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I can’t quite imagine that working out well. That’s a total 180 for Joyce, and the last panel suggests she’s going to be having some serious trouble keeping that up. For Larisa, signing up to become a succubus was more like a gifted amateur signing up to go professional.
Same. Joyce has started to say some of what made her not believe in “the sky wizard” which should help communicate with Becky. They don’t really get what the important parts are for each other.
Has she really started to say that though?
All we get here is “you can have sex because there’s no hell”. Which is close to the Christian parody of atheism they were taught: Without fear of punishment atheists have no morals.
And it’s still framed in an attempt to get Becky to deconvert rather than an attempt to communicate and accept each other – to reassure Becky that even though Joyce isn’t Christian, Becky isn’t losing her.
“deconvert”
nice word, we haven’t got it in my language.
(well for agricultural needs it is used somehow, but as a forced translation from english mainly, and it isn’t attested in serious dictionaries – as well a “debelieve/unbelieve” (prefix doesnt work the same way) which is used to express reverse brainwash from authoritarian regimes)
Closest we got would be
apostatize
defrock (for clergy, monks and nuns only; but used by analogy – rarely)
Agreed. There’s no, “I will care about and accept you no matter what you believe.” It’s just, “You are free to believe what I believe and give up your own faith, the bedrock of your sense of personal identity and self conception, if you don’t want to be left behind.”
When “hanky-panky” was used in “Luann” the other day, I immediately thought of Joyce.
Also, while I was typing this, I thought about how her dad’s name is Hank, which I guess is like if someone was named Fu– not really weird, but depending on the last name…
I wish Hank’s last name was Pank.
Whenever I go to say “pho” aloud, I panic and get stuck between an attempt at an authentic pronunciation and going with the bastardized pronunciation that I first learned, and it comes out as a weird neither-sound that may be incomprehensible were I not ordering at a restaurant where pho is, like, the main thing.
Anyway.
What is french disco?
I mean I’m french, I don’t know if this is a specific american term. I only learnt what were french fries or french press in my late twenty.
“Hey man, you know what I said about having sex before you’re married”
“I don’t even know you. Why do you care so much!?”
“I’m just saying, you should put a ring on that first.”
Have i not awakened your mighty wrath yet o Spambot?
Of course you strike at unsuspecting victims only. One has a reputation to maintain. It wouldn’t be Sobek-oming of you to gnash at a blatant taunt.
look i’m really busy sipping sports drinks for some reason but listen, i have thoughts regarding that statement you made about crocodilians…. but let’s not go down that alley. Gatorade-drinking is more fun and i will stick to that for now.
(Okay the sarcasm text was probably a little much, sorry… It’s been asked a few times though. The cold isn’t that bad unless you hit a salty puddle or you’re trudging across the tundra or something, and dry pavement in the sun is fine.)
Not if all the nerves in your feet died years ago.
Alternatively, this is a super power and Sierra was the only abductee before this universe’s Head Alien was killed off by all the disease bacteria he wasn’t prepared for.
Regardless of whether or not an afterlife or god(s) exist, this is kind of at the heart of why I’m highly skeptical about the idea of religious belief having some intrinsic moral value.
This kind of imagined love that can be found anywhere is not just a resource to comfort the meek — it’s a resource for anyone, including bullies, corrupt politicians, adulterers, manipulators, etc., who can and do use it to justify the idea that the gods are on THEIR side.
That’s why I said I find fundies less annoying. They’re wrong, but they are following something concrete.
Once you start making it up as you go along based on “Love and Faith” (or whatever you value) you unmoor yourself from any evaluation or critical analysis. You’re just giving your own existing worldview the weight of a god behind it.
Okay, it’s tempting to think that’s how this works… if you take everything that fundies believe as on-its-face correct that it’s what the Bible actually says.
