of sloshed individuals wandered into the dorm commons and were very silly for several minutes. I didn’t have a camera handy (this predated smartphones), but I still like telling their tale even today. (Names anonymized, of course… I actually don’t remember most of their real names at this point anyway, it’s been so long.)
Clearly I need more coffee, because my muzzy just-woke brain read that as “They are very cute in those panties.” And yeah my mind went to that visual. But perhaps I’m projecting forward to a next-week comic.
Cues up Shonen Knife’s thrash pop version of ‘Top of the world’ to follow (Richard Carpenter is on record as saying that Karen would have adored this version).
So… the term “gay panic” refers to a legal defense generally used when queer people get murdered, to say the violence was “justified” bc they were gay. I know it gets thrown around a lot as slang, but the real meaning is really fucked up
Slightly more specifically, it refers to situations where the assailant claims that the victim of the assault/homicide was, in some fashion, attempting to seduce or rape the assailant, generally based on nothing more than the fact that they were gay and therefore had to be sexual predators. (Ie, there’s no actual claim of self-defense, merely the idea that it’s reasonable for a straight man to assume that a gay man is going to rape him, and therefore to react with violence to the perceived threat.)
This is, of course, a massive case of projection–straight men, knowing how straight men have treated women over the entire course of human history, assume that gay men will treat straight men the same way if given an opportunity to do so.
I would agree with your analysis, because that is what happened. Joyce was jealous that Dorothy was spending all her times with Walky, except it is entirely possible that Joyce is straight but has a queer-platonic relationship with Dorothy.
co-sign on this interpretation, regardless of what unfolds in the future. It’s very possible to be jealous of a boyfriend taking a friend’s time, without romantic attraction.
What complicates it, is that whatever else is going on between these two, Joyce actually was jealous of the Dorothy time. If she’s actually romantically/sexually jealous as well, that’s still below the surface.
A night out? A group date? I wanna joke and say “Wednesday?” but would be worried the fact I’m joking wouldn’t be clear and there’d be follow-up questions and I’m very monogamous (demisexual) and would not feel qualified to answer…
Isn’t that where “straight” girls make out with other “straight” girls “to turn on and attract the attention of straight guys”..? Like, at parties and stuff?
This is actually Joe’s reflex knowing that Sarah is in the room, with a bat, and possibly drunk enough to inflict lasting damage on anyone trying to mack on her little sister.
Sarah specifically called out Dorothy in the past for having a “weird gay thing” with Joyce! However, she not only permitted, but actively encouraged this, because she viewed Dorothy as the lesser of two evils when compared to Joe. I doubt that her attitude has changed all that much since then.
Welp, I had a feeling that Joe was going to be uncomfortable with Drunken Joyce, and looks where we are now.
Joe can’t get drunk and have sex with her; he would feel like it is taking advantage of her and the drinking doesn’t excuse it. He can’t stay sober and have sex with her while she is drunk, he’ll still feel like it is taking advantage of her.
The only way these two are going to have sex, is if a sober Joyce says she wants to, and Joe can get past his own worries of hurting her.
This seems healthy and welcome. I guess we’re going to have Asher show up with Ethan and have Billie catch them in the act. You know, just to balance out growth with drama.
Or, Malaya’s iguana with the profane name gives someone a weird infection.
Asher and Ethan are already there, but I know what you mean. I guess it depends on if anyone invited Jennifer to the party or if she has the same power as Asher and Sal to just appear at parties.
I agree, but this is good mature thinking. They can make out and go further down that road when they are both sober and of sound mind — and after Sarah and Dorothy have seen and acknowledged Joe’s lack of “taking advantage” and Joyce’s wholehearted consent. Joe wants to continue to make friends and get respect. And to keep his femurs.
Yeah, and it’s lovely to see that Joe is this kind of guy (to my knowledge tho, he’s always been big on consent, so i don’t think he’s been taking advantage of drunk women before…?).
I’m not sure why people are bending themselves into pretzels to forget that he started off as a total asshole. A misogynist who didn’t like to be told “no”, thought he could fix Joyce with his penis, and rated every woman on campus, but I’d be here all day if I responded to every comment like yours.
Joe was a total asshole, even on their date he was leering at other women. But even though he agreed with “fix her with his penis,” he never pressured anyone into a sexual encounter in order to fix them. He’s not the character who has done that.
Again, by his own admission, he’s fine having sex with drunk people that they would not have consented to otherwise.
I am not interested in arguing facts just because you personally don’t like what they say about his previous attitude towards women. I am, however, glad he changed.
Possible he was more ok with having sex with a women even if she is drunk, but now has changed his mind as he’s trying to be a better person.
Or he has just never had a drunk girl as his date.
Joe, who remembers the last time Joyce was at a party and the massive amount of trust being put in his hands because drunk means it isn’t consent? What an excellent dude, I’m proud of him!
Something I have always wondered. How drunk do you have to be for it to no longer be consent? And what if both parties are drunk? Does it count as rape if they both willingly do the deed, but one party was more sober than the other? Does the law only protect women because of “penetration” being so important in so many cases? Do they have to sign a form so they can get drunk, and have sex without worrying about breaking tne law?
Treating drunkenness as unable to give consent is a very good rule that’s meant to avoid disaster – just like drink-and-driving drunken consent may lead to consequences that neither party is unhappy with afterwards, and so who cares, but if one person is unhappy about the choice they made while drunk — disaster.
I’m saying this to argue that I feel you’re approaching it from a wrongheaded legalistic point of view, rather from the point of view of “what minimizes the chance for disaster”? Established couples that frequently have sex with each other getting sloshed together and then having sex for the 20th time – unlikely to cause disaster any more than any other time they fucked unless they forgot birth control.
But someone getting drunk and having sex for the first time in that state – whether her partner is also drunk or not, this is highly inadvisable.
Very good explanation. It’s more about showing respect and restraint, self-control. It’s about not doing something someone will regret. You want your partner to remember your encounter fondly and seek you out for more. Not to be miserable and avoid you.
Things are far more fraught with someone new to you and especially with someone new to sex!
I also think *getting drunk with an established partner* is absolutely a valid, reasonably safe thing. But you don’t want your first time with someone to be forgotten and overshadowed by a hangover. Not that i put super big emphasis on first times (they are usually not as good as a bit later when you know each other’s and your own preferences a bit more), but it is still something you want to be consciously present for.
And the less experienced someone is with sex, the harder to know and voice your boundaries.
Oh, direct comparison i forgot to make:
Dina and Shirtless Becky are also drunk and doing shirtless things. I did not worry about them for a second. They are also still kinda new to sex, but they already established some conversations about sex, so i trust them much more to communicate about it even when drunk.
