The Dumbing of Age Book 14 Kickstarter is entering its third week, so hey, a surprise BEATRICE MAGNET! We all remember Beatrice. You can pledge for one (along with a free DOROTHY magnet) along with your fresh tasty book!
Up next? JACOB magnet at $50k and LIPSYNCING LUCY at $55k!
and yes you can read tomorrow’s strip early on patreon
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aaaaaand let the marathon of mayhem BEGIN!!! >:D
*pops popcorn and plays “Comedian Gallop” by Vassil Kazandjiev on hacked muzak*
On the subject of mayhem: Dorothy, you should know that opinions on that differ. Yes generally it’s polite to be showered first, but different strokes wasn’t just an 80’s sitcom.
just me asking previous partners to come cuddle after they’ve finished a workout and pouting when they decline and go take a shower instead
Would you like some help with that too?
Damn you for beating me to it!
(I was going with “I could help” xD )
Please don’t.
While I know some people who had sex in dorm showers, it never sounded like it was particularly pleasant. Those stalls are gross and tiny.
That’s why the foursome I was in always used the floors guest bathroom. It was bigger, had a full-sized bathtub with shower, and most importantly it had a lock
“Always”? Like it was a habitual thing?
My life was and is SO dull.
Dormitories and everything about them are why I kept my, aheh, affaires… off campus.
Well, except the one. We got Canada married once that was legal.
Hmm. Only dorm showers I ever had sex in were not communal. One was a single room with its own full bath, the other was a weird configuration at the entrance to the room but was just for my GF and her roommate.
I didn’t ever live in a dorm, lived with parents for undergrad and had my own bathroom, and apartments in grad school, so own bathroom there too. Shower sex happened most of those places, but wasn’t common, usually just used a bed.
Joyce would need to wear her jug shoes. A sexier accessory (ac-sex-sory?) for sex has never been invented.
Jugs all the way
Carla would be hilariously mortified to know she made the most potent sex aid on campus.
Meh, not _that_ terrible. I mean, SOMEone’s gotta do the breedin’. Elsewise, species goes extinct.
Joyce is a Juggalo, confirmed.
Directing one’s gaze closetward has to be the best pun in awhile
If that’s not the name of the next DoA book, then it by the gods should be the title of some upcoming product!
sexiest… sweater. Brain does not compute the concept
Look up “sweater milkers,” and you’ll understand. NSFW warning though.
As a fan of women in sweaters, thank you.
It’s not difficult, just don’t put anything else under the sweater, and you’re basically already halfway there. Making sure the sweater uses a non-itchy yarn is the other 50%
google “virgin killer”
uh, that’s probably gonna send me to that one Scorpio album cover and I’ll pass.
Not if you tack “Sweater” on the tail of that string. And make it an image search.
Scorpion sweater, got it
It protects frogs during river crossings
lol, lmao
This is the most immoral comment I’ve ever read on this website.
Sweater vest, sexiest sweater vest. Different.
I’m sure translucent ones exist but i’m picturing like a sleeveless crop top ver of it or so
There are loose knit semi see through ones. A friend of mine (who almost always dresses in black) favours those, and they look very nice.
There are definitely sweaters that can be sexy. Sweatervests are a lot less sexy to me, though not completely un-sexy depending on how they’re worn.
I think Joyce has done perfectly well just by popping an extra button on the button-down she wears UNDER any sweater vest.
I do feel obligated as a queer person to say her sexiest sweater vest is one of her plaids, though.
oh my GOD it keeps going!!!!!!! and dorothy’s poker face is UNIMPEACHABLE
Maybe she has what it takes to be President, after all….
Glasses and Jugs episode 2
That is a bold strategy Dorothy, I do not think it’s going to pan out for you.
Have some popcorn.
Receive this “+1” in the spirit of “YUS.”
Would Sydney give this a +1?
I dunno, how do we know her burgeoning bi-ness isn’t just a step on the way to discovering she’s pan?
Okay, fine, this isn’t EGS.
I’m so confused by this comment. Which EGS character identified as bi before identifying as pan, even?
Like. I can think of one who identified as bi before deciding she was more of a lesbian, and I can think of several characters who identified as straight before realizing they weren’t really, but I can’t think of anyone who identified as bi and then later came out as pan.
And I kind of struggle to think Dan would have done that, given the intercommunity disagreements about whether there’s any difference between bi and pan, without then feeling the need to apologize for stepping in that discourse.
Sorry, maybe I was being too flip. I admit I’m not up to date on said intercommunity disagreements, and I absolutely agree about how Dan would apologize.
It was just a light-hearted reference punning on Thag’s “pan out” to how (or rather the reputation EGS has that) every straight character in EGS will eventually become much less straight and much less cis the more time they spend in the story. (And before anyone says Edward, I’d say falling for someone from another species counts as some sort of queer.)
(It’s sad I feel the need to add this, but this is in no way a criticism of Dan or EGS)
Gotcha.
I also love both strips
(Also to clarify my own comment: I think Dan would’ve gotten negative feedback on that and felt the need to apologize for it, and I feel like I would remember the strip for the apology if nothing else? If that makes sense.)
Oh, I think it will work out, bi and bi.
Joyce pulls actually.
Okay, this is getting wholesome and adorable again.
(Also, I know she’s flashed more on the other patreon, but Yay! Joyce in bra!)
I’ve got 50 bucks that says Dorothy suddenly kisses Joyce. Another bets?
Oh, no, not again. Another sister that suddenly kiss her
Joyce does NOT see Dorothy as a sister
So would you like to pay cash or credit.
or sarah walks in right when joyce is like ” can you help adjust my bra”
50 bucks says it’s Joyce who makes a move instead
No bet, no bet.
I’ll see that, and raise another €25 that as it happens, that’s when Joe walks in.
I am still unclear what Joyce thinks a platonic way of teaching someone to have sex would involve.
Have some popcorn,
Watching her undress and try on sweater vests while telling her if she should shower or not clearly.
I’m betting if Dorothy swam out of sea of guilt and self-doubt long enough to ask, I’m betting Joyce would be just as unclear (and was hoping Dorothy would know).
she’s cashing in her jennifer-approved Bang Your Bestie Once coupon
Well Dorothy taught her to masturbate platonically (sort of) so why wouldn’t she think Dorothy would come up with a strategy here too?
I have a feeling every strategy Dorothy is coming up with today is bringing Dorothy a lot of shame.
Joyce might ask Dorothy for advice on how to pose for Joe.
How to undress in front of him.
How to undress him.
What always-successful dirty phrases to use.
All of these are excellent setups for someone to walk in.
Alt-text: wifecoach.
See? See? It’s author suggestion. Not me. haha
It wouldn’t be the first time they were married.
Joyce whipping out the Tony Shalhoubies.
It’s interesting. Panel 2 and 3, Joyce is right in that Dorothy is acting differently. This is much more flustered than she was during the laundry machine incident, where Joyce was getting off in her panties without Dorothy looking away or being shy. Of course, Joyce is wrong about WHY Dorothy is scrutinizing this more than before.
“Tony Shalhoubies” is an excellent phrase! Liz from QC would approve!
Cute faces in every single panel.
This is a completely normal interaction and everyone who was borderline panicking about Dorothy’s potential behavior shall feel the wrath of my general aura of humbugitude
I was away for a few days (and therefore missed the comments sections) but it looks like that was a happy accident! Today most people seem confused about how sweaters can be sexy which, while ridiculous, isn’t close to the weird accusations of yesterday.
Oh yeah, it was fairly annoying. As for sweaters, it’s like these people have never seen Scooby Doo. As Jennifer says Velma pulls.
I reported the worst comment I saw yesterday and it got deleted.
Still plenty of weird tho.
I’m reminded of that Will&Grace episode where Grace had to “corrupt” Matt Damon. XD
Or, hear me out, same dress she wore on her other date with Joe at the beginning of the semester.
I don’t know… he might get flash-backs of that previous first date (and all the punches he received from Mike) and ruin the mood.
Perhaps the dress she wore to church one time to impress Jacob would work.
Don’t forget the punches from her too.
Sometimes the alt text makes me imagine willis saying it in the corner of the comic like stan kelly
That’d be a good userscript. Short alt-text? Bubble overlay.
Crying Liberty if the character count is even.
Sickos: “Yes! Ha ha ha! Yes!”
alright this page single handedly turned me against dotty
natural musk is the most important aspect of hanky panky
Her most villainous act by far.
You and Napoleon Bonaparte.
Please, no. There’s enough Elon in the world as it is.
If there’s enough of it to be called “musk” you definitely need a shower first.
Need the last three panels of this strip added at the end of today’s.
Absolutely correct!
Is there a strip that doesn’t?
It’s honestly remarkable that Joyce can be this oblivious to the effects of her actions. What sort of mental gymnastics class has she taken to not interpret any of this as gay as fuck? Even with the presumption of straightness, she’s sending out more signals than a secretary of defense.