In actuality, fundamentalism is EXTREMELY inconsistent with itself. Like, for instance, there’s not actually a lot of evidence, from a Biblical perspective, that there is even a hell. Like, seriously, read up on it, all of the references to it are actually references to other things entirely, such as Sheol (a Jewish underworld, not great but not a place of punishment, and everyone goes there), the Greek god Hades (not even the Greek underworld, but literally just the god of it), a garbage pile, etc. But because some groups of translators decided that THEY believed in Hell, they read THEIR belief into these disparate passages referring to lots of different things and made up Hell out of kind of whole cloth. So just… keep an open mind when someone says that they’re a Christian but they don’t believe in eternal punishment, it’s more supported than you’d think.
Hell, there are even ancient (admittedly non-canonical) books of the Bible, such as the Apocalypse of Peter, that deals with whether or not there is one, an in that aforementioned book, Jesus tells Peter that it exists, but it’s empty; nobody actually gets sent there. Now, I haven’t read it myself, and the wording is vague enough that he might be saygin something else, but that was generally how church fathers interpreted it, when it ALMOST made it into the recommended books (which later on became declared the canon, but at the time was more a recommended reading list of books that they didn’t think taught any heresies, and were easy to come by) back when they were deciding that.
What if?
Then you still lived a life based on love. Would it not be even more intellectually dishonest to worship a God who did not share your values just because of fear of punishment?
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” — Marcus Aurelius
Why frame it as “instead”, when none of these rough conversations have ever been zero-sum or substitutional? Is that a word? I’m calling it a word. Sometimes friends joke with each other during serious conversations.
I used to read his blog posts criticizing those books, and other stuff he posted on his blog too, but I’m pretty sure he hasn’t made a new post about the Left Behind series in years.
That makeout tier is an excellent incentive and more people should include them in their crowdfunding. How often do you get legally official art of your favorite characters totally smoochin’ it up?
Also I said that before I remembered I DID draw something like this.
Y’know, except with Becky in the middle…and lipstick marks cuz that’s a thing I’m into. https://i.imgur.com/aX0NyXV.png
Pregnancy and STI avoidance are good reasons as well. However unless Dina is a trans girl, pregnancy is irrelevant to these two. I do hope someone has given them information about STIs, though. There’s a good arc in Girls With Slingshots about lesbian protection.
Could also be in the grey area of the Ace umbrella. Find people attractive as an idea but not enough to settle for anything less than exactly what they want because they don’t care that much.
Okay so my reaction to the first panel is “oh god why, Joyce fucking Why?” I mean as a reader I’m thrilled because I want romance, drama, bloodshed! ~ Mettaton 2015 I want this feud to go on continually and be more than a one-story blip. But as a fellow atheist I’m like “Joyce that was, with surgical precision, the *worst* thing you could have said there.”
This actually hurt to read, and I loved every second of it.
(And okay the last panel wrapped it back to being hilarious, Smug!Joyce is just as good as Classic!Joyce with them.)
I want it go at least long enough that we can see who Becky is without her friendship with Joyce– it’s just too interesting of a character angle for her to ignore.
A person has to free themselves, Joyce. And she should know that appeal isn’t what makes a person realize there’s no gods. She just went through that. Still believing the stereotypes TT
I still hate this because this isn’t a “hey it’s ok if you believe what you believe and it’s ok if I believe what I believe.” Joyce is still trying to convert Becky and I simply don’t like it. At the very least there’s a way to have this conversation that doesn’t sound smarmy and self-satisfied.
Becky is trying to convert Joyce as well though. So it’s mutual assholery. I wonder if Dorothy is aware that Becky is digging her heels in on needing Joyce to be her “bestie in Christ” considering Dorothy insisted Joyce apologize. (Joyce did still owe an apology – but not for being atheist)
Becky made one comment about it two strips ago. Clearly it’s something that troubles Becky, but it’s not mutual assholery, it’s a massive fuckton on one end and a light counterpunch on the other.
yeah, they are both being kind of shitty right now (and have been so for a while). But they are talking so I guess that is a plus. The only question left is if they can respect each others believes-
They’re probably used to shenanigans at Galasso’s Pizza (And Subs), sorta like that one restaurant where they throw rolls at your head or any dine-in fast food place.