In theory there’s no way to know both peoples blood alcohol level at the time. In theory both could be prosecuted for it. Now, the reality is that if both are equally drunk only the man would be arrested and prosecuted. Convicted is a crap shoot. But I’ve never seen a time a guy was able to say they were assaulted due to being drunk and have the woman prosecuted, especially if both had been drinking. It may very well have happened, but I’ve never seen it in the news kr heard of it happening.
IANAL, but as I understand it the legal standard for unable to give consent due to drunkenness is a very high one. Not quite to passed out, but very close to that level. Not at the “my judgement is impaired”, but the incoherent and not really aware of what’s going on level.
And if both are at that stage of drunkenness, it’s not really possible to have sex, so there’s no real risk of mutual rape charges.
Now the moral concern definitely starts at a lower level, but is also more nuanced. The point here as aelfwine said above is to minimize the chance of one party having serious regrets afterwards and that’s something that’s very situational.
In my opinion, if you have to be drunk or tipsy to be able to ask for sex from people, aka loosen the nerves or whatever, that is a psychological thing that you should probably fix or is just a bad idea in general. In that sense, I would vote for never having sex with someone who is drunk. I also can’t imagine that impaired senses and coordination really help with having a good time if you are inexperienced either. If you are really worried about your nerves, be honest with your partner about that and go slowly. If it is the right person for you, they will work with you on it without using alcohol to impare your judgment and emotions.
Reminds me of thr people that say that they don’t actually trust someone until they have a drink with them. Seriously, if you need alcohol to get someone to open up and be honest with you, I think there is something wrong there, either with society or your social interactions.
Guys being assaulted is really something that should be talked about more and gets downplayed all to often when it happens IMO.
“if you need alcohol to … I think there is something wrong there”
well yes, obviously. But you’re saying as if it is unusual for there to be something wrong with people. We’re all broken messes. I haven’t met a perfectly undamaged person in my life.
Well, I think it is pretty obvious that nobody is perfect. I also don’t think that alcohol should be the thing society normalizes as how you overcome your insecurities. I did not mean to make it sound as if I thought that it was unusual for something to be wrong with people. It was more of a critique on how alcohol is viewed as a “cheap” solution and how we as a society don’t focus on improving mental health care and making it more affordable. You also can get that with medications, and wanting an easy fix over long term change.
The thing about not actually trusting someone until they have a drink with them isn’t about you needing alcohol to get someone to open up and be honest with you, but a test to be sure that they really are. Some people are good at hiding things, but that generally loosens and slips with alcohol.
Perhaps, but generally it involves everyone inbibing alcohol, in which case I am not sure that I would trust anyone’s judgement on what was actually let slip or not. It could also be something that they are working on and normally wouldn’t lose control, like anger management, but then they get drunk and lose that control. It could just be my thoughts from my personal experience, as a woman possibly on the spectrum. Society is often very odd to me.
The law has basically nothing to do with this. You have to be so drunk that you’re completely unable to respond to questions before the law will even care.
As for how drunk is too drunk… it’s a really gray area. Like personally I don’t consider my decisions made while drunk/high/tripping to be any less my informed decisions than when I’m in any other state. The idea of a singular conscious mind is a sham anyway. But not everyone sees it that way, and unless you know someone very well it’s better to be safe rather than sorry.
Basically. And the law kind of has to be that way. It’s hard to envision writing it any other way without leading to really bad outcomes if two drunk people have sex.
For more moral concerns, it’s very situational. The intent should be to minimize the chances of serious regrets afterwards, but without blocking things the people want to do.
I have this fun little picture book all about consent and while I think it’s a LITTLE over simplified and sometimes a little too demanding about very specific kinds of verbiage used to acquire consent, it’s doing so to present the absolute safest and most communicative setting. It’s also still nuanced enough to present the idea that intoxication isn’t exactly a one size fits all things and it explains that the important thing is for the intoxicated party, or parties, to still be cognizant and coherent to make their own decisions. BUT it critically cautions that if you are more sober than your partner and for even a second you doubt their ability to make that decision coherently that you have the responsibility to extract yourself.
From a legal standpoint, SA is also a crime of liability so if you’re too intoxicated to understand that they are too intoxicated to consent then you can still be held liable if the other party felt forced but the same can be said about you. But it’s really more about the morality than the legality
Prediction: the trend of parodying a bible verse in each alt-text during this party arc shall continue. Reaching a just but relationship straining zenith with Exodus 3:2
Man, I feel so bad for Joe. He’s really trying to reign himself in & be good, something that’s been such a huge deal for him since he was texting Joyce, but Joyce just wants to let it all loose & go out like she never has before.
& while I completely get as someone who was in a similar position, she’s definitely missing that Joe is also trying to change, but to be more ‘like’ her.
Perhaps she trusts him and appreciates how respectful he is of her. She can let loose because he has the experience to be in control of himself. He’s had plenty of sex already, he wants something deeper now. I want so much for this to work out for them!
Thank goodness the attention has moved on from the drama magnets… perhaps we won’t get the seemingly inevitable complete disaster? No one invite Jennifer!
Like the last one where everyone thought Joyce and Dorothy going out for under age drinking was gonna end horribly and it turned out completely fine and nice.
“Because every straight woman in the room, and possibly the gay ones, think I’m a sexual predator, even though I’ve never done anything even sketchy. Not worth the risk.”
“Never done anything even sketchy” here meaning “have had threesomes with women I think consented easier because they were drunk” and “was a massive misogynist for most of my life”
Like, he’s changing and that’s great, but it doesn’t mean people aren’t right to be wary of a man who has previously given them plenty of reasons to be.
This doesn’t change your point much, but if I’m remembering correctly, I believe he later confessed to Danny that he’d never actually had a threesome. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, though.
But yeah, that only changes “had had threesomes…” to “has claimed to have had threesomes…”, which none of the other guests (other than maybe Joyce) are aware was just talk. And I’d still put under the category of Joe engaging in toxic masculinity in order to ape confidence.
Except for you know, the whole keeping a list in which he graded women and make comments about their bodies thing. That would been sketchy even if it didn’t get leaked, the fact he thought that was a normal thing to do in the first place was the problem
And the whole not interacting with women except to hit on them thing.
A lot of his thing was performative not real, but it’s hard to tell exactly how much. At the very least he was acting like someone who should not be trusted. He was a walking red flag, even if he said that consent was important. Lots of predators say the right things.
I do think Joe’s not turbo comfortable with drunken Joyce, though it’s at least cute that he seems maybe okay with the double date suggestion. Makes total sense, though, as I think he’s kind of excited to *be* a boyfriend, like he seemed pleasantly nervous about holding her hand prior, for instance. That stuff’s new to him.
