Jennifer is on a whole other level of bi denial, one that I don’t think anyone can get to without being her specific level of in denial about a lot of things lol
I think Jennifer is just a case of “rules for thee, not for me” thing. She has no problems with gender identities or anything, she just can’t accept HERSELF as being ‘different’ from her own self-made image.
honestly i would be weirdly fascinated to understand how billiefer arrived at this strange level of denial. it is mind boggling how complete and total it is.
I wanted to reply directly to StClair but it’s beyond the point that the buttons go away.
The reason why is, she’s a rich girl who could never get the amount of attention a child deserves from her rich, status-obsessed parents. As a result, she’s a black hole for external validation, and needs to do everything she can to reinforce within herself the idea that she’s sitting atop her social hierarchy; partly to replace the love she never got, and partly because she thinks adhering to this idea of success might someday impress her folks.
This is also, presumably, where her constant rash decisions and acting out come from: the only way she can ever get her parents attention, is when they show up to bail her out of a crisis.
It’s not *really* that complicated. She has a narcissistic sense of superiority to everyone that isn’t exactly the person she thinks she is, therefore any admission that she is different from what she thought she was involves stepping down from the pedestal she puts herself on. But she does actually know, on some level, that she isn’t that, and that she’s better off not being that, and she kinda hates the self that she holds up as superior, which means she’s in a superposition of hating herself and loving herself and Y’know know that I think about it maybe it is that complicated.
Joyce: I’m not gay – not like, really gay-gay. Because I’m not into girls…I’m only into Dorothy. I’m exclusively Dottysexual.
Me: O, honey… that is still so very, wonderfully, beautifully gay. ❤
yeah it’s gay pride not gay shame. tho i can understand her being dorothy sexual even tho she has a sorta mild unconscious attraction to billy/sal. Altho i wonder how many ppl would ship billiefer/joyce b/c that would be its own disaster XD
I feel like even a brief relationship where Billifer is showered with unbounded affection by someone like Joyce could be a good thing for her, if she could learn to accept it. Not sure what Joyce gets out of the situation though, other than access to boobs, haha.
(I’m sure there’s something. I just can’t think of anything off the top of my head.)
all i ever want for my gay friends is to never hate themselves as much as i was taught to hate myself. the assumption that self discovery must be a painful one is the most tragic thing. in a world more sane than ours, discovery, self and otherwise, would be naught but wonder.
Only if this is one of the ones inserted into the established buffer, but I think those were pretty much the ones focused on Muslim characters. Either that, or Willis fully anticipated the reaction to the cheating aspect of the storyline.
Over on bsky, Willis gave us the script they wrote last winter break (away from computer, couldn’t draw it). So no, this isn’t an audience reaction thing.
Her problem is that she can’t think and exist socially at the same time. Thinking is for when you’re alone. When people are around, you have to default to the Rules For Existing Flowchart, which determines what objectively correct behavior she should be performing.
you have so perfectly summarized what so much of daily life feels like i am stunned. either you’re some kind of bodhisattva or you are capable of mind reading.
I’ve been asked “How are you?” and gave an answer other than “Fine,” which was evidently not on the Rules For Existing flowchart and triggered an Angry Other Person error.
Of course, we have to pretend to believe the little lies (being fine) if we want to stand a chance at pretending we still believe the big ones (meritocracy, freedom, prosperity, future)
I found it helpful when I decided that the “how are you / fine, you? / good, thanks” exchange is not an exchange of info at all, but it’s a social ritual. More like birds cawing at each other, not an actual check-in of how you are.
It means “hello, I see that you’re human! I am performing this ritual that makes most people I’ve ever met feel more comfy.” “Why yes, thanks for noticing. You too are a human, I see you.” “Yep we sure are humans. Social ritual complete! 🙂 ”
This way it makes sense, if you deviate too far from the ritual script, that some low-insight NTs could subconsciously think you’re implying “I refuse the social ritual! Perhaps I do not see you as a person, and/or perhaps I don’t care whether you’re comfy. So there!” Which would be a strange and hurtful idea, and they don’t even know they’re accusing you of implying such a thing, they just get annoyed and confused that the common ritual got broken.
(I have explanations like that, just ready to go, and yet somehow nobody ever figured out that I’m probably Autistic too)
@Gigafreak, same, and then later on in life when trying to account for that via flowchart been thrown off by the person actually caring and asking for elaboration, which isn’t in my flowchart.
@Leorale, a complemenary perspective is that they may also not be NT, they may be a different “category” of ND, or similarly ND but with a different spin on how they developed socially for whatever reason, that led to strict adherence to The Flowchart to survive socializing and having strong RSD-type reactions to being bumped off their flow(chart) (because I think a big factor in many cases of RSD is it’s a sudden change from knowing where you are to being lost. Like being in the wilderness and suddenly realizing your map is bad – although if I’m honest I might find that literal situation less dysphoric). Also, the flowchart is part of the mask and being unmasked can be unsafe, also just having ND doesn’t grant insightfulness (especially when in a social situation where the brain is fully occupied by performing a social), also I think it can be a trap to assume people with similar NDs have similar communication styles or that they can easily spot one another in social situations, as not everyone has the same mask – not saying you’re in disagreement with any of these things, just worth being said alongside what you said.
As a non-reply to anyone specific, if you’re highly reliant on the flowchart, please figure out a way to communicate clearly with your doctor (if you have one, sadly must be said) and people who actually do want to know and help and whom you can trust (if you have any, sadly must be said). And then tell me how lol 🥲. The healthcare machine is always looking for reasons to not treat you, and if you let it, it will absolutely use “how are you fine” as an excuse. Providers these days are often squeezed into 20 minute appointments and every single word counts, whether or not you’ve had time to warm up to the concept of communicating verbally with someone. Side note: also many providers seem to take “better” as “all good” which can lead to a quick “OK see you in six months”. I end up saying things like “less bad” when describing change in symptoms.
further clarification @Leorale I get what you’re saying is meant more as “survival in the NT world” not necessarily “assuming everyone is NT just because they have to know how to survive in the NT world”. But I think it can be a perspective that ND and NT people alike can take that can stymie understanding so it triggered my opinion dump.
I just am honest but brief. “Not great honestly, I hope you’re doing okay for the both of us” or “things are rough rn honestly” or something. For some reason throwing in the word “honest” seems to help, idk why anyone would *want* to be doing badly but w/e. I just got tired because lying is energy consuming for me and so I decided I no longer care about other people’s comforts when it comes to social rituals
@Dwampe Scorrigank — legit! ND people could also have a negative reaction to eschewing the ritual.
Plus I got to say “eschewing”.
@Airyu – “honestly” plus brevity would work, too! I can talk about why that works, but anyway, it does, and I’m glad you found a good way to save your energy.
The reverse would be pretty off-putting (unless you’re hot/charismatic). “Dishonestly, I’m fine! Totally lying through my teeth. You?”
I guess that’s the best explanation for why we saw none of this introspection about what her attraction to Dorothy means until now. I’m not sure that’s normally been a problem Joyce had? She’s worked through a lot of stuff while talking to others – especially Dorothy, but not only her.
Bi erasure with a bi character goin with male or female character in fiction always reminds me of the saying “its not a spider bite”.
Honestly, Joyce struggling with feeling like she’s not sure if being gay/bi/anything makes sense for her is probably the most relatable thing to this bi reader lol
In this case though, she doesn’t seem to be considering bi as an option. She’s gay, but not true gay. Which she partly seems to link to gays needing to be sad and tortured, but also because she’s only gay as a technicality, because of Dorothy.
I’m not sure she’s using gay in the exclusively lesbian sense here — she thinks Dorothy is the only person of the same gender that she has feelings for, so she’s not sure whether it’s okay to label herself “gay” (or “queer”, or “bisexual”) when she feels mostly straight. At least that’s how I interpret it?
Very common for people who start questioning their sexuality in adulthood. “I didn’t grow up stigmatized, and I don’t feel like a different person, so do I even have a right to this label?”
Joyce only started learning about the LGBT+ community within the last couple months, and has only meet Lesbians and her Trans sister, who were open enough to explain stuff to her. She might not KNOW what Bisexuality is, which would be a reason why she is going through this moment right now.
I didn’t know what Asexuality was till I was in my 20’s, and it fucking sucked up until that point not knowing what I was.
The only Bisexual character she interacts with on a regular basis is Billie, and Billie has been trying to “Play it straight” for a while now, she called her thing with Ruth a “Phase” at one point if I remember correctly. Joyce is also pretty bad at reading people and situations.
Joyce does know what bisexuality is on a theoretical level, and was even able to recite the definition to Dorothy at the drop of a hat, but she grapples with recognizing it in practice; remember, she ambushed Ruth and Jason in the cafeteria that one time because she thought Ruth was practicing comphet instead of just Being a Bisexual In Public.
Add that in with Joyce’s romantic tunnel vision/Romantic Object Pernanence problens, and it’s not surprising that she’s going straight (LOL) to “I Am A Big Gay Who Is All About Exclusively Smooching This Girl.” The idea of one’s sexuality extending outside one’s current partner is not one that she has historically grappled well with.
I think it’s also kind of related to her ironic statement of “this feels like cheating;” the whole reason Joe doesn’t feel like cheating, right now, is that from Joyce’s perspective, how could it be? She’s instinctively sublimated her prior reality, to fit the narrative that Dorothy is her One True Love And Soulmate, because to Joyce, if that’s not true, then she isn’t doing right by Dorothy, and she’s “doing being gay wrong.”
Even though, in the literal text, she clearly articulates after kissing Dorothy, that now she has a problem, which I think we all pretty much took to her and Dorothy mutually acknowledging (indirectly, and through subtext, but still) that they just cheated on their partners. AND, in the literal text, she presents this information to Joe as “now you have to break up with me, because I’m a hussy.”
Joyce has been vigorously trained from birth, that life is about satisfying a narrative that was made for her by an outside authority, and to immediately disregard any and all conflicting evidence that might complicate any of her prescribed narratives. That’s what she is doing, and has been doing. Every love she has, needs to be pure and formulaic in that storybook way, or from her perspective, she is doing it wrong, and letting her lover down.
She knows deep down that she cheated on Joe, knows deep down it was wrong, knows deep down that she isn’t “over” Joe, and knows deep down that she would be with him and Dorothy, if she was allowed to. What she can’t do, is actually put any of those feelings into context with her current situation, which is that Dorothy is her soulmate and her wife, and that fully loving her with her whole self, and doing so in perfect alignment with her conditioned expectations of that divine narrative, and anything that conflicts with that narrative, she’s naturally putting out of her mind, entirely.
Joyce literally cannot accept nuance, where her feelings and sense of self are concerned; she can comprehend nuance, and is actually quite good at nuance in any situation where she has no related anxieties and reasonable emotional distance; but, once it interferes with her idea of doing right by the most important person in her life? Full-scale avoidance of the highest degree. Those thoughts must be put out of the mind. They cannot be reckoned with, because entertaining them and their complexities, is a very short path to failing at performing her true love narrative for Dorothy.
She can’t actually wrap her head around the fact that she can have more than one person in her life at the top part of that hierarchy. Even though, right now, she obviously has several people in her life she would literally die for, on a whim. But she has no narrative framework for that, within her own experience of identity. When your whole self was brought up to be a servant of God first, and a servant of Spouse second, the idea that you have to prioritize anybody but the most important person in your life is just not going to come quickly or naturally.
Joyce was in college to find a spouse and now she has. That remains a throughline. She does have to deal with having found two but that’s all background.
I was going to say Joyce interacts with Ruth and Danny too, but the latter is barely and I don’t even know if Ruth would be considered ‘regular interaction’.
Also, I don’t think she sees either of those people as bisexual; she got really weird when Billie and Ruth later dated men, and I just don’t think she has any practical evidence that Danny is anything but straight, even though the readers know otherwise. This is a genuine blind spot from her, and her primary source of information on bisexuality, comes from a delusionally-confident, self-hating closeted bisexual who doesn’t acknowledge her own identity.
The first information anyone gets on a topic, sticks the hardest in their mind, and Joyce’s first exposure to ideas about bisexuality, fully came from a serial bi-eraser who directly implies that all straight women want to bang their female friends. So yeah, it’s unsurprising that she’s now struggling with this premise; like with many things she’s learned, Joyce was set up to fail from the start of her education.
Reciting the truth doesn’t mean you believe it. Lots of homeschooled fundie kids can, in fact, pass a basic college course that includes evolution as a topic–they just don’t accept the concepts consciously.
Plenty of stories about finding out the professor’s particular brand of bullshit a few weeks into the term, deciding it’s not worth arguing with them, and parroting it back to pass the class.
It’s interesting to look at the strip after that one and see why she has such a problem with fluid sexuality. Like Becky, she’s afraid that if sexuality can change, then the assholes like Toedad who want to turn people straight were actually right.
I think it’s more internal than that; Joyce is afraid that, if desire is fluid, then she will betray her spouse at some point in the future, and she can’t accept that not perfectly capping her fairy-tale romance is an actual possibility she could fuck up. Right now she has to be a lesbian, because that makes it harder for her to fuck up being with Dorothy – for instance, by wanting to be with a man, later. It’s also why her narrative was that Joe had to break up with her; she didn’t actually want to confront her feelings about breaking up with him, and whether she actually wanted that, but her narrative required them to be separate, to validate her now-undying fairy-tale love for Dorothy. Which must have always retroactively been true, because that’s how True Love works.
Conversely, you look at Becky, and she has relatively the same reaction, but for the opposite reason. Becky desperately needs desire to stay solid and consistent, because she comes at the premise from the fear of being abandoned. While Joyce needs it to be solid so Joyce doesn’t have to confront the possible fear of her doing wrong by her soulmate, Becky needs desire and presentation to be solid so that her partner won’t abandon her, or change in a way that makes her unable to stay their partner. Or, in the absolute most extreme sense, Becky needs desire to be solid, because if it isn’t, then she pretty much killed her whole family for nothing, didn’t she?*
I think the underlying reason for both of them coming at the connections and relationships so intensely, with such rigid parameters, is that for both women, their view on relationships with people are sublimated from what they learned earlier, which was from their relationship with God. Joyce saw God as an objective truth and real entity who she needed to perform eternal service to, and so once she came of the age where she would desire a relationship, she processes her relationship with her spouse as she did her relationship with God. Becky, on the other hand, saw God more as a means by which to bring a community together, and naturally treated God as a way to be connected to an in-group that wouldn’t abandon her, which explains her unwillingness to abandon Christianity, even after said in-group literally did abandon her.
So, while Joyce viewed her faith as an objective truth about reality, Becky views her faith as a bulwark against abandonment; thus, Joyce still comes
at her secular relationships from the same perspective of her fulfilling a sort of divine destiny, and her concern about “being gay wrong” is a downstream effect of her subconscious perspective that her romantic partner is her replacement for her relationship with God. While, Becky views her faith primarily through the lens of her deep-seated fear of abandonment, thus the self-fulfilling prophecy she has about the inevitability that she will make everybody abandon her. Which, then, makes her continued connection to Christ very appealing, since Christ is literally the only person who can’t abandon her.
* – obviously she fucking didn’t do this, I am speaking from Becky’s perspective. I can’t believe this is a detail I need to clarify, but here we are.
Oooh. I’d forgotten that interaction.
Interesting how Joyce immediately assumes that the only reason that Ruth could be with Jason is a fear of hell causing her to feign heterosexuality.
Gotta love some skilled foreshadowing.
Also gotta love Jason catching strays.
She was originally stubborn about accepting the reality of bisexuality, because she was in denial about her subconscious romantic feelings for Dorothy.
She is currently being stubborn about accepting the reality of bisexuality, because accepting that paradigm of reality right now, would in her mind threaten the integrity of her love for and devotion to Dorothy.
She went from bi-erasing to keep herself from accepting being gay, straight to bi-erasing out of latent shame that her lust for men makes her insufficiently gay, and therefore a failure as a lesbian life partner.
I think there’s like a 50/50 chance the storyline here is going to be Joyce ultimately confirming that she’s 100% gay, not bisexual, and never felt any physical attraction to Joe at all, just so that Willis can watch the comment section burn.
Even if Joyce does ‘confirm’ that she’s 100% homosexual gay, there is a LOT of actual evidence of Joyce being attracted to men, such that said confirmation would be for sure a lie in itself.
Right now Joyce is likely to insist that she is 100% homosexual gay and has never once, never ever ever even one time, been attracted to any dude, because being attracted to a dude means she’s betraying her PERFECT AND ETERNAL DESTINED FOREVER WIFE Dorothy.
But dudes who are atttractive to her do still exist, so she’ll have to figure it out eventually.
Except it kinda is from Willis too. Even in the alt-text few calls her “Sad, gay Joyce in the snow”.
I’m not king of the Bisexual (merely a freeholding lord), but it’s always off-putting to me when other bisexual people call themselves gay. It’s feels like a bit of self hatred meant to let one fit in weigh the other queer folk by denying heterosexual attraction.