I’m not even sure how many of those there are. The food wait is mostly the cooking, and there’s likely only one person at most after Joyce assigned to Becky. None, if Glasso is aware enough to see this convo coming.
Really this exchange hasn’t taken super long so far. I’ve been in diners with family that have casally chatted with waiters/waitresses for much longer.
Well, at least this conversation started out well. Joyce really can’t do anything in a manner that isn’t just as in-your-face as Becky is known for, can she? As obnoxious as Becky can be, she is never unpleasant about it like Joyce absolutely can be.
Wonder why that is? Is Becky that much better at being sly with such contempt, or is it more like the paradoxical “Cool clothes make you popular, cloths are cool if you’re popular”?
I think its just more that there’s almost never any contempt in Becky’s words, at least when she’s being obnoxious. It’s so clearly a show most of the time that, while still annoying and frustrating and obnoxious, isn’t actively malicious.
I think that, if Dorothy ever felt any real contempt from Becky, she would call her out on it.
Don’t get me wrong, if I were in Dorothy’s place I would’ve torn Becky’s throat out by now, girl has the patience of a fucking supercomputer for sticking through it all. But it’s never been malicious, it’s never been hateful, it’s just been Becky’s way of trying to secure dominance and relative importance with Joyce.
Let’s be simple about it: Dorothy would, in no way, have agreed to be Becky’s roommate if she felt Becky was being malicious towards her. She can take the obnoxiousness apparently, but if there was actual vitriol behind the words, she would’ve said no.
I don’t think they get a choice about who their roommates are, really; iirc they’re assigned.
Either way, Dorothy is absolutely the kind of person who would try to build bridges, especially with someone close to Joyce. There’s no benefit to calling Becky on anything, you’ll just lose by collateral damage. And I suspect you’re right that the verbal cruelty is Becky asserting dominance.
But if we’re being blunt, here’s more of it: Becky wants Dorothy to feel lesser and small. That’s dominance. Becky wants Dorothy to flinch. That Dorothy hasn’t given it to her is laudable, that Dorothy can tolerate it is miraculous. That does not render Becky’s behavior okay in any way, does not mean she’s not being mean, and does not mean she should get a pass.
She gets a pass because she always does, and that’s not okay either.
We’ve seen her manipulate Ruth and Jennifer. Both Leslie and Robin as well. She adjusts herself to the person. Not so much interaction between Becky and Mike, which would have been interesting.
I mean, she hasn’t done to Leslie and Robin what she does to her friends.
More specifically to Leslie, she’s also someone who can’t criticize Becky in the slightest, so it’s not surprising she’d go “oh, you devious little stinker, you!” when Becky openly annoyed Ruth and Jennifer in class by bouncing up and down screaming about their love life.
Oh yes. Becky’s never unpleasant. Not when she’s kicking people out of Joyce’s life. Not when she’s relentlessly and viciously bullying Dorothy for daring to be friends with Joyce. Not when she’s leeeeeaning on whatever of Joyce’s neuroses she can find to send Joyce into brief Catalonia because the face she makes us just hilarious.
Yup. Becky’s never ever been unpleasant. Not once.
Joyce, Becky, nobody is leaving anyone behind, Joyce is leaving Christianity behind, she’s still Joyce, she’ll still put her life on the line to help Becky
At least they’re being civil here, so that’s progress
You have to remember though, that Becky’s reaction to finding out that Joyce was hiding Dorothy from her because Dorothy’s an atheist was “Well, that’s just nuts. Even I’m only into cooters.” And while it reads as a joke, on reflection it seems that… maybe it wasn’t really?
Dorothy didn’t grow up in an environment where The Outsiders were strange and frightening.
There’s a difference between Joyce meeting Dorothy as an atheist (or more specifically, meeting Dorothy and assuming she was also a Christian, whereupon she is utterly flabbergasted to discover the truth) and Joyce and Becky disagreeing on something that’s defined their entire lives.