Yep. Seems like he’s committed to doing the right thing, and both (1) isn’t exactly certain of the fine points of doing the right thing, and (2) is warring against his own inner urges. So he _can_ remain mostly confident to let Joyce guide him through it, when he’s uncertain, but if she’s drunk, well, now he can’t rely on her judgement in that case.
Joe is trying his best to navigate a tricky social situation, especially since she’s been making hints the whole day that she wants to get dicked down, but he’s not entirely sure if she knows what she wants. But also a huge percentage of it is that he’s projecting some of his unwillingness onto her.
These are the things that make you miss meaningless hookups!
I choose to believe you actually just typed “conga” as your comment… But did accidentally report it, sorry (those buttons are close together and my 4 year old is throwing a soft toy at me repeatedly)
If Joe was just a little more experienced (in this context) and/or brave he would have told Joyce before all this started that he’s not having sex with her for the first time drunk.
Joyce thinks she’s being real creative because she never got to see Spider-Man 1 as a kid (then again now with the sliding timescale, that movie is older than she is…)
Joyce……… Walky is *right there*. This goes beyond roasting your friends, this is bullying.
Even if you have *reasonable concern* that someone isn’t *good* for your friend, talk to your friend in private.
But Walky isn’t a toxic partner. He’s goofy and in some ways immature (but then again, that’s what being 20 (?) is like for many people, and doesn’t mean it’s all bad. He complements Dorothy who is way too serious often.
The whole “you’re too good for him“ idea of people being at different “levels“ is crappy. Everyone is different people. Sometimes you aren’t compatible, but whether someone is popular or conventionally attractive doesn’t mean they’re a worse match.
I also hate Joyce’s attitude towards Walky. I think it’s partially caused by her jealousy, in fact, in that he takes so much of Dorothy’s time and attention away from her.
And I think the double date is really a disguise for Joyce and Dorothy hangout time. Like, they say “double date”, but in their subconscious it’s actually “best girl friends date, who may have a romantic crush on each other, but don’t realize it”.
This is fine.
Joyce and Walky have a thing going on. He said right in the last strip that he heard and cherished the implied “fucking” before his name.
No, you can’t say anything remotely resembling something mean to anyone ever, even if they are close friends that don’t mind it because that make you terrible and toxic and anything else I want to call them right now!
Are they close friends? Joyce is never nice or kind to Walky. She doesn’t even like him. They are simply in the same social circle, and have been in some classes together. If someone insulted me all the time, I would not consider them a close friend. I think he allows it because he is used to the bullying (from Jennifer and others in high school), and does not have enough of a spine to get angry and stand up for himself.
Walky doesn’t need to “stand up for himself” in this situation because he isn’t actually offended by any of this! He take it as a big joke, and he happily deliver it back at her, they have a frienemy dynamic, it’s not that hard to get.
Or, because it’s Joyce and he doesn’t take it seriously. Do you think someone who is being “bullied” fire back with his own comments like he does? It is a mutual thing, they poke each other because they are friends. It’s a thing many friends do.
Is it still poking fun when Joyce actually believes what she says? “Walky is a bozo who is beneath Dorothy’s station.” She believes Walky does not deserve Dorothy, because he’s a slob and a silly fool. And Walky agrees, I am sure. However, he does not need that kind of comment from Joyce (comments which she has expressed many times) because it simply doubles down on what he already knows are his faults. He already has a low self-esteem. Anyway, a lot of it is due to jealousy and resentment, but that does not excuse her mean comments.
Also, I don’t see how this is a mutual poking fun. Walky hasn’t yet said anything mean to Joyce during this interaction. The “fucking Walky” was unprovoked and uncalled for. It’s like she hates Walky just for being around and dating her BFF. (She kind of does)
I’ve had this dynamic with my dad and my sister, we had this kind of deprecating humor towards each other. Nothing really mean was meant by it, we did all love each other, BUT: it still hurt, because there’s always a pinch of truth (or a pinch of what you fear might be true because you are insecure about it) between the jabs. I think there’s been a part in my dad that *really* thought i was less competent in the things he made fun of me for. A small part, but still a part. And that did dig at my self-image. There’s a fine line with *not taking yourself too seriously* and *having a low self-image about something*.
I ended up standing up for myself and kindly asked the two of them that we stop this kind of humor. I’m doing better now that nobody makes deprecating fun of me.
I do think that you can lovingly make fun of each other, but there’s a line where it stops being fun, and you both need to be aware of that.
And i think this is a crucial point: if you ask someone to stop, will they stop? Or is their *fun* more important than my feelings?
Walky’s 18. His birthday’s April 1st, which is not for a few decades yet at the rate we’re going.
(It’s my headcanon that Sal is the older twin by just enough that she was born late on March 31st. But the Walkertons have always celebrated on Walky’s birthday.)
Joyce is also 18, until May, I think, assuming that her birthday’s the same as in the other universe. (Her middle name isn’t, so it might not be.) Dorothy’s 19. I think Dina is too… IIRC she’s actually the oldest of the freshpersons.
Walky and Joyce are fine. They snipe at each other, then they go have lunch together. They’ve got a whole antagonistic pseudo-sibling dynamic going. It frankly works a lot better for them than the designated OTP thing they had in the other universe.
This is totally Lucy and Diane, except there’s legitimate feeling for the cis men they’re both involved with, and, unless Joyce or Dorothy realize they’re gay, I’m pretty sure they’re pan/bi (egs Lucy is gay, as confirmed in the recent comics).
Oh I am a egs fan! Would love to see more content from these two comics. One person once mentioned the idea of Joyce and egs Sarah being relatives because they are both have brown as their last names.
It is absolutely horrifying how many people have ignored the repeated evidence of Joe being a good guy. The number of “Aww, he’s trying to be good” is insane. The comic has long established him as being sexually promiscuous, but very big on things like enthusiastic consent. I think some folks need to do some work on the idea that “sexually promiscuous ≠ immoral person”
GingerMadman’s point is about “trying to be good” comments in this context. He has always been portrayed as “good” in the context of his partners giving consent.
He’s never been portrayed as a rapist, if that’s what you mean. That’s not quite the same. He’s been portrayed as objectifying women, as not taking no as answer until he’s yelled at or threatened.
It’s been at least questionable how good he was on consent, partly because we never saw Old Joe’s game in a situation where he didn’t get that hard forceful no. We never saw most of his hookups. We never saw him at the drinking parties it’s implied he’s been to, which is where most college hookups happen and where the most questionable stuff occurs.
That said, I think “trying to be good” is the wrong framing for Joe here. He’s trying to navigate an actual relationship and he’s desperately afraid of screwing it up and hurting Joyce.
Yeah but I feel like being a real asshole doesn’t necessarily escalate to disregarding consent.
It’s like… just cause he parked his car across two spaces all the time doesn’t mean he’d be the kind of guy to do a hit and run.
