Oh my gosh! What a milestone! Been wanting this for a decade! Dumbing of Age had been part of my childhood and good portion of my life. I thank Willis for making a fun comic. I went thru heart break, car crash, comma, travelled out of state, made the best friends I ever had, panick attacks, my true coming of Age. What an honor to get a first in a sweet page too.
Getting effed well on the regular can be quite an efficient treatment for the hateful mental condition, though
I mean – how many haters do you personally know who you feel are driven by being frustrated and unloved?
they really do complete each other in a beautiful way, with how their respective strengths make up for what the other is sometimes lacking in… and yet they’re still both colossal idiots lmao
Not sold on it being a healthy couple, but I’ll admit that this is the first comic since the kiss where I can actually enjoy the affection.
Still bothered by the way Walky and Joe were treated, but I can appreciate a simple little bit of affection without Joyce going whole hog “Tear my clothing off”.
Well, it’s too early to say if they’re a healthy couple or not. They’re healthier than most of the other relationships we’ve seen so far – but given the toxicity of many of the relationships, that’s not exactly saying much.
It’s that several times, she’s been unable to stay on-task for things that she, herself, regards as important, because she’s been too interested in diving further in.
One could argue that they might be doing better at things like covering for Jocelyn and communicating with the boys if they just ducked into a broom closet for 20 minutes, honestly.
None of that’s what I’m talking about! This cute, non-sexual moment is just as “distracting” as any sexual moment would be! I’m asking what the difference is that makes this okay and something else not okay
Also, even if what you were saying was what I asked, they were trying to cover for Jocelyne in the *previous strip to this one* and they communicated with the men three weeks ago. What are you talking about?
*Im* not sold on it being an interesting couple but I’m also not a killjoy so I’ll keep the essay on why in my notes app (hint it’s like mostly my personal feels around dotty. Or lack thereof)
I don’t know. I reread the whole comic in the past few days, and not only has this been teased since forever, but the last few arcs very obviously built up to the kiss, and Joe’s reaction to it. In hindsight, there are several Joe moments that are obviously pointing to a poly angle.
Personally, I found the big protest scene absolutely beautiful. There’s so many callbacks to things these two have said to each other, and the kiss is great, and the whole situation is dramatic as fuck. It’s really good romance. I’m looking forward to Joyce and Dorothy being cute and gay together as usual.
I do agree that Walky’s reaction is undersold, but Joyce swooping in and laughing was hilarious; plus I think we’re going to see how this affects him more as we go along.
Overall I think the people who are focusing on the cheating are kinda looking for things to hate honestly. It’s grasping at straws. So I think that if it wasn’t that, it’d be something else.
There’s a huge difference between “upset at cheating” and “focusing on the cheating”. Some folks have had a reasonable (imo) reaction where they just don’t like that the girls didn’t go talk to their respective boyfriends as soon as they got back to the dorm (well, Joyce tried to, but she got sidetracked by penis). Others are acting as if Joyce and Dorothy have been carrying on in secret for decades, betraying the men they took some sacred oath to. Speaking as someone who’s been on the receiving end of both, there’s a big gap between “girlfriend cheating” and “wife cheating”, and some folks just don’t seem to get that.
I’m sure some folks feel that way, but a lot of us would be satisfied by some reaction to the cheating. Yeah, there’s a difference when it’s not a marriage or a long relationship, but there’s usually something. This is minimal reaction by even college girlfriend standards.
As I said in another thread, this is partially down to the strip’s glacial pace. What works for high-antics comedy and action-drama–both of which have a lot of internal momentum to carry from one strip to the next–is a less suitable fit for low-key emotional drama. I’m not surprised it works better on an archive trawl, actually–that brings the pacing back up a bit. (Hell, with a site redesign that put the archives into a week-a-page format, something that used to be quite common in webcomics, the pushback would probably be vastly reduced.)
Walky’s reacting the same way Walky reacts to everything: Concealing his emotional vulnerability behind dumb jokes and eating his angst. Joe, again, has been completely clear that he is not only okay with this, but was actively working towards this outcome. Both of these reactions are entirely consistent with their characterization and actions throughout this storyline and this comic, and, hell, clear back into the previous universe.
You’re not mad because they’re not reacting to the cheating. You’re mad because they’re not reacting to the cheating the way you want them to.
There’s “being upset at cheating”, and then there’s “continuing to harp on how the girls need to face CoNsEqUeNcEs from Joe long after Joe has said outright that he not only fully supports it, but was actively encouraging it”.
And then there’s refusing to understand that from some people’s point of view, Joe fully supporting it is part of the problem. It feels like things are just being handwaved into place to get the desired ship with anyone being hurt.
This is the sort of situation where people only have ground to stand on from a metatextual perspective. The argument, as I understand it, is that the decision to make Joe supportive is a convenient decision by Willis to avoid having to write a scene that would be more difficult emotionally and from a story perspective, rather than a decision made in the best interest of Joe as a character.
@Jacob: Not even necessarily “in the best interest of Joe as a character” or to avoid a particular scene, but to downplay the significance of the cheating even more that it already was.
@Megan: No. Just no. Whatever it is you’re implying. No. Neither the cheating nor Joe’s reaction have been forshadowed for 15 years. Joyce’s attraction to Dorothy has been, but not how it turned into a relationship
Joe’s affection for Joyce, Joyce’s affection for both Dorothy and Joe being very different from one another, Joe and Dorothy’s rivalrous friendship, several mentions of polyamory, Joe’s entire character arc centering around finding more respect for women and wanting whats best for them instead of just for him, and Joyce’s entire character arc being learning how queer she is and coming to accept gay and poly people so she could become one have all been major story elements for, if not since the start of the comic, then at the very least for a long fucking time.
So yes. Just yes. Whatever it is you’re whining about. Yes.
I’ve seen a lot of pushback about some of the phrasing used in the Patreon posts than any individual component of the comic. That’s a large part of what’s got the reddits all riled up. People are subscribing to Patreon and enjoying the comic less than they used to because of the commentary lmao.
I absolutely think the comic by itself would probably be winning more people over if its defenders didn’t keep… y’know, saying stuff like “fuck the haters”.
We’re anticipating negativity so hard that we’re literally creating more of it.
Wasn’t really meant to be a pot shot at you, sorry that it felt that way. I’ve certainly either said or been very tempted to say similar things myself.
not boring enough for you to leave the rest of us in peace, I guess. engaging enough for you to come back and make everyone’s day worse. hip hip hooray for that.
I have been reading these comics since Willis started making comics, and a couple weeks of meh storytelling has not stopped me from reading to this point.
What I don’t understand is the idea that someone disliking a ship is going to make your day worse in some meaningful way.
going to the website for people who like a thing and like talking about the thing they like and going “Well I think this sucks ass and you’re all lame!” makes you a bit of a little shit, is the idea.
As I said, I mostly keep my “this couple sucks ass” to myself unless I’m specifically responding to “ha ha fuck you for thinking this couple sucks ass”.
And again: I’m talking about a thing I like 99.99%+ of but dislike one specific part of, and saying “this one specific part is bad”. Not whatever it is you are randomly accusing me of.
okay, so “Anyone who likes this should shut up and leave the haters alone” is NOT what you said, thank god. I’m allergic to scrolling up, so I have no choice but to believe you.
why does everyone on this site try to fucking gaslight me so hard when I can read??? your words are right there, I can see them! Yes you did! You said that! hello??? do you think i’m illiterate????????
IF you don’t think there’s a difference between “anyone who likes this” (not what I said) and “all the people gloating” (what I actually said), that would explain a great deal about this conversation to ME, at least.
I mean, you, Megan, are definitely one of the most aggro defenders of the strip. I know some people have been assholes and some of them have been assholes to you specifically but you paint with a really broad brush that just kind of lumps “everyone who has any kind of complaint about this storyline at all” with “the few people making violently queerphobic comments”, and it sucks.
Hey, that’s entirely unfair, I haven’t accused an innocent person of being homophobic in, like, at least a week. Now I’m just aggro at whiny jerks and *actual* homophobes!
I will 100% cop to only posting a hater post because I saw this specific post, but in general the comic’s trajectory would have to change a fair bit to change me from a hater to a non-hater (as opposed to from a vocal hater to a let-it-ride hater).
I also think the discussion would have died down a lot on both sides if we didn’t keep poking each other’s metaphorical bears. Even the milder comments like “these two are so [boring/cute]” are getting made more than they would be if not for both sides knowing that the other one’s gonna say stuff.
Like, there have been strips where I really had nothing to say, but I still felt compelled to say “I really like Joyce and Dorothy as a couple”, because I think the general human impulse is to go to the effort of leaving a comment when you have a complaint, but not when your mood is “totally okay”?
And that gets passive-aggressive…
And then someone’ll post something less passive, more aggressive, and more people will chime in, either directly or in their own top-levels.
SOME of which, I’m sure, Willis is grateful for, because it’s engagement for sure…….
But yeah. I think we’re all sometimes guilty of creating arguments where there could’ve just been quiet, if not peace. 😉
I’ve seriously been consciously trying to avoid “Oh god so boring” posts, and I just won’t do them as a top level anymore with rare exceptions (and I thought my one on this comic was pretty funny and anodyne, honestly).
I don’t think people are looking for something to hate. I think it’s more that some people are so offended at the very concept of cheating that even something that’s basically as benign as it possibly can be while still meeting the definition is so upsetting to them that they expect horrible punishment and karma, which they just aren’t getting.
It’s honestly a really good demonstration of what happens when one’s ethics are based on simplistic rules and draconian punishments rather than a recognition of the full context of an action and its consequences. It’s also a good demonstration of what happens when people view ethics as a way of determining who the bad people are and who the good people are rather than a method for determining what the best action to take is in a given situation.
It’s also interesting to see whether people are judging Dorothy and Joyce entirely by the one mistake or by the actions they take in response to their mistake. Are they heinous, awful cheaters who deserve everything bad coming their way or are they teenagers who fucked up and are admirable for working to rectify the mistake, even if they make some missteps along the way?
All in all, I keep coming back to people complaining that Willis wrote a poor cheating arc because it didn’t go how most expect. I think he wrote a brilliant one because peoples’ reactions are so varied and so much of how the characters are reacting challenges traditional notions of cheating as a singular, unforgivable sin deserving of hate rather than a range of behaviors which warrant different responses based on the context and people involved.
You know, it’s this kind of post that keeps me firmly in the hater camp. It’s such a twisted distortion of what most haters here want. I’m sure there are exceptions, mostly in the deleted comments and on other forums, but almost no one here is calling for draconian or horrible punishments. I’ve got no problem with characters fucking up and working to rectify their mistakes, but so far they haven’t even had to do that.
Neither Joyce nor Dorothy even had to confess. Joe had already seen the news and immediately offered poly. Problem solved. Joyce doesn’t have to do anything accept decide if she wants to keep them both. Dorothy stalled and her attempt got hijacked by Joyce rushing in to laugh at Walky and claim she’d won.
I certainly don’t think they’re forever damned by cheating, but I would have liked to see someone actually care about it. I’d like to see them have to do something to make up for it. No draconian punishments or anything, just something to earn back the trust they should have burned.
But no. I just have bad ethics, based on simplistic rules and draconian punishments, that I just use to identify bad people.
Yeah, I concur that the psychoanalyzing being indulged in has invariably kept me out of the sickos camp–the notion that someone, somewhere, could have a different take on events is so unthinkable to some of them that they must invent entire new psychoses in order to account for that.
Obviously, not all the sickos have taken that approach, but some of the most vocal ones absolutely do.
As I acknowledged below, the hyperbolic language was too much, but how is acknowledging how peoples’ response to this situation might indicate something about their ethical views “inventing entire new psychoses?”
I apologize for the hyperbolic language. I can see how you’d take what I said as a simple accusation of “bad ethics” and understand why that would be upsetting. Even if I disagree with the ethical foundation of the views, that’s too much, and I should be more respectful.
Inflammatory rhetoric I’ve already apologized for aside, is the “They’re just looking for something to hate” comment I was disagreeing really preferable to my response of “No, they likely see morality through a somewhat different lens?”
That’s the part that annoys me — the constant accusations of somehow being morally miswired for not liking one ship and one storyline in a comic whose author I’ve been reading longer than some fans have been alive.
Okay… If you find it boring, then I’m not talking about you. Some people have been very aggressive about how awful the cheating is and have been railing against these two. Those are the people I’m talking about. People calling them the worst lesbians in fiction, wishing mild physical violence on them, and such.
I said “some people” not “everyone who dislikes the ship.”
I’ve always been neutral on the ship itself- there are aspects of it I can vibe with, and aspects I really don’t- but I’d probably have about 75% fewer complaints if Dorothy & Joyce had been single when they smooched.
For real though, Becky taking that devastating of an emotional blow on the chin, and then immediately turning around and covering for them — that’s some incredible friend shit.
I’m pretty sure they need to immediately go find Jocelyne and tell her that her Dad is here and looking for her.
Taking actions that might decrease the chance that he notices their queer relationship for the near future might also be a good idea, but I assume that’s a secondary priority.
Or at least touch base on how she wants Joyce and Dorothy to approach him so they’re not flailing around and accidentally give something away. You know, like Joyce was constantly on the verge of doing by trying to play coy with Hank.
I was certain Joyce wasn’t gonna get there herself unless someone told her, thanks Dotty. Maybe we can get through this one without drama <– aware that this will not happen
I feel like last we heard about Becky’s taste in churches (back when Joyce was trying to seduce Jacob), Becky had said “ehh, I know God loves me, so personally I’ll take the worship band” — implication being that she’d willingly go to a non-progressive church if the music was good, I think…?
I don’t know. It’s not always easy to see through Becky’s facade. She was definitely supporting Joyce’s viewpoint as part of the plot to get Joyce and Jacob together, but it also wouldn’t be surprising if she was having a more muted version of Joyce’s reaction to high church.
…… I know its a joke. But alcohol REALLY doesnt make anything better. Like, ever.
Its a cut-and-dry cellular toxin even in lowest doses, the organic/neurological damage accumulates AND its an impactful psychological depressant
(I had to learn that last one the hard way managing my own depression. Even in the best phases, stable, medicated ect, a single glass of wine could be enough to send me spiraling into the dark for days. Took me years to finally see the temporal co-occurrency for what it was. Direct cause and effect)
It can be – for me, at least, while I won’t necessarily forget the thing that’s not right in front of me, I can get sidetracked and I suck at keeping track of time. (My wife sometimes makes fun of my reliance on timers when cooking, but if I didn’t use them I’d burn dinner at least, and possibly the entire house.)
Food is a nightmare for me because of this lol. If we put everything away into the cabinets, then I won’t remember what we have. (Having small cabinets so everything is spread over 4-5 cabinets with inconsistent patterns doesn’t help). But leaving food out on the counter just leads to clutter. Likewise if the food in the fridge or freezer get pushed too far back in the shelves, I will forget it exists half the time and it will go bad before I get to it. Food waste is a big problem for my exact brand of adhd. Leaving everything out on the counter is just not tenable, even though I often do it for whatever the currently active bag or jar of snack is. If we had a bigger kitchen and could categorize storage locations better, it might work.
The only way storing things works for me is if I have a space that’s exclusively for that one type of item. No other item goes there, and all items of that category go there – ie shelf for PlayStation or Wii games. But because we have like 20 different shelves where books go, I can never remember where any book I want is.
This is why my wife cracks half-jokes that I have problems with object permanence, since I really do suffer a lot of the out of sight out of mind issues.
They should, but I disagree on the second part, I actually enjoy this more with the conflicting emotions.
A love story with zero conflict? That’s what I wish people in real life, but in media, I’ll take the silly drama with a side of vigilante antics please!
Bets? Why should Dorothy be okay with sharing with Joe unless she has the incentive of Walky too? But by the time this is worked out and agreed to, Walky is back with Amber.
I think rebound Walky was pretty clearly a substitute for Joyce, and now that Dorothy has real Joyce, she doesn’t need a sub any more. I expect that the conflict over poly will be Dorothy not wanting to share Joyce now that she’s got her.
also yeah Dorothy is in the right here for doing whatever it takes to not out Jocelyne.
Any notion to the contrary is a result of falling back on long-ingrained, white Christian institution informed moral schemas desiring simple, finite rules such that obeying them down to the letter is morally correct in every context.
Both Dorothy in this particular situation and Mary elsewhere have done what very well counts as misgendering when their actions are taken out of context.
A simple, universally applicable moral rule can condemn either both of them or neither of them, but when justice requires identifying bigoted action, you just can’t do so without taking context into account; the problem we are trying to solve simply does not exist inside a social vacuum.
I think in Joyce’s case it’s probably at least partially autism chafing at having to apply nuance in these kinds of social situations. It’s difficult and stressful to navigate social interactions when the rules change depending on the situation and you don’t really understand the rules that well to begin with. It’s simpler and easier to just be able to call Jocelyne by her name, but there are other factors she has to consider and that’s draining.
I think there probably are moral schemas with finite rules which are complete, but simple they are not. Probably too complicated for a mere human to hold them all in mind at any one time. And so we handle that the same way we handle everything else, with intuition based fallible rules of thumb that are updated based on experience.
The problem with simple and absolute rules is they easily conflict, which means you have to define priorities between the rules, or exceptions to the rules…
Simple rules would be stuff like :
– don’t misgender people
– don’t out closeted people
If you add “don’t lie” from her childhood, that’s two conflicts in this situation with a set of only three rules!
If you don’t add in some priorities and exceptions, there is absolutely no way to apply those rules, which means they cannot stay simple.
Okay this one is cute, I like Joyce feeling feelings and Dorothy being a know-it-all (affectionate). Seeing their personalities interact like this really helps me to buy into their romance.
And at the same time I’m DYING for them to go find Jocelyne, or for Hank to discover about their kiss, or for something to blow up in somebody’s faces — this storyline is a powder keg and it’s stressing me ouuuuuuuuuuutttttttt
Exactly my feelings! So many of their prior romance scenes have been big and dramatic and just felt kinda melodramatic to me. Little interactions like this usually land more for me.
Exactly. I get the need for drama and the cheating arc should play out, but I would have preferred if their quiet moment in bed together, when Joyce basically said she wanted her first time to be with Dorothy, should have been the key moment. I was all in at that point.
Small nitpick: making out is sensual, not inherently romantic. Romantic attraction is about emotional attachments, not particular actions. In the same way sexual intimacy can express romantic affection, platonic affection, or simply be enjoyed for its own sake, sensual acts can mean any of these things, even if they’re even more strongly tied to romance than sex is.
i imagine she’s not in the area anymore, i don’t think she got injured but most likely if she is nearby prolly at a friends place and might not visit campus anymore, depends on where she left her phone too
…on the other hand, Jocelyne is kind of a wish-fulfillment character. I don’t want to see her disempowered (outed, at the mercy of her dad’s stupid first reaction, etc).
Also a bad reaction would make the readers unable to ever forgive Hank, and that’s not great with Carol already being 100% unforgivable. But most of all I really like when Jocelyne is boss and I don’t want the cisgender cast to take that from her.
I’d rather lots of characters are worried about an accidental outing, but then Jocelyne gets to tell her dad, perhaps a little earlier than she’d originally expected, but ultimately, very in charge of her own identity and choices. Yes. New prediction: that.
Becky’s girlfriend led a dad off-campus for her once. Becky is paying it forward to Joyce.
Some day Joyce will need to divert a dad off-campus for someone else.
Good instincts on not wanting to misgender your sister joyce, but yeah they did betray you here.
(I still wonder if she *would* be outing jocelyne though… I can’t help but remember that she texted joyce “I need to tell you something before you here it from dad”. Now that could mean “I’m planning to tell dad soon and I want to tell you first”, but.)
Yeah, your second one is how I read it.
Plus this way we have a Hank who doesn’t know that Jocelyne’s a girl, while walking around the same campus as her, in her dress. Suspense!
Becky kinda the goat huh? Don’t trust not misgendering if it will out someone. Is that the right sentence structure? I think it is. Want to avoid numerous negatives that inverse the intent.
I was discussing with friends but I wanna see people’s opinions.
Most DOA characters don’t really talk about anime but I chalk that up to Willis being from an older generation and not knowing being as familiar with modern anime fandom. So I wanted to say, what, if any Anime/Manga do you think the DOA cast watch/read?
I bet Ethan has definitely been told by multiple people to check out different Mecha anime like Voltron, Gurren Lagann, Evangelion, Big O and the like and while he appreciates it, none of it appeals to him the way Transformers does. And he’s getting a bit sick of all the constant “Ok but THIS one will hook you”
Ichi the Witch is kinda the new hotness right now. It’s a shounen battle about a boy who earns the ability to use magic in a world where typically only women can. I’m not sure who would vibe with Ichi in the cast though. Maybe Malaya?
Jennifer gives me big One Piece lifer vibes because of her commitment to knowing obscure Star Wars character Kit Fisto. Like she def knows the lore, watches Grandline Review videos and is disappointed Kaido got low diffed by a big gear 5 punch.
Kinda hard to figure out who would be into what beyond Carla very likely being super into Witch from Mercury. It’s cute gay girls in space piloting big robots.
Ethan definitely checked out a Brave series or two after hearing how the anime franchise spun out of Transformers, but it probably never clicked for him.
I picture Ethan bouncing off of Evangelion (‘wait, they’re not even robots, they’re organic beings with the souls of their main characters mothers in them? Pass, have you met my mom?’), but could see him revisiting it post-Mike, maybe watching End Of Evangelion a few too many times.
Walky watches Basic entry level shonen like My hero, Demon Slayer, Dragonball Super (He’s only watched Super). He does not have the attention span to get into One Piece.
(Hot take. Billie DID read One Piece cuz Walky brought it up, but she quickly realized it was nerd shit and doesn’t talk about it but she’s caught up and really wants someone to discuss lore with her but also doesn’t wanna out herself. She got really frustrated when One Piece got super popular a few years ago cuz she was like “WHERE WERE YOU FANS WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL?”)
Jen’s a real One Piece fan, Walky’s a fake One Piece fan who dropped it before reverse mountain and only got back into it because of the live action. (All fans are valid. I’m only pretending to gatekeep for comedic effect.)
I’d just assume Walky watched Toonami. And for any episodes that were already like 100+ episodes in by the time he started watching, never bothered to look into the older episodes of those series
walky is 100% one of those annoying guys who watches exclusively battle shonen and ignores any and all storytelling nuance in favor of hype moments and aura. he’s kinda guy who watches Beyblade X and absorbs zero of the core themes and is just like “damn they never let bird win battles, this shit is so ass”
other than that, amber’s all over anything with yaoibait in it
Mary would gorge on the Shin Chan dub on account of Georgie and his sister being a never-ending cascade of right-wing talking points
Jennifer would love Dandadan for the high school drama and aliens to geek out over XD
Joe and Joyce would watch JoJo’s bizzare adventure just because. like come on. it’s perfect. XD
Becky and Dina would love watching Dr Stone, the main character is a genius who has to revive human civilization in a post-appocalyptic future with the Power of Science B)
I forgot Mary is canonically a weeb. Her art style it completely based in copying anime and manga! It’s even weirder how conservative she is now that I realize she’s probably watched more anime than anyone in the cast.
I’m aware but that doesn’t make it any less strange to me. Even some of the most widespread and accessible anime repeat themes and depict subjects far outside what would be approved by traditional, western, conservative values. Classics like DBZ, Naruto or relatively new big hits like My Hero or Demon Slayer, perhaps it’s easy to dismiss as entertainment that doesn’t mean anything.
yeah like the same thing happens in regard to US superhero comics where fans dismiss any notion of social commentary, even for series like X-men where commentary on the Civil Rights movement were baked into it from the get-go
it’s less to do with the works themselves and more fandom circles in the United States being comprised mostly of politically illiterate white dudes who aren’t used to progressive takes on their niche interests and don’t want “political agendas” to “spoil” their enjoyment of their favorite works
these communities are built with good intentions as spaces where nerds and weebs are able to safely geek out without ridicule, and they are often unfortunately mislead by ardent reactionaries among them into fearing and painting over progressive ideas are a threat to their safety
Gunsmith Cats, Bubblegum Crisis, Ghost in the Shell–all are about gun-loving women who fight crime. GitS and BC, in particular, are very much fantasies about how awesome law enforcement is, while GC has lots of messaging the NRA would love.
There are also a ton of hyper conservative Star Trek fans.
Like, there’s conservative anime, though I don’t think there’s much at all that’s specifically conservative in a Christian way — but conservatives are adept at ignoring the messaging of media.
“Since when is Superman an immigrant” since literally forever that is foundational to his story you just can’t read for themes because you think literary criticism is stupid and worthless, so characters need to spell out that they’re anti-racist before you actually get it.
And both Star Trek (“Let That Be Your Last Battlefield”) and Superman literally did exactly that. Hell, there was a poster back in the ’50s with Superman telling a group of kids that being racist was anti-American. But somehow, these people just close their eyes and blunder on, and then when they’re forced to see it later they try to claim the “wokeness” is something that was forced into the narrative by “modern liberals”.
SteveShives did a good video on conservative Trek fans, diving into what kinds of things in it DO appeal to these people, but they do literally have to be ignoring very loud messaging in order to get to those parts.
I’m sure it’s the same thing with Superman. Conservatives like that he’s a super strong guy who punches the baddies. They were also big fans of Snyder’s put-upon, “misunderstood” Superman, probably because that’s how they see themselves when they lose all their friends for being shitty people. “They aren’t giving me a chance, they don’t understand that I just want what’s best for this country citation needed!” sort of an attitude.
(Shoved definitely also made this point about Superman but he’s done a lot of Superman videos and I couldn’t immediately discern from their titles which was the one that talked about Snyder!Superman’s specific appeal.)
In “Balance of Terror”. Lt. Stiles (whose family had lost several members in the Earth-Romulus War a century earlier) finally got to see what a Romulan looked like (they’d used nuclear scuttle charges during the war, and negotiated the treaty over subspace radio with no images). He made a snarky remark about Spock. Kirk told him, “Leave your bigotry in your quarters. There’s no room for it on my bridge.”
oh! Walky would like One Punch Man cuz lets face it, the over-the-top satirical superhero comedy is well enjoyed alongside that of Dexter and Monkey Master
It’s too old for me to actually expect it to have happened, but now that I’m considering it I would still like to picture newly atheist Joyce seeking out things that would show how very much she’s not buying into the brainwashing anymore and landing on Angel Sanctuary. Maybe tossed at her by Amber.
Angel sanctuary was the GOAT and it’s awesome to see it mentioned here of all places. What a hot mess of a manga and yet so pretty, so moving, so interesting.
I’m gonna say that there was one girl at boarding school with a crunchyroll subscription and a particular genre interest, and so Sal has an encyclopedic knowledge of every otome game isekai anime that has ever been (and a load of manga that don’t have anime adaptations).
I really wanna say Ethan got into Brave Bang Bravern but it kinda hard clashes with his early characterization and arc and doesn’t really fit his current emo arc either so imma just pencil it in for his later watch list when he’s in a mentally healthier place
(for anyone unfamiliar with the series, its an explicitly homosexual love triangle but one of the characters in said triangle is a giant mech who reeeeally likes his pilot)
I can see Walky and Dorothy both watching “My Hero Academia”, and enjoying it for different reasons — Dorothy gets into the deeper themes of human nature, betrayal and loss, the hero’s journey, and redemption, while Walky likes the superhero action, and identifies with Deku’s never-say-die attitude.
Joyce recently discovered “That Time I Was Reincarnated as a Slime” and loves it because of its positive attitudes, and because the goblins are adorable.
Joe would never admit it, but he occasionally watches magical girl anime, though not as much as he used to because he was traumatized in his early teens by watching “Puella Magi Madoka Magica”.
Sal will watch anything that has motorcycles or giant mechs fighting each other.
Re the alt text: gosh, someone actually remembers that “Awesome God” has verses. I thought people only ever sang the chorus 😛
I’m less fond of that song than I used to be since my theology changed, but whatever else negative can be said of it, at least it isn’t *fatuous*. Singing only the chorus makes people think of the wrong meaning of “awesome”.
It is one that still gets stuck in my head rolling around. Our teen Mass had a “rock band” for the choir and despite 0 singing ability I was in the choir.
It kinda bothers me that Joyce actually needed Dorothy to remind her that things going on around her are not all about how she feels and what she wants. Obviously Jocelyne’s safety is more important than how Joyce feels about misgendering her to protect her. Though I think it would be interesting if it turns out that Hank isn’t nearly as bothered by Jocelyne being trans as they expect.
Joyce has been established as a very emotional person and very black and white thinking, it will take time for her to adapt to that. Remember, it’s been less than a year in universe since just thinking “impure thoughts” would freak her out
Yep, also, her dad showing up was a complete surprise and she hadn’t exactly had time to work through the morality of “it’s okay to misgender someone for their safety”.
Plus she’s from a religion where she was told that God keeps tabs on literally all of her negative behaviors and sins and will judge her on them, so yeah.
tbf she didn’t even know carla was trans until mary ‘outed’ her , so she prolly isn’t familiar with the whole “don’t out lgbt ppl in front of parents” and such
As well as when her mom first met sarah like “Wow a black roommate, i’ll have to brag to the other church goers that you’re not racist”
Also, like. It still feels shitty. It feels shitty to misgender someone you care about even when you know it’s what they’re want. It is in fact okay that Joyce took a few seconds to sit with that feeling and had to have it pointed out that her feelings aren’t the thing to focus on right now?
Not to mention that she doesn’t, actually, know for sure that this is what Jocelyne would want from her: they haven’t talked about it yet. Joyce and Dorothy are making the best, safest guess they can, but it IS a guess, and that’s gonna add to the feeling-shitty.
Plus, you know, all of this is happening while Joyce is also newly aware she’s bi and even though the focus is currently on protecting her sister, there’s also gotta be some anxiety over how her dad will take that news.
So. idk, I don’t think this is something to be disappointed in her over.
Plenty of other reasons over the last couple of months!
This. She’s only been very recently exposed to trans people, and it’s very, very common for people who are new to gender etiquette to need some advice about situations that are more complex than “gender people correctly.”
I mean, depends on if you’re watching original DB or DBZ. In DB? Absolutely, he’s being focused for most of it.
DBZ? He’s out of order for a huge chunk of all the sagas and only really comes out to play for real during the final battles.
That’s true, or at least Joyce is, but we often get them interspersed with arcs about other characters and since at least the protest that hasn’t really happened. The only times we’ve shifted away from these two directly has been to others finding out or dealing with the fallout from the protest.
ngl i thought you meant “fallout from the protest” as just the joyrothy stuff. do you not want… anyone to have any unrelated thoughts about the very important moment in national history??? you want to move on completely???
I’m not sure how to read that, but the point was that in most past storylines we’d have essentially B plots basically unrelated to the main plot. (Or it would be even more divided with no clear main plot for a particular day.) We could look in on Sal and Danny or on Billie and Alice and it wouldn’t just be to interact with the main focus characters or like Sal/AG or the bit with Asma/Raidah/Alice here still deal with a linked issue.
That way readers who aren’t into one particular plot can have a breather and something to enjoy.
I suspect, like in a few other arcs, there’s just too much to get through in here so there’s no time to shift focus.
heh, now I get to feel all smug because my comment on the 17th is what Dorothy is saying in the third panel. Sometimes misgendering a trans person is actually keeping them safe, this is something very very important allies need to understand
“I’m… between churches at the moment” euphemistically suggests he’s not going to church currently and may not be going back – at minimum, that he’s left the ToeDad-supporting church the family used to go to and hasn’t found a new one yet.
I’m pretty sure “between churches” is Hank’s euphemistic way of saying that he is not currently associating himself with a congregation, much like how an unemployed person would say they are “between jobs.”
I got this doubt about “between churches” because baptist christians used to go church twice in every Sunday…
Bit it makes sense, after reading what Becky suggested.
I think “between churches” means 0 services, because he hasn’t found another one yet after leaving the old one. Same way people will say they’re “between jobs” if they’re unemployed or “between girl/boyfriends” if they’re single.
The fact that he’s taking some time away from the churches to actually think before committing to another one means he is actually thinking critically now about exactly what kind of group he’s willing to stand with and what he stands for, so I think there’s hope. Becky’s a die-hard Christian too, but she’s a very different flavor of it than Carol, particularly in that her new church is way more accepting of queer people. Going with Becky and maybe checking out her church might be a good call for him, especially right now. Being a fundie isn’t the only Christian option he has, and it sounds like he’s actively looking for the other options now.
When you’re told your entire life that life is as simple as X and Y, anyone doing Y must be Pure Evil. Hank is not having a good time right now, and seems to have doubled down on prejudice in order to cope.
It’s sweet, sure… But it’s also potentially dangerous for Jocelyne. We don’t yet know how Hank feels about transgender people, and we don’t know if Jocelyne would feel comfortable with being outed to him, so refusing to misgender her could very well not be acting in her best interests.
As someone who is transgender myself, and who was outed to part of my family without my consent, I can honestly say that while I wish we lived in a society where that wasn’t an issue and we could just tell everyone that we’re transgender without fear of reprisal, that’s not the world we live in, and you DO NOT out someone without their explicit permission. If I was afraid of a violent reaction from someone finding out I’m transgender, I’d much rather be deadnamed and misgendered than outed to them, even accidentally.
If only they had some way of contacting. Like a phone, but mobile, that they were shown reading a message from Jocelyne a few strips ago, then they could use this device to contact her instantaneously.
You’d think that would be urgent with how the threat of her outing was previously serious enough to send them into a dangerous protest situation.
But we gotta talk about how it makes the cis people feel first
I’d need to double check things and it’s possible that I’m wrong on the order of events, but if I remember the timeline correctly, Joyce wasn’t aware that Hank was coming until he literally showed up knocking at her door, and the two of them have been talking for the few minutes that he’s been there, so Joyce hasn’t had a chance to message Jocelyne about Hank being there yet.
Of course, even if she WAS aware that Hank was on his way, she’s been in panic mode all morning, and as we’ve already seen with the shenanigans that she’s been getting up to, that doesn’t exactly lead to the most intelligent of decision making.
So, it’s not like it’s all that unrealistic that Joyce wouldn’t think to message Jocelyne to warn her that Hank was there. Either she hasn’t had a chance, or she’s been so panicked that she didn’t think about that simple and obvious solution.
My snark is more that warning her about Hank was, like 24 hours ago, so important that they broke through a police cordon.
Now he’s actually here they’re standing in a hallway telling each other how great they are rather than being “oh shit I’ve gotta text Jocelyn that dad’s on campus with the express purpose of finding her.”
I think Joyce texted Jocelyne already. She stayed behind for a moment when Dorothy and Hank left and was doing something with her phone in the first panel of yesterday’s strip.
Also if Jocelyn *was* sent a message, then what was the narrative point of Becky diverting Hank?
I presumed it was to give them time to get a warning to Jocelyn while she distracted him. Which makes no sense if Joyce had sent a message, because now it’s just to give Joyce a moment to be all golly gee trans people sure do make things difficult
I don’t know, but it has to mean something. Joyce said on the page before “You two go on ahead. I’ll be .. right after” and then she catches up and there’s the phone with little motion lines.
It’s subtle, but Willis has done things like that before. Maybe it wasn’t texting Jocelyne, but it was something.
Becky doesn’t know that Hank is here for Jocelyne. She may not even know that Jocelyne is still in town. She’s was getting Hank away from Joyce & Dorothy before they outed themselves.
If that’s the case I have even more questions from a narrative perspective like why should I think Hank will just forget about his daughter three feet away long enough for her to… escape? Like Becky said ‘go’ to them – but go where and to what end? And, if she doesn’t know about Jocelyn, go why?
If Hank’s there in the dorms he’s obviously not just going to forget about it if Joyce runs off, he’s going to become more suspicious and follow them. Or just wait for Joyce to come back to her dorm. It makes no damn sense for Becky to tell them to go if she was just wanting to change the subject.
This whole arc has just felt that the people who aren’t Joyce or Dorothy are there to have a strip or two of dialogue with no resolution (but teasing at some possible future thing that might happen) before leaving or getting interrupted.
It’s just endless walking and going places with apparent urgency that ends up not being urgent and digressions and bathos and important plot points that may or may not have happened off screen and…
I’m just frustrated because things like this happen and I was thinking oh cool Hank’s here we’re getting to the nitty gritty of this all and then it’s talk about around birth control for some reason then Becky whisks him away and well I guess that’s over now.
A lot is happening, but nothing’s happened.
whenarewegettingtothefireworksfactory dot gif goes here
(this rant isn’t at you, I’m just frustrated because I want to enjoy this! But the plotting and pacing are not good at all imo)
“I’m glad Joyce has made such a good friend in college,” he thinks. “Maybe next year they could be roommates; imagine how much money they’d save on housing”
They’re gonna need the extra money, since Carol sold the house and now Hank lives in I guess a windowless garage outside Burbank or someshit, so I’m not sure there’s gonna be any substantial inheritance for Joyce, once the parents inevitably croak before she graduates.
Hank’s between churches? This would be a hell of a time for Hank to reveal to Joyce that he’s an atheist too. Given everything that happened with Toedad and Carol, I wouldn’t blame him, tbh.
I think it’s going to take a lot more for him to jump from “OK, I’ve just found out that the church my kids grew up in was pretty terrible actually,” and, “Hey, maybe the thing that all these churches had in common was their worship of God.”
Of course, finding out that “Joshua” is actually Jocelyne and that Joyce is actually in a gay relationship that not only she but also Becky were afraid of him finding out about because of his religious beliefs as well as being confronted by the facts of what those at the protest were protesting compared to what he was told the protest was about would be pretty major blows to his beliefs. I doubt it will be enough for him to become an Atheist – remember, it took a LOT for Joyce to become an atheist, and Becky kept her faith despite going through only slightly less than Joyce did – but it might shock him out of a lot of the Conservative ideology that he’s fallen prey to.
I don’t even necessarily think they are. I think it’s just the only churches on television and in the media are the Right Wing ones descended from segregationist ones and the televangelist corporations (which are both the same).
Based on the latest survey results about how USians experience religion in general, I think it’s honestly more likely he’d fall into “believer, but avoiding the idiocy of modern organized religion”.
He’s had a long-term habit of “hopping between churches trying to find one that was completely aligned with his conscience”, based on older strips, and a lot of folks who want to be more liberal than the evangelicals will allow but also want to be less rigidly defined than the high churches will allow end up in that weird limbo.
Until they find the Quakers or Unitarians, anyway.
Joyce at least knows those exist, vaguely! She callled them “hippie” churches with the mild disparagement of an older conservative, and then immediately realized that was the type of church she belonged at.
I hope if Hank stays religious and still wants to attend church, he decides that’s where he belongs, too.
Speaking as an ex-Catholic who floats between Quaker, Unitarian, and Reconstructionist Judaism (all three of which scratch my particular agnostic itch), there’s usually plenty of room here. (except at High Holidays)
And like, look, I’m agnostic, I’m queer, and ever since I can remember I’ve always found the trappings of Christianity discomfiting.
But for a lot of people, it’s the opposite, and that’s literally fine.
If Hank comes out of this an atheist, that would ALSO be fine, but he doesn’t have to. He can follow Lucy and Becky’s model instead. Both are valid choices??? And I can definitely see it going both ways.
I can see him being just… exhausted from trying to find The Right church, something he seems to have been doing for decades, and giving up. I can especially see what happened with his ex-wife as having dealt a bit of a fatal blow to his faith. I can see that being something he and Joyce bond over and grow closer because of, and maybe he might even get to not only keep Joyce and Jocelyne, but to also reconnect with Jordan.
Or maybe he’ll go to Becky’s church while he’s in town and he’ll discover it’s exactly what he was always looking for, he just didn’t know to try that specific type of church because of the inherited prejudice against “hippie” churches that he probably got from his own parents and passed down to Joyce.
(There is a church position that reading the Bible while LOOKING for it to allow xyz behavior is inherently sinful. Somehow the folks with this viewpoint still tend to treat the King James Bible as sacrosanct, even though it was literally retranslated so James could divorce his wife. Divine right of kings, I guess! Anyway, this group looks down on “hippie” churches. I imagine Joyce’s view on them, and therefore also Hank’s, was probably more “misguided” than “demonic”, but still “bad”.)
…but also, third possibility: I can also see what happened with Carol making all of this (having one bi daughter and one trans daughter) just… a bridge too far? I can see him taking it as a sign that he’s been doing the wrong thing. “I decided to be accepting of Becky even though I wasn’t sure God would be cool with it, and then he took my wife from me. I refused to see that as the message it was, and so God punished me further by making two of my children………”
Well, insert whatever word you want there. It doesn’t even have to be a hateful word: a lot of parents are afraid of having queer kids not because they think it’s evil to be queer but because they know it’s HARD. You never want your kids to suffer, and so often being different means suffering.
I imagine that, at the very least, Hank is wrestling with that sort of possibility. Especially if he knows Jocelyne is trans? And that that’s why he’s “between churches”. He stuck by Joyce before because he felt like God was telling him to listen to her; I imagine he’s currently struggling to decide what God is telling him now, if not also whether that’s anything at all.
Accepting basically all your post as well said, I’m going to add that it’s interesting, I don’t particularly care for the trappings of Christianity, but I LOVE formal and ritual observance of basically anything. THAT’s the “Catholic” programming.
Lowkey one of the best reasons I found for me to be in a “fraternity” rather than a “club” as an atheist/agnostic, for the record. You get a whole bunch of pseudo-Greek/pseudo-Masonic ritual that’s not really analogous to anything in any religion that caused you any damage.
I don’t think it’s at all weird, but that may be because I have a bunch of Jewish mutuals, and one of the threads I’ve seen them dive into is how much humans (generally) like rituals.
If we’re not religious, we tend to find other ways to incorporate ritual into our lives. Tumblr’s full of these — “Wet Beast Wednesday”, as an example that will just sound completely bizarre to anyone not familiar with it. Chain letters and asks are a type of ritual. Having a specific time of day or week set aside to watch a show with a loved one is a type of ritual. Starting the day with a particular stretch routine, bubble baths with specific bath bombs, getting a lotto ticket every Friday…
We like rituals, big and small. 🙂 Just gotta be rituals we associate with good things.
It’s weird, but not too weird I suppose, that a fair portion of mainstream surveys accidentally or purposefully lump that response in with “identifying as Christian by default but not going to church at all”, which I personally think IS substantially different.
I’m just going anecdotally off my dad, who is very devout/ active in faith and wpuld if pressed self-identify as a Baptist, but doesn’t see the ‘point’ in having a preacher or pastor. To him his faith is between him and God.
But he’s weird in a lot of ways. Absolute hodgepodge of fundie and progressive beliefs.
If you anti-ship something, it’s pretty rare for the writing showing you the two characters being cute together to actually make you feel any differently about them. Like, speaking from experience, often times it just feels out of character. “That character would not say that!” isn’t a fun viewing experience to have.
Might also be two bumbling cis girls saying basic obvious stuff about being trans allies? I can see that prompting eye rolls too even though I liked it. But given “haters”, probably the first one.
Hating DoJo as a couple is a perfectly valid form of artistic criticism, especially since they somehow have LESS charisma and charm collectively than they did as individual characters. This pairing is approximately as exciting as bleached flour, especially since Willis has leached all the drama or interest out of it by juxtaposing it against Jocelyne, the protest, and the general lack of anyone calling out their bad behavior except Sarah once for ten seconds.
Ya, pretty much all of this. I don’t think I could have said it more succinctly. I used to enjoy strips with these two in them, but as a couple they are so one-note that it’s becoming grating.
To put on my tinfoil hat and go the absolute most pessimistic route, I could observe that we might be skipping past all the drama and clearing a open path for DoJo with no resistance, because this is the fastest route to collecting on Slipshine and Patreon bucks. I don’t think this is the real reason, but to play my own devil’s advocate I’d argue that the writing has done nothing to demonstrate otherwise.
If he wanted that, he could have simply not had them kiss at the protest or had them tell their boyfriends first or any number of other things that would have had literally zero drama.
We are closer to that than we are to the explosions and destruction people seem to want in response to them cheating, but there isn’t zero drama. I also think it’s important to recognize the build up to their big kiss as part of the story, too. There was a lot of drama and resistance and back and forth there. How many times did Dorothy argue with herself that it was trauma, not love, or that they couldn’t be together for “so many reasons?”
I’m not necessarily saying you have to like it, but claiming that what we’re seeing is the path of least resistance to another Slipshine seems pretty clearly false.
See, yeah, THAT is going too far. Willis can write something that many of us find unsatisfying without having any particular ill motive — and it’s clear, honestly, that most of the audience IS satisfied with it, balance of the polls and/or comments section(s) nonwithstanding.
oh god this is MOOD. also playing the game of “which random stranger can I just talk with about my SISTER without worrying about it getting back to people who know us”
There is a bonus strip where Hank is walking with Jocelyne way back when and he notes that she’s growing out her hair, which makes her nervous.
Then he chuckles and says he did the same thing in college.
There ARE changes but so far they’re nothing she can’t hide with the right coat, as we saw when she was waiting in the lobby for Joyce to come down and was soothing herself that she could always keep her coat on if she decided not to come out to Joyce.
Hair length doesn’t necessarily have to indicate gender. Men can have long hair and short hair, same for women, and all flavors of gender. My dad had hair long enough to pull it back into a bun for a time post-Covid.
This sort of strip, Dorothy & Joyce being a couple and doing couple things, makes me feel nothing. It exists, they’re cute, sure, whatever, what’s for lunch?
And since I feel that way, this arc is so goddamn unsatisfying.
Because it’s obvious that DoJo being affectionate with each other is supposed to be an emotional payoff for…*gestures broadly at state of comic*. It’s supposed to be the narrative taking a brief pause to breathe and give the reader some good feels before it dives back into whatever Charlie Foxtrot is upcoming.
One of the reasons Becky diving on a Hank-shaped grenade moments after having her heart ripped out is supposed to be validated is because it distracted Hank long enough for today’s strip to occur. And if you don’t accept that as a valid reason, well, it looks like Becky did this just so these two could continue to stamp on her heart.
Additonally, I find the recent string of encounters that DoJo have had to be *really* unsatisfying. Sarah calls them to task? Over in 2 strips and seems to have gone in one ear and out the other. Joyce tries to come clean to Joe- 4 strips and then she runs off. Joyce and Dorothy confront Daisy? 2 strips mostly about Joyce’s comic. Jennifer shows up? 2 strips worth of commentary and inexplicable rizzing of Dorothy. Becky gets her heart ripped out? Like 5 strips and then she runs off. Hank shows up? Less than a week later and he’s already off-panel for now.
Individually, I don’t have a problem with any one of those encounters being pretty darn short. But taken in aggregate and it’s really weird to read. It’s like the narrative is playing Whack-a-Mole when it comes to things that might get in the way of strips like today’s- a problem pops up and it’s knocked back down as quick as possible, and then the next one pops up.
Well, no, that’s the point. Lots of other strips in this arc have made me feel things. Some of those feelings are definitely intended (feeling bad for Becky, for example), and they’re mostly negative. So here’s this strip intending to be a big burst of positivity to lighten the mood.
But it makes me feel nothing so I’m still carrying that negativity from the previous strips.
I read Becky’s intent not as a “Hey, you two lovebirds get out of here and be happy with each other while I distract dear old dad for you,” it was more of a, “Hey, get out of here before you idiots get yourselves and Jocelyne outed and get Joyce pulled out of college!”
It’s still a hell of a thing for her to do since she’s still processing Joyce and Dorothy being a thing (and apparently having feelings for each other for the entire school year) – but it’s definitely not a feel good, “You go, girls!” more of an, “I’m saving you’re stupid butts.”
But running away is a weird approach here. How’s Hank going to react to that? It’s not like he’s just going to shrug and think “Joyce isn’t here anymore. Guess I’ll go home.”
It just makes things worse.
And this is surprising… how, exactly? Becky’s very much an act first, think later sort of gal, and neither Joyce nor Dorothy are exactly good at hiding things from other people. It’s all going to go down sooner or later – which is probably why it’s hard to appreciate this moment of relationship building between Dorothy and Joyce.
Hopefully, they take the chance to catch Jocelyne and get her advice on how to handle this, since she’s the only one in Joyce’s circle who both knows what’s going on (well, most of it – Becky’s reaction would be at least something of a surprise) and has the maturity to actually work things out. I don’t think we’re going to avoid family drama here – but I have a feeling that’s going to be the best way to get through it.
You’re speaking as if everything has been resolved, but of the people you’ve mentioned: Sarah, Joe, Walky, Daisy, Jennifier, Becky, and Hank, I think only one, Daisy, is probably concluded. This is not going to be the last we hear from any of these characters, in part because most are consistently recurring characters. Hell, I’m sure we’re going to be hearing from Raidah, Amazigirl/Amber, Dina, and more.
I don’t really read this as the end of the arc of them getting together. I think it’s better to read this sequence (basically everything after their first kiss) as the beginning of them being together. We’re getting a rapid tour of all the spinning plates they now have, and what comes next will be seeing them trying to manage all of them.
To add to the above, I understand a desire to want each major conflict they’ll need to address to be fully explored and concluded before moving on to the next. In some ways, that would be more satisfying. However, that tends not to be Willis’s style. He tends to jump around a lot, interleaving many different conflicts and characters rather than staying focused on one at a time. That isn’t specific to this arc.
yeah a lot of people seem to think all the things that have happened are resolved because they’re not currently being focused on
however, much like hank asking “is that your brother” via text, the thing that sent joyce and dorothy to the protest, it’ll probably all come back around – like hank showing up at joyce’s door just now.
Yeah, I have a feeling that that’s what’s driving a lot of the dissatisfaction with the current arc. There are a lot more plates spinning around this particular conflict than usual, and it kinda feels like everything’s being sucked into it one way or another. Great if you like the subject of the story – but if you don’t, there’s nowhere to look to in order to try to escape it.
[joking] Cue Danny and Sal renting out a recording room again. [/joking]
Boy im glad I really love the two main characters of this comic. This seems like it'd be miserable if I had mistaken it for a complete ensemble, and also thought for some reason the camera should be yanked off the main characters in the middle of being in love with each other openly for the first day!
It feels a little lazy having Hank be pro genocide. This is the same Hank that realized the sickness in his church when they tried to hand wash away the kidnapping of his daughter by old Toehead. Who divorced his wife because of her zealotry.
It’s also the same Hank who needed them to go that far to realize the sickness in the first place. He hasn’t had his face rubbed in the genocide by anyone he cares about yet.
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Am I first???
Who cares. We got kissing more. That’s what’s important.
And then hank turns around for .5 seconds and saw that
See Doxkid’s comment below. It’s the sixth top-level comment.
Oh my gosh! What a milestone! Been wanting this for a decade! Dumbing of Age had been part of my childhood and good portion of my life. I thank Willis for making a fun comic. I went thru heart break, car crash, comma, travelled out of state, made the best friends I ever had, panick attacks, my true coming of Age. What an honor to get a first in a sweet page too.
That final panel-and-a-half were adorable af. <3
aaaawwweee ^-^
Aw…
This is a good couple, fuck the haters.
I am not volunteering to fuck the haters.
It’s for the people, comrade!
And Science. Don’t forget about Science.
Getting effed well on the regular can be quite an efficient treatment for the hateful mental condition, though
I mean – how many haters do you personally know who you feel are driven by being frustrated and unloved?
Not that I´d be volunteering either, mind.
they really do complete each other in a beautiful way, with how their respective strengths make up for what the other is sometimes lacking in… and yet they’re still both colossal idiots lmao
Colossal Idioting Of Age
They complete each other, and sometimes that means completing each other’s colossal idiocy. Other times it’s cute shit like this.
ooops my mouse slipped and a meme happened XD
Sickos Vs Paladins in a nutshell:
[CW: brief, censored cartoon nudity]
I wish more people ran around with random buckets of porn they found on tables.
I’m a hater who doesn’t fuck, so no thanks
Not sold on it being a healthy couple, but I’ll admit that this is the first comic since the kiss where I can actually enjoy the affection.
Still bothered by the way Walky and Joe were treated, but I can appreciate a simple little bit of affection without Joyce going whole hog “Tear my clothing off”.
They’re a healthy couple, and Joe is still there.
Well, it’s too early to say if they’re a healthy couple or not. They’re healthier than most of the other relationships we’ve seen so far – but given the toxicity of many of the relationships, that’s not exactly saying much.
Oh PLEASE elaborate on why “tear my vlothes off” is a bad thing, I’m dying to hear that line of thinking
It’s that several times, she’s been unable to stay on-task for things that she, herself, regards as important, because she’s been too interested in diving further in.
One could argue that they might be doing better at things like covering for Jocelyn and communicating with the boys if they just ducked into a broom closet for 20 minutes, honestly.
None of that’s what I’m talking about! This cute, non-sexual moment is just as “distracting” as any sexual moment would be! I’m asking what the difference is that makes this okay and something else not okay
Also, even if what you were saying was what I asked, they were trying to cover for Jocelyne in the *previous strip to this one* and they communicated with the men three weeks ago. What are you talking about?
*Im* not sold on it being an interesting couple but I’m also not a killjoy so I’ll keep the essay on why in my notes app (hint it’s like mostly my personal feels around dotty. Or lack thereof)
I’m normally more diplomatic than this, but seeing this comic, I think you sum it up well.
becky drama aside i imagine there’d be ‘less haters’ without the cheating aspect or so
I don’t know. I reread the whole comic in the past few days, and not only has this been teased since forever, but the last few arcs very obviously built up to the kiss, and Joe’s reaction to it. In hindsight, there are several Joe moments that are obviously pointing to a poly angle.
Personally, I found the big protest scene absolutely beautiful. There’s so many callbacks to things these two have said to each other, and the kiss is great, and the whole situation is dramatic as fuck. It’s really good romance. I’m looking forward to Joyce and Dorothy being cute and gay together as usual.
I do agree that Walky’s reaction is undersold, but Joyce swooping in and laughing was hilarious; plus I think we’re going to see how this affects him more as we go along.
Overall I think the people who are focusing on the cheating are kinda looking for things to hate honestly. It’s grasping at straws. So I think that if it wasn’t that, it’d be something else.
Saying “People who are upset at cheating are just looking for a reason to complain” is a pretty bold claim.
There’s a huge difference between “upset at cheating” and “focusing on the cheating”. Some folks have had a reasonable (imo) reaction where they just don’t like that the girls didn’t go talk to their respective boyfriends as soon as they got back to the dorm (well, Joyce tried to, but she got sidetracked by penis). Others are acting as if Joyce and Dorothy have been carrying on in secret for decades, betraying the men they took some sacred oath to. Speaking as someone who’s been on the receiving end of both, there’s a big gap between “girlfriend cheating” and “wife cheating”, and some folks just don’t seem to get that.
I’m sure some folks feel that way, but a lot of us would be satisfied by some reaction to the cheating. Yeah, there’s a difference when it’s not a marriage or a long relationship, but there’s usually something. This is minimal reaction by even college girlfriend standards.
This “cheating” started yesterday afternoon. Joe and Walky learned about it less than an hour ago. Give it a minute.
As I said in another thread, this is partially down to the strip’s glacial pace. What works for high-antics comedy and action-drama–both of which have a lot of internal momentum to carry from one strip to the next–is a less suitable fit for low-key emotional drama. I’m not surprised it works better on an archive trawl, actually–that brings the pacing back up a bit. (Hell, with a site redesign that put the archives into a week-a-page format, something that used to be quite common in webcomics, the pushback would probably be vastly reduced.)
Not relevant. We’ve had Joe’s reaction. We don’t need to wait for it. We know what it is.
Walky’s reacting the same way Walky reacts to everything: Concealing his emotional vulnerability behind dumb jokes and eating his angst. Joe, again, has been completely clear that he is not only okay with this, but was actively working towards this outcome. Both of these reactions are entirely consistent with their characterization and actions throughout this storyline and this comic, and, hell, clear back into the previous universe.
You’re not mad because they’re not reacting to the cheating. You’re mad because they’re not reacting to the cheating the way you want them to.
There’s “being upset at cheating”, and then there’s “continuing to harp on how the girls need to face CoNsEqUeNcEs from Joe long after Joe has said outright that he not only fully supports it, but was actively encouraging it”.
And then there’s refusing to understand that from some people’s point of view, Joe fully supporting it is part of the problem. It feels like things are just being handwaved into place to get the desired ship with anyone being hurt.
why is Joe supporting it a problem
This is the sort of situation where people only have ground to stand on from a metatextual perspective. The argument, as I understand it, is that the decision to make Joe supportive is a convenient decision by Willis to avoid having to write a scene that would be more difficult emotionally and from a story perspective, rather than a decision made in the best interest of Joe as a character.
seems to be a lot complaints about Willis doing something lazily or in bad faith when the things in question have been foreshadowed for 15 years
@Jacob: Not even necessarily “in the best interest of Joe as a character” or to avoid a particular scene, but to downplay the significance of the cheating even more that it already was.
@Megan: No. Just no. Whatever it is you’re implying. No. Neither the cheating nor Joe’s reaction have been forshadowed for 15 years. Joyce’s attraction to Dorothy has been, but not how it turned into a relationship
Joe’s affection for Joyce, Joyce’s affection for both Dorothy and Joe being very different from one another, Joe and Dorothy’s rivalrous friendship, several mentions of polyamory, Joe’s entire character arc centering around finding more respect for women and wanting whats best for them instead of just for him, and Joyce’s entire character arc being learning how queer she is and coming to accept gay and poly people so she could become one have all been major story elements for, if not since the start of the comic, then at the very least for a long fucking time.
So yes. Just yes. Whatever it is you’re whining about. Yes.
I’ve seen a lot of pushback about some of the phrasing used in the Patreon posts than any individual component of the comic. That’s a large part of what’s got the reddits all riled up. People are subscribing to Patreon and enjoying the comic less than they used to because of the commentary lmao.
I absolutely think the comic by itself would probably be winning more people over if its defenders didn’t keep… y’know, saying stuff like “fuck the haters”.
We’re anticipating negativity so hard that we’re literally creating more of it.
I fully stand by what I said.
Wasn’t really meant to be a pot shot at you, sorry that it felt that way. I’ve certainly either said or been very tempted to say similar things myself.
people who are bad and annoying and those who say “dont be bad and annoying” are actually the same. there’s no difference. we’re all geniuses.
You are correct, all the people gloating about this milquetoast and boring relationship SHOULD stop and leave the haters in peace.
not boring enough for you to leave the rest of us in peace, I guess. engaging enough for you to come back and make everyone’s day worse. hip hip hooray for that.
I have been reading these comics since Willis started making comics, and a couple weeks of meh storytelling has not stopped me from reading to this point.
What I don’t understand is the idea that someone disliking a ship is going to make your day worse in some meaningful way.
going to the website for people who like a thing and like talking about the thing they like and going “Well I think this sucks ass and you’re all lame!” makes you a bit of a little shit, is the idea.
As I said, I mostly keep my “this couple sucks ass” to myself unless I’m specifically responding to “ha ha fuck you for thinking this couple sucks ass”.
And again: I’m talking about a thing I like 99.99%+ of but dislike one specific part of, and saying “this one specific part is bad”. Not whatever it is you are randomly accusing me of.
Great thing he doesn’t say that then
okay, so “Anyone who likes this should shut up and leave the haters alone” is NOT what you said, thank god. I’m allergic to scrolling up, so I have no choice but to believe you.
why does everyone on this site try to fucking gaslight me so hard when I can read??? your words are right there, I can see them! Yes you did! You said that! hello??? do you think i’m illiterate????????
IF you don’t think there’s a difference between “anyone who likes this” (not what I said) and “all the people gloating” (what I actually said), that would explain a great deal about this conversation to ME, at least.
It is, in fact, possible to say “don’t be bad and annoying” in a bad and annoying way.
I mean, you, Megan, are definitely one of the most aggro defenders of the strip. I know some people have been assholes and some of them have been assholes to you specifically but you paint with a really broad brush that just kind of lumps “everyone who has any kind of complaint about this storyline at all” with “the few people making violently queerphobic comments”, and it sucks.
Hey, that’s entirely unfair, I haven’t accused an innocent person of being homophobic in, like, at least a week. Now I’m just aggro at whiny jerks and *actual* homophobes!
I will 100% cop to only posting a hater post because I saw this specific post, but in general the comic’s trajectory would have to change a fair bit to change me from a hater to a non-hater (as opposed to from a vocal hater to a let-it-ride hater).
Hail, comrade
I did say more! Not all. 🙂
I also think the discussion would have died down a lot on both sides if we didn’t keep poking each other’s metaphorical bears. Even the milder comments like “these two are so [boring/cute]” are getting made more than they would be if not for both sides knowing that the other one’s gonna say stuff.
Like, there have been strips where I really had nothing to say, but I still felt compelled to say “I really like Joyce and Dorothy as a couple”, because I think the general human impulse is to go to the effort of leaving a comment when you have a complaint, but not when your mood is “totally okay”?
And that gets passive-aggressive…
And then someone’ll post something less passive, more aggressive, and more people will chime in, either directly or in their own top-levels.
SOME of which, I’m sure, Willis is grateful for, because it’s engagement for sure…….
But yeah. I think we’re all sometimes guilty of creating arguments where there could’ve just been quiet, if not peace. 😉
I’ve seriously been consciously trying to avoid “Oh god so boring” posts, and I just won’t do them as a top level anymore with rare exceptions (and I thought my one on this comic was pretty funny and anodyne, honestly).
I don’t think people are looking for something to hate. I think it’s more that some people are so offended at the very concept of cheating that even something that’s basically as benign as it possibly can be while still meeting the definition is so upsetting to them that they expect horrible punishment and karma, which they just aren’t getting.
It’s honestly a really good demonstration of what happens when one’s ethics are based on simplistic rules and draconian punishments rather than a recognition of the full context of an action and its consequences. It’s also a good demonstration of what happens when people view ethics as a way of determining who the bad people are and who the good people are rather than a method for determining what the best action to take is in a given situation.
It’s also interesting to see whether people are judging Dorothy and Joyce entirely by the one mistake or by the actions they take in response to their mistake. Are they heinous, awful cheaters who deserve everything bad coming their way or are they teenagers who fucked up and are admirable for working to rectify the mistake, even if they make some missteps along the way?
All in all, I keep coming back to people complaining that Willis wrote a poor cheating arc because it didn’t go how most expect. I think he wrote a brilliant one because peoples’ reactions are so varied and so much of how the characters are reacting challenges traditional notions of cheating as a singular, unforgivable sin deserving of hate rather than a range of behaviors which warrant different responses based on the context and people involved.
You know, it’s this kind of post that keeps me firmly in the hater camp. It’s such a twisted distortion of what most haters here want. I’m sure there are exceptions, mostly in the deleted comments and on other forums, but almost no one here is calling for draconian or horrible punishments. I’ve got no problem with characters fucking up and working to rectify their mistakes, but so far they haven’t even had to do that.
Neither Joyce nor Dorothy even had to confess. Joe had already seen the news and immediately offered poly. Problem solved. Joyce doesn’t have to do anything accept decide if she wants to keep them both. Dorothy stalled and her attempt got hijacked by Joyce rushing in to laugh at Walky and claim she’d won.
I certainly don’t think they’re forever damned by cheating, but I would have liked to see someone actually care about it. I’d like to see them have to do something to make up for it. No draconian punishments or anything, just something to earn back the trust they should have burned.
But no. I just have bad ethics, based on simplistic rules and draconian punishments, that I just use to identify bad people.
Yeah, I concur that the psychoanalyzing being indulged in has invariably kept me out of the sickos camp–the notion that someone, somewhere, could have a different take on events is so unthinkable to some of them that they must invent entire new psychoses in order to account for that.
Obviously, not all the sickos have taken that approach, but some of the most vocal ones absolutely do.
As I acknowledged below, the hyperbolic language was too much, but how is acknowledging how peoples’ response to this situation might indicate something about their ethical views “inventing entire new psychoses?”
I apologize for the hyperbolic language. I can see how you’d take what I said as a simple accusation of “bad ethics” and understand why that would be upsetting. Even if I disagree with the ethical foundation of the views, that’s too much, and I should be more respectful.
Also getting tired of being — it feelss at this point willfully — misrepresented no matter jow plainly i try nktmo articulate kmmky actual feelings.
Fucking sucks comrade
Fucking KEYBOARD
and I thought the text breaking down in the middle “how plainly I try” was deliberate. 🙂
No i’m not that clever
Inflammatory rhetoric I’ve already apologized for aside, is the “They’re just looking for something to hate” comment I was disagreeing really preferable to my response of “No, they likely see morality through a somewhat different lens?”
Its not even about morals i just think its been fucking DULL
That’s the part that annoys me — the constant accusations of somehow being morally miswired for not liking one ship and one storyline in a comic whose author I’ve been reading longer than some fans have been alive.
Only in the way it again completely misunderstood what most of the “haters” actually want.
Okay… If you find it boring, then I’m not talking about you. Some people have been very aggressive about how awful the cheating is and have been railing against these two. Those are the people I’m talking about. People calling them the worst lesbians in fiction, wishing mild physical violence on them, and such.
I said “some people” not “everyone who dislikes the ship.”
I’ve always been neutral on the ship itself- there are aspects of it I can vibe with, and aspects I really don’t- but I’d probably have about 75% fewer complaints if Dorothy & Joyce had been single when they smooched.
Hear, hear!
Me and the haters are a Kismesis for the ages.
This is sweet. Glad to see Dorothy found her brain cells again.
What part of escape while you can didn’t you understand?
Does Becky’s sacrifice mean nothing?
If he’s off-panel, he can’t see. It’s dinosaur rules.
It’s right there in the book next to “talking is a free action”.
For real though, Becky taking that devastating of an emotional blow on the chin, and then immediately turning around and covering for them — that’s some incredible friend shit.
agreed, becky is a good friend. a best friend maybe?
She’s just a truly wonderful character all around. Friendly and nice and still complex and interesting! Gotta love the Beckster.
escape… to where? what exactly is the plan, dodge her dad for the next 40 years?
I’m pretty sure they need to immediately go find Jocelyne and tell her that her Dad is here and looking for her.
Taking actions that might decrease the chance that he notices their queer relationship for the near future might also be a good idea, but I assume that’s a secondary priority.
Or at least touch base on how she wants Joyce and Dorothy to approach him so they’re not flailing around and accidentally give something away. You know, like Joyce was constantly on the verge of doing by trying to play coy with Hank.
Pretty sure these two are incapable of not being queer around each other for more than a minute, tops, so they better figure SOMETHING out.
Hank is 10 feet away watching this and thinking “That’s still less gay than what I’ve previously seen between her and my daughter. Safe, I guess.”
Hank just thinking – “They’re happy together and I won’t have to worry about any unplanned pregnancies in her future. I’m calling that a win”
breathes a tiny sigh of relief
I was certain Joyce wasn’t gonna get there herself unless someone told her, thanks Dotty. Maybe we can get through this one without drama <– aware that this will not happen
Also iirc Becky’s church was on the more progressive and chill side, right? Could be good for Hank
I feel like last we heard about Becky’s taste in churches (back when Joyce was trying to seduce Jacob), Becky had said “ehh, I know God loves me, so personally I’ll take the worship band” — implication being that she’d willingly go to a non-progressive church if the music was good, I think…?
Is it this strip?
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-8/01-face-the-strange/howyoureallyfeel/
In Becky’s defense, I’m pretty sure she was being facetious.
I don’t know. It’s not always easy to see through Becky’s facade. She was definitely supporting Joyce’s viewpoint as part of the plot to get Joyce and Jacob together, but it also wouldn’t be surprising if she was having a more muted version of Joyce’s reaction to high church.
Joyce owes Becky at least two apology texts, a muffin and a hot beverage of her choice.
and a bottle of scotch
…… I know its a joke. But alcohol REALLY doesnt make anything better. Like, ever.
Its a cut-and-dry cellular toxin even in lowest doses, the organic/neurological damage accumulates AND its an impactful psychological depressant
(I had to learn that last one the hard way managing my own depression. Even in the best phases, stable, medicated ect, a single glass of wine could be enough to send me spiraling into the dark for days. Took me years to finally see the temporal co-occurrency for what it was. Direct cause and effect)
and more arbys packets
You two have gotta go make things right and proper with Joe and Walky so I can enjoy cute shit like this without all these conflicting emotions
Crossing all my fingers and toes
Right? These two are almost at the honeymoon phase, Walky was let down pretty harshly and Joe is still hanging.
Chain relationship, you say.
Walky has already replaced Dorothy with 250 pieces of deep-fried garbage. He’s been dealt with as much as he needs to be.
Joe’s still waiting on an answer but I imagine he’s patient, even if Joyce has done nothing but fuck around all morning.
Joyce just needs to get Joe into her field of vision again. Like the comments section, she hasn’t got object permanence.
soooo true!
Who the fuck is Joe?
Joe momma
[That clip of the emoji with its hands up in sorry, dissolving into nothingness]
Huh. Basing off my own experience, I thought that was an ADHD trait, not an autism trait. Or is that one of the many overlaps?
It can be – for me, at least, while I won’t necessarily forget the thing that’s not right in front of me, I can get sidetracked and I suck at keeping track of time. (My wife sometimes makes fun of my reliance on timers when cooking, but if I didn’t use them I’d burn dinner at least, and possibly the entire house.)
Food is a nightmare for me because of this lol. If we put everything away into the cabinets, then I won’t remember what we have. (Having small cabinets so everything is spread over 4-5 cabinets with inconsistent patterns doesn’t help). But leaving food out on the counter just leads to clutter. Likewise if the food in the fridge or freezer get pushed too far back in the shelves, I will forget it exists half the time and it will go bad before I get to it. Food waste is a big problem for my exact brand of adhd. Leaving everything out on the counter is just not tenable, even though I often do it for whatever the currently active bag or jar of snack is. If we had a bigger kitchen and could categorize storage locations better, it might work.
The only way storing things works for me is if I have a space that’s exclusively for that one type of item. No other item goes there, and all items of that category go there – ie shelf for PlayStation or Wii games. But because we have like 20 different shelves where books go, I can never remember where any book I want is.
This is why my wife cracks half-jokes that I have problems with object permanence, since I really do suffer a lot of the out of sight out of mind issues.
I hope they do make things right with them soon, but based on their behavior so far I’m not optimistic.
I mean other than dorothy talking to joe, he was fine with joyce ‘having’ dorothy too
I want you to imagine the “No take, only throw” comic, but it’s “No responsibilities, only cute shit.”
They should, but I disagree on the second part, I actually enjoy this more with the conflicting emotions.
A love story with zero conflict? That’s what I wish people in real life, but in media, I’ll take the silly drama with a side of vigilante antics please!
Joe is a lingering issue that WILL come up with all the emotional conflicts in play, most likely at the worst possible time to maximize the drama.
Walky’s part in this is done. So you can safely put that in the rearview mirror.
Bets? Why should Dorothy be okay with sharing with Joe unless she has the incentive of Walky too? But by the time this is worked out and agreed to, Walky is back with Amber.
I think rebound Walky was pretty clearly a substitute for Joyce, and now that Dorothy has real Joyce, she doesn’t need a sub any more. I expect that the conflict over poly will be Dorothy not wanting to share Joyce now that she’s got her.
“pulls up his sleeves”? Huh?
My guess based on nothing but inference is maybe it’s a lyric from the song Becky’s talking about
You are right. Thanks!
Yeah, it should have been “rolls up his sleeves” according to a quick Google search. But I mean c’mon, it’s been like 30+ years at this point.
Yeah, but you’ve got to tie it into the monster’s Putting on the Ritz scene in the Mel Brooks movie.
also yeah Dorothy is in the right here for doing whatever it takes to not out Jocelyne.
Any notion to the contrary is a result of falling back on long-ingrained, white Christian institution informed moral schemas desiring simple, finite rules such that obeying them down to the letter is morally correct in every context.
Both Dorothy in this particular situation and Mary elsewhere have done what very well counts as misgendering when their actions are taken out of context.
A simple, universally applicable moral rule can condemn either both of them or neither of them, but when justice requires identifying bigoted action, you just can’t do so without taking context into account; the problem we are trying to solve simply does not exist inside a social vacuum.
I think in Joyce’s case it’s probably at least partially autism chafing at having to apply nuance in these kinds of social situations. It’s difficult and stressful to navigate social interactions when the rules change depending on the situation and you don’t really understand the rules that well to begin with. It’s simpler and easier to just be able to call Jocelyne by her name, but there are other factors she has to consider and that’s draining.
And after she went through all that trouble to revise reality so that she’d never called her anything but “Jocelyne”…
I think there probably are moral schemas with finite rules which are complete, but simple they are not. Probably too complicated for a mere human to hold them all in mind at any one time. And so we handle that the same way we handle everything else, with intuition based fallible rules of thumb that are updated based on experience.
The problem with simple and absolute rules is they easily conflict, which means you have to define priorities between the rules, or exceptions to the rules…
Simple rules would be stuff like :
– don’t misgender people
– don’t out closeted people
If you add “don’t lie” from her childhood, that’s two conflicts in this situation with a set of only three rules!
If you don’t add in some priorities and exceptions, there is absolutely no way to apply those rules, which means they cannot stay simple.
Okay this one is cute, I like Joyce feeling feelings and Dorothy being a know-it-all (affectionate). Seeing their personalities interact like this really helps me to buy into their romance.
And at the same time I’m DYING for them to go find Jocelyne, or for Hank to discover about their kiss, or for something to blow up in somebody’s faces — this storyline is a powder keg and it’s stressing me ouuuuuuuuuuutttttttt
“The suspense is terrible. I hope it lasts.”
— Willy Wonka, also Willis, probably
Dorothy is right. Your sister’s safety is more important than your guilt.
Hes right in front if me isnt he
They’re starting to get there. Super cute final frame. Small gestures are better than big ones sometimes.
Exactly my feelings! So many of their prior romance scenes have been big and dramatic and just felt kinda melodramatic to me. Little interactions like this usually land more for me.
Exactly. I get the need for drama and the cheating arc should play out, but I would have preferred if their quiet moment in bed together, when Joyce basically said she wanted her first time to be with Dorothy, should have been the key moment. I was all in at that point.
OTOH, if I was Joyce in that last panel, my brain would have automatically shifted back into “makeout fun time” mode.
I may be ace, and even lean towards aro, but I still remember how enjoyable making out is, and how it felt to be in the throes of new love.
Dotty’s playing with fire, here.
Small nitpick: making out is sensual, not inherently romantic. Romantic attraction is about emotional attachments, not particular actions. In the same way sexual intimacy can express romantic affection, platonic affection, or simply be enjoyed for its own sake, sensual acts can mean any of these things, even if they’re even more strongly tied to romance than sex is.
So true. For me, the thing that finally brought me around to liking this ship was this, fairly similar moment: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/03-me-and-who-you-say-i-was-yesterday/exception/
They need to lure dad off campus, pronto. Longer he’s there the higher the odds of uncomfortable truth’s are discovered.
Like practically walking into Jocelyne in a dress?
That’s the most visual and dramatic way to find out about his daughter, so, that’s my prediction.
Does she wear dresses?
She was wearing a dress when she first showed up in this storyline.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2024/comic/book-15/02-the-one-where-jocelyne-returns/thestairs/
Ah, so she was.
i imagine she’s not in the area anymore, i don’t think she got injured but most likely if she is nearby prolly at a friends place and might not visit campus anymore, depends on where she left her phone too
…on the other hand, Jocelyne is kind of a wish-fulfillment character. I don’t want to see her disempowered (outed, at the mercy of her dad’s stupid first reaction, etc).
Also a bad reaction would make the readers unable to ever forgive Hank, and that’s not great with Carol already being 100% unforgivable. But most of all I really like when Jocelyne is boss and I don’t want the cisgender cast to take that from her.
I’d rather lots of characters are worried about an accidental outing, but then Jocelyne gets to tell her dad, perhaps a little earlier than she’d originally expected, but ultimately, very in charge of her own identity and choices. Yes. New prediction: that.
Becky’s girlfriend led a dad off-campus for her once. Becky is paying it forward to Joyce.
Some day Joyce will need to divert a dad off-campus for someone else.
Do grandfathers count? I’d love to watch someone waste Ruth’s grand-dad’s time.
Ooooh, Carol kept the church in the divorce.
Well, she invested the house money in it, after all.
I don’t think Hank wanted it
I think Hank was happy to let her have it at that point, tbh. I don’t think he’d still be going there even if she stopped
The church that bailed out the man that kidnapped their daughter? Yeah, didn’t want it.
Hehehehe ok that got me.
Honestly going to Becky’s church could be a really valuable eye-opening experience for Hank.
panel 6:
aaaand reset the clock.
Good instincts on not wanting to misgender your sister joyce, but yeah they did betray you here.
(I still wonder if she *would* be outing jocelyne though… I can’t help but remember that she texted joyce “I need to tell you something before you here it from dad”. Now that could mean “I’m planning to tell dad soon and I want to tell you first”, but.)
Yeah, your second one is how I read it.
Plus this way we have a Hank who doesn’t know that Jocelyne’s a girl, while walking around the same campus as her, in her dress. Suspense!
Becky kinda the goat huh? Don’t trust not misgendering if it will out someone. Is that the right sentence structure? I think it is. Want to avoid numerous negatives that inverse the intent.
I was discussing with friends but I wanna see people’s opinions.
Most DOA characters don’t really talk about anime but I chalk that up to Willis being from an older generation and not knowing being as familiar with modern anime fandom. So I wanted to say, what, if any Anime/Manga do you think the DOA cast watch/read?
I bet Ethan has definitely been told by multiple people to check out different Mecha anime like Voltron, Gurren Lagann, Evangelion, Big O and the like and while he appreciates it, none of it appeals to him the way Transformers does. And he’s getting a bit sick of all the constant “Ok but THIS one will hook you”
Ichi the Witch is kinda the new hotness right now. It’s a shounen battle about a boy who earns the ability to use magic in a world where typically only women can. I’m not sure who would vibe with Ichi in the cast though. Maybe Malaya?
Jennifer gives me big One Piece lifer vibes because of her commitment to knowing obscure Star Wars character Kit Fisto. Like she def knows the lore, watches Grandline Review videos and is disappointed Kaido got low diffed by a big gear 5 punch.
Kinda hard to figure out who would be into what beyond Carla very likely being super into Witch from Mercury. It’s cute gay girls in space piloting big robots.
Ethan definitely checked out a Brave series or two after hearing how the anime franchise spun out of Transformers, but it probably never clicked for him.
I picture Ethan bouncing off of Evangelion (‘wait, they’re not even robots, they’re organic beings with the souls of their main characters mothers in them? Pass, have you met my mom?’), but could see him revisiting it post-Mike, maybe watching End Of Evangelion a few too many times.
becky would probably appreciate cells at work and watch it with dina. science girls with hats
I wonder how Dina would like Gon?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gon_(manga)
Walky watches Basic entry level shonen like My hero, Demon Slayer, Dragonball Super (He’s only watched Super). He does not have the attention span to get into One Piece.
(Hot take. Billie DID read One Piece cuz Walky brought it up, but she quickly realized it was nerd shit and doesn’t talk about it but she’s caught up and really wants someone to discuss lore with her but also doesn’t wanna out herself. She got really frustrated when One Piece got super popular a few years ago cuz she was like “WHERE WERE YOU FANS WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL?”)
Jen’s a real One Piece fan, Walky’s a fake One Piece fan who dropped it before reverse mountain and only got back into it because of the live action. (All fans are valid. I’m only pretending to gatekeep for comedic effect.)
I’d just assume Walky watched Toonami. And for any episodes that were already like 100+ episodes in by the time he started watching, never bothered to look into the older episodes of those series
walky is 100% one of those annoying guys who watches exclusively battle shonen and ignores any and all storytelling nuance in favor of hype moments and aura. he’s kinda guy who watches Beyblade X and absorbs zero of the core themes and is just like “damn they never let bird win battles, this shit is so ass”
other than that, amber’s all over anything with yaoibait in it
Lucy is definitely into magical girls, right? Feels on brand to me
Mary would gorge on the Shin Chan dub on account of Georgie and his sister being a never-ending cascade of right-wing talking points
Jennifer would love Dandadan for the high school drama and aliens to geek out over XD
Joe and Joyce would watch JoJo’s bizzare adventure just because. like come on. it’s perfect. XD
Becky and Dina would love watching Dr Stone, the main character is a genius who has to revive human civilization in a post-appocalyptic future with the Power of Science B)
I forgot Mary is canonically a weeb. Her art style it completely based in copying anime and manga! It’s even weirder how conservative she is now that I realize she’s probably watched more anime than anyone in the cast.
I’ve thought about this more often than I care to admit. She really must be a pro at rationalizing media to suit her narratives
There are a shit ton of hyper conservitive anime fans.
I’m aware but that doesn’t make it any less strange to me. Even some of the most widespread and accessible anime repeat themes and depict subjects far outside what would be approved by traditional, western, conservative values. Classics like DBZ, Naruto or relatively new big hits like My Hero or Demon Slayer, perhaps it’s easy to dismiss as entertainment that doesn’t mean anything.
The fact that there’s super conservative one piece fans is like…baffling to me.
yeah like the same thing happens in regard to US superhero comics where fans dismiss any notion of social commentary, even for series like X-men where commentary on the Civil Rights movement were baked into it from the get-go
it’s less to do with the works themselves and more fandom circles in the United States being comprised mostly of politically illiterate white dudes who aren’t used to progressive takes on their niche interests and don’t want “political agendas” to “spoil” their enjoyment of their favorite works
these communities are built with good intentions as spaces where nerds and weebs are able to safely geek out without ridicule, and they are often unfortunately mislead by ardent reactionaries among them into fearing and painting over progressive ideas are a threat to their safety
Gunsmith Cats, Bubblegum Crisis, Ghost in the Shell–all are about gun-loving women who fight crime. GitS and BC, in particular, are very much fantasies about how awesome law enforcement is, while GC has lots of messaging the NRA would love.
There are also a ton of hyper conservative Star Trek fans.
Like, there’s conservative anime, though I don’t think there’s much at all that’s specifically conservative in a Christian way — but conservatives are adept at ignoring the messaging of media.
“Since when is Superman an immigrant” since literally forever that is foundational to his story you just can’t read for themes because you think literary criticism is stupid and worthless, so characters need to spell out that they’re anti-racist before you actually get it.
And both Star Trek (“Let That Be Your Last Battlefield”) and Superman literally did exactly that. Hell, there was a poster back in the ’50s with Superman telling a group of kids that being racist was anti-American. But somehow, these people just close their eyes and blunder on, and then when they’re forced to see it later they try to claim the “wokeness” is something that was forced into the narrative by “modern liberals”.
Yep!
SteveShives did a good video on conservative Trek fans, diving into what kinds of things in it DO appeal to these people, but they do literally have to be ignoring very loud messaging in order to get to those parts.
I’m sure it’s the same thing with Superman. Conservatives like that he’s a super strong guy who punches the baddies. They were also big fans of Snyder’s put-upon, “misunderstood” Superman, probably because that’s how they see themselves when they lose all their friends for being shitty people. “They aren’t giving me a chance, they don’t understand that I just want what’s best for this country citation needed!” sort of an attitude.
(Shoved definitely also made this point about Superman but he’s done a lot of Superman videos and I couldn’t immediately discern from their titles which was the one that talked about Snyder!Superman’s specific appeal.)
*Shives not shoved thanks autocorrect
For that matter, I remember Kirk telling a crewmember “leave your racism in your cabin; it has no place on the bridge.” Or words to that effect.
In “Balance of Terror”. Lt. Stiles (whose family had lost several members in the Earth-Romulus War a century earlier) finally got to see what a Romulan looked like (they’d used nuclear scuttle charges during the war, and negotiated the treaty over subspace radio with no images). He made a snarky remark about Spock. Kirk told him, “Leave your bigotry in your quarters. There’s no room for it on my bridge.”
Booster would get a kick out of Psycho-Pass, it’s psych-to-go meets far future crime drama XD
Amber would like Kemeko Deluxe because it’s horny, CHAOTIC and just plain ridiculous XD
also it has the catchiest opening theme ever IMO:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTTmtybpkHU
I actually think Amber’s the big Jojo nerd cuz she loves the strong yet feminine men and aesthetic. She writes SO much fanfiction.
true
oh! Walky would like One Punch Man cuz lets face it, the over-the-top satirical superhero comedy is well enjoyed alongside that of Dexter and Monkey Master
Sal would LOVE the radical rebel tale that’s called Kill La Kill
Danny would do songs from FLCL just for fun
Lucy would love Black Clover and Little Witch Academia for being Harry Potter but better and without the toxic shit
and something tells me that Daisy would love Food Wars for the… well i mean it’s obvious XD
isn’t there technically a transformers anime? I assume there’d be a pretty similar anime to whatever dexter monkey master stuff walky is into
Amber would def be into all the bl stuff
It’s too old for me to actually expect it to have happened, but now that I’m considering it I would still like to picture newly atheist Joyce seeking out things that would show how very much she’s not buying into the brainwashing anymore and landing on Angel Sanctuary. Maybe tossed at her by Amber.
Angel sanctuary was the GOAT and it’s awesome to see it mentioned here of all places. What a hot mess of a manga and yet so pretty, so moving, so interesting.
I’m gonna say that there was one girl at boarding school with a crunchyroll subscription and a particular genre interest, and so Sal has an encyclopedic knowledge of every otome game isekai anime that has ever been (and a load of manga that don’t have anime adaptations).
Sliding timescale means that anything y’all come up with will be considered hopelessly old and uncool, probably very soon.
I really wanna say Ethan got into Brave Bang Bravern but it kinda hard clashes with his early characterization and arc and doesn’t really fit his current emo arc either so imma just pencil it in for his later watch list when he’s in a mentally healthier place
(for anyone unfamiliar with the series, its an explicitly homosexual love triangle but one of the characters in said triangle is a giant mech who reeeeally likes his pilot)
I can see Walky and Dorothy both watching “My Hero Academia”, and enjoying it for different reasons — Dorothy gets into the deeper themes of human nature, betrayal and loss, the hero’s journey, and redemption, while Walky likes the superhero action, and identifies with Deku’s never-say-die attitude.
Joyce recently discovered “That Time I Was Reincarnated as a Slime” and loves it because of its positive attitudes, and because the goblins are adorable.
Joe would never admit it, but he occasionally watches magical girl anime, though not as much as he used to because he was traumatized in his early teens by watching “Puella Magi Madoka Magica”.
Sal will watch anything that has motorcycles or giant mechs fighting each other.
guess we’ll see 6 more kisses this year… over/under
can’t be gainsaid that Dorothy rly likes Joyce’s emotions
Re the alt text: gosh, someone actually remembers that “Awesome God” has verses. I thought people only ever sang the chorus 😛
I’m less fond of that song than I used to be since my theology changed, but whatever else negative can be said of it, at least it isn’t *fatuous*. Singing only the chorus makes people think of the wrong meaning of “awesome”.
It is one that still gets stuck in my head rolling around. Our teen Mass had a “rock band” for the choir and despite 0 singing ability I was in the choir.
Love this. So much.
It kinda bothers me that Joyce actually needed Dorothy to remind her that things going on around her are not all about how she feels and what she wants. Obviously Jocelyne’s safety is more important than how Joyce feels about misgendering her to protect her. Though I think it would be interesting if it turns out that Hank isn’t nearly as bothered by Jocelyne being trans as they expect.
Joyce’s honesty is possibly related to her neuroatypicalness. Some of us are very confused at the concept of lying.
Not me of course.
I mean…no, I never lie!
Much agreed, it’s embarrassing how much I relate to Joyce almost fumbling this one. Sometimes you just gotta lie, even to your dad!
I can lie, but it generally goes so poorly that it’s easier to just tell the truth. That way I don’t have to remember who I told what to, as well.
Joyce has been established as a very emotional person and very black and white thinking, it will take time for her to adapt to that. Remember, it’s been less than a year in universe since just thinking “impure thoughts” would freak her out
Yep, also, her dad showing up was a complete surprise and she hadn’t exactly had time to work through the morality of “it’s okay to misgender someone for their safety”.
Plus she’s from a religion where she was told that God keeps tabs on literally all of her negative behaviors and sins and will judge her on them, so yeah.
tbf she didn’t even know carla was trans until mary ‘outed’ her , so she prolly isn’t familiar with the whole “don’t out lgbt ppl in front of parents” and such
As well as when her mom first met sarah like “Wow a black roommate, i’ll have to brag to the other church goers that you’re not racist”
To be fair, Sierra was no better when she almost outed Joyce in front of her dad a few strips back.
That was yesterday.
Yes, that’s obvious.
When you know trans folks or are trans yourself, it’s obvious.
Joyce has known she has a sister for like. Two days.
Also, like. It still feels shitty. It feels shitty to misgender someone you care about even when you know it’s what they’re want. It is in fact okay that Joyce took a few seconds to sit with that feeling and had to have it pointed out that her feelings aren’t the thing to focus on right now?
Not to mention that she doesn’t, actually, know for sure that this is what Jocelyne would want from her: they haven’t talked about it yet. Joyce and Dorothy are making the best, safest guess they can, but it IS a guess, and that’s gonna add to the feeling-shitty.
Plus, you know, all of this is happening while Joyce is also newly aware she’s bi and even though the focus is currently on protecting her sister, there’s also gotta be some anxiety over how her dad will take that news.
So. idk, I don’t think this is something to be disappointed in her over.
Plenty of other reasons over the last couple of months!
This. She’s only been very recently exposed to trans people, and it’s very, very common for people who are new to gender etiquette to need some advice about situations that are more complex than “gender people correctly.”
Gawd but these two are dull.
Can we move on?
well, the blurry patreon preview seems to focus on jen so hopefully she’s not duller to you lol
I may be the minority.
I usually am.
I miss Shortpacked. ‘Dumbing of’ has been a downgrade, TBH.
I miss the ‘good willis’
theyre the main characters of the comic, so get used to it.
How come every time I watch Dragon Ball, Goku is being focused on for a large portion of it?
I mean, depends on if you’re watching original DB or DBZ. In DB? Absolutely, he’s being focused for most of it.
DBZ? He’s out of order for a huge chunk of all the sagas and only really comes out to play for real during the final battles.
No.
i mean. unlike Dumbing of Age, Goku is absolutely the most boring character in Dragon Ball
*Z specifically. he runs out of character development by the time Gohan’s born
Wrong.
That’s true, or at least Joyce is, but we often get them interspersed with arcs about other characters and since at least the protest that hasn’t really happened. The only times we’ve shifted away from these two directly has been to others finding out or dealing with the fallout from the protest.
i dont think amazigirl or sal care very much
About the fallout from the protest? Weird, given Amazigirl’s condition.
ngl i thought you meant “fallout from the protest” as just the joyrothy stuff. do you not want… anyone to have any unrelated thoughts about the very important moment in national history??? you want to move on completely???
I’m not sure how to read that, but the point was that in most past storylines we’d have essentially B plots basically unrelated to the main plot. (Or it would be even more divided with no clear main plot for a particular day.) We could look in on Sal and Danny or on Billie and Alice and it wouldn’t just be to interact with the main focus characters or like Sal/AG or the bit with Asma/Raidah/Alice here still deal with a linked issue.
That way readers who aren’t into one particular plot can have a breather and something to enjoy.
I suspect, like in a few other arcs, there’s just too much to get through in here so there’s no time to shift focus.
Finally back to the real meat of this webcomic; girls kissing.
Fuck I only just now noticed there wearing red and blue versions of the same outfit, that’s kind of adorable
Well more like pink and blue but still
gotta love matching couple outfits
aaaaaaaagh they are so cute in their matching-style-but-different-color outfits
heh, now I get to feel all smug because my comment on the 17th is what Dorothy is saying in the third panel. Sometimes misgendering a trans person is actually keeping them safe, this is something very very important allies need to understand
Oh nice, a calm and pleasant kiss.
We needed that after everything, and before everything coming up, methinks.
I would hope most kisses would be pleasant lol but i can imagine her dad will find out eventually
I want to vote in the poll, but there’s no “both” option… 🙁
USA election only having 2 parties 🤝 Willis
well it’s split 50/50 anyways buti imagine most ppl still want both
Also damn I never noticed how wide the hallway in the dorms is you could drive a truck through there.
Enough room for amazigirl to parkour and install more trap doors/escape hatches in 8D;
Have to be prepared for Carla transforming into Ultracar, after all.
Film crew uses wide angle lens for corridor setup.
Hank going 2 services per Sunday? In the history, he and the Browns visited a lot of churches, and the chosen one bailed Toedad.
He will be forever a die hard christian, and I’m afraid it will refrain him to be better in other points.
he said he’s between churches so i assume he didn’t go today
tho i vaguely remember in the past joyce going either to multiple churches or the same one at diff times either to see tristan or some other reason
Twice to the same one, to not miss anyone.
“I’m… between churches at the moment” euphemistically suggests he’s not going to church currently and may not be going back – at minimum, that he’s left the ToeDad-supporting church the family used to go to and hasn’t found a new one yet.
I’m pretty sure “between churches” is Hank’s euphemistic way of saying that he is not currently associating himself with a congregation, much like how an unemployed person would say they are “between jobs.”
I got this doubt about “between churches” because baptist christians used to go church twice in every Sunday…
Bit it makes sense, after reading what Becky suggested.
I think “between churches” means 0 services, because he hasn’t found another one yet after leaving the old one. Same way people will say they’re “between jobs” if they’re unemployed or “between girl/boyfriends” if they’re single.
The fact that he’s taking some time away from the churches to actually think before committing to another one means he is actually thinking critically now about exactly what kind of group he’s willing to stand with and what he stands for, so I think there’s hope. Becky’s a die-hard Christian too, but she’s a very different flavor of it than Carol, particularly in that her new church is way more accepting of queer people. Going with Becky and maybe checking out her church might be a good call for him, especially right now. Being a fundie isn’t the only Christian option he has, and it sounds like he’s actively looking for the other options now.
Possibly their best kiss so far IMO, and they’ve been pretty good.
But also, not a good moment. Wait until Hank is either a) Safe to talk about it or B) Gone home.
‘Between churches’ is like the old term ‘between jobs’ i.e. unemployed.
He currently is not a memeber of any church.
When you’re told your entire life that life is as simple as X and Y, anyone doing Y must be Pure Evil. Hank is not having a good time right now, and seems to have doubled down on prejudice in order to cope.
i personally think its sweet that Joyce is so reluctant to misgender someone, even if she knows doing so would technically be protecting her.
It’s sweet, sure… But it’s also potentially dangerous for Jocelyne. We don’t yet know how Hank feels about transgender people, and we don’t know if Jocelyne would feel comfortable with being outed to him, so refusing to misgender her could very well not be acting in her best interests.
As someone who is transgender myself, and who was outed to part of my family without my consent, I can honestly say that while I wish we lived in a society where that wasn’t an issue and we could just tell everyone that we’re transgender without fear of reprisal, that’s not the world we live in, and you DO NOT out someone without their explicit permission. If I was afraid of a violent reaction from someone finding out I’m transgender, I’d much rather be deadnamed and misgendered than outed to them, even accidentally.
I’m aware.
But are the *go*ing to Jocelyne?
But are they…
If only they had some way of contacting. Like a phone, but mobile, that they were shown reading a message from Jocelyne a few strips ago, then they could use this device to contact her instantaneously.
You’d think that would be urgent with how the threat of her outing was previously serious enough to send them into a dangerous protest situation.
But we gotta talk about how it makes the cis people feel first
I’d need to double check things and it’s possible that I’m wrong on the order of events, but if I remember the timeline correctly, Joyce wasn’t aware that Hank was coming until he literally showed up knocking at her door, and the two of them have been talking for the few minutes that he’s been there, so Joyce hasn’t had a chance to message Jocelyne about Hank being there yet.
Of course, even if she WAS aware that Hank was on his way, she’s been in panic mode all morning, and as we’ve already seen with the shenanigans that she’s been getting up to, that doesn’t exactly lead to the most intelligent of decision making.
So, it’s not like it’s all that unrealistic that Joyce wouldn’t think to message Jocelyne to warn her that Hank was there. Either she hasn’t had a chance, or she’s been so panicked that she didn’t think about that simple and obvious solution.
My snark is more that warning her about Hank was, like 24 hours ago, so important that they broke through a police cordon.
Now he’s actually here they’re standing in a hallway telling each other how great they are rather than being “oh shit I’ve gotta text Jocelyn that dad’s on campus with the express purpose of finding her.”
I think Joyce texted Jocelyne already. She stayed behind for a moment when Dorothy and Hank left and was doing something with her phone in the first panel of yesterday’s strip.
If that is what is meant to have happened then jesus it’s done badly. I had to go back and forth twice before I could see what you were talking about.
Wouldn’t have hurt to have her holding phone and typing so those of us with not great vision have a chance of seeing that detail.
Also if Jocelyn *was* sent a message, then what was the narrative point of Becky diverting Hank?
I presumed it was to give them time to get a warning to Jocelyn while she distracted him. Which makes no sense if Joyce had sent a message, because now it’s just to give Joyce a moment to be all golly gee trans people sure do make things difficult
I don’t know, but it has to mean something. Joyce said on the page before “You two go on ahead. I’ll be .. right after” and then she catches up and there’s the phone with little motion lines.
It’s subtle, but Willis has done things like that before. Maybe it wasn’t texting Jocelyne, but it was something.
I thought that was her not wanting to step off the newspapers until he walked away.
Becky doesn’t know that Hank is here for Jocelyne. She may not even know that Jocelyne is still in town. She’s was getting Hank away from Joyce & Dorothy before they outed themselves.
If that’s the case I have even more questions from a narrative perspective like why should I think Hank will just forget about his daughter three feet away long enough for her to… escape? Like Becky said ‘go’ to them – but go where and to what end? And, if she doesn’t know about Jocelyn, go why?
If Hank’s there in the dorms he’s obviously not just going to forget about it if Joyce runs off, he’s going to become more suspicious and follow them. Or just wait for Joyce to come back to her dorm. It makes no damn sense for Becky to tell them to go if she was just wanting to change the subject.
This whole arc has just felt that the people who aren’t Joyce or Dorothy are there to have a strip or two of dialogue with no resolution (but teasing at some possible future thing that might happen) before leaving or getting interrupted.
It’s just endless walking and going places with apparent urgency that ends up not being urgent and digressions and bathos and important plot points that may or may not have happened off screen and…
I’m just frustrated because things like this happen and I was thinking oh cool Hank’s here we’re getting to the nitty gritty of this all and then it’s talk
aboutaround birth control for some reason then Becky whisks him away and well I guess that’s over now.A lot is happening, but nothing’s happened.
whenarewegettingtothefireworksfactory dot gif goes here
(this rant isn’t at you, I’m just frustrated because I want to enjoy this! But the plotting and pacing are not good at all imo)
I dunno, I thought Becky interrupted because Hank was asking a question Joyce wasn’t ready to answer, after sort-of being outed by Sierra.
glxblt, cute!
I kinda like that Joyce/Dorothy are doing a red/blue colour pair while emphasising their emotional/smart complementary natures.
I do feel this update is a glimpse of how they make each other even better… 😀
Daaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwww
Off-screen, Hank turns around just in time to witness the last panel.
“I’m glad Joyce has made such a good friend in college,” he thinks. “Maybe next year they could be roommates; imagine how much money they’d save on housing”
They’re gonna need the extra money, since Carol sold the house and now Hank lives in I guess a windowless garage outside Burbank or someshit, so I’m not sure there’s gonna be any substantial inheritance for Joyce, once the parents inevitably croak before she graduates.
He’s a dentist, right? He’ll be okay as long as Americans eat way too much sugar in their foods and drinks (so: forever)
Maybe he sleeps in his office. Those chairs might actually be comfy when there isn’t someone there rummaging around in your mouth.
Heck, I’ve managed to almost fall asleep in them even with someone rummaging around in there
Hank’s between churches? This would be a hell of a time for Hank to reveal to Joyce that he’s an atheist too. Given everything that happened with Toedad and Carol, I wouldn’t blame him, tbh.
I think it’s going to take a lot more for him to jump from “OK, I’ve just found out that the church my kids grew up in was pretty terrible actually,” and, “Hey, maybe the thing that all these churches had in common was their worship of God.”
Of course, finding out that “Joshua” is actually Jocelyne and that Joyce is actually in a gay relationship that not only she but also Becky were afraid of him finding out about because of his religious beliefs as well as being confronted by the facts of what those at the protest were protesting compared to what he was told the protest was about would be pretty major blows to his beliefs. I doubt it will be enough for him to become an Atheist – remember, it took a LOT for Joyce to become an atheist, and Becky kept her faith despite going through only slightly less than Joyce did – but it might shock him out of a lot of the Conservative ideology that he’s fallen prey to.
We can only hope. At the very least, it might shake him into agnosticism.
Or just into a non-shitty church. Those do exist, albeit thin on the ground.
I don’t even necessarily think they are. I think it’s just the only churches on television and in the media are the Right Wing ones descended from segregationist ones and the televangelist corporations (which are both the same).
Honestly when he said ‘between churches’ I immediately thought he’d gone to a sunrise service, and was on his way to an afternoon one.
That would be “between services”. “Between churches” does carry much of the same weight as “between jobs” or “between homes”.
Based on the latest survey results about how USians experience religion in general, I think it’s honestly more likely he’d fall into “believer, but avoiding the idiocy of modern organized religion”.
He’s had a long-term habit of “hopping between churches trying to find one that was completely aligned with his conscience”, based on older strips, and a lot of folks who want to be more liberal than the evangelicals will allow but also want to be less rigidly defined than the high churches will allow end up in that weird limbo.
Until they find the Quakers or Unitarians, anyway.
Joyce at least knows those exist, vaguely! She callled them “hippie” churches with the mild disparagement of an older conservative, and then immediately realized that was the type of church she belonged at.
I hope if Hank stays religious and still wants to attend church, he decides that’s where he belongs, too.
Speaking as an ex-Catholic who floats between Quaker, Unitarian, and Reconstructionist Judaism (all three of which scratch my particular agnostic itch), there’s usually plenty of room here. (except at High Holidays)
Yeah.
And like, look, I’m agnostic, I’m queer, and ever since I can remember I’ve always found the trappings of Christianity discomfiting.
But for a lot of people, it’s the opposite, and that’s literally fine.
If Hank comes out of this an atheist, that would ALSO be fine, but he doesn’t have to. He can follow Lucy and Becky’s model instead. Both are valid choices??? And I can definitely see it going both ways.
I can see him being just… exhausted from trying to find The Right church, something he seems to have been doing for decades, and giving up. I can especially see what happened with his ex-wife as having dealt a bit of a fatal blow to his faith. I can see that being something he and Joyce bond over and grow closer because of, and maybe he might even get to not only keep Joyce and Jocelyne, but to also reconnect with Jordan.
Or maybe he’ll go to Becky’s church while he’s in town and he’ll discover it’s exactly what he was always looking for, he just didn’t know to try that specific type of church because of the inherited prejudice against “hippie” churches that he probably got from his own parents and passed down to Joyce.
(There is a church position that reading the Bible while LOOKING for it to allow xyz behavior is inherently sinful. Somehow the folks with this viewpoint still tend to treat the King James Bible as sacrosanct, even though it was literally retranslated so James could divorce his wife. Divine right of kings, I guess! Anyway, this group looks down on “hippie” churches. I imagine Joyce’s view on them, and therefore also Hank’s, was probably more “misguided” than “demonic”, but still “bad”.)
…but also, third possibility: I can also see what happened with Carol making all of this (having one bi daughter and one trans daughter) just… a bridge too far? I can see him taking it as a sign that he’s been doing the wrong thing. “I decided to be accepting of Becky even though I wasn’t sure God would be cool with it, and then he took my wife from me. I refused to see that as the message it was, and so God punished me further by making two of my children………”
Well, insert whatever word you want there. It doesn’t even have to be a hateful word: a lot of parents are afraid of having queer kids not because they think it’s evil to be queer but because they know it’s HARD. You never want your kids to suffer, and so often being different means suffering.
I imagine that, at the very least, Hank is wrestling with that sort of possibility. Especially if he knows Jocelyne is trans? And that that’s why he’s “between churches”. He stuck by Joyce before because he felt like God was telling him to listen to her; I imagine he’s currently struggling to decide what God is telling him now, if not also whether that’s anything at all.
Accepting basically all your post as well said, I’m going to add that it’s interesting, I don’t particularly care for the trappings of Christianity, but I LOVE formal and ritual observance of basically anything. THAT’s the “Catholic” programming.
Lowkey one of the best reasons I found for me to be in a “fraternity” rather than a “club” as an atheist/agnostic, for the record. You get a whole bunch of pseudo-Greek/pseudo-Masonic ritual that’s not really analogous to anything in any religion that caused you any damage.
Heh, thanks. 🙂
I don’t think it’s at all weird, but that may be because I have a bunch of Jewish mutuals, and one of the threads I’ve seen them dive into is how much humans (generally) like rituals.
If we’re not religious, we tend to find other ways to incorporate ritual into our lives. Tumblr’s full of these — “Wet Beast Wednesday”, as an example that will just sound completely bizarre to anyone not familiar with it. Chain letters and asks are a type of ritual. Having a specific time of day or week set aside to watch a show with a loved one is a type of ritual. Starting the day with a particular stretch routine, bubble baths with specific bath bombs, getting a lotto ticket every Friday…
We like rituals, big and small. 🙂 Just gotta be rituals we associate with good things.
There’s also the ‘identifying as Christian and being a believer without going to a church at all’ route out there.
It’s weird, but not too weird I suppose, that a fair portion of mainstream surveys accidentally or purposefully lump that response in with “identifying as Christian by default but not going to church at all”, which I personally think IS substantially different.
I’m just going anecdotally off my dad, who is very devout/ active in faith and wpuld if pressed self-identify as a Baptist, but doesn’t see the ‘point’ in having a preacher or pastor. To him his faith is between him and God.
But he’s weird in a lot of ways. Absolute hodgepodge of fundie and progressive beliefs.
This is cute and all, but I miss Ruth. We need like 450% more Ruth at all times
450% of zero is still zero. 🙁 Why don’t you want any more Ruth in the comic?
Good point. Start with 1% Ruth and the. Apply the math.
whenever ruth isn’t onscreen, everyone should be asking “Where’s Ruth???”
Willis needs to start hiding a small png of Ruth in every strip
And gradually make it larger every day. Until it consumes the comic. All strips are Ruth strips now. ALL COMMENTS ARE RUTH COMMENTS NOW.
Gonna rep the haters today and note that my eyes rolled so hard I nearly hurt myself. Bring back Amazigirl.
What did you hate about this?
If you anti-ship something, it’s pretty rare for the writing showing you the two characters being cute together to actually make you feel any differently about them. Like, speaking from experience, often times it just feels out of character. “That character would not say that!” isn’t a fun viewing experience to have.
Might also be two bumbling cis girls saying basic obvious stuff about being trans allies? I can see that prompting eye rolls too even though I liked it. But given “haters”, probably the first one.
Hating DoJo as a couple is a perfectly valid form of artistic criticism, especially since they somehow have LESS charisma and charm collectively than they did as individual characters. This pairing is approximately as exciting as bleached flour, especially since Willis has leached all the drama or interest out of it by juxtaposing it against Jocelyne, the protest, and the general lack of anyone calling out their bad behavior except Sarah once for ten seconds.
Ya, pretty much all of this. I don’t think I could have said it more succinctly. I used to enjoy strips with these two in them, but as a couple they are so one-note that it’s becoming grating.
To put on my tinfoil hat and go the absolute most pessimistic route, I could observe that we might be skipping past all the drama and clearing a open path for DoJo with no resistance, because this is the fastest route to collecting on Slipshine and Patreon bucks. I don’t think this is the real reason, but to play my own devil’s advocate I’d argue that the writing has done nothing to demonstrate otherwise.
If he wanted that, he could have simply not had them kiss at the protest or had them tell their boyfriends first or any number of other things that would have had literally zero drama.
We are closer to that than we are to the explosions and destruction people seem to want in response to them cheating, but there isn’t zero drama. I also think it’s important to recognize the build up to their big kiss as part of the story, too. There was a lot of drama and resistance and back and forth there. How many times did Dorothy argue with herself that it was trauma, not love, or that they couldn’t be together for “so many reasons?”
I’m not necessarily saying you have to like it, but claiming that what we’re seeing is the path of least resistance to another Slipshine seems pretty clearly false.
See, yeah, THAT is going too far. Willis can write something that many of us find unsatisfying without having any particular ill motive — and it’s clear, honestly, that most of the audience IS satisfied with it, balance of the polls and/or comments section(s) nonwithstanding.
Joyce also went nearly white with concern when Jocelyn suggested they and Becky “break in” to Becky’s old house.
Likewise not the rightest thing to do but certainly leading to a greater good.
Oh, I’d fully argue that breaking in was *the* right thing to do there.
oh god this is MOOD. also playing the game of “which random stranger can I just talk with about my SISTER without worrying about it getting back to people who know us”
And that is why they are a good couple – complimentory skillsets
I swear to all that is holy if you two hit step 1 on my DoJo flowchart NOW I’ll…
…well, probably I’ll just keep being a hater.
Pfff.
We’re glad you approve =P
It just made me chuckle. 🙂 As long as you’re not hating the experience of reading the strip!
Thaaaat’s not luck, a dingus.
THEY’RE CUTES…
SO ADORABLY GAY!!!!!
So cute. I just love them to pieces.
I wonder how Hank didn’t figured out that about Jocelyne.
Like, she wasn’t using a wig when she visited Joyce last week, right?
I haven’t had a haircut since the Reagan administration, and I’m not trans.
There is a bonus strip where Hank is walking with Jocelyne way back when and he notes that she’s growing out her hair, which makes her nervous.
Then he chuckles and says he did the same thing in college.
There ARE changes but so far they’re nothing she can’t hide with the right coat, as we saw when she was waiting in the lobby for Joyce to come down and was soothing herself that she could always keep her coat on if she decided not to come out to Joyce.
Hair length doesn’t necessarily have to indicate gender. Men can have long hair and short hair, same for women, and all flavors of gender. My dad had hair long enough to pull it back into a bun for a time post-Covid.
You’re not in their particular Christian cult. Hair is as gendered as everything else is. To quote Ross “Your hair is your womanhood.”
It’s not “misgendering” if you are talking to someone they are not out with. If you do, it’s outing them without their consent, which is worse.
Your dad who you need to keep misgendering your sister to, will not hear these comments, but your sister you keep misgendering, will.
For more hater perspective:
This sort of strip, Dorothy & Joyce being a couple and doing couple things, makes me feel nothing. It exists, they’re cute, sure, whatever, what’s for lunch?
And since I feel that way, this arc is so goddamn unsatisfying.
Because it’s obvious that DoJo being affectionate with each other is supposed to be an emotional payoff for…*gestures broadly at state of comic*. It’s supposed to be the narrative taking a brief pause to breathe and give the reader some good feels before it dives back into whatever Charlie Foxtrot is upcoming.
One of the reasons Becky diving on a Hank-shaped grenade moments after having her heart ripped out is supposed to be validated is because it distracted Hank long enough for today’s strip to occur. And if you don’t accept that as a valid reason, well, it looks like Becky did this just so these two could continue to stamp on her heart.
Additonally, I find the recent string of encounters that DoJo have had to be *really* unsatisfying. Sarah calls them to task? Over in 2 strips and seems to have gone in one ear and out the other. Joyce tries to come clean to Joe- 4 strips and then she runs off. Joyce and Dorothy confront Daisy? 2 strips mostly about Joyce’s comic. Jennifer shows up? 2 strips worth of commentary and inexplicable rizzing of Dorothy. Becky gets her heart ripped out? Like 5 strips and then she runs off. Hank shows up? Less than a week later and he’s already off-panel for now.
Individually, I don’t have a problem with any one of those encounters being pretty darn short. But taken in aggregate and it’s really weird to read. It’s like the narrative is playing Whack-a-Mole when it comes to things that might get in the way of strips like today’s- a problem pops up and it’s knocked back down as quick as possible, and then the next one pops up.
seems like it makes you feel rather a lot
Well, no, that’s the point. Lots of other strips in this arc have made me feel things. Some of those feelings are definitely intended (feeling bad for Becky, for example), and they’re mostly negative. So here’s this strip intending to be a big burst of positivity to lighten the mood.
But it makes me feel nothing so I’m still carrying that negativity from the previous strips.
I read Becky’s intent not as a “Hey, you two lovebirds get out of here and be happy with each other while I distract dear old dad for you,” it was more of a, “Hey, get out of here before you idiots get yourselves and Jocelyne outed and get Joyce pulled out of college!”
It’s still a hell of a thing for her to do since she’s still processing Joyce and Dorothy being a thing (and apparently having feelings for each other for the entire school year) – but it’s definitely not a feel good, “You go, girls!” more of an, “I’m saving you’re stupid butts.”
But running away is a weird approach here. How’s Hank going to react to that? It’s not like he’s just going to shrug and think “Joyce isn’t here anymore. Guess I’ll go home.”
It just makes things worse.
they have at least a few minutes to regroup, maybe text the sister, rather than dealing with hank literally as he appears
And this is surprising… how, exactly? Becky’s very much an act first, think later sort of gal, and neither Joyce nor Dorothy are exactly good at hiding things from other people. It’s all going to go down sooner or later – which is probably why it’s hard to appreciate this moment of relationship building between Dorothy and Joyce.
Hopefully, they take the chance to catch Jocelyne and get her advice on how to handle this, since she’s the only one in Joyce’s circle who both knows what’s going on (well, most of it – Becky’s reaction would be at least something of a surprise) and has the maturity to actually work things out. I don’t think we’re going to avoid family drama here – but I have a feeling that’s going to be the best way to get through it.
You’re speaking as if everything has been resolved, but of the people you’ve mentioned: Sarah, Joe, Walky, Daisy, Jennifier, Becky, and Hank, I think only one, Daisy, is probably concluded. This is not going to be the last we hear from any of these characters, in part because most are consistently recurring characters. Hell, I’m sure we’re going to be hearing from Raidah, Amazigirl/Amber, Dina, and more.
I don’t really read this as the end of the arc of them getting together. I think it’s better to read this sequence (basically everything after their first kiss) as the beginning of them being together. We’re getting a rapid tour of all the spinning plates they now have, and what comes next will be seeing them trying to manage all of them.
To add to the above, I understand a desire to want each major conflict they’ll need to address to be fully explored and concluded before moving on to the next. In some ways, that would be more satisfying. However, that tends not to be Willis’s style. He tends to jump around a lot, interleaving many different conflicts and characters rather than staying focused on one at a time. That isn’t specific to this arc.
yeah a lot of people seem to think all the things that have happened are resolved because they’re not currently being focused on
however, much like hank asking “is that your brother” via text, the thing that sent joyce and dorothy to the protest, it’ll probably all come back around – like hank showing up at joyce’s door just now.
Yeah, I have a feeling that that’s what’s driving a lot of the dissatisfaction with the current arc. There are a lot more plates spinning around this particular conflict than usual, and it kinda feels like everything’s being sucked into it one way or another. Great if you like the subject of the story – but if you don’t, there’s nowhere to look to in order to try to escape it.
[joking] Cue Danny and Sal renting out a recording room again. [/joking]
Well said Dotty. These two are cute. <3
Boy im glad I really love the two main characters of this comic. This seems like it'd be miserable if I had mistaken it for a complete ensemble, and also thought for some reason the camera should be yanked off the main characters in the middle of being in love with each other openly for the first day!
It feels a little lazy having Hank be pro genocide. This is the same Hank that realized the sickness in his church when they tried to hand wash away the kidnapping of his daughter by old Toehead. Who divorced his wife because of her zealotry.
It’s also the same Hank who needed them to go that far to realize the sickness in the first place. He hasn’t had his face rubbed in the genocide by anyone he cares about yet.
They’re gonna be together fifty years.