For Joyce’s pov, she’s just changing her shirt. There’s an idea when it comes to women that it’s okay to change in front of each other. And, for Joyce, she’s definitely seen Sarah in a shirt and undies. Depending on how much you wanna interpret certain jokes as totally real or not, she’s also seen Sarah strip naked to get busy with ‘other Jacob’ and it wasn’t gay because they’re roommates and neither are interested in each other.
Personally, as someone who is AFAB, I never understood it myself. I mean, I did change my shirt in gym in the locker room near other girls, but it made me uncomfortable as hell and it was the only time I’ve ever changed near someone else who wasn’t family. But I can understand where, for Joyce, she’s not really being ‘gay’.
When I was in high school, I was in tech crew, and during the musical my senior year, there was a part where one of the actress’s had a quick change. Usually a certain tech crew member was on hand to help her, but during one performance, that person wasn’t where she usually was, for whatever reason. The actress grabbed me because I was nearby and pulled me into the dressing room.
I was generally out at school by 11th grade (came out to my English class during a lesson), and in 12th grade I had been very openly queer. As a queer person in female spaces, it felt like there was a lot of pressure to not be “creepy” or “scary” or whatever. Some of this was probably internal, but it was also based on comments I heard from others.
Anyway, I was in the dressing room with her as she’s trying to change costumes, and I was trying *so hard* not to look at her, which was extra challenging because it was a room full of mirrors and again, was supposed to be helping with a quick change. So I was there being awkward, and she went, “Oh my god, I don’t care what you like, just help me change!”
I chuckled (while also cringing a tiny bit in recognition), so thank you for sharing.
Plus Joyce had been made fun of for not wanting to change in front of others, last semester. It’s entirely possible that this is her trying to be what she got the impression is normal.
That’s true too! Plus with her brief tease in panel 3, she’s obviously just having a bit of fun and being silly, not actually trying to seduce Dorothy or something.
I’m pretty sure everyone in gym class hated locker rooms, haha. Close friends can have a familial lack of boundaries sometimes, though. I even went skinny dipping with one friend, to bathe on a camping trip while observing lake safety. (It was twilight, so we didn’t really flash each other.) I wasn’t attracted to her and stayed oblivious to my orientation until years later, so it was no more awkward than changing around relatives.
Good point!
It’s just a bra, dude. No gymnastics required, some people just don’t give a damn if their bestie sees their bra.
Truly, a bra is more intimate than a bathing suit by nature of being underwear, but it’s (generally) not more revealing than bikini tops that one might wear to a public pool or beach. I mean, when *I* was a teenager, I would have been bothered by someone seeing me in my bra, but it also makes perfect sense that someone wouldn’t be.
In context, there’s some vibes. But I think there’s a lot (this included) that on it’s own would be like, “well, that’s not that odd for friends.” (And a lot that’s uhhh, and helps give the context to make other things seem uhhh too. But Joyce isn’t analyzing her life for that, so it doesn’t stand out as much.)
shit, plenty of people are comfortable walking around or exercising in one, albeit typically a high performance sports model
I’m about to use a bunch of dumb terms I don’t have better ones for, but they’re filtered through my experience growing up as a bi girl.
*This* is a normal part of girl culture and greatly relieving to me because it shows that Joyce was not in fact deciding to take Billie’s stupid af advice after all. It’s normal for friends to undress with each other and help with undergarments or inspections and stuff like that, even if it does get weirdly grabby or weirdly intimate after this (the key word being “weirdly” because it has a way different vibe than romantically I just don’t know what it’s called because platonic boob squishing is not a sentence that makes sense to the uninitiated). This is not the laundry room situation which was very far over the line of girl culture and not a thing people actually do outside of certain websites.
*This* stuff is also why Dorothy really should tell Joyce about her crush. I don’t think Dorothy’s necessarily doing anything wrong by not, but it’s part of the culture I had to step back and away from when it involved my crushes. I know people act like it’s pearl clutching, but if you did this around a guy friend who was secretly crushing on you and he said nothing, most women would be freaked out in hindsight because it’s a vulnerable situation and most importantly they aren’t mind readers. Whether I agree with it or not is irrelevant, because it’s reality and I’ve suffered consequences of lost friendships by not doing so [and curiously have NEVER suffered losing a friendship by embracing my full disclosure policy about crushes with men or women, so I stand by my position.]
Like, I doubt Dorothy will experience any realistic backlash for this. Which is good I like Dorothy and don’t want her to suffer. I greatly dislike most people in the comments brushing off people’s concerns because a lot of them are based on actual lived experiences of being in this exact situation. Falling in love with your friend isn’t exactly a rare thing, I have only exclusively dated friends.
I agree that a lot of women would freak out if a guy friend had witnessed them in a bra while secretly crushing on them, but.
I think that has more to do with how society trains women to view men as dangerous predators than anything else.
I also feel like that is much less likely to happen in the first place unless the guy friend actively went out of his way to lie about being gay, because this same “men are dangerous predators” mindset makes women suspicious of and unwilling to be in a bra in front of men without some kind of big reassurance.
Credentials: I grew up as a woman* who thought I was a lesbian and I’ve had multiple guys I thought were friends turn out to have Secret Crushes on me, and it did make me feel uncomfortable around them for a bit, but a.) there were other factors (the two who did this while I was a teenager were both older than me, and it was late at night during a sleepover when they each confessed), and I got over it.
I don’t think I would have taken off my shirt in front of either of them prior to their confessions, because see again everything in my earlier paragraph, but if I had done that while they were still in the first few hours of realizing they had crushes on me, I wouldn’t assume they were assholes for not saying anything immediately, especially if they made a point of not looking at me.
* and b.) I got over it.
Also the asterisk is because I’m not a woman. I’m also demi/bi/pan. But thinking I was a lesbian is relevant because I also told both of them I was a lesbian, and that added to the discomfort when they told me they had crushes.
One of them, the guy I DID NOT stay friends with, later told me “if you ever need to be sure ;)”
But that was him making a creepy choice, not just the basic fact that he was a guy who had a crush.
(And then I blocked him!) (The other guy proceeded to be a normal human being, and we are still friends.)
Also heck I’ll even defend the creepy guy. He was an awkward AF teenager trying to navigate having a crush.
Doesn’t mean I should not have blocked him, but does mean I’m glad he wasn’t permanently #canceled on social media for saying a weird thing to me when he was seventeen.
yeah, usually a good idea to wash of the day, before the end of the day activities.
When did Dorothy see Joyce in her underwear? Is that a common occurrence or is Joyce speaking in the more general (they’re both women so it’s okay) kinda familiarity way?
I guess maybe during showers? I just remember a lot of the girls walk around in towels. Sierra possibly even naked if I recall. I don’t remember if Joyce ever did that.
Nude november
oops, forgot the link
And this time, Joyce takes off her shirt a different way so as not to get stuck.
it’s too late now but you might want to consider buying a sexy lace bra rather than this brown/beige monstrosity
One day, Joe will be in a long term committed relationship, and he will understand the sex god aura that comes from your spouse’s brown/beige bra that actually fits them
the comfiness is so compelling!!!
I have to admit, I never really ‘got’ why lace bras/panties were supposed to be sexy. They both cover up the ‘naughty bits’ in pretty much the same way, one just uses a different fabric than the other (and might be slightly more revealing).
For me, a “sexy” piece of lingerie is something like a “baby doll”, something that has a different utility than “still a bra just made with different material”.
I think it’s supposed to be the slight transparency?
They’re a little fancier than most day-to-day bras. It’s the difference between plain wrapping paper and the kind with the raised pattern.
Also, if you know the person usually wears plain cotton or sports bras, it’s a lil extra effort and a little extra titillating
Context isn’t everything, but it helps.
My issue is that certain sizes are only in “utilitarian” colors, and being just above the pretty and cute bras didn’t help my self esteem. I finally lost enough weight to drop down into lacy territory and found a love for front clasps. And then I started taking progesterone which is moving me back towards beige and black only.
Certain sizes are only in those styles in, like, American bras.
I’ve never been “matrix-sized” so I import bras from Poland.
http://ewa-michalak.pl/
(Of course the last time I bought one was pre-tariff, not sure how expensive it’s gotten.)
This. so much this.
I’m going “hurrhurrhurr” at your pun.
i don’t think it looks too bad but knowing joyce surprised it’s not like a cute pink or pastel blue. …or that dexter/monkey master pattern like her leggings
From experience, she likely wouldn’t be able to find one in her size on short notice or a reasonable price. Once you get above like a B they usually only come in military grey, black, or the least attractive plainest shade of red you can find. And the lacy ones look terrible because they’re all military padded up. It sucks because you see all the cute patterns that literally everyone else gets to have.
Military beige*
Directing you at my link above!
https://us.brastop.com/
UK bras are also better!
if you are not in a certain range of sizes that’s what you get. I’m a 50DD and you are thrilled just to get a color.
That’s not my personal niche (I’m in the “small band big cup” nightmare instead), BUT googling still turned up options! The first option with purple and white plaid is esp cute imho, and it’s on sale
I’m probably late to the party, but I just noticed that the cast page has been updated to include Charlie, Tony, Jocelyne, and Alice.
They had to wait until there were enough new/reintroduced recurring tertiary characters to make up a whole row.