I mean this comments section will rip in to characters essentially just because they’re making emotionally immature and bad decisions (in a webcomic called dumbing of age, no less!), so it’s not surprising that annyoing fuckboy is equated to rapist.
He’s doing more to show that he cares about the people around him being comfortable, which isn’t something he was consistent in previously. I don’t think people talking about his personal growth or trying to be “good” are talking about basics of consent. (Though with the enthusiastic consent, it’s not like he was always 100% gangbusters with that.)
Joe is being pushed into being the “good guy” he has been, all along. He is free of his father’s toxic influence (because “Joe the womaniser” is an obvious result of being around someone who REALLY IS a selfish womaniser, for most of his childhood and teens)
He has ALWAYS been clear on the subject of consent
He KNOWS he can’t win in this situation. He KNOWS that Joyce doesn’t really know what she is (apparently) asking for, and OTHERS in the room know or suspect that. He KNOWS that whoever gets the benefit of the doubt, it won’t be him.
Joe’s only option is to make sure Joyce wakes up safe, in her own bed (or Dorothy’s, he gets a free pass on THAT one) while he is seen to be somewhere else.
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Joe “looks like I’m the designated sober person tonight”
That’s generally me, so I have the utmost sympathy.
Plus side, you also get to be the group’s documentarian, which can be amusing. I have friends whose kids are getting some hilarious footage of their parents in their 20s when the time is right.
ooh better save those in several backups, never can be too careful
Ooh, i should have done rhat with my little brother (the sodden sot) when he was in his 20’s. And gave them to his kids when the eldest turned 15.
Noice.
(@Doctor_Who)
I inadvertently found myself in that role my own freshman year in college, when a quartet of sloshed individuals wandered into the dorm commons and were very silly for several minutes. I didn’t have a camera handy (this predated smartphones), but I still like telling their tale even today. (Names anonymized, of course… I actually don’t remember most of their real names at this point anyway, it’s been so long.)
I was the designated sober person until I turned 40. I have soo much dirt on my siblings it’s almost frightening!
Looks like Joe might also be designated no-hanky-panky, too…..
*plays “Close to You” by The Carpenters on hacked muzak*
That is a fantastic song. One of my favorites.
They are very cute in those panels
Clearly I need more coffee, because my muzzy just-woke brain read that as “They are very cute in those panties.” And yeah my mind went to that visual. But perhaps I’m projecting forward to a next-week comic.
Obligatory XKCD reference: https://xkcd.com/348/
Cues up Shonen Knife’s thrash pop version of ‘Top of the world’ to follow (Richard Carpenter is on record as saying that Karen would have adored this version).
Dexter prefers Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft.
Joyce I don’t know if Dorothy was saying you were jealous of her
Yeah I clocked that too. Between that and ‘whatever’ we are going down a road…
I think the thought of Whatever sent her into a moment of Unconscious Gay Panic, which is why she is now demanding Heterosexual Makeouts.
So… the term “gay panic” refers to a legal defense generally used when queer people get murdered, to say the violence was “justified” bc they were gay. I know it gets thrown around a lot as slang, but the real meaning is really fucked up
Yikes I did not know that. :/
Oops, sorry, I was only familiar with the slang usage, didn’t realize it was a loaded term.
Slightly more specifically, it refers to situations where the assailant claims that the victim of the assault/homicide was, in some fashion, attempting to seduce or rape the assailant, generally based on nothing more than the fact that they were gay and therefore had to be sexual predators. (Ie, there’s no actual claim of self-defense, merely the idea that it’s reasonable for a straight man to assume that a gay man is going to rape him, and therefore to react with violence to the perceived threat.)
This is, of course, a massive case of projection–straight men, knowing how straight men have treated women over the entire course of human history, assume that gay men will treat straight men the same way if given an opportunity to do so.
Yes, it’s deeply and profoundly disgusting.
Or it just made her think about sex, which also leads to her demanding makeouts.
It’s certainly possible and Willis is definitely teasing it here, but this isn’t a case where there’s no possible heterosexual reason.
I’m absolutely certain that Dorothy meant Joyce was jealous of Walky.
Time to let those bi flags fly!
I would agree with your analysis, because that is what happened. Joyce was jealous that Dorothy was spending all her times with Walky, except it is entirely possible that Joyce is straight but has a queer-platonic relationship with Dorothy.
Joyce isn’t straight, in my opinion.
No, you don’t understand. Joyce isn’t jealous of Walky getting romance (and/or sex) from Dorothy. Joyce is just jealous of him getting her TIME.
In other words, Joyce just wants to be able to be a friend of Dorothy. A gal pal. That’s all!
co-sign on this interpretation, regardless of what unfolds in the future. It’s very possible to be jealous of a boyfriend taking a friend’s time, without romantic attraction.
…. maybe I need to be less subtle.
Yes, your failure to use a rainbow font for “friend of Dorothy” was a terrible mistake — I’m hope someone will come up with a suitable punishment
Oh my god. If the is was a set up for a Friends of Dorothy joke I’m going to have to finally forgive Leslie Bean…
That ship sailed a long time ago.
Yes, yes. Be less subtle.
But more ambiguous.
Woof-Woof. thats what Bluesky is for
Perhaps, in time, they could become roommates!
Roomies, even.
Personally I keep waiting for the science fiction element as we transition into It’s Dorothy!
or segue into Dorothys Transition
*Gasp*
Roommates?
Future archaeologists and historians will agree on this interpretation.
What complicates it, is that whatever else is going on between these two, Joyce actually was jealous of the Dorothy time. If she’s actually romantically/sexually jealous as well, that’s still below the surface.
when you saw only one set of hickeys…
was it jesus ?
Is ‘whatever’ code for a foursome? Where Joyce covers her eyes so she can only see Joe and Dorothy?
Next year on Slipshine…
I mean we probably getting *something* on Slipshine really soon.
Like, why else would Willis advertise the Summer Sale? XD
Because he just did a slipshine earlier this book, with Danny and Sal?
Yes. Why would (someone who makes money from slipshine) advertise a summer sale… on slipshine?
It’s a mystery, truly.
Personally I blame the military/industrial/pornlord complex.
( Thinks Hard) Some New Model Dinobot is coming out ?
oh, Joyce will look, but will hold up a picture of Dorothy so she doesnt see walks face.
Double date whatevers? Ok, I think it’s hard for anyone to not be onboard with the idea of Dorothy growing bisexuality.
Do double-dates usually end in foursomes? I’ve had really vanilla double-dates, evidently. And I’m kinda ok with that.
Well, it can be awkward when they end in threesomes, unless everyone was onboard with that going into the date.
…. can three-part polycules go on double dates with other three-part polycules?
The only thing stopping them is whether or not a six-top is available at the restaurant.
Would that technically be a double date or…something else? And if so, what?
A night out? A group date? I wanna joke and say “Wednesday?” but would be worried the fact I’m joking wouldn’t be clear and there’d be follow-up questions and I’m very monogamous (demisexual) and would not feel qualified to answer…
I would reply to that joke and say that it sounds like season 2 of Wednesday has gone in a different direction.
But not unexpectedly. The polycule fanfic on her parents and _their_ kinks/lifestyle is prodigious.
this is pretty good Joyce Dialogue
It seems like it would be a double date. The “double” refers to two dates going on together, not to the number of people on each date.
If its the Polycule Coop Contract ,
Tree Law is s .. Ethical Slut Contract law is serious business.
I’ve been on like twenty and no they generally don’t.
I’m aware and I want to proceed.
Hey, they found a way to date and pretend it’s het!
…I’m not gonna say good job because I’m not, buuuuuut it’s a step
A beard date?
…Joyce generating (and retracting) stubble from others is this strip’s one superpower…
Are we just forgetting Magical Autistic Girl Teleporting ?
…if I also can do that in real life, can I consider it a superpower in real life?
please say yes xD
Isn’t that where “straight” girls make out with other “straight” girls “to turn on and attract the attention of straight guys”..? Like, at parties and stuff?
Their second date! Woo!
This is actually Joe’s reflex knowing that Sarah is in the room, with a bat, and possibly drunk enough to inflict lasting damage on anyone trying to mack on her little sister.
Well, RIP Dorothy then.
Oh, no, no; Dorothy will be fine. Sarah knows that Dorothy and Joyce are just good friends. Maybe roommates one day. Historically speaking.
Sarah specifically called out Dorothy in the past for having a “weird gay thing” with Joyce! However, she not only permitted, but actively encouraged this, because she viewed Dorothy as the lesser of two evils when compared to Joe. I doubt that her attitude has changed all that much since then.
Pals, even!
Just gals being pals!
Welp, I had a feeling that Joe was going to be uncomfortable with Drunken Joyce, and looks where we are now.
Joe can’t get drunk and have sex with her; he would feel like it is taking advantage of her and the drinking doesn’t excuse it. He can’t stay sober and have sex with her while she is drunk, he’ll still feel like it is taking advantage of her.
The only way these two are going to have sex, is if a sober Joyce says she wants to, and Joe can get past his own worries of hurting her.
This seems healthy and welcome. I guess we’re going to have Asher show up with Ethan and have Billie catch them in the act. You know, just to balance out growth with drama.
Or, Malaya’s iguana with the profane name gives someone a weird infection.
Asher and Ethan are already there, but I know what you mean. I guess it depends on if anyone invited Jennifer to the party or if she has the same power as Asher and Sal to just appear at parties.
“I heard Lucy was over here, and…whoah, is this a party?”
I agree, but this is good mature thinking. They can make out and go further down that road when they are both sober and of sound mind — and after Sarah and Dorothy have seen and acknowledged Joe’s lack of “taking advantage” and Joyce’s wholehearted consent. Joe wants to continue to make friends and get respect. And to keep his femurs.
Yeah, and it’s lovely to see that Joe is this kind of guy (to my knowledge tho, he’s always been big on consent, so i don’t think he’s been taking advantage of drunk women before…?).
Who knows? We only have what he’s said before to go off of, and while he’s said a lot of pro-consent things, he has also said things like this:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/01-if-the-shoes-split/theplural/
I’m not sure why people are bending themselves into pretzels to forget that he started off as a total asshole. A misogynist who didn’t like to be told “no”, thought he could fix Joyce with his penis, and rated every woman on campus, but I’d be here all day if I responded to every comment like yours.
Joe was a total asshole, even on their date he was leering at other women. But even though he agreed with “fix her with his penis,” he never pressured anyone into a sexual encounter in order to fix them. He’s not the character who has done that.
Again, by his own admission, he’s fine having sex with drunk people that they would not have consented to otherwise.
I am not interested in arguing facts just because you personally don’t like what they say about his previous attitude towards women. I am, however, glad he changed.
Possible he was more ok with having sex with a women even if she is drunk, but now has changed his mind as he’s trying to be a better person.
Or he has just never had a drunk girl as his date.
Well he’s never had a girlfriend whose feelings he’s actually cared about before, so this situation is completely different for him.
Hey, Joe! Where you goin’ with that girl in your lap?
I’m gonna shoot my… self if I hurt this girl who makes me happy but has been… you know…
Aww, Joe is worried about Joyce’s past trauma coming up, it seems
Joe, who remembers the last time Joyce was at a party and the massive amount of trust being put in his hands because drunk means it isn’t consent? What an excellent dude, I’m proud of him!
Something I have always wondered. How drunk do you have to be for it to no longer be consent? And what if both parties are drunk? Does it count as rape if they both willingly do the deed, but one party was more sober than the other? Does the law only protect women because of “penetration” being so important in so many cases? Do they have to sign a form so they can get drunk, and have sex without worrying about breaking tne law?
Treating drunkenness as unable to give consent is a very good rule that’s meant to avoid disaster – just like drink-and-driving drunken consent may lead to consequences that neither party is unhappy with afterwards, and so who cares, but if one person is unhappy about the choice they made while drunk — disaster.
I’m saying this to argue that I feel you’re approaching it from a wrongheaded legalistic point of view, rather from the point of view of “what minimizes the chance for disaster”? Established couples that frequently have sex with each other getting sloshed together and then having sex for the 20th time – unlikely to cause disaster any more than any other time they fucked unless they forgot birth control.
But someone getting drunk and having sex for the first time in that state – whether her partner is also drunk or not, this is highly inadvisable.
Very good explanation. It’s more about showing respect and restraint, self-control. It’s about not doing something someone will regret. You want your partner to remember your encounter fondly and seek you out for more. Not to be miserable and avoid you.
Things are far more fraught with someone new to you and especially with someone new to sex!
A very good take!
I also think *getting drunk with an established partner* is absolutely a valid, reasonably safe thing. But you don’t want your first time with someone to be forgotten and overshadowed by a hangover. Not that i put super big emphasis on first times (they are usually not as good as a bit later when you know each other’s and your own preferences a bit more), but it is still something you want to be consciously present for.
And the less experienced someone is with sex, the harder to know and voice your boundaries.
Oh, direct comparison i forgot to make:
Dina and Shirtless Becky are also drunk and doing shirtless things. I did not worry about them for a second. They are also still kinda new to sex, but they already established some conversations about sex, so i trust them much more to communicate about it even when drunk.
Asking the hard-hitting questions in the webcomic comments section, the true medium of societal philosophy
But generally if you were both drunk it’s just a potentially awkward conversation later
In theory there’s no way to know both peoples blood alcohol level at the time. In theory both could be prosecuted for it. Now, the reality is that if both are equally drunk only the man would be arrested and prosecuted. Convicted is a crap shoot. But I’ve never seen a time a guy was able to say they were assaulted due to being drunk and have the woman prosecuted, especially if both had been drinking. It may very well have happened, but I’ve never seen it in the news kr heard of it happening.
IANAL, but as I understand it the legal standard for unable to give consent due to drunkenness is a very high one. Not quite to passed out, but very close to that level. Not at the “my judgement is impaired”, but the incoherent and not really aware of what’s going on level.
And if both are at that stage of drunkenness, it’s not really possible to have sex, so there’s no real risk of mutual rape charges.
Now the moral concern definitely starts at a lower level, but is also more nuanced. The point here as aelfwine said above is to minimize the chance of one party having serious regrets afterwards and that’s something that’s very situational.
In my opinion, if you have to be drunk or tipsy to be able to ask for sex from people, aka loosen the nerves or whatever, that is a psychological thing that you should probably fix or is just a bad idea in general. In that sense, I would vote for never having sex with someone who is drunk. I also can’t imagine that impaired senses and coordination really help with having a good time if you are inexperienced either. If you are really worried about your nerves, be honest with your partner about that and go slowly. If it is the right person for you, they will work with you on it without using alcohol to impare your judgment and emotions.
Reminds me of thr people that say that they don’t actually trust someone until they have a drink with them. Seriously, if you need alcohol to get someone to open up and be honest with you, I think there is something wrong there, either with society or your social interactions.
Guys being assaulted is really something that should be talked about more and gets downplayed all to often when it happens IMO.
“if you need alcohol to … I think there is something wrong there”
well yes, obviously. But you’re saying as if it is unusual for there to be something wrong with people. We’re all broken messes. I haven’t met a perfectly undamaged person in my life.
Well, I think it is pretty obvious that nobody is perfect. I also don’t think that alcohol should be the thing society normalizes as how you overcome your insecurities. I did not mean to make it sound as if I thought that it was unusual for something to be wrong with people. It was more of a critique on how alcohol is viewed as a “cheap” solution and how we as a society don’t focus on improving mental health care and making it more affordable. You also can get that with medications, and wanting an easy fix over long term change.
The thing about not actually trusting someone until they have a drink with them isn’t about you needing alcohol to get someone to open up and be honest with you, but a test to be sure that they really are. Some people are good at hiding things, but that generally loosens and slips with alcohol.
Perhaps, but generally it involves everyone inbibing alcohol, in which case I am not sure that I would trust anyone’s judgement on what was actually let slip or not. It could also be something that they are working on and normally wouldn’t lose control, like anger management, but then they get drunk and lose that control. It could just be my thoughts from my personal experience, as a woman possibly on the spectrum. Society is often very odd to me.
My rule for me: if I have to be drunk to think that X is a good idea, X is not a good idea for me at this time.
The law has basically nothing to do with this. You have to be so drunk that you’re completely unable to respond to questions before the law will even care.
As for how drunk is too drunk… it’s a really gray area. Like personally I don’t consider my decisions made while drunk/high/tripping to be any less my informed decisions than when I’m in any other state. The idea of a singular conscious mind is a sham anyway. But not everyone sees it that way, and unless you know someone very well it’s better to be safe rather than sorry.
Basically. And the law kind of has to be that way. It’s hard to envision writing it any other way without leading to really bad outcomes if two drunk people have sex.
For more moral concerns, it’s very situational. The intent should be to minimize the chances of serious regrets afterwards, but without blocking things the people want to do.
I have this fun little picture book all about consent and while I think it’s a LITTLE over simplified and sometimes a little too demanding about very specific kinds of verbiage used to acquire consent, it’s doing so to present the absolute safest and most communicative setting. It’s also still nuanced enough to present the idea that intoxication isn’t exactly a one size fits all things and it explains that the important thing is for the intoxicated party, or parties, to still be cognizant and coherent to make their own decisions. BUT it critically cautions that if you are more sober than your partner and for even a second you doubt their ability to make that decision coherently that you have the responsibility to extract yourself.
From a legal standpoint, SA is also a crime of liability so if you’re too intoxicated to understand that they are too intoxicated to consent then you can still be held liable if the other party felt forced but the same can be said about you. But it’s really more about the morality than the legality
It gets really weird with alcohol because 1) there are no hard and fast measures you can use and 2) it can be a drunk person making the moves
I mean the last time Joyce was at a party she wasn’t drunk, since it was in Joyce’s room.
But yes, the FIRST time she was at a college party, she was drugged.
Prediction: the trend of parodying a bible verse in each alt-text during this party arc shall continue. Reaching a just but relationship straining zenith with Exodus 3:2
I was hoping for tomorrow’s being “And Joe saw that it was good.”
He’s trying so hard to not look like he’s taking advantage of her
I love new Joe so so much
He has shown real effort.
Man, I feel so bad for Joe. He’s really trying to reign himself in & be good, something that’s been such a huge deal for him since he was texting Joyce, but Joyce just wants to let it all loose & go out like she never has before.
& while I completely get as someone who was in a similar position, she’s definitely missing that Joe is also trying to change, but to be more ‘like’ her.
Perhaps she trusts him and appreciates how respectful he is of her. She can let loose because he has the experience to be in control of himself. He’s had plenty of sex already, he wants something deeper now. I want so much for this to work out for them!
just kiss who cares
Joe cares.
Sarah is here
i care
Wait have they kissed before?
No.
There definitely isn’t a panel of Joyce and Joe kissing in this or a similar pose.
This night is ending with a drunk Joyce asking Joe to have sex with her and a sober Joe – smartly, rightfully – telling her no.
And it will be great, and a good learning experience for both of them.
At this rate, next comic is going to be Dorothy offering to supply makeouts in Joe’s stead.
Joe: “I cannot in good conscience take advantage of this inebriated woman.”
Dorothy: “I can.”
Joe: “Well then.”
Mary Jane does the Spider-Man kiss. Emma Frost does the Spider-Man kiss. Skip the middle(spider)man?
This storyline is feeling pretty silly right now!
Every strip where things aren’t going wrong makes me more nervous.
Thank goodness the attention has moved on from the drama magnets… perhaps we won’t get the seemingly inevitable complete disaster? No one invite Jennifer!
Like the last one where everyone thought Joyce and Dorothy going out for under age drinking was gonna end horribly and it turned out completely fine and nice.
WHY AM I NOT BEING SMOOCHED UPON
the eternal human question
Book 14 Title? XD
“Because every straight woman in the room, and possibly the gay ones, think I’m a sexual predator, even though I’ve never done anything even sketchy. Not worth the risk.”
“Never done anything even sketchy” here meaning “have had threesomes with women I think consented easier because they were drunk” and “was a massive misogynist for most of my life”
Okay then!
Source for the threesomes comment: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/01-if-the-shoes-split/theplural/
Like, he’s changing and that’s great, but it doesn’t mean people aren’t right to be wary of a man who has previously given them plenty of reasons to be.
This doesn’t change your point much, but if I’m remembering correctly, I believe he later confessed to Danny that he’d never actually had a threesome. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, though.
But yeah, that only changes “had had threesomes…” to “has claimed to have had threesomes…”, which none of the other guests (other than maybe Joyce) are aware was just talk. And I’d still put under the category of Joe engaging in toxic masculinity in order to ape confidence.
Except for you know, the whole keeping a list in which he graded women and make comments about their bodies thing. That would been sketchy even if it didn’t get leaked, the fact he thought that was a normal thing to do in the first place was the problem
And the whole not interacting with women except to hit on them thing.
A lot of his thing was performative not real, but it’s hard to tell exactly how much. At the very least he was acting like someone who should not be trusted. He was a walking red flag, even if he said that consent was important. Lots of predators say the right things.
Did your email get unbanned, or is it more of a “new email, not noticed yet” sort of thing?
When I was a destitute 18 year old I too saw many dinners.
“whatever?”
Did they just committ to an orgy? what is whatever ?
I bet the whole coimment section is on this, like Zaphod
The “whatever” feels like a “we’ll see what happens”.
Is that anything like harboring perverse sexual lust?
To harbor perverse sexual lust is human as the sparks fly upwards.
Or something like that.
I think I miss Joe the leering finger pistols guy
I think that was Eric.
That was Eric.
SMOOCH UPON HER AND DESPAIR
I do think Joe’s not turbo comfortable with drunken Joyce, though it’s at least cute that he seems maybe okay with the double date suggestion. Makes total sense, though, as I think he’s kind of excited to *be* a boyfriend, like he seemed pleasantly nervous about holding her hand prior, for instance. That stuff’s new to him.
Yep. Seems like he’s committed to doing the right thing, and both (1) isn’t exactly certain of the fine points of doing the right thing, and (2) is warring against his own inner urges. So he _can_ remain mostly confident to let Joyce guide him through it, when he’s uncertain, but if she’s drunk, well, now he can’t rely on her judgement in that case.
Joe is trying his best to navigate a tricky social situation, especially since she’s been making hints the whole day that she wants to get dicked down, but he’s not entirely sure if she knows what she wants. But also a huge percentage of it is that he’s projecting some of his unwillingness onto her.
These are the things that make you miss meaningless hookups!
I notice ‘dicked down’ gets through the swear filters. Cute.
I think the only ones that get through the filter are the two gendered slurs that start with B and C.
(I mean don’t get through the filter)
What does C get replaced with ?
I think conga.
Ooh! A conga line!
(man, that considerably changes the ending scene of beetlejuice-the-first)
I don’t know what happens when you try to say other slurs. Probably an insta-ban or your comment doesn’t get published in the first place.
conga
I choose to believe you actually just typed “conga” as your comment… But did accidentally report it, sorry (those buttons are close together and my 4 year old is throwing a soft toy at me repeatedly)
That means they love you.
Just ask Walky.
Not the Soft Cushion,
( I looked up & this was changed to Soft Conga … before I hit send.
These Filters are STRONGA )
Typing Dicked Up to see what Goes thru
Dicked up
Dicked down
Dicked sideways
Peened up
Peened down
Peened sideways
This is for science, you understand.
I think it goes “up”, “down”, “top”, “bottom”, “strange” and “charming” ;p
Three quarks for Muster Mark!
Welp, looks good so far. Science proceeds apace!
Poor Joe
Struggletown
If Joe was just a little more experienced (in this context) and/or brave he would have told Joyce before all this started that he’s not having sex with her for the first time drunk.
with his “it’s not a keg” and (presumably) more experience with alcohol, he might not have expected anyone to get perceptibly tipsy
Coundtown to drunken orgy.
*Countdown. Dammit.
Incidentally, the drunken orgy may be held in Poundtown.
misread as “countdown to turning gay”
Misread to “countdown to drunken gay orgy in Poundtown”
I don’t think we will see any binary-option gay-ification, but we might see some spectrum-style queerification.
(that could might possibly just be me projecting…)
It’s the final coundtown.
I’m familiar with cowtowns, but not so much coundtowns.
Can we agree it’s not her last rodeo?
*ensues singing by Joey Tempest
Joyce thinks she’s being real creative because she never got to see Spider-Man 1 as a kid (then again now with the sliding timescale, that movie is older than she is…)
By the end of this party, I’m thinking Joyce will indeed be smooched upon, and not by Joe.
Joyce……… Walky is *right there*. This goes beyond roasting your friends, this is bullying.
Even if you have *reasonable concern* that someone isn’t *good* for your friend, talk to your friend in private.
But Walky isn’t a toxic partner. He’s goofy and in some ways immature (but then again, that’s what being 20 (?) is like for many people, and doesn’t mean it’s all bad. He complements Dorothy who is way too serious often.
The whole “you’re too good for him“ idea of people being at different “levels“ is crappy. Everyone is different people. Sometimes you aren’t compatible, but whether someone is popular or conventionally attractive doesn’t mean they’re a worse match.
I also hate Joyce’s attitude towards Walky. I think it’s partially caused by her jealousy, in fact, in that he takes so much of Dorothy’s time and attention away from her.
And I think the double date is really a disguise for Joyce and Dorothy hangout time. Like, they say “double date”, but in their subconscious it’s actually “best girl friends date, who may have a romantic crush on each other, but don’t realize it”.
This is fine.
Joyce and Walky have a thing going on. He said right in the last strip that he heard and cherished the implied “fucking” before his name.
No, you can’t say anything remotely resembling something mean to anyone ever, even if they are close friends that don’t mind it because that make you terrible and toxic and anything else I want to call them right now!
Are they close friends? Joyce is never nice or kind to Walky. She doesn’t even like him. They are simply in the same social circle, and have been in some classes together. If someone insulted me all the time, I would not consider them a close friend. I think he allows it because he is used to the bullying (from Jennifer and others in high school), and does not have enough of a spine to get angry and stand up for himself.
Walky doesn’t need to “stand up for himself” in this situation because he isn’t actually offended by any of this! He take it as a big joke, and he happily deliver it back at her, they have a frienemy dynamic, it’s not that hard to get.
Exactly he’s not offended, because he’s used to this kind of treatment from his friends. Friends who bully him.
Or, because it’s Joyce and he doesn’t take it seriously. Do you think someone who is being “bullied” fire back with his own comments like he does? It is a mutual thing, they poke each other because they are friends. It’s a thing many friends do.
Is it still poking fun when Joyce actually believes what she says? “Walky is a bozo who is beneath Dorothy’s station.” She believes Walky does not deserve Dorothy, because he’s a slob and a silly fool. And Walky agrees, I am sure. However, he does not need that kind of comment from Joyce (comments which she has expressed many times) because it simply doubles down on what he already knows are his faults. He already has a low self-esteem. Anyway, a lot of it is due to jealousy and resentment, but that does not excuse her mean comments.
Also, I don’t see how this is a mutual poking fun. Walky hasn’t yet said anything mean to Joyce during this interaction. The “fucking Walky” was unprovoked and uncalled for. It’s like she hates Walky just for being around and dating her BFF. (She kind of does)
Walky hasn’t said anything mean to her in this interaction, but he’s said shit in the past.
I literally cannot reply anymore, the button doesn’t appear, probably a good thing because arguing with you is exhausting.
I’ve had this dynamic with my dad and my sister, we had this kind of deprecating humor towards each other. Nothing really mean was meant by it, we did all love each other, BUT: it still hurt, because there’s always a pinch of truth (or a pinch of what you fear might be true because you are insecure about it) between the jabs. I think there’s been a part in my dad that *really* thought i was less competent in the things he made fun of me for. A small part, but still a part. And that did dig at my self-image. There’s a fine line with *not taking yourself too seriously* and *having a low self-image about something*.
I ended up standing up for myself and kindly asked the two of them that we stop this kind of humor. I’m doing better now that nobody makes deprecating fun of me.
I do think that you can lovingly make fun of each other, but there’s a line where it stops being fun, and you both need to be aware of that.
And i think this is a crucial point: if you ask someone to stop, will they stop? Or is their *fun* more important than my feelings?
Walky’s 18. His birthday’s April 1st, which is not for a few decades yet at the rate we’re going.
(It’s my headcanon that Sal is the older twin by just enough that she was born late on March 31st. But the Walkertons have always celebrated on Walky’s birthday.)
Joyce is also 18, until May, I think, assuming that her birthday’s the same as in the other universe. (Her middle name isn’t, so it might not be.) Dorothy’s 19. I think Dina is too… IIRC she’s actually the oldest of the freshpersons.
Walky and Joyce are fine. They snipe at each other, then they go have lunch together. They’ve got a whole antagonistic pseudo-sibling dynamic going. It frankly works a lot better for them than the designated OTP thing they had in the other universe.
Thanks you!
Better question why is Joe not drinking? Catch up man!
Joe definitely is holding himself back. Probably for concern about first-time sexual interactions with Joyce.
Yeah, Joe has had hookups before and (probably?) did some drinking at parties. His restraint is not only really cool here, it’s sort of needed.
Someone’s gotta be the centrifugal governor here.
Judging by the previous strip he is kind of suspicious of the booze Dina acquired illegally.
Drinking is not (or should not be) a contest. The fun of a party is not tied to how much alcohol you drink.
Joyce is really speedrunning her entire missed adolescence.
yeeeah, I feel ya…
Anyone getting Lucy and Dianne vibes? (Really this is just me curious about the EGS overlap…)
*Diane
This is totally Lucy and Diane, except there’s legitimate feeling for the cis men they’re both involved with, and, unless Joyce or Dorothy realize they’re gay, I’m pretty sure they’re pan/bi (egs Lucy is gay, as confirmed in the recent comics).
Oh I am a egs fan! Would love to see more content from these two comics. One person once mentioned the idea of Joyce and egs Sarah being relatives because they are both have brown as their last names.
It is absolutely horrifying how many people have ignored the repeated evidence of Joe being a good guy. The number of “Aww, he’s trying to be good” is insane. The comic has long established him as being sexually promiscuous, but very big on things like enthusiastic consent. I think some folks need to do some work on the idea that “sexually promiscuous ≠ immoral person”
Ginger Madman Johnson is RIGHT! /blazingsaddles
He wasn’t judged for being sexually promiscuous. It was for being an asshole about it (whole list thing for example).
GingerMadman’s point is about “trying to be good” comments in this context. He has always been portrayed as “good” in the context of his partners giving consent.
He’s never been portrayed as a rapist, if that’s what you mean. That’s not quite the same. He’s been portrayed as objectifying women, as not taking no as answer until he’s yelled at or threatened.
It’s been at least questionable how good he was on consent, partly because we never saw Old Joe’s game in a situation where he didn’t get that hard forceful no. We never saw most of his hookups. We never saw him at the drinking parties it’s implied he’s been to, which is where most college hookups happen and where the most questionable stuff occurs.
That said, I think “trying to be good” is the wrong framing for Joe here. He’s trying to navigate an actual relationship and he’s desperately afraid of screwing it up and hurting Joyce.
Yeah but I feel like being a real asshole doesn’t necessarily escalate to disregarding consent.
It’s like… just cause he parked his car across two spaces all the time doesn’t mean he’d be the kind of guy to do a hit and run.
Those rose-colored glasses aren’t doing you any favors.
I mean this comments section will rip in to characters essentially just because they’re making emotionally immature and bad decisions (in a webcomic called dumbing of age, no less!), so it’s not surprising that annyoing fuckboy is equated to rapist.
No one was equating him to a rapist, shit.
I mean, if worrying about someone’s ability to consent is personal growth, then it’s kind of implied…
He’s doing more to show that he cares about the people around him being comfortable, which isn’t something he was consistent in previously. I don’t think people talking about his personal growth or trying to be “good” are talking about basics of consent. (Though with the enthusiastic consent, it’s not like he was always 100% gangbusters with that.)
joes lip bite in the final panel is cute
Also lmao Joyce and Dorothy sort of/sort of not getting more bold with the hints
Joe is being pushed into being the “good guy” he has been, all along. He is free of his father’s toxic influence (because “Joe the womaniser” is an obvious result of being around someone who REALLY IS a selfish womaniser, for most of his childhood and teens)
He has ALWAYS been clear on the subject of consent
He KNOWS he can’t win in this situation. He KNOWS that Joyce doesn’t really know what she is (apparently) asking for, and OTHERS in the room know or suspect that. He KNOWS that whoever gets the benefit of the doubt, it won’t be him.
Joe’s only option is to make sure Joyce wakes up safe, in her own bed (or Dorothy’s, he gets a free pass on THAT one) while he is seen to be somewhere else.
And he is OK with that
STRANGER: “Because you’ll pass out, headbutt him in the junk and the throw up all over his lap…?”
SARAH: “Wait, who the fuck are you??”
STRANGER: “Name’s Steve. I was eating cereal nearby and heard the commotion…”