This conflict is great cause even at their most reasonable Becky can’t accept Joyce being an atheist and Joyce can’t accept Becky being a Christian. Like even without the shouting and smug satisfied smiles they’re still struggling with the fact that the closest people to you can disagree on beliefs. Love an arc about how Joyce and Becky haven’t moved past the absolute elements of their upbringing
I’ve been an avowed agnostic for effectively all of my life, but really only nailed down what that meant for me personally when I was in college and started really thinking about it (turns out, going to a college with very active pro-Israel and pro-Muslim student organizations creates *drama*, and I think that’s more the “Student Organization” part than anything).
And, in my decade plus since then? While I’ve had many discussions of faith and belief and such with those who are Christians and such, you know what I’ve never done?
Try to fucking convert them.
This shit is what’s pissing me off with Joyce right now, trying to convert someone who is happy and comfortable with their faith. Becky isn’t struggling with what it means to be Christian, she isn’t having difficulty reconciling her faith with her being a lesbian, she isn’t using her faith to lash out at others (well, aside from one comment two strips ago which was a dick move, but also might’ve been a last-panel-joke-setup thing).
And still Joyce looks at her and goes “I MUST SAVE HER FROM HER EVIL AND WICKED FAITH”. And fuck her in particular for using Dina as an example here, someone who’s never judged Becky for being Christian (not when there were so many scientific inaccuracies to tear away from her first).
Seriously, this is the kinda shit you’d expect to see from a fucking Chick Tract talking about the seductive evil of Atheists. Also probably why Joyce is doing it, it’s how she imagines Atheists act…
Not lash out, but… Joyce is used to passive agressive conversion bullshit. ANYTHING Becky has said in favor of religion in the past few months will have been grating at her.
And yes, Becky is perfectly entitled to be hurt after overhearing Joyce implicitly call her stupid. But she’s also bringing to bear (and has for a while, ever since Joyce started doubting and she didn’t) a whole lotta “How dare you doubt?”
Yeah, it’s amazing to me how like 48% of these threads seem to be people who are outraged that everyone thinks Joyce is an awful dick and is woobifying Becky, then 48% are outraged that Becky is being an awful dick and we’re woobifying Joyce…like, they are, and have been, reasonably awful and immature at all points in this in several ways. It’s their reasonable immaturity which does that.
…I honestly haven’t seen a lot of “how dare you doubt” from Becky, exactly.
Oh, there’s certainly some there. Becky’s clearly hurt by Joyce not being Christian anymore, and that’s some shit that she’s going to need to get sorted, and it doesn’t reflect well on her.
But the view I’ve been taking is just that, at least lately, Becky is hurt but largely in a place where she’d be able to move on if given the chance… and Joyce is not letting her by constantly forcing these arguments. This isn’t a situation where Joyce is an Atheist and Becky is struggling to cope with that, because while that might be true, it’s missing out on what’s going on with Joyce.
This is a situation where Newly-Openly-Atheist-Joyce is practically going “If you want to still be friends with me, you need to stop being Christian” to Becky. Joyce is demanding conversion from someone happy with their faith.
Also… lets be blunt about something. If Becky really, truly wanted Joyce to be Christian again in a way similar to how Joyce wants Becky to not be Christian… all Becky has to do is call Joyce’s mother. It’d be an abso-fucking-lutely terrible thing to do, obviously, but it’d be a low-effort thing to do. And Becky hasn’t even so much as come close to implying that she’d ever do that.
My point is just more that, if Becky were the awful person that the comments seem to be implying she are a lot of the time, that is something she’d at least consider. She wants Joyce to be safe and happy and secure. Christian as well would be nice, but it’s not at all close to those other things in terms of Becky’s priorities, just as “willing to be kissy with Becky” is.
Why would she ever consider it considering that would 1: put Becky in danger because Joyce’s mom 10000% sided with toedad and thus would possibly try to force Becky into a reformation camp and 2: would only cause Joyce to doube down harder out of all the anger she has at her mom right now..
How would calling Carol get Joyce to be christian again? How would it benefit Becky in any way?
It’d be an awful thing to do but it’d also be a stupid thing to do, and while Becky is neither, I do want to stress that a person not doing or even considering a catastrophically stupid thing is a poor judge of morality.
