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see BECKY gets it, let Ruth do whatever doesn’t end up with a suicide pact, lesbian or otherwise
Ruth’s been in the service industry for mere weeks, but she already has it down pat.
Whoops, this wasn’t meant to be a reply, and I meant Becky not Ruth.
So this entire comment has been a disaster.
Never before have I seen a commenter so in need of a device that allows travel through time and relative dimension in space!
Fixed point in time. Nothing you can do. I am so, so sorry.
That’s a screw-up that you won’t fix with a sonic screwdriver XD Don’t worry, we’ve all been there.
I think it’s been more than a few weeks, and she has transferable skills from earlier life experiences.
Yeah, pretty sure Becky got the job before the time skip so she’s been working for at least 3 months, probably more like 4.
Becky was hired in early October. It’s been 3 months.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-7/01-glower-vacuum/dangit/
Presumably she quit in order to handle Robin’s campaign, though.
…on the other hand, of course, Galasso isn’t that dissimilar in his hiring procedures here than he was in Shorpacked, so it was probably easy for her to get her job back.
……actually, I think Shortpacked!Galasso was a more responsible boss than DoA!Galasso…
I mean Becky’s “job” as Robin’s campaign manager was essentially just tweeting stuff that made Robin more popular. How time consuming could that really have been? I’m not sure if she actually quit Galasso’s but I figure it would also be really easy to do both.
That was a big part of it, but ahe was involved in other ways… Appearing at campaign rallys, doing interviews, etc.
Becky explicitly expressed that she was not quitting Galasso’s. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2019/comic/book-9-comic/03-sometimes-the-sky-was-so-far-away/gig/
Wiser than Dorothy on that day. Impressive. Most impressive. We will watch her career with great interest.
Yes she did. We saw her lovingly picking the sausage off Joyce’s pizza while her coworker told her how that’s sweet but definitely a hygeine issue. (Or whatever the complaint was I’m not doing an archive trawl for it sorry)
Specifically, a health regulations violation.
All she needed was some tongs or something.
It’s possible that waitstaff just aren’t supposed to mess with the food period – tongs or not. Not super clear on the law.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/02-everything-youve-ever-wanted/order-2/
awww, but lesbian suicide pacts are fun
/s
at least in the end the pact downgraded to just regular lesbian relationship so that was nice while it lasted
I still hope Billie and Ruth eventually get back together under healthier circumstances, I really liked them together
Same, even though I’m actually liking Ruth/Jason ATM. I think it’s partially because we never actually saw what happened to break the camel’s back– the last time we saw them pre-breakup, they seemed pretty happy together, all things considered, so them breaking up during the time skip feels really abrupt.
Granted, Becky seems to be implying that Ruth made at least one suicide attempt during the skip, so that might have had something to do with it.
Not usually a Becky fan but hoping Joyce will atleast get a semi wakeup call from the realization that she’s been so hyperfocused on someone not dating the “right gender” she never considered whether they were actually happy or not. The fact that Joyce didn’t even think of how Becky’s mom could make Ruth a sensitive topic beyond “girls are best!” highlights how her desire to be right is affecting her judgment.
The “not betrayed by my bestie” line is a good knife twist, too.
The “in christ” part was pretty unnecessary, but I’ll give it to her because it was a great line.
I think it’s also a callback to the first time we see Becky and Joyce post-skip.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-11/01-this-bright-millennium/andwereback/
“Bestie in Christ” needs to be added as a Facebook relationship status.
The “in christ” part actually makes the whole thing a distinct lie. Joyce was never Becky’s best friend “in christ”. She was her best friend, and IMMEDIATELY started questioning “christ” when all she’d been told about “christ” meant that she needed to disavow Becky.
Yep, this. This is why I hate Becky’s reaction to this. BECKY is allowed to find a way of faith/belief that works for her, and Joyce is nothing but supportive to the detriment of her own personal faith.
Joyce changes parts of her faith for reasons OTHER than “supporting Becky being right”? Welp.
I mean, yeah, you’re not far off.
Becky thinks Joyce did what she did: she found the important stuff and everything else naturally faded away, except Becky wanted to learn the important stuff and I’m not entirely unconvinced she only learned what was important when Joyce took her in, because suddenly her oldest and dearest friend was the only part of her life who loved her.
Mostly the more I look back over things, the more it strikes me that Becky’s always been selfish and boundary-breaking about her friendship with Joyce, and I’m kinda more and more hoping they never reconcile and everyone eventually recognizes that Becky’s boundary-breaking and just-as-much-as-Joyce need to be right are pretty goddamn toxic.
Becky’s always been selfish and boundary-breaking about her friendship with Joyce
She has, but with the caveats that:
– Joyce repeatedly puts Becky’s feelings above her own and doesn’t rely on her for anything, which I think is because Joyce views Becky as vulnerable and needing to be protected. She has, over the course of the whole series, opened up about her own trauma exactly one time; being attacked at the party, and even then Sarah had to actually say it. Very tellingly, Becky then immediately offered support, apologized for kissing her a few days ago because she suddenly realized it could have been extremely triggering, and then set about organizing the dorm party so Joyce could get that fun experience within a safe environment. The only other time Joyce expressed vulnerability around Becky it was at Dina’s birthday party over Joyce’s dying beliefs, and Becky handled it like an assclown because it’s the one topic she’s not mature enough to handle.
– Becky is boundary breaking, except that boundary is something Joyce never set up or could think to set up. They’ve never argued, let alone fought, about anything in their lives prior to this, because they were raised to think in lockstep and then they turned on everything they ever knew instead of each other. At any other point in time Joyce would have been extremely delighted for Becky to pop in unannounced, but I don’t even think either of them are cognizant of how codependent they are.
Nobody perfectly understands each other like a reader does a fictional character. Miscommunications and emotions make relationships complicated. Becky hasn’t gotten to read the comic like we have
Mmmm, even from a in-universe perspective, I can expect Becky to notice that Joyce has literally risked her life and lost her faith SOLELY to support Becky.
Granted, Becky has shit all over the idea that Joyce is allowed to reject more of their former shared faith than Becky did on at least one occasion (with a side order of “my trauma is bigger than yours so shut up”.
I mean Becky isn’t arguing against Joyce’s new faith. Not that Joyce is leaving any room for argument, but Becky certainly isn’t taking issue with her believing there’s no God. It’s probably more the nonstop judgmental preaching that makes it impossible for anyone to talk to her for more than five minutes that keeps Becky from being able to talk to her for more than five minutes.
Becky’s taken issue with literally every baby step Joyce has taken away from faith.
Depending on what you mean by “taking issue” I guess. Joyce’s beliefs is not a subject open to debate or a source of conflict that stops them being able to talk to each other. Only Becky’s.
I think it’s hard to be mad at Becky for boundary-breaking with Joyce, because the Becky/Joyce relationship never had any boundaries. “No boundaries” is how their specific relationship has always been, ever since they were kids. Joyce never told her “no, this is bad, don’t do this”.
Partly because neither of them was ever allowed to set boundaries or even to think that boundaries were things one could set personally. Only set by authority figures (or in Becky’s case, established only by defense mechanisms to hide the fact that boundaries existed.)
@thejeff: Good point. Furthermore, their religious never allow any expression of doubt or difference of personal belief, so they could never discuss their actual beliefs and still don’t understand that they never did believe the same things about God etc.
Thank you! I’m on Joyce’s side on this. She may be flailing around after putting a soul-killing amount of effort her whole life into denying herself the right to question authority… but Becky has been a self-centered jerk to her this whole time and kept sticking the knife in every one of her “friends” constantly. Joyce could have really used some emotional support from her so-called bestie while her whole worldview was crashing down but knew Becky, like everyone else from her old life, would not allow her have independent thoughts or doubts. No wonder Joyce is finally lashing out. And why is Becky constantly butting in where she is not invited?
I was 100% with Becky up to that point, but that struck me as pretty unnecessary. Then again, Joyce has been pretty insufferable lately, so I’m inclined to give Becky a pass on at least a little pettiness.
Very thoughtful to put that hotline there Willis!
This was suprisingly peaceful compared to what I expected. I’m hoping Joyce will spend enough time with Dorothy to learn: what fights to pick and when, and understanding that some people believe in god(s) and still use science and that’s ok.
Basically Joyce needs to master the art of “Not being a major asshole.” So, how many years will that take?
I dunno, right now I’m kinda rooting for Dorothy to decide, “Screw it; definitely going to Yale.”
…Gravatar does not check out.
You would be the expert.
Right there with you.
Under no circumstances should Dorothy turn down Yale to stay with Joyce, but Joyce being a jerk will certainly make the separation easier
Hrmm. This is character development for Becky I’m just wondering when she learned it? Maybe during one of those kidnappings. That really grows a person.
I think she would’ve given a more lighthearted reply about how dating women is awesome but Ruth can do what she likes. But she is angry at Joyce so the more serious side came out.
Is it? Keep in mind that Becky is a very performative person, her behaviour deliberately exaggerated
I was speaking of the fact that Becky even recognizes bisexuality as a thing. It was a long time ago (for us) but she used to not know that and it was one of the more annoying aspects of her personality for me.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/sneaking/
But it’s nice to she that she internalized a lesson like that at somepoint. It’s maybe ironic now that Joyce seems to be the one who has regressed on this perspective suddenly with her newfound atheism, or maybe it’s just never been brought up until now.
She learned in two storylines. She tells Joyce shortly after getting together with Dina that ‘turns out liking both is a thing’. Patreon bonus strips revealed she learned this from Sierra who told her she liked both.
Aw. I would’ve actually liked to have seen that. Curse you patreon or more accurately my lack of money!
If the books are more affordable for you, it’s in book six iirc.
She learned that a good ways back
You’re right but also you gave me an excuse to revisit a classic Joyce face so you’re basically +2 right
I mean, she just got over that initial rabid “LESBIAN LESBIAN LESBIAN” baby gay phase and has settled into comfort in her personal identity. It’s a natural progression of the coming out process.
Becky is the one who actively sabotaged Ruth and Billie from getting back together in Leslie’s class because they’re terrible together. So I don’t really see it as that much of character development.
Many years of hiding her inner self from her dad and church.
Classic Becky is more popular than New Becky.
I’ve heard a rumor that New Becky is just a marketing gimmick, so that when they rerelease Classic Becky it will be a big deal.
I’m waiting for Becky Max
Actually, it turned out that New Becky taste-tested better than Classic, but then when they tried to change over, people were afraid of change and didn’t want to switch.
**pauses and pointedly looks at Joyce**
Weird – it looks like all the comments are timestamped about ten minutes off?
Fourteen.
Site went down a while back and knocked the clocks out of sync
Yeah, the server time is kinda borked.
Happens every year after the change to standard time, the server doesn’t “like” dropping an hour to have a 25 hour day and screws up the timestamps for months.
Maybe the Swedish Chef got to it.