It’s hard enough dealing with people thinking we’re fence sitters who need to pick a side/ are in denial without encouraging that in ourselves and others.
i as an ESL also tend to forget that “gay” is often used as an umbrella term in english. which, personally, infuriates my autistic brain because it’s inaccurate when gay can mean “wlw, mlm, non-binaries loving men/women/enbys, or everybody loving everybody“ OR it can mean “gay men and lesbians“ OR it can mean “only gay men”. THIS IS INFURIATING. we’ve reclaimed QUEER as an umbrella, so i always assume when i read gay it means mlm because *you could say queer or LGBTQIA+ if you mean everyone*
So…like, MOST people would probably have SOMEONE of their non “standard” attraction that they’d be interested in, wouldn’t they? That seems more…”normal but denied by the gender norms our society has set up” that really “bi”? But I have no idea.
I dunno about statistics, but some people are sexually/romantically repulsed by a gender or by body parts. Doesn’t have to be a phobic thing, their internal settings might just be rigid like that.
People are free to identify how they want, right? I’ve got a couple of friends who are Lesbians with an exception they are currently dating/married to. By that standard Joyce and Dorothy might be Straight with an exception or heteroflexible?
YES! This becomes especially important if a longterm partner comes out as trans. If the lesbian partner of a trans man decides to stay with him, it doesn’t suddenly make her gay or even bi (unless she says so), he might also be the unexpected exception. And it might be important for her to keep her lesbian identity, that’s not saying she doesn’t accept her partner being trans. “i’m a dyke and i happen to date a lovely queer man“ is a valid statement. <3
Absolutely! Like, if Joyce says she’s bi, she’s bi*. But “straight with an exception” is also valid without needing to insist she must be bi or gay,
*Well, if she was a real person. Since she’s fictional we can feel to critique her presented sexuality in a way that wouldn’t be appropriate for a real person.
Yeah, that’s just a family resemblance. They’re both girls (even if one of them didn’t know she was for a while), they’re both Browns, it’s not surprising that they have similar profiles.
Also weirdly this may be the happiest I’ve been about a Joyce strip for ages because oh man it’s a strip that’s not her being obnoxious and it’s actual character introspection?
But uh, sorry about your internal crisis Joyce. But more of this please
People have been wondering what happened to the “old Joyce” who was actually capable of great introspection, and made great points to Dorothy about her complex feelings around bad actions she had done in the past, based on her romantic intentions.
Well, it probably has something to do with her and Dorothy being in a codependency spiral for the last real world year of strips. Joyce hasn’t been freaking alone with her own thoughts for more than a few minutes, in I Don’t Even Know How Long, and I think that’s a requirement for her doing the up-front work.
It took her about thirty seconds away from Dorothy, to start actually processing guilt and shame related to how she’s been acting; yeah, she’s focusing on the wrong thing, but at her own first opportunity, she’s now beating herself up about how she’s doing this new obsession all wrong, and has to get better at it.
And, if we really want to diagnose her annoying codependency with, and repeated inappropriate proclamations of, her love for Dorothy…well, Joyce’s #1 example for How To Be a Lesbian is Becky. That’s who she’s been emulating, to shield herself from criticism of her actions, and her underlying bad feelings. It’s just the same damn coping mechanism for both of them.
I believe that’s why Joe hasn’t gotten an answer yet, nor has Dorothy gotten a heads up about whether it’s even on the table for Joyce. Joyce needs to figure it out for herself before she talks to either of them. That is, think about it herself, not ask Dorothy to tell her what to do or have Joe as her sounding board (not saying she couldn’t use a sounding board, I wonder if she knows any good gender studies teachers or their former-crush sidekicks? (not saying Robin is a good idea, but really can I doubt that she’d insert herself). If it might be a dealbreaker for her she does need to let Dorothy know soonish instead of letting her get attached while Joyce thinks about it. But on day 2 (or two days after the kiss, I don’t know when the technical start was, besides the beginning of time) when she hasn’t had a moment to think?
Speaking of day 2, I think it might be a little soon to call “codependecy”. They’re just having a honeymoon phase, give ’em some time to burn it out of their system. Although, I don’t actually know what you mean by “codependency” – I don’t think you mean the phenomenon of enabling a partner’s self-destructive behavior. If so can you explain further, if not can you clarify what you mean by the term?
bad news, she imploded her support network by kissing Dorothy.
maybe her coming out hasn’t actually been as painless as she’s making it out to be, and she just thinks that because she wasn’t as unlucky as the one other case study she’s aware of.
I can give her a pass on this one since she was in a fake relationship with Ethan for a while. Joyce still has years of knowing Becky without it being defined by her sexuality.
So for Joyce, Becky isn’t just ‘my lesbian best friend’, she was just ‘my best friend’. A big part of her time with Ethan was her working through him being gay.
I think it’s more that, if Joyce actually lets Becky come to her mind right now, the resulting guilt spiral will render her immobile. It’s the single thing she’s avoiding thinking about the hardest, even though sub-textually, one could argue that even her freaking out about this “stolen valor” idea, could just be the closest possible distraction in her mind to actually dealing with the fact that her best friend is spiraling, and Joyce actually feels responsible for that. She’s in full-on avoidance mode for all of the problems that feel too big or complicated to her, right now.
I genuinely think that “like Ethan or — or Becky” isn’t because Becky was an afterthought but because Becky is a painful thought right now so Becky’s name stumbled on the way out of her mouth.
I actually don’t hate this one, either – if the other strips in this hellhole of an arc had this funny a punchline (instead of whatever the hell those other things were) I’d be a whole lot more ok with the last however-long-it’s-been.
Yeah, this is great and was desperately needed. It’s nice to be reminded Joyce still has her interiority and that her inner struggles are in tact, and they don’t just go away because NRE has her in a chokehold. Fingers crossed we get more of this, and with Dorothy too.
I love that this is what feels like cheating to her. Not the whole “making out with someone else while in a relationship”, this thing. It’s ridiculous.
While true, Joyce is a bit of a ridiculous character in a cast full of them, so I’ll let it slide. She’s 1000% in maximum avoidance mode and will remain there until she quite literally is forced out of it.
Joe did feel like cheating in the moment, and I think there was a short, tacit acknowledgement of that fact, right after.
However, then her and Dorothy had to heroically escape the consequences of their heroic gay, and by the time they were done at that, Joyce’s life story has retroactively edited itself that Dorothy was her soulmate for life, and therefore, she isn’t actually allowed to feel bad for any choice she’s ever made in her life that led her to Dorothy, and also isn’t allowed to feel bad for any subsequent choice that stems from her being with Dorothy.
After all, she didn’t break up with Joe; she told Joe, that Joe was breaking up with her, because of what she did. Because he has to. Because that’s what happens, when you’re a hussy. It’s just what happens. Nobody has any agency in it.
She’s literally avoiding any agency in her current relationship, because the cognitive dissonance that comes from her viewing the situation through the lens of “I found the person I love, so therefore, my decisions have been perfect and must remain unassailable and objective to reality,” in contrast to the amount of people who had to get hurt in the process, is insurmountable at this moment.
Entertaining the idea that she hurt her friends, or that she’s morally responsible for anything in life besides being a perfect wife figure, is tantamount to her admitting that her perfect flawless obligate love for Dorothy, doesn’t exist to complete her in the way that she wants a relationship to complete her, or else it cannot and should not supplant her former codependent relationship with God, and the comfort and certainty which that relationship brought her. But, how she’s experiencing that, is through the lens that “if I don’t defend my love for Dorothy as a perfect, unassailable, objective truth of the universe, then I am a Bad Wife and I Don’t Deserve a partner as perfect as Dorothy.”
I kind of got side-tracked from the ultimate point, which is: Joyce felt like she cheated the moment after she literally cheated on Joe, but now she can’t acknowledge the truth of that feeling, because it conflicts with the necessity for her to feel that she was made for Dorothy, and thus, that no other persons wants or needs should matter to her, besides Dorothy’s. She does feel bad for doing wrong by Joe; but, she can’t reckon with that feeling right now, because she has internalized that said feeling is evidence of her unworthiness for Dorothy, and is also evidence that her underlying codependent tendencies are a coping mechanism, and not evidence of the divine truth that her love is evidence of her moral infallibility.
Does Joyce realize that bisexuality is a thing? It kinda bothers me that this is what makes her finally have some introspection, and not her thinking about her cheating and other shitty behavior towards a bunch of other characters.
It’s almost as if her recent behavior of aggressively proselytizing her queerness was some sort of front. I wonder where she could have learned that behavior from? XD
It’s one thing to declare yourself heroically gay and demand medals to defend yourself from someone you have decided in your brain is ontologically evil, it’s another to be alone for kind of the first time in over a day and have to really process the fact that, yes, you are gay now. And the sooner you stop trying to downplay it, the better you’re gonna feel about it. Like come on Joyce you would fuck Billie or Sal in a heartbeat. It’s not just Dorothy.
honestly, Raidah can be unpleasant, but I struggle to call her anything approaching “evil,” the fact that she’s kind of a mean girl feels a bit like a fart in a hurricane to someone like Blaine, who is pretty much the definition of. that’s just me, i tend to reserve “evil” for a very, very specific kind of person, and Raidah doesn’t cut it according to my personal metric, you know?
Raidah’s social climbing behavior is her worst trait IMO, and she was so cartoonishly invested in it ever since the semester break especially that it’s tipped her over the edge for me.
I feel like how Raidah treats her “friends” is a clear indicator of her priorities: you only matter to her if you can offer her something.
Does “bald-faced selfishness” equate to “evil”? I don’t think so. But I can’t name a single time Raidah has ever visibly done or even thought something nice for another person.
Maybe giving Sarah that free advice to “be social” in their first ever interaction, back in Flashback Land? I genuinely can’t think of anything else.
I think in a “D&D Alignment Chart” sense you could call her “evil”, but that’s about it — in THOSE terms, evil carries the sense of “caring more about self than about others”, and so you could put Raidah on that chart as “Lawful Evil” (understands and respects the rules of society, uses those rules to further her own ambitions and goals foremost).
I suspect her obvious concern for Bulmerian issues would make as strong a case for pushing her into Lawful Neutral.
that would be amusing. but i cannot imagine billie ever being willing to acknowledge it internally, much less publicly. i could see her trying to sublimate an attraction though.
Honestly Billie could totally justify it to herself by saying she’s just dating Joyce for HER benefit.
“Well Joyce is discovering herself and I’m so kind I’m willing to give her a good first experience”
I HAVE MY DINA PLUSH I AM SO THRILLED I LOVE HER AND I LOVE HER PLUSH SO MUCH!
Oh and cool strip, even though Dina isn’t in it. Obviously Joyce should learn that bisexuality exists, but I hope she also realizes that thinking “who wouldn’t be gay for Dorothy” means that she is SUPER GAY FOR DOROTHY.
Y’know what. I really like this one actually. One of my biggest gripes so far has been suddenly seeing Joyce jumping full force into being in lesbians without seeing any of her internal conflict about this sudden realization about herself. So seeing her take a step back and start to analyze how she feels is the kinda drama I’ve been craving.
Yeah these characters work much better in storylines separate from each other. Which is kinda oof for a couple, but this is a thread of a Joyce storyline I’d be more invested in.
Joyce has always been one to throw herself completely into new obsessions, and she already had strong feelings for dorothy well before she started processing them as romantic. Makes sense she jumped in full-force
Really, it feels like things happened so fast and then went so chaotic, then there was the new romance focus once things did calm down…that she hasn’t had a chance to really reflect on the big changes she’s recently went through. Definitely going to be interesting to see what she does end up contemplating.
There was time between their almost kissing on the bed before her date with Joe and meeting up again the next day before the protest where it seemed like she would have had time, but she filled that with the revelation that she’d had sex with Dorothy (by some definition) instead.
That’s the upshot of Christian Fundamental (and similar) schooling, isn’t it?
“You need to memorize all the things they teach you at school well enough to get an A in the class, but remember that it’s all lies, and the actual TRUTH is what we tell you here at home or at church.”
I give this reminder with all the love in the world to Joyce: she was absolutely giddy about going on a date with Joe and sucking his dick within the span of the last 72 hours. She’s gotta give it a week before giving up on being bi/pan. Let the pie cool on the window sill, girl!
I think she’s more in the mode of “Dorothy’s an exception” than “I’m really not interested in guys”.
Dorothy being the exception because True Love (and also a hint of Jennifer’s straight girls are sometimes into other girls thing)
And then Becky gets to percieve any Joyce-floundering as, “I’m sorry I don’t love you, it’s just because Dorothy is so great, I’ve always loved Dorothy but didn’t know it, I just had to realize it. And it’s so amazing that she loves me too and now we’re heroically gay together! But hey, cheer up, everything turned out great for you, too: you have Dina!!”
[Tig] Notaro and [Stephanie] Allynne began a text friendship. “I started bringing my phone to the bathtub—I just didn’t want to miss anything,” Notaro said. Then, on Valentine’s Day, Allynne invited Notaro to meet her at a bar. When Notaro got there, she found that she and Allynne were wearing the same type of chunky-wool cardigan. They traded sweaters and spontaneously kissed. “I’ve never just started kissing somebody in such a public place like that—I would never do that!” Notaro said. “And she’d never kissed a woman.”
The next day: confusion. “I had a little mental crisis,” Allynne said. “I wrote Tig the longest e-mail: ‘I really like you, I liked kissing you, but I just want you to know I am not gay.’ ”
“On and on and on,” Notaro said.
“Tig wrote back, ‘O.K., dyke.’ And I guess that was kind of it.”
I’ve seen her live twice, and one of them was so funny both me and my dad were crying with laughter. Lotta crowd work that time, though, wouldn’t transfer as well to her specials… but what’s on those is still pretty great.
Also I can actually relate to her imposter syndrome. I ain’t gay but I am black and something I’ve often struggled is feeling like I’m not…black? Or not black enough. I’m a suburbs kid. I like pop punk. I have a dorky voice. I watch anime (and not just shonen and action shows but romance anime and slice of life) I don’t know slang. I don’t suffer direct day to day racism in a way I notice. If you looked at every aspect of my personality in a vacuum without me never mentioning my race you’d never guess I’m black.
But I am black. I would often say “I don’t have a black voice” but I DO have a black voice. Because it’s my voice. Joyce is gay (or if you wanna say queer since it’s a vast spectrum) even if the literal only woman she wants to smooch is Dorothy.
I don’t know if they’ll ever go down it but I wonder if a bi character in strip will ever get the ‘oh my gosh you’re just gay’ or ‘you’re not even dating someone of the same sex, how can you call yourself queer’ crisis.
Which I guess is what Jennifer was doing to herself.
(fun* fact if you’re (binary?) trans you can bet the special version of this where people can accuse you of being ‘just straight’ or ‘just gay’ no matter if you date men OR women!
Oh, real bruh. Black is the default in my country so that’s already a much different dynamic to living alongside your oppressors, and I’m light skin with an American accent bc I was mostly socialized by the Disney channel as a kid. And I did K1-grade 11 at a private rich kid school bc they were the only ones who reliably handled my older brothers learning disabilities, so they could handle mine. And that place was kinda isolated from broader Jamaican culture (patois was literally banned so whoo I can’t speak my fucking local language) and the skin tone range of my classmates was a lot paler than you’d see in a normal Jamaican school. I never thought about myself in the context of race till like. After I graduated highschool and started mingling with normal people. (And also dating a white guy with a maga family helped). Like I had black lil girl hairstyles growing up but there was no real culture or community I was a part of. My dad was black, I knew that. My mom’s paler than me and relaxed her hair for years so I never thought of her as black until she said something about it when I was a teen. I stole walky’s quote when I saw it, I was generically beige. I relaxed my hair from like, ages 12 to 19? I was ambiguous looking. And when I realized I do in fact exist in a racial context I had a whole identity crisis. What do I call myself? I’m technically black but also I’m part of the privileged class where I live so is it really right to call myself that? For a long time I refused to cut my hair off even though I hated taking care of it, bc it felt like it was the only thing connecting me to my blackness.
Took a long time to really get comfortable in my identity. And I still feel weird about my identity as a Jamaican. Talking to outsiders it’s fine, but other Jamaicans… I’m an outsider myself. I’ve gotten enough shocked reactions when I tell people “nope, not American. I was born and raised here” that I’m considering just lying at this point. There’s a lot I only recently got in touch with, and stuff I’ll never get in touch with because they’re just incompatible with me. A lot of the culture is food I have aversions to, parties that are too loud and overstimulating, jokes I can’t read as jokes because they’re told with a completely straight face. Like I said I can’t even speak the same language as everyone else, bc patois *is* a language to itself. If you’re not raised with it it’s hard, I only got good enough at understanding in the past few years, and trust me when I say having audio processing issues doesn’t help. Oh and that’s not even getting to the casual homophobia and the intensity of the church in people’s lives. It honestly feels like id be less alone in a whole ass different country.
This was long, sorry. Its just good being able to discuss this shit
I appreciate the deep insight. As an American sometimes it’s hard to imagine this same sorta feeling in other countries and cultures. And yeah there’s a lotta latent normalized homophobia in a lot of American black culture (though I feel like it’s been getting better) that I just don’t vibe with it.
I’m being generous and assuming people have seen too many uncritically, unexamined media portrayals of ‘you’re straight or you’re gay, no other options’ and are having knee-jerk distaste for the phrasing
Interesting that Joyce is still in the mindset of “it’s just dorothy”. Still more to go in realizing just how many women in her life she would love to fuck
“I’m just so dedicated and devoted to my one true love, for whom I will make an exclusive exception” is easier to swallow than “the set of people I would let munch my carpet has expanded in such a way that I have to fully reevaluate my self-conception”
I think the only other girl she would put a question mark on is Sal. But Walky exists, and she hates Walky with a passion, so hooking up with Sal would be a no go because I can see her seeing HIM asking if she wants Chicken Nuggets while she’s in the throes of passion.
As much as I hate to admit it, even the thinking you have to be “sad and tortured about it” part is relatable to me– for being trans, specifically. Felt like I was claiming something that wasn’t mine to claim for a long time. Learning more about gender euphoria there was helpful– and it also helped me see more of the gender dysphoria I was experiencing.
Me about being ace for a long time but in different words. It actually got much easier to express my queerness when I started doing poly and had my qpp in my life and suddenly I was queer in literally any way that interfaced with a public that might give a fuck or an inadequate legal framework.
Like how queer am I really if I’m ace but I have sex sometimes and I’m in a heteroromantic relationship with a guy who is super chill about it and it won’t effect my life at all, I thought. Still queer. But idk. I know “straight passing” is in some ways kinda stupid. I would have a much harder time than most people partnering again if my husband and I ever broke up, we have an extra thing to navigate around in our relationship. But in a lot of ways it felt real right up until social economic and legal resources were on the line.
Anyway. Joyce, you’re fine. You haven’t stolen any valor, just like don’t claim to have hardships you don’t and enjoy your person (or people, I still have hope) and be happy. Also Dorothy isn’t that hot you’re just very into her it’s not the same. Another thing you get to enjoy.
speaking as a champion of being straight-passing and cis-passing, they’re real things that confer real privileges in our society. it’s stupid, and it’s unfair, but it’s definitely also real.
The power to retreat to a closet at all is a privilege I have over, for example, my visibly trans friends. It’s not fair and it still sucks but it is real. It’s just. Also not a desirable way to live. And the oppression olympics it usually gets used for are unhelpful to our shared cause.
And yet despite this wonderful “””passing privilege”, when we do community poll, bi people consistently report higher levels of depression, are more likely to have been victims of sexual assault or domestic violence, more likely to live in poverty.
It’s a fine theory, and all, but reality disagrees. The closet is not a privilege. It’s different for people who “pass” as cishet, not necessarily better.
Anyway passing privilege isn’t real. Don’t beat yourself up for “having” it and don’t throw your siblings under the bus by suggesting they “have” it, either.
Okay that comment went to moderation anyway, cool.
I provided three links, but you can just as easily find these yourself by googling bisexual statistics + topic. I grabbed the first links in each case but this is well-established.
(Sexual assault, suicide, and poverty were the “topics”.)
Bi people are also MUCH more likely to be completely closeted, as in none of the important people in our lives know that we’re not straight.
Twenty-six percent of bi people, as opposed to only 4% of gay men and lesbians.
Meanwhile, only nineteen percent of bi people are out to “all or most” of the most important people in their lives, compared with seventy-five percent of gay men and lesbians.
So I’ll just say again: the closet is not a privilege.
@Li
Just speculating, but might it be because burying part of oneself to “fit in” can feel like the safer option (and at least you get to live partly as who you are), while those who don’t have that “passing privilege” also don’t have that poisonous “safer option” and so, in an “all-or-nothing” situation, force themselves through the difficulties and eventually fully live as themselves?
Besides… struggling against difficulties, painful though it may be, is often better for mental health than simply giving up and letting society force you into the role it has for you while cutting off the bits of you that don’t fit.
@deliveryperson: I think it’s more likely to be what folks who are “””straight passing” consistently say it is, which is that they don’t feel like they’re welcome in queer spaces, and therefore wind up having no queer support system.
Also despite persistent myths, there aren’t actually a ton of homophobes out there who are more accepting of bi people, and indeed there are even, believe it or not, gay-positive biphobes, who think “at least gay people can’t help it”, or that bi people are liars/cheaters/sluts!
Who suffer higher levels of generalized anxiety and depression, with about the same likelihood to have attempted suicide as other LGBTQIA+ youth.
The statistics just do not support the idea that “straight passing” privilege is real. These identities are either experiencing exactly the same level of oppression or even more, when we look at actual outcomes.
Just came back – Thank you for all of the links, this is very interesting and definitely kind of a shift from how I’m used to thinking about things. I appreciate the stats, and also the commitment to not letting people underplay the implications of the stats. Hella respect.
In general agreement with Li, just going to toss in that since you brought up privilege in comparison to your trans friends and haven’t mentioned being trans yourself– yes, cis privilege is a thing. That’s something cis queer folks have that is not “passing privilege.”
Queerphobes aren’t generally great at distinguishing between us, so it might or might not confer different treatment on an individual level, and anti-trans legislation still splashes back on not only cis queer people but also cis straight people all the time because of the dystopian gender essentialism, but there’s still most definitely a systemic axis of privilege there.
Yeah, but…I’m not closeted. I’m queer as hell. But, nobody can determine that, only by looking at me. Random people on the street don’t know that I’m queer, cops don’t know that I’m queer, because being queer just isn’t always visible. I don’t go to any deliberate effort to hide my queerness; it just isn’t innately visible.
So, maybe privilege is a bad word for what I’m describing, given its meaning in other contexts, but I didn’t say it was a privilege, I said that it confers real privileges. I do consider it a privilege to not be profiled, and to not be a target of bigotry in public; not every queer person has access to that, and it just so happens that I don’t “look” queer, to the average bigot.
So, if there’s a better word for that than “privilege,” I’d love to learn it. But otherwise, I don’t think it would be fair to say that I’m closeted, because my presentation isn’t divergent enough from the presumed binary to attract queerphobic abuse to me in day-to-day life. I’m not pretending to be something I’m not for safety; I just happen to get extra safety, because my appearance and my presentation happen to not run afoul of bigoted conceptions, despite my otherwise-obvious queerness.
Again: if the “privilege” you’re experiencing would disappear if you told people who you really are, it is not privilege. A big part of privilege is not having to think about these things at all.
As opposed to: white privilege, class privilege, thin privilege… all of which can make being queer less dangerous. A lot less dangerous, for that first one.
You can feel like you are personally lucky and that you personally have things easier than other people if you really want, but by reinforcing the idea that passing privilege exists, you are throwing a lot of your queer siblings under the bus.
If I may… I’m a bi woman dating a bi man. We are mistaken for straight, but it’s more than that. We’ve never been afraid to kiss in public and never had to worry about possibly being unable to marry one day. I always considered that to be a kind of privilege I had, personally speaking. Yet I also always bristle at the implication that it’s “easier” to be bi than to be gay. Is this, do you think, some sort of internalized biphobia, or falling for false stereotypes? Maybe there’s a better word for what I’m describing than “privilege”?
(Coming from a genuine place, here, not trying to argue! I want to understand and analyze my own lines of thinking and make sure I’m not doing harm, even to myself.)
I think you feeling that way reflects how certain parts of the community have tried to make a BIG PUSH for “if you can hold hands with your partner in public, you’re privileged!!!”
And it’s not something that even begins to acknowledge the complications of being cis GNC, much less trans.
I linked above to a couple of surveys about community outcomes (and several more that are currently awaiting moderation) to challenge the false narrative that bi (and ace) people actually ~have it easier~ than gay people.
Again, I’ll just say: conditional acceptance that requires not telling the truth about who you are is not a privilege. It’s just a different kind of stress!
No yeah very real, but the discourse gets suuuuuper dumb online. I can talk usefully about that stuff in real life but the “if you’re passing you’re basically not even queer” discourse online is insane, especially as it relates to bi people. It’s kinda stupid not bc it’s not real but bc for some reason our community likes to draw lines around people so that it can exclude them, and that can impact one’s feelings about the validity of their experienced queerness.
I think “isn’t THAT hot” is specifically in response to Joyce’s belief that literally every person on earth would wanna fuck Dorothy, not a commentary on AK’s subjective feelings about Dorothy’s hotness. Cuz yeah, it is rather subjective, that’s the point.
Yeah I’ve pretty consistently had that feeling of “I dunno, I don’t really feel like I can say I’m queer cuz it’s never made my life worse”. It’s a very strange imposter syndrome.
Just never forget, that queerness being a source of strife and corruption and ruin, is fully the narrative that our oppressors forced on us, and on our whole civilization. The feelings are valid; but, unpacking those feelings, is also among the most effective acts of rebellion we can take against hetero-normative colonial patriarchy. The system of oppression loves it, when we further marginalize ourselves by choice, and not doing what the system wants out of spite, just so happens to also be really good for our senses of self.
Yeahhhhhh…that’s the one hand…but then on the other hand I’ve had friends who really heavily embraced being oppressed as being like, a core aspect of queer identity, and they care a lot more about being queer than I do, and they did not seem to feel like I counted. And that hand’s argument is less logically sound but it’s a lot more emotionally charged so it’s hard to dismiss it outright.
I mean I’ve also had queer friends who are like “nah it’s good that queer people don’t have to oppressed, that’s great and makes me happy”. And I DO call myself queer. It’s a lot snappier than giving people my whole shopping list of identities. But I do always have a lil thing in the back of my head that whispers “(but not as queer as people who’ve been oppressed for it)”.
imposter syndrome is a stubborn bongo, but it does get easier to silence with practice. it is an exhuasting, tedious grind of a battle. but it is one worth fighting.
No, I definitely get that! I just always like to make sure we all remember to treat the established order with the spite it deserves. Spite can, on rare occasions, be a useful force for good XD
It really does feel like that’s part of the issue going both directions — I was just reading a discussion where an author I like was saying how some of her fellow trans folks were MAD that she’s a successful children’s author and that she’s not REALLY a trans person since she can do that instead of writing angry political screeds all the time.
Not only do some people make “being oppressed” a core part of their identity, but some of THOSE folks go out of their way to try to make it contagious.
When you go from “being oppressed is part of my identity” to “being oppressed is my entire personality”.
(Not to make assumptions about Fuzzy’s social circle specifically, but as a white queer I feel like we’re especially vulnerable to it. The closer you get to “being queer is the only axis on which I am marginalized”, the more tempting it is to make that your entire source of identity.)
Joyce negotiating your identity is a perfectly normal thing when you’re queer and feeling like you aren’t X enough to be Y is even more normal. Every single time I’ve found a new aspect of who I am it’s come with major imposter syndrome, and every other queer person I’ve met has gone through the same.
I’m pretty sure this thing where you are feeling shitty about your right to be gay and accusing yourself of stolen valor is sufficient to qualify as a tortured gay. That kinda shit keeps people in the closet until their deathbed.
the eternal dichotomy of the internet, eh? like a modified version of the assassin’s creed. instead of “nothing is true, evrything is permitted” you get something along the lines of “nothing is srs, everything is cringe.” you get people acting like the latest patch notes to helldivers are the final, datkest days of the Kali Yuga before all is turned to ash… and you get people who cannot go five seconds into a pandemic without making a big chungus meme.
You are outrageously angry over an intentionally bad-faith reading of a fictional character, but I’ll engage: she means that she feels like she’s pretending to be something she’s not, and therefore undeserving of recognition for the kinds of struggles queer people go through.
I’m not exactly sure what you’re specifically mad at, but it might help to take a break from DOA/webcomics/the internet for a while.
Joyce is FAR from the first person to use “stolen valor” self-deprecatingly to mean something like “I’m getting credit for doing/being something I don’t feel like I deserve” outside of a military context.
And why on earth would anyone using the term in that way piss you off so badly anyway?
an unsurprising number of people get very attached to identity terms, when their relationship with that part of their identity is a direct source of life-altering traumas for them.
Oh sure. I understand being explosively mad at Stolen Valor (as in lying about one’s military service to get social or material benefits), I just don’t quite understand thinking the term “stolen valor” means that exclusively — it hasn’t for a hot minute.
This feels like a dangerously self-hurting path to walk. Invalidating your identity because life didn’t kick you in the jaw enough times.
Kind of reminds me of that one Brooklyn 99 storyline where Holt was gearing up to figuratively annihilate that one young gay cop in black gay cop organization elections because he didn’t go through all the shit that Holt did. Until another character pointed out to him “But isn’t he what you Wanted to happen? Someone who didn’t have to suffer all that you did because of who they are? Isn’t this the happy future that you wanted?”
Bisexual. The correct term is bisexual, Joyce. And Dorothy even admitted that on the Kinsey scale she’s a 2- into guys mostly, but will fall deeply for one girl- Joyce.
Oh, and Joyce is right about one thing… she IS most definitely cheating. On Dorothy. Because she never specifically told Joe that it’s over, and that is most definitely going to cause a wedge between her and Dotty when Joe comes back with flowers, semi-confident that he can still be Joyce’s side piece.
Dorothy assumed that Joyce was as quick and cruel to Joe in breaking up with him as she was to Walky. (Remember, she LAUGHED in Walky’s face, saying she won.) I can totally see Joe coming in with flowers, Dorothy getting between them telling Joe that Joyce made it clear she wants nothing to do with him and she’ll call campus security if he goes near her again, but Joyce is too awestruck by the gesture that she doesn’t get behind Dotty. Joe tells Dotty that Joyce promised him a talk to iron things out, Dotty is shocked by this revelation, and makes an ultimatum- her or Joe. Joyce sputters and Dotty storms off.
With respect to the alt-text: I am fascinated with the fact that “sad girl crying in snow” has been a verbal meme for at least a decade, but there are no online references to it. It seems to inhabit non-indexed parts of the internet like image boards, comment sections, chat rooms, and discord channels. So people say it and reference it, but if you do a search for it nothing comes up.
Ah, so it’s a Megatokyo reference! When I first encountered the phrase it was with “crying” in it and I didn’t know that was an addition, but even without the additional word, nothing turns up about the phrase on search engines. It is truly magical, a meme that has escaped categorization.
I vaguely recall, as someone who was there at the inception, that it might be a visual trope that shows up a lot in an old visual novel/manga/anime/etc, Kanon. I have no further knowledge of it besides reading about it in this context, so I cannot confirm; however, the wiki article does note:
“The events of the story occur during winter, and since it often snows periodically over the course of the entire story, the city is always presented covered in a layer of snow.”
Also, Joyce seems to be very all or nothing. Now that she’s with Dorothy, OBVIOUSLY she is and has ALWAYS 100% homosexual gay and has never ever ever even once in her entire life been even slightly attracted to a boy, NOT EVEN ONE OR ONCE, because such a thing would betray her TRUE AND FOREVER DESTINED LOVE with Dorothy.
Isn’t she saying right here that she’s only technically gay, that it’s just Dorothy and of course anybody would be attracted to Dorothy. That doesn’t seem to deny her attraction to boys.
Yeah, but she’s also leaving out the several women in the cast who she’s externalized obvious and clear sexual attraction toward, because those aren’t right in front of her, right now. Billie and Sal are the two obvious ones who come to mind, but I could easily be forgetting more.
Of course she is. That Dorothy is her only exception is clearly bullshit, but that doesn’t mean it’s not what she’s saying, rather than that she’s completely gay and never ever been attracted to a boy as anonymsly says above.
The ultimate point is, she just can’t accept the possibility that she will actually feel sexual and romantic attraction to anybody who isn’t her destined soulmate spouse life partner, cum sublimation of her formerly-ironclad, codependent attachment to God. She never accepted the possibility that she could want to be with anybody but her future spouse, in any way, and now the possibility that her relationship with Dorothy could be in any way transient, or possible for her to fuck up, is devouring her on the inside.
I mean, that makes sense, but I don’t think it fits with what she’s saying here. Doesn’t it rely on her meaning “I’m gay (not bi), and thus wasn’t and can’t really be attracted to Joe or anyone”, when I’m reading her as saying “I’m not really gay, I’m straight with Dorothy as my only exception”.
Imagine a world in which we had a specific word for ice cream flavors that aren’t vanilla. Like, one huge conglomerate word, that labels ice cream as either vanilla or “other” in the same way that we label either straight or queer.
Sounds crazy, right? Vanilla’s just *a* flavor. And sure, you see it most often, and sometimes someone’s covered it in chocolate, and sometimes someone’s put nuts on it, but it’s still essentially vanilla. You can cover strawberry or mocha chip with chocolate, too.
I get that theres a large group of people saying it’s horrible and wrong to be anything but straight, and it’s probably that adversity that causes us to have names for “not straight” in the same way that we don’t have words for “not vanilla.”
I wonder how long it’ll be until we as a society don’t need catch-all words like this anymore. I mean, right now, 100%, it’s how we identify ourselves and let others know they’re not alone… but in a future where having a dick and liking people who have dicks is as remarkable as having a Nintendo and liking people who have a Nintendo, what use would words like that have, other than to divide us?
How long, do you think? How many generations?
Do you think we’ll ever get there?
I imagine a future where an archeology class, 10,000 years from now, are pouring over a shipment of comics that were preserved by some UPS van falling into a frozen lake or something, and going, ‘Ah, so their societal class was constantly in flux depending on whose genitals interfaced with whose.’ Also being genuinely confused about BlowJobCat and wondering why a feline pleasure droid was sitting in front of an elementary school.
I don’t think erasure of identity terms is desirable, so I hope never. The grouping– wider community beyond one’s specific identity– I could see fading in a perfectly accepting society. There will always be this history, so I hope the terms and understanding of that aren’t lost.
So that is, it’s possible that “not vanilla” would lessen, but that wouldn’t be the same as losing the terms “chocolate,” “mint chip,” “rocky road.”
Humans want and even need to label things; imagine having to consciously evaluate the qualities of every single object you interact with to determine what it is. (You would likely have no spoons/cognitive runtime/etc left to do anything else.) One failure mode of this, however, is when we do not re-evaluate things in response to new data; another is refusing to accept the possibility that a thing can exist in multiple categories at the same time, particularly when one internalizes the metaphor of putting things in physical boxes.
The alt-text feels pithy today, “Gay sad Joyce in snow” but there is no snow. And maybe no sadness, or maybe no gayness. Just Joyce thinking ‘Shouldn’t I feel bad about feeling so good?’ Maybe it feels like Stolen Valor because it was so easy to cross this line like there was no line at all. Maybe you don’t love someone because they match your checklist, maybe they match your checklist because you love them and you’re not under contract to define yourself as any one thing.
But “defining herself as any one thing” has been Joyce’s life since infancy. Recall that when she first arrived at IU it was with the intent to snag a husband, and get a degree in education so she could home-school their seven beautiful children. She may take more than a day or two to shift paradigms.
On a less commented on element, this may explain part of why Joyce is thinking that being gay is “heroic.” Because she can’t conceive of the idea that gay people can live fulfilling happy lives. It’s all misery porn (which Becky would be annoyed by). She’s very much of the “Tragic Queer Person” trope.
Ironically, for all that Becky would be mad about it, part of why Becky is so mad at Joyce is she DID get to coast past so many of the difficulties she did with Hank.
You can’t remove that element from Joyce’s story but I think this is more Joyce’s college experience causing her to associate being gay with a massive struggle that involved standing up to armed gunmen.
It can.
But it didn’t in Joyce’s case and ticked Becky off in a backhanded way.
The moment the prolonged happy chemicals go down , paired with a somewhat unhappy situation, the mind goes to illogical or exaggerated thoughts and conclusions.
Wait is your mind neat and quiet enough that you can have quiet internal thoughts? That are like, words? If I try to do that without at least mouthing them out they get hit by a brain bus or something and get mangled. It’s like Frogger extreme mode
Brains are quite individual. I know someone who has no internal thoughts, sounds or visualisations!
I can’t visualise (except in dreams) but I do have a constant internal monologue that never. stops. talking. It is coherent, but I would not call it quiet, exactly! Getting them to come out smoothly is tricky, they’re at the wrong speed for speech and the act of speaking derails the thoughts.
I will definitely blurt out the odd phrase or sing and hum without realising it, or get in little repetitive loops of nonsense phrases, especially when alone.
Frogger extreme mode sounds rough in a whole other way.
I don’t only talk to myself, sometimes I recite character dialogue from comics or animation ideas I have in character talking to myself from the perspective of those characters.
Impressive, Joyce. I’ve rarely seen someone so quickly twist their own emotional healthiness around to unhealthiness. You should get some sort of badge or something.
Wow, you miss a lot when you start skipping the comments most days. I remember a lot of people saying Joyce needed to be more introspective about, say, the effect this was all having on Joe, or her accidental hijacking of the protest. I missed the part where people were saying she needed to be more introspective about whether she was even gay if she wasn’t angsty about it.
Neighbor, it’s been so long since Joyce shared her thoughts with the audience that she could introspect about her choice of underwear for the day and I’d call it a win.
I don’t think anyone called specifically for this particular flavor of angst, but there was a lot of “We haven’t seen Joyce’s thoughts about realizing she’s into women at all”. If this is where those thoughts go, it’s where those thoughts go.
and let’s be honest, there are lots of people who would (and do) choose “blissful unthinking euphoria” over constantly overthinking things, spiraling, having to deal with intrusive thoughts and/or listen to a critical voice in their heads for most of their waking hours, etc etc in a heartbeat.
I mean, I can empathize – the first time Hillary kissed me (because I wasn’t picking up on any of her signals), I was kind of “no thoughts, only vibes” for a couple of days, and we weren’t even in close proximity for most of that time.
bi discovery arc? maybe? one of those spoiler panels that willis posted a while ago for this storyline features joyce doing a goofy dance in a bi-colored flannel listening to music and i thought to myself “idk what song is actually going to be playing here, but i’m imagining she’s just learned about bisexuality and is listening to ‘gettin bi’ from crazy ex-girlfriend” and this strip is bringing me one step closer to that being reality so
I can’t wait for them to have the bi conversation because Joyce can declare herself gay all she wants, Dorothy won’t do that. Also instead of Danny or Ruth, Dorothy is the best person for her to talk it through I would say 😉
Huh, I guess we can sneak introspection now instead of on the revelation because too much is happening. I even kind of like Joyce going “I’m gay. Huh. Maybe I’m just kind of… straight with exceptions?” Which would lead to a very fun conversation with Robin if that ever comes up.
It’s been explained (mostly by Leslie), but Joyce currently cannot/refuses to accept that anyone she personally knows – especially herself – is or might be.
For that matter, Joyce is iffy on things that are not binary or existing in multiple categories in general.
ohhhhhh, Joyce. Oh sweetie. Oh you. gods this resonates with a lot of my experiences growing up. “Sure, I like *kissing* girls, but I’m still straight because I would Date a woman or be in a relationship with one.” *falls madly in love with one of my best friends* “Huh. well. okay. huh.”
looking forward to her navigating the ups and downs of shedding all this internalized bs that to be gay/queer is to be miserable <3 <3 ___> @ my antecedent)
I get her thinking right now. At one point I was wondering if I was a transwoman. Straight woman, not gay man. It happens when we start to accept ourselves. The rationalizing.
No one said it wasn’t. Joyce is allowed to use whatever word for herself she feels like using, plenty of people all around the queer spectrum use the word ‘gay’.
Also remember that words like heterosexual, homosexual, lesbian, bisexual are defined words. Gay is a ‘use’ word and therefore smewhat loose in meaning. Queer is looser in meaning.
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“it feels like cheating”
OMFG AAAAAAAAAAAA XD
IM DEAD
our girl getting that Bi/Pan anxiety. She’s one of us now.
i sincerely hope she stays the fuck away from Jennifer
this internalized bi denial is very real, she’d be the worst person for her T~T
Jennifer is on a whole other level of bi denial, one that I don’t think anyone can get to without being her specific level of in denial about a lot of things lol
I think Jennifer is just a case of “rules for thee, not for me” thing. She has no problems with gender identities or anything, she just can’t accept HERSELF as being ‘different’ from her own self-made image.
Lots to unpack on that one.
the amount of unpacking there could fill an arc or two lol
honestly i would be weirdly fascinated to understand how billiefer arrived at this strange level of denial. it is mind boggling how complete and total it is.
She has to be “normal”. Everything about her is perfectly normal. She’s not nerdy, she’s not queer, she’s not “weird” in any way. She can’t be.
(Why? Good question.)
I wanted to reply directly to StClair but it’s beyond the point that the buttons go away.
The reason why is, she’s a rich girl who could never get the amount of attention a child deserves from her rich, status-obsessed parents. As a result, she’s a black hole for external validation, and needs to do everything she can to reinforce within herself the idea that she’s sitting atop her social hierarchy; partly to replace the love she never got, and partly because she thinks adhering to this idea of success might someday impress her folks.
This is also, presumably, where her constant rash decisions and acting out come from: the only way she can ever get her parents attention, is when they show up to bail her out of a crisis.
dang, T, you are just nailing everything lately. 🙂
I think that could be an entire comic all by itself.
Or an ark. Two by two… or more (or fewer). All that jazz.
The game ‘Unpacking’ but with the contents of Jennifer’s brain
Is it REALLY denial, though, if EVERYONE ELSE is wrong, and only I’m right?
It’s not *really* that complicated. She has a narcissistic sense of superiority to everyone that isn’t exactly the person she thinks she is, therefore any admission that she is different from what she thought she was involves stepping down from the pedestal she puts herself on. But she does actually know, on some level, that she isn’t that, and that she’s better off not being that, and she kinda hates the self that she holds up as superior, which means she’s in a superposition of hating herself and loving herself and Y’know know that I think about it maybe it is that complicated.
I hope she and Jennifer hang out even more, I live for the drama!
THAT’S what feels like cheating?
I love Willis’s sense of humor.
🤣 *SMDH*
Oh, I see, THAT’S what feels like cheating. Okay Joyce.
so THAT’s what he meant by cheating storyline!
It finally makes sense! 😛
joyce it’s okay to be happy about being gay (colloquial), you dont gotta stress about not being stressed about it
Joyce: I’m not gay – not like, really gay-gay. Because I’m not into girls…I’m only into Dorothy. I’m exclusively Dottysexual.
Me: O, honey… that is still so very, wonderfully, beautifully gay. ❤
In theory the “straight with an exception” thing is possible.
In Joyce’s case, it’s very much not what’s going on.
Straight with an exception for Dorothy… and Sal… and maybe Billie …
But not Becky, so it has to be a list of individual exceptions, not general attraction to women.
yeah it’s gay pride not gay shame. tho i can understand her being dorothy sexual even tho she has a sorta mild unconscious attraction to billy/sal. Altho i wonder how many ppl would ship billiefer/joyce b/c that would be its own disaster XD
I feel like even a brief relationship where Billifer is showered with unbounded affection by someone like Joyce could be a good thing for her, if she could learn to accept it. Not sure what Joyce gets out of the situation though, other than access to boobs, haha.
(I’m sure there’s something. I just can’t think of anything off the top of my head.)
Boy, is that relatable. You don’t have to be depressed or tortured to be valid, Joyce!
all i ever want for my gay friends is to never hate themselves as much as i was taught to hate myself. the assumption that self discovery must be a painful one is the most tragic thing. in a world more sane than ours, discovery, self and otherwise, would be naught but wonder.
Really we wish we could like comments because this is beautiful
That would be a wonderful world indeed.
“And their heart grew three sizes that day…”
Seriously, that is beautiful. Can you be in charge for a while?
welp
Tell me that Joyce is not talking to the audience.
Lying is bad.
Only if this is one of the ones inserted into the established buffer, but I think those were pretty much the ones focused on Muslim characters. Either that, or Willis fully anticipated the reaction to the cheating aspect of the storyline.
Over on bsky, Willis gave us the script they wrote last winter break (away from computer, couldn’t draw it). So no, this isn’t an audience reaction thing.
Oh no Joyce got the ‘not actually gay’ disease from Jennifer
Yeah, this upcoming conversation is gonna be a Thing.
Which one?
Yes.
This feels like bi erasure
I can accept this from Joyce, she stumbles over her words like *crazy*
(I hate when it shows up in the comments, but c’est la vie)
Joyce is also like the queen of black and white thinking in this comic.
Joyce thinks!?!?!
Her problem is that she can’t think and exist socially at the same time. Thinking is for when you’re alone. When people are around, you have to default to the Rules For Existing Flowchart, which determines what objectively correct behavior she should be performing.
you have so perfectly summarized what so much of daily life feels like i am stunned. either you’re some kind of bodhisattva or you are capable of mind reading.
I’ve been asked “How are you?” and gave an answer other than “Fine,” which was evidently not on the Rules For Existing flowchart and triggered an Angry Other Person error.
Of course, we have to pretend to believe the little lies (being fine) if we want to stand a chance at pretending we still believe the big ones (meritocracy, freedom, prosperity, future)
Society is a freaking charade.
I found it helpful when I decided that the “how are you / fine, you? / good, thanks” exchange is not an exchange of info at all, but it’s a social ritual. More like birds cawing at each other, not an actual check-in of how you are.
It means “hello, I see that you’re human! I am performing this ritual that makes most people I’ve ever met feel more comfy.” “Why yes, thanks for noticing. You too are a human, I see you.” “Yep we sure are humans. Social ritual complete! 🙂 ”
This way it makes sense, if you deviate too far from the ritual script, that some low-insight NTs could subconsciously think you’re implying “I refuse the social ritual! Perhaps I do not see you as a person, and/or perhaps I don’t care whether you’re comfy. So there!” Which would be a strange and hurtful idea, and they don’t even know they’re accusing you of implying such a thing, they just get annoyed and confused that the common ritual got broken.
(I have explanations like that, just ready to go, and yet somehow nobody ever figured out that I’m probably Autistic too)
@Gigafreak, same, and then later on in life when trying to account for that via flowchart been thrown off by the person actually caring and asking for elaboration, which isn’t in my flowchart.
@Leorale, a complemenary perspective is that they may also not be NT, they may be a different “category” of ND, or similarly ND but with a different spin on how they developed socially for whatever reason, that led to strict adherence to The Flowchart to survive socializing and having strong RSD-type reactions to being bumped off their flow(chart) (because I think a big factor in many cases of RSD is it’s a sudden change from knowing where you are to being lost. Like being in the wilderness and suddenly realizing your map is bad – although if I’m honest I might find that literal situation less dysphoric). Also, the flowchart is part of the mask and being unmasked can be unsafe, also just having ND doesn’t grant insightfulness (especially when in a social situation where the brain is fully occupied by performing a social), also I think it can be a trap to assume people with similar NDs have similar communication styles or that they can easily spot one another in social situations, as not everyone has the same mask – not saying you’re in disagreement with any of these things, just worth being said alongside what you said.
As a non-reply to anyone specific, if you’re highly reliant on the flowchart, please figure out a way to communicate clearly with your doctor (if you have one, sadly must be said) and people who actually do want to know and help and whom you can trust (if you have any, sadly must be said). And then tell me how lol 🥲. The healthcare machine is always looking for reasons to not treat you, and if you let it, it will absolutely use “how are you fine” as an excuse. Providers these days are often squeezed into 20 minute appointments and every single word counts, whether or not you’ve had time to warm up to the concept of communicating verbally with someone. Side note: also many providers seem to take “better” as “all good” which can lead to a quick “OK see you in six months”. I end up saying things like “less bad” when describing change in symptoms.
further clarification @Leorale I get what you’re saying is meant more as “survival in the NT world” not necessarily “assuming everyone is NT just because they have to know how to survive in the NT world”. But I think it can be a perspective that ND and NT people alike can take that can stymie understanding so it triggered my opinion dump.
I just am honest but brief. “Not great honestly, I hope you’re doing okay for the both of us” or “things are rough rn honestly” or something. For some reason throwing in the word “honest” seems to help, idk why anyone would *want* to be doing badly but w/e. I just got tired because lying is energy consuming for me and so I decided I no longer care about other people’s comforts when it comes to social rituals
@Dwampe Scorrigank — legit! ND people could also have a negative reaction to eschewing the ritual.
Plus I got to say “eschewing”.
@Airyu – “honestly” plus brevity would work, too! I can talk about why that works, but anyway, it does, and I’m glad you found a good way to save your energy.
The reverse would be pretty off-putting (unless you’re hot/charismatic). “Dishonestly, I’m fine! Totally lying through my teeth. You?”
Love the pratchett reference.
I guess that’s the best explanation for why we saw none of this introspection about what her attraction to Dorothy means until now. I’m not sure that’s normally been a problem Joyce had? She’s worked through a lot of stuff while talking to others – especially Dorothy, but not only her.
OK you just topped Willis for Most Helpful Thing I’ve Read on this Webpage Today
She does, and the amount is inverse to her proximity to Dorothy.
Like https://xkcd.com/231/ but for Dorothy instead of a cat.
Your mom fells like bi erasure
**reads this comment and Nonos**
Oh shit. Something must be wrong with my eyes, cause I’m seeing double!
It’s not a Joyce thing if she doesn’t squash down every part of her past to make her current hyperfixation her new reality
… Yes. That’s kinda the whole thing. Joyce is grappling with internalized biphobia. That’s not an oversight; it’s just kinda the text.
Eh, not so much ‘biphobia’ as ‘bi-ignorance’. She simply hasn’t processed that there’s a non-gay/non-straight option, yet.
Which means it’s time to fall on Joe’s penis, again, to further confound her.
Bi erasure with a bi character goin with male or female character in fiction always reminds me of the saying “its not a spider bite”.
Honestly, Joyce struggling with feeling like she’s not sure if being gay/bi/anything makes sense for her is probably the most relatable thing to this bi reader lol
Meanwhile,
Dorothy: I guess I’m a 2 on the Kinsey Scale.
Joyce is having trouble defining herself as bi, which is a normal and understandable thing to go through.
If by “bi erasure” you mean “bi people calling themselves gay,” then, well… no? Bi people can call themselves gay.
Example: Me. I’m so FUCKING gay.
Hi so FUCKING gay, I’m Dad.
You’re not my real fucking gay dad!
In this case though, she doesn’t seem to be considering bi as an option. She’s gay, but not true gay. Which she partly seems to link to gays needing to be sad and tortured, but also because she’s only gay as a technicality, because of Dorothy.
I’m not sure she’s using gay in the exclusively lesbian sense here — she thinks Dorothy is the only person of the same gender that she has feelings for, so she’s not sure whether it’s okay to label herself “gay” (or “queer”, or “bisexual”) when she feels mostly straight. At least that’s how I interpret it?
Very common for people who start questioning their sexuality in adulthood. “I didn’t grow up stigmatized, and I don’t feel like a different person, so do I even have a right to this label?”
(you could be right! it just didn’t come off that way to me, at least not … the main issue?)
I think we basically agree, though I’m not sure she’s even considering the concept of the “bisexual” label.
I meant to contrast the “only for Dorothy” part to the others above saying she now thinks she’s gay and not attracted to men at all
Joyce only started learning about the LGBT+ community within the last couple months, and has only meet Lesbians and her Trans sister, who were open enough to explain stuff to her. She might not KNOW what Bisexuality is, which would be a reason why she is going through this moment right now.
I didn’t know what Asexuality was till I was in my 20’s, and it fucking sucked up until that point not knowing what I was.
The only Bisexual character she interacts with on a regular basis is Billie, and Billie has been trying to “Play it straight” for a while now, she called her thing with Ruth a “Phase” at one point if I remember correctly. Joyce is also pretty bad at reading people and situations.
Learning what the letters stand for is one hell of an experience, especially when you’re not sure where you sit on that alphabet lol
Joyce does know what bisexuality is on a theoretical level, and was even able to recite the definition to Dorothy at the drop of a hat, but she grapples with recognizing it in practice; remember, she ambushed Ruth and Jason in the cafeteria that one time because she thought Ruth was practicing comphet instead of just Being a Bisexual In Public.
Add that in with Joyce’s romantic tunnel vision/Romantic Object Pernanence problens, and it’s not surprising that she’s going straight (LOL) to “I Am A Big Gay Who Is All About Exclusively Smooching This Girl.” The idea of one’s sexuality extending outside one’s current partner is not one that she has historically grappled well with.
As soon as she starts coming to terms with ‘being gay now’ she’s gonna see joe or some other hunk and have another imposter crisis lmao
repeat looney tunes style until it internalizes
I think it’s also kind of related to her ironic statement of “this feels like cheating;” the whole reason Joe doesn’t feel like cheating, right now, is that from Joyce’s perspective, how could it be? She’s instinctively sublimated her prior reality, to fit the narrative that Dorothy is her One True Love And Soulmate, because to Joyce, if that’s not true, then she isn’t doing right by Dorothy, and she’s “doing being gay wrong.”
Even though, in the literal text, she clearly articulates after kissing Dorothy, that now she has a problem, which I think we all pretty much took to her and Dorothy mutually acknowledging (indirectly, and through subtext, but still) that they just cheated on their partners. AND, in the literal text, she presents this information to Joe as “now you have to break up with me, because I’m a hussy.”
Joyce has been vigorously trained from birth, that life is about satisfying a narrative that was made for her by an outside authority, and to immediately disregard any and all conflicting evidence that might complicate any of her prescribed narratives. That’s what she is doing, and has been doing. Every love she has, needs to be pure and formulaic in that storybook way, or from her perspective, she is doing it wrong, and letting her lover down.
She knows deep down that she cheated on Joe, knows deep down it was wrong, knows deep down that she isn’t “over” Joe, and knows deep down that she would be with him and Dorothy, if she was allowed to. What she can’t do, is actually put any of those feelings into context with her current situation, which is that Dorothy is her soulmate and her wife, and that fully loving her with her whole self, and doing so in perfect alignment with her conditioned expectations of that divine narrative, and anything that conflicts with that narrative, she’s naturally putting out of her mind, entirely.
Joyce literally cannot accept nuance, where her feelings and sense of self are concerned; she can comprehend nuance, and is actually quite good at nuance in any situation where she has no related anxieties and reasonable emotional distance; but, once it interferes with her idea of doing right by the most important person in her life? Full-scale avoidance of the highest degree. Those thoughts must be put out of the mind. They cannot be reckoned with, because entertaining them and their complexities, is a very short path to failing at performing her true love narrative for Dorothy.
She can’t actually wrap her head around the fact that she can have more than one person in her life at the top part of that hierarchy. Even though, right now, she obviously has several people in her life she would literally die for, on a whim. But she has no narrative framework for that, within her own experience of identity. When your whole self was brought up to be a servant of God first, and a servant of Spouse second, the idea that you have to prioritize anybody but the most important person in your life is just not going to come quickly or naturally.
Oh you’re GOOD at this
okay. putting my money on bodhisattva.
This analysis is fucking excellent.
*applauds*
1000% this yes thank you
Joyce was in college to find a spouse and now she has. That remains a throughline. She does have to deal with having found two but that’s all background.
You are on FIRE with these analysis comments, holy shit!
She does also know Ruth and Billie, the latter whom Joyce idolised and has some really bad takes on bisexuality
I was going to say Joyce interacts with Ruth and Danny too, but the latter is barely and I don’t even know if Ruth would be considered ‘regular interaction’.
Also, I don’t think she sees either of those people as bisexual; she got really weird when Billie and Ruth later dated men, and I just don’t think she has any practical evidence that Danny is anything but straight, even though the readers know otherwise. This is a genuine blind spot from her, and her primary source of information on bisexuality, comes from a delusionally-confident, self-hating closeted bisexual who doesn’t acknowledge her own identity.
The first information anyone gets on a topic, sticks the hardest in their mind, and Joyce’s first exposure to ideas about bisexuality, fully came from a serial bi-eraser who directly implies that all straight women want to bang their female friends. So yeah, it’s unsurprising that she’s now struggling with this premise; like with many things she’s learned, Joyce was set up to fail from the start of her education.
Joyce however made a passing grade in a class which covered the subject.
It’s really easy to regurgitate information on tests and papers without internalizing it
Reciting the truth doesn’t mean you believe it. Lots of homeschooled fundie kids can, in fact, pass a basic college course that includes evolution as a topic–they just don’t accept the concepts consciously.
Plenty of stories about finding out the professor’s particular brand of bullshit a few weeks into the term, deciding it’s not worth arguing with them, and parroting it back to pass the class.
I mean. Yeah. It’s joyce
Only in Joyce’s head. She already knows about Ruth’s bisexuality, but doesn’t accept it:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-12/02-ill-leave-you-a-phantom/murdering/
Geez, I actually forgot how antagonistic Joyce and Becky had gotten for a while.
It took an entire pot of mac’n’cheese to mend that bridge!
And now, Joyce is out here putting pepper in her mac. She really is trying to murder Becky, isn’t she?
It’s interesting to look at the strip after that one and see why she has such a problem with fluid sexuality. Like Becky, she’s afraid that if sexuality can change, then the assholes like Toedad who want to turn people straight were actually right.
I think it’s more internal than that; Joyce is afraid that, if desire is fluid, then she will betray her spouse at some point in the future, and she can’t accept that not perfectly capping her fairy-tale romance is an actual possibility she could fuck up. Right now she has to be a lesbian, because that makes it harder for her to fuck up being with Dorothy – for instance, by wanting to be with a man, later. It’s also why her narrative was that Joe had to break up with her; she didn’t actually want to confront her feelings about breaking up with him, and whether she actually wanted that, but her narrative required them to be separate, to validate her now-undying fairy-tale love for Dorothy. Which must have always retroactively been true, because that’s how True Love works.
Conversely, you look at Becky, and she has relatively the same reaction, but for the opposite reason. Becky desperately needs desire to stay solid and consistent, because she comes at the premise from the fear of being abandoned. While Joyce needs it to be solid so Joyce doesn’t have to confront the possible fear of her doing wrong by her soulmate, Becky needs desire and presentation to be solid so that her partner won’t abandon her, or change in a way that makes her unable to stay their partner. Or, in the absolute most extreme sense, Becky needs desire to be solid, because if it isn’t, then she pretty much killed her whole family for nothing, didn’t she?*
I think the underlying reason for both of them coming at the connections and relationships so intensely, with such rigid parameters, is that for both women, their view on relationships with people are sublimated from what they learned earlier, which was from their relationship with God. Joyce saw God as an objective truth and real entity who she needed to perform eternal service to, and so once she came of the age where she would desire a relationship, she processes her relationship with her spouse as she did her relationship with God. Becky, on the other hand, saw God more as a means by which to bring a community together, and naturally treated God as a way to be connected to an in-group that wouldn’t abandon her, which explains her unwillingness to abandon Christianity, even after said in-group literally did abandon her.
So, while Joyce viewed her faith as an objective truth about reality, Becky views her faith as a bulwark against abandonment; thus, Joyce still comes
at her secular relationships from the same perspective of her fulfilling a sort of divine destiny, and her concern about “being gay wrong” is a downstream effect of her subconscious perspective that her romantic partner is her replacement for her relationship with God. While, Becky views her faith primarily through the lens of her deep-seated fear of abandonment, thus the self-fulfilling prophecy she has about the inevitability that she will make everybody abandon her. Which, then, makes her continued connection to Christ very appealing, since Christ is literally the only person who can’t abandon her.
* – obviously she fucking didn’t do this, I am speaking from Becky’s perspective. I can’t believe this is a detail I need to clarify, but here we are.
the possibility of becky blaming herself for those deaths never occurred to me before, and it’s heart breaking.
Oooh. I’d forgotten that interaction.
Interesting how Joyce immediately assumes that the only reason that Ruth could be with Jason is a fear of hell causing her to feign heterosexuality.
Gotta love some skilled foreshadowing.
Also gotta love Jason catching strays.
Because it literally is bi erasure – from Joyce, I’ll specify, not Willis. I genuinely don’t think she believes that bisexuality is real.
I think that, in short:
She was originally stubborn about accepting the reality of bisexuality, because she was in denial about her subconscious romantic feelings for Dorothy.
She is currently being stubborn about accepting the reality of bisexuality, because accepting that paradigm of reality right now, would in her mind threaten the integrity of her love for and devotion to Dorothy.
She went from bi-erasing to keep herself from accepting being gay, straight to bi-erasing out of latent shame that her lust for men makes her insufficiently gay, and therefore a failure as a lesbian life partner.
Both are stupid, but this isn’t Smarting of Age.
I think there’s like a 50/50 chance the storyline here is going to be Joyce ultimately confirming that she’s 100% gay, not bisexual, and never felt any physical attraction to Joe at all, just so that Willis can watch the comment section burn.
By Willis’ own established rules this cannot happen unless Walky also comes out as a trans woman.
Even if Joyce does ‘confirm’ that she’s 100% homosexual gay, there is a LOT of actual evidence of Joyce being attracted to men, such that said confirmation would be for sure a lie in itself.
Right now Joyce is likely to insist that she is 100% homosexual gay and has never once, never ever ever even one time, been attracted to any dude, because being attracted to a dude means she’s betraying her PERFECT AND ETERNAL DESTINED FOREVER WIFE Dorothy.
But dudes who are atttractive to her do still exist, so she’ll have to figure it out eventually.
Which, in a way, would still be a win for me, so I’m all here for it if that’s the way they choose to burn the comment section down.
Oh my gods, I would LOVE an Egg!Walky storyline.
Throwatron, your analyses today are bang on the mark. Bravo.
Except it kinda is from Willis too. Even in the alt-text few calls her “Sad, gay Joyce in the snow”.
I’m not king of the Bisexual (merely a freeholding lord), but it’s always off-putting to me when other bisexual people call themselves gay. It’s feels like a bit of self hatred meant to let one fit in weigh the other queer folk by denying heterosexual attraction.
It’s hard enough dealing with people thinking we’re fence sitters who need to pick a side/ are in denial without encouraging that in ourselves and others.
i as an ESL also tend to forget that “gay” is often used as an umbrella term in english. which, personally, infuriates my autistic brain because it’s inaccurate when gay can mean “wlw, mlm, non-binaries loving men/women/enbys, or everybody loving everybody“ OR it can mean “gay men and lesbians“ OR it can mean “only gay men”. THIS IS INFURIATING. we’ve reclaimed QUEER as an umbrella, so i always assume when i read gay it means mlm because *you could say queer or LGBTQIA+ if you mean everyone*
Kirdei, I’d also prefer seeing queer rather than gay be used.
But then, I’m the sort of pedant who is constantly annoyed by people using vagina when they mean vulva.
same tbh 😀
There is no snow, and Joyce is not sad, so perhaps we might conclude that Joyce is also not gay.
yes exactly. joyce is stuck in very binary thinking of straight and gay, but…
if you’ve enjoyed dating and/or fucking people of at least two different genders, being bi or pan is more likely than being straight or gay.
So…like, MOST people would probably have SOMEONE of their non “standard” attraction that they’d be interested in, wouldn’t they? That seems more…”normal but denied by the gender norms our society has set up” that really “bi”? But I have no idea.
I dunno about statistics, but some people are sexually/romantically repulsed by a gender or by body parts. Doesn’t have to be a phobic thing, their internal settings might just be rigid like that.
Tough cookies for them!
People are free to identify how they want, right? I’ve got a couple of friends who are Lesbians with an exception they are currently dating/married to. By that standard Joyce and Dorothy might be Straight with an exception or heteroflexible?
YES! This becomes especially important if a longterm partner comes out as trans. If the lesbian partner of a trans man decides to stay with him, it doesn’t suddenly make her gay or even bi (unless she says so), he might also be the unexpected exception. And it might be important for her to keep her lesbian identity, that’s not saying she doesn’t accept her partner being trans. “i’m a dyke and i happen to date a lovely queer man“ is a valid statement. <3
* i meant to say ‚suddenly make her straight…“ in one of the sentences
Absolutely! Like, if Joyce says she’s bi, she’s bi*. But “straight with an exception” is also valid without needing to insist she must be bi or gay,
*Well, if she was a real person. Since she’s fictional we can feel to critique her presented sexuality in a way that wouldn’t be appropriate for a real person.
The pictures where we see her in profile she looks an awful lot like her big sister
Yeah, that’s just a family resemblance. They’re both girls (even if one of them didn’t know she was for a while), they’re both Browns, it’s not surprising that they have similar profiles.
Also weirdly this may be the happiest I’ve been about a Joyce strip for ages because oh man it’s a strip that’s not her being obnoxious and it’s actual character introspection?
But uh, sorry about your internal crisis Joyce. But more of this please
Yes, this is what I like to see.
People have been wondering what happened to the “old Joyce” who was actually capable of great introspection, and made great points to Dorothy about her complex feelings around bad actions she had done in the past, based on her romantic intentions.
Well, it probably has something to do with her and Dorothy being in a codependency spiral for the last real world year of strips. Joyce hasn’t been freaking alone with her own thoughts for more than a few minutes, in I Don’t Even Know How Long, and I think that’s a requirement for her doing the up-front work.
It took her about thirty seconds away from Dorothy, to start actually processing guilt and shame related to how she’s been acting; yeah, she’s focusing on the wrong thing, but at her own first opportunity, she’s now beating herself up about how she’s doing this new obsession all wrong, and has to get better at it.
And, if we really want to diagnose her annoying codependency with, and repeated inappropriate proclamations of, her love for Dorothy…well, Joyce’s #1 example for How To Be a Lesbian is Becky. That’s who she’s been emulating, to shield herself from criticism of her actions, and her underlying bad feelings. It’s just the same damn coping mechanism for both of them.
I believe that’s why Joe hasn’t gotten an answer yet, nor has Dorothy gotten a heads up about whether it’s even on the table for Joyce. Joyce needs to figure it out for herself before she talks to either of them. That is, think about it herself, not ask Dorothy to tell her what to do or have Joe as her sounding board (not saying she couldn’t use a sounding board, I wonder if she knows any good gender studies teachers or their former-crush sidekicks? (not saying Robin is a good idea, but really can I doubt that she’d insert herself). If it might be a dealbreaker for her she does need to let Dorothy know soonish instead of letting her get attached while Joyce thinks about it. But on day 2 (or two days after the kiss, I don’t know when the technical start was, besides the beginning of time) when she hasn’t had a moment to think?
Speaking of day 2, I think it might be a little soon to call “codependecy”. They’re just having a honeymoon phase, give ’em some time to burn it out of their system. Although, I don’t actually know what you mean by “codependency” – I don’t think you mean the phenomenon of enabling a partner’s self-destructive behavior. If so can you explain further, if not can you clarify what you mean by the term?
I wished for a moment of clarity, and I got my wish. Let’s hope we won’t cut away immediately.
That’s something to unpack. Get this baby dyke to a support group stat
bad news, she imploded her support network by kissing Dorothy.
maybe her coming out hasn’t actually been as painless as she’s making it out to be, and she just thinks that because she wasn’t as unlucky as the one other case study she’s aware of.
Again, not a dyke. Baby queer.
She’s not a dyke, she’s bi.
Jennifer has convinced her bisexuals are fake outside of porn.
So only in Joyce’s fanfic.
Hater containment thread ⬇️ don’t be weird in here
Don’t actually hate this one. Yall have fun though.
Only kvetch is jeez Joyce, Becky isn’t even the first gay person that comes to your mind? This girl really is not a good best friend to her, huh
I can give her a pass on this one since she was in a fake relationship with Ethan for a while. Joyce still has years of knowing Becky without it being defined by her sexuality.
So for Joyce, Becky isn’t just ‘my lesbian best friend’, she was just ‘my best friend’. A big part of her time with Ethan was her working through him being gay.
I would have thought that Becky would have made enough of a habit of yelling “I’M A LESBIAN” at every opportunity for it to take up more mental space!
Maybe but it’s also been less than six months since Becky came out to her. Joyce has known her for years and years.
Joyce is avoiding thinking about that situation so hard she memory holed Becky entirely. Sad to see it.
She has a habit of memory holing people. It’s sort of her thing until she gets them in line of sight.
damn, poor Becky. Only hole Joyce let her into
(that one hurt me too, I’ll see myself out now)
I think it’s more that, if Joyce actually lets Becky come to her mind right now, the resulting guilt spiral will render her immobile. It’s the single thing she’s avoiding thinking about the hardest, even though sub-textually, one could argue that even her freaking out about this “stolen valor” idea, could just be the closest possible distraction in her mind to actually dealing with the fact that her best friend is spiraling, and Joyce actually feels responsible for that. She’s in full-on avoidance mode for all of the problems that feel too big or complicated to her, right now.
The “stolen valor” bit is a nice callback to her “I should get a medal” line with Raidah.
hahahaha damn nice catch, that’s glorious
I genuinely think that “like Ethan or — or Becky” isn’t because Becky was an afterthought but because Becky is a painful thought right now so Becky’s name stumbled on the way out of her mouth.
I actually don’t hate this one, either – if the other strips in this hellhole of an arc had this funny a punchline (instead of whatever the hell those other things were) I’d be a whole lot more ok with the last however-long-it’s-been.
Yeah, same. This is starting to get back into the reason I stick with this webcomic.
not hate really, but I do find it very funny that the wind picked up in time to give Joyce dramatic waving hair with the last panel lol
Yeah, this is great and was desperately needed. It’s nice to be reminded Joyce still has her interiority and that her inner struggles are in tact, and they don’t just go away because NRE has her in a chokehold. Fingers crossed we get more of this, and with Dorothy too.
I love that this is what feels like cheating to her. Not the whole “making out with someone else while in a relationship”, this thing. It’s ridiculous.
While true, Joyce is a bit of a ridiculous character in a cast full of them, so I’ll let it slide. She’s 1000% in maximum avoidance mode and will remain there until she quite literally is forced out of it.
Joe did feel like cheating in the moment, and I think there was a short, tacit acknowledgement of that fact, right after.
However, then her and Dorothy had to heroically escape the consequences of their heroic gay, and by the time they were done at that, Joyce’s life story has retroactively edited itself that Dorothy was her soulmate for life, and therefore, she isn’t actually allowed to feel bad for any choice she’s ever made in her life that led her to Dorothy, and also isn’t allowed to feel bad for any subsequent choice that stems from her being with Dorothy.
After all, she didn’t break up with Joe; she told Joe, that Joe was breaking up with her, because of what she did. Because he has to. Because that’s what happens, when you’re a hussy. It’s just what happens. Nobody has any agency in it.
She’s literally avoiding any agency in her current relationship, because the cognitive dissonance that comes from her viewing the situation through the lens of “I found the person I love, so therefore, my decisions have been perfect and must remain unassailable and objective to reality,” in contrast to the amount of people who had to get hurt in the process, is insurmountable at this moment.
Entertaining the idea that she hurt her friends, or that she’s morally responsible for anything in life besides being a perfect wife figure, is tantamount to her admitting that her perfect flawless obligate love for Dorothy, doesn’t exist to complete her in the way that she wants a relationship to complete her, or else it cannot and should not supplant her former codependent relationship with God, and the comfort and certainty which that relationship brought her. But, how she’s experiencing that, is through the lens that “if I don’t defend my love for Dorothy as a perfect, unassailable, objective truth of the universe, then I am a Bad Wife and I Don’t Deserve a partner as perfect as Dorothy.”
I kind of got side-tracked from the ultimate point, which is: Joyce felt like she cheated the moment after she literally cheated on Joe, but now she can’t acknowledge the truth of that feeling, because it conflicts with the necessity for her to feel that she was made for Dorothy, and thus, that no other persons wants or needs should matter to her, besides Dorothy’s. She does feel bad for doing wrong by Joe; but, she can’t reckon with that feeling right now, because she has internalized that said feeling is evidence of her unworthiness for Dorothy, and is also evidence that her underlying codependent tendencies are a coping mechanism, and not evidence of the divine truth that her love is evidence of her moral infallibility.
I think you may be my new favorite commenter.
Yeah, joining the chorus that these are a delight.
Does Joyce realize that bisexuality is a thing? It kinda bothers me that this is what makes her finally have some introspection, and not her thinking about her cheating and other shitty behavior towards a bunch of other characters.
Intellectually she does, but internalizing it is a different story.
See this sequence
Joyce. Honey.
Don’t worry. You’ll get there. Once the world starts shitting on you for loving Dorothy, you’ll get there.
The irony of my comment appearing immediately below Dot’s hater thread is not lost on me.
Everyone loves Dorothy (me)!
I love this ridiculous woman
Since Wicked is so topical right now, just thinking of the song Thank Goodness right now. Which could mean nothing!
I thought only Jews and Catholics could generate that kind of self-inflicted guilt.
Ironically (?), Dorothy is both.
Like Hitler, maybe partly!?
That explains so much…
ohohohoho, no… no, not at all. i’m neither of those things. protestants can do unecessary psychological guilt complex just fine. 😂
Reporting in that Mormons do it just fine.
Athiests too!
Theres the emotionally grappling with realizing she’s queer I was waiting for
It’s almost as if her recent behavior of aggressively proselytizing her queerness was some sort of front. I wonder where she could have learned that behavior from? XD
I need a character to walk in frame with a pink-purple-blue paint roller and just slather her from waist to forehead, as a retort.
Carla? Seems like a Carla move.
You want to make Joyce invisible???
“Where’s the angst? There was supposed to be earth-shattering angst!”
Becky isn’t enough???
God! You don’t think she will turn to Becky to sort her “fake” gay problem out, do you? Joyce could be cruel like that.
Made all the worse because it’s NEVER on purpose.
It’s one thing to declare yourself heroically gay and demand medals to defend yourself from someone you have decided in your brain is ontologically evil, it’s another to be alone for kind of the first time in over a day and have to really process the fact that, yes, you are gay now. And the sooner you stop trying to downplay it, the better you’re gonna feel about it. Like come on Joyce you would fuck Billie or Sal in a heartbeat. It’s not just Dorothy.
Truth.
“safe and warm forever…”
I highly doubt Joyce thinks Raidah is evil.
Raidah might be lawful evil at worst. she plays the bongos well, but she seems to follow some laws.
. . . maybe we need some alignment charts for the cast.
honestly, Raidah can be unpleasant, but I struggle to call her anything approaching “evil,” the fact that she’s kind of a mean girl feels a bit like a fart in a hurricane to someone like Blaine, who is pretty much the definition of. that’s just me, i tend to reserve “evil” for a very, very specific kind of person, and Raidah doesn’t cut it according to my personal metric, you know?
Raidah’s social climbing behavior is her worst trait IMO, and she was so cartoonishly invested in it ever since the semester break especially that it’s tipped her over the edge for me.
I feel like how Raidah treats her “friends” is a clear indicator of her priorities: you only matter to her if you can offer her something.
Does “bald-faced selfishness” equate to “evil”? I don’t think so. But I can’t name a single time Raidah has ever visibly done or even thought something nice for another person.
Maybe giving Sarah that free advice to “be social” in their first ever interaction, back in Flashback Land? I genuinely can’t think of anything else.
I would argue that “bald-faced selfishness” is the actual root of all evil, and love of money exists as a subset of that.
I think in a “D&D Alignment Chart” sense you could call her “evil”, but that’s about it — in THOSE terms, evil carries the sense of “caring more about self than about others”, and so you could put Raidah on that chart as “Lawful Evil” (understands and respects the rules of society, uses those rules to further her own ambitions and goals foremost).
I suspect her obvious concern for Bulmerian issues would make as strong a case for pushing her into Lawful Neutral.
I’d say at the least any concerns about her being ontologically evil in that scene were overwhelmed by Raidah targeting her with homophobia.
God I wish she was with Billie. I ship Joyce and Billie HARD.
Watching Billie immolate with cringe every time Joyce opens her mouth in public would actually be very entertaining.
that would be amusing. but i cannot imagine billie ever being willing to acknowledge it internally, much less publicly. i could see her trying to sublimate an attraction though.
Honestly Billie could totally justify it to herself by saying she’s just dating Joyce for HER benefit.
“Well Joyce is discovering herself and I’m so kind I’m willing to give her a good first experience”
Another completely normal thing she’s willing to do for a …
“oh god, we are friends, aren’t we?”
this 100% how it would go down. and now i too wish to see this happen.
I HAVE MY DINA PLUSH I AM SO THRILLED I LOVE HER AND I LOVE HER PLUSH SO MUCH!
Oh and cool strip, even though Dina isn’t in it. Obviously Joyce should learn that bisexuality exists, but I hope she also realizes that thinking “who wouldn’t be gay for Dorothy” means that she is SUPER GAY FOR DOROTHY.
Very old call-back to her wondering if girls are into Walky because they can smell the residual Dorothy on him
Y’know what. I really like this one actually. One of my biggest gripes so far has been suddenly seeing Joyce jumping full force into being in lesbians without seeing any of her internal conflict about this sudden realization about herself. So seeing her take a step back and start to analyze how she feels is the kinda drama I’ve been craving.
Yeah these characters work much better in storylines separate from each other. Which is kinda oof for a couple, but this is a thread of a Joyce storyline I’d be more invested in.
yee, NRE one helluva drug
Joyce has always been one to throw herself completely into new obsessions, and she already had strong feelings for dorothy well before she started processing them as romantic. Makes sense she jumped in full-force
Really, it feels like things happened so fast and then went so chaotic, then there was the new romance focus once things did calm down…that she hasn’t had a chance to really reflect on the big changes she’s recently went through. Definitely going to be interesting to see what she does end up contemplating.
There was time between their almost kissing on the bed before her date with Joe and meeting up again the next day before the protest where it seemed like she would have had time, but she filled that with the revelation that she’d had sex with Dorothy (by some definition) instead.
Joyce, it’s called being Bi, and you’re going to get stereotyped as a hussy because of it.
That’s the thing, Joyce knows what being bi is, yet doesn’t:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-12/02-ill-leave-you-a-phantom/murdering/
Ah thank you i was looking for that one
Leslie really needs to start grading harder.
Leslie can’t help it if Joyce is really good at memorizing strings of text exactly, independent of her actual ability to internalize their meaning!
Actually, there are ways that teachers can teach and test for comprehension rather than memorization.
Applied vs theoretical sexualities
That’s the upshot of Christian Fundamental (and similar) schooling, isn’t it?
“You need to memorize all the things they teach you at school well enough to get an A in the class, but remember that it’s all lies, and the actual TRUTH is what we tell you here at home or at church.”
I give this reminder with all the love in the world to Joyce: she was absolutely giddy about going on a date with Joe and sucking his dick within the span of the last 72 hours. She’s gotta give it a week before giving up on being bi/pan. Let the pie cool on the window sill, girl!
That all-or-nothing thinking style can be a helluva drug
I think she’s more in the mode of “Dorothy’s an exception” than “I’m really not interested in guys”.
Dorothy being the exception because True Love (and also a hint of Jennifer’s straight girls are sometimes into other girls thing)
Indiana, you’ve got trauma.
“SNAKES. I. HATE. SNAAAAKES.”
For the first time in days, Joyce is alone with her thoughts. This should be interesting.
oh god how long until she ends up going to Becky to talk about this and apologize
She has nothing to apologize to Becky about.
well sure, but go try to convince Joyce of that fact, and see how it goes!
And then Becky gets to percieve any Joyce-floundering as, “I’m sorry I don’t love you, it’s just because Dorothy is so great, I’ve always loved Dorothy but didn’t know it, I just had to realize it. And it’s so amazing that she loves me too and now we’re heroically gay together! But hey, cheer up, everything turned out great for you, too: you have Dina!!”
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/06/13/meeting-cute-plus-cancer
[Tig] Notaro and [Stephanie] Allynne began a text friendship. “I started bringing my phone to the bathtub—I just didn’t want to miss anything,” Notaro said. Then, on Valentine’s Day, Allynne invited Notaro to meet her at a bar. When Notaro got there, she found that she and Allynne were wearing the same type of chunky-wool cardigan. They traded sweaters and spontaneously kissed. “I’ve never just started kissing somebody in such a public place like that—I would never do that!” Notaro said. “And she’d never kissed a woman.”
The next day: confusion. “I had a little mental crisis,” Allynne said. “I wrote Tig the longest e-mail: ‘I really like you, I liked kissing you, but I just want you to know I am not gay.’ ”
“On and on and on,” Notaro said.
“Tig wrote back, ‘O.K., dyke.’ And I guess that was kind of it.”
God Tig Notaro is such a vibe. I think the first thing I heard of her was her story about Taylor Dane. Which slays me every time.
I’ve seen her live twice, and one of them was so funny both me and my dad were crying with laughter. Lotta crowd work that time, though, wouldn’t transfer as well to her specials… but what’s on those is still pretty great.
Also I can actually relate to her imposter syndrome. I ain’t gay but I am black and something I’ve often struggled is feeling like I’m not…black? Or not black enough. I’m a suburbs kid. I like pop punk. I have a dorky voice. I watch anime (and not just shonen and action shows but romance anime and slice of life) I don’t know slang. I don’t suffer direct day to day racism in a way I notice. If you looked at every aspect of my personality in a vacuum without me never mentioning my race you’d never guess I’m black.
But I am black. I would often say “I don’t have a black voice” but I DO have a black voice. Because it’s my voice. Joyce is gay (or if you wanna say queer since it’s a vast spectrum) even if the literal only woman she wants to smooch is Dorothy.
I don’t know if they’ll ever go down it but I wonder if a bi character in strip will ever get the ‘oh my gosh you’re just gay’ or ‘you’re not even dating someone of the same sex, how can you call yourself queer’ crisis.
Which I guess is what Jennifer was doing to herself.
(fun* fact if you’re (binary?) trans you can bet the special version of this where people can accuse you of being ‘just straight’ or ‘just gay’ no matter if you date men OR women!
*its not fun.)
There’s also the part where people forget you’re bi if you’re single.
someday we will teach john q. public to be able to hold two thoughts in concert inside their heads at a time… someday.
honestly, i think we might have to start with getting him to hold one.
you’re_not_wrong.gif
Oh, real bruh. Black is the default in my country so that’s already a much different dynamic to living alongside your oppressors, and I’m light skin with an American accent bc I was mostly socialized by the Disney channel as a kid. And I did K1-grade 11 at a private rich kid school bc they were the only ones who reliably handled my older brothers learning disabilities, so they could handle mine. And that place was kinda isolated from broader Jamaican culture (patois was literally banned so whoo I can’t speak my fucking local language) and the skin tone range of my classmates was a lot paler than you’d see in a normal Jamaican school. I never thought about myself in the context of race till like. After I graduated highschool and started mingling with normal people. (And also dating a white guy with a maga family helped). Like I had black lil girl hairstyles growing up but there was no real culture or community I was a part of. My dad was black, I knew that. My mom’s paler than me and relaxed her hair for years so I never thought of her as black until she said something about it when I was a teen. I stole walky’s quote when I saw it, I was generically beige. I relaxed my hair from like, ages 12 to 19? I was ambiguous looking. And when I realized I do in fact exist in a racial context I had a whole identity crisis. What do I call myself? I’m technically black but also I’m part of the privileged class where I live so is it really right to call myself that? For a long time I refused to cut my hair off even though I hated taking care of it, bc it felt like it was the only thing connecting me to my blackness.
Took a long time to really get comfortable in my identity. And I still feel weird about my identity as a Jamaican. Talking to outsiders it’s fine, but other Jamaicans… I’m an outsider myself. I’ve gotten enough shocked reactions when I tell people “nope, not American. I was born and raised here” that I’m considering just lying at this point. There’s a lot I only recently got in touch with, and stuff I’ll never get in touch with because they’re just incompatible with me. A lot of the culture is food I have aversions to, parties that are too loud and overstimulating, jokes I can’t read as jokes because they’re told with a completely straight face. Like I said I can’t even speak the same language as everyone else, bc patois *is* a language to itself. If you’re not raised with it it’s hard, I only got good enough at understanding in the past few years, and trust me when I say having audio processing issues doesn’t help. Oh and that’s not even getting to the casual homophobia and the intensity of the church in people’s lives. It honestly feels like id be less alone in a whole ass different country.
This was long, sorry. Its just good being able to discuss this shit
I appreciate the deep insight. As an American sometimes it’s hard to imagine this same sorta feeling in other countries and cultures. And yeah there’s a lotta latent normalized homophobia in a lot of American black culture (though I feel like it’s been getting better) that I just don’t vibe with it.
Joyce: I’m gay! There is no in between, just gay or straight! I will embrace this!!
Dorothy: I guess I’m a 2 on the Kinsey Scale.
Also Joyce: I’m only gay strictly by technicality, by way of Dorothy
Yessss yes the weird emotional drop after the two finally separate… I was waiting for this…
“It feels like cheating.” don’t worry joyce, nobody in this comments section will ever accuse you of that
Hah! Megatokyo reference. I still have and use the ‘Sad Girl in Snow’ blanket.
ooooooh \o/
I was so proud of my megatokyo messenger bag in high school. I wonder what happened to it.
I love that blanket, and the ‘Fox Girl In The Autumn Leaves’ one; I use them all the time in cold weather.
The bi erasure is strong in this one.
Ok people keep saying this when I’m pretty sure they mean “internalized biphobia”
I’m being generous and assuming people have seen too many uncritically, unexamined media portrayals of ‘you’re straight or you’re gay, no other options’ and are having knee-jerk distaste for the phrasing
It’s both really. It’s internalized biphobia but that biphobia is expressed via erasure, referring to being bi as not “true gay”
In the same way a real person in the real world being overly friendly with people of the same gender isn’t performing a “gay baiting”.
Interesting that Joyce is still in the mindset of “it’s just dorothy”. Still more to go in realizing just how many women in her life she would love to fuck
“I’m just so dedicated and devoted to my one true love, for whom I will make an exclusive exception” is easier to swallow than “the set of people I would let munch my carpet has expanded in such a way that I have to fully reevaluate my self-conception”
She really should have preemptively married half the town!
I think that half the town was operating under false assumptions.
These new revelations mean she should have preemptively married the whole town.
that was a truly poetic way of putting it… you have my sincere applause, fellow interweb traveler.
I think the only other girl she would put a question mark on is Sal. But Walky exists, and she hates Walky with a passion, so hooking up with Sal would be a no go because I can see her seeing HIM asking if she wants Chicken Nuggets while she’s in the throes of passion.
I think Billie might also be F on Joyce’s Marry-Fuck-Kill list too.
i believe the quote was “i could be safe and warm in [her breasts] forever”
Smaller character, but Liz is also absolutely up there
You’re bi, anyway
It was front page news even but maybe she hasn’t caught the headline yet
As much as I hate to admit it, even the thinking you have to be “sad and tortured about it” part is relatable to me– for being trans, specifically. Felt like I was claiming something that wasn’t mine to claim for a long time. Learning more about gender euphoria there was helpful– and it also helped me see more of the gender dysphoria I was experiencing.
Yeeeep.
Truth.
Snorts softly. Common mistake honey walk it off. Also I think Joyce kinda burned off a lot of her angst on all the…. everything else, you know?
yeah, a sexual awakening is a big deal, but this gal has also had guns pointed at her, been kidnapped, etc. etc.
The new poll should really have “For me, it was Friday” as an option, for us non-USians.
Joyce truly following in Walkyverse Robin’s steps of being “Straight, with an exception”
I’m pretty sure that neither Joe nor Walky wouldn’t be gay for Dorothy.
“It feels like cheating” well, you’d know.
Rapidly becoming an expert on the subject!
Probably off to go do it some more.
Here’s hoping! Maybe it’ll actually mean something this time!
the true bisexual experience
Me about being ace for a long time but in different words. It actually got much easier to express my queerness when I started doing poly and had my qpp in my life and suddenly I was queer in literally any way that interfaced with a public that might give a fuck or an inadequate legal framework.
Like how queer am I really if I’m ace but I have sex sometimes and I’m in a heteroromantic relationship with a guy who is super chill about it and it won’t effect my life at all, I thought. Still queer. But idk. I know “straight passing” is in some ways kinda stupid. I would have a much harder time than most people partnering again if my husband and I ever broke up, we have an extra thing to navigate around in our relationship. But in a lot of ways it felt real right up until social economic and legal resources were on the line.
Anyway. Joyce, you’re fine. You haven’t stolen any valor, just like don’t claim to have hardships you don’t and enjoy your person (or people, I still have hope) and be happy. Also Dorothy isn’t that hot you’re just very into her it’s not the same. Another thing you get to enjoy.
…I feel like I’m talking to the tv.
speaking as a champion of being straight-passing and cis-passing, they’re real things that confer real privileges in our society. it’s stupid, and it’s unfair, but it’s definitely also real.
No, they’re not!
Privilege that depends on people never finding out the truth about who you are is not privilege, it’s a CLOSET.
The power to retreat to a closet at all is a privilege I have over, for example, my visibly trans friends. It’s not fair and it still sucks but it is real. It’s just. Also not a desirable way to live. And the oppression olympics it usually gets used for are unhelpful to our shared cause.
And yet despite this wonderful “””passing privilege”, when we do community poll, bi people consistently report higher levels of depression, are more likely to have been victims of sexual assault or domestic violence, more likely to live in poverty.
It’s a fine theory, and all, but reality disagrees. The closet is not a privilege. It’s different for people who “pass” as cishet, not necessarily better.
*polls
*probably also other typos
*I was distraught
Anyway passing privilege isn’t real. Don’t beat yourself up for “having” it and don’t throw your siblings under the bus by suggesting they “have” it, either.
Huh, I didn’t know that. Is there data I can go look at? I believe you I just find that kind of thing interesting.
Okay that comment went to moderation anyway, cool.
I provided three links, but you can just as easily find these yourself by googling bisexual statistics + topic. I grabbed the first links in each case but this is well-established.
(Sexual assault, suicide, and poverty were the “topics”.)
Bi people are also MUCH more likely to be completely closeted, as in none of the important people in our lives know that we’re not straight.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/06/18/bisexual-adults-are-far-less-likely-than-gay-men-and-lesbians-to-be-out-to-the-people-in-their-lives/
Twenty-six percent of bi people, as opposed to only 4% of gay men and lesbians.
Meanwhile, only nineteen percent of bi people are out to “all or most” of the most important people in their lives, compared with seventy-five percent of gay men and lesbians.
So I’ll just say again: the closet is not a privilege.
@Li
Just speculating, but might it be because burying part of oneself to “fit in” can feel like the safer option (and at least you get to live partly as who you are), while those who don’t have that “passing privilege” also don’t have that poisonous “safer option” and so, in an “all-or-nothing” situation, force themselves through the difficulties and eventually fully live as themselves?
Besides… struggling against difficulties, painful though it may be, is often better for mental health than simply giving up and letting society force you into the role it has for you while cutting off the bits of you that don’t fit.
@deliveryperson: I think it’s more likely to be what folks who are “””straight passing” consistently say it is, which is that they don’t feel like they’re welcome in queer spaces, and therefore wind up having no queer support system.
Also despite persistent myths, there aren’t actually a ton of homophobes out there who are more accepting of bi people, and indeed there are even, believe it or not, gay-positive biphobes, who think “at least gay people can’t help it”, or that bi people are liars/cheaters/sluts!
That makes sense, in a “society is terrible and bigots come in many horrible varieties” kind of way.
Oh and while I’m at it:
This is also true for ace people.
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/research-briefs/asexual-and-ace-spectrum-youth/
Who suffer higher levels of generalized anxiety and depression, with about the same likelihood to have attempted suicide as other LGBTQIA+ youth.
The statistics just do not support the idea that “straight passing” privilege is real. These identities are either experiencing exactly the same level of oppression or even more, when we look at actual outcomes.
Just came back – Thank you for all of the links, this is very interesting and definitely kind of a shift from how I’m used to thinking about things. I appreciate the stats, and also the commitment to not letting people underplay the implications of the stats. Hella respect.
You’re extremely welcome.
It’s depressing but also validating. 🫂
In general agreement with Li, just going to toss in that since you brought up privilege in comparison to your trans friends and haven’t mentioned being trans yourself– yes, cis privilege is a thing. That’s something cis queer folks have that is not “passing privilege.”
Cis privilege is for sure a thing.
Queerphobes aren’t generally great at distinguishing between us, so it might or might not confer different treatment on an individual level, and anti-trans legislation still splashes back on not only cis queer people but also cis straight people all the time because of the dystopian gender essentialism, but there’s still most definitely a systemic axis of privilege there.
Yeah, but…I’m not closeted. I’m queer as hell. But, nobody can determine that, only by looking at me. Random people on the street don’t know that I’m queer, cops don’t know that I’m queer, because being queer just isn’t always visible. I don’t go to any deliberate effort to hide my queerness; it just isn’t innately visible.
So, maybe privilege is a bad word for what I’m describing, given its meaning in other contexts, but I didn’t say it was a privilege, I said that it confers real privileges. I do consider it a privilege to not be profiled, and to not be a target of bigotry in public; not every queer person has access to that, and it just so happens that I don’t “look” queer, to the average bigot.
So, if there’s a better word for that than “privilege,” I’d love to learn it. But otherwise, I don’t think it would be fair to say that I’m closeted, because my presentation isn’t divergent enough from the presumed binary to attract queerphobic abuse to me in day-to-day life. I’m not pretending to be something I’m not for safety; I just happen to get extra safety, because my appearance and my presentation happen to not run afoul of bigoted conceptions, despite my otherwise-obvious queerness.
Again: if the “privilege” you’re experiencing would disappear if you told people who you really are, it is not privilege. A big part of privilege is not having to think about these things at all.
As opposed to: white privilege, class privilege, thin privilege… all of which can make being queer less dangerous. A lot less dangerous, for that first one.
You can feel like you are personally lucky and that you personally have things easier than other people if you really want, but by reinforcing the idea that passing privilege exists, you are throwing a lot of your queer siblings under the bus.
If I may… I’m a bi woman dating a bi man. We are mistaken for straight, but it’s more than that. We’ve never been afraid to kiss in public and never had to worry about possibly being unable to marry one day. I always considered that to be a kind of privilege I had, personally speaking. Yet I also always bristle at the implication that it’s “easier” to be bi than to be gay. Is this, do you think, some sort of internalized biphobia, or falling for false stereotypes? Maybe there’s a better word for what I’m describing than “privilege”?
(Coming from a genuine place, here, not trying to argue! I want to understand and analyze my own lines of thinking and make sure I’m not doing harm, even to myself.)
I think you feeling that way reflects how certain parts of the community have tried to make a BIG PUSH for “if you can hold hands with your partner in public, you’re privileged!!!”
And it’s not something that even begins to acknowledge the complications of being cis GNC, much less trans.
I linked above to a couple of surveys about community outcomes (and several more that are currently awaiting moderation) to challenge the false narrative that bi (and ace) people actually ~have it easier~ than gay people.
Again, I’ll just say: conditional acceptance that requires not telling the truth about who you are is not a privilege. It’s just a different kind of stress!
That makes sense. I’ll look into the links you posted. I’m ace too, so the “we have it easier” thing hits me on both fronts 🙂
Thank you for your response! I appreciate it very much.
❤️
No yeah very real, but the discourse gets suuuuuper dumb online. I can talk usefully about that stuff in real life but the “if you’re passing you’re basically not even queer” discourse online is insane, especially as it relates to bi people. It’s kinda stupid not bc it’s not real but bc for some reason our community likes to draw lines around people so that it can exclude them, and that can impact one’s feelings about the validity of their experienced queerness.
Joyce hasn’t even understood that taste is not objective.
Which is also an experience she had about Joe’s butt.
Fell thw part about Dorothy hotness was unnecessary. That is rather subjective.
I think “isn’t THAT hot” is specifically in response to Joyce’s belief that literally every person on earth would wanna fuck Dorothy, not a commentary on AK’s subjective feelings about Dorothy’s hotness. Cuz yeah, it is rather subjective, that’s the point.
Yeah I’ve pretty consistently had that feeling of “I dunno, I don’t really feel like I can say I’m queer cuz it’s never made my life worse”. It’s a very strange imposter syndrome.
Just never forget, that queerness being a source of strife and corruption and ruin, is fully the narrative that our oppressors forced on us, and on our whole civilization. The feelings are valid; but, unpacking those feelings, is also among the most effective acts of rebellion we can take against hetero-normative colonial patriarchy. The system of oppression loves it, when we further marginalize ourselves by choice, and not doing what the system wants out of spite, just so happens to also be really good for our senses of self.
☝️☝️☝️
Yeahhhhhh…that’s the one hand…but then on the other hand I’ve had friends who really heavily embraced being oppressed as being like, a core aspect of queer identity, and they care a lot more about being queer than I do, and they did not seem to feel like I counted. And that hand’s argument is less logically sound but it’s a lot more emotionally charged so it’s hard to dismiss it outright.
I mean I’ve also had queer friends who are like “nah it’s good that queer people don’t have to oppressed, that’s great and makes me happy”. And I DO call myself queer. It’s a lot snappier than giving people my whole shopping list of identities. But I do always have a lil thing in the back of my head that whispers “(but not as queer as people who’ve been oppressed for it)”.
imposter syndrome is a stubborn bongo, but it does get easier to silence with practice. it is an exhuasting, tedious grind of a battle. but it is one worth fighting.
No, I definitely get that! I just always like to make sure we all remember to treat the established order with the spite it deserves. Spite can, on rare occasions, be a useful force for good XD
It really does feel like that’s part of the issue going both directions — I was just reading a discussion where an author I like was saying how some of her fellow trans folks were MAD that she’s a successful children’s author and that she’s not REALLY a trans person since she can do that instead of writing angry political screeds all the time.
Not only do some people make “being oppressed” a core part of their identity, but some of THOSE folks go out of their way to try to make it contagious.
When you go from “being oppressed is part of my identity” to “being oppressed is my entire personality”.
(Not to make assumptions about Fuzzy’s social circle specifically, but as a white queer I feel like we’re especially vulnerable to it. The closer you get to “being queer is the only axis on which I am marginalized”, the more tempting it is to make that your entire source of identity.)
“This is my marked bingo square and I am going to claim the hell out of it!”
lol this is too real
Yeah. When I first let out my inner trans, I thought, wait, does this make me queer? And got imposter syndrome right there.
God yeah the “I’m not being oppressed” is such a big one for imposter Syndrome.
Joyce negotiating your identity is a perfectly normal thing when you’re queer and feeling like you aren’t X enough to be Y is even more normal. Every single time I’ve found a new aspect of who I am it’s come with major imposter syndrome, and every other queer person I’ve met has gone through the same.
I’m pretty sure this thing where you are feeling shitty about your right to be gay and accusing yourself of stolen valor is sufficient to qualify as a tortured gay. That kinda shit keeps people in the closet until their deathbed.
What the fuck does Joyce even fucking mean about stolen valor?!?!?!
It’s an analogy.
It’s a fucking bad one and an extremely poor choice from someone who wouldn’t know the first thing about
Yeah I’m pissed at coopting the term for a character that doesn’t even have decency to seek out Joe and talk to him
Stay mad until the universe ends, it’ll help.
Ngl its mad funny seeing someone losing it over the sanctity of “stolen valor” as a term, while having a butthole joke as their name
the eternal dichotomy of the internet, eh? like a modified version of the assassin’s creed. instead of “nothing is true, evrything is permitted” you get something along the lines of “nothing is srs, everything is cringe.” you get people acting like the latest patch notes to helldivers are the final, datkest days of the Kali Yuga before all is turned to ash… and you get people who cannot go five seconds into a pandemic without making a big chungus meme.
actually, Big Chungus Meme is my gender, today
Really weird thing to get mad about.
You are outrageously angry over an intentionally bad-faith reading of a fictional character, but I’ll engage: she means that she feels like she’s pretending to be something she’s not, and therefore undeserving of recognition for the kinds of struggles queer people go through.
I’m not exactly sure what you’re specifically mad at, but it might help to take a break from DOA/webcomics/the internet for a while.
I’m not sure either but I am pissed so somethings clearlyvhit me right in a trigger point.
You’re probably right, I will
Joyce is FAR from the first person to use “stolen valor” self-deprecatingly to mean something like “I’m getting credit for doing/being something I don’t feel like I deserve” outside of a military context.
And why on earth would anyone using the term in that way piss you off so badly anyway?
Something something military I’m assuming?
an unsurprising number of people get very attached to identity terms, when their relationship with that part of their identity is a direct source of life-altering traumas for them.
Oh sure. I understand being explosively mad at Stolen Valor (as in lying about one’s military service to get social or material benefits), I just don’t quite understand thinking the term “stolen valor” means that exclusively — it hasn’t for a hot minute.
It’s also a callback to her I was heroically gay. I should get a medal”> to Raidah
This feels like a dangerously self-hurting path to walk. Invalidating your identity because life didn’t kick you in the jaw enough times.
Kind of reminds me of that one Brooklyn 99 storyline where Holt was gearing up to figuratively annihilate that one young gay cop in black gay cop organization elections because he didn’t go through all the shit that Holt did. Until another character pointed out to him “But isn’t he what you Wanted to happen? Someone who didn’t have to suffer all that you did because of who they are? Isn’t this the happy future that you wanted?”
Bisexual. The correct term is bisexual, Joyce. And Dorothy even admitted that on the Kinsey scale she’s a 2- into guys mostly, but will fall deeply for one girl- Joyce.
Oh, and Joyce is right about one thing… she IS most definitely cheating. On Dorothy. Because she never specifically told Joe that it’s over, and that is most definitely going to cause a wedge between her and Dotty when Joe comes back with flowers, semi-confident that he can still be Joyce’s side piece.
I think calling it “most definitely cheating” is a strech.
Dorothy assumed that Joyce was as quick and cruel to Joe in breaking up with him as she was to Walky. (Remember, she LAUGHED in Walky’s face, saying she won.) I can totally see Joe coming in with flowers, Dorothy getting between them telling Joe that Joyce made it clear she wants nothing to do with him and she’ll call campus security if he goes near her again, but Joyce is too awestruck by the gesture that she doesn’t get behind Dotty. Joe tells Dotty that Joyce promised him a talk to iron things out, Dotty is shocked by this revelation, and makes an ultimatum- her or Joe. Joyce sputters and Dotty storms off.
Well you “seeing it clear” doesn’t really mean anything, outside of you having a very specific bias.
Pff. Ultimatums are easy. “Me or them” okay, the one who’s not holding theirself hostage instead of talking to me like an adult.
Oh we’re going to need Danny to make a clever ukulele song to educate all the baby bis.
Someone in the fandom made a Superhero song for Walky back in the It’s Walky days that still lives in my ear rent free.
What I am saying is I am here for a fan musician making a Danny social commentary concept album. Like Eddie Vedder’s Ukelele Songs.
With respect to the alt-text: I am fascinated with the fact that “sad girl crying in snow” has been a verbal meme for at least a decade, but there are no online references to it. It seems to inhabit non-indexed parts of the internet like image boards, comment sections, chat rooms, and discord channels. So people say it and reference it, but if you do a search for it nothing comes up.
You need to drop the “crying.” The meme is “Sad Girl In Snow”, there’s no crying in base- err, Megatokyo.
Where it all began:
https://megatokyo.com/strip/75
See also 374, 379, and 142
Even then, I don’t get any meme references in a search. Just stock photos and the like.
Ah, so it’s a Megatokyo reference! When I first encountered the phrase it was with “crying” in it and I didn’t know that was an addition, but even without the additional word, nothing turns up about the phrase on search engines. It is truly magical, a meme that has escaped categorization.
I vaguely recall, as someone who was there at the inception, that it might be a visual trope that shows up a lot in an old visual novel/manga/anime/etc, Kanon. I have no further knowledge of it besides reading about it in this context, so I cannot confirm; however, the wiki article does note:
“The events of the story occur during winter, and since it often snows periodically over the course of the entire story, the city is always presented covered in a layer of snow.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanon_(video_game)
Kanon and similar works were major influences on Megatokyo, yes.
Someone needs to teach this poor girl the word Bisexual.
Wait, why hasn’t Dorothy? Girl’s familer with the Kinsey scale.
She knows the word. She can rattle off the dictionary definition on command.
Has she internalizwd what it MEANS? No.
Also, Joyce seems to be very all or nothing. Now that she’s with Dorothy, OBVIOUSLY she is and has ALWAYS 100% homosexual gay and has never ever ever even once in her entire life been even slightly attracted to a boy, NOT EVEN ONE OR ONCE, because such a thing would betray her TRUE AND FOREVER DESTINED LOVE with Dorothy.
Isn’t she saying right here that she’s only technically gay, that it’s just Dorothy and of course anybody would be attracted to Dorothy. That doesn’t seem to deny her attraction to boys.
Yeah, but she’s also leaving out the several women in the cast who she’s externalized obvious and clear sexual attraction toward, because those aren’t right in front of her, right now. Billie and Sal are the two obvious ones who come to mind, but I could easily be forgetting more.
Of course she is. That Dorothy is her only exception is clearly bullshit, but that doesn’t mean it’s not what she’s saying, rather than that she’s completely gay and never ever been attracted to a boy as anonymsly says above.
The ultimate point is, she just can’t accept the possibility that she will actually feel sexual and romantic attraction to anybody who isn’t her destined soulmate spouse life partner, cum sublimation of her formerly-ironclad, codependent attachment to God. She never accepted the possibility that she could want to be with anybody but her future spouse, in any way, and now the possibility that her relationship with Dorothy could be in any way transient, or possible for her to fuck up, is devouring her on the inside.
So, yeah. She is totally bullshitting herself.
I mean, that makes sense, but I don’t think it fits with what she’s saying here. Doesn’t it rely on her meaning “I’m gay (not bi), and thus wasn’t and can’t really be attracted to Joe or anyone”, when I’m reading her as saying “I’m not really gay, I’m straight with Dorothy as my only exception”.
That’s bullshit too, but it’s different bullshit.
Oh my sweet Summer Bi-Young Adult.
…..<..>
The comments are going to be just wonderful. 😐
I mean yeah so far its chill.
Joyce, you are as gay as a bisexual woman!
Imagine a world in which we had a specific word for ice cream flavors that aren’t vanilla. Like, one huge conglomerate word, that labels ice cream as either vanilla or “other” in the same way that we label either straight or queer.
Sounds crazy, right? Vanilla’s just *a* flavor. And sure, you see it most often, and sometimes someone’s covered it in chocolate, and sometimes someone’s put nuts on it, but it’s still essentially vanilla. You can cover strawberry or mocha chip with chocolate, too.
I get that theres a large group of people saying it’s horrible and wrong to be anything but straight, and it’s probably that adversity that causes us to have names for “not straight” in the same way that we don’t have words for “not vanilla.”
I wonder how long it’ll be until we as a society don’t need catch-all words like this anymore. I mean, right now, 100%, it’s how we identify ourselves and let others know they’re not alone… but in a future where having a dick and liking people who have dicks is as remarkable as having a Nintendo and liking people who have a Nintendo, what use would words like that have, other than to divide us?
How long, do you think? How many generations?
Do you think we’ll ever get there?
I imagine a future where an archeology class, 10,000 years from now, are pouring over a shipment of comics that were preserved by some UPS van falling into a frozen lake or something, and going, ‘Ah, so their societal class was constantly in flux depending on whose genitals interfaced with whose.’ Also being genuinely confused about BlowJobCat and wondering why a feline pleasure droid was sitting in front of an elementary school.
I don’t think erasure of identity terms is desirable, so I hope never. The grouping– wider community beyond one’s specific identity– I could see fading in a perfectly accepting society. There will always be this history, so I hope the terms and understanding of that aren’t lost.
So that is, it’s possible that “not vanilla” would lessen, but that wouldn’t be the same as losing the terms “chocolate,” “mint chip,” “rocky road.”
Humans want and even need to label things; imagine having to consciously evaluate the qualities of every single object you interact with to determine what it is. (You would likely have no spoons/cognitive runtime/etc left to do anything else.) One failure mode of this, however, is when we do not re-evaluate things in response to new data; another is refusing to accept the possibility that a thing can exist in multiple categories at the same time, particularly when one internalizes the metaphor of putting things in physical boxes.
I wish humans would finally shut up and just be with the person they love, no matter which gender.
Or people.
… Does Joyce genuinely not know that bisexuals are a thing?
She knows, but she doesn’t necessarily understand.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/murdering/
We haven’t seen Becky in a while have we.
The truest sign of being a bisexual is actually insane crippling imposter syndrome so all in all Joyce is crushing it right now
Me: I want every possible genital configuration, and several impossible ones, rubbed directly on my face so I can slobber all over them.
Also me: Am I really bi/pan? Maybe I’m just delusional about my undying thirst for all primary sexual characteristics.
It’s like the biggest thing tying the bis and the aces together. Well, that and massive rejection from within the queer community
Real
Is the alt text a Megatokyo reference??
Yes.
https://megatokyo.com/strip/1433
The alt-text feels pithy today, “Gay sad Joyce in snow” but there is no snow. And maybe no sadness, or maybe no gayness. Just Joyce thinking ‘Shouldn’t I feel bad about feeling so good?’ Maybe it feels like Stolen Valor because it was so easy to cross this line like there was no line at all. Maybe you don’t love someone because they match your checklist, maybe they match your checklist because you love them and you’re not under contract to define yourself as any one thing.
But “defining herself as any one thing” has been Joyce’s life since infancy. Recall that when she first arrived at IU it was with the intent to snag a husband, and get a degree in education so she could home-school their seven beautiful children. She may take more than a day or two to shift paradigms.
On a less commented on element, this may explain part of why Joyce is thinking that being gay is “heroic.” Because she can’t conceive of the idea that gay people can live fulfilling happy lives. It’s all misery porn (which Becky would be annoyed by). She’s very much of the “Tragic Queer Person” trope.
Ironically, for all that Becky would be mad about it, part of why Becky is so mad at Joyce is she DID get to coast past so many of the difficulties she did with Hank.
Dead-on. She really is a product of her upbringing 🙁
It’s easy to take the girl out of the church. Not so easy to take the church out of the girl.
You can’t remove that element from Joyce’s story but I think this is more Joyce’s college experience causing her to associate being gay with a massive struggle that involved standing up to armed gunmen.
It can.
But it didn’t in Joyce’s case and ticked Becky off in a backhanded way.
The church gave her the guilt complex, college just taught her new things to feel guilty about.
The moment the prolonged happy chemicals go down , paired with a somewhat unhappy situation, the mind goes to illogical or exaggerated thoughts and conclusions.
The current book title is gonna be uncomfortably apt the whole way through, ain’t it.
Frustrating our expectations, Becky won’t appear at all. It’ll be everyone else the title applies to.
“A person talking to themselves is completely unrealistic”
*me an autistic chuckling in the background*
…sure, if you combine being autistic with being extroverted, I guess…
If I’m alone outside, I will go on whole monologues
Also while I’m inside.
Like right now.
same here LOL
Wait is your mind neat and quiet enough that you can have quiet internal thoughts? That are like, words? If I try to do that without at least mouthing them out they get hit by a brain bus or something and get mangled. It’s like Frogger extreme mode
Brains are quite individual. I know someone who has no internal thoughts, sounds or visualisations!
I can’t visualise (except in dreams) but I do have a constant internal monologue that never. stops. talking. It is coherent, but I would not call it quiet, exactly! Getting them to come out smoothly is tricky, they’re at the wrong speed for speech and the act of speaking derails the thoughts.
I will definitely blurt out the odd phrase or sing and hum without realising it, or get in little repetitive loops of nonsense phrases, especially when alone.
Frogger extreme mode sounds rough in a whole other way.
I don’t only talk to myself, sometimes I recite character dialogue from comics or animation ideas I have in character talking to myself from the perspective of those characters.
Impressive, Joyce. I’ve rarely seen someone so quickly twist their own emotional healthiness around to unhealthiness. You should get some sort of badge or something.
I’m glad you don’t have this kind of anxiety disorder but this kind of mental gymnastics to make yourself feel bad is a little too real
Yeah, this one is very relatable …
Good lord this was too long coming. Thank the gods we’re seeing at least *some* introspection from Joyce.
Wow, you miss a lot when you start skipping the comments most days. I remember a lot of people saying Joyce needed to be more introspective about, say, the effect this was all having on Joe, or her accidental hijacking of the protest. I missed the part where people were saying she needed to be more introspective about whether she was even gay if she wasn’t angsty about it.
Neighbor, it’s been so long since Joyce shared her thoughts with the audience that she could introspect about her choice of underwear for the day and I’d call it a win.
I don’t think anyone called specifically for this particular flavor of angst, but there was a lot of “We haven’t seen Joyce’s thoughts about realizing she’s into women at all”. If this is where those thoughts go, it’s where those thoughts go.
Look I want introspection about literally anything atp. This girl has been so No Thoughts Head Empty since that kiss
and let’s be honest, there are lots of people who would (and do) choose “blissful unthinking euphoria” over constantly overthinking things, spiraling, having to deal with intrusive thoughts and/or listen to a critical voice in their heads for most of their waking hours, etc etc in a heartbeat.
(fortunately, those are not the only two options! but to a certain style of thinking, it’s very easy to believe they are.)
I mean, I can empathize – the first time Hillary kissed me (because I wasn’t picking up on any of her signals), I was kind of “no thoughts, only vibes” for a couple of days, and we weren’t even in close proximity for most of that time.
Oh Joyce, you are such a mess.
hmm, what to be upset about first… that Joyce bi-erases herself, or that she thinks she’s not truly gay because she’s fine…
Come on, rookie. In this comment section, we can always be upset about multiple things at the same time! XD
bi discovery arc? maybe? one of those spoiler panels that willis posted a while ago for this storyline features joyce doing a goofy dance in a bi-colored flannel listening to music and i thought to myself “idk what song is actually going to be playing here, but i’m imagining she’s just learned about bisexuality and is listening to ‘gettin bi’ from crazy ex-girlfriend” and this strip is bringing me one step closer to that being reality so
This is Di erasure!
As in Dina is gay (as far as Joyce knows) and not sad and tortured about it.
Also there’s the polycule of girls down her hall, at least one of whom is Joyce’s rival for excessive cheerfulness.
Joyce’s black coat and navy bottoms are clashing hard but Dorothy insisted on the black coat
That’s why she made sure to monologue after the first panel; the resulting close-up kept the navy bottoms out of view.
I can’t wait for them to have the bi conversation because Joyce can declare herself gay all she wants, Dorothy won’t do that. Also instead of Danny or Ruth, Dorothy is the best person for her to talk it through I would say 😉
Oh Come on, Joyce. You were doing sooooo well there for a while.
“I’m not a Goth Gay, like Ethan. Or Punk Gay, like Becky. I’m just a Pretender Gay.”
A lot of people feel that way about The Pretenders 🎸
What if I say I will never surrender?
What if I say I’m not like the others?
Man I can’t remember what show had the characters form a Pretenders cover band and called themselves “The Pretend Pretenders”.
The Family Guy show? (vaguely recall…)
Suck it, poll. I didn’t see you until today, which is objectively Not Thanksgiving!
Omg what???? Introspection???? THOUGHTS???????
Huh, I guess we can sneak introspection now instead of on the revelation because too much is happening. I even kind of like Joyce going “I’m gay. Huh. Maybe I’m just kind of… straight with exceptions?” Which would lead to a very fun conversation with Robin if that ever comes up.
Do you want another Jennifer Billingsworth? This is how you get another Jennifer Billingsworth.
Totally normal reaction.
Joyce: “It feels like cheating. I don’t know. Let’s ask Joe about it.”
Somebody needs to explain to Joyce the idea of bisexuality, I am fairly certain she knows basically nothing about it.
It’s been explained (mostly by Leslie), but Joyce currently cannot/refuses to accept that anyone she personally knows – especially herself – is or might be.
For that matter, Joyce is iffy on things that are not binary or existing in multiple categories in general.
ohhhhhh, Joyce. Oh sweetie. Oh you. gods this resonates with a lot of my experiences growing up. “Sure, I like *kissing* girls, but I’m still straight because I would Date a woman or be in a relationship with one.” *falls madly in love with one of my best friends* “Huh. well. okay. huh.”
looking forward to her navigating the ups and downs of shedding all this internalized bs that to be gay/queer is to be miserable <3 <3 ___> @ my antecedent)
(typo, should be “because I *wouldn’t* Date a woman” in that internalized self denying xD the current queer too strong to type that clearly!)
oh wow, after exchanging zero words with becky, joyce understands her better than most of the comments section
They both understand each other really well, which is a huge part why they’re both constantly so cagey around one another.
i meant in this matter specifically. she seems to be arriving at the idea that its more than just jealousy of her own accord which i didnt expect
I get her thinking right now. At one point I was wondering if I was a transwoman. Straight woman, not gay man. It happens when we start to accept ourselves. The rationalizing.
(trans woman is two words btw!)
joyce i’m gay as fuck and it’s cool i give you permission to use the term gay for yourself
Gay? Whatever happened to Bi-? Bisexuality is a thing. Always has been, always will be.
No one said it wasn’t. Joyce is allowed to use whatever word for herself she feels like using, plenty of people all around the queer spectrum use the word ‘gay’.
Fuck taking time to figure out your identity, she better self label with the correct words right now or i will fucking snap!
Grins.
Y’all do realize she means “cheating” like cheating at a game, right?
You know that wordplay exists.
Also remember that words like heterosexual, homosexual, lesbian, bisexual are defined words. Gay is a ‘use’ word and therefore smewhat loose in meaning. Queer is looser in meaning.
So is the server clock actually this far behind the hour, or is something screwy going on on my end?