I have been where Dorothy has been. Helping your best friend have a good relationship but having a massive crush on them and they will never even consider thinking of you like that FEEL MY PAIN!!!
tbh i do think that Joyce *will* think of Dorothy like that but like, Dotty doesn’t know that
god these nerds. GOD, these FUCKING nerds would have so much handholding if allowed…
Finally, something that Dorothy can comment on without feeling extremely uncomfortable.
That said, I’m begging y’all to shower before sex if you know it’s coming. Giving head to someone who has a day of sweat built up is just miserable.
This, this, this. Also, not washing your dick, hands, and face at the bare minimum can cause infections in your lady. And at that point you might as well hit a shower before heading out.
I don’t find it all that unpleasant.
Nothing like the awareness of one’s body odour to deflate the tension.
Anyone know where Ana Chronistic is? She’s been absent. Is she okay?
Nobody is okay.
I’m okay! (Trust me.)
How’s the song go?
Most people are not OK
And they’re slackin’ cause the job ain’t done
Got some ideas on the way it should be
But mostly they just carry it on
It’s probably none of our business if no one has told us.
Agreed.
I think there’s nothing wrong with “I miss Ana Chronistic’s comments!” Or “Ana Chronistic, if you read this, I hope you’re okay!”
But yeah. Even if this were pre-Musk Twitter, instead of the comment section on a web comic, I think it would be a lil bit weird to ask if anyone’s seen a user or knows they’re okay. Sometimes folks just don’t comment for a while for no reason! Sometimes they don’t comment for a while for personal reasons. Either way, we’re all strangers to each other, and don’t really get to know anything we aren’t told by the person in question directly.
slipshine when
Will probably be on the NSFW Patreon tho, given Slipshine would have to commission Willis to make it happen on that site :p
Unless they already have.
Some previous slipshines were well integrated into the main strip’s story arc and Willis has had most of a year to plan this.
It can be non-canon, AU. “What If?”.
Slipshine (which must commission works from Willis) OR damnyouwillis69 patreon (which he creates under his own control).
to clarify, i can go to slipshine at any time and say “hey do you want to commission these pages from me” and if it’s in the budget (i’m expensive but tend to be worth it) they will say sure
How does it feel to be able to say “I’m expensive but worth it”?
L’Oréal Willis
Ahh, excellent clarify! Thanks!
Hey look, Dorothy is exercising basic self-control and not sexually assaulting her best friend just because she’s attracted to her.
… the comments section still gonna be a repeat of the whole laundry shtig aint it? XD
No, it’ll be worse this time because Dorothy has admitted to being bi and uncomfy with her OWN actions so some people will see that as a fact rather than a character opinion.
The absolute disease of taking anything a character says as a description of in-story universal laws, aye.
This, unfortunately.
The laundry room incident was characterized as [frankly triggering shit] long before any of Dorothy’s haters had any reason to think Dorothy would be interested in Joyce like that.
Basic self control would be making up an excuse to leave rather than surreptitiously creeping on her unaware crush, if we’re going to be uncharitable to people we disagree with about the implications of this storyline.
She’s not gonna molest her. Give up on that dream.
good grief it’s like people WANT the sapphic girl to be predatory.
…what’s that? it’s a common homophobic preconception/rhetoric that causes real harm especially to young girls trying to make sense of their attraction? say it ain’t so
This is why I was rooting for Dorothy to have some self-control here and NOT be a creeper, but the doomed ship must sail, I suppose.
sorry, I was obliquely calling you homophobic, not Willis’ writing. I guess that wasn’t too clear.
I mean, you could call me that, but you’d be wrong. I find this kind of thing just as creepy in hetero contexts, frankly, although it does appear I’m in the minority on that.
You also just have a different view of what’s creepy than some people here. I don’t really ship Dorothy and Joyce, but I also don’t think Dorothy is being creepy here. If I learned that a friend I had previously changed in front of had a crush on me, I would not care about that “I changed in front of them” part.
And then there are the people who, on learning they changed in front of their secretly gay-for-them friend , would simply say “You’re welcome.”
I honestly think that’s where Joyce would land with it, if she really isn’t attracted to Dorothy at all (which I doubt, a lot, but IF), because she’s been so very clear about thinking Dorothy is the bestest prettiest most wonderfulest girl on campus.
She’d take it as a HUGE compliment if she knew Dorothy had a crush on her.
Hell, look at her “Oohoohoo! Is that so~?” type behavior when Joe confessed his romantic interest. I bet she’d love to know she’s a magnet for hotties across the spectrum just for being unapologetically herself at all times.
I actually SPECIFICALLY said I thought she’d react to it a lot like she did with Joe, a few days back! For similar reasons. She’s identified Joe as an objectively handsome slab of man since… well, technically since she first met him, haha, but even when she was mad at him after their failed date, she still identified him as objectively handsome, and took his attraction to her as a feather in her cap, so to speak.
Gosh golly, it sure does look that way. And it’s disgusting. People need to be better, and that can start with understanding the comic they bleat under on a daily basis.
I didn’t say “molest”, I said “creep on”, which is what it is called when you are looking at someone in a state of undress while they don’t know you are attracted to them.
No, she’s deliberately looking away. That’s the opposite of what you’re saying.
Willis, do you sometimes post alternate versions of the strip that only show up for some of the readers and not the rest of us?
I’ve said other times that I give Dorothy credit for looking away, but even being in the room is IMHO over the line.
Yeesh, just being in the same room as Joyce is creepy to you? That’s fucking gross and at least three flavors of -phobic. The problem here is obviously your own hangups, and I’m not a therapist, so let’s just drop this conversation before you say something you’ll regret.
The latent lesbophobia in this comments sections has always been completely off the chain, but it’s been particularly bad recently. People want completely innocent behavior from sapphic girls to be predatory soooo bad.
Lesbians and bisexual girls change in the same locker rooms as their peers. If that thought makes you uncomfortable, you need to examine your unchecked homophobia.
(Not you of course Taff. In general).
I mean, I’ll take it as personal advice too. Never hurts to have a reminder, and all.
I have no plans to regret saying “don’t put yourself in a position where you are seeing someone unclothed while you are attracted to them, unless they know you are attracted and not just a friend”.
I don’t even think that’s particularly controversial, frankly.
Shhhh, the adults are talking.
I know, I’m talking with them politely in another thread.
So how would you feel about Joyce and dorothy going to a beach? Would that be predatory of dorothy too?
I don’t know, how would you feel about me taking my shirt off in your living room and saying “but I wear the same thing at the beach”?
Context obviously matters.
Of course the beach trip was predatory, Seralyna. Walky was lunging out of the water at people like a shark. Joyce and Dorothy being in swimsuits together was incidental.
Seriously.
Dorothy’s not even looking at her, and it is literally impossible as a same-gender-attracted-person to go your whole life without ever being in the room with someone you’re attracted to while they’re stripping. That’s just a normal part of adolescence, because society is full of “””single-sex””” locker rooms and changing rooms. You’re reinforcing a lot of the same shame that made a lot of us feel sick about ourselves for no reason as teenagers and it’s gross.
Yeaaahhh a shower can’t hurt.
So, Dorothy, what is her SEXIEST sweater vest?
Whichever one she threw on the floor most recently.
The one with the deepest “V”, and either nothing or just a bra underneath.
Does Joyce ask Dorothy to help her shower for maximum preparation? Stay tuned until tomorrow!
If anyone was wondering (unlikely), this (Joyce taking her top off) is the point where I think you could argue Dorothy should look for a chance to bail and/or fess up about having feelings for Joyce, because it’s likely Joyce would be very uncomfortable removing her clothes in front of Dorothy if she knew.
I’m not 100% convinced either way about it and I certainly don’t think staying out of misguided intentions or just not being sure how to extricate herself would make Dorothy as monstrous as some people in the comments yesterday seem to believe, but I can see more of an argument here.
This strip actually makes me a lot less Concerned, because Dorothy was avoiding looking, and because Joyce thoroughly deflated the tension.
I still think Dorothy is likely to confess during this sequence but I’m no longer worried she’s going to cross any lines.
Those are good points and I agree! I don’t think either of them are behaving inappropriately within the already established relationship dynamic they have
It’s a weird relationship they’ve wound up with, but Joyce isn’t gonna be like,
internally when Dorothy comes out to her.
Me, too, honestly. I’m still very not comfortable (and I’m sure Joyce is going to be even more so when/if she finds out the truth) but at least Dorothy appears to be doing the bare minimum to not exploit this situation more than she already is.
“Exploit”.
That word is loaded like the gun at Texas Red’s hip.
Ugh, yeah, I’ll retract that word choice, it does not have the connotation I want in the broader discussion context.
Dorothy could be looking without Joyce necessarily caring, she is nonetheless not, this is a good decision on her part.
Thank you.
ehhh I don’t know. I’m thinking about Joyce going “it’s ok Becky, you can still sleep in my bed, I trust you” or specifically rejecting that she felt unsafe around Becky, even when she was kissed (“I mean, don’t do that anymore, but y’know. It’s okay.”)
I think staying here ultimately hurts Dorothy more than Joyce, and I’m frankly pretty uncomfortable of the notion ppl seem to have that Dorothy might assault her any second (not that you’re implying that, but some of these comments… man!)
Yeah tbh all evidence suggests Joyce would be pretty unfucked about it if she knew (though I’m sure the revelation itself would be an event). Having desire and perceiving someone at the same time is not predatory. Dorothy isn’t being a creep, she’s just a person with a crush on their friend. Just like Becky wasn’t creeping on Joyce for years prior to coming out. This is normal.
The thing that makes it not normal of course is the narrative weight that actions acquire by being in a story where stuff happens by design instead of real life where stuff just happens.
Plus it’s not like Dorothy has lied to Joyce or been otherwise secretive about her feelings for her. Dorothy has literally only been aware of her feelings for like… a couple hours. Joyce didn’t, prior to taking her shirt off, go ‘Popquiz! Do you find me attractive? If you do, I refuse to undress in front of you.’ and Dorothy didn’t lie and go ‘oh lol I’m so straight’.
Plus, I wanna remind people that Joyce canonically thinks Dorothy is ‘above her station’. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2022/comic/book-13/01-bring-me-to-life-drawing/disparate/ which to me means I think she’d be very flattered to realize Dorothy actually does like her and thinks Dorothy’s too good for her.
I think all the points raised in these replies are good ones
I might have gone too far in saying ‘it’s likely [emphasis added] Joyce would be very uncomfortable’ because I wasn’t considering Joyce specifically and her track record here, I guess I was more thinking in the abstract like that it would be fairly normal for that knowledge to recontextualise the interaction I guess?
You’re good. It made sense to be worried!
But yeah a few cues in this strip lowered my hackles personally
People who have a crush on someone do not owe that person a confession.
Queer people who have crushes on people do not owe those people a “coming out” and a confession.
The only thing Dorothy needs to do is not make this weird for Joyce, which she doesn’t seem to be. There is literally nothing wrong with dealing with your feelings in private unless it is important to you that the object of your crush knows about your interest for whatever reason.
You put how I’ve been feeling about this mini-arc in the comments of “Dorothy needs to tell Joyce NOW” into words. Like, yeah, Dorothy should obviously make sure she doesn’t send anymore tit pics as well as let Joyce know next time she sends a tit pic to the wrong person, but otherwise she doesn’t owe Joyce a confession. Especially when Joyce is in a relationship, and Dorothy kind of is in one too. So what would telling Joyce really accomplish? Only Dorothy can decide that, really.
Especially since I’ve had quite a crushes in my time and honestly, never told that person while I had the crush. Some of them, I told years after (especially if they were long time friends) but only because I felt like it and didn’t have those feelings anymore. Otherwise, it’s not like having a crush on those people turned any friendship hangouts, platonic hugs, or whatever else happens between friends into a sordid affair just because I had a crush.
This is a little different, because Dorothy has done stuff that she’s sees now as crossing the line. Motivated, even if subconsciously, by her crush.
And at least some of the calls that she needs to tell Joyce NOW come from the heavily teased expectation of something hanky-pankyish being about to happen. That changes the atmosphere of how the audience sees it.
Same, today made that part click for me.
In hetero teen romances, an oblivious girl being intimate or sexy around a male friend who’s crushing on her (“hey, can you apply this sunscreen to me?”) is often seen as cute or relatable. But in same-sex dynamics, similar situations seem to get a very different and much more vicious read, even when the context is played for comedy and horniness just as much as hetero versions.
Sorry Aura, I’m not tlking about you here, I’m clarifying ickiness I’ve been feeling about more extreme reactions I have seen lately, that feel like the bunny slope for more extreme homophobia and the justifications for harm against queers that sometimes stem from that.
Y’know, I’ll speak to that, too — I goddamn hate that trope in hetero teen romances, too, and I think the guys in those situations are being equally creeps.
I keep wanting to say “if that was, say, Walky instead of Dorothy but with the exact same history with Joyce otherwise, people would be screaming for blood” but you’re absolutely right that they would not be in other teen romance contexts, which is bullcrap IMHO.
Gently… I don’t think crushing on someone who doesn’t know about it is the same thing as creeping on them. Our culture tends to frame desire as a predatory mode, but it’s just kind of a thing most human brains do, whether or not they want to, and generating an expectation that people be extremely vulnerable about an involuntary behavior in a way that might harm their relationships or else be considered predators is… Maybe not the kindest approach we could take?
See, I think that’s too generalized to really represent how I feel about it, but see my comment to Li immediately below — there are a lot of specifics about what makes this feel creepy to me in a not-generally-applicable way.
I’ll also add here that there’s a fairly wide gap between “creepy” (this action has a reasonable chance to make someone uncomfortable, whether or not you intended that) and “predatory” (intentionally pushing past boundaries) that is kinda being danced back and forth over in this whole discussion, including a few times snarkily by myself. Dorothy is being, IMHO, potentially creepy. I’m not sure she has enough knowledge of what she actually herself wants here to be predatory.
Okay, now I feel kind of sorry for you.
There’s been a whooooole tidal wave of resurgent Puritanism among Gen Z and Gen Alpha, a whole lot of “crushing on other people without their consent is predatory! If you have a sexual fantasy about someone else, you need to tell them (confess your sins)!” and it’s extremely damaging to young people’s psyches.
If you genuinely believe that putting sunscreen on the back of someone you’re attracted to without “warning” them is predatory……. I’m so sorry that our culture has done that to you.
It’s not predatory. You’re not a predator just for feeling things. You’re human and you’re okay.
Having a crush is fine, full stop. Not telling anyone about that crush is also generally fine.
I draw the line in a very specific place. When BOTH of the following are true:
* you are doing some action that has both a platonic and a sexy context (“sunscreen”, “stripping to your underwear”, “backrub”)
* You have a crush or are otherwise conflicted about whether you can keep such action strictly platonic
THEN I think you owe it to said friend to make sure they know before such a thing happens.
@Big Z: doing those things is still not being predatory. As long as the sunscreen-application doesn’t involve actually copping a feel, or whatever. Platonic intimacy doesn’t become gross just because you like the person.
It’s a kind of private hell, to be performing that kind of platonic intimacy with someone you’re attracted to, when they don’t know you’re attracted to them. Dorothy is dying inside right now.
But she isn’t hurting Joyce.
If you’ve ever been Dorothy, you weren’t hurting the Joyce in question.
If you’ve ever been Joyce — you can’t control the discomfort you feel, but it’s important to realize that discomfort isn’t the same thing as harm.
I’ve been both, for the record. I’ve had homophobic “friends” ostracize me, I’ve had straight friends confess feelings to me in awkward ways or after awkward experiences. It’s all a very normal part of adolescence.
Maybe that’s the difference — I’ve been both, and I’ve had it made very clear to me that the Joyce in question DID feel violated, and I wasn’t particularly happy with being on the receiving end either (in the latter case, because the Dorothy in question made it clear that they interpreted my “letting thing happen in what I thought was a platonic context” as “me flirting back/accepting the non-platonic context”, which got VERY messy.)
I’m sorry that’s happened to you!
That Joyce was being a homophonic asshat, and you didn’t do anything wrong.
That Dorothy was literally projecting their own feelings onto you and trying to make them your responsibility, which is another level of entitled jerkhole behavior.
I mean, honestly, being that age suck whether it’s me decades ago or you whenever or Dorothy and Joyce in Present Day, but yeah.
The experiences themselves kind of set it into my head that, at least among friends, more information seems to work better than less in terms of avoiding negative outcomes (but let’s be fair, THAT is colored by the fact I’m a linebacker-shaped bear-looking pan dude, I’m not usually at risk for physical violence AND I’m usually assumed to be a couple steps more violence-possible than some average guy) and, on top of that, I much prefer to avoid any situation where I MIGHT make a friend uncomfortable or suspect me of bad motives, to the point that I just dislike “information asymmetry played for laughs between crush and crushee” in general.
Adolescence DOES suck, for sure. It’s often at least a little bit traumatic, if only because your first time experiencing something awful is always the worst. Later, with age and experience, you can at least tell yourself “I’ve survived this before.”
And yeah, we… all have our own hangups, our own baggage. Learning to recognize when something is a Personal Hot Button rather than a universal wrongdoing is a big part of processing and getting past stuff.
Sometimes it helps to have someone else hear you out and tell you, “No actually, you didn’t do anything wrong; the person who reacted that way was being an asshole.”
I hope it helps some for you.
I’m not gonna say you should never disclose, because you’re right that NOT disclosing can get you into trouble, and it might be worth the effort to avoid that…
But I am gonna say: it’s not fair that people have treated you as predatory for doing perfectly innocuous stuff!!!
Straight cis men shouldn’t get treated as ravening sex monsters by default. Neither should queer people of any gender or orientation. It sucks, and it messes you up for years.
I’m so sorry you’ve experienced that.
@Big Z
I am sorry that happened to you. I want to just like. Reassure you that people have emotional reactions to things regardless of whether or not they’re wrong in any meaningful way and you do not have to take responsibility onto yourself for other people’s unreasonable feelings, even if you gotta let them do what they’re gonna do with them (and sometimes what they’re gonna do is incredibly painful). I’m sorry your first friend was shitty to you about your feelings, that was shitty of them, and it doesn’t reflect on you. I’m sorry your second friend tried to overrule your agency in your relationship, that was EXTREMELY shitty of them.
I would still urge you to consider what kind of pressure the things you want from people create and whether those are reasonable things to ask of them, but I do also want to acknowledge that whether or not Dorothy is doing anything wrong or creepy this kind of story and this kind of scenario is a pain point for you and that’s okay. I am also not a fan of this storyline for reasons that are really about my personal context.
I just think a lot of folks (self included) would appreciate… I guess an acknowledged line between “I don’t like this” and “this is bad behavior,” especially where it interfaces with very common queer pain points.
@AK: Thank you for filling in the gaps! I didn’t mean to leave those, I got kinda focused on the other things.
@AK @Li
I do appreciate the consideration and the conversation.
Honestly, I spent a lot of this thread (and discussions of recent Dorothy+Joyce storylines in general) stuck on the fact that it seem so obvious to me that this situation DOESN’T resemble the queer pain points that have been brought up as parallels that I honestly feel like I live in a different perceptual universe, sometimes. And some of the accusations that resulted from that therefore felt like they were coming out of deep left field.
I do appreciate the distinction, too, but I still kinda DO feel like this is bad behavior — but, again, specifically for Dorothy in this specific situation, in a way that doesn’t even generalize to something like Becky and Joyce. And there’s a lot of nuance and tone here that simply doesn’t carry through in these little text boxes — case in point, a conversation above wherein I took a solid fifteen minutes to figure out an entire sentence to replace the word “exploit” which wasn’t QUITE right.
The kind of the bottom line for my own feelings is that Dorothy gives me the same feeling I would get around certain dudes in my fraternity that made me pull them aside and tell ’em to throttle back a bit until they figured shit out before they caused problems they didn’t intend to. And maybe “creepy” is too strong a word for that. “Predatory” definitely is.
I can respect your feelings on that even while disagreeing
I do think it’s a specific-to-sapphics queer experience in some ways because the boundaries are defined… differently. Not actually in a way that’s more freeing? In a way that I think I found harder to navigate as an ND queer person, because the boundaries are blurry — until they’re not, and suddenly you’ve taken just a tiny tiny quarter-step too far, and your whole friend group is ostracizing you for being Too into girls. THEY’RE all a little bi but YOU’RE too into women and it’s weird and gross.
Which isn’t to say that someone else who’s sapphic couldn’t also find this whole thing weird and unrelatable? Just that I think Willis did a really good job of capturing a particular type of fuzzy “straight girls are allowed this type of intimacy, but if you’re not straight it can be painful to try to perform that, and also you’re terrified of being found out”… thing.
Also-also: I wanna acknowledge for like the sixth time in the last month that a lot of us are probably extra On Edge right now, due to Circumstances. You know? I’m trying not to let it bleed over but it’s hard! Not to just be extra tense, and maybe extra quick to feel defensive.
Yeah, my partner has complained mightily over the years about the weird side effects of the gendered differences in socialization and how it makes sapphic and sapphic-adjacent relationships have some very different and transient rules.
I suppose it’s not particularly STRANGE to find that what looks like a logical/reasonable response in that context looks very different from a lens of someone who came up trying to be a halfway decent cis guy and what the signs that something’s not right are in THAT context. (I’m just glad Joe’s got himself on what looks like right paths, I hated him for YEARS. I suspect I’ll eventually feel that way about Dorothy once she gets herself understood.)
Lord knows we’re all the hell on edge — I’ve got a trans partner and queer kid, it’s not a great time.
I blame the damn filthy Millennials for helping introduce language to talk about this stuff and then being too up our own asses to learn moderation or stop saying “it’s not my job to teach you” before people started being afraid to ask questions. Now it’s gone too far and it’s considered shameful and scary to feel the slightest attraction to anyone under any circumstances.
@Taffy: yeah I’ll take some ownership there.
I definitely think we kinda wound up conflating “I don’t owe random people the energy of a painstaking explanation every time they say something shitty” (which is TRUE) and “marginalized people shouldn’t all be expected to be professional educators and willing to debate their personhood at the drop of a hat with every bigot they come across” with “no one should EVER explain ANYTHING to ANYONE, and explaining basic stuff patiently is a sign of weakness, or coddling the enemy”.
The latter attitude has done a LOT of harm.
No white supremacist, no queerphobe, no right-wing person of any stripe has ever said “it’s not my job to educate you”; they’ve all said, “come on in friend, let me explain in reassuring terms how actually that person whose feelings you hurt was being a huge fuckin’ asshole to you, and how you did nothing wrong”.
Their recruitment strategy is better.
There’s a reason the bad guys have such a huge backing. In what feels like a paradox or contradiction, they know how to make people feel safe and comfortable in their spaces. Our side is fucking terrible at safety and comfort (no, a fanfic tag does not count), and I think people are almost ready to start admitting it. Remember, kids, your shopping addiction is not a replacement for human connection.
For all the prattling on about social justice hugboxes, yeah, there’s no safer space than Fox News for conservatives.
Or 4chan, or Breitbart comment sections, or X dot com.
Fascism has a very simple explanation for why your life sucks, and an even simpler solution.
Yeah this has been. A wild and scary trend to watch from when I was in high school on, especially because it was obvious even early on how young men were responding to it. No one wants to be your friend if it seems like you hate them and you won’t explain anything to them! And we’re so so bad at making it safe to be wrong about anything for any reason, but people often have to be wrong and ask questions in order to learn. So if that’s unsafe to do they just. Don’t. Learn.
Different people would be screaming for blood. It certainly wouldn’t be me, because as I said I don’t believe having a crush obliges you to tell the object of your crush.
It’s not hypocritical unless it’s the same person excusing this situation and rioting about another. It’s just a website having a lot of visitors with different opinions on the matter.
Genuinely wasn’t intending an accusation of “hypocrisy”, rather making the observation that there’s something about the particular (sapphic) context of this that makes it feel different for some folks and not others.
@Wilde: Maybe I’m thinking of different teen comedies, but those scenes tend to be played up as sexy. If they’re also shown positively, that’s more the default misogyny than anything else.
Yeah, I want Dorothy to tell Joyce (not necessarily *now*– when her shirt is off might be weird timing) but I’m motivated by:
1. I read this comic for entertainment and I want to see what happens
2. Dorothy, in some moments, seems like she’s gonna explode, and telling Joyce might help lessen some of the pressure for her
I agree with everything you’re saying here
You’re coming across pretty strong there so I’m wondering if maybe you’ve read my comment in a different spirit than I intended it; it was a pretty contextual one responding to some of the discussion in the last few strips where people were arguing that Dorothy was being a monstrous piece of shit (actual words that were used -_-) for going along with whatever Joyce is doing here and not immediately coming out to her, which I think is kind of fucked up and absolutely not the case. TBH I was very confused by the furore around it, and commented to that effect.
This comment is more or less a follow on to that discussion; what I’m saying here is that in contrast to yesterday, this is the point where I can at least see an argument for saying that Dorothy having a crush on Joyce changes the context of this interaction to a significant enough degree that it could be considered inappropriate. I’m not saying I agree with that stance (and I’m pretty sure I was careful to make that explicit!), just that it wouldn’t strike me as being quite as out of left field as it did yesterday.
My comment was also a follow-on to that discussion and I am content with coming on strong about it since I feel strongly. I was adding how I personally felt on the matter to the thread, I didn’t call you out or pass judgement on you, I just replied to your comment.
Mmm, I disagree but only from kind of an omniscient-narrator position — I, PERSONALLY, would be comfortable changing around a friend but deeply uncomfortable to find out later that said friend had a crush on me and said nothing about it before I was half-naked in what I THOUGHT was a completely platonic situation — even if there was no intended or actual exploiting of my lack of knowledge to get me undressed, the possibility would be in my head.
Especially given Dorothy’s obvious averted eyes, if she never fessed up it’d be no harm no foul, but nonetheless I think if she DOES fess up that it will re-contextualize this moment for Joyce in a negative way (and some other prior moments, unless Dorothy time-stamps it i.e. “I didn’t figure out I was crushing on you until AFTER the accidental boob texts” or some such.)
This is also, to me, the difference with Becky’s approach to the same thing — the vibe I get is that Becky finally felt like it was possible to even think about and immediately went straight for it.
I appreciate that it would wig you out personally, but that doesn’t mean they’re doing anything wrong. For several people in the comments section here, getting undressed in front of a friend seems very weird indeed, that doesn’t make that action or your comfort with it wrong either.
Sometimes we get uncomfy despite the action causing it being morally neutral/fine. I think it’s unfair to use that discomfort to push other people outside their comfort zones. Some people get crushes, choose not to explore the option, and wait for it to pass. Others take a while to decide if they’re going to do anything about it. Other people are predatory about it and get creepy but I don’t see that from Dorothy.
I appreciate that you disagree, just offering a little more detail about why I think you can disagree, feel uncomfy, and still not change my mind that no one is obligated to come clean about a crush until/unless they’re ready.
I’m going to take this particular post to try to comment on the discourse, since I think it’s a good starting point for a response.
First, I don’t think anyone is obligated to come clean about a crush, but mostly that’s because I don’t think in terms of “obligation” when dealing with interactions between close friends.
I will say that if you don’t want to hurt your friend or make them uncomfortable, even retroactively, you (the generic you, not you Nymph specifically) might want to consider that some people would be uncomfortable in this situation. Not because you’re obligated or because it’s morally wrong, but because they’re your friend and you don’t want to make them feel bad.
Obviously this isn’t a hard and fast rule – not everyone feels that way and since they’re your friend you may have a good idea how they’d feel.
Back in the situation in the comic, it seems kind of weird to treat this idea as completely outrageous. Dorothy seems very uncomfortable in this situation and it seems very likely at least part of that is worrying how Joyce would feel if she knew.
Fair enough, that! I don’t necessarily NEED to change anyone’s mind about it, so much as I want people to acknowledge that there’s at least a POTENTIAL for bad behavior around it (which you yourself acknowledge) — I think reasonable people can disagree whether Dorothy has stepped over the “creepy” line (or is even moving towards it) but I was getting heated over the contention there’s no such line at all.
(And even “creepy” might be too strong a word — my actual feeling is probably closest to “if Dorothy were my fraternity brother and I were as in the know as I am as a reader of this comic, I’d pull ’em aside and say they might want to throttle back a bit until they had themselves figured out, lest they accidentally make Joyce uncomfortable.” But we don’t have a good single word I’m aware of for that particular feeling.)
Not that I’m speaking for myself or anything, but it’s entirely possible Joe might like it more if she didn’t shower, just saying
“Is My Burgeoning Hanky Panky Aura Too Intimidating”
Not yet, apparently.
I’ve never seen anyone call it festivities
Joyceapalooza
It is straight up happening dude
or rather bi up happening
Nah, fat chance we get more than teasing from the narrative. It’s too soon.
“Too soon! Joyce have awakened me too soon”
Boldly, you sought the power of Lesbnaros. (yes I know she’s bi, no I don’t think she’s secretly a lesbian, it just fit the pun better)
Saphranos?
No that’s that show about the mafia.
Pfft. I laughed!
Also I left out a ‘p’, which wouldn’t have made your response any less apt, but which does make it look like I don’t know how to spell Sappho.
My ship. After all this time. My ship is on the horizon.
Nah, it’s probably just the Spanish fleet.
Just in time to catch a broadside from the HMS Joeyce and finally sink below the waves forever.
“Let’s shower together!” (goes the commentariat in pervy glee)
I don’t know where this story line is going, but the possibilities all seem fun. Dorothy’s in a strange state, having gone from on a life path to drifting. Her mooring is the oblivious but loving Joyce, and her confessor, so to speak, is the person she might be most envious of.
…Why did I read Dorothys lines in the voice of Jonathan Sims today?
The Archivist was also in denial of many things. Including his adorable queer crush.
i mean i’m sure some ppl would appreciate some natural ‘musk’ but i wouldn’t think ppl would complain unless you skip a whole week. but i imagine she wouldn’t smell as bad to dorothy as walky would lol
That’s another thing you should discuss with Joe instead of Dorothy. He might be down for the musk.
Oh my god is Dorothy going to somehow manage to be helpful despite herself
I think Dorothy is un-clenching a little, which is good. it helps to remember you’re also dealing with: This dork.
This might be the worst impending trainwreck I have witnessed in any form of media
I cannot look away
Then your media choices must be fairly tame, because this is hardly anything. If you want some real damage, check out the Castlevania cartoon from Netflix. Lenore is a walking catastrophe.
I love that Joyce is being so smug about all of this. It’d be understandable if she was panicking (while still wanting it to happen), but how confident she’s being? I love this for her. I hope she keeps it up!
(poor, poor Dorothy tho)
Also, glasses come off before you get too hot and heavy. Those things are frail and get in the way a lot
Complete aside, but we don’t see enough of the Forest residents. That’s a very cute Beatrice character model magnet.
Joyce has come a long way since, well, this. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/02-i-was-a-teenage-churchmouse/dressing/
And this. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/jammies-2/
You know, all of this really changes moments earlier in the comic where people commented ‘yeah I do that for my partner’ to Dorothy and Joyce.
People laughed at the non platonic subtext.
Including the moment Dorothy got angry at Billie because ‘I’m the one who takes care of her’
I’m gonna be super uncharitable and say it amused people when the punchline could more easily be read as “haha gay thoughts”, but now that the gay thoughts are at least 50% canon, it’s suddenly Not Okay, and I wonder if that’s not people being uncomfortable with homosexuality. Maybe there’s not a gaggle of homophobes in the comments who can only handle queer behavior as a punchline, but I’m not seeing a lot of difference.
this
Meanwhile, I will die on the hill of thinking Dorothy’s behavior went from “mom friend who maybe needs some boundaries” to “actually starting to get creepy” the more we learn that she’s actually crushing on Joyce and both refuses to be honest with herself AND refuses to just say that to Joyce.
Like, “stripping down in front of a friend” and “stripping down in front of someone who is secretly attracted to you but not telling you” are two very different things, although it’s somewhat to Dorothy’s credit that she’s obviously averting her eyes here.
So, what’s the time limit, to you? The character is still in the middle of figuring out her own thoughts and feelings, with a matter of hours between accepting those feelings and this strip. Why is she “refusing” to say it to Joyce, according to you? Why does she have to have a big coming out to her best friend who’s asked for her help, when she hasn’t finished processing her feelings in the first place? Why does she instantly get chucked into the creep basket? You’re being unbelievably impatient.
I’ve said it in a couple other comments, but for me, “the object of my crush is undressing in front of me and I am not avoiding the situation or letting them know prior to that” is a position that would make me deeply uncomfortable in Joyce’s position.
Frankly, I think Joyce is going to feel very uncomfortable about a lot of things when/if Dorothy admits her crush unless she’s VERY careful to timebox it (like “I didn’t realize it until after the laundry room/boob pic shenanigans”).
Like you said yourself, you’re projecting on Joyce & her reaction re: all of this. We have a previous case of her reacting to a friend (her oldest friend!) with a crush on her & it wasn’t anything like that. Now I do think that this is a somewhat different case, but likely for way different reasons than you – i.e. Joyce has an amount of attraction to Dorothy aswell which she hasn’t processed either.(I know a lot of people bring up the “growing up with Becky skewed her perception of friendships with other women!” but she does just act differently when it comes to Dorothy vs Becky or any other friends.)
I mean, I also think the Becky situation was fundamentally different in that Becky basically did nothing even slightly untoward prior to (or after) shooting her shot — I interpret the other strips where Becky turns around (with Sarah) when Joyce is changing as evidence of that.
And it’s almost certainly my own biases that lead me to not see any unambiguous expressions of attraction Joyce has for Dorothy — I’m bad enough at reading subtle flirts in real life, let alone as a third party to two fictional characters.
That all said, I also had a discussion in another thread that really what’s going on for me TODAY is that I abjectly HATE this particular trope (one-way crush, innocent crushee accidentally being sexy) in any media, which I recognize puts me in some kind of minority at least as far as the het version is concerned.
Combine that with me really just disliking Dorothy as a character (which, at least partially, is based on her somehow having a worse version of my own college-freshman-year-reconfiguration-of-my-entire-life-plan) and I’m definitely being less charitable to her than I’d otherwise be inclined to be.
With those biases coming through, you might take a moment to think about how your comments might be coming off to others. Like, I’m not particularly into the Joyce x Dorothy ship, and I’m a long-time Dorothy-hater (she has been more appealing to me lately– I just haven’t found her to be particularly interesting to me throughout the comic, so she’d always be near the bottom of my list)–but your actions today have made me more uncomfortable than anything happening in the comic.
Which, you know, you don’t have to care about and I’m not your boss or anything. Don’t know if it’s something others are experiencing or not.
I honestly feel the same way about most of the responses DEFENDING Dorothy, TBH — I don’t understand how this is not even questionable to a lot of folks.
As far as I can tell, the primary objection to what I’m saying seems to be mostly that if you strip any and all nuance away from my position, it looks pretty similar to the homophobic trope of ‘never do anything with anyone who you might be attracted to, get out of the locker room, etc’, unless you’re seeing something different that makes you uncomfortable.
Yumi, I wanna say it’s not just you. The vibes are completely rancid, and frankly I apologize for engaging their shitty, harmful rhetoric as directly and maturely as I have, which can’t have helped. It’s obvious in hindsight that nothing I said was ever going to get them to stop spewing hateful bile, so I’m sorry for helping that proliferate.
Many of your earlier comments came across as homophobic, yes. I do think that has lessened as you further explained, but initially there were a lot of similarities to lesbophobic rhetoric in what you were saying. And there’s this variance of is this strictly about Dorothy in this exact situation or if it’s more general– and you were often bringing in more general framing. (“I didn’t say “molest”, I said “creep on”, which is what it is called when you are looking at someone in a state of undress while they don’t know you are attracted to them.”) You’ve also recognized some questionable phrasing you’ve used and corrected it (and thank you for that). So I do seek to give you the benefit of the doubt, but the things you said, not squinting, just looking directly at them, brought up a lot of pain points for myself and, it seems, other queer people.
having been someone who’s actually directly called you homophobic & having come back now to read more comments I largely agree with Yumi (very succinct! and very levelheaded which is honestly a breath of fresh air). I’ve also come to the conclusion that you have a different view on bodies & how they relate to sexuality in general in a way that’s probably pretty prevalent in western cultures but still feels very strange to me to the point I truly could not make sense of your arguments in any way but you being lesbophobic, which had me on a short fuse. Sorry about that. I still think you’re wrong, and went about stating your whole argument in the first place in a bullheaded way, but I appreciate that you’ve took time to explain your points more elsewhere. I probably would’ve stopped (well, I did. I just don’t have a commenters soul).
And I’m not being impatient, I’m judging Dorothy — she doesn’t need to have a big coming out, but she DOES need to have to go do her laundry/homework or something and get out of this situation that she’s putting herself and Joyce into.
Joyce invited her, not the other way around. Dorothy’s not doing a goddamn thing to Joyce. Last time a friend confessed an attraction to her, Joyce didn’t have the reaction you’re expecting, so why would she now? We have an entire 15 years of context and history for these characters, but you’re projecting your own boundaries onto them and acting like none of that history exists. The worst I expect from Joyce, having read the comic, is a comment to the tune of “Damn, this really just keeps happening, huh.” and then she keeps being best friends with Dorothy. There’s no urgent, pressing need for Dorothy to tell Joyce things she’s only just coming to terms with herself. Expecting it now now now now now is impatience.
IMHO it was on Dorothy to reject the invitation, and not doing so now that she’s aware of (and conflicted by!) her crush is further evidence that she’s too lost in her own miasma of issues right now to be thinking clearly enough to be a decent human being.
Personally, I think the Dorothy/Joyce shippers will excuse damn near any poor behavior from Dorothy if it makes their ship more likely, and y’all have blinders on about it. I think it’d be just as likely for Joyce to have a “Wait, you were ATTRACTED to me and let me UNDRESS in front of you?” reaction.
The situation with Becky was night-and-day different (not least of which because Becky for all her faults was very up front and didn’t sneak around with her affection once she realized she was into girls and out from under the religious haze)
Dorothy’s pretty much getting dragged along by Joyce while in the middle of an extended personal crisis. You’re imputing a lot of bad behavior and gross motives on Dorothy being here at all when it’s a lot more likely she’s falling into habit while still trying to process, habits which include a lot of reflexive emotional intimacy between the two because they’ve been through Some Shit together. And you’re also reducing it to some willful-blindness shipper crusade whenever someone just has a different read from you. Sometimes, wonder of wonders, people just interpret things differently! Without being villains, even!
Dorothy didn’t reject the request for help because Dorothy doesn’t feel comfortable saying no to requests for help.
When she did say no, it was so out of character, that Joyce took her to a bar hoping she’d relax and talk about what was bothering her.
In short, Dorothy’s questionable actions are from poor judgment, not predatory intent.
HueSatLight, I am in agreement on that (and was trying to indicate same with “she’s too lost in her own miasma of issues right now to be thinking clearly enough to be a decent human being.”) — IMHO, she’s not a predator, but she’s BEING creepy whether that’s strictly her intention or not.
Then we’re in disagreement. This is not Dorothy being creepy.
We can disagree there — I think at the very least she’s being unintentionally creepy.
It is not creepy to be attracted to someone and not tell them. It is human. It would be creepy if Dorothy used Joyce’s lack of knowledge about sex to manipulate her, but simply continuing to exist within their already established friendship dynamic while processing her feelings for Joyce is not. Having a crush is not creepy or predatory in any way. Dorothy didn’t realise she even had a crush on Joyce until the same day, she needs time to process. As a bisexual woman, I find it incredibly telling how a lot of people in this comment section seem to view just existing in a space with someone you experience a form of queer attraction to as predatory. It’s simply not. It’s a rite of passage to crush on your straight(?) friend. It’s a rite of passage to figure out if you’re flirting or just having a weirdly close best friend dynamic or maybe both. I enjoy seeing it, while not necessarily shipping them, it’s uncomfortable and feels familiar.
All excellent points, Lamppost! You put it very eloquently.
(And other phrases that would sound insane if read aloud.)
With respect, this is essentially the same logic that’s used to exclude gay people from a lot of public spaces. Does every lesbian who uses a communal shower have to reveal to every other woman in there that she’s a lesbian before she’s allowed to do it without being “creepy?”
Dorothy isn’t doing anything to Joyce. She was invited here. She doesn’t have a responsibility to avoid being where her friend wants her to be just because she thinks she’s attracted to her. Maybe Joyce would act differently if she knew, but that doesn’t make it Dorothy’s responsibility to inform her. Being attracted to someone isn’t a crime.
idk if i can edit the comment but i wrote “she thinks she’s hot” and then rewrote as “she’s attracted to her” and missed the “she thinks” so. rip
See, that lesbian shower example is good, because it’s often downright unsafe for said lesbian to use the same showers as everyone else once she’s Out. Before they knew, the other women probably wouldn’t have even considered her, but afterward some of them are likely to think she’s at least ogling them, if not masturbating to them in the shower. And then we get the preemptive violence and/or ostracization, which is basically what’s being demanded here. The message is a very loud “woman-attracted women should be isolated”, whether it’s meant to be heard that way or not, and I’m not kind enough to assume the not.
I’m coming at it from the somewhat-omniscient standpoint of knowing what Dorothy is thinking:
– I wouldn’t at all find it creepy for it to be Ruth or Jennifer or Dina to be in Dorothy’s position. The fact that Dorothy is not straight is not the specific issue, here.
– I would accept Joyce’s judgement on it being Becky, because Joyce is AWARE Becky is/was attracted.
– The issue is not Dorothy’s generalized (potential) attraction to women, it is her SPECIFIC, UNREVEALED attraction to Joyce.
As such, no, I don’t think any random lesbian has to acknowledge they’re lesbian to be in a communal shower. I think if one were about to go into a communal shower with their friend they were crushing on, it’d be part and parcel of being a good friend to either let them know or demur, though.
“It’s okay if you’re THEORETICALLY attracted to women but not if you’re attracted to any specific woman in the communal bath” is what you’ve said with the first bullet point.
I hope you can see what an unfair standard that is.
But given your last sentence, maybe not?
It would sure be nice if we lived in a world where no one ever had to worry about homophobic reactions to gay crushes, though.
We can definitely agree on that last point — homophobia can fuck off.
A lot of this conversation is down to some very nuanced points, IMHO, and really that’s the frustrating part for me — hell, just that first bullet, in my head there’s a clear difference between “attracted” and “crushing” (which in my head is more “infatuated” than merely “attracted”) that changes the entire context of it. And on top of that, this isn’t “a communal naked space like a shower”, this is a private one-on-one context into which Joyce is inviting Dorothy as a friend without knowing Dorothy has those other feelings. That feels icky to me, and it’s not something I’d feel comfortable with leaving unsaid if I were in Dorothy’s shoes.
Counterpoint: I don’t think anything about Dorothy’s body language so far has said she IS comfortable leaving this unsaid.
Like the point of this strip isn’t “Dorothy gets to see Joyce in a bra, hee hee, how ~naughty~.”
The point is very much, “Trying to be a good wingwoman for Joyce’s first time with Joe while concealing her crush on Joyce is (relatable, funny) agony for Dorothy.”
Yeah, I mean, on some level I do feel bad for Dorothy, because it’s clear to me that she wants something that’s not (currently/likely ever, depending on your read of the entire strip) on offer, but she also wants to be supportive of her friend.
I just would rather she’d landed on the side of “I’d better back off a bit until I can talk about this with Joyce and/or understand my own feelings — I wouldn’t want to risk Joyce getting the wrong idea about my motives.”
I’m actually more creeped out by “mom friends” who are excessive about it than by the way dorothy’s been handling a crush kinda poorly tbh
Absolutely fair, although I think those two thinks are interrelated in a way that makes them both feel worse to me.
It’s nice to see Dorothy finally feeling more relaxed around Joyce. Let’s see if the anxiety will return when Joyce undresses more or not. Joyce is really starting to notice… I wonder how she’ll react once she realizes it.
I typically prefer showering after (both for me and my partner).
Reason: I sweat a lot, we have to keep the windows closed for fear of annoying the neighbors, we live in a subtropical climate, and we don’t have AC. Any attempt at avoidiv BO stops working within minutes, and its really bad for your skin to shower more than once a day (in fact arguably it should be every other day).
Plus you get post hanky panky showers which are nice.
It’s kinda both for me, depending upon the day/climate. If it’s been an absolutely muggy/sweltering day and you’ve been stewing in your own sweat all day, it can indeed be a very good idea to get cleaned up first. (But on the flip side, sometimes you get those days when your partner just smells absolutely divine even though they haven’t cleaned and you just want to jump them immediately.)
And likewise, if you’re going to be heading out/doing other things afterwards, cleaning up is always a good idea. But sometimes, if you’re not going anywhere, it CAN also be really nice to just… cuddle together in the aftermath surrounded by the musk of passion.
Both! Both is good.
Too bad Joe is actually into the natural scent of a woman. Pheromones or whatever. Dorothy just sabotaged the whole night!
I’m so on edge, I feel like the BEST case scenario is Dorothy keeps her cool and helps but really should have put up a boundary because Joyce will do the thing with Joe and in the afterglow say something like “I’m so glad I got Dorothy to help me figure this out first” and then a whole miscommunication will happen with tears and everything…. Ya that’s probably the best case scenario…. Jeez…
The only tears I see in the near future are happy ones between Joyce and Joe.
Gonna keep waiting to answer the poll on Dotty’s Kinsey score until it settles. Or plateaus. Or explodes.
Panel 3 Joyce: SO close to realization.
Panel 4 Joyce: Aaand the the realization is dead-on-arrival. (DOA, you might say)
…I just had a horrible vision.
Dorothy reaches a breaking point, and confesses…
but she lies and says she’s in love with Joe.
Okay, I don’t really see that happening, but what I’ll imagine for fun is that Dorothy starts to confess to someone (not Joyce) saying, “I’m in love with Joyce,” only she gets so overwhelmed that her voice cuts off as she starts to say “Joyce”– “I’m in love with Jo—” “Joe?! You’re in love with Joe?!”
“You’re in love with Jocelyne?!” I could see it that-away-ing, too.
Shout-out to all the bra-wearing peeps saying “Sadly there are no pretty bras in my size,” you are being LIED TO and FAILED by Victoria’s Secret.
It’s not as convenient as being able to buy bras in-store and it’s often more expensive, but there ARE options online.
Bratabase — a site where you can track bras you have that fit you, and use that info to find your size in other brands! Also good for determining your shape, which is important to know and helps with finding bras that actually fit.
Bra size conversion chart — an explainer for the broad differences between US, UK, EU, etc sizing. It still helps to know which brands tend to have “firm” bands and deep cups, or stretchy bands and shallow cups! FWIW, US bras have always been stretchy-band and wide-and-shallow. This gives them the biggest range you can get without actually needing to carry bigger band or cup sizes, and it’s great for some people… but definitely not everyone.
A lot of UK brands also lean wide-and-shallow while having a bigger selection of sizes, so if that’s you, Brastop has a lot of cute brands you should check out.
If on the other hand you’re more in need of narrow-and-deep, I personally swear by Polish bra-makers, like Ewa Michalak.
I’m admittedly in the small-band-big-cup arena (way above a D), so I know both of these sites have good selections there; EM also has some larger band sizes, and the biggest cup options I’ve seen, period.
For plus-size bands, Bratabase does have reviews from folks who know better than me, but a quick google search gave me Woman Within, which has some very cute bigger-band options that are also on sale right now
TL;DR: no matter what your size, you are not actually consigned to beige and black forever. I promise. It just might take some looking. 🥲 And being willing to spend more, orz, which isn’t fair, but… the options do exist. And so do sales!
i get using “hanky panky aura” instead of “sexual aura” but i kinda wish it’d been “hankual pankual”. just for funsies.
Since the topic of clothing is in the strip (Hey, there’s a picture up there! With words and everything!), I’m curious about something. It’s related to the sweater vest, too. Regarding tops, between these two specific items:
1) Thick sweater, unaccompanied
2) Thinner turtleneck, with a vest and necklace
Which is more Gender?
depends on too many factors to be universal tbh
if we’re talking about a joyce-shaped person I think thick sweater, unaccompanied is pretty up there
I agree about the Joyce shape. Someone like The Casey is more of a thin w/vest shape, I think.
And for extra clarity, if I’m asking a fun, opinion-based question like this, universality is never on the menu.
Touch question.
Thick sweater unaccompanied is close to dysphoria hoodie, which is quintessential anti-Gender clothing.
Turtleneck is officewear, which is *also* very anti-Gender. Worse, it’s a rare form of officewear that is relatively gender neutral, and while gender neutral clothes can be very Gender, in a business casual context it kinda weakens that argument.
Pro-Sweater argument is that because Big Hoodie is *so* anti-Gender, it kind of becomes Precursor-Gender. It can be a signal that some day this person will be Gender, and that gives it some Gender experience. And Thick Sweater Unaccompanied gets a bit of that.
Thinner Turtleneck + Vest + Necklace, from a transfemme perspective, does get points for often being tight (shows off chest) & also hiding the adam’s apple (choker vibes). And obviously Necklace is gender-y, and my lesbian brain cannot argue against Woman In Vest.
I think I’ll go with Thinner Turtleneck, With Vest And Necklace, based on my own early-transition experiences, but both are enough anti-Gender that I think one can do better.
Now we’re cookin’ with gas. These are all extremely interesting points, and so I’m engaged enough to ask this. If one can do better, what would be a good example from the same neighborhood?
Easy answer feels like Confy Sundress And Jacket (With Pockets). Like, it’s simple and obvious, but it’s got the comfy vibes of Thick Sweater and the casual-formal vibes of Turtleneck & Vest, but with much more gender to it.
If I’m allowed to go more formal & a full outfit, then Suit every day of the week. Nothing more Gender than a well-worn suit, on anyone. It’s diverse enough to give you a broad range of expression & the ability to highlight what you want, you can use it to do both gender nonconformance & gender highlighting. And controversial opinion maybe, but I find suits very comfy – I spent nearly every weekend in high school in a suit at a speech tournament, and I loved it, only bit of masculine expression I ever miss (and don’t even get me started on women in suits we’ll be here all day).
I love these suggestions. So, with that sundress, what are your thoughts on a denim jacket in particular? Sometimes I feel it skews into a country/grunge vibe, depending on accessories.
Girl I’m literally in a sundress/denim jacket combo right now
I think the thing I like about sundress/jacket combo is how flexible it is for different expressions. Like, even just personally, I’ve got a denim jacket (for country vibes), a hooded skater jacket (for cool girl vibes), and a blouse-y cardigan (for office lady vibes) which all style the same dress differently.
Like, lolita fashion, or hip-hop fashion, or the like blue-hair-and-pronouns thing are all extremely expressive of who you are, because they’re communicating things like your interests, or your lifestyle, or your relationship with race or gender roles, right? And if you take the view that Gender is a socially convenient subset of Personality, then an outfit being Gender means that it’s got a strong, specific aesthetic that it’s communicating, especially if the things it’s communicating are strongly gendered by the surrounding society.
One of the reason “sundress & jacket” feels so Gender is that it lets you customize it to give specific expressions, while still sitting squarely in a box that western society genders very highly. The fact that, with the right jacket, it can feel grunge, or it can feel country, or it can feel corporate, or…, and yet it still remains quintessentially Girl, is why it feels so Gender to me.
Excellent responses with a lot of information. You win the comments today.
Option 2 definitely feels more Gender to me. Maybe because it’s more effort put into the outfit, but you can fit so much gender expression into those three lil bits.
I can see the customizability there, for sure. Between colors, patterns, and materials, it’s functionally infinite combos right out the gate.
extremely glad they clarified that one
also like. I feel like at some point dorothy’s gonna have to clarify that joe was almost certainly someone else’s first time more than once and (I’m assuming) didn’t treat them badly in the act (that she’s aware of).
That’s the comment section‘s assumption about Joe, and I think it’s valid enough, but it’s explicitly not what Dorothy’s experience of Joe has been in the years they’ve known each other. They met at fifteen, and Joe was a jerk to her, and a jerk about women, for years.
While Dorothy’s desire to prevent Joe and Joyce from becoming an item was also almost certainly motivated by jealous feelings she didn’t understand, she was also genuinely afraid that her naive friend was going to get ground up and spit out by Joe’s misogynistic “break her in” and “upgrade her to a ten” attitude.
Like. Yes, I agree with you, Joe’s going to be gentle and take this slow. He’s especially likely to be gun-shy after a couple of recent events.
But Dorothy is unlikely to be able to say “Joe’s gonna take perfectly good care of you so get all your advice from him and follow his lead” convincingly, because she probably still has trouble fully believing it, even though intellectually she does know he’s been a good boyfriend so far.
I know Joyce is an innocent, but she REALLY can’t know she’s freaking Dorothy out, can she? I mean, there’s autistic and then there’s Not In This World.
This is very average autism actually.
Dorothy’s being kinda quiet and Joyce is focused on gussying herself up for Joe. I don’t think the autism can be scapegoated this time.
This is a normal reaction to teasing, according to all the times she’s teased Becky.
poor dotty
I doubt many will ever see this considering it’s from a wee while ago, but {bzztt!}] wrong – generally if you like fucking women you like fucking them in the full flower of their stink-glory; just sayin’