Yeah it’s definitely off by at least a few minutes.
I really hope this gets Joyce to have a wake up call. Becky doesn’t see the world as black and white. She doesn’t need Ruth to validate her homosexuality. She doesn’t see bisexuality as a betrayal of queerness. She’s able to recognize that personal well being is more important.
Meanwhile Joyce is, frankly, the same as she was at the start of term. Shun and condemn anyone who doesn’t agree with her. Freak out when someone’s sexuality doesn’t fit your description. She just tried to “save” Ruth the way she tried to “save” Ethan.
Joyce just replaced her fundamentalist close mindedness with an incredibly ignorant concept of “science” based on, what, a single semester of it? At most?
Compared to Dina who has likely been studying science since she first learned to speak/read or Dorothy who has at minimum 12+ years of science education and has clearly spent time researching and thinking about faiths and atheism.
Seriously. Joyce dug in her heels at the notion she was going to change so she’s changed as little as possible, in spite of what seem (to her) to be huge idological shifts.
I think it will take more than this. Joyce is at heart a good and loving person. But that fundamentalism she grew up in isn’t going to disappear overnight. It is going to affect how she reacts even if she has rejected it. I think it is realistic she is going through an angry and obnoxious phase. Not fun, but realistic.
Basically this.
Her brain at the moment is still a galaxy of cobwebs, and she’s done not but remove the black hole that used to be at the center.
All the cobwebs are still there, pervading her emotions and thoughts, causing her AGONY.
Yup. Her brain is still un-clenching, so for now she’s just flipped all the religion-tied variables in her head from TRUE to FALSE and applying them to the old fundie playbook.
I mean it’d be easy to blame fundamentalism but maybe Joyce also enjoys lording over other people period.
Do you genuinely believe that?
Yes. It doesn’t mean Joyce is an innately bad person – but yes she certainly takes a certain joy out of being “right” while others are “wrong” and bases part of her self image on who she agrees with. The first thing to shake Joyce’s newfound atheism was the realization she believes the same things as Dina.
Joyce pathologically seeks out authority figures to follow. That doesn’t really hit me as “wanting to be right,” that’s more like relying on someone else to tell her what’s right.
It’s a good thing she has Dorothy then.
If it were true.
I mean, yes actually.
Dorothy has been extremely good at questioning Joyce’s preconceived notions in the past because all of Joyce’s problems were thus: I want to be a good person, but the things I believe want me to not to be. What should I do?
That Joyce began today bragging to Dorothy speaks that she was looking for Dorothy to be proud of her, and Dorothy can’t really work her magic the same way because the topic is more complex than something she can meaningfully handle.
I call Dorothy boring a lot, I less frequently say she’s a bit too effortlessly good for a series about characters engaging in ruinous failure, and I’m started to massage that a bit. Dorothy isn’t a mature, reasonable, perfect genius, she just looks like one because she spent most of her time with Walky, Joyce and Becky. She had a healthy and supportive upbringing by parents who put a lot of effort into encouraging her, she’s someone who wants to do as much good as possible for as many people as she can, but for once in her life she does not have the answer to Joyce’s ills, and I don’t think she understands that yet.
I wasn’t asking you, but sure, let’s just throw out everything we know about this character over a decade+ of the comic’s run because it’s easier to dismiss and condemn her that way than it is to grapple with the complex fallout of what happens when you shatter the worldview of someone like Joyce.
Respectfully, I don’t think that’s what Z meant. I think Z meant that this is a characteristic of Joyce that has always existed (at least, as they see her), not a condemnation of Joyce as a whole. They did say it doesn’t mean Joyce is a bad character, just that there’s a part of her that enjoys being ‘right’.
And I don’t agree with that characterization.
You’re falling into the Viewer-Context Fallacy. It’s only been a few months for Joyce.
I think this might be a bit of a disservice to Joyce’s overall character arc from essentially the start of the comic. I don’t really think she’s just switched from one form of self righteous condemnation to another minus the toxic interpretation of religion.
Clearly while Becky and Joyce both had the same base of religious education they internalized it differently. Joyce was always more rigid than Becky which is why she was even sent to IU in the first place as the “best of them” or whatever her parents said. So when challenged her beliefs just broke instead of Becky who probably just to survive as a lesbian in a fundamentalist household that condemned her very existence, had to be more flexible by design.
So Joyce is essentially backsliding. Going through and entire reset because she has no base for her ideology anymore is just leaning on “science” or whatever this flimsy psuedo atheism hatchet job of ideology is because she hasn’t actually finished forming a new one. While Becky’s never broke in the first place so of course she seems further along.
So yeah when you say Dina has been studying actual, factual, science to back up her logic you are correct. But you can’t forget Joyce is essentially starting from scratch again after abandoning 18 years of bad information.
I think a big part of the reason for this blowup is that she’s been struggling with her faith so much, and she finally found someone she could commiserate with, and just so happened to be walked in on by her childhood best friend.
People mocked and teased her for being so devoted TO her Christianity even as she learned and developed. And then she has (1) moment she can just vent and sort of go along with it. Because lets be real, everyone has had those venty annoyed talked about shit like this.
And she DID try to apologize, and I get why Becky is upset. But when it boils down to it, it seems like Becky won’t forgive her unless she takes back what she said about it. And Joyce means it- she was always more rigidly in that setting because she had so little external input to make her flexible.
Becky existing had to be more flexible in it by nature to survive.
It’s a bit of an impasse, and I’d be annoyed and dig my heels in too if I was made fun of for something, changed it and was openly talking about it, and those same people came at me about my changed beliefs and how I should apologize for them.
Because that’s what it boils down to. They want Joyce to apologize for venting about her own stupidity upon realizing what she had been indoctrinated in it.
Becky talking about how ‘she didn’t think those were the parts Joyce thought were important’ is missing the key value of Joyce thinking ALL the parts were important. Not just picking and choosing in the way Becky had to do.
And it comes down to the fact that in part, the reason Joyce did lose her faith ties directly into Becky coming out, not that I blame her, the closet sucks, but I can empathize with Joyce being frustrated that her friend who in part made her realize the messed up church they were BOTH raised in, not only is clinging to it despite it being something that traumatized them both in different ways, but is actively showing she won’t forgive her unless she basically believes in it again.
Oh boy that is a wall of text I am so sorry.
Also inb4 yes I know I’m defensive of Joyce here but I love all the characters. They’re just frustrating sometimes lmao.
Well put, Rabbit.
I don’t think Becky wants Joyce to believe in it again. I think she just wants Joyce to say “I don’t believe in it anymore but I don’t think you’re stupid for believing in it and I don’t think I’m better than you because I don’t believe in it.” Becky said Joyce was only sorry that Becky heard her, and I don’t think Becky was wrong with that interpretation. That’s a non-apology. I don’t think Dina or Dorothy think that they’re better than Becky, but Joyce seems to think that
This is my interpretation, with a whole lot of miscommunication and hurt feelings added in to make sure things escalate. It’s super frustrating to see people look past that interpretation or reject it out of hand in favor of “Becky is a stalker who wants to stifle her friend’s growth and escape from the Horror That Is Christianity and this makes her a Terrible Person.”
I do think Becky wants Joyce to believe in it again. That she’s scared and hurt by losing her sister in Christ.
That part they’d be able to work through if they could get past the mocking her and thinking she’s stupid part.
I think so too. Especially given that she couldn’t even deal with Joyce believing in a slightly different version of Heaven.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-11/05-as-long-as-its-free/cake-2/
One of the problems with Becky is it’s sometimes hard to know when she’s being silly and when she’s not. Like this is the sort of exchange I might’ve had with friends and the cake thing would be me being silly. We also know she’s mourning her mother and comforting herself with the idea that she’ll someday get to see her and spend time with her again. So there’s a good chance she’s not truly trying to force Joyce into believing there will be cake in heaven so much as putting her foot down and saying, in her way, “I need this because this is a source of comfort for me.”
Yeah, I’m looking forward to Becky getting more screen time because I just don’t see it – even if you’re being silly about the way you say something, doesn’t mean you’re not serious about it – but I might see better what you mean with more examples. In that comic, at least, I took my cues from Joyce, who seemed to respond as though it was serious.
And I don’t think she was trying to force Joyce into believing there will be cake in heaven, but just… refusing to accept that Joyce would believe otherwise, or at the very least, refusing to consider that what she believes might not be 100% true.
I think religion and faith are Very Serious Business for Joyce. Until she was with Liz, I can’t remember an instance of her ever mocking either, even after she lost her faith. There are people for whom that’s true and who will take any mention of faith or religion seriously, even when made in jest,and I can very easily see both Hank and Carol drilling that mindset into Joyce. I think that’s what happened: Joyce didn’t take Becky seriously because she believed Becky was 100% serious, but because to her it wasn’t a matter to be silly about.
I don’t really see an appreciable difference between trying to force someone into believing something and refusing to accept that they believe otherwise. I don’t think you’re wrong to say that Becky didn’t consider she might not be 100% right, but I still think that goes back to this belief being one based on her need for it to be a comfort rather than it being doctrinally correct.
The difference I was trying to convey there was the difference between “you need to believe this, I will stay here repeating this until you say you agree with me” and “okay, cool, so you believe this (and I will tune out you saying otherwise)”.
I can see her needing this belief for comfort. I think, because I’m not religious and never have been, I just don’t understand how that need for comfort ties into her relationship with her religion, which means I don’t understand the difference that you see between her needing it for comfort/grief vs it being doctrinally correct.
Becky JUST referred to Joyce as her “bestie-in-Christ” (again), so I’m leaning towards she wanting Joyce to believe again.
Same here. Like I don’t think Becky would be okay with her not believing. It very much feels like she wants her to believe again, because she feels like Joyce had (1) hardship with her faith and bailed, while forgetting how hard that same thing probably hit her way younger.
I would have believed that before the “bestie in christ” wisecrack today.
Indeed, Becky may want to hear that, but I think what she needs to hear is more along the lines of “Our friendship is more important to me than being right about such completely unprovable concepts as the existence of God and a life after death”. Or, well, maybe I’m projecting – I’d like Joyce to say that cause I’m not sure there’s still any hope for her.
And it would help contextualize the actual problem for Becky, who understands the differences between God and faith and church and is comfortable dispensing with the latter when it’s let her down, and hasn’t grasped that Joyce lacks that understanding. Maybe it could lead them to the “Just cause our church was messed up and produced a congregation of messed up individuals doesn’t mean a higher power definitely doesn’t exist” conversation.
And wouldn’t that be nice.
Joyce already said that. Joyce has BEEN SAYING THAT ever since Becky showed up after being expelled.
Yeah.
Becky being the most important person in Joyce’s life was, like, the thing that started wrecking her religious indoctrination.
She seems to have changed her mind since this personality change, though.
Like sure she wants to save Becky from God. She wants it so bad she doesn’t notice how little Becky, or anyone else for that matter, cares about her unending judgmental sermons. Two out of two interactions they’ve had, Joyce has placed her beliefs between herself and Becky, pushing her away. If I was Becky I’d be questioning if it’s worth the abuse to try holding on to my friend who clearly wants to bask in the light of God’s absence more than she wants me to be around. Being important isn’t the same as being friends is what I’m saying.
Very well put.
Someone else framed the problem like this a while back, and I think it still fits:
“Becky feels abandoned, Joyce wanted them to escape together.”
That’s a good way of putting Joyce’s feelings, but the problem is that Becky doesn’t see anything she needs to escape from, so if Joyce needs her to come with or be left behind, that’s still a Joyce problem.
Until VERY recently, Becky and Joyce were both projecting their own views on each other. They’re each assuming the other also had their takeaway from their shared upbringing, when that’s not at all true.
Becky can “keep the God stuff and ditch the cult stuff”, which means Joyce can too, as far as she’s concerned. To Becky, Joyce is throwing out the baby with the bathwater and throwing punches for no reason but to be hurtful.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-11/01-this-bright-millennium/ditchin/
To Joyce, the “God stuff” and “cult stuff” are so intertwined that they’re inseparable, so all of it goes. (See the “original sin” comic from a few years ago set at the crosswalk.) She assumes Becky will eventually “wise up and come around”. Joyce thinks Becky is naively holding onto a fantasy.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-12/01-sister-christian/bethlehem/
Joyce has been this close to having a complete nervous breakdown almost the whole time she’s been at college, what with her entire belief foundation cracking up and falling down around her and out from under her. She is emotionally about three years old right now, she’ll get there. Every time she tries to express her feelings and figure out what she thinks Becky is there to be mad at her about it. She’s like a refugee from a cult and the only person who gets where she’s coming from is mad at her for rejecting the group-think. A really good thing she has Dorothy and Joe to bounce ideas off of.
and then there was Liz, who turned out to actually be… maybe 3 and a half. Maybe.
You get what I’m getting from this. Joyce has basically been dealing with nonstop shit from the jump of the comic but the second she has a less-than-perfect reaction [and this is consistent] people jump on her. Especially the further from ‘comic logic’ we get.
Makes me think of Shera, but Becky was never cool with hurting people.
I think people are so hard on Joyce because her apology was actually much worse than the actual offense. It was a “sorry, not sorry” apology because the question Becky asked is, “Do you think I’m stupid for believing in God?” was answered with, “Well, God is a stupid idea so…”
It was, “I am sorry you were offended.”
I agree that the apology was terrible but I don’t think Becky was letting it not turn into a fight. Joyce ran to her and empathically said sorry and Becky dismissed it with “Sorry I heard you”. Becky asked loaded questions and responded with anger. Joyce could have handled it better but Becky wasn’t exactly ready for calm words.
totes agree, joyce had the right to vent, tho now they are just both being obnoxious. i don’t think joyce would have got to this level of obnoxiouness if she had gotten to choose when to come out to becky
Probably true, but when would that have been? Joyce wasn’t going to do it anytime soon.
Seems like keeping it hidden was likely holding her back and the more she tried to express it while still keeping it secret from Becky, the more likely it all was to blow up in her face.
Would Joyce be better equipped to have this conversation at a point when she has a more thorough understanding of who she is now? Yeah probably.
The opposite end to that is that it was never going to happen healthily, because Becky and Joyce have not actually had a healthy dynamic this whole time. It’s unending love where they’d never die for each other; they’d violently tear to shreds anything that would cause the other harm, but the downside is that they have no idea how to think outside of that lockstep.
Becky had to insert herself into Joyce’s day, and Joyce would at any other point in time think that was awesome. Joyce spending a private day meeting another friend shouldn’t be cause for concern, but that’s how tightly they ran with the script.
I mean this with all sincerity, but this crazy fucking blowup they’re having with each otheir is both the logical endpoint of a codependent love and the best possible thing that could happen to them, because when they repair it, and they will, they’ll be able to tackle the underlying subtexts that have defined them.
The point is that she didn’t have to. Becky’s not entitled to know what Joyce believes in or doesn’t.
Yeah, she never got to actually make the apology before Becky interrupted with the very loaded “sorry I heard you”. It might have still been a horrible apology, but we never got to hear it because Becky interrupted, so it could have also been a good apology.
… you know, I just thought of something.
“Sorry you got caught” feels to me like an innately authoritarian thing to say. . Like, there’s no scenario where you can be sorry because I’ve decided as such, and I’ve decided you did wrong and I won’t even give you the chance to explain why.
There’s no way to say this without it sounding deliberately inflammatory, but that feels like a Becky’s Dad move, right? Your feelings do not matter more than my being wronged, regardless of circumstances.
I guess the way I’m looking at it, her dad is the only example she has for this kind of scenario. You have done wrong, and I don’t care why.
I mean if you’re the wronged party and someone has wronged you, there’s not really a avenue where the person who wronged you is the victims. Which is to say, “do you believe Becky was right to be upset about Joyce shittalking her behind her back.” Because Becky fully believes it was shittalking her not her religion.
I mean yes that is exactly it: Becky thinks she is the victim, so whatever Joyce has to say is coming out of the mouth of the guilty party. Joyce cannot be sorry, because if she were really sorry she would not have done it. It’s difficult to properly enunciate because it feels like if I say it wrong it comes off as “Becky is EXACTLY like her father,” but the imagery of “this is how Becky deals with conflict when she feels she’s right” is kinda coalescing for me?
Dina’s not “at fault” for not being constantly horny on main for Becky, so Becky starts confused and kind of hurt, gets a talk from Leslie and Robin, and then internalizes the problem as caused by her own sinful horniness.
Ruth and Billie are in class together, and so Becky openly embarrasses and aggravates them to make sure they don’t hook up again, even though this is the first time they’ve been on-panel together since the timeskip and they’ve not indicated in the slightest they want to be again. Becky just decides they definitely will get back together if left to their own devices, and so she sufficiently annoys them to the point where they both bail, which then leads to Billie having the most amount of interaction they’ve probably had since the breakup, and ultimately Ruth starts dating Jason. She just decides she not only knows what they both need, she decides what the both of them are feeling.
And now we’ve got a topic where Becky has indicated she’s not willing to bend: Joyce cannot doubt her upbringing, she just has to find the important parts like Becky did, except all of it is equally important to Joyce and once proven false it was equally worthless. Joyce is doubting, so Becky calls her a bummer, tells her she’s going through a stupid phase, and that her doubt is insincere because she’s only been rebelling for 30 seconds. Once the genie’s out of the bottle, Becky cannot even ask, for a second, what motivated this (nobody can, for some reason, I don’t know why), that maybe Joyce can actually have feelings on her death cult contrary to hers, that this is as big a deal to Joyce as it is to Becky, and it caps off with Becky telling her that Joyce was only a Christian as long as she was better than anyone else. That fucking argument starts and ends with Becky deciding what Joyce’s words mean.
Taking this all together, and obviously this isn’t meant to be some Definitely Canon Take or whatever, she comes off as a character who processes conflict in terms of Father Knows Best: it’s not Dina’s fault, so it’s Becky’s. Billie and Ruth can’t be near each other or else they’ll die, and so Becky takes ownership of the feelings they don’t have and her so far only move into keeping them apart involved them having their longest conversation since breaking up. Joyce is at fault, so whatever Joyce says doesn’t matter, Becky just knows better than her.
Then you get her treatment of Dorothy which was years of possessive sniping that, I think nowadays, has turned into Becky being really desperate to prove to Dorothy she can be her friend, and so she needs to show that she’s a cool, affable, roguish badass like she was to Joyce, the least cool human being alive. Becky can’t just accept Dorothy likes her, she has to repeatedly prove to Dorothy she’s the Funny One or else Dorothy will start hating he. Becky’s indicated more than once that she thinks people stop liking her when she gets upset, which, that’s like the least subtle indication that her homelife involved a fucking lot of submissive compliance to her dad’s orders that she had to sneak around to rebel against; the haircut she had at the start of the comic she got because she “accidentally” spilled glue into her hair.
Jesus H, this kid’s messed and I never really thought how badly. Of course she would process “a betrayal’ in such a way that whatever Joyce is thinking doesn’t matter.
I believe you hit perfecty all the spots.
Frankly I ordered her behavior at the start. It was at least based on 18 years’ of knowledge and a source material she could quote by heart.
Now, instead of taking the time to learn humility and focus on educating herself – she’s flipped a switch to justify her most toxic behaviors.
Joyce at the start of the comic would’ve had no problem going up to two women on a date and trying to “save” them from themselves. Now she’s going up to a man/woman couple to try to “save” Ruth.
At the start she saw one person’s “sin” as a risk to others. Now she’s seeing Ruth’s “backtracking” and is saying it could infect Ethan and Becky with ~the straight~.
At the start, Joyce saw her faith as making her superior to others. Now she sees her incredibly ignorant, close minded concept of atheism as making her superior and is even more of a loudmouth about how much better she is than other people.
Man. God forbid someone going through an intense transitional period in her life not get it right perfectly and hit some road bumps along the way.
I know, right? How dare someone with massive piles of unhandled trauma, zero frame of reference, and a drastically reduced support network consisting of three people in total (each of whom is only sporadically helpful) NOT do a full metaphysical 180 in less than a month while remaining utterly graceful and faultlessly polite!
Joyce is allowed to be mad.
So is Becky, though.
Becky isn’t required to give Joyce a pass anymore than the reverse.
Becky doesn’t have to but it would be nice.
Becky doesn’t have to keep butting in. Joyce is a mess, it’s going to take a while for her to rebuild herself and it would be better (although less amusing for the audience) if Becky would just mind her own business. Joyce tried to apologize and Becky shut her down. Joyce has to wait until Becky’s ready to even hear her: what Becky wants to hear is “I believe in God again, just exactly the same way you do with all the same cherry-picked rules.”
Personally, this is a great reason for Joyce to kick Becky to the curb. When Becky was having a literally deadly crisis, Joyce backed her play to the point of shattering her entire faith.
When Joyce was trying to deal with the internal fallout of that, Becky insulted her, compared traumas, and refuses to even try to meet her halfway. If she spent even a tenth of the effort actually listening to her supposed bestie that she spends on fake-fighting with Dorothy, the entire fight never would have happened because they would have talked about it naturally a while ago.
When did Becky attack Joyce personally and also insult Joyce’s significant other? Sorry missed that bit.
The part where she told her that Joyce’s faith was based on lording her superiority over everyone else.
And the part where she told Joyce that her questioning her religion was silly because she’d only been mad at her parents for “not as long as Becky has been”.
^this
exactly this.
Yet Becky gets a pass from pretty much everyone for acting like a jerk whenever she feels like it, while everyone acts like Joyce is a monster for acting badly for a few days.
So, I’m of the idea that Joyce will genuinely try to apologize, but Becky is gonna be the one to say no and turn away. Because Joyce now represents, in a way, her dad.
“Don’t run up to someone with their significant other and try to tell them their relationship is innately wrong” is something Joyce should have known by now.
Joyce’s behavior was eyeroll worthy but ultimately part of the process until she went up to Ruth and tried to get her to end a relationship on the grounds that bisexuality justifies gay conversion.
That is what has taken Joyce from “ah young mistakes” to “shut up and sit down” in my eyes.
Not that I think bad of Becky for it, but there’s just something about that face
That kind of face that she was taught to do all her life
That facade face,
That “grin and bear it” face,
That just makes me feel sick to my stomache,
That makes me feel hella bad for her
Am I the only one who feels this way?
No, you’re right. The first time my husband heard me refer to it as “My Mask” he got sad for me. It’s a shitty face to learn. But GREAT if you go into any sort of retail or customer service work
I would LOOOOVE UBI. So much! As someone who grew up in a family of teachers, its criminal what they get paid vs what they deal with. Anyone in a care job is in the same boat.
Yeah. The way she can suppress herself that seemingly-easily says volumes about what she’s been through.
No, definitely not.
betrayal!
betrayal!
Betrayed me!
This Joyce suuuucks
I understood that reference.
But will Becky sheepishly admit she wasn’t being very professional later on?
So this new Joyce is going to be quasi-rebooted into an even newer Joyce that is what everyone wanted all along?
So this Joyce is like some ugly-ass cocoon that’s gonna hatch a Joyce-beautyfly?
Let’s just hope that it doesn’t have a 50/50 chance of evolving into a toxic moth instead!
Well this is an XCOM reference, so I kinda hope not. The things that come out of cocoons in that game have a 100% chance of being very bad news
We have 95% for this scenario so yeah 50/50
Youth pastor voice: you know who else liked “getting tips” (of nails)?
…………not Jesus?
Yeah, fairly sure he was very adamant about not wanting to do the whole “get executed and suffer the torments of hell” thing
Well that went about as well as it was gonna.
Probably would have gone worse if Becky didn’t have to go back to work. This gives Dorothy time to explain to Joyce why she is being an asshole, and how to stop.
Very possibly, but fortunately she has to leave.
You are optimistic. Chances are Joyce won’t learn anything here and we’ll stew on this a while longer. Joyce learning anything now it too easy.
And then will Becky learn how not to be an asshole? Because she needs to learn that too.
Glad someone else caught Becky lumping Dorothy in with Joyce due to belief system. Sometimes just clicked with me that Becky’s fake anger with Dorothy was really a cover for real anger at Dorothy being Joyce’s atheist friend.
Yeah, but because of the timeflow of the comic it’s going to be over a year our time for them to process the trauma from the kidnapping and everything else while she processes people can be bisexual. Maybe 3 or 4 months in-comic time.
A year? More like a decade. The first ten years of DOA only us to mid-October of the first semester.
..only took us… I was so sure I had enough coffee to post safely.
Whaddya know? Becky really did run or teleport from work at Galasso’s to take offence at what Dorothy and Joyce were saying in the cafeteria.
If she had just passed them on her way out to work she wouldn’t have a three-top to get back to.
It seems even when she’s mad at Joyce she doesn’t want her to have conversations that don’t involve her
So, Becky. Good on you for that very mature and internally consistent perspective on your acquaintance’s relationship.
Fellow readers. Do you think Becky was still in earshot at the end? Cause she facing away from Dorothy and Joyce and there’s definitely some distance there too. But, Dorothy’s expression definitely changed.
I assume she made sure she was audible. It seems to be meant as a barb at Joyce, and there’s no point if Joyce doesn’t hear it.
Yeah, it’s the whole “the fact you no longer are a christian hurts me” kinda swing, and Becky’s been taking a lot of those shots at Joyce lately. I’ve still got hope that we’re going to at least in part address Becky’s atheismphobia in the resolution of Joyce’s issues.
Feeling hurt when a close friend abandons something that was a big part of your friendship isn’t “atheismphobia”, it’s just human. She’s not bothered by Dina’s atheism.
Which isn’t to say that it’s not something she’s going to have to address, it’s just not really that thing. It’s a more personal relationship thing.
Well yes, obviously if we just look at this strip in isolation then that part couldn’t be said to be here, and the close friend abandoning their shared system is *also* part of it. But it’s looking at Becky’s behavior over the course of the entire strip that lets us make judgments about what she believes.
For example in the few strips where Carla dunks on Mary with her elaborate machine, we’d be way less sympathetic to Carla if we took them in isolation without considering that Mary earned every inch of that and had shown her anti-trans stances.
DEFINITELY in earshot. There’s no point to that last line otherwise.
After thinking it over a bit more, I think I’m going to backtrack on where I said there’s no point of Joyce doesn’t hear it. If Willis had used smaller font and indicated Becky was saying this under her breath, I think that line would’ve just been to indicate her frustration and hurt and they way she perceives their rift. Being out loud is what makes it a barb at Joyce, and that’s what means it has to be audible for that barb o have a point (pun intended).
fuckin’ GOT ‘er. Nicely done Becky.
I had a whole thing typed out but I’m gonna delete to to say, Joyce is being a bad friend. But is being a bad friend cause she’s dealing with a lot of stuff poorly. So I really hope she takes advantage of the campus therapists and maybe works through some stuff.
According to Walky, the campus therapists (at least the ones he’s tried) aren’t that great.
I remember the ones I tried at a major school were all students trying to get credits for classes. But the one I had at a technical school? Holy SHIT that woman was amazing!
Yeah, IU Bloomington alone (not even counting the town of Bloomington itself) is the size of a small city–population of nearly 50,000 students and faculty–so it’s not entirely impossible that there’s someone out there. But if there is such a someone or someones, we don’t yet know if any of our cast know of them.
And, this being America, knowing of them only helps if our cast can afford them. Sure, there’s sliding scales and what it, but it’s still far from a guarantee.
Campuses are frequently WILDLY understaffed for things like mental health services relative to their student population, though, and because they’re students, they’re a lot less likely to have private practice as an option. (Because money, especially if you don’t want your guardian to know for whatever reason.) I’ve heard of weeks-long waits for scheduling after hospitalization, limits on how many sessions you can see someone a semester significantly less than the number of weeks in said semester… especially for big schools, it’s a MASSIVE problem, and that means even someone who was competent and equipped for any given cast member’s issues might still be unable to provide adequate care, because they don’t have the time.
My experience is they’re either meh, okay, or really, really, really bad (like trigger a decade’s long agoraphobic episode through the misuse of questionable therapy) type of bad
Totally with you here
The one therapist I knew was just old and blatantly misogynistic. “Have you ever met a woman who kept her word?” He said, looking around at his men’s therapy group.
Dorothy seemed to find the one she was going to helped. And they might have been able to help Ruth, though she didn’t have much to compare to. Not sure how much good they did for Jennifer – or how long she went for that matter.
Dorothy wasn’t dealing with trauma or big life changes, though. She didn’t need a therapist, she needed someone to make her a schedule that didn’t lead her to burning out.
Ruth also got meds – how much of the improvement on her mental health was from each factor is unknown.
Didn’t Dorothy start going to therapy after seeing Ryan get gutted?
Yeah, she only started going to therapy because someone tried to murder her and her friends and then she watched her friend eviscerate that someone. Nothing traumatic about that!
Last panel was unnecessary, Becky. At the very least, you could’ve left out the “in Christ” bit. Now you’ve provided fuel to everyone who thinks you’re trying to force Joyce to stay Christian.
I mean we really haven’t gotten her opinion on Joyce being an Atheist yet, just her opinion on Joyce using said Atheism to talk down to people
For all we know she does take issue with Joyce leaving Christianity
We don’t know about her opinion about Joyce being an atheist, but we do understand her opinion on atheism itself. Namely, that she doesn’t like it very much, and believes that hating people is a ‘fundamental’ component of atheism. Given how much we know about her feelings on it, it’s a very easy inference to draw (and, frankly, it’d probably break my suspension of disbelief if Becky just loudly hammed out “No, I’m totally fine with Joyce being Atheist! It’s just that she’s gotta be polite about it!” like she hammed out this truth bomb on Ruth’s new relationship).
This is a split between them based in religion, which is fine and understandable, and both of them have issues regarding it for a lot of reasons. It makes for a lot of interesting character interactions and drama to help fuel the series, and I actually like it and hope the dynamic sticks around for a while. Series’d be very boring if everyone was friends forever with no conflict.
I think Becky’s views might be a bit more complicated than that.
After all, she is in a relationship with Dina, who is an atheist (so she must realize that Atheism doesn’t have a mandatory “All about hating people” component.) Not to mention the fact that Dorothy has been nothing but accepting of Becky, regardless of the abuse Becky heaped on her.
Sure, when she said that about atheism she might have been venting her issues through snide played-up remarks, but I’m always of the stance that if you say something, you at least kind of mean it.
Moreover, we know she’s been snippy to Dorothy, and she has *never* had a more-than-surface-level conversation about religion with Dina that wasn’t about getting rid of the anti-science parts of her worldview. Which we know in general because she’s conflict avoidant, and specifically because she thinks that Dina would be *angry* about the fact that they’d be in perfect paradise in heaven, purely because it meant she’d have been wrong about her belief in the world.
I suspect that Becky has issues with both Joyce’s athiesm itself and with her using it to declare her superiority to theists.
Becky probably knows deep down that she’s only really justified in being angry with Joyce for one of those things. But she’s uninterested in admitting that any time soon, and she is very skilled at distracting herself and others from uncomfortable truths.
I think it was like that Joyce was one of the only Christians Becky knew that hadn’t stabbed her in the back.
Apparently that meant ‘yet’.
Sucks when the comic provides fuel for the people who disagree with you, huh.
Yes, especially when I’m not convinced that the fuel means what I expect they’ll claim it means. I seem to recall Becky and Joyce calling themselves “besties in Christ” at some point during the comic. I don’t think what Becky said here is indicative that she expects or demands that Joyce stay “in Christ,” but rather that she is referring to the title they’ve claimed for themselves. In short, I don’t think it’s different from if she’d said “Very similar to my ‘not betrayed by my BFF’ face.”
Hey, Jamie, I haven’t yet forgiven Becky for not bluffing Amber’s father with imaginary tweets. Shows you can’t trust her.
While that actually is an interesting thought, I don’t blame Becky for not thinking of it at the time.
Specifically, her putting on an oh-shit act, and pretending to go find her phone, fumble around, and buy precious time for the police to arrive. A strategy to keep him talking, occupied, *anything*, would have been pretty interesting, and better than what happened (ignoring the comic book Happy Ending we got for what otherwise would have been a very dark and tragic conclusion).
I believe Clif was specifically facetiously referring to having been very insistent at the time, across multiple strips, that Becky was bluffing when she told Blaine that she’d queued tweets with all the pertinent facts to go up “any minute” and that she had not in fact done any of what she’d said she’d done-only for the comic to soon after reveal that she had, in fact, done what she had said she’d done and proving Clif wrong.
Oh, so that happens to other people and not just me.
Yep.
On the other hand, if comments on a Willis web comic with twists and turns are the worst errors we make in life, I’m calling it a win.
I mean, we all remember Ryan’s phone
Agreed. It’s partly a stab at Joyce for leaving Christianity, but it’s mostly a reference to their prior status as “best Christian friends” and that being upended both by Joyce no longer being Christian and Joyce thinking she’s stupid for staying Christian.
She does.
I get that she’s upset with Joyce and is likely just saying it to be snide towards her but the “betrayed by my bestie in christ” line rubs me the wrong way, like part of her issue with Joyce is that Joyce is no longer Christian.
But it is though. Becky went through Hell and came out still loving and feeling loved by her religion. It’s giving her comfort. To her mind, Joyce got her life rocked once and abandoned ship. I can understand while she feels betrayed.
I mean, when Joyce was freaking out, Becky even stated, “This is the first time your parents have betrayed you. (or something).
It was a low blow to be sure. But they’re both raw and lashing out like the 18 year olds they are.
Becky was hurt that way so many times, and learned how to hide the pain, and smile.
But in the process, she’s forgotten how much it hurt the first time, and how utterly shocking it was.
The irony is that Joyce believed the religion they were raised in, what they were taught. Becky did not believe what they were taught. She had to create a different religion in her head for herself because she couldn’t live by her parents’ religion.
So Becky’s known for a long time that their church’s teachings were not an accurate portrayal of the world. She believed material details like how old the earth is, but she didn’t believe what she was taught about humanity. she knew LGBTQ were not demons out to rap e children, that other people aren’t evil because they believe something different.
But Joyce believed all that, her entire understanding of the universe and people was based on that.
So while Becky’s father stabbed her in the back, that’s a human failure on a human level. Joyce just found out her parents raised her in an alternate universe and set her up for existential breakdown.
Between Becky’s more savvy personality and abusive family and Joyce’s trusting naivety and loving family, Becky had to have been aware all along that her parents – at least her father – were lying to her about how the universe worked, while Joyce believed it and was totally unprepared when she ran into reality.
You summed up my thoughts on Becky’s belief vs Joyce’s, but i’d wager that Becky forgets that Joyce wasn’t raised with the same ‘version’ becky came up with to help her manage.
Eh, not really. Becky absorbed what was actually textual and spoken about Jesus that the Church of Brown was acting horrifically hypocritical about. Their interpretations of Jesus’ anarchist all-loving hippie ministry of Reform Judaism is something Protestants bend over backwards to be a totalitarian capitalist shitshow.
But Becky is pretty much on point with the teachings. Just ignored the, “except if they’re in any way different from us.”
The great thing about Christianity is that you can justify damn near anything based on the text and then claim you got it right and all those other idiots got it all wrong.
True, but it also works with the US. Constitution, the works of Aristotle and much else. Imagine a discussion between David Bohm and Scott Everett about what the fundamental equations of physics mean.
I think people using variations of gradient descent for machine learning (which is everyone), instead of a Bayesian variant of the Luus-Jaakola heuristic, are doing it wrong. Always plenty of scope for arguing the other guy is an idiot.
Eh, you can but you pretty much have to just be willing to ignore everything about it. Which many Protestant churches do.
I think it is a big part. Joyce is so much to Becky. Family, her first love, her best friend, a link to her past. They were homeschooled together, they went to church together, they took trips together. When Becky couldn’t go home she went to Joyce. When her Dad tried to kidnap her she called Joyce. Dina, Dorothy, everyone else she meets who is an atheist or not christian, isn’t Joyce, isn’t the person she has shared so much of her time and faith with, isn’t the person she thought would be there to navigate keeping god but getting rid of the cult with her.
And tbh if Joyce is in distress…. People arent really there x.x
“Not betrayed by my bestie in christ” Ah, Becky you dummy. Joyce is being an ass but she didn’t betray you.
I mean shittalking you to strangers behind your back is a C-grade betrayal.
I mean stalking your friend to barge in on her hanging out with someone not you isn’t exactly high tier friendshipping either.
I can see where C.T.Phipps is coming from but I don’t see what Joyce did as talking behind Becky’s back. Joyce’s target was her old self, who believed the Earth was only a few thousand years old, who believed in the rigid rules of her church, who believed her parents were an inseparable unit.
And I can see where Reaver is coming from but I think stalking is far, far too hard a word. Becky has been shown to be a bit unhealthily attached to Joyce at times but showing up unannounced with Dorothy to hang out with a new person is a pretty normal (if sometimes annoying) friend thing to do.
Yeah, calling that stalking is way over the top to me. It just seems to be an excuse to blame Becky.
I mean, do you even college? Wandering in on friends unannounced is about 90% of the experience. (Or was? Maybe that’s changed with ubiquitous cell phones?)
I’m glad to see some pushback on the stalking thing. Honestly, if looking up someone’s FB and seeing their public status is stalking, then we’ve all stalked someone at some point. I realize there’s some concern over Becky’s possessiveness of Joyce, but I’m not convinced that plus FB equals Becky being a stalker.
It feels like less “do you even college” when you deliberately hunt someone down without their will, knowledge, or consent by tracking their location because they have a friend over and you need to assert yourself as their One True Friend, and then openly brag that being wildly over-possessive makes you a cool badass.
Wandering around looking for her on the grounds of “I am Joyce’s Cool Christian Friend and nobody else!” is weird, it is substantially more so when you check a stranger’s facebook profile to find her. Why did Becky even think to look there?
I feel like this is a weird attitude for Facebook. What is Facebook BUT information you want to share publicly.
If you’re out with a friend I’ve never met who tweets “hey, at Chipotle’s!” or something, I see it, and then without your will, knowledge or consent go charging in because I not only want to see you, but I want to see you for the specific purpose of making your friend know that I alone am your truest and bestest friend, describe to me what that makes you feel like.
I’m more than willing to drop the specific word ‘stalking’ if it’s legitimately upsetting to anyone here but I don’t know why this defense for the action is happening, especially when it involves taking individual pieces of that sequence with Becky’s motivations and the steps she took to act on them out of the equation to pretend it’s only the one thing and therefore not bad.
Becky needed to prove she was Joyce’s Cool Christian Friend while laughing about how being over-possessive made her a funny badass who doesn’t have to apologize for being real, and instead of texting Joyce she looked up her in a way that meant she knew where Joyce was, and Joyce didn’t know she was coming. What am I supposed to feel about this if not “what the fuck?”
I definitely think Joyce was making fun of her old fundie self and not really intending to insult Becky when she was shittalking religious people while hanging out with Liz in Joe’s room.
While its a very pro-Joyce view about her attacking her old self, Becky asked if Joyce thought Becky was an idiot.
Joyce didn’t deny it.
She started explaining WHY Becky was an idiot.
Joyce was shit-talking her past self in Joe’s dorm, not Becky. She wasn’t even THINKING of Becky. (And that’s why Becky is angry.)
Except Becky asked if she thought Becky was an idiot.
And Joyce started explaining why.
The, “Joyce was only mocking herself” thing was a fan interpretation that Joyce outright said was not just the case. She’s very clearly against ALL religious people.
I’m thinking it could be Joyce’s continuing to act like spouting slogans about how stupid it is to believe in God is more important than staying friends that feels like betrayal, to Becky.
I mean, if you don’t respect someone, they’re not your friend.
“I think you’re a moron and your beliefs are toxic” is a way of saying you’re not friends.
Panel 2 makes me think Joyce doesn’t think this is a friendship-ending fight she’s having with Becky, especially with that smile. She might be at odds with Becky, but in her heart she still loves her (platonically)
Well of course. She thinks Becky’s smart, and as such she will eventually understand and come around to being an atheist herself.
Yeah it’s a condescending attitude that comes from not realizing that smart people come to different conclusions. Pluralism whoo
And for Becky, it WAS a friendship ending fight. As in, the friendship is over. She’s just in it for the spiteful digs now.
While in practice I agree with that assessment of Becky’s attitude, in theory I do think Becky has some hopes she can swing Joyce back to Being A Good Christian. She’s not taking much of an active effort there, but it’s pretty clearly what her nagging is geared towards.
I think all that depends on their conversation which will totally not end the storyline.
Yup, still liking Becky, and God do I know that face.
Don’t feel like touching this one?
*tries to think of a tasty joke*
If you were a condiment, what would you be?
Sriracha, mostly because I just had a tasty sandwich with some on it a few minutes ago
Worcestershire Sauce. I grew up with my dad adding it to everything. And now I add it to everything
That’s kinda fishy.
This is the right answer.
(I do have a bottle within two feet of me right now, in case I want to perk up any snacks I have, so I may not be entirely unbiased)
There’s no right answer here! It’s kinda a joke-collab where we get to laugh at each other’s answers.
I dunno. I’m not really that much of an improviser. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Soy sauce!
Mayonnaise…. because I don’t like mayo but others do
Queso in Barbecue Sauce.
But seriously, what’s the joke?
I wanna see all the funny answers people come up with and why they’d be any particular condiment.
Also, SAUCE! 🤪
Mildly disappointed because I was expecting food humor. You know, something like:
Why should you always serve Eggs Benedict on hubcaps?
Because there’s no plate like chrome for the Hollandaise!
Mustard. Simultaneously basic and an acquired taste
I don’t see it. But I guess I’ve always liked it, so yeah.
Sour Cream. Extremely white and fluffy.
Horseradish. Hot, but surprisingly compatible.
Tamerind chutney, which is even better if you mix it with cilantro/mint chutney.
A refined taste, I see.
Mix it with some chili sauce and put it on a fried egg sandwich. Trust me.
Barbecue sauc
Fry sauce w/ relish
I would not be. Because I don’t like many condiments and would rather people stop insist that they be on literally everything.
I get that. What few condiments do you like? Do any of them have something in common with you as a person?
If she really likes him, if it makes her happy, and she’s not hurting herself or anybody else, who’s to say she can’t?
+1
“really like him” woah you’re quite getting over yourself there
True, but sometime we have to grade on a curve
The curve is in Jason’s pants, specifically
Eyyy
Becky is the fucking GOAT*
*right now where she is schooling Joyce and not carrying on some bullshit rivalry with Dorothy**
**oh shit is Joyce not worth a fake rivalry over anymore??
We can only hope.
*mic drop*
My bestie in Christ..geeze Becky
I wish Ruth, some day, just could surpass all her authoritative and problematic shell and give credit to people that really care for her life, like Becky did here.
But I’m afraid she can’t be nice or cool enough for Ruth get some attention.
That’s kind of a weird take on Ruth.
I mean, Ruth getting out of her shell is always hard, but that’s the depression. It’s got nothing to do with being nice or cool enough.
Also, this.
did becky just do the silverhawks mask swipe
Dammit Becky, I almost liked you for a second and then you decided on that ‘betrayal by bestie in Christ’ BS. Joyce’s trauma responses and beliefs are not about you or controlled by you! EFFING STOP IT.
Surprised there’s a lot of talking about Becky and Joyce but so little about that wham line about Ruth. That… puts a couple things coming off the timeskip into context! Yikes. (And attempting suicide is very much a trigger for Becky – while I think she’s exaggerating the NUMBER of attempts as a distancing thing, I don’t think she’d joke about the fact that Ruth attempted, likely more than once, or at least a clear attempt and a couple things that are viewed in hindsight as Deeply Worrisome.)
We also have very clear confirmation Becky WAS deliberately obnoxious the first day of Gender Studies and 100% sincere in wanting Ruth and Jennifer to stay broken up. The fact that she dropped the goofball act made that pretty clear, but even so, the new context is… well, small wonder it DID prompt Becky to drop the act.
Oh jeez, is that what happened on Halloween? Didn’t even cross my mind.
Well, I THINK that the sixteen times was just Becky exaggerating and there was really only the once. Becky is sensitive on the subject of suicides.
Ruth never attempted suicide in the comic on-screen, unless I’m seriously forgetting something (remember, when we saw Bonnie’s attempt it was prefaced for a long time by a black warning screen, a hotline link and a photo of a cute immortal kitten before you could even scroll down to the comic, not to mention the hotline link below today’s strip); she was hospitalized after expressing that she’d like to die and laying on her bed all-but-unresponsive for an entire day. If Ruth actually attempted during the timeskip, that’s new information–and might contextualize Jennifer’s saying post-timeskip that their breakup was “on Ruth”.
Yeah, no, what we saw from Ruth onscreen that got her hospitalized was suicidal ideation, but she was too depressed to actually make any sort of attempt. (Not QUITE catatonic, but like. Worryingly close. And that was because she was making Jennifer keep her distance.) There was a lot of self-destructive behavior PRIOR to that point, like, you know, the suicide pact and the drinking, but nothing that could actually be classed as an active attempt and most of the cast didn’t know about it. Even one attempt is new information. And I really do think that because Becky specifically is so sensitive on the subject, she wouldn’t go to ‘like sixteen times’ from a single attempt – I think there were at least two, or the second was self-destruction on par with Jennifer’s DUI that wasn’t an active attempt but could be read as a passive one. (When you add in ‘Ruth switched antidepressants, meaning the first ones had some significant downside and there was a period while she was adjusting to the new ones where they hadn’t kicked in,’ that suggests a lot as well. Given the painting her dorm thing, the first ones could definitely be read as overshooting ‘not depressed’ into ‘manic or hypomanic episode.’ I could see that mixing badly with a breakup. Just to name one potential scenario.)
So she deliberately drove a wedge between Ruth and Jennifer because she thought their relationship was incredibly toxic and didn’t want Ruth to go through everything she went through all over again.
Clever, Miss Macintyre.
I mean, that’s still really fucked up?
It was pretty easy to read between the lines that this was her motivation but she still openly embarrassed the both of them in front of a classroom so one of them would drop out, and not only is that a gross overstep of boundaries on her part, but then they stormed out at the same time and then Jennifer meddled in Ruth’s life some more, Ruth hooked up with Jason, and now they’re fighting in class again.
I was taking that as Becky was comparing it to her mother and that her *mother* had actually attempted a total of 16 times which is where the number came from. Like in the way you would reference something that had happened to someone else you know/knew, so you specifically want to prevent that for another person you care about.
It would make sense to me that Ruth may have tried once or even twice, but my thought about the number was that it related to her mother rather than being a random exaggeration. Also because as I recall, her method was overdose by pills, and that tends to take more than one try to succeed with.
Said overdose didn’t kill Bonnie immediately, but we’ve heard since then that she died later in the hospital as a result of said overdose – likely organ damage. I think from Becky’s reaction (specifically the absolute trauma when she found out Ruth and Jennifer were hospitalized and the ‘I swore I’d never miss the signs again, Billie gave me her room’ bit,) that was likely the only attempt Becky knew about, at least while Bonnie was alive. And I think it’s fairly likely Bonnie hadn’t attempted prior, certainly not SIXTEEN TIMES, because they have a gun in the house. Even if Ross as an abusive scumbag who refused to acknowledge mental illness (‘Satan took your mother from us’) wouldn’t get rid of the gun to keep Bonnie from attempting to kill herself with it, I still think if she tried that many times, she would have eventually gone with a more likely method that was available to her. (Would it be DRAMATICALLY harder to kill herself with a hunting rifle than a handgun? I’m sure it would. But not, I don’t think, impossible, and after so many attempts I can’t imagine she wouldn’t try something different.)
You have fair points but that could arguably be a way that Becky ‘missed the signs’ before in that her mum sometimes ‘happened’ to take too many pills and it was only the last one that killed her that made her aware prior times weren’t accidents.
Women rarely commit suicide by gun even if one is available and she may have been wary of attempting to use it because Becky was in the house (and like, bullets can go through walls, she could have hurt someone other than herself using that, aside from how gorey that would have been as well). Women usually choose fairly ineffective methods that don’t succeed on the first try and try several times.
But that was just my thought on why she could have specified 16. It could also just be a random number she pulled out of thin air, it just read like the way I would have said something if the number was related to an actual person.
Her mum could have only tried once and succeeded that one time, I just wouldn’t have been surprised if she had attempted a lot of other times that only in retrospect made sense as attempts to Becky.
That ‘like’ before sixteen reads very much as hyperbolic filler word to me – Think ‘I knitted like ten thousand scarves this year’, or ‘he’s run like twelve marathons.’ Typically, it’s too many to easily keep track of, but likely also exaggerated. Given the short time frame in play here, even a couple attempts or one attempt and a lot of self-destructive behavior would be very much terrifying and say a lot about Ruth and Jennifer’s relationship toxicity.
I also don’t think Becky’d be able to hold her goofy front so well if she were projecting her mom THAT SPECIFICALLY onto Ruth here. Suicide, and especially her mom’s, is one of the few things that consistently punctures Becky’s facade. That’s also an argument for sixteen maybe not being hyperbole, but there’s nothing linking Bonnie in here EXCEPT that suicide is Becky’s big trigger. She might still be able to stay facaded if angry in an argument about Ruth, as ‘kind of a personal problem’ suggests she is. But there’s a difference even between Mostly Serious Becky and Becky when she’s actually got the mask off, and she is DEFINITELY the former here.
And I’ve gotta say, as a woman (or at least mostly woman) who has had some serious depressive episodes over the years? I truly cannot imagine myself, at my absolute worst, still set on wanting to die and using the same method SO many times. Like, if nothing else I would expect Bonnie escalating to something less ambiguous to Becky and Ross because even attempting ONCE is an act of utter desperation. If the attempt was incomplete and the situation hasn’t improved (because again, husband denying mental illness and thus also care,) that’s only going to ratchet the desperation up. I could see a much lower number, but sixteen? With the circumstances we know of Bonnie’s death? I find it HIGHLY unlikely. And also frankly kinda gross to think about, I do NOT enjoy dwelling on the thought for pretty obvious reasons.
This is so painful bc Joyce’s holier-than-thou attitude turned me off of DoA in the beginning, and now it’s back and I want to claw my eyeballs out
Hope all you guys in customer service are doing well.
I’m doing my best but damn people are terrible
“Sympathy via light physical contact”
Acknowledgement of sympathetic physical contact
“Sympathy via light physical contact”
Thought people would appreciate this:
“Come on, my brother. Don’t get up in arms . . . It’s only natural for Christians to have faith in the holy scriptures, since, from their infancy, they’ve heard so much of them. Still, it is nothing if not reasonable for those born without such prejudice, such as the Wendats, to examine matters more closely.
“However, having thought long and hard over the course of a decade about what the Jesuits have told us of the life and death of the son of the Great Spirit, any Wendat could give you twenty reasons against the notion. For myself, I’ve always held that, if it were possible that God had lowered his standards sufficiently to come down to earth, he would have done it in full view of everyone, descending in triumph, with pomp and majesty, and most publicly . . . He would have gone from nation to nation performing mighty miracles, thus giving everyone the same laws. Then we would all have had exactly the same religion, uniformly spread and equally known throughout the four corners of the world, proving to our descendants, from then till ten thousand years into the future, the truth of this religion. Instead, there are five or six hundred religions, each distinct from the other, of which according to you, the religion of the French, alone, is any good, sainted, or true.”
— Attributed to Kandiaronk, an ambassador of the Wendat Confederacy, partly translated from Barbara Alice Mann (2001), partly translated by David Graeber and David Wengrow in The Dawn of Everything (2021), from an original translation “New Voyages to North America Giving a Full Account of the Customs, Commerce, Religion, and Strange Opinions of the Savages of That Country, With Political Remarks upon the Courts of Portugal and Denmark, and the Present State of the Commerce of Those Countries” (1735), allegedly recounting dialogues that must have occurred between 1683 and 1702 during Louis-Armand Lahontan’s time in North America.
Triple Word Score Irony points is that Jesus was crucified due to the fact the traditional interpretation of the messiah would be that versus a humble carpenter’s son.
A matter of much controversy in the early Church – with strong expectations in the very early years that he would be returning as the Heavenly Messiah to lay waste to the evil doers any day now.
It was only as the years went on and that didn’t happen that Christianity as we know it today started to emerge.
Paul has a lot to answer for. So is the interpretation of the Book of Revelations as anything other than, “The Romans will stop killing us someday.”
Paul, like the rest of the early church, was grappling with the dawning realization that the Messiah would not be returning in the immediate future to bring the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth and what their entire faith could possibly mean if that wasn’t true.
I’m not really sure what he’s got to answer for, other than very probably the existence of Christianity as a religion of its own.
I feel that’s a pretty big revelation since the other apostles didn’t remotely have such issues.
I’m not even sure what you mean here. Remember that the Gospels were written well after Paul and reflect ever later understandings of the growing religion. Even there though later ideas about the afterlife are scarce – hell basically isn’t mentioned in the bible other than a few passages taken out of context.
That take does involve reading between the lines and trying to see how early Christian thought changed even as the texts that would become the Bible were written, as well as how it fit in with known existing Jewish ideas at the time.
Wow, that is a book title that puts Sir Willis to shame.
So I’m confused as to why Becky was even around if it was in the middle of her shift, did she just see Becky and Joyce talking and decide to take her break to insert herself into whatever conversation they were having?
I’m not 100% on where Gallasso’s is relative to where Joyce and Dorothy are, is it just across the street?
It’s about a 30-minute drive, by car.
Well now I’m confused at how she got over there so fast (not really, the answer is this is a comic and it will sometimes operate on comic logic)
My guess was that she was heading over for her lunch break, probably just to grab a quick bite and head on her way back. Or perhaps to meet with Dorothy but that seems unlikely. Seeing Joyce, she perhaps decided to dip out earlier than she normally would have.
Transportation.
(someone may have already said this, if so good on ya)
So Becky is sassing joyce for making a comment in a conversation that wasn’t about her, and that she wasn’t even in the same part of town for?
And your point is?
It’s a question, not a point.
The point is – Why is Joyce not allowed to have a personal and private conversation without Becky A) inviting herself into it and B) then taking offense at things which are none of her business?
I think Joyce is being a butt right now, but the original issue is 100% Becky’s nosy self getting upset Joyce was skipping class to hang out with someone Not-Becky.
They’re both teenagers with horrible stuff in their past and they both deserve time and room to deal with those issues. Joyce made sure Becky got that time and space…what’s Becky doing to help Joyce through her issue?
Couple of points:
1. Becky assumed that as a friend, Joyce would welcome hanging out with her.
2. Becky was eager to meet a fellow “cool Christian”, not realizing Liz was performatively religious.
3. Becky heard Joyce talking all manner of stuff that applied to her in a derisive condescending way.
4. When confronted about it, Joyce said that, yes, she thought Becky was a moron for believing in God.
No, Becky was jealous and facebook stalked her to stake her claim while being “ Unapologeticaly herself” Lets not rewrite history to paint her as a flawless saint now.
Becky was not eager to meet a new christian friend, she was making sure she didnt lose christian bestie place.
Speaking as someone who’s actually experienced cyberstalking, I’m so sick of this comment section acting like “seeing where someone said they were on Facebook” is at all equivalent to cyberstalking. It isn’t. Not remotely.
Cyberstalking is a repeated violation of someone’s privacy. It’s used to threaten a person and make them feel unsafe. Joyce getting caught saying shitty things in a dorm with an open door one time is not cyberstalking. Cyberstalking would be showing up everywhere Joyce posted about being, or, to use an example from my own life, figuring out Joyce’s usernames on various sites, printing off a list of Joyce’s posts from those sites that Becky took issue with, and then confronting Joyce about them when they were in a situation where Joyce could not leave, such as in a moving car. Or blackmailing Joyce with whatever she found. Or something.
It was not cyberstalking. It’s an insult to victims of cyberstalking to call it cyberstalking. Stop it.
I didnt call it cyberstalking? Just regular ol “using someone’s facebook to track where they are” stalking
It’s not stalking. It was one time. Becky has a multitude of issues, and codependency and possessiveness of Joyce are right at the top of that list, but she’s not a stalker. It’s ridiculous to call her that.
Yeah, all of this.
It’s possible to talk about Becky’s issues without going nearly that far over the top to paint her as the villain. Stalking and cyberstalking are both serious crimes. Going looking for your friend isn’t. You might have shitty reasons for doing so, but it’s still not stalking.
Becky did that out of jealousy, not out of any desire to hang out, she pretty clearly stated it.
What someone says about a topic you are passionate about, when you are not in the room, is none of your business.
No, what Joyce did was apologize for Becky having to hear that and the apology wasn’t good enough. If you were a saint when backed into a corner at 18/19 then you’re the outlier here, not Joyce.
—————–
Honestly the worst reactions and behaviour in all of this has been the comments section. Vilifying someone (Liz) for being a cringy awkward teenager, literally saying she has corrupted Joyce. Vilifying Joyce for having understandable backlash after a life spent in a box surrounded with knives and ‘or else’s instead of understanding that she’s not going through something easy and she’s currently doing it without the support or compassion of a single friend (until the last few pages where Dorothy belittled her and then allowed a hug).
When Becky went through her Nuking the Closet from Space part of coming out she was as hurtful, as brash, as non-stop and boundary stomping as Joyce is being. When people can finally breathe, sometimes they do it impolitely.
I have a lot of reasons to believe that Joyce will chill out, but I think at this point I’m done arguing with grown adults about the grace we should offer teenagers from bad upbringings. I’ll stay out of the comment section until this arc is done because it’s just hateful half the time anymore.
I think that everything Becky says should often be taken as hyperbolic and not serious. She isn’t actually Dorothy’s archenemy for example. Also, I think everything we know indicates she DID intend to hang out.
Ouch
Also I’m not sure why the suicide hotline is in the text for today’s episode, but I think that kind of promotion and awareness is good in general, so I’m just giving positive feedback for that.
As is beginning to be discussed above, we might’ve just found out from Becky that Ruth actually attempted at some point during the timeskip. She never consciously attempted during the events of the comic prior to the timeskip.
I mean, idk, it’s possible but I don’t necessarily think that’s required. She never actively attempted anything, but she did have that one moment last ‘season’ where she was you know, on heavy suicide watch. Becky freaked out explicitly over how Billie herself was involved in that whole thing, because she actually knew Billie and felt there were signs she should have recognized, but clearly she also would have maintained a concern for Ruth as well.
Methinks just the fact that Becky mentions the concept of suicide in the strip. Putting the hotline can’t really hurt, after all.
Poor everyone, it will be some till time Joyce will find some nuance (and let go of the idea she knows what everybody else should do).
And Becky, oh man, she feels so betrayed and that makes not all that much sense either.
Well, it makes sense, it’s just that sense it’s making is that Becky needs Joyce to stay the same.
Seth put it really well on Patreon yesterday: the part Becky and Dorothy waked in on, Joyce going “I was stupid enough to believe God had a plan for me,” that’s an idea that Becky draws a lot of validity from: the chaos that’s defined the last year of life was worth it, because God led her to a new life with a girlfriend, her childhood best friend, and new friends who all fought like lions to protect her. Everything bad that’s happened has happened for a reason.
Joyce is the last part of her old life and the only good part of it, they’re absurdly codependent, and then Joyce said a line that was reflected inward, that “God had a plan” is defined by the people she’s supposed to trust constantly traumatizing her,” meant to Becky: “I definitely don’t think anyone will ever meet their mom in Heaven, finding her overdosed on medication is the last interaction you’ll have.”‘
Becky’s unable to accept a changing Joyce, her stalking her to Joe’s room is a thing that at any other point in time Joyce would have found charming and hilarious because the both of them are absurdly codependent and were never taught to have a single disagreement, and so she found Joyce changing in a way she couldn’t accept because the last time Joyce tried to change in front of her, Becky called her a moron.
A friendship should probably not be based on worshipping the same entity but in mutual respect and care.
Thats where I see the fault on this. Becky seems to base the friendship on christ and Joyce fails on the last part about respect and care.
I feel like Becky could accept Joyce’s decision, with great reluctance, if it wasn’t, “I don’t believe in God and I think all people who do, you included, are stupid for doing so.”
Basic respect is a necessity for friendship.
“This is a stupid phase you need to grow out of. You’ve been at odds with your parents 30 whole seconds, remember that.” – Becky MacIntyre, a person who respects Joyce and definitely accepts Joyce changing, that one time Joyce questioned their upbringing.
She’s also dating Dina who is an atheist.
So it’s more complex than that, Spencer.
Why do you think, specifically, Becky does not have the expectation of Dina remaining religious that she has indicated she has for Joyce, my dude.
Because Becky knows Dina cares for her even if she doesn’t agree with her and respects her interest in science. Joyce has made it clear that not only will she lie to Becky’s face about her beliefs but also looks down upon her for her belief in the supernatural.
This is a fully pro-Becky take on the subject but I do believe that Joyce’s attitude is very different.
I’m saying that maybe Becky has different expectations for Joyce than she does for Dina.
Joyce is supposed to be Like This. Questioning her indoctrination in front of Becky at the party led to Becky telling her she had no idea what she was talking about; not “God is dumb and so is anyone who believes,” but that Joyce’s anger was insincere and immature in the very first conversation Joyce was having about her dwindling belief that Becky then took over.
Like, specifically and textually, Becky needs Joyce to be Her Joyce and only change in ways that Becky approves of, the way Becky was able to shake off the detritus so she could focus on “the important stuff.” Becky complained about her getting glasses for god’s sake. She fought Dorothy over it every step of the way.
(also the idea that Joyce “will lie to Becky’s face about her beliefs” is bonkers, considering Joyce is entitled to keep her religious beliefs under wraps with the person who had already been a total shitfucker about it, on the birthday of her best friend’s dead mother)
“Lie to Becky’s face”
Despite what Becky (and apparently you) believe Becky is not entitled to know what Joyce’s beliefs are, especially since she’s given no indication that it was safe to tell her
There’s no right to deceive someone. You can but don’t pretend that person is your friend. When you lie to them, you’re showing you don’t respect them and don’t care about their opinion. Hence, Joyce made the choice to end their friendship.
One of the best storylines Willis ever did was in SHORTPACKED where Ethan went over to the Dark Side, kidnapped Galasso, and ran the toy store like a dictator. It was my all time favorite story of Willis and I kind of disliked when he backslid back to “good.” I wouldn’t mind if Joyce fully embraced self-righteousness and evil for a time.
So a horse walks into a bar, the bartender asks “ Hey why the long face?”
Bojack goes off on the guy about how his lifes been trash, it lasts 4 seasons.
Dang whoda thought Becky totes has to keep Joyce in a box, and that Joyce leaving that box constitutes a betrayal.
As if:
– Becky told Joyce that she was being a stupid, insincere child the one time she ever caught her questioning her religious indoctrination.
– Becky’s a codependent nutbar and needs Joyce to think she’s going to see her mom again.
Oh right, I wanted to say this part too.
Becky needs Joyce to stay her Joyce, and that also includes being her old fundie self who just sheds everything but the “important stuff.” Specifically, the reason I think Becky’s anger is in Joyce betraying her by no longer being a Christian is that she does not hold Dina to the same standards; Dina will tell Becky to her face that there is no God and Becky is completely wrong, and Becky is fine with that. Dina is proof that God exists and when they all get to Heaven then Dina’s gonna feel really silly.
Becky does not need the people she loves to conform to her standards, she needs Joyce to do so, because Joyce is the last part of her old life that’s still worth keeping. It’s kinda tied into her sexual hangups as how she’s defined it to Dina; she wants at least one part of her that isn’t changing so fast. Everything good that Joyce has done is something Becky thinks is part of a divine plan from a God who loves her, and Joyce thinks that’s bullshit.
More charitably to Becky, she walked in on Joyce saying that the specific viewpoint Becky that gets Becky through the day, that all the chaos she’s suffered is a divine plan and she’ll see her mom again, was stupid, because Joyce resents that she used to think getting drugged at the party, nearly shot by Ross, and having her entire community betray her and Becky was part of a divine plan too.
Becky thinks the Joyce she loved only existed because Joyce was a bad Christian who was only in it to be better than you, Joyce thinks Becky’s a willful mark for something with no factual basis.
Has Dina told Becky to her face that there is no God? Because Becky was willing to drop everything else she was taught when a cute girl told her otherwise, but she still had a belief in God and Heaven. I assumed that Dina had just not bothered because those aren’t something you can disprove (like the age of the earth) or find a counterexample for.
(And if this happened in a Patreon exclusive, that might be enough to make me pay for a month, because I really really really want to see that interaction.)
Yep, when they reunited after the timeskip.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-11/01-this-bright-millennium/warn/
It was very cute.
Becky’s relationship with Dina is why I read this as Becky having a beef with Joyce, specifically, no longer believing; Becky does not need Dina to validate her feelings, Becky met Dina as an atheist and Dina is good, ergo atheists are good and will also go to Heaven, and then Becky’s gonna be in Heaven with her mom and Dina.
Dina herself talks about Joyce’s bible studies the way Joyce talks now, except the difference is that Dina has things she does believe in and then happily modifies her views in accordance with new facts, whereas Joyce just has a big ball of nothing other than that every piece of bible literalism she was taught was nonsense.
I suppose that’s an interesting question, if Dina would get mad if Satan popped out the ground with a fake dinosaur skeleton.
Ah, I see. Thanks for the link. Very cute indeed
I extra want to see Dina become Joyce’s how-to-navigate-a-Godless-life(-with-the-help-of-dinosaurs) mentor now, but I think the way I want to see it wouldn’t be nearly enough drama for this comic.
I’m probably just projecting myself onto Dina (because she’s the member of the main cast I identify with the most), but I don’t think Dina would get mad. I think she’d be very very confused, and sad that the things she cares so much about never existed, and she’d work this new piece of information into her worldview, but only after Satan provided more proof than a singular fake dinosaur skeleton (and that he was actually Satan, you know? without that proof, it’s much more likely that it’s a human trying to make money).
(It makes me sad that Becky just assumes there’s no way that Dina can be right, especially because that’s not the only place I think Becky doesn’t give Dina enough credit – https://www.dumbingofage.com/2021/comic/book-11/05-as-long-as-its-free/dvr-2/ – Dina would be upset about dinosaurs being fake, I think, because she’s cared so much about them for so long, but for something like heaven existing, she’d definitely take it in stride and work it into her worldview based on new evidence. But maybe the “I have to warn you he doesn’t exist”/”you’re proof that he does” is a conversation they’ve had before and it’s part of their normal banter? but Dina’s reaction on the next page seems to imply that this is the first time they’ve had that exchange. I don’t know. Also, because I just do not understand Becky’s relationship with her religion and God, I worry that I’m being harder on her than I should be.)
If Dina saw “satan” like that, I’d bet she’d just unmask ’em like Velma unmasked every villian from Scooby-Doo.
Becky knows Dina is an atheist and loves her still. Ditto in reverse.
Joyce is an atheist but considers Becky a moron.
There’s a big different.
Oh and this part too I guess (now I’m done for reals)
I don’t think we’re just in for “Joyce apologizes for being a Shitty Atheist to Becky” and that’s that, because Joyce didn’t start acting like this until Becky and Dorothy tracked her down to Joe’s room and took ownership of an intently private and personal conversation on a topic that Joyce is absolutely allowed to have complex opinions on. Joyce was making baby steps talking about it with Joe, she did not act like this prior, and for her to go through this only to return to that same stumbling confusion, I feel, would turn this current storyline into a speedbump for Joyce to get back to shifting through the fog trying to figure what life, the universe and herself mean anymore, which is apparently because at least Joyce isn’t making a fuss about it around her friends.
I don’t think the resolution here is that Joyce apologizes to Becky for a problem Becky caused.
What I’d hope for and what I’d think would be interesting would be for that to *be* the resolution, for Joyce to come around on her being a shitty person issues, to resolve her issues, and to apologize to Becky in full.
And then for it to not matter, because Becky’s still upset as hell for Joyce abandoning the faith, and for us to get to address the other side of the coin. It sounds like the kind of thing that could fuel drama for a good while.
I think you’re correct that any actual resolution Joyce can come to won’t really matter, and that Becky herself is going to have to acknowledge her own hangups about Joyce changing if they’re ever going to be friends again.
A Joyce that says “Becky, I got it! Christians just have a different belief in the origin of life than I do!” won’t really mean anything, because that Joyce still doesn’t think Becky’s ever going to see her mom again, and it’s important that Joyce think that because Joyce is the last part of Becky’s life that’s still around.
If I had to make a guess about the kind of thing Becky could do wrong, probably control issues. Her actions towards Ruth and Jennifer in Gender Studies show she’s fine making a bad situation “for the greater good,” it wouldn’t totally surprise me if she started pulling the “why don’t you skip this class too” card in any they share. Probably ramp up her treatment of Dorothy, though I could go either way on it causing friction with Dina.
Ooh. I like it. Gets more Becky screentime, which is good, because I’ve started to really dislike Becky during this last storyline and I think that part of that is that I just don’t understand her relationship with religion and God and there’s an ongoing fight that those relationships are very relevant to. More screentime means I can hopefully understand her better.
(Is screentime an appropriate word to use here? I am reading it on a screen after all…)
Becky shows that she understands others and is happy for them if they are happy. But she doesn’t have the same ability with her BFF because she thinks she was betrayed by her. Joyce continues to make a fool of herself by assuming that she knows what others will think. I like it♡, it’s that who helps to understand reality.
Possible plot development: Joyce & Becky continue like this for weeks (years for us), gradually restoring their friendship. Meanwhile, Dorothy is always caught in the middle until she is so bored that she is counting the hours to leave Bloomington for New Haven.
No real sane person thinks what Joyce is thinking these days, hope this ends fast
See, Joyce’s actual thoughts, when Becky is not around to muck things up, are a lot more nuanced and introspective.
– I’m just a monkey! *flails around and screams*
– Heaven and Hell aren’t real, but the person I was is still Joyce.
– They/Them pronouns are new to me but I will be sure to educate myself on my own time.
– Maybe growing up in a death cult that resulted in my kidnapping and near murder was bullshit.
“Sky wizard” commentary is something that’s only happened when Joyce’s douchebag friends took ownership of what the dissolution of Joyce’s lifetime indoctrination meant to her. Not a one of them has even asked why this is happening, they don’t care. They just want their idiot fundie back because watching her make angry faces when you call her a moron for thinking the Earth is 6000 years old is hilarious.
Yeah, Joyce was pretty obviously uncertain before Becky confronted her and she dug in.
Side note because I’m not sure where else to mention it
Has anyone else been getting an obnoxious Otterbox ad that makes the site a pain to navigate on mobile
Nope. But I use ecosia to browse mobile. Maybe that would help.
It really strikes me here how much Becky cares and is looking out for Ruth, in a subtle enough way that Ruth (and perhaps anyone else) might not even spot it.
Makes me think of times when I’ve heard people I know say they don’t have any close friends and overlooked all the people around them who are perfectly there and available for them, only they’ve not noticed them, reached out to them, or believed in them as genuine friends on a deeper level.
Ginger Alliance
It rules that, in canon, Becky warped here from Galasso’s when someone mentioned the possibility of her not being a lesbian.
me looking at this comment section: hmmmm. nope.
passerby: are you sure we have this ten-foot pole
me: gimme that, I’m going to find the Grinch and show the singer of that song how things are done.
damn go Becky. Wish my friends had cared about that.
Well, I agreed with Becky for exactly two panels and then she went back to getting on my nerves again with the last panel.
Becky’s leaving… can I go with her?
Joyce has somehow become more annoying as an Athiest than she did as a Christian Extremist. I didn’t think that was possible.
She dated a gay dude to make him straight.
Yeah Joyce was SUPER worse as a fundie. Like objectively so
She was definitely worse at the start.
But she got a lot better, even before the first real signs that she was losing her faith.
Now she’s regressed. Certainly better than at the beginning of the semester, but not so much so as part way through her growth last semester. And it feels worse, because it’s regression. We’ve already seen her be better than this.
She’ll work through it again, from a different angle this time. I’ve got faith in her. And honestly, it should be expected. Personal growth isn’t a straight line.
If I remember the story, she didn’t want to convert Ethan to heterosexuality.
She actually wanted to date Ethan because she didn’t want any form of sex in their relationship.
Which is a bit different and an observance of Booster that Joyce has never been on the fundie train.
She was in fact dating for the explicitly stated purpose of weening him off the liking dudes things. That second line you’ve got there isn’t entirely wrong, but it’s out of context.
More personally, it was gratifying to her to find someone who had as much revulsion to sex as she does, and she felt safe with him because he was a man who could never, ever want to have sex with her, because Joyce had been recently been severely traumatized due to being attacked at the party.
Joyce once paid Mike to beat the shit outa Joe
She did more evil stuff as a fundie, but it wasn’t as annoying.
Well as a Fundie she was at least well meaning, now she is just mean-ing
Becky is showing growth that I like. Joyce is digging her heels in though which is aggravating
Thanks for the warning, Willis.
What I find interesting is how, since Willis claimed that Joyce was nearly autobiographic, he apparently had such a horribly self-aggrandizing period when he discovered atheism, but is now able to have a very sensible portrayal of the soul struggles of believers in all their contradictions.
I called the suicide hotline once, back in college. It was helpful. Helpful in that the lady sounded so bored that it made suicide seem embarrassing.
I mean that unsarcastically – I ended up not killing myself, after all.
Damn, that’s like…a dark sitcom scenario.
Congratulations on succeeding despite everything. Hope you are doing better these days.
Oh, in retrospect, the scenario was pretty funny. I’m doing way better now, thank you!
It’s moments like this in my life and others that make me wonder whether or not I’m living in a cartoon or something.
I’m glad to here that it helped you! And I also hope you’re feeling better now!
Oh god, I’ve been there, it sucks. In my case, it was technically a crisis hotline and not a suicide hotline. in addition to being really bored, the promise they made that people would come take me to the hospital turned out a lie.
Actually ended up working a few years later at a suicide hotline, mostly out of a desire to be better than that for someone else.
Hope you’re doing alright!
They LIED about people coming to take you to the hospital?
That can’t be legal.
love that wlw solidarity. do not love what joyce is up to
You know what I think would be an interesting development, for Joyce to meet someone who went from atheist (or at least non religious) to finding religion
Wow, Becky. You and Joyce are both kinda wrong about several things, aren’t you?
We’re gonna get a scene of them realizing that and reuniting in less than five years, right?
…right?
It may very well be less than five years.
Time can be saved like this, but at a cost.
Be careful what you wish for.
You know mark twain said something to the effect “most rakehells are worse after they’re reformed than before they weren’t ”
meaning that when you’ve “found” a new way or reason of/for living you’re going to be super pious and try to reform/save everyone to see what ever version of “the light”you’ve discovered
Man, Joyce is getting out-dueled left and right. Snap snap.