the question is, which is the modifier and which is the subject. Attorneys General makes sense because the General modifies the Attorney, so if the Hanky is the subject, and the panky is the modifier, it would be hankies panky.
Then make your own damn comment about it instead of replying to someone else’s who’s just enjoying it. You made the decision to reply to someone else enjoying it to SPECIFICALLY yuck their yum, and now you’re hiding behind an excuse of giving feedback about the comic. It’s a dick move.
Does anyone actually have sort of authority in this? I’m thinking that not even that Willis person (who allegedly makes all this stuff) has any authority here. I say we’re all a collective anarchy!
pretty sure even if we saw Ethan and Asher interact more regularly they’d still be the lowest energy couple in the entire cast
that’s kinda their whole thing
I’m not sure that’s a distinction here, She doesn’t like it when Dorothy calls Joe her ex and If she wasn’t considering she’d have to trouble telling Dorothy about Joe’s proposal, a part of her wants to keep his offer on the table.
She did say “no” (“I cannot date two people at the same time”), she just didn’t have the chance to finish explaining herself. And a definitive “no” isn’t even necessary in the first place; the lack of a definitive “yes” is enough.
Exactly.everyone must make all decisions instantly, immediately, and irrevocably, and anything other than an absolute YES YES A THOUSAND TIMES YES is *exactly the same* as NO FUCK YOU FOR EVEN ASKING. This is the only allowable way to live.
Saying she “said no” is a pretty generous interpretation of what she said. She said “I can’t date two people at the same time! I’m not a hussy!” There’s a decently strong implied “because” in between those two statements… and being immediately followed up by her realization that she IS a hussy throws significant doubt on the claim that she couldn’t.
Like. She may not go for it in the end, but she’s definitely going to have to give it some more thought. She only BARELY had time to register that it was allowed before running off to deal with the newspaper thing, forget about really considering if she wants it.
It seems like longer than it’s actually been, I think, because they’ve been running around like chickens with their heads cut off all morning. But I think pizza with Hank (which we didn’t even see) probably took more time than all the actual strips since Joyce ran out of Joe’s room.
(Also, pretty sure if Joyce were to explain that the reason she took so long to get back to him was that she was busy having sex with Dorothy, Joe’s response would be :fistbump:.)
In-universe comic time is different from the amount of time we’ve been going through this. This has all happened in the same day and they’ve already had like four Serious Conversations about other unrelated topics that were more immediately pressing.
What he asked isn’t exactly a casual thing and could have a serious impact on the relation Joyce has. Just because he asked and she doesn’t dismiss it out of hand, doesn’t mean he’s entitled to an answer before she’s ready to give one. If Joyce would figure she needed a week or a month to figure out if she wanted it, let alone ask Dorothy, than she could take a week or a month. Only thing that would be ‘off’ to me is if she’s not actually waiting to find the emotional space to make the decision, but just keeping him on the hook for keeping in on the hook’s sake, but that’s not what is happening here.
I recall Joyce saying that Joe gave her a zero, and she liked that because it meant that he saw her as a person. I have no idea how to find that strip.
It’s connected to one my favourite Joyce quotes of all time (‘What number was I, Joe, before i hurt you’ followed by Joe fleeing), which is the only way i stood half a chance of finding it.
Yup. That was Joe at his absolute worst, horrifically misogynistic, bordering on rapey frankly. Honestly I don’t blame anyone who still can’t bring themselves to like Joe after that kind of first impression.
which is funny, cause if you ask like 70% of the readership, they’ll all tell you that Willis is a terrible writer who just throws random shit together.
It’s all laid on a bit thick, isn’t it? I guess I’m happy for people who enjoy this relationship, but every time the strip focuses on them I just feel a whole lot of nothing. Something about them hooking up removed all the fun from the dynamic for me. I’d much rather get to see more of the Becky/Dina drama that’s being teased.
Yeah kudos to anyone who gets something out of these two but it is just doing nothing for me. Oh well. I know I’m gonna be annoying as hell when Billie and Ruth get back together so I can’t be too harsh on anyone else.
The good thing about this strip in particular is that it leads directly to a slipshine so we won’t have to put up with joyce and dorothy for a while ’cause they’ll be busy behind the paywall.
No reason to be harsh on the fans of something, honestly, unless they were being harsh on the haters and then it’s understandable.
Man, Danny and Sal. Now THAT’S a relationship that has some fun to it without being excessively twee. Becky and Dina, too — let’s cut away from these dweebs and watch the *interesting* lesbians sort out this latest set of issues and build something stronger out of it (or not, I suppose, but I do like Becky and Dina as a couple).
Yeah, it’s weird because I was definitely rooting for them, probably more than Joe/Joyce, but actually pulling the trigger did nothing for me. Hell, the cheating stuff was the most interesting part in a way that made it feel like they’d have been utterly boring without it.
It feels a bit like Willis really wants us to root for this ship.
These girls who have had a lot of cute interactions, have been through together thick and thin, then get a confession forged in fire and steel. And to really try to sell us on it we get a load of saccharine moments, Jocelyne rooting for them, Joe being ‘okay’ with it to smooth a bit of it over.
It just doesn’t pass the mustard for me, unfortunately. The backdrop on which the ship was launched kills a lot of the ‘aww’ for me. The setup feels rushed, the protest storyline is unfortunate, and it’s like another reset on Walky’s development.
You’ve put into words what I couldn’t. I feel like I’m supposed to just accept this ship because it’s happening and regardless of how it occurred or what characters it affects none of that matters because this is going to happen so deal with it or read something else
It is, in fact, a bad thing. This ship gets more boring the more screen time it has in a vacuum that ignores the interactions these two have with the entire rest of the cast.
Buddy that’s just how media works? Like if you want to be the person whose feelings alter and decide the narrative, you have to actually go and write something. Alternatively, you can read something more to your taste.
Or sit here and be upset about the narrative not changing to suit you specifically, but that option seems silly to me!
Frankly, I can almost certainly say I’d like the ship significantly more if they’d actually go forth and deal with the ongoing swirl of drama that COULD be happening around it. But all of this disconnected stevia-sweet horny, over and over and over again, is just leaving a bad taste with no calories.
“I don’t like an aspect of this thing” and “I am capable of doing it better/want to do it better” are not two concepts that automatically go together, my dude.
That’s a fundamentally ridiculous way to approach media, man, especially since I expressed a personal preference, not a universal judgement.
Granted, this wouldn’t even make sense even if you’d posted it on the one thing I say like it’s a reasonably objective thing, which is “the pacing on this seems worse than it has been.” — do you seriously think all art critics are (or should be) somehow as good or better artists than the things they criticize?
Sometimes a pairing being repeatedly written as “saccharine” is not an author trying to “sell” you anything, but just them authentically telling the story they want to tell.
It’s a crummy feeling to not be on the same page as an author about an aspect of a story that’s important to you. “I feel like the author wants me to root for something and I’m fully disengaged” can be frustrating.
I just… hm. I dislike seeing art talked about like it’s a product. The rampant rise of “content creator” instead of “artist”, of being “content consumers” (and therefore customers) instead of an audience.
Art is inherently political, sure, but not every piece of media is actively trying to persuade you to agree with the artist’s message? So often the point is just to get you thinking, and there are plenty of thoughts and feelings an artist might be trying to provoke.
I dislike seeing conversations about art reduced to just “I bought in, therefore it was a success” and “I didn’t buy in, therefore it was a failure”. Stories aren’t always trying to do that, and not liking what’s happening in a story isn’t always an author messing up. Sometimes it’s just an author telling a story you don’t personally like.
Things I’m NOT saying, emphatically:
— “Anyone who doesn’t like this should go away.” No, that is a silly thing to think, much less say. I think we all reach points individually where we might be happier disengaging with a story, or at least taking a break, but that’s our individual choice to make, and “stop reading then” is an obnoxious, unproductive response to criticism.
— “People who aren’t enjoying this storyline are reading it wrong.” No. It is a genuinely completely valid emotional response to a story. Sometimes it’s even what an artist is going for, though I doubt it’s Willis’s specific aim.
………side note? “it’s Willis personal fetish to put them together” is kind of a wild thing to say about a stranger, especially where they can see it, and in the context of a queer pairing, feels especially ooky.
Willis likes to point out the strip is plotted a year in advance, unfortunately.
Thankfully, the archives allow me to start back from Day 1 of ‘Shortpacked!’ when it was still a comedy strip, and not an exercise in punishing the readers.
Also Mike was still live. And your Mom was happier – for a nickel.
It’s nice to sigh, go “…okay…”, then be able to scroll down a little to read someone else also sighing so I can feel like I have company before closing the tab.
^^^^^^^ I don’t have the energy for a coherent hashing out of why this ship (and this strip in particular) just feel so hollow, so it’s really cathartic/comforting to see takes from a lot of people who do.
And double “Oh brother” for the slew of “If you don’t ship these two or if care about any of the other characters they’re emotionally entangled with, you basically just hate lesbians” commentary around the thread today.|
Meanwhile, they keep getting less interesting every time this kind of shit happens — I am downgrading them further to “LaCroix-brand Plain Sparkling Water, that has been left out too long and is now flat”.
There *is* and has been plenty of misogyny and lesbiphobia around the dislike of these two characters together (some of the deleted comments early on were eye-scorching and I actually took breaks for a day here and there after reading them) so a lot of those accusations/questions/concerns are coming from a valid place. Or are a result of dogwhistles in certain comments, or the way Joe is being centered in a coming out narrative, etcetc.
There are definitely plenty of reasons not to like these two together that have nothing to do with any of that, but there are lots that absolutely do. And people who constantly have to be on guard can be forgiven for jumping at threat-shaped shadows sometimes, imo.
I feel like I can both “understand” and “be deeply frustrated by” the folks who are jumping at shadows in such a way that a lot of random “legit ordinary haters” are getting caught in the splash, y’know? I’m not going downthread to yell at ’em directly, I’m just being a bit grumpy up here in the hater containment thread.
One thing you said I want to dig deeper into, that’s really emblematic of the perspective-based nature of it all — “the way Joe is being centered in a coming out narrative”. That WOULD be weird, if this were perceived primarily as a “coming-out” narrative, but I don’t think it’s invalid (especially given Word of Willis) to perceive it primarily as a “cheating” narrative, in which case centering Joe/Walky as much as Joyce/Dorothy is kinda the point.
Realistically, it’s obviously both, and just as realistically even if Willis really intended to write a “cheating” narrative that’s not where the camera focus is, but just as realistically it’s kinda valid to wish it was, IMHO.
In addition to the question of whether it’s a “cheating” narrative or a “coming-out” narrative or both, and how we see that affects how we perceive what’s happening here, it’s pretty clear that at least some of the focus on Joe is because of actual dangling plot lines putting it there.
Obviously the initial start with cheating led to a need to put some focus on the boys, but even when Joyce did talk to Joe that left the unresolved poly offer on the table. We may differ on what Joyce thinks of that idea, but it’s still leaving Joe as part of this plot rather than a nice clean break.
Beyond that or at least as part of that, not all, but much of the alleged centering on Joe isn’t really focused on Joe himself, but it’s being taken that way by some. It seems to me that a lot of commenters are saying something like “If Joyce is still considering the poly idea and thus doesn’t consider herself fully broken up with Joe, she should talk to Dorothy about that before having sex, because that might affect what Dorothy wants”, which is somehow being read by others as saying that Joe has veto power or that she needs to finish the poly discussion with Joe before she is free to have sex with Dorothy. There’s confusion there that I think is giving some the perception that Joe is being centered in the discussion far more than he is.
Which is also all related to my own structural/pacing complaint that Doyce seems to be getting a lot more “cute together, no plot/drama happening” strips than other relationships have, at least all at once. Which can be maddening to me, knowing there are at least 6 potentially interesting stories that are happening outside the frame or got short-shrift to go back to this:
– the protest (and the newspaper, and Raidah/Asma’s respective reactions)
– Jennifer and Alice
– Dina and Becky
– Jocelyne (and her family relationships)
– Joe
– Walky
The comic’s focus or the audience’s? And wrt Joyce and/or Dorothy’s coming out story, or in general? (Not trying to make any sort of point with this comment.)
Like, yes, it currently makes sense for people to be bringing him up, but he has been a constant topic of conversation. People were worrying about his feelings and speculating about how Dorothy hypothetically having feelings for Joyce wasn’t fair to Joe years ago.
People care a lot about Joe. But his centering in the comments has not always made obvious narrative sense.
Important context needed is that Joe isnt some incidental character Joyce happened to be dating at the time. Joyce and Joe’s relationship has been built up slowly over a course of years. Hell even before the time skip.
I often make the comparison to Becky and Dina cuz I feel like people would not shut up about Dina if Becky broke up with her for any reason. Because they’re invested in them together. Ruth comes up an awful lot during Jennifer strips despite them having been broken up for over 5 years now.
It is a bit unfair to act like bringing up Joe within 3 months of his ship being suddenly uprooted is some out of left field moment as if he was a nothing filler character. I had stopped reading the comic for years after the time skip and Joyce and Joe’s legitimately pulled me back in and got me reading daily.
I wasn’t saying any of that, and it’s not “Joe being brought up within three months”, it’s “Joe being brought up consistently in the comments of strips where he’s not present for the entirety of the last like five months”.
Again: people care a lot about Joe! They also care a lot about Joe/Joyce as a ship. Totally understandable!
I still think it was a little weird how often he wasn’t just being brought up in the comments of strips that weren’t about him, but also how often readers who just had like one-sentence comments like “I ship Joyce/Dorothy” got pounced on and accused of ignoring Joe’s feelings.
Again, this was happening LONG before Joyce and Dorothy actually kissed. It was happening long before it seemed like there was any realistic chance of Joyce and Dorothy actually liking each other. It happened in response to comments that in no way indicated “I hope Joe and Joyce break up and that Joe’s feelings get hurt”. Totally neutral comments that just happened to not mention Joe’s name were being read as hatred of Joe and/or endorsement of cheating, even before cheating was in any way on the table.
People just really like Joe, and they really like Joe/Joyce.
It’s totally understandable to bring Joe up right now. I’m just saying, the amount that he has been brought up HAS been disproportionate. Especially compared with Walky, who’s been more of a forgotten footnote in these conversations.
Yes, Walky gets brought up occasionally, but given that most of what happened to Joe was also happening to him, the relative dearth of comments about him do serve to further underline that it’s not just “Joe is relevant”. It’s “Joe is beloved and people were/are really invested in his relationship with Joyce, which is magnifying how often he gets brought up.”
And yes, that magnification has been a bit disproportionate.
I think we have room for nuance here? We can acknowledge both that there’s a dangling thread here with Joe that makes him relevant even in his absence AND that it’s still been a pretty high percentage of ‘comments about Joe’ over the course of Dorothy coming to terms with her sexuality (still a WIP, imho) and Joyce realizing the extent of her feelings for Dorothy and now the two of them preparing to have sex for the first time.
(inb4 various comments about dryers)
Like, both those things are true. It’s silly of people to act like Joe is completely irrelevant, but it’s not like there’s nothing to the observation that Joe’s gotten a lot of comment air time during these storylines.
(And yes, some of that is Willis’s framing. Joe was made more relevant to Dorothy’s self-realization because he was the one who finally poked her about it in a way she couldn’t just brush off without thinking about, and of course he was/is(?) also dating the girl she had feelings for. Even so, the focus on him has been pretty intense.)
I stopped bringing up Walky after his heart to heart with jennifer cuz it at least gave off a semblance of closure. And admittedly cuz Dorothy and walkys two day sex filled relationship seemed flimsy at best. Though if I am bringing up Walky I will get pretty annoyed by how BADLY he is treated by the cast. He got laughed at for having been cheated on and then kicked for mildly sassing Jennifer. Which is like…their dynamic. But maaaaaan. Walky tends to just let shit go and I kinda wish he would like…get really mad or like really sad or something. Like in a visible way. Is that weird? I don’t think people realize he’s a person.
I still think it was a little weird how often he wasn’t just being brought up in the comments of strips that weren’t about him, but also how often readers who just had like one-sentence comments like “I ship Joyce/Dorothy” got pounced on and accused of ignoring Joe’s feelings.
So I totally get why people would be a hit jumpy. Sure “I like Joyce and Dorothy” seems innocuous but it also does kinda oppose Joyce and Joe since Dorothy hates Joe and none of the ceemed open to poly at the time.
As an example. I like dina and Joe. I actually think they have shocking amounts of chemistry. I would not he surprised if people got upset at me saying I think they make a nice couple. Cuz Joe getting with Dina would theoretically mean dina isn’t with Becky and people reeaaally like those two. So I dunno. It’s not too surprising.
@Yotomoe: if someone said that directly in response to someone else talking about how much they love Dina/Becky, sure. Even if they said it in response to a cute Dina/Becky strip, especially one where Joe isn’t even present, that would feel like at least inviting responses.
When it’s just a random top-level saying “I ship something that isn’t canon”, especially since I’m talking here about comments from years ago when no one seriously thought it ever would be canon, then jumping right to accusing that person of not caring about Joe’s feelings seems needlessly hostile.
(I didn’t really have a response to the Walky stuff. I think he deserves more consideration than he’s gotten! I think his jokey facade covers (poorly) for deep insecurity and I think his friend group is mostly made up of his girlfriends’ friends, and that sucks.
But I didn’t say “no one at all cares about Walky”, you know? I said he was often a forgotten footnote in conversations about how Dorothy/Joyce was a bad thing to even ship in your own head because of how much it would hurt Joe, and I think that’s just… factually true? The number of comments about Walky, for the duration of this whole thing, is just a lot smaller than the number of comments about Joe.)
There’s nothing queerphobic about shipping Dina with Joe.
Especially because she’s bi, but even if she was a lesbian, it would still be morally neutral to think she had great chemistry with a boy.
Something that I feel like some parts of fandom have definitely forgotten is that “I ship it” isn’t the same thing as saying “it should definitely happen in canon”. It’s not the same thing as saying “I think this ship is the best ship”, it’s not the same thing as saying “I think this ship would be emotionally healthy”, it’s not the same thing as saying “I think this ship should be endgame”.
“I ship Dina/Joe” does not in any way imply “I hope Dina and Becky break up,” and it DEFINITELY doesn’t imply “I hope Dina breaks Becky’s heart and leaves her a husk of a human being,” which is definitely how people have been treating “I ship Joyce/Dorothy” since the moment Joe expressed feelings for Joyce.
I cant say for sure I was privy to how often Joe got brought up outta context. I stopped reading for quite a whole and abstained from commenting even longer. So I admit it may be a worse issue than I’ve seen.
I will say another element, personally, is how often it is framed as lesbians vs. A man. As if this whole story wasn’t framed as a cheating story. I keep seeing the “a man” comment pop up and it’s really disheartening. Cuz it’s as if they’re saying he doesn’t matter “because” he’s a man. I’m sure that’s not always intended but thats how it often comes across. Which like…i get why sapphic love can seem more loving and legitbecause it pushes against the idea of heteronormativity in a society hostile towards it. I’m sure it’s not my place as cis man to ever be offended but man, I don’t like feeling like my feelings are hampered by my gender. As if it would be wrong for Joe or Walky to get angry. Or cry. Instead of amicably nodding and accepting it. And having any concern for them be framed as inherently straight vs. Gay and not “cheaters and cheatees” But man the story just…blew past these guys so fast as if their feelings DON’T matter. Like then being upset is an unimportant circumstance to the greatest love story ever told. I don’t know why this is a cheating story if nobody cares about the cheating. Or the people cheated on. It’s like watching a man have a heart attack and then watching people casually sidestep his body with no concern. I’m just staring at the screen going “somebody do something.” And it just feels like the comments and story just don’t really wanna deal with them? I’ll be honest. It was probably a joke but willis’ wheel of future events where Joe was just in a small little pie of “remembering he exists” and at that point I realized that this couple that reinvigorated my interest in this comic was an afterthought. The butt of the joke. And I’m a stupid idiot for having grown attached to it.
I agree with your other posts. Also I’m sorry the comment sections are riling you up. I understand if you need a break. Though I will say I always look forward to your input. You seem to at least be one of the more level headed commenters.
I feel better today. Gonna keep my participation to a minimum tho bc I still don’t think I’m in the headspace I wanna be for this comment section — I wanna be part of what makes comments worth reading, not part of what makes it hostile and toxic around here, you know? (Thank you for your last paragraph. I really do try, even if I mess up sometimes. ❤️)
1. First, thank you for saying this! I genuinely think so many conversations would be better here if more folks were willing to say, “oh I haven’t see that happening but I might have missed something.” It’s easy to feel like you’re seeing everything and like other people must be just wildly mischaracterizing something you did see, or even something you yourself said. (And I’m guilty of that too!)
2. I will say another element, personally, is how often it is framed as lesbians vs. A man. As if this whole story wasn’t framed as a cheating story. I keep seeing the “a man” comment pop up and it’s really disheartening. Cuz it’s as if they’re saying he doesn’t matter “because” he’s a man.
Honestly, I think part of the problem is that both of these things are true at once.
Joe is “a man”. He’s cis and straight and most commenters just think of him as white, rather than Jewish, so he basically seems like a big muscular manifestation of The Man. And he used to be a misogynistic creep, which a minority of readers haven’t forgiven him for, so in some senses it’s very easy to think of him as “just a man” who’s therefore an acceptable sacrifice on the altar of a queer ship.
Joe is also definitely someone who’s been wronged here! Who has feelings that most of us care about. Who’s also BEEN a genuinely important figure throughout this whole arc, from before be knocked on Dorothy’s door.
So I get where people are coming from. On both sides. That it IS both “straight vs gay” AND “cheaters versus cheatees”. That some people ARE totally indifferent to the cheating solely because it’s two girls, that some people ARE much more upset by the cheating because it’s two girls — that most of us fall somewhere in-between, but we’re human beings and more likely to be forgiving of a ship doing bad things if we like that ship or those characters a lot, and more likely to be unforgiving if we were already annoyed by those characters or really didn’t like that ship as a concept. It’s all true and it’s all tangled together and people are having big feelings about it. Especially with the State of the World.
3. I’m sure it’s not my place as cis man to ever be offended but man, I don’t like feeling like my feelings are hampered by my gender. As if it would be wrong for Joe or Walky to get angry. Or cry. Instead of amicably nodding and accepting it.
I just wanna say: what you’re feeling isn’t just, like, in your head, or you being a bad ally.
There IS a genuinely strain of anti-masculinity in some parts of the queer community, just as there’s a genuine strain of anti-femininity in other parts. There are misogynistic gay men who think it’s fine and harmless because they’re gay, and they’re not just misogynistic about women; this is the “no femmes on my Grindr profile” segment of the community, the “ugh I hate it when gay men act TOO gay, why can’t they be macho like me” segment.
Meanwhile, the anti-masculinity thread looks like: spaces that claim to welcome “women and nonbinary people”, but by “nonbinary people” they mean “people I can comfortably categorize as woman-lite”. People they think they can clock immediately as amab, and anyone with a more masculine-leaning gender presentation, are “out”. Which is an environment that sucks for transmasc people, for anyone who is or looks amab, even for cis butches who are “””too””” masculine. It’s also an environment that forces people to disclose the specifics of their assigned-at-birth gender and their transition goals. It’s going to be harsh as hell on trans women who are too early in their transition, and it doesn’t understand butch trans women or genderfluid people at all.
Also, the idea you’re echoing, that sapphic love can seem more loving and legit — I think for some lesbians it’s absolutely true that a good relationship with a woman can heal a lot of old wounds, but this pervasive idea that woman = victim and man = predator is incredibly toxic for everyone. Even the most high femme cis lesbian in the world is harmed by this mentality. There is truly no better environment for a predator than one where everyone’s agrees they can’t possibly be a predator by virtue of their immutable characteristics. Sufficiently Femme abusers absolutely flourish in these environments.
All of this is to say nothing of the racialized dynamics. A lot of our idea of what a high femme woman even is is based in white supremacist standards. IIRC, most of the professional athletes who have been targeted by transphobic attacks like demands to test their testosterone levels have actually been cis women of color, especially Black cis women.
I’m sure I’m not really saying anything you don’t already know, but I’ve seen you kind of apologizing for feeling targeted by “all men are awful” rhetoric and… sure, sometimes that’s coming from a place of legitimate trauma, but also: you’re not horrible for being hurt by it. You’re not the only one being hurt by it.
Even someone who doesn’t care at all about the feelings of white cis men needs to stop for a moment and realize that a world where people are only welcome if they’re either a cis woman or a trans person is a world that’s going to be just as gender-policing and creepy about what’s in all of our pants as any TERF.
(I’m not actually saying here that it’s okay to not care about the feelings of cis men as a group. I’m just saying that even if you’re that person, this line of thinking still deals a lot of “friendly fire” damage to people you theoretically care about.)
4. I’ll be honest. It was probably a joke but willis’ wheel of future events where Joe was just in a small little pie of “remembering he exists” and at that point I realized that this couple that reinvigorated my interest in this comic was an afterthought. The butt of the joke. And I’m a stupid idiot for having grown attached to it.
This was me about shipping Joyce and Dorothy for soooooo long and I am so incredibly sorry you’re feeling that way.
You’re not a stupid idiot. Even if it were somehow the worst pairing in the world, you still wouldn’t be stipid for getting attached to it, but it is decidedly NOT that. If this is really the end of that pairing, it’s a shame because they were often really cute together, and their dynamic (whether romantic or not) has been a huge part of the comic for a long time.
And… again thank you for your kind words. You’re definitely one of the best parts of the comment section, as well as being a very talented artist.
Just responding that I read your post and I’m glad you’re feeling better. Thanks for taking the time and I don’t really have much to add other than “it is what it is”
@Li, this is an old(er) comment, so sorry for bringing this thread back up, but as a lesbian, I have to stop you there with the dina comment. It is not morally neutral, and would absolutely be lesbophobic to say “I want this canonically lesbian character to end up with a man”.
It’s impossible to divorce a statement like that from context and pretend that it’s equivalent to saying you want, say, a straight girl to end up with another girl. In an ideal world, there wouldn’t be a difference, but we don’t live in an ideal world, we live in a world where misogyny, homophobia and lesbophobia are powerful societal forces. Lesbians being with other women is a challenge to the status quo, and specifically to patriarchal ownership of women.
Saying that you want a lesbian to be with a man is not morally neutral, it is a reinforcement (whether it’s meant to be or not) of these misogynistic, homophobic, and lesbophobic ideals – the idea that we can be “fixed” or that we “just need to find the right man.” It’s violent rhetoric.
I want to say that by no means do I mean to attack you here, I don’t think you meant this in that way, and I know this might seem like a lot over a hypothetical, but even as a hypothetical, this kind of thing can be harmful
@OsteraToralen: first of all, Dina is not a lesbian. She is canonically gray-ace and bi (both in this universe where she’s stated that she’s “not sure gender is a factor” for her, and in the Walkyverse, where she was only ever shown to be attracted to Walky). So. If we are going to do some sort of “my specific type of queerness gives me more expertise here than yours,” I am both bi/pan and gray-ace. And I’ve only ever dated or wanted to date women, if that for some reason makes any difference to you.
Second of all “I ship this” is NOT “I want these two characters to find love together [in canon],” which was part of my whole point. Elsewhere, I criticized someone for grossly asserting that it would be “perfect” if Becky seduced Joe and Walky, because… yeah, that is a gross thing to say, especially because they were positing it as some sort of justice for Becky / comeuppance for Joyce and Dorothy.
But the idea that JUST shipping something, just thinking two characters have good chemistry together, is inherently “violent rhetoric” is exactly what I was pushing back on, and I am going to continue pushing back on it. I respect that you disagree. I’m going to keep arguing that just shipping something, which again doesn’t mean you even hope those two characters will actually ever date each other canonically, is not inherently bad and does not automatically make someone a bad person.
I’m a dyke and a tranny so I’m certainly sympathetic to people feeling they need to be on constant alert for bias and prejudice, both implicit and explicit. It’s definitely true that especially early on there was a significant amount of homophobia directed at these two, and as a gay woman I know how that stings.
With that said, I have a lot less sympathy for people who get aggro towards people for disliking DoJo for no actual reason, or for people who think there should be no narrative consequences for the cheating (a lot of the comments made toward Sarah when she called them out frankly border on racist and engaging in negative stereotypes of Black people being especially homophobic).
At this point I’m just ready for this storyline to be over so the comment section can find something new to be angry and stupid over.
At this point I’m just ready for this storyline to be over so the comment section can find something new to be angry and stupid over.
Me too. Which sucks, because I’ve wanted these two to get together for more than a decade, but it is definitely approaching “okay I’m going to stop reading for a while because I can’t make myself not read the comments and the comments are miserable to read”.
Yeah, I have noticed lately that my actual ability to enjoy the strip has been effectively neutered by the constant rote negativity towards it in the comments, which sucks, because it was something I used to enjoy engaging with, and it’s hard not to habitually want to see what other readers are talking about. Even like a year ago, it wasn’t like this.
I’ve tried to just not pay attention to it, but that requires deliberately avoiding something that was part of the existing cycle of checking the strip every day or night. IDK I just miss the strip being fun and the readers enjoying it. I think that if I wasn’t digesting everybody else’s rage, I’d have much exceedingly bad to say about it, let alone be dripping with abject seething hatred of fictional teenagers who have more justifiable excuses for being so unworldly, than most of us in here who are fanatically criticizing them.
Something about Raidah makes half the comment section turn their brains off and bring out the pitchforks no matter what she’s actually saying or doing in a given strip.
Probably about half “racism” and half “introduced in a way that set her as opposed to Sarah, who people seem to actually like”. Lotta folks have a hard time seeing her as a nuanced character when she’s been consistently portrayed as a social climber and pissy at Sarah for not-really-valid reasons.
Man, it’s weird that I forgot about that because now that you reminded me it happened I remember that’s when I really started disliking Raidah rather than just thinking she was kind of a dumbass.
hot take: i don’t think you should be able to say those slurs on this website. if bongo and conga get censored, i don’t think homophobic and transphobic slurs should be allowed, either. as a gay transgender woman myself, i don’t like seeing *anyone* use those words for people like me in public like this. I think the site should have better moderation.
Reclaiming slurs is and has always been a thing, and oh wow is “no one should be able to say LGBTQIA+ slurs on this website” a monkey’s paw wish.
Gay isn’t just happy and that’s not how it was being used when they started calling us that, it meant promiscuous. Slutty. Dirty.
Oh yeah and then there was that whole movement in the 2000s complete with promos featuring Hillary Duff begging teenagers to stop using “gay” as a synonym for “bad and shitty and stupid”.
All of our words have been slurs, or pathologies, or both, because homophobic transphobic biphobic etc society considers our identities to be inherently bad.
You do not want this rule to be made universal. Work through your trauma response to other people’s identity words instead of trying to make your feelings law.
(inb4 some people reclaim bongo — yeah okay but until we have communities of women literally identifying as bongos and congos, that’s not REMOTELY the same thing)
I agree! I don’t know why “other queer people self-ID with words I don’t like” is even something you have room to be upset about with the state of the world right now, and I am baffled that anyone would call for more censorship of our identities in this climate, regardless of their personal feelings on a word.
as gently as possible, li, a trans woman just said “hey don’t say that here, that language is bigoted and not appropriate for this setting where you don’t know everyone’s comfort with that sort of thing” and you got mad at her. why do you think that is.
Because you said it to another trans woman who was proudly using those words as her identity, Megan, that’s why.
How is “I think the words I’m not comfortable with should be censored” not obviously a pit with no bottom when we are talking about the queer community.
I could use those words to self-ID, too. I don’t. I’m not fond of them.
I am very attached to queer, though, and I know how some people feel about that.
And I have legit trauma around the word “lesbian” because it’s what happened to be snarled at me while I was growing up, but I know better than to say “hey I don’t think anyone should be allowed to cal themselves a lesbian in public because it was hurled at me when I was a kid.”
I don’t really expect anyone to take me at my word on this, it probably looks like just ducking out of an argument in cowardice. That’s okay. But this is genuinely just me having a “I’m not being the person I want to be” moment.
The suggestion to censor slurs obviously got to me in a real bad way, but Megan is just a random person. She doesn’t even have the power to actually moderate this comment section. She’s not who I’m angry at, she’s not why I’m afraid and miserable. I wanted to defend Dot, but if I were Dot, I wouldn’t want a defense of this temperature, heh.
I’m so mad about crab buckets that I’m doing my own version of it, and it’s no more productive.
So yeah. Stepping back. Trying to be the person Mr. Rogers knew I could be. All of that.
how am i supposed to have a good one after what you decided to say to me?
i never told anyone to never say whatever words they personally want, i said not to do it *HERE, in public, where other people who have trauma and bigotry-related anxieties have to see them.* That is an exceedingly reasonable thing to request and, again, because its all ANY of you are capable of towards me, it was met with a vitriolic screed about how i’m not a real ally towards my own community.
have even a single one of you thought through your words ONCE before sending them to people??? maybe i’d be less “aggro” if you bigoted bastards didn’t pull this shit every time. i should not have to be made suicidal over a fucking webcomic about gay teens.
As gently as possible, Megan, you just said “i don’t like seeing *anyone* use those words for people like me in public like this.”
YOU may consider them to be “not appropriate for this setting”, but as you pointed out, this is a PUBLIC space on the internet where YOU “don’t know everyone’s comfort with that sort of thing”. Some people *are* comfortable using them. Some people *strongly* identify with them and actively seek to label themselves as such.
If these are words that cause YOU distress and discomfort to the point that you feel both comfortable and ‘in the right’ policing the speech of another gay trans woman, then setting up a browser plugin to filter/swap them out is something YOU can/should consider doing.
Implying that anyone who won’t cater to YOUR comfort is transphobic is just petty.
Thanks, SunflowerBanjo, for putting this much better than I actually did. I got really upset and lashed out, when all I should have said, repeatedly, was:
“No, you didn’t just say you were uncomfortable with these words, you said no one should be allowed to say them in public and called for their moderation.”
Megan, I’ve defended you before because I do think you catch a lot of flak that is often disproportionate to what you’ve said. S’not a defense of me being a lot harsher in my replies here than I meant to, it’s just a fact.
I’m sorry you felt so awful yesterday and I hope you feel better today, regardless of how you feel about me.
Li’s correct, it’s definitely a monkey’s paw. When the Cryptic Studios games had their own forums, the Star Trek Online forum would autocensor “naughty” words to “TRIBBLE”, in all caps. Slang in other English-speaking countries being what it is, the word “doorknob” would be censored, because the word “knob” is in it. We also couldn’t discuss the name of the author of Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?, which (me being me) led to the commissioning of the science vessel USS Philip K. TRIBBLE.
You’re well within your rights, Megan, to feel uncomfortable with those words being used. I am also within those rights to reclaim them and use them for myself.
You do not get to police the language I use to describe myself or the slurs I get to reclaim. I recognize that those words make you uncomfortable. I would never use them to describe you because of that. But as you say this is a public space – and in public space, in queer community, there are going to be people who use reclaimed slurs to describe themselves. Thats simply a fact and if you want to hang out around other gay people it is something you are going to have to get used to. I am not saying this with any malice or vitriol. I acknowledge your discomfort. But I am not going to censor myself because of it.
Now with all of that said I do think others in this thread have come at you much hotter than they needed to on this subject and I apologize for that on their behalf as another trans woman. I understand feeling like you’re being belittled or not taken seriously or talked down to because you’re a trans woman, and how frustrating that is. I don’t blame you for feeling like you need to respond in kind just to be taken seriously. I think your feelings are completely valid and you should be treated respectfully for expressing them, even if I firmly disagree. I recognize that, to say the least, we are not friends, but I hope that the rest of your day is easier for you.
Counter-counterpoint: Willis is going to have to do a lot more Slipshines to hire enough staff to read, moderate and censor/replace slurs in real time on the forums.
Just as a piece of information, bongo at least is censored on this site not on general principles, but because it was massively overused in the comments way back – in strips about Roz, I believe.
While that doesn’t likely change anyone’s opinions about the words, I think it does change the idea that “if bongo and conga get censored …”
Dot has the right to refer to herself as she likes, and you equally have the right to refer to yourself as you wish. If someone goes calling other people slurs and being an asshole, then yes, that shit’s getting moderated. Dot clearly isn’t a bigot. You can think her post was cringe if you want, but as others have pointed out, reclaiming words has long been part of queer culture. Case in point. I know some folks from older generations dislike being called “queer,” if they prefer I not use that word to refer to them personally, I won’t. EZ.
Suggestion: use a word replacer extension! I, too, dont like the word, but it has a lot to do with trauma. I use a replacer so that it allows people to say their words but it doesn’t affect me.
love how dorothy is not just on the bottom but actively posed such that joyce can pin her down immedietly. i’m so fuckin jazzed for these two! #doa theocracy!
Doa theocracy? Is Dorothy about to nailed into the bed for our sins? Shall she rise again on the third hour having triumphed over little death? What the heck is going on here?
She literally only wanted to be president, because she grew up in a household where her central authority figures were genuinely supportive and good for her, and had her best interests at heart, for her whole life; her little girl dream is just “I wanna grow up and be in charge so I can be good at being in charge, and make Bad Things Not Happen.”
It may be insanely naive, the same way that wanting to be a Fire Truck when one grew up would be naive; but, that’s how being a literal child, works. Anyway, tl;dr, Dorothy is a Christ-like figure in some ways, and her and Joyce coming to the same moral and ethical conclusions from opposite theological perspectives, is like, the enduring purpose of both of their characters in the narrative?
Despite all the drama as these two have caused in the past few weeks; this is sweet, and I am happy to see them so in love. _> who else is looking forward to the Slipshine?
From what I’ve gleaned, the Slipshine comics are basically a commission of a kind? They’re a NSFW comic thing, they reach out to Willis and go “hey we’ll hire you to do a sexy comic”, Willis has the creative control as far as art and who the characters are, Willis tells his readers “sexy comic, go here to buy it” and Slipshine handles the distribution and keeps a cut of the profits. The Other Patreon, meanwhile, is just a NSFW patreon. It doesn’t have to be specifically commissioned by a third party, it’s basically up to what Willis and/or their patrons may desire, and he can kinda do whatever he wants. I think that’s why he cannot post the Slipshine stuff onto his Other patreon for example, because that’s technically Slipshine’s. I could be wrong but from what I’ve read I think that’s basically the gist.
Honestly I just want reassurance that they’re not about to break up due to sexual incompatibility because a not so small part of me still doesn’t really believe I’m finally seeing this particular dynamic be paid off, instead of just a joke at my expense for liking the chemistry of the pair in question.
Not that the slipshine wouldn’t be cute ❤️ but I’m otherwise happy to just see these two continue dating.
As a person who’s not liked this pairing and moreso not liked how it’s went down at all, if if ended like that I would immediately 180 and love everything that led up to this long term audience troll in the new context. But that’s not Willis’ style so I’m not holding out for that one.
Ugh. Look, I’m the opposite of a Doyce-as-written fan, but if this pairing splits about ANYTHING short of basically full-scale Armageddon (hyperbole) after well over a decade of foreshadowing and buildup, it’d basically turn Willis into their OWN Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson sequel, and literally no one wants that.
They’ll split up over Joyce wanting to take up Joe’s poly suggestion and Willis will need to go into protective custody to escape the wrath of the commentariat.
Heh, thanks. Folks have expressed this opinion (“wouldn’t it be a great twist”) a LOT, and I’ve almost always just scrolled past, but having it said directly to me, in response to me talking about how I’m still kind of anxious about a rug-pull that turns this whole thing into one long joke at my expense…
It’s like “okay now this feels a little personal”, fff.
I certainly hope we get a Slipshine, but as someone pointed out on Patreon, it might be a bit of tricky one to do, what with balancing the plot significance of Joyrothy’s first time, their mutual inexperience having sex with women, and making it good porn. Also, given recent events in his personal life, Willis may not be in much of a headspace for making porn.
Those are some good points; particularly the last one. If we don’t get one I’ll be disappointed, but completely understandable why we might not get one.
Yeah – Dorothy and Joyce have been obvious for ages and I do in fact love to see it, but holy shit Billie and Ruth were fire. Nearly literally, I suspect, on more than one occasion. But fire is fire, and I do miss it.
Uh, maybe for you it does, but that ain’t my style or the style of anyone I’ve ever known in my personal life who wasn’t a complete douchebag. Maybe you could elaborate on this sentiment?
Yeah that sounds like either I’m misunderstanding what you mean or you’re having a very different experience of Love than any definition or experience I’ve ever known.
I would assume that with love, particularly for a person, their feelings are the ones someone who is in love would prioritize. Like, say I have a girlfriend. I’m gonna prioritize her feelings, her desires, her wants, because I’m a loving partner. My lady wants chocolates, I’m getting her chocolates.
I’m sure someone could argue that philosophically, that is still selfish because I ‘get’ something out of doing something for someone I love but I feel like that’s just gonna regurgitate the same circular arguments that were had when people were talking about Rachel’s take of “doing good things is selfish because you get something out of it”. There’s a certain point where people need to remember what words mean. An example of selfishness is if I go up to a trick or treat bowl and shove all the candy in the bowl so no one else can have some. It wouldn’t be an example of selfishness if I decide to put out a trick or treat bowl for trick or treaters to have candy at their leisure just because the act of doing something for others gives me a bit of dopamine.
Yeah, really. I once tried to come up with an overarching definition of love that would encompass romantic love, familial, platonic, etc. What I came up with is love is when you prioritize someone else’s needs and desires above your own. Kind of the opposite of selfish, really.
But that version is wide open to abuse, if they’re not really returning the same priorities (Somewhat different in cases like young children, where they’re dependent on you.)
The best definition along similar lines I’ve seen is “When their happiness is essential to your own.”
In one of his more rambling novels, Heinlein had several characters discussing over the course of it what “love” was. (It was of vital importance to one of the characters, a self-aware computer; she needed to know if what she felt toward the director of the Howard Institute was love.) The final conclusion reached, and one I believe to be valid, was, “Love is that state in which the happiness of another is necessary to your own.” I suppose a strict Randian might call that “selfish”, but that’s probably the least of the things I’d argue with a strict Randian about…
It’s still your feelings for said person (or people) that drive your actions, is all I mean. In prioritizing their needs and wants, you’re also prioritizing your emotional connection to that person. Their hurt becomes your hurt, their joy naturally feeds your own.
That’s uncomfortably close to the “there’s no real altruism, since anyone doing good is actually getting rewarded by their own desire to be virtuous and/or society’s love for the virtuous”, which frankly sounds like bunk to me.
It’s fully bunk, to be sure. If deriving any pleasure from something is all it takes to be “selfish”, the word becomes meaningless. Bad, good, neutral, the moral framework is close to irrelevant if caring deeply about others is getting shoved in there like a used napkin.
It’s definitely one of those moments where personally I look at it as “okay, that statement of belief leads to Objectivism in the general case, are you SURE that’s how you feel?”
Pleasant is not the same thing as selfish. You can enjoy, crave, and even need something without it being “selfish” to indulge in.
Selfishness is not synonymous with “for yourself”, it requires you to overlook/disadvantage/not care about others while you’re indulging in the thing you like. It connotes damage being done to other people around you or neglect for things you are responsible for as a result of indulging.
I think maybe this is just a misunderstanding of the word tbh.
Devil’s advocate I will say love can have selfish ELEMENTS.
Like I want a girlfriend cuz I wanna kiss someone or cuddle someone or have someone to talk to or stave off my own feelings of loneliness. Which could just be me wanting anotjer person to help make me feel more complete. I think the difference is that I dont haaaave a girlfriend yet. If I did I would probably want to do things with and for her. Cuz I love her. But since.i haven’t met her yet I can only really focus in what I would get out of it.
If you don’t ship something, especially if you anti-ship it, there’s nothing any author can do to change your mind.
Which is fine, totally valid, but like. It’s not a failure of the writing, either. The people who like this ship are enjoying it! The people who don’t aren’t. It’s that simple.
In a sense that’s tautological, but it’s not quite as simple as that. There are some in the comments saying they shipped them before they actually got together, but aren’t enjoying it now. It’s not really just whether people ship it or not if people are changing their minds as it plays out.
What I said was that authors cannot make people ship something when they don’t, especially when they anti-ship something.
I think if you reread that, you’ll find that it does not in any way imply that people can’t change their own minds, or that the way a ship happens can never make someone un-ship a thing they previously shipped.
But folks keep commenting as if “this is boring” and “they’re being shitty people so it’s impossible to like this” are objective facts that prove Willis needs to make sweeping changes to what they’re writing.
They’re not objective facts and at the end of the day, this isn’t our story to dictate. Willis is more receptive to and responsive to feedback than any other author I’ve ever seen, but “are we supposed to find this cute? Because it’s not” is just. Jeez. Okay, sorry you feel that way, but your opinion is not the only one.
ESPECIALLY when the reaction is so divided and intense, it definitely can’t just be the case that Willis has failed to convey exactly what they meant to convey here.
Some people in the audience not enjoying the story you’re telling isn’t proof that you’re telling that story wrong, especially when the point of contention is something as volatile and personal as a ship.
Also: let me acknowledge that Animedingo didn’t actually use the word “we” in the first sentence.
This may well be a case of the straw breaking the camel’s back, in which case I apologize for coming out so hot. I’m tired and I should definitely take a long comment if not comic break again.
“As a person who’s not liked this pairing and moreso not liked how it’s went down at all”
— you, six minutes before posting this comment
I’d say “which is the trying dot gif”, but I think your other comments make it pretty clear you don’t actually like any of the characters or ships. Fantasizing about the “perfect spiritual comeuppance” being Becky seducing Joe and Walky while acknowledging briefly that that would make Dina collateral damage but completely ignoring the creepsauce that is hoping a lesbian will have healing sex with two men is uh. Uh. Something.
“Real answer? Obviously this will never happen, but the ultimate spiritual consequence to this, punishing characters both in and out of universe, is Becky seducing Joe AND Walky out of sheer self-immolating spite. This at last gets through to and breaks Joyce (and incidentally Dina’s in pretty bad shape), Sarah isn’t talking to anybody but Joe at this point (though she tells him he’s being an idiot), and Dorothy watches in horror as its all falling apart and she can fix none of it because this time shes at the heart of the chaos.”
Far be it for my imprecise quoting to leave anyone with the impression that you didn’t say exactly these words, especially since if that comment gets enough attention it’ll definitely be reported into oblivion lol.
It really does seem like one of the bigger drivers of conflict continues to be people conflating “I do(n’t) like this ship”, “I do(n’t) like the storyline around the ship”, “I think the writing/pacing/etc could(n’t) be better in this storyline/ship”, and “I think Willis (should)/(is not obligated to) do something about it” as though those positions are always in alignment when it’s clear they’re not.
I do think that talking about wishing the story were doing something different here also brings with it some of that context, even if the commenter didn’t mean for it to. You know? We know Willis can see everything we’re saying here, so it’s not the same thing as venting on one’s own tumblr or bluesky account, or taking it to the Reddit or the Discord.
I’ll try to keep that more in mind, but obviously a lot of things have been eating me at once around these parts. All the more reason to take a break. (Which I AM doing, just… kinda making a last round of replies for a bit. 🙂 )
What collateral damage? Becky’s upset by Joyce being into girls, but not her. Walky’s sad that Dorothy broke up with him again.
Joe may wind up being sad, but currently is in limbo.
The difference is Billie and Ruth, while a selfish disaster, was actually interesting to watch because the narrative understood it was a selfish disaster. This time around it’s supposed to be something we are meant to see as great when it’s (rightly) being seen by many in the audience as a selfish inconsiderate thing. That’s why the first one worked and this one doesn’t.
What could possibly happen? Dorothy doesn’t care about anyone but herself and Sarah was the only person who could maybe bother Joyce and the plot shrugged that off like it was nothing. There’s no shoes to drop. There are no real consequences.
Never be mean to corvids. Like, for all the normal reasons you shouldn’t be mean to anything, sure. But also, they will remember and they will get you.
This is such a weird leap. Yknow what would be nice? Someone anyone telling them hey how you’ve gone about this is shitty and it sticks. Sarah wad the closest to that and we just kinda…moved on?
I care less that Joyce and Dorothy are together that was inevitable. It’s specifically how it’s happened again via cheating which was unnecessary, how it has disrupted everyone around them and they just kinda don’t care and we apparently aren’t either
Good. There shouldn’t be consequences for queer women finally getting to meaningfully explore their queerness beyond abstract hypothetical thought experiments, even if it makes the men sad.
It’s not anyone’s job to avoid making comments that trigger weirdos. People can be excited to see queer women exploring their queerness without being punished for that specifically, even if it makes a man sad. That’s actually a super reasonable take.
“It’s okay because it’s lesbians” is an unimaginative caveperson slam at people who are enjoying the queerness and not as bothered by the “moral failings” of cartoon characters. It’s silly, and no one should be worrying about their opinions beyond laughing at it when it comes up.
“It’s not anyone’s job to avoid making comments that trigger weirdos.”
I mean, it’s true that it’s not my job, but I also don’t want to be pilloried by weirdos, and that’s what the meta-game of this comment section has evolved into: “How can I have a substantive discussion about the interesting narrative about mentally-ill teenagers, without accidentally triggering anybody’s existing trauma, and ending up defending myself against accusations of bigotry or abuse?”
At some point, you could always go with “occasionally snark about how much splash damage there is around here, mostly just talk to people whose opinion you respect.”
If you want to or feel pushed to take pains to step around feelings, that’s absolutely your prerogative. I was specifically responding to someone suggesting “x comment is why y people have hilariously bad takes” cause I think it’s silly to blame the person showing love to queer couples for the people who complain about queer couples.
No, what leads to those posts is deeply held personal insecurities manifesting outward, coupled with a refusal to comprehend what others have actually said, purely because it may be uncomfortably nuanced and have more than one layer. I’ll joke like everyone else, and if somebody wants to decide I’m dead serious when I say “I’m going to force femme Richard Nixon” (look it up), that’s their own choice and they’ve made it deliberately.
FWIW it’s a shame that anybody ever disagrees with you in these comments, because most of the things you say are as dead-accurate to the truth of things as this post here is.
It could be any man, that’s kind of my point. The fact Joe is a man is important to the context of the narrative. Joe could be a total sweetheart for all i care but him continuing to date Joyce and Joyce breaking ul with Dorothy to stay with him would still be forcing herself to repress her attraction to women for the sake of her relationship with a man.
Hey as a bi person I. Kind of don’t like the way you keep framing this.
A bi person isn’t ’emotionally killing themselves’ by choosing to date — or at least consider — the ””opposite gender”’, even in the wake of a personal revelation of themselves.
Yeah, this is a bad take Big One. Bi women in relationships with men are not necessarily repressing their attraction to women or enbies any more than bi women in relationships with women are repressing their attraction to men or enbies, etcetc. You get it.
If you’re bisexual and monogamous, you do generally end up with one gender (unless you’re lucky and get yourself a genderfluid person who shifts around).
Personally, that’s what Joe really is to me, in this story. A man. I don’t see him as The Main Guy™, the Important Boyfriend™, none of that, he’s just one of the characters who’s a man, to me. From my point of view, calling him “a man” isn’t dehumanizing, it’s only admitting that’s his gender.
I mean, not to get Personal on a Comics chat, but i feel you brother. My local queer group has started a passive-aggressive purge against trans men using similar rhetoric that i’ve been seeing become more common all over the internet, so.
It probably shouldn’t be bothersome to admit Joe’s a man and, by implicit extension, that men are constantly getting women’s narratives rewritten to focus on their male feelings and viewpoint. Way I see it, Dorothy’s a woman, Joyce is a woman, Joe is a man, and we’re focusing on the two women right now.
There’s no greater diminishment of men happening in my posts, I’m not saying “Men aren’t important at all” or “Men are bad because they’re men” or anything in that genre. There’s no purge happening, either. I’m literally just admitting Joe is a man, because that’s the gender he’s written with. I don’t need to say legal name every time I mention him in passing.
At the very least in my comment, i was worded something badly. When i said ‘similar ehetoric’ i was thinking a lot more broadly about things i’ve seen pop up in the comments and not specifically your comment. It badly muddled what I was even trying to communicate, probably.
Like for real i let a personal frustration that’s been brewing over othercircumstances boil over into a convo with only the faintest of tangental links, that’s my bad.
Forgetting that Joe wasn’t “just a man” to Joyce? They spent a very long time getting to know each other before finally dating, and it was all Joyce deciding he meant something to her. Deciding that in the context of the narrative Joe is “just a man” is ultimately removing some of Joyce’s agency to decide who she loves. She isn’t obligated to love only one gender now that she has opened up to that possibility.
You think fanfiction doesn’t have consequences? You gotta start reading better fanfiction lmao.
They didn’t MAKE Becky cry. Becky’s emotions are totally valid and absolutely not Joyce or Dorothy’s fault. They care and feel guilty because they love her and are her friends, but they don’t deserve “consequences” which I assume here means “negative ones” for being in love in a way someone wishes they weren’t.
Real answer? Obviously this will never happen, but the ultimate spiritual consequence to this, punishing characters both in and out of universe, is Becky seducing Joe AND Walky out of sheer self-immolating spite. This at last gets through to and breaks Joyce (and incidentally Dina’s in pretty bad shape), Sarah isn’t talking to anybody but Joe at this point (though she tells him he’s being an idiot), and Dorothy watches in horror as its all falling apart and she can fix none of it because this time shes at the heart of the chaos.
That’s Ending E. You have to go a little out of your way to get to it, but not all that far really. If I recall, you need to miss with the frisbee in Chapter 4, forget Mike’s order during the Taco Bell event, and fail to distract Mary at some point. Might be a couple other steps, it’s been a few years since I did it.
The last thing I played with that many endings were the Nier series, and suffice to say one of them has at least one ending with an inexplicable giant flower.
(addenda:
– obviously, Nier also contains a lot of setting-inappropriate lingerie
– I recognize the flower is explicable if you’ve played a lot of other games to their true ending, I was riffing on a thing
– I should play more visual novels)
The school seems to be defending this as a finical matter – the school was subsiding the news paper as it was failing to make sufficient advertising revenue to cover the cost of printing. Maybe they are in the right. However personally, I find this suspicious. Foremost, if this was merely a matter of affordability, why only cut printing in its totality after the staff protested the removal of actual news (as opposed to home coming themes, and other vapid things that could never make the university look bad)? If the university was simply saying they no longer had the budget to support the printed paper, there should have been no discussion of its content. Secondly, while it may make finical sense to discontinue the printed paper (I can’t see their books or projections), I don’t think it can possibly be a clear cut matter of if the paper makes a return in advertising dollars, as a school news paper is an educational tool and investment. Even at a loss a strong and independent school news paper attracts prospective paying journalist students and higher quality candidates that might go onto win awards and raise the school’s reputation and thus askable tuition fees.
My mother’s a journalism teacher and this to me looks a lot like what happened under a previous principle – the school higher ups censoring stories to conceal their inadequacies in management and to try to turn the paper into a personal propaganda tool they could use to try to polish the school’s image without improving conditions and thereby gain an easy promotion for themselves. Screw the kids being cheated out of a real taste of investigative journalism and an solid education, they were on their way to bigger better things.
Yeah, it’s clearly a control development. Item-specific editorial control isn’t possible, it seems, because uppity democracy-insistence. So outright shutting down the entire thing is the next step in the media consolidation and control playbook.
[Suddenly, from nowhere, music begins to fill the air]
🎶 Love lift us up where we belong, where the eagles cry
On a mountain high
Love lift us up where we belong, far from the world
We know, up where the clear wind blow 🎶
I have made a personal decision: I have decided that I am now hardcore shipping Joe/Danny/Sal. This should satisfy all parties: the Joe-likers, the people who still hate Joe for his prior misogynistic acts and would prefer him to be with people who will ensure he never does that again, the polycule likers, the dude-likers, the people looking for simultaneously non-toxic non-cheating and preferably non-M/F bisexual rep, and the people who believe Sal 100% deserves a wealth of hot loving guys at her feet at all times i.e. the Correct Opinion-Havers.
All of which are also me, so, like, I’m pretty sure this needs to happen, if only in fanfiction that I don’t have to write myself.
Also Joyce is basically the corniest fucking thing ever when she’s in love and it’s adorkable and precious even as I simultaneously cringe. So there’s that. Love it and hate it, it’s really, really Joyce-like.
I think you dropped your crown and “100% Correct” sash. I want this polycule very much, and I’ve definitely thought Joe and Danny would be amazing together but had not considered the Sal addition and that really sets it off perfectly!
It would certainly be an interesting way to pick up the thread of Joe’s implicit bias towards trans women for his best friend to transition and suddenly be irresistibly attractive to him
Unironically I would LOVE this story (especially if it continues the trend of Joe Improvement ™ and doesn’t end up triggering anyone with his learning process).
You know what, I like the way you think, I’ll board this train. It’s been six months since we’ve seen Danny and nearly a year since we’ve seen Danny interact with his roommate/best friend. It’s weird to say since he was never high on my list of characters I liked (I didn’t dislike him, he was just secondary in my head), but I miss the goober.
Yeah, I’m just not going to be able to enjoy any of this while Joyce is keeping Dorothy in the dark about the poly stuff :/
Also, maybe calm down with all the “from the moment I met you” and “where you were always meant to be type comments until it’s been more than 12 hours since you gave someone else a BJ. I realize that kind of romanticizing is completely in character for Joyce (or really most 18 year old girls in new love, probably) so I’m criticizing the character not the author here, but still.
My love of cute girls doing cute stuff is why this feels particularly bad. Like eating a decadent chocolate cake and slowly realizing you don’t like how it tastes.
(This metaphor only works if you like chocolate as much as I do.)
Fair, but lots of people who like standard chocolate dislike white chocolate. 🙂 And probably also vice versa.
I picked it because white chocolate is totally fine, perhaps unlike Hershey’s chocolate haha, but if you were hoping for regular chocolate, it can be an unpleasant disappointment.
If only there wasn’t a growing social dumpster fire that will inevitably turn into a conflagration consuming most of the core cast, reminding this reader that the world outside the comic is already a multi-layered socio-economic-political conflagration that’s caused considerable damage, not just to my life but to hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of others. I pray for deliverance, but there is no god or gods, just the void that stares back, laughing at me as my life continues to crumble around me.
I cant tell if your being patronizing, mean, lighthearted or just patronizing and mean not but life is in such a horrible place it gets really hard to tell. 🫥
I like that both options have “mean” in them. Seems like a super good faith conversation you’re trying to have here.
You’re having a hard time, that’s fine, but you come here and dump it into a comment section of silly sarcastic people and then call me mean and another person shallow for not reacting the way you think they should. I was being silly and sarcastic, if you want to take that as mean, that’s something you can totally do.
You’re right i am being over-senstive. In retrospect i shouldnt have said anything to begin with other then approving of the cute scene. I shouldnt have posted my trauma sorry about the whole thing.
It could also just help to be more… plain? about it. It took a couple times reading it to even be clear where you were swerving away from the comic and talking real-world, which was most of it. Then the language you used… well, it certainly seemed aligned with what people use when *wanting* to invoke the jokey nihilism of the internet.
Not to say you were being over the top, fucking hellscape, but clarity here probably would have gotten more empathizing with what you were talking about/feeling.
@Yumi yes the comedic nihilism was not as clear i admit it did bleed through to my real life but yes you are very much correct i could have been more clear.
@Nymph I am sorry i wasnt clear in what i meant. i was out of line for saying you were being mean and jumping down the other persons throat i was being overly sensitive i probably should have phrased it better:. “You’re right, i am being overly-sensitve to folks. I shouldn’t have acted the way i did lashing out it was wrong. Yumi was correct to point out i wasnt clear not just in my intial post i also express regret for posting my own trauma into the commeng section and then lashing out when folks posted jokes
Enjoying angst doesn’t make someone homophobic. That’s kind of a serious accusation to make of a stranger who hasn’t commented on the sexualities of these characters at all. Plus, liking angst isn’t even remotely the same as wanting a character to be tortured…
I wish I could enjoy this moment, but their shitty behavior towards a whole bunch of other characters while getting together has kinda made that impossible for me.
(Copying the comment I left on the patreon yesterday, because I have THOUGHTS I wanna share):
So is this what’s going to cause the downfall of Joyrothy? Joyce thinks Dorothy “belongs up here”, in her bed, but her bed is a tiny island of solitude and privacy from the world that they have to live in most of the time. Once they have to be together in public, without the driving force of pent-up horniness that’s carried them through today, and interact with the world at large in ways beyond shouting their new relationship from the rooftops, are we going to see cracks?
Because… there has to be a downfall at some point, right? Even setting aside the terrible way they got together, the buildup to this point has been years (our time) / months (comic time) of Joyce putting Dorothy on an impossible pedestal, while Dorothy infantilises and condescends to Joyce (in a way that’s especially grating since Joyce’s autism diagnosis). Dorothy was still infantilising and condescending to Joyce as recently as this morning, telling her that her definitions of sex & meaningful milestones were things to be scorned and corrected. There’s no way all this groundwork leads to a healthy, lasting romance, and I’m impatient to get to the “gloriously dramatic implosion” part of the story.
Ah, yes, the one singular F/F couple in the series that didn’t end in heartbreak until Jorothy. How insatiably greedy of us to want more than one thing.
To be fair, I think *every* couple in the comic has ended in heartbreak except for Danny and Sal; everyone else is either kinda toxic or has only been dating for like a week.
All of the characters you just listed except for Becky and Dina (which is clearly being set up for self-destructive angst anyway) are barely relevant side characters we haven’t actually seen in months.
Sal and Danny are together and barely appear.
Jacob and Lucy barely appear anymore.
I legit only just now remembered Tony existed.
Oh yeah mary has that boyfriend sometimes. Ew.
Oh and Jason and Ruth. Which I can hardly tell if they’re together or just fucking.
Speaking of just fucking, Ethan and Asher. Who fill the qualifier of not a lesbian couple.
Also I totally forgot the Sierra grace Mandy polycule for the lesbian side.
So yeah. Mostly just side characters or tertiary characters nobody cares about.
As someone who is effectively blind without my glasses (and for a few reasons, I can’t wear contacts), sorry girls, but the glasses stay on during sex. 😛
Only if its cut to Joyce slowky reminding Sarah that she grew up in a hyper right wing Christian fundie household that forced Joyce to repress her attraction to women, and now she’s finally being able to explore that side of herself.
If everyone feels exactly the same about the way a story goes, it can’t be much of a story. I realize everyone who disagrees with my personal opinion on this storyline is a homophobic bierasing antiliberation victim of internalized toxic monogamy, but those people are still entitled to their reactions and opinions.
Idunno.
Tribalized parties ripping into each other and getting riled up by trolls used to be (slightly) more fun a few years ago.
Come to think about it: Wasnt all that much fun back then either. But it got even less so.
This is going to be so much funnier when they’re in the afterglow and Joyce tells Dorothy “Great news, Joe says you can share me!” and she goes “….what” because she doesn’t want to share, she wants to possess her by herself.
Dorothy will make an excellent organizer for the growing polycule. Post-it notes, spreadsheets (spread the sheets…hur hur hur), and Google Calendar. She’ll keep those chaotic college kidz in line.
I feel like if Dorothy is at all poly inclined(doubt), she’ll be more likely to react by saying “Why tf did I need to break up with Walky if you didn’t break up with Joe? Wait, I didn’t even really break up with him, you did it for me.”
Same. I doubt she would be up for it.
But yeah. If Joyce gets to keep her wall of tall, dark and handsome, Dotty gets to keep her caramel candy low-upkeep relaxboi.
Polycule by spreadsheet however sounds even more stressful than people seem to usually manage it. By constant drama and makeup sex.
You are probably correct.
But never underestimate a horny young mans willingness to suffer for nookie.
Especially when he has bad self-esteem and imagines himself to be devil-may-care type.
I agree it would be really bad for him tho.
Normally this would be really adorable to me and I’d quite enjoy today’s strip, but I hate the way that Joyce and Dorothy got together so it’s just . . . bleh.
I feel like I’m crazy. I see a lot of folks getting mad that Joyce hasn’t told Dorothy they’re in a poly relationship, but….didn’t Joyce not confirm anything? Essentially puting Joe’s offer on hold? Until she actively decides and/or does something with Joe isn’t it kind of nebulous? Like Joe might hold out hope that they don’t break up but while comic language might suggest it’s inevitable it doesn’t feel like a betrayal of Dorothy to be like “hey Joe wants us to be together and still be a part of my romantic life, are you OK with that?” “No” “OK I’ll let him know I decided against it then” would be a fair enough way for things to go down. (No comment on everything else though)
As someone who has read your comics since Roomies!, this has been such a wild ride to this point. Such a monumentous moment story arc in the comic. Loving every moment of it, Willis. It’s wonderful how the characters grow, develop, and change over time.
Man. I just love them both so much, it’s really nice to see Joyce being able to say this kind of sweet, sappy thing to Dorothy outright and without shame or excuses.
I’m not sure that shame has ever been in Joyce’s vocabulary where Dorothy is concerned. Self-denial, maybe, ignorance to her true feelings, sure, I’ll agree to that, but she’s never been particularly ashamed in her effusive praise and admiration of Dorothy.
These comments are giving me a “are we the baddies?” moment… I prefer JoJo to JoDo but the entirely unhinged comments from my side of the fence are making me wonder if there’s some fundamental flaw in that preference.
oof that’s relatable. I love both ships but hate how this all went down, and after reading enough comments I’m starting to wonder if even THAT relatively milquetoast position says something deeply and indelibly awful about me as a person.
As a card carrying member of the other side of the fence: you’re both fine, and we’ve had a few weirdos, too.
It’s just that the specific circumstances (where two queer women did material harm to two straight men) ALSO happens to provide bigots some cover for their bigotry, and some of them arr taking advantage of it.
It doesn’t make Joe/Joyce a bad ship and it definitely doesn’t make you two bad people for preferring it. You’re fine. 🙂
Honestly thinking of Willis’ stated inention of thinking about classic They’re Just Sooo So Close Besties Is All Teehee sitcom duos who couldn’t/would never get to just. Be Gay. And I can’t lie this makes me real happy, despite the (totally normal and Fun because I Like well written Messy Romance/Slice of Life Genre Drama, It’s Why I Read This) Messiness.
I realize now my earlier comment about “Dorothy needs to find out in like a week when Joyce kissed Joe in front of her” is a whole lot less likely than “Dorothy finds out when Sarah comes back tonight and asks if they did the breaking up and Joyce says she didn’t have to because Joe was cool with it.”
That is a very real feeling. The first girl I ever fell very deeply for was laying in my bed, we’d already been broken up for probably 2 years, and you know that scene a little while back with Alice biting her hand? It was like that.
We didn’t end up doing anything of the sort in today’s strip, and we successfully stayed broken up until we drifted away from one another, but the feeling of her actually being in my bed was VISCERAL. Mind you, this was a long distance relationship and I’d only ever gone to visit her due to work vacation and money being in my favor, so it was a new feeling.
But I understand Joyce’s feelings here on a deep level.
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yooooooooo they for REALS be gettin their freak on! o3o <3
*munches popcorn*
*and plays Mystery Kindaichi Disco on hacked muzak*
“Well, it’s some sick shit you two’re into, but I respect it.” – Malaya, probably.
Wait [alt text] only one hanky panky? Will they not get multiple hankies panky?
The best is when you and your partner do some energetic hanky, fall asleep all cuddled up, then wake up for a little more panky.
GAH!!!!! STOP IT!
Hanky pankies! Not “hankies panky”. I really hate this trend of pluralizing the first word in a two word construct. It’s incredibly grating.
I think this came up (much) earlier and hanky pankies would be doing it multiple times, but hankies panky would be doing it with multiple people.
Sorry, hankies-panky is canonical!
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/01-if-the-shoes-split/theplural/
Still pretty sure it’s spelled “hanky-spanky”.
That’s what I was remembering. So threesomes would be “hankies-panky”.
the question is, which is the modifier and which is the subject. Attorneys General makes sense because the General modifies the Attorney, so if the Hanky is the subject, and the panky is the modifier, it would be hankies panky.
CUTE CUTE CUTE
Joyce has been gettin real good at cute and romantic lines.
Not really.
Joyce & Dorothy are still super-dull as a couple. Despite Willis’s preference, every other couple in the strip have more energy.
Err, maybe not Asher-Ethan. But they BARELY interact.
Look, it does nothing for me either, but you don’t have to rain on others’ parade about it.
If there is no feedback, there can be no correction.
I *totally 100% believe* that in October 2026 Willis will adjust his writing to encompass my preferences.
Or, y’know. Not.
Then make your own damn comment about it instead of replying to someone else’s who’s just enjoying it. You made the decision to reply to someone else enjoying it to SPECIFICALLY yuck their yum, and now you’re hiding behind an excuse of giving feedback about the comic. It’s a dick move.
Yeah, Dawn’s comment didn’t need your feedback or correction.
Apparently it’s your first day on the internet. Welcome.
Try not to step too far from the shallow end.
Yes, really. If somebody finds the unsalted cisgender crackers cute, you actually don’t have any authority to tell them they don’t.
Does anyone actually have sort of authority in this? I’m thinking that not even that Willis person (who allegedly makes all this stuff) has any authority here. I say we’re all a collective anarchy!
How DARE you.
I refuse to be a collective anarchy.
If you’re not a singular anarchy, are you even TRYING, dude?
Yeah idk how to tell you this but art is subjective and people feel differently about it than you do. It’s actually fine it other people enjoy this.
pretty sure even if we saw Ethan and Asher interact more regularly they’d still be the lowest energy couple in the entire cast
that’s kinda their whole thing
My heart went doki doki and grew three sizes this day. I wasn’t super feeling the ship at first, but DAMN, Willis convinced me.
Dorothy: “That was amazing!”
Joyce: “It sure was! BTW, I-did-not-fully-break-up-with-Joe-and-am-considering-dating-you-both-at-the-same-time-but-I-really-wanted-to-have-sex-before-telling-you.”
Dorothy: “. . . ”
Dorothy: “WHAT???!!!”
I still don’t think she’s actually considering it. I think she’s just hesitating to say no.
I’m not sure that’s a distinction here, She doesn’t like it when Dorothy calls Joe her ex and If she wasn’t considering she’d have to trouble telling Dorothy about Joe’s proposal, a part of her wants to keep his offer on the table.
*no trouble
She did say “no” (“I cannot date two people at the same time”), she just didn’t have the chance to finish explaining herself. And a definitive “no” isn’t even necessary in the first place; the lack of a definitive “yes” is enough.
What does that even mean? If she didn’t give a definite “yes” in the moment, she can’t be still considering it?
Exactly.everyone must make all decisions instantly, immediately, and irrevocably, and anything other than an absolute YES YES A THOUSAND TIMES YES is *exactly the same* as NO FUCK YOU FOR EVEN ASKING. This is the only allowable way to live.
Saying she “said no” is a pretty generous interpretation of what she said. She said “I can’t date two people at the same time! I’m not a hussy!” There’s a decently strong implied “because” in between those two statements… and being immediately followed up by her realization that she IS a hussy throws significant doubt on the claim that she couldn’t.
Like. She may not go for it in the end, but she’s definitely going to have to give it some more thought. She only BARELY had time to register that it was allowed before running off to deal with the newspaper thing, forget about really considering if she wants it.
So both a cock AND clit-tease?
*ahem*
I’ll… let myself out.
Multitasking!
Yeah… Joe has just been waiting all day. He deserves better tbh
It’s been, like, an hour and a half.
I think we’re pretty far into the day at this point.
It seems like longer than it’s actually been, I think, because they’ve been running around like chickens with their heads cut off all morning. But I think pizza with Hank (which we didn’t even see) probably took more time than all the actual strips since Joyce ran out of Joe’s room.
(Also, pretty sure if Joyce were to explain that the reason she took so long to get back to him was that she was busy having sex with Dorothy, Joe’s response would be :fistbump:.)
In-universe comic time is different from the amount of time we’ve been going through this. This has all happened in the same day and they’ve already had like four Serious Conversations about other unrelated topics that were more immediately pressing.
What he asked isn’t exactly a casual thing and could have a serious impact on the relation Joyce has. Just because he asked and she doesn’t dismiss it out of hand, doesn’t mean he’s entitled to an answer before she’s ready to give one. If Joyce would figure she needed a week or a month to figure out if she wanted it, let alone ask Dorothy, than she could take a week or a month. Only thing that would be ‘off’ to me is if she’s not actually waiting to find the emotional space to make the decision, but just keeping him on the hook for keeping in on the hook’s sake, but that’s not what is happening here.
“Okay, look, I’ve thought about this a lot. And I have one condition: Joe has to tell you what rating he gave you on his old list.”
It wasnt good i beleive he gave Joyce a -1 or -10 idr.
No, he changed it to a 0(I think?) after they went on a date and she had Mike punch him. It was implied he rated her pretty high before that.
I recall Joyce saying that Joe gave her a zero, and she liked that because it meant that he saw her as a person. I have no idea how to find that strip.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/04-the-do-list/thoughtful-3/
It’s connected to one my favourite Joyce quotes of all time (‘What number was I, Joe, before i hurt you’ followed by Joe fleeing), which is the only way i stood half a chance of finding it.
Yeah, this one! So what was his original rating for her? I need to know this thing.
It was a 4, but was going to upgraded to a 10 after he had sex with her.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/03-men-are-from-beck-women-are-from-clark/corrupt/
Let’s not mince words, he was going to “upgrade” her to a 10. With his penis.
He said that very explicitly in those words. Danny filled in “with your penis”, and he repeated it to emphasize the point.
Folks who think Joe’s original rating for Joyce was romantic instead of the worst part of his character arc bewilder me.
Yup. That was Joe at his absolute worst, horrifically misogynistic, bordering on rapey frankly. Honestly I don’t blame anyone who still can’t bring themselves to like Joe after that kind of first impression.
That whole ‘everything you do matters’ exchange is just a great piece of storytelling
which is funny, cause if you ask like 70% of the readership, they’ll all tell you that Willis is a terrible writer who just throws random shit together.
Not that you should rate women but if someone physically assaults me while I’m on a date I would probably consider that a 0 too.
Oh brother
It’s every baby gay couple I knew in college
I wanna see Ruth suplex someone again
She and Billie better be fucking nasty style by the end of next week as repayment for having to endure this saccharine bullshit
This is, quite literally, what happens when you smash two cinnamon rolls together.
They fuck?
Every time. Don’t you know anything about evolutionary culinography?
They come together and it gets messy.
And then someone has to wash their sticky fingers in a mall bathroom.
This would radically improve Cinnabon shops for me.
Diabeetus?
She’s changing her major to sex with
Joan[Dorothy]…It’s all laid on a bit thick, isn’t it? I guess I’m happy for people who enjoy this relationship, but every time the strip focuses on them I just feel a whole lot of nothing. Something about them hooking up removed all the fun from the dynamic for me. I’d much rather get to see more of the Becky/Dina drama that’s being teased.
Yeah kudos to anyone who gets something out of these two but it is just doing nothing for me. Oh well. I know I’m gonna be annoying as hell when Billie and Ruth get back together so I can’t be too harsh on anyone else.
Wonder what Danny is up to.
The good thing about this strip in particular is that it leads directly to a slipshine so we won’t have to put up with joyce and dorothy for a while ’cause they’ll be busy behind the paywall.
Hey, the alt-text said we were on the precipice. It didn’t promise we were going over.
Dot, you read my mind.
No reason to be harsh on the fans of something, honestly, unless they were being harsh on the haters and then it’s understandable.
Man, Danny and Sal. Now THAT’S a relationship that has some fun to it without being excessively twee. Becky and Dina, too — let’s cut away from these dweebs and watch the *interesting* lesbians sort out this latest set of issues and build something stronger out of it (or not, I suppose, but I do like Becky and Dina as a couple).
Or Amazigirl’s mystery injury, that we still don’t know the precise origin of.
Sal having to be in cahoots with asher for the backdoor doctor thing.
Man what’s sarah doing right now? I miss sarah.
Sarah is totally about to walk in on these two.
Sarah was transsported into the shadow realm after mildly scolding the sapphic blondes. You hate to see it smh.
she should have akey
I notice they did say “lock both doors”, but not “put a sock on the door knob”.
ohhhh…so SARAH is going to be how Dorothy finds out she’s schtupping a married woman.
What, did Joe give her a lollipop and so Joyce couldn’t resist but marry him offscreen?
Yeah, it’s weird because I was definitely rooting for them, probably more than Joe/Joyce, but actually pulling the trigger did nothing for me. Hell, the cheating stuff was the most interesting part in a way that made it feel like they’d have been utterly boring without it.
yyyyup.
It feels a bit like Willis really wants us to root for this ship.
These girls who have had a lot of cute interactions, have been through together thick and thin, then get a confession forged in fire and steel. And to really try to sell us on it we get a load of saccharine moments, Jocelyne rooting for them, Joe being ‘okay’ with it to smooth a bit of it over.
It just doesn’t pass the mustard for me, unfortunately. The backdrop on which the ship was launched kills a lot of the ‘aww’ for me. The setup feels rushed, the protest storyline is unfortunate, and it’s like another reset on Walky’s development.
You’ve put into words what I couldn’t. I feel like I’m supposed to just accept this ship because it’s happening and regardless of how it occurred or what characters it affects none of that matters because this is going to happen so deal with it or read something else
You say that like its a bad thing lmao
It is, in fact, a bad thing. This ship gets more boring the more screen time it has in a vacuum that ignores the interactions these two have with the entire rest of the cast.
Buddy that’s just how media works? Like if you want to be the person whose feelings alter and decide the narrative, you have to actually go and write something. Alternatively, you can read something more to your taste.
Or sit here and be upset about the narrative not changing to suit you specifically, but that option seems silly to me!
Frankly, I can almost certainly say I’d like the ship significantly more if they’d actually go forth and deal with the ongoing swirl of drama that COULD be happening around it. But all of this disconnected stevia-sweet horny, over and over and over again, is just leaving a bad taste with no calories.
AO3’s right over there. Write your improved version.
“I don’t like an aspect of this thing” and “I am capable of doing it better/want to do it better” are not two concepts that automatically go together, my dude.
You seem terribly certain that it’s being done poorly. That level of conviction can (or should) only come from the knowledge of how to do better.
That’s a fundamentally ridiculous way to approach media, man, especially since I expressed a personal preference, not a universal judgement.
Granted, this wouldn’t even make sense even if you’d posted it on the one thing I say like it’s a reasonably objective thing, which is “the pacing on this seems worse than it has been.” — do you seriously think all art critics are (or should be) somehow as good or better artists than the things they criticize?
Sometimes a pairing being repeatedly written as “saccharine” is not an author trying to “sell” you anything, but just them authentically telling the story they want to tell.
*chuckle*
Yeah. But as a reader, we can say “Nahhhhh… “
Of course you can? Obviously.
It’s a crummy feeling to not be on the same page as an author about an aspect of a story that’s important to you. “I feel like the author wants me to root for something and I’m fully disengaged” can be frustrating.
I just… hm. I dislike seeing art talked about like it’s a product. The rampant rise of “content creator” instead of “artist”, of being “content consumers” (and therefore customers) instead of an audience.
Art is inherently political, sure, but not every piece of media is actively trying to persuade you to agree with the artist’s message? So often the point is just to get you thinking, and there are plenty of thoughts and feelings an artist might be trying to provoke.
I dislike seeing conversations about art reduced to just “I bought in, therefore it was a success” and “I didn’t buy in, therefore it was a failure”. Stories aren’t always trying to do that, and not liking what’s happening in a story isn’t always an author messing up. Sometimes it’s just an author telling a story you don’t personally like.
Things I’m NOT saying, emphatically:
— “Anyone who doesn’t like this should go away.” No, that is a silly thing to think, much less say. I think we all reach points individually where we might be happier disengaging with a story, or at least taking a break, but that’s our individual choice to make, and “stop reading then” is an obnoxious, unproductive response to criticism.
— “People who aren’t enjoying this storyline are reading it wrong.” No. It is a genuinely completely valid emotional response to a story. Sometimes it’s even what an artist is going for, though I doubt it’s Willis’s specific aim.
………side note? “it’s Willis personal fetish to put them together” is kind of a wild thing to say about a stranger, especially where they can see it, and in the context of a queer pairing, feels especially ooky.
“I dislike seeing art talked about like it’s a product”
I don’t really have a point to make on this, I just really love the old saying: “For the record, it’s called show business, not show friendship…”
‘K.
Yup.
They are TOO similar, so there’s no real frisson. Literally every other couple in the strip has more energy and ‘joie de vivre’ than these two.
But it’s Willis personal fetish to put them together, so we’re all stuck with it.
Alas.
Maybe the author will get sick of this ship at some point. Until then, I think we’re stuck with it. Does nothing for me either.
Willis likes to point out the strip is plotted a year in advance, unfortunately.
Thankfully, the archives allow me to start back from Day 1 of ‘Shortpacked!’ when it was still a comedy strip, and not an exercise in punishing the readers.
Also Mike was still live. And your Mom was happier – for a nickel.
It’s nice to sigh, go “…okay…”, then be able to scroll down a little to read someone else also sighing so I can feel like I have company before closing the tab.
^^^^^^^ I don’t have the energy for a coherent hashing out of why this ship (and this strip in particular) just feel so hollow, so it’s really cathartic/comforting to see takes from a lot of people who do.
And double “Oh brother” for the slew of “If you don’t ship these two or if care about any of the other characters they’re emotionally entangled with, you basically just hate lesbians” commentary around the thread today.|
Meanwhile, they keep getting less interesting every time this kind of shit happens — I am downgrading them further to “LaCroix-brand Plain Sparkling Water, that has been left out too long and is now flat”.
There *is* and has been plenty of misogyny and lesbiphobia around the dislike of these two characters together (some of the deleted comments early on were eye-scorching and I actually took breaks for a day here and there after reading them) so a lot of those accusations/questions/concerns are coming from a valid place. Or are a result of dogwhistles in certain comments, or the way Joe is being centered in a coming out narrative, etcetc.
There are definitely plenty of reasons not to like these two together that have nothing to do with any of that, but there are lots that absolutely do. And people who constantly have to be on guard can be forgiven for jumping at threat-shaped shadows sometimes, imo.
I feel like I can both “understand” and “be deeply frustrated by” the folks who are jumping at shadows in such a way that a lot of random “legit ordinary haters” are getting caught in the splash, y’know? I’m not going downthread to yell at ’em directly, I’m just being a bit grumpy up here in the hater containment thread.
One thing you said I want to dig deeper into, that’s really emblematic of the perspective-based nature of it all — “the way Joe is being centered in a coming out narrative”. That WOULD be weird, if this were perceived primarily as a “coming-out” narrative, but I don’t think it’s invalid (especially given Word of Willis) to perceive it primarily as a “cheating” narrative, in which case centering Joe/Walky as much as Joyce/Dorothy is kinda the point.
Realistically, it’s obviously both, and just as realistically even if Willis really intended to write a “cheating” narrative that’s not where the camera focus is, but just as realistically it’s kinda valid to wish it was, IMHO.
In addition to the question of whether it’s a “cheating” narrative or a “coming-out” narrative or both, and how we see that affects how we perceive what’s happening here, it’s pretty clear that at least some of the focus on Joe is because of actual dangling plot lines putting it there.
Obviously the initial start with cheating led to a need to put some focus on the boys, but even when Joyce did talk to Joe that left the unresolved poly offer on the table. We may differ on what Joyce thinks of that idea, but it’s still leaving Joe as part of this plot rather than a nice clean break.
Beyond that or at least as part of that, not all, but much of the alleged centering on Joe isn’t really focused on Joe himself, but it’s being taken that way by some. It seems to me that a lot of commenters are saying something like “If Joyce is still considering the poly idea and thus doesn’t consider herself fully broken up with Joe, she should talk to Dorothy about that before having sex, because that might affect what Dorothy wants”, which is somehow being read by others as saying that Joe has veto power or that she needs to finish the poly discussion with Joe before she is free to have sex with Dorothy. There’s confusion there that I think is giving some the perception that Joe is being centered in the discussion far more than he is.
Which is also all related to my own structural/pacing complaint that Doyce seems to be getting a lot more “cute together, no plot/drama happening” strips than other relationships have, at least all at once. Which can be maddening to me, knowing there are at least 6 potentially interesting stories that are happening outside the frame or got short-shrift to go back to this:
– the protest (and the newspaper, and Raidah/Asma’s respective reactions)
– Jennifer and Alice
– Dina and Becky
– Jocelyne (and her family relationships)
– Joe
– Walky
Point of order: the focus has been on Joe since long before anything remotely like cheating happened.
The comic’s focus or the audience’s? And wrt Joyce and/or Dorothy’s coming out story, or in general? (Not trying to make any sort of point with this comment.)
Heh I JUST posted a clarifying comment. We have bad timing.
Like, yes, it currently makes sense for people to be bringing him up, but he has been a constant topic of conversation. People were worrying about his feelings and speculating about how Dorothy hypothetically having feelings for Joyce wasn’t fair to Joe years ago.
People care a lot about Joe. But his centering in the comments has not always made obvious narrative sense.
Important context needed is that Joe isnt some incidental character Joyce happened to be dating at the time. Joyce and Joe’s relationship has been built up slowly over a course of years. Hell even before the time skip.
I often make the comparison to Becky and Dina cuz I feel like people would not shut up about Dina if Becky broke up with her for any reason. Because they’re invested in them together. Ruth comes up an awful lot during Jennifer strips despite them having been broken up for over 5 years now.
It is a bit unfair to act like bringing up Joe within 3 months of his ship being suddenly uprooted is some out of left field moment as if he was a nothing filler character. I had stopped reading the comic for years after the time skip and Joyce and Joe’s legitimately pulled me back in and got me reading daily.
I wasn’t saying any of that, and it’s not “Joe being brought up within three months”, it’s “Joe being brought up consistently in the comments of strips where he’s not present for the entirety of the last like five months”.
Again: people care a lot about Joe! They also care a lot about Joe/Joyce as a ship. Totally understandable!
I still think it was a little weird how often he wasn’t just being brought up in the comments of strips that weren’t about him, but also how often readers who just had like one-sentence comments like “I ship Joyce/Dorothy” got pounced on and accused of ignoring Joe’s feelings.
Again, this was happening LONG before Joyce and Dorothy actually kissed. It was happening long before it seemed like there was any realistic chance of Joyce and Dorothy actually liking each other. It happened in response to comments that in no way indicated “I hope Joe and Joyce break up and that Joe’s feelings get hurt”. Totally neutral comments that just happened to not mention Joe’s name were being read as hatred of Joe and/or endorsement of cheating, even before cheating was in any way on the table.
People just really like Joe, and they really like Joe/Joyce.
It’s totally understandable to bring Joe up right now. I’m just saying, the amount that he has been brought up HAS been disproportionate. Especially compared with Walky, who’s been more of a forgotten footnote in these conversations.
I for one have been quite insistent in bringing up Walky
Yes, Walky gets brought up occasionally, but given that most of what happened to Joe was also happening to him, the relative dearth of comments about him do serve to further underline that it’s not just “Joe is relevant”. It’s “Joe is beloved and people were/are really invested in his relationship with Joyce, which is magnifying how often he gets brought up.”
And yes, that magnification has been a bit disproportionate.
I think we have room for nuance here? We can acknowledge both that there’s a dangling thread here with Joe that makes him relevant even in his absence AND that it’s still been a pretty high percentage of ‘comments about Joe’ over the course of Dorothy coming to terms with her sexuality (still a WIP, imho) and Joyce realizing the extent of her feelings for Dorothy and now the two of them preparing to have sex for the first time.
(inb4 various comments about dryers)
Like, both those things are true. It’s silly of people to act like Joe is completely irrelevant, but it’s not like there’s nothing to the observation that Joe’s gotten a lot of comment air time during these storylines.
(And yes, some of that is Willis’s framing. Joe was made more relevant to Dorothy’s self-realization because he was the one who finally poked her about it in a way she couldn’t just brush off without thinking about, and of course he was/is(?) also dating the girl she had feelings for. Even so, the focus on him has been pretty intense.)
I stopped bringing up Walky after his heart to heart with jennifer cuz it at least gave off a semblance of closure. And admittedly cuz Dorothy and walkys two day sex filled relationship seemed flimsy at best. Though if I am bringing up Walky I will get pretty annoyed by how BADLY he is treated by the cast. He got laughed at for having been cheated on and then kicked for mildly sassing Jennifer. Which is like…their dynamic. But maaaaaan. Walky tends to just let shit go and I kinda wish he would like…get really mad or like really sad or something. Like in a visible way. Is that weird? I don’t think people realize he’s a person.
I still think it was a little weird how often he wasn’t just being brought up in the comments of strips that weren’t about him, but also how often readers who just had like one-sentence comments like “I ship Joyce/Dorothy” got pounced on and accused of ignoring Joe’s feelings.
So I totally get why people would be a hit jumpy. Sure “I like Joyce and Dorothy” seems innocuous but it also does kinda oppose Joyce and Joe since Dorothy hates Joe and none of the ceemed open to poly at the time.
As an example. I like dina and Joe. I actually think they have shocking amounts of chemistry. I would not he surprised if people got upset at me saying I think they make a nice couple. Cuz Joe getting with Dina would theoretically mean dina isn’t with Becky and people reeaaally like those two. So I dunno. It’s not too surprising.
@Yotomoe: if someone said that directly in response to someone else talking about how much they love Dina/Becky, sure. Even if they said it in response to a cute Dina/Becky strip, especially one where Joe isn’t even present, that would feel like at least inviting responses.
When it’s just a random top-level saying “I ship something that isn’t canon”, especially since I’m talking here about comments from years ago when no one seriously thought it ever would be canon, then jumping right to accusing that person of not caring about Joe’s feelings seems needlessly hostile.
(I didn’t really have a response to the Walky stuff. I think he deserves more consideration than he’s gotten! I think his jokey facade covers (poorly) for deep insecurity and I think his friend group is mostly made up of his girlfriends’ friends, and that sucks.
But I didn’t say “no one at all cares about Walky”, you know? I said he was often a forgotten footnote in conversations about how Dorothy/Joyce was a bad thing to even ship in your own head because of how much it would hurt Joe, and I think that’s just… factually true? The number of comments about Walky, for the duration of this whole thing, is just a lot smaller than the number of comments about Joe.)
Also I’m gonna say it directly:
There’s nothing queerphobic about shipping Dina with Joe.
Especially because she’s bi, but even if she was a lesbian, it would still be morally neutral to think she had great chemistry with a boy.
Something that I feel like some parts of fandom have definitely forgotten is that “I ship it” isn’t the same thing as saying “it should definitely happen in canon”. It’s not the same thing as saying “I think this ship is the best ship”, it’s not the same thing as saying “I think this ship would be emotionally healthy”, it’s not the same thing as saying “I think this ship should be endgame”.
“I ship Dina/Joe” does not in any way imply “I hope Dina and Becky break up,” and it DEFINITELY doesn’t imply “I hope Dina breaks Becky’s heart and leaves her a husk of a human being,” which is definitely how people have been treating “I ship Joyce/Dorothy” since the moment Joe expressed feelings for Joyce.
I cant say for sure I was privy to how often Joe got brought up outta context. I stopped reading for quite a whole and abstained from commenting even longer. So I admit it may be a worse issue than I’ve seen.
I will say another element, personally, is how often it is framed as lesbians vs. A man. As if this whole story wasn’t framed as a cheating story. I keep seeing the “a man” comment pop up and it’s really disheartening. Cuz it’s as if they’re saying he doesn’t matter “because” he’s a man. I’m sure that’s not always intended but thats how it often comes across. Which like…i get why sapphic love can seem more loving and legitbecause it pushes against the idea of heteronormativity in a society hostile towards it. I’m sure it’s not my place as cis man to ever be offended but man, I don’t like feeling like my feelings are hampered by my gender. As if it would be wrong for Joe or Walky to get angry. Or cry. Instead of amicably nodding and accepting it. And having any concern for them be framed as inherently straight vs. Gay and not “cheaters and cheatees” But man the story just…blew past these guys so fast as if their feelings DON’T matter. Like then being upset is an unimportant circumstance to the greatest love story ever told. I don’t know why this is a cheating story if nobody cares about the cheating. Or the people cheated on. It’s like watching a man have a heart attack and then watching people casually sidestep his body with no concern. I’m just staring at the screen going “somebody do something.” And it just feels like the comments and story just don’t really wanna deal with them? I’ll be honest. It was probably a joke but willis’ wheel of future events where Joe was just in a small little pie of “remembering he exists” and at that point I realized that this couple that reinvigorated my interest in this comic was an afterthought. The butt of the joke. And I’m a stupid idiot for having grown attached to it.
I agree with your other posts. Also I’m sorry the comment sections are riling you up. I understand if you need a break. Though I will say I always look forward to your input. You seem to at least be one of the more level headed commenters.
I feel better today. Gonna keep my participation to a minimum tho bc I still don’t think I’m in the headspace I wanna be for this comment section — I wanna be part of what makes comments worth reading, not part of what makes it hostile and toxic around here, you know? (Thank you for your last paragraph. I really do try, even if I mess up sometimes. ❤️)
1. First, thank you for saying this! I genuinely think so many conversations would be better here if more folks were willing to say, “oh I haven’t see that happening but I might have missed something.” It’s easy to feel like you’re seeing everything and like other people must be just wildly mischaracterizing something you did see, or even something you yourself said. (And I’m guilty of that too!)
2. I will say another element, personally, is how often it is framed as lesbians vs. A man. As if this whole story wasn’t framed as a cheating story. I keep seeing the “a man” comment pop up and it’s really disheartening. Cuz it’s as if they’re saying he doesn’t matter “because” he’s a man.
Honestly, I think part of the problem is that both of these things are true at once.
Joe is “a man”. He’s cis and straight and most commenters just think of him as white, rather than Jewish, so he basically seems like a big muscular manifestation of The Man. And he used to be a misogynistic creep, which a minority of readers haven’t forgiven him for, so in some senses it’s very easy to think of him as “just a man” who’s therefore an acceptable sacrifice on the altar of a queer ship.
Joe is also definitely someone who’s been wronged here! Who has feelings that most of us care about. Who’s also BEEN a genuinely important figure throughout this whole arc, from before be knocked on Dorothy’s door.
So I get where people are coming from. On both sides. That it IS both “straight vs gay” AND “cheaters versus cheatees”. That some people ARE totally indifferent to the cheating solely because it’s two girls, that some people ARE much more upset by the cheating because it’s two girls — that most of us fall somewhere in-between, but we’re human beings and more likely to be forgiving of a ship doing bad things if we like that ship or those characters a lot, and more likely to be unforgiving if we were already annoyed by those characters or really didn’t like that ship as a concept. It’s all true and it’s all tangled together and people are having big feelings about it. Especially with the State of the World.
3. I’m sure it’s not my place as cis man to ever be offended but man, I don’t like feeling like my feelings are hampered by my gender. As if it would be wrong for Joe or Walky to get angry. Or cry. Instead of amicably nodding and accepting it.
I just wanna say: what you’re feeling isn’t just, like, in your head, or you being a bad ally.
There IS a genuinely strain of anti-masculinity in some parts of the queer community, just as there’s a genuine strain of anti-femininity in other parts. There are misogynistic gay men who think it’s fine and harmless because they’re gay, and they’re not just misogynistic about women; this is the “no femmes on my Grindr profile” segment of the community, the “ugh I hate it when gay men act TOO gay, why can’t they be macho like me” segment.
Meanwhile, the anti-masculinity thread looks like: spaces that claim to welcome “women and nonbinary people”, but by “nonbinary people” they mean “people I can comfortably categorize as woman-lite”. People they think they can clock immediately as amab, and anyone with a more masculine-leaning gender presentation, are “out”. Which is an environment that sucks for transmasc people, for anyone who is or looks amab, even for cis butches who are “””too””” masculine. It’s also an environment that forces people to disclose the specifics of their assigned-at-birth gender and their transition goals. It’s going to be harsh as hell on trans women who are too early in their transition, and it doesn’t understand butch trans women or genderfluid people at all.
Also, the idea you’re echoing, that sapphic love can seem more loving and legit — I think for some lesbians it’s absolutely true that a good relationship with a woman can heal a lot of old wounds, but this pervasive idea that woman = victim and man = predator is incredibly toxic for everyone. Even the most high femme cis lesbian in the world is harmed by this mentality. There is truly no better environment for a predator than one where everyone’s agrees they can’t possibly be a predator by virtue of their immutable characteristics. Sufficiently Femme abusers absolutely flourish in these environments.
All of this is to say nothing of the racialized dynamics. A lot of our idea of what a high femme woman even is is based in white supremacist standards. IIRC, most of the professional athletes who have been targeted by transphobic attacks like demands to test their testosterone levels have actually been cis women of color, especially Black cis women.
I’m sure I’m not really saying anything you don’t already know, but I’ve seen you kind of apologizing for feeling targeted by “all men are awful” rhetoric and… sure, sometimes that’s coming from a place of legitimate trauma, but also: you’re not horrible for being hurt by it. You’re not the only one being hurt by it.
Even someone who doesn’t care at all about the feelings of white cis men needs to stop for a moment and realize that a world where people are only welcome if they’re either a cis woman or a trans person is a world that’s going to be just as gender-policing and creepy about what’s in all of our pants as any TERF.
(I’m not actually saying here that it’s okay to not care about the feelings of cis men as a group. I’m just saying that even if you’re that person, this line of thinking still deals a lot of “friendly fire” damage to people you theoretically care about.)
4. I’ll be honest. It was probably a joke but willis’ wheel of future events where Joe was just in a small little pie of “remembering he exists” and at that point I realized that this couple that reinvigorated my interest in this comic was an afterthought. The butt of the joke. And I’m a stupid idiot for having grown attached to it.
This was me about shipping Joyce and Dorothy for soooooo long and I am so incredibly sorry you’re feeling that way.
You’re not a stupid idiot. Even if it were somehow the worst pairing in the world, you still wouldn’t be stipid for getting attached to it, but it is decidedly NOT that. If this is really the end of that pairing, it’s a shame because they were often really cute together, and their dynamic (whether romantic or not) has been a huge part of the comic for a long time.
And… again thank you for your kind words. You’re definitely one of the best parts of the comment section, as well as being a very talented artist.
Instead of all that babble on my last point I should’ve just been like.
Read The Will to Change by bell hooks.
Just responding that I read your post and I’m glad you’re feeling better. Thanks for taking the time and I don’t really have much to add other than “it is what it is”
@Li, this is an old(er) comment, so sorry for bringing this thread back up, but as a lesbian, I have to stop you there with the dina comment. It is not morally neutral, and would absolutely be lesbophobic to say “I want this canonically lesbian character to end up with a man”.
It’s impossible to divorce a statement like that from context and pretend that it’s equivalent to saying you want, say, a straight girl to end up with another girl. In an ideal world, there wouldn’t be a difference, but we don’t live in an ideal world, we live in a world where misogyny, homophobia and lesbophobia are powerful societal forces. Lesbians being with other women is a challenge to the status quo, and specifically to patriarchal ownership of women.
Saying that you want a lesbian to be with a man is not morally neutral, it is a reinforcement (whether it’s meant to be or not) of these misogynistic, homophobic, and lesbophobic ideals – the idea that we can be “fixed” or that we “just need to find the right man.” It’s violent rhetoric.
I want to say that by no means do I mean to attack you here, I don’t think you meant this in that way, and I know this might seem like a lot over a hypothetical, but even as a hypothetical, this kind of thing can be harmful
@OsteraToralen: first of all, Dina is not a lesbian. She is canonically gray-ace and bi (both in this universe where she’s stated that she’s “not sure gender is a factor” for her, and in the Walkyverse, where she was only ever shown to be attracted to Walky). So. If we are going to do some sort of “my specific type of queerness gives me more expertise here than yours,” I am both bi/pan and gray-ace. And I’ve only ever dated or wanted to date women, if that for some reason makes any difference to you.
Second of all “I ship this” is NOT “I want these two characters to find love together [in canon],” which was part of my whole point. Elsewhere, I criticized someone for grossly asserting that it would be “perfect” if Becky seduced Joe and Walky, because… yeah, that is a gross thing to say, especially because they were positing it as some sort of justice for Becky / comeuppance for Joyce and Dorothy.
But the idea that JUST shipping something, just thinking two characters have good chemistry together, is inherently “violent rhetoric” is exactly what I was pushing back on, and I am going to continue pushing back on it. I respect that you disagree. I’m going to keep arguing that just shipping something, which again doesn’t mean you even hope those two characters will actually ever date each other canonically, is not inherently bad and does not automatically make someone a bad person.
I’m a dyke and a tranny so I’m certainly sympathetic to people feeling they need to be on constant alert for bias and prejudice, both implicit and explicit. It’s definitely true that especially early on there was a significant amount of homophobia directed at these two, and as a gay woman I know how that stings.
With that said, I have a lot less sympathy for people who get aggro towards people for disliking DoJo for no actual reason, or for people who think there should be no narrative consequences for the cheating (a lot of the comments made toward Sarah when she called them out frankly border on racist and engaging in negative stereotypes of Black people being especially homophobic).
At this point I’m just ready for this storyline to be over so the comment section can find something new to be angry and stupid over.
At this point I’m just ready for this storyline to be over so the comment section can find something new to be angry and stupid over.
Me too. Which sucks, because I’ve wanted these two to get together for more than a decade, but it is definitely approaching “okay I’m going to stop reading for a while because I can’t make myself not read the comments and the comments are miserable to read”.
Yeah, I have noticed lately that my actual ability to enjoy the strip has been effectively neutered by the constant rote negativity towards it in the comments, which sucks, because it was something I used to enjoy engaging with, and it’s hard not to habitually want to see what other readers are talking about. Even like a year ago, it wasn’t like this.
I’ve tried to just not pay attention to it, but that requires deliberately avoiding something that was part of the existing cycle of checking the strip every day or night. IDK I just miss the strip being fun and the readers enjoying it. I think that if I wasn’t digesting everybody else’s rage, I’d have much exceedingly bad to say about it, let alone be dripping with abject seething hatred of fictional teenagers who have more justifiable excuses for being so unworldly, than most of us in here who are fanatically criticizing them.
*[don’t] think
Oh ABSOLUTELY Sarah caught a ton of shit that was just an excuse for people to be cruel about a black character. She always does.
Same happened to Raidah too. I distinctly remember someone implying she was only upset cuz they were gay and not…everything else.
Something about Raidah makes half the comment section turn their brains off and bring out the pitchforks no matter what she’s actually saying or doing in a given strip.
Well, if she’d stop literally sawing my real life dog in half with a piano wire, maybe I wouldn’t get so pissy.
Would you prefer she use a buzz saw?
@Taffy stop getting such shit-teir dogs, then.
Probably about half “racism” and half “introduced in a way that set her as opposed to Sarah, who people seem to actually like”. Lotta folks have a hard time seeing her as a nuanced character when she’s been consistently portrayed as a social climber and pissy at Sarah for not-really-valid reasons.
And early being creepy condescending to Dina and friends with people who were openly gross to her.
We also know she’s willing to fake friendship when it suits her, which makes essentially everything she’s said to anyone but her cronies suspect.
Man, it’s weird that I forgot about that because now that you reminded me it happened I remember that’s when I really started disliking Raidah rather than just thinking she was kind of a dumbass.
hot take: i don’t think you should be able to say those slurs on this website. if bongo and conga get censored, i don’t think homophobic and transphobic slurs should be allowed, either. as a gay transgender woman myself, i don’t like seeing *anyone* use those words for people like me in public like this. I think the site should have better moderation.
If the T-slur gets censored, can it be filtered to say “Totoro”?
I don’t even know what the T-slur is on account of being dense or old or possibly both.
Reclaiming slurs is and has always been a thing, and oh wow is “no one should be able to say LGBTQIA+ slurs on this website” a monkey’s paw wish.
Gay isn’t just happy and that’s not how it was being used when they started calling us that, it meant promiscuous. Slutty. Dirty.
Oh yeah and then there was that whole movement in the 2000s complete with promos featuring Hillary Duff begging teenagers to stop using “gay” as a synonym for “bad and shitty and stupid”.
All of our words have been slurs, or pathologies, or both, because homophobic transphobic biphobic etc society considers our identities to be inherently bad.
You do not want this rule to be made universal. Work through your trauma response to other people’s identity words instead of trying to make your feelings law.
(inb4 some people reclaim bongo — yeah okay but until we have communities of women literally identifying as bongos and congos, that’s not REMOTELY the same thing)
idk why i even tried.
I agree! I don’t know why “other queer people self-ID with words I don’t like” is even something you have room to be upset about with the state of the world right now, and I am baffled that anyone would call for more censorship of our identities in this climate, regardless of their personal feelings on a word.
as gently as possible, li, a trans woman just said “hey don’t say that here, that language is bigoted and not appropriate for this setting where you don’t know everyone’s comfort with that sort of thing” and you got mad at her. why do you think that is.
i know this is the “I CAN’T be bigoted if I’m margianlized myself!!!” website but like come on.
Because you said it to another trans woman who was proudly using those words as her identity, Megan, that’s why.
How is “I think the words I’m not comfortable with should be censored” not obviously a pit with no bottom when we are talking about the queer community.
I could use those words to self-ID, too. I don’t. I’m not fond of them.
I am very attached to queer, though, and I know how some people feel about that.
And I have legit trauma around the word “lesbian” because it’s what happened to be snarled at me while I was growing up, but I know better than to say “hey I don’t think anyone should be allowed to cal themselves a lesbian in public because it was hurled at me when I was a kid.”
Okay. Walking away from this. I stand by my stance but not my approach. I am biting people’s heads off today, so I need to just. Step waaaay back.
Have a good one.
I don’t really expect anyone to take me at my word on this, it probably looks like just ducking out of an argument in cowardice. That’s okay. But this is genuinely just me having a “I’m not being the person I want to be” moment.
The suggestion to censor slurs obviously got to me in a real bad way, but Megan is just a random person. She doesn’t even have the power to actually moderate this comment section. She’s not who I’m angry at, she’s not why I’m afraid and miserable. I wanted to defend Dot, but if I were Dot, I wouldn’t want a defense of this temperature, heh.
I’m so mad about crab buckets that I’m doing my own version of it, and it’s no more productive.
So yeah. Stepping back. Trying to be the person Mr. Rogers knew I could be. All of that.
how am i supposed to have a good one after what you decided to say to me?
i never told anyone to never say whatever words they personally want, i said not to do it *HERE, in public, where other people who have trauma and bigotry-related anxieties have to see them.* That is an exceedingly reasonable thing to request and, again, because its all ANY of you are capable of towards me, it was met with a vitriolic screed about how i’m not a real ally towards my own community.
have even a single one of you thought through your words ONCE before sending them to people??? maybe i’d be less “aggro” if you bigoted bastards didn’t pull this shit every time. i should not have to be made suicidal over a fucking webcomic about gay teens.
i hope your day is shit.
As gently as possible, Megan, you just said “i don’t like seeing *anyone* use those words for people like me in public like this.”
YOU may consider them to be “not appropriate for this setting”, but as you pointed out, this is a PUBLIC space on the internet where YOU “don’t know everyone’s comfort with that sort of thing”. Some people *are* comfortable using them. Some people *strongly* identify with them and actively seek to label themselves as such.
If these are words that cause YOU distress and discomfort to the point that you feel both comfortable and ‘in the right’ policing the speech of another gay trans woman, then setting up a browser plugin to filter/swap them out is something YOU can/should consider doing.
Implying that anyone who won’t cater to YOUR comfort is transphobic is just petty.
Thanks, SunflowerBanjo, for putting this much better than I actually did. I got really upset and lashed out, when all I should have said, repeatedly, was:
“No, you didn’t just say you were uncomfortable with these words, you said no one should be allowed to say them in public and called for their moderation.”
Megan, I’ve defended you before because I do think you catch a lot of flak that is often disproportionate to what you’ve said. S’not a defense of me being a lot harsher in my replies here than I meant to, it’s just a fact.
I’m sorry you felt so awful yesterday and I hope you feel better today, regardless of how you feel about me.
Li’s correct, it’s definitely a monkey’s paw. When the Cryptic Studios games had their own forums, the Star Trek Online forum would autocensor “naughty” words to “TRIBBLE”, in all caps. Slang in other English-speaking countries being what it is, the word “doorknob” would be censored, because the word “knob” is in it. We also couldn’t discuss the name of the author of Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?, which (me being me) led to the commissioning of the science vessel USS Philip K. TRIBBLE.
You’re well within your rights, Megan, to feel uncomfortable with those words being used. I am also within those rights to reclaim them and use them for myself.
You do not get to police the language I use to describe myself or the slurs I get to reclaim. I recognize that those words make you uncomfortable. I would never use them to describe you because of that. But as you say this is a public space – and in public space, in queer community, there are going to be people who use reclaimed slurs to describe themselves. Thats simply a fact and if you want to hang out around other gay people it is something you are going to have to get used to. I am not saying this with any malice or vitriol. I acknowledge your discomfort. But I am not going to censor myself because of it.
Now with all of that said I do think others in this thread have come at you much hotter than they needed to on this subject and I apologize for that on their behalf as another trans woman. I understand feeling like you’re being belittled or not taken seriously or talked down to because you’re a trans woman, and how frustrating that is. I don’t blame you for feeling like you need to respond in kind just to be taken seriously. I think your feelings are completely valid and you should be treated respectfully for expressing them, even if I firmly disagree. I recognize that, to say the least, we are not friends, but I hope that the rest of your day is easier for you.
Counterpoint: I think that comment moderation should be done by human beings, not machines.
The b word actually appears in the comic’s dialogue, which I was shocked to see when I went back through the early Raidah/Sarah storyline last week.
Counter-counterpoint: Willis is going to have to do a lot more Slipshines to hire enough staff to read, moderate and censor/replace slurs in real time on the forums.
Just as a piece of information, bongo at least is censored on this site not on general principles, but because it was massively overused in the comments way back – in strips about Roz, I believe.
While that doesn’t likely change anyone’s opinions about the words, I think it does change the idea that “if bongo and conga get censored …”
Dot has the right to refer to herself as she likes, and you equally have the right to refer to yourself as you wish. If someone goes calling other people slurs and being an asshole, then yes, that shit’s getting moderated. Dot clearly isn’t a bigot. You can think her post was cringe if you want, but as others have pointed out, reclaiming words has long been part of queer culture. Case in point. I know some folks from older generations dislike being called “queer,” if they prefer I not use that word to refer to them personally, I won’t. EZ.
Suggestion: use a word replacer extension! I, too, dont like the word, but it has a lot to do with trauma. I use a replacer so that it allows people to say their words but it doesn’t affect me.
Because this is also supposed to be a cheating narrative?
Cheating narratives are supposed to have consequences?
That’s why they’re cheating narratives
Heh, gay
Aw, that’s sweet.
love how dorothy is not just on the bottom but actively posed such that joyce can pin her down immedietly. i’m so fuckin jazzed for these two! #doa theocracy!
Doa theocracy? Is Dorothy about to nailed into the bed for our sins? Shall she rise again on the third hour having triumphed over little death? What the heck is going on here?
worrisome implications vis-a-vis the burning bush
I mean, I wouldn’t be surprised if these two could unintentionally start a fire in the dorm, the way things are going.
Theocracy is one of joycerithys ship names
Dorothy being a christ like figure would explain Joyce’s initial attraction to her!
She literally only wanted to be president, because she grew up in a household where her central authority figures were genuinely supportive and good for her, and had her best interests at heart, for her whole life; her little girl dream is just “I wanna grow up and be in charge so I can be good at being in charge, and make Bad Things Not Happen.”
It may be insanely naive, the same way that wanting to be a Fire Truck when one grew up would be naive; but, that’s how being a literal child, works. Anyway, tl;dr, Dorothy is a Christ-like figure in some ways, and her and Joyce coming to the same moral and ethical conclusions from opposite theological perspectives, is like, the enduring purpose of both of their characters in the narrative?
I wonder what art-work would go with a “Dorothy was nailed to the bed for our sins” T-shirt.
or I guess that would be “nailed in the bed.”
I read that as “do a theocracy,” like when Joe said a bit ago “did I just do an empathy?” So that was… interesting
Dorothy Performs a Theocracy
This is the future Raidah saved us from, actually.
Since we’re now experiencing this future, doesn’t that mean Raidah failed to save us from it?
Okay, Dorothy don’t have my vote anymore /s
Ah, le fromage. Magnifique
“Are you really like this, like did you walk out of a Full House episode, or is this some kink-ass roleplay thing?” – Malaya, definitely
“The thing is, I like corn.” – Willis, probably, after Walt Disney
“Sometimes a little cheese is good.” – Me, today.
Of course they’re cheesy ^^ Gotta love Willis’ commitment to keeping his characters in-character.
Despite all the drama as these two have caused in the past few weeks; this is sweet, and I am happy to see them so in love. _> who else is looking forward to the Slipshine?
There was meant to be a heart, and a face, but apparently it was deleted.
Slipshine or Other Patreon.
So wait. Slipshine is different to Other Patreon? I mean, apparently.
I’ve never paid that much attention so I don’t understand Internet Pornlord financing. Do they overlap?
From what I’ve gleaned, the Slipshine comics are basically a commission of a kind? They’re a NSFW comic thing, they reach out to Willis and go “hey we’ll hire you to do a sexy comic”, Willis has the creative control as far as art and who the characters are, Willis tells his readers “sexy comic, go here to buy it” and Slipshine handles the distribution and keeps a cut of the profits. The Other Patreon, meanwhile, is just a NSFW patreon. It doesn’t have to be specifically commissioned by a third party, it’s basically up to what Willis and/or their patrons may desire, and he can kinda do whatever he wants. I think that’s why he cannot post the Slipshine stuff onto his Other patreon for example, because that’s technically Slipshine’s. I could be wrong but from what I’ve read I think that’s basically the gist.
I am thinking you has the right of it.
Okay, that mostly makes sense, but I don’t get who actually does the commission and stuff like that.
Wikipedia tells me that Slipshine was at least party founded by the writer/artist of Girly which is a real throwback, I read Girly. xD
Honestly I just want reassurance that they’re not about to break up due to sexual incompatibility because a not so small part of me still doesn’t really believe I’m finally seeing this particular dynamic be paid off, instead of just a joke at my expense for liking the chemistry of the pair in question.
Not that the slipshine wouldn’t be cute ❤️ but I’m otherwise happy to just see these two continue dating.
As a person who’s not liked this pairing and moreso not liked how it’s went down at all, if if ended like that I would immediately 180 and love everything that led up to this long term audience troll in the new context. But that’s not Willis’ style so I’m not holding out for that one.
Yeah, uh.
I’m glad that something that would make me deeply miserable would be the greatest thing you’ve ever read or whatever.
Ugh. Look, I’m the opposite of a Doyce-as-written fan, but if this pairing splits about ANYTHING short of basically full-scale Armageddon (hyperbole) after well over a decade of foreshadowing and buildup, it’d basically turn Willis into their OWN Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson sequel, and literally no one wants that.
They’ll split up over Joyce wanting to take up Joe’s poly suggestion and Willis will need to go into protective custody to escape the wrath of the commentariat.
Heh, thanks. Folks have expressed this opinion (“wouldn’t it be a great twist”) a LOT, and I’ve almost always just scrolled past, but having it said directly to me, in response to me talking about how I’m still kind of anxious about a rug-pull that turns this whole thing into one long joke at my expense…
It’s like “okay now this feels a little personal”, fff.
I certainly hope we get a Slipshine, but as someone pointed out on Patreon, it might be a bit of tricky one to do, what with balancing the plot significance of Joyrothy’s first time, their mutual inexperience having sex with women, and making it good porn. Also, given recent events in his personal life, Willis may not be in much of a headspace for making porn.
Those are some good points; particularly the last one. If we don’t get one I’ll be disappointed, but completely understandable why we might not get one.
A very good point. Even if they’re also done a year in advance — a year ago wouldn’t have necessarily been a much better headspace for it.
To Be Continued on Slipshine
Willis is about to make so much fucking money.
“I Just Like Seeing You… Down There.”
Awwwwwww 😀
What you said, but with more exclamation marks at the end.
Don’t trust loft beds! Not bunk beds. Bunks are very trustworthy.
God they’re so fucking adorable
God they’re so adorable fucking
I hate them
Cute!
Yeah, after a decade, it finally happens.
Decade and a half
Am I supposed to feel happy for them? I havent seen a relationship this selfish since billie and ruth
Billie and Ruth were the best couple this strip has ever had, and it’s not a close competition.
Cosigned
+1
Me four!
I am very much happy to see Dorothy and Joyce together, but it’s impossible for me to disagree on this. Billie and Ruth were magic
Yeah – Dorothy and Joyce have been obvious for ages and I do in fact love to see it, but holy shit Billie and Ruth were fire. Nearly literally, I suspect, on more than one occasion. But fire is fire, and I do miss it.
I mean, yeah.
Billie and Ruth were the most interesting couple and had the most chemistry. Best couple depends on your metric.
I concur.
That said Walky and Amber rocks my socks and never stops.
I mean I did feel very happy about Billie and Ruth. They were a lot of fun.
Love is inherently selfish.
No?
It isn’t a bad thing, it just is. Love, by definition, prioritizes your feelings over everything else.
Uh, maybe for you it does, but that ain’t my style or the style of anyone I’ve ever known in my personal life who wasn’t a complete douchebag. Maybe you could elaborate on this sentiment?
I’m sorry that’s been your experience of love!
Yeah that sounds like either I’m misunderstanding what you mean or you’re having a very different experience of Love than any definition or experience I’ve ever known.
I would assume that with love, particularly for a person, their feelings are the ones someone who is in love would prioritize. Like, say I have a girlfriend. I’m gonna prioritize her feelings, her desires, her wants, because I’m a loving partner. My lady wants chocolates, I’m getting her chocolates.
I’m sure someone could argue that philosophically, that is still selfish because I ‘get’ something out of doing something for someone I love but I feel like that’s just gonna regurgitate the same circular arguments that were had when people were talking about Rachel’s take of “doing good things is selfish because you get something out of it”. There’s a certain point where people need to remember what words mean. An example of selfishness is if I go up to a trick or treat bowl and shove all the candy in the bowl so no one else can have some. It wouldn’t be an example of selfishness if I decide to put out a trick or treat bowl for trick or treaters to have candy at their leisure just because the act of doing something for others gives me a bit of dopamine.
*shove all the candy in my bag, ugh this is what I get for commenting at 8 am
Yeah, really. I once tried to come up with an overarching definition of love that would encompass romantic love, familial, platonic, etc. What I came up with is love is when you prioritize someone else’s needs and desires above your own. Kind of the opposite of selfish, really.
But that version is wide open to abuse, if they’re not really returning the same priorities (Somewhat different in cases like young children, where they’re dependent on you.)
The best definition along similar lines I’ve seen is “When their happiness is essential to your own.”
In one of his more rambling novels, Heinlein had several characters discussing over the course of it what “love” was. (It was of vital importance to one of the characters, a self-aware computer; she needed to know if what she felt toward the director of the Howard Institute was love.) The final conclusion reached, and one I believe to be valid, was, “Love is that state in which the happiness of another is necessary to your own.” I suppose a strict Randian might call that “selfish”, but that’s probably the least of the things I’d argue with a strict Randian about…
With Heinlein’s philosophy on polyamory, that conclusion tracks. (And agreed, it’s good.)
On that note, I wouldn’t be surprised if Joe has read ‘For Us, the Living.’
It’s still your feelings for said person (or people) that drive your actions, is all I mean. In prioritizing their needs and wants, you’re also prioritizing your emotional connection to that person. Their hurt becomes your hurt, their joy naturally feeds your own.
And there’s nothing wrong with that.
Okay, then I guess it’s “selfish” to eat food at all.
That’s uncomfortably close to the “there’s no real altruism, since anyone doing good is actually getting rewarded by their own desire to be virtuous and/or society’s love for the virtuous”, which frankly sounds like bunk to me.
It’s fully bunk, to be sure. If deriving any pleasure from something is all it takes to be “selfish”, the word becomes meaningless. Bad, good, neutral, the moral framework is close to irrelevant if caring deeply about others is getting shoved in there like a used napkin.
It’s definitely one of those moments where personally I look at it as “okay, that statement of belief leads to Objectivism in the general case, are you SURE that’s how you feel?”
Pleasant is not the same thing as selfish. You can enjoy, crave, and even need something without it being “selfish” to indulge in.
Selfishness is not synonymous with “for yourself”, it requires you to overlook/disadvantage/not care about others while you’re indulging in the thing you like. It connotes damage being done to other people around you or neglect for things you are responsible for as a result of indulging.
I think maybe this is just a misunderstanding of the word tbh.
Devil’s advocate I will say love can have selfish ELEMENTS.
Like I want a girlfriend cuz I wanna kiss someone or cuddle someone or have someone to talk to or stave off my own feelings of loneliness. Which could just be me wanting anotjer person to help make me feel more complete. I think the difference is that I dont haaaave a girlfriend yet. If I did I would probably want to do things with and for her. Cuz I love her. But since.i haven’t met her yet I can only really focus in what I would get out of it.
What
You’re supposed to feel whatever you feel.
If you don’t ship something, especially if you anti-ship it, there’s nothing any author can do to change your mind.
Which is fine, totally valid, but like. It’s not a failure of the writing, either. The people who like this ship are enjoying it! The people who don’t aren’t. It’s that simple.
Whatever is wrong with the people that don’t feel the way I happen to?
@Li
Facts.
In a sense that’s tautological, but it’s not quite as simple as that. There are some in the comments saying they shipped them before they actually got together, but aren’t enjoying it now. It’s not really just whether people ship it or not if people are changing their minds as it plays out.
Of course it’s still true?
What I said was that authors cannot make people ship something when they don’t, especially when they anti-ship something.
I think if you reread that, you’ll find that it does not in any way imply that people can’t change their own minds, or that the way a ship happens can never make someone un-ship a thing they previously shipped.
But folks keep commenting as if “this is boring” and “they’re being shitty people so it’s impossible to like this” are objective facts that prove Willis needs to make sweeping changes to what they’re writing.
They’re not objective facts and at the end of the day, this isn’t our story to dictate. Willis is more receptive to and responsive to feedback than any other author I’ve ever seen, but “are we supposed to find this cute? Because it’s not” is just. Jeez. Okay, sorry you feel that way, but your opinion is not the only one.
like. This is art. Individual reactions that may differ from the author’s intentions are a feature, not a bug.
ESPECIALLY when the reaction is so divided and intense, it definitely can’t just be the case that Willis has failed to convey exactly what they meant to convey here.
Some people in the audience not enjoying the story you’re telling isn’t proof that you’re telling that story wrong, especially when the point of contention is something as volatile and personal as a ship.
Also: let me acknowledge that Animedingo didn’t actually use the word “we” in the first sentence.
This may well be a case of the straw breaking the camel’s back, in which case I apologize for coming out so hot. I’m tired and I should definitely take a long comment if not comic break again.
That’s where I’m at. I was for the ship until it actually went down, with HOW it’s gone down souring me on it.
Fine and valid, not really a rebuttal in any way to my point.
“As a person who’s not liked this pairing and moreso not liked how it’s went down at all”
— you, six minutes before posting this comment
I’d say “which is the trying dot gif”, but I think your other comments make it pretty clear you don’t actually like any of the characters or ships. Fantasizing about the “perfect spiritual comeuppance” being Becky seducing Joe and Walky while acknowledging briefly that that would make Dina collateral damage but completely ignoring the creepsauce that is hoping a lesbian will have healing sex with two men is uh. Uh. Something.
“Real answer? Obviously this will never happen, but the ultimate spiritual consequence to this, punishing characters both in and out of universe, is Becky seducing Joe AND Walky out of sheer self-immolating spite. This at last gets through to and breaks Joyce (and incidentally Dina’s in pretty bad shape), Sarah isn’t talking to anybody but Joe at this point (though she tells him he’s being an idiot), and Dorothy watches in horror as its all falling apart and she can fix none of it because this time shes at the heart of the chaos.”
Far be it for my imprecise quoting to leave anyone with the impression that you didn’t say exactly these words, especially since if that comment gets enough attention it’ll definitely be reported into oblivion lol.
It really does seem like one of the bigger drivers of conflict continues to be people conflating “I do(n’t) like this ship”, “I do(n’t) like the storyline around the ship”, “I think the writing/pacing/etc could(n’t) be better in this storyline/ship”, and “I think Willis (should)/(is not obligated to) do something about it” as though those positions are always in alignment when it’s clear they’re not.
Fair.
I do think that talking about wishing the story were doing something different here also brings with it some of that context, even if the commenter didn’t mean for it to. You know? We know Willis can see everything we’re saying here, so it’s not the same thing as venting on one’s own tumblr or bluesky account, or taking it to the Reddit or the Discord.
I’ll try to keep that more in mind, but obviously a lot of things have been eating me at once around these parts. All the more reason to take a break. (Which I AM doing, just… kinda making a last round of replies for a bit. 🙂 )
Billie and Ruth was a mess, but it never had the colatteral damage that Joyce and Dorothy had.
What collateral damage? Becky’s upset by Joyce being into girls, but not her. Walky’s sad that Dorothy broke up with him again.
Joe may wind up being sad, but currently is in limbo.
The difference is Billie and Ruth, while a selfish disaster, was actually interesting to watch because the narrative understood it was a selfish disaster. This time around it’s supposed to be something we are meant to see as great when it’s (rightly) being seen by many in the audience as a selfish inconsiderate thing. That’s why the first one worked and this one doesn’t.
Re-read Halloween. I think you might be surprised by what the narrative actually said about Billie and Ruth as a couple.
I love these dumb problematic women!!!!!! <3
Well…*fans self*
Hot damn
Sure, but what’s Ruth up to?
Self-immolating, if her words can be trusted.
That’s hot.
Ba dum tss.
How do you manage to consistently have such excellent gravatars omg
Yeah, I made this one a few years ago, when that image of Billie was new. Or maybe it was Ruth. Whichever source panel is newer.
It’s good. Great. Amazing. Space
This is an unholy Dorothy, I’m sending her back to the top bunk where she belongs
Dumbing of Age Book 16: See NOW We’re At The Precipice of Hanky-Panky
Grant you, I don’t know if alt-text can qualify for a book title.
Now Sarah comes in and raises hell.
Man that other shoe is about to drop with a vengeance isn’t it?
What could possibly happen? Dorothy doesn’t care about anyone but herself and Sarah was the only person who could maybe bother Joyce and the plot shrugged that off like it was nothing. There’s no shoes to drop. There are no real consequences.
We get it, you want Dorothy pecked to death by crows. 🙄
Which species of crow? Why crows and not Ravens?
Maybe the birds don’t like shoes dropping.
Oh, Clif has a point, don’t scare away the corvids with dropping shoes, please set them nicely to the side.
Never be mean to corvids. Like, for all the normal reasons you shouldn’t be mean to anything, sure. But also, they will remember and they will get you.
This is such a weird leap. Yknow what would be nice? Someone anyone telling them hey how you’ve gone about this is shitty and it sticks. Sarah wad the closest to that and we just kinda…moved on?
I care less that Joyce and Dorothy are together that was inevitable. It’s specifically how it’s happened again via cheating which was unnecessary, how it has disrupted everyone around them and they just kinda don’t care and we apparently aren’t either
Now that would be a quite the twist.
Not a good one, but a big one.
Good. There shouldn’t be consequences for queer women finally getting to meaningfully explore their queerness beyond abstract hypothetical thought experiments, even if it makes the men sad.
>two women kissing
>how can I make this about a man’s feelings
In my defense the comment i was replying to was also doing that.
Yes, that was the idea.
I know you’re rarely entirely serious, but it is this kind of thing that leads to the “It’s okay because queer/lesbian” posts.
It’s not anyone’s job to avoid making comments that trigger weirdos. People can be excited to see queer women exploring their queerness without being punished for that specifically, even if it makes a man sad. That’s actually a super reasonable take.
“It’s okay because it’s lesbians” is an unimaginative caveperson slam at people who are enjoying the queerness and not as bothered by the “moral failings” of cartoon characters. It’s silly, and no one should be worrying about their opinions beyond laughing at it when it comes up.
“It’s not anyone’s job to avoid making comments that trigger weirdos.”
I mean, it’s true that it’s not my job, but I also don’t want to be pilloried by weirdos, and that’s what the meta-game of this comment section has evolved into: “How can I have a substantive discussion about the interesting narrative about mentally-ill teenagers, without accidentally triggering anybody’s existing trauma, and ending up defending myself against accusations of bigotry or abuse?”
At some point, you could always go with “occasionally snark about how much splash damage there is around here, mostly just talk to people whose opinion you respect.”
If you want to or feel pushed to take pains to step around feelings, that’s absolutely your prerogative. I was specifically responding to someone suggesting “x comment is why y people have hilariously bad takes” cause I think it’s silly to blame the person showing love to queer couples for the people who complain about queer couples.
No, what leads to those posts is deeply held personal insecurities manifesting outward, coupled with a refusal to comprehend what others have actually said, purely because it may be uncomfortably nuanced and have more than one layer. I’ll joke like everyone else, and if somebody wants to decide I’m dead serious when I say “I’m going to force femme Richard Nixon” (look it up), that’s their own choice and they’ve made it deliberately.
+1 for force-femming Richard Nixon, at least.
FWIW it’s a shame that anybody ever disagrees with you in these comments, because most of the things you say are as dead-accurate to the truth of things as this post here is.
“A man”
Y’all keep saying that like I’m worried about how Danny will feel.
It’s Joe. It’s a person. Not “a man”.
Unless there was a secret transfem or enbyJoe arc i was unaware of, Joe would still in fact be a man.
Enby Joe of Arc could be a fun comic.
My point is “a”. Like it could be anyone. It’s dehumanizing.
It could be any man, that’s kind of my point. The fact Joe is a man is important to the context of the narrative. Joe could be a total sweetheart for all i care but him continuing to date Joyce and Joyce breaking ul with Dorothy to stay with him would still be forcing herself to repress her attraction to women for the sake of her relationship with a man.
Hey as a bi person I. Kind of don’t like the way you keep framing this.
A bi person isn’t ’emotionally killing themselves’ by choosing to date — or at least consider — the ””opposite gender”’, even in the wake of a personal revelation of themselves.
Yeah, this is a bad take Big One. Bi women in relationships with men are not necessarily repressing their attraction to women or enbies any more than bi women in relationships with women are repressing their attraction to men or enbies, etcetc. You get it.
If you’re bisexual and monogamous, you do generally end up with one gender (unless you’re lucky and get yourself a genderfluid person who shifts around).
By The Big One’s logic, only demiromantic demisexuals can ever be in monogamous relationships.
Personally, that’s what Joe really is to me, in this story. A man. I don’t see him as The Main Guy™, the Important Boyfriend™, none of that, he’s just one of the characters who’s a man, to me. From my point of view, calling him “a man” isn’t dehumanizing, it’s only admitting that’s his gender.
That bothers me greatly.
They’re correct to do so.
I mean, not to get Personal on a Comics chat, but i feel you brother. My local queer group has started a passive-aggressive purge against trans men using similar rhetoric that i’ve been seeing become more common all over the internet, so.
Idk man. I feel a bit of solidarity with you.
It probably shouldn’t be bothersome to admit Joe’s a man and, by implicit extension, that men are constantly getting women’s narratives rewritten to focus on their male feelings and viewpoint. Way I see it, Dorothy’s a woman, Joyce is a woman, Joe is a man, and we’re focusing on the two women right now.
There’s no greater diminishment of men happening in my posts, I’m not saying “Men aren’t important at all” or “Men are bad because they’re men” or anything in that genre. There’s no purge happening, either. I’m literally just admitting Joe is a man, because that’s the gender he’s written with. I don’t need to say legal name every time I mention him in passing.
*his legal name
@Taffy
At the very least in my comment, i was worded something badly. When i said ‘similar ehetoric’ i was thinking a lot more broadly about things i’ve seen pop up in the comments and not specifically your comment. It badly muddled what I was even trying to communicate, probably.
Sorry.
Like for real i let a personal frustration that’s been brewing over othercircumstances boil over into a convo with only the faintest of tangental links, that’s my bad.
No skin off my nose. I figure we’re all just having a conversation.
Forgetting that Joe wasn’t “just a man” to Joyce? They spent a very long time getting to know each other before finally dating, and it was all Joyce deciding he meant something to her. Deciding that in the context of the narrative Joe is “just a man” is ultimately removing some of Joyce’s agency to decide who she loves. She isn’t obligated to love only one gender now that she has opened up to that possibility.
What’s a story without consequences? Just boring fanfiction. I trust that Willis would not allow his comic to turn into that.
Anyway there are consequences not only for men. They made Becky cry. Did you forget about her?
You think fanfiction doesn’t have consequences? You gotta start reading better fanfiction lmao.
They didn’t MAKE Becky cry. Becky’s emotions are totally valid and absolutely not Joyce or Dorothy’s fault. They care and feel guilty because they love her and are her friends, but they don’t deserve “consequences” which I assume here means “negative ones” for being in love in a way someone wishes they weren’t.
Seconding “you need to read better fanfiction”.
Seconding the part about Becky too, really.
Real answer? Obviously this will never happen, but the ultimate spiritual consequence to this, punishing characters both in and out of universe, is Becky seducing Joe AND Walky out of sheer self-immolating spite. This at last gets through to and breaks Joyce (and incidentally Dina’s in pretty bad shape), Sarah isn’t talking to anybody but Joe at this point (though she tells him he’s being an idiot), and Dorothy watches in horror as its all falling apart and she can fix none of it because this time shes at the heart of the chaos.
What on earth are you even talking about?
That’s Ending E. You have to go a little out of your way to get to it, but not all that far really. If I recall, you need to miss with the frisbee in Chapter 4, forget Mike’s order during the Taco Bell event, and fail to distract Mary at some point. Might be a couple other steps, it’s been a few years since I did it.
If there is a giant flower or playable characters who are anime girls in setting-discordant lingerie at ANY point, I’m out.
I get the anime strippers, but what’s with the flower?
The last thing I played with that many endings were the Nier series, and suffice to say one of them has at least one ending with an inexplicable giant flower.
(addenda:
– obviously, Nier also contains a lot of setting-inappropriate lingerie
– I recognize the flower is explicable if you’ve played a lot of other games to their true ending, I was riffing on a thing
– I should play more visual novels)
Y’all may find this interesting, irl developments at IU related to the paper
https://www.idsnews.com/article/2025/10/ids-print-indiana-university-daily-student-fired-newspaper
Damn. Can’t say I’m surprised. So much of that going around.
Ohio State is making noise about doing it to their student paper s well.
Two of the most storied and prestigious student papers in the country.
Damn, that sucks. They’re right to be pissed, and to stand their moral ground.
Yeah, I guess Daisy’s photo was too hot for the front page
Thank you for sharing!
The (actual) ongoing attack on the free press and free speech in the U.S. is as awful as it is alarming, and we all need to help fight back.
The school seems to be defending this as a finical matter – the school was subsiding the news paper as it was failing to make sufficient advertising revenue to cover the cost of printing. Maybe they are in the right. However personally, I find this suspicious. Foremost, if this was merely a matter of affordability, why only cut printing in its totality after the staff protested the removal of actual news (as opposed to home coming themes, and other vapid things that could never make the university look bad)? If the university was simply saying they no longer had the budget to support the printed paper, there should have been no discussion of its content. Secondly, while it may make finical sense to discontinue the printed paper (I can’t see their books or projections), I don’t think it can possibly be a clear cut matter of if the paper makes a return in advertising dollars, as a school news paper is an educational tool and investment. Even at a loss a strong and independent school news paper attracts prospective paying journalist students and higher quality candidates that might go onto win awards and raise the school’s reputation and thus askable tuition fees.
My mother’s a journalism teacher and this to me looks a lot like what happened under a previous principle – the school higher ups censoring stories to conceal their inadequacies in management and to try to turn the paper into a personal propaganda tool they could use to try to polish the school’s image without improving conditions and thereby gain an easy promotion for themselves. Screw the kids being cheated out of a real taste of investigative journalism and an solid education, they were on their way to bigger better things.
Yeah, it’s clearly a control development. Item-specific editorial control isn’t possible, it seems, because uppity democracy-insistence. So outright shutting down the entire thing is the next step in the media consolidation and control playbook.
Daaaaamn.
I guess the comic exists quite down our time, when everything became better again and the USA fascism was stomped down once more.
Or an alternate timeline, where the American public wasn’t dumb enough to fall for a failed used-car salesman again.
Geez. If I was a billionaire, I’d fund their paper copy out of pure contrariness.
damn it, Daisy
Thanks for giving me super-diabetes with this comic, Willis.
where doing it man.
where MAKING THIS HAPEN
I warned you about— yeah can’t think of a pun, sorry. My brain is too busy having flashbacks
[Suddenly, from nowhere, music begins to fill the air]
🎶 Love lift us up where we belong, where the eagles cry
On a mountain high
Love lift us up where we belong, far from the world
We know, up where the clear wind blow 🎶
Seeing you
Seeing me
Plays “Standing on the Verge of Getting It On” on the hacked muzak
Is it at the moment Dina comes in, taps for two blue mana, and counters.
Nah, taps for WU, casts Dina’s Veto, so it can’t be countered back 😛
We’re reaching levels of gayness never reached before.
No, don’t take the foot off the pedal.
Slipshine! Slipshine!!
They’re in love, your honour
Aww 🙂
I have made a personal decision: I have decided that I am now hardcore shipping Joe/Danny/Sal. This should satisfy all parties: the Joe-likers, the people who still hate Joe for his prior misogynistic acts and would prefer him to be with people who will ensure he never does that again, the polycule likers, the dude-likers, the people looking for simultaneously non-toxic non-cheating and preferably non-M/F bisexual rep, and the people who believe Sal 100% deserves a wealth of hot loving guys at her feet at all times i.e. the Correct Opinion-Havers.
All of which are also me, so, like, I’m pretty sure this needs to happen, if only in fanfiction that I don’t have to write myself.
Also Joyce is basically the corniest fucking thing ever when she’s in love and it’s adorkable and precious even as I simultaneously cringe. So there’s that. Love it and hate it, it’s really, really Joyce-like.
I think you dropped your crown and “100% Correct” sash. I want this polycule very much, and I’ve definitely thought Joe and Danny would be amazing together but had not considered the Sal addition and that really sets it off perfectly!
It even works as either a V-with-Sal-hinge or a straight-up triad, depending on how much you believe Joe might or might not be bi!
(or, for that matter, how much you believe Danny might be an egg)
It would certainly be an interesting way to pick up the thread of Joe’s implicit bias towards trans women for his best friend to transition and suddenly be irresistibly attractive to him
Unironically I would LOVE this story (especially if it continues the trend of Joe Improvement ™ and doesn’t end up triggering anyone with his learning process).
real question, between FemDanny and NBDanny, which is more likely, but also, which has the highest potential for comedy?
I just fell in love with NBDanny, because their gender would be NBD, for No Big Deal
You know what, I like the way you think, I’ll board this train. It’s been six months since we’ve seen Danny and nearly a year since we’ve seen Danny interact with his roommate/best friend. It’s weird to say since he was never high on my list of characters I liked (I didn’t dislike him, he was just secondary in my head), but I miss the goober.
Wow, this is a really funny comment for me to have made with my Ethan avatar.
Yeah, I’m just not going to be able to enjoy any of this while Joyce is keeping Dorothy in the dark about the poly stuff :/
Also, maybe calm down with all the “from the moment I met you” and “where you were always meant to be type comments until it’s been more than 12 hours since you gave someone else a BJ. I realize that kind of romanticizing is completely in character for Joyce (or really most 18 year old girls in new love, probably) so I’m criticizing the character not the author here, but still.
next
– “Joyce, why am I tied to the bed?”
– “this is where you belong…”
Lol whut ok
Haha romance love stuff
What year is it that I’m seeing people complain about cute girls doing cute girl stuff?
Weird!
Don’t act like we don’t like BeckyxDina and these revulsion aren’t based on the girls in question being shitty
lol, “shitty”.
They have been really ethical in the whole 24-28 hour time period, since they suddenly discovered they love one another.
Exactly! Becky & Dina is one of my favorite couples. Joyce & Dorothy just makes me feel empty.
My love of cute girls doing cute stuff is why this feels particularly bad. Like eating a decadent chocolate cake and slowly realizing you don’t like how it tastes.
(This metaphor only works if you like chocolate as much as I do.)
A decadent white chocolate cake, perhaps?
Oh, ffs, is this HERSHEY’S? (chocolate snobbery, ahoy!)
Oh, a decadent white chocolate cake does sound lovely to me.
Fair, but lots of people who like standard chocolate dislike white chocolate. 🙂 And probably also vice versa.
I picked it because white chocolate is totally fine, perhaps unlike Hershey’s chocolate haha, but if you were hoping for regular chocolate, it can be an unpleasant disappointment.
awwwwwwwwww
“That’s where you belong — Here in my bed”. Joyce still not beating the dom allegations, I see
Oh not at all no way. Joyce is totally the dom. She just doesn’t know it yet.
. Awwwww, that was sweet a nice distraction.
If only there wasn’t a growing social dumpster fire that will inevitably turn into a conflagration consuming most of the core cast, reminding this reader that the world outside the comic is already a multi-layered socio-economic-political conflagration that’s caused considerable damage, not just to my life but to hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of others. I pray for deliverance, but there is no god or gods, just the void that stares back, laughing at me as my life continues to crumble around me.
Hope dies.
Maybe three other characters total are gonna give a shit about this after a couple of days, ya fuckin’ doomer.
lmfao this is so silly
It would be silly if it wasn’t true.
lmao okay silly 💕
I cant tell if your being patronizing, mean, lighthearted or just patronizing and mean not but life is in such a horrible place it gets really hard to tell. 🫥
I like that both options have “mean” in them. Seems like a super good faith conversation you’re trying to have here.
You’re having a hard time, that’s fine, but you come here and dump it into a comment section of silly sarcastic people and then call me mean and another person shallow for not reacting the way you think they should. I was being silly and sarcastic, if you want to take that as mean, that’s something you can totally do.
You’re right i am being over-senstive. In retrospect i shouldnt have said anything to begin with other then approving of the cute scene. I shouldnt have posted my trauma sorry about the whole thing.
Yep, that’s a whole lot of stuff I didn’t say.
It could also just help to be more… plain? about it. It took a couple times reading it to even be clear where you were swerving away from the comic and talking real-world, which was most of it. Then the language you used… well, it certainly seemed aligned with what people use when *wanting* to invoke the jokey nihilism of the internet.
Not to say you were being over the top, fucking hellscape, but clarity here probably would have gotten more empathizing with what you were talking about/feeling.
@Yumi yes the comedic nihilism was not as clear i admit it did bleed through to my real life but yes you are very much correct i could have been more clear.
@Nymph I am sorry i wasnt clear in what i meant. i was out of line for saying you were being mean and jumping down the other persons throat i was being overly sensitive i probably should have phrased it better:. “You’re right, i am being overly-sensitve to folks. I shouldn’t have acted the way i did lashing out it was wrong. Yumi was correct to point out i wasnt clear not just in my intial post i also express regret for posting my own trauma into the commeng section and then lashing out when folks posted jokes
Thank you for re-explaining. I really do hope your day gets better from here, or at least gets neutral for you.
Thank you again sorry for this debacle.
Nymph… I think that was just them being sincere? They weren’t saying you said that.
Sir, this is a Wendy’s.
Eat at Arby’s.
Glad my pain’s a punchline for you. Must be nice to live without depth
Sorry you dodnt deserve that reaponse, i was over senstive.
I DON’T TRUST WILLIS
SOMEONE’S DYING THIS WEEK I CAN FEEL IT
Maybe just a little death?
As a treat.
How about multiple little deaths?
That’s…. hilarious. 😛
(A rock falls, both of them die)
No regrets
Needs more comedy. Guess i’m not a fan of saccharine bullshit.
I went for the gay horse magnet in the kickstarter but I wish Willis had kept their original expressions. Cause it was funnier.
WILLIS YOU NEED TO MAKE FUNNIER MAGNETS
LOVE!!!
Also, new book title: “…it’s where you belong.”
Can we go back to angst. I liked angsty Dorothy. Ew happy Dorothy? Boringgggg.
“I want to torture the queer woman for no reason”
Least homophobic Jorothy hater
Enjoying angst doesn’t make someone homophobic. That’s kind of a serious accusation to make of a stranger who hasn’t commented on the sexualities of these characters at all. Plus, liking angst isn’t even remotely the same as wanting a character to be tortured…
I wish I could enjoy this moment, but their shitty behavior towards a whole bunch of other characters while getting together has kinda made that impossible for me.
We trash goblins rejoice in your suffering.
right there with you, although in a vacuum this is definitely something I would want someone to say about me!
sesbian lex incoming
aw yiss
i see the weird snipes are starting.
I’ve never tried hunting for weird snipes. Are they any different?
Yuuuup. With some new flavors of the same old “if you disagree with me you are Bad”.
🙃
“are those little hearts over your head?” “…yeah. little hearts.”
also if you’ve experienced what joyce is talking about here then you know exactly what she’s talking about
and if you haven’t
there’s still time, good luck fam, go find it
and that’s my serving of cheese for today, enjoy
next week i’m bringing out the limburger
Mmm. Limburger.
(Copying the comment I left on the patreon yesterday, because I have THOUGHTS I wanna share):
So is this what’s going to cause the downfall of Joyrothy? Joyce thinks Dorothy “belongs up here”, in her bed, but her bed is a tiny island of solitude and privacy from the world that they have to live in most of the time. Once they have to be together in public, without the driving force of pent-up horniness that’s carried them through today, and interact with the world at large in ways beyond shouting their new relationship from the rooftops, are we going to see cracks?
Because… there has to be a downfall at some point, right? Even setting aside the terrible way they got together, the buildup to this point has been years (our time) / months (comic time) of Joyce putting Dorothy on an impossible pedestal, while Dorothy infantilises and condescends to Joyce (in a way that’s especially grating since Joyce’s autism diagnosis). Dorothy was still infantilising and condescending to Joyce as recently as this morning, telling her that her definitions of sex & meaningful milestones were things to be scorned and corrected. There’s no way all this groundwork leads to a healthy, lasting romance, and I’m impatient to get to the “gloriously dramatic implosion” part of the story.
Let queer women be happy for once.
We had Becky and Dina back home, but y’all got greedy!
Ah, yes, the one singular F/F couple in the series that didn’t end in heartbreak until Jorothy. How insatiably greedy of us to want more than one thing.
To be fair, I think *every* couple in the comic has ended in heartbreak except for Danny and Sal; everyone else is either kinda toxic or has only been dating for like a week.
Charlie and Carla are still going strong!
As are Marcie and Malaya. Which is at least saphic adjacent.
And Becky and Dina.
All of the characters you just listed except for Becky and Dina (which is clearly being set up for self-destructive angst anyway) are barely relevant side characters we haven’t actually seen in months.
I mean…thats true of every straight ship too?
Sal and Danny are together and barely appear.
Jacob and Lucy barely appear anymore.
I legit only just now remembered Tony existed.
Oh yeah mary has that boyfriend sometimes. Ew.
Oh and Jason and Ruth. Which I can hardly tell if they’re together or just fucking.
Speaking of just fucking, Ethan and Asher. Who fill the qualifier of not a lesbian couple.
Also I totally forgot the Sierra grace Mandy polycule for the lesbian side.
So yeah. Mostly just side characters or tertiary characters nobody cares about.
Straight people are not an underrepresented minority at a societal level. Lesbians are.
Ah. We’re not really talking about the comic. Okie doke.
This is a genuinely weird thing to say, even as a joke.
No it isn’t. I’m tired of our only representation in this comic being self-destructive angst fuel.
If you check the comment chain, you’ll find I was replying to Josh.
Sorry, I don’t mean to be snippy. The layout does make it tough to tell who’s replying to whom sometimes!
Seconded.
Joyce is about to fall off the unicorn and Dorothy can’t save her, you mean?
“fell off the unicorn” sounds like fantasy-novel in-universe slang for “started drinking [presumably mead] again”
I am going to steal that comment and present it without context to the wider universe. =)
Girls please, take your glasses off
As somebody who has lived with glasses since I was six years old, this!
As someone who is effectively blind without my glasses (and for a few reasons, I can’t wear contacts), sorry girls, but the glasses stay on during sex. 😛
Glasses are sexy.
*nods in sympathy regarding fragile visual equipment
UuuUUuuuGggh! Cut to Sarah!
Only if its cut to Joyce slowky reminding Sarah that she grew up in a hyper right wing Christian fundie household that forced Joyce to repress her attraction to women, and now she’s finally being able to explore that side of herself.
Y’know I’d take that too honestly. These two hamming it up is like scratches on a chalkboard to me so I’ll even take soapbox!Joyce, yes.
Its not really soapboxing its just providing context for why she’s behaving the way she does.
shh, no spoiler
oh
If everyone feels exactly the same about the way a story goes, it can’t be much of a story. I realize everyone who disagrees with my personal opinion on this storyline is a homophobic bierasing antiliberation victim of internalized toxic monogamy, but those people are still entitled to their reactions and opinions.
There’s not a single person on Earth who knows what you mean by this, including you.
Seconding “Buddy, wtf are you talking about?”
This is a case of sarcastic humor.
I see. Musta been forged in an Arizona summer.
You certainly put some words together! Excellent job!
Wait… is Dorothy’s f*ckin’ shoes Still On?! (I can’t quite tell)
If so, this is a freakin’ outrage!
I’m hoping it’s just socks
This is gonna turn into a slipshine before we see any real action, isn’t it?
Women in love.
Perfect.
Joyce, having had one (1) sexual encounter with joe; “I’m on top.”
No, no, she’s _twice_ as experienced as that. She’s had two (2) sexual encounters. So worldly; so expert!
(one time he fingered her; one time she fellatioed him)
Didn’t she also manually handle his private parts? That makes three!
She has also done mutual masturbation with Dorothy. So much experience!
Yes, you’re right! I totally forgot that! (so unfair of me; sorry Joyce!)
She is three (3) times as experienced and worldly now with Joe.
But only one (1) time with Dorothy.
Such imbalance; totally unequal!
Something should be done about that!
(oh wait here we are how nice glad they’re cooperating in this redress)
I like the split between people on this, this is what I wanted.
Are the comments more or less at the proportion of 53% “moar lezzes kizzez” and 47% “oh no you hoez get consekwensez!”?
Idunno.
Tribalized parties ripping into each other and getting riled up by trolls used to be (slightly) more fun a few years ago.
Come to think about it: Wasnt all that much fun back then either. But it got even less so.
This is going to be so much funnier when they’re in the afterglow and Joyce tells Dorothy “Great news, Joe says you can share me!” and she goes “….what” because she doesn’t want to share, she wants to possess her by herself.
Dorothy will make an excellent organizer for the growing polycule. Post-it notes, spreadsheets (spread the sheets…hur hur hur), and Google Calendar. She’ll keep those chaotic college kidz in line.
I feel like if Dorothy is at all poly inclined(doubt), she’ll be more likely to react by saying “Why tf did I need to break up with Walky if you didn’t break up with Joe? Wait, I didn’t even really break up with him, you did it for me.”
Same. I doubt she would be up for it.
But yeah. If Joyce gets to keep her wall of tall, dark and handsome, Dotty gets to keep her caramel candy low-upkeep relaxboi.
Polycule by spreadsheet however sounds even more stressful than people seem to usually manage it. By constant drama and makeup sex.
I somehow doubt that Walky would want to do this a second time.
You are probably correct.
But never underestimate a horny young mans willingness to suffer for nookie.
Especially when he has bad self-esteem and imagines himself to be devil-may-care type.
I agree it would be really bad for him tho.
Seeing him reject that proposal (and the fallout) might appease some of the comment section, though.
Polycule by spreadsheet sounds fine to me (I’m polyamorous) we mostly manage it via shared google calendar, though.
Yeah, that was one of the first thing I learned about polycules 10+ years ago. “Google Calendar is a polyamorous lifeline” or something like that.
So I guess we’re still not telling Dorothy that she didn’t fully break-up with Joe? Alright then.
It’s been one day. Dorothy needs to find out in like a week when Joyce kisses him in front of her for maximum drama impact.
I like the way you think
The title of the next book is a preview of this sittuation :O
Normally this would be really adorable to me and I’d quite enjoy today’s strip, but I hate the way that Joyce and Dorothy got together so it’s just . . . bleh.
Yep… same.
Then Daisy storms into the room yelling: “My sesbian lex senses are tingling. Where is the action? Is that a cuck chair I can sit on?!!”
THIS IS THE CUTEST FUCKING THING.
Wonderful! Beautiful! This is perfect, no notes. I’m so happy for them!
I feel like I’m crazy. I see a lot of folks getting mad that Joyce hasn’t told Dorothy they’re in a poly relationship, but….didn’t Joyce not confirm anything? Essentially puting Joe’s offer on hold? Until she actively decides and/or does something with Joe isn’t it kind of nebulous? Like Joe might hold out hope that they don’t break up but while comic language might suggest it’s inevitable it doesn’t feel like a betrayal of Dorothy to be like “hey Joe wants us to be together and still be a part of my romantic life, are you OK with that?” “No” “OK I’ll let him know I decided against it then” would be a fair enough way for things to go down. (No comment on everything else though)
As someone who has read your comics since Roomies!, this has been such a wild ride to this point. Such a monumentous moment story arc in the comic. Loving every moment of it, Willis. It’s wonderful how the characters grow, develop, and change over time.
Man. I just love them both so much, it’s really nice to see Joyce being able to say this kind of sweet, sappy thing to Dorothy outright and without shame or excuses.
I’m not sure that shame has ever been in Joyce’s vocabulary where Dorothy is concerned. Self-denial, maybe, ignorance to her true feelings, sure, I’ll agree to that, but she’s never been particularly ashamed in her effusive praise and admiration of Dorothy.
https://bsky.app/profile/damnyouwillis.bsky.social/post/3m3ghekvvm226
Noooo I was supposed to ruin your mom jokes!
These comments are giving me a “are we the baddies?” moment… I prefer JoJo to JoDo but the entirely unhinged comments from my side of the fence are making me wonder if there’s some fundamental flaw in that preference.
oof that’s relatable. I love both ships but hate how this all went down, and after reading enough comments I’m starting to wonder if even THAT relatively milquetoast position says something deeply and indelibly awful about me as a person.
As a card carrying member of the other side of the fence: you’re both fine, and we’ve had a few weirdos, too.
It’s just that the specific circumstances (where two queer women did material harm to two straight men) ALSO happens to provide bigots some cover for their bigotry, and some of them arr taking advantage of it.
It doesn’t make Joe/Joyce a bad ship and it definitely doesn’t make you two bad people for preferring it. You’re fine. 🙂
*are, but feel free to imagine all of this coming from Danny in a pirate costume if it helps in any way
Honestly thinking of Willis’ stated inention of thinking about classic They’re Just Sooo So Close Besties Is All Teehee sitcom duos who couldn’t/would never get to just. Be Gay. And I can’t lie this makes me real happy, despite the (totally normal and Fun because I Like well written Messy Romance/Slice of Life Genre Drama, It’s Why I Read This) Messiness.
I realize now my earlier comment about “Dorothy needs to find out in like a week when Joyce kissed Joe in front of her” is a whole lot less likely than “Dorothy finds out when Sarah comes back tonight and asks if they did the breaking up and Joyce says she didn’t have to because Joe was cool with it.”
Walky, tho, I didn’t like seeing him up here
with youThat is a very real feeling. The first girl I ever fell very deeply for was laying in my bed, we’d already been broken up for probably 2 years, and you know that scene a little while back with Alice biting her hand? It was like that.
We didn’t end up doing anything of the sort in today’s strip, and we successfully stayed broken up until we drifted away from one another, but the feeling of her actually being in my bed was VISCERAL. Mind you, this was a long distance relationship and I’d only ever gone to visit her due to work vacation and money being in my favor, so it was a new feeling.
But I understand Joyce’s feelings here on a deep level.