A deliberately horrible thing that would hurt yourself as much or more than the target and would accomplish the opposite of the desired result, at that
Honestly I suspect it would put Joyce in more danger, remember Carol wants to pull her out of college (and I suspect the last time we saw her she was going to attempt just that before getting suplexed by Ruth)
Remember “I would die for you”
I know Atheism and being LGBT aren’t at all comparable but do you think Carol will be willing to make that distinction
Oh yeah, we can’t forget the life-changing, transformative $20 bill that was somehow gonna work some sort of miracle if the comments were to be believed.
Definitely one of my favorite things in this entire webcomic. What seemed like a bit of frivolity that sparked endless harangues among the commentariat and was then completely recontextualized a year later with Toedad’s “Your hair is your womanhood” nonsense.
Yeah, I can’t see calling Carol even crossing Becky’s mind. There’s nothing to gain there, no matter how nasty you think Becky is.
Calling Hank however is a possible card to play. Not nearly as horrific, much more supportive of Becky and still likely to be bothered by Joyce’s loss of faith and possibly able to apply pressure to her in a way that Carol really can’t.
Hank is definitely way more supportive of Becky than Carol would be, is I think how that should be read (as opposed to ‘more supportive of Becky than Joyce,’ which, yeah, he clearly loves Becky and recognizes she’s family now but does so because JOYCE said ‘nope, she is my sister now because her dad is trash.’ Which is probably a factor in Becky’s insecurities too – her safety net is almost entirely through Joyce, and she doesn’t trust Leslie or Robin to be permanent and reliable backup. Doesn’t excuse her clinginess, of course, but there’s a lot wrapped up in it including some genuine concerns.)
I thought thejeff was saying Becky tattling on Joyce to Hank would be “more supportive” of Becky, since it followed why Becky wouldn’t call Carol and then that he could “apply pressure.”
Becky calling Joyce’s family (unless she has a separate, regular line of contact with Jocelyne and was trying to process things, maybe) would be shitty regardless. I’m hoping Becky, having lived through everything with Ross, would avoid doing that because she doesn’t think parents need to get involved and potentially take… y’know, drastic measures. But I’d expect she also hasn’t yet because she thinks Joyce being an atheist is ‘overreacting’ so she wants to ‘fix’ this. So I’d hope not, but nonetheless, I could see Becky kind of wanting to fix this IF she trusts Hank enough to pressure Joyce without jumping to pulling her out of college. I expect not, especially since it would almost certainly be a friendship-ender after last semester and they WILL make up eventually, but possible.
Yep. Call Carol, Joyce is DEFINITELY getting kidnapped and maybe also Becky is too. Either way, there is no coming back from that friendshipwise and Becky would know that.
Call Hank? There’s a chance he doesn’t completely freak the fuck out. I wouldn’t expect Becky to trust him enough not to after everything with her dad, but it’s possible.
Jocelyne is on the whole fairly safe but I don’t think Becky would call her unless they are in semi-regular contact independent of Joyce. Generally, I think (hope) Becky’s aware enough bringing one of Joyce’s family members into this all would escalate things to try and avoid doing so. Jocelyne would escalate the least, but I don’t think she has significantly more rapport with Joyce than Becky for it to seem worthwhile in Becky’s eyes unless she was trying to process her own feelings with the adoptive older sibling who had her back and helped her break into her own house to get her birth certificate.
Yeah, evangelical atheists (as I like to call them) are every bit as annoying as over-zealous proselytizers for any other faith. I may disagree with others’ beliefs, but I’m not going to try and change those beliefs. Of course, if they insist on trying to convert me, I’ll cheerfully rip their arguments to shreds. And since fundies tend to do a lot of cherry-picking with their interpretation of the Bible, there’s a good chance I actually know more about it than they do.
I take that last panel as Joyce realizing she’s not quite as worldly and mature as she thought she was. Becky’s bemused smirk is a positive development, too. (Especially after Joyce cracked her mask yesterday.)
Like I said the other day, the least they can do is stop making the rift in their friendship worse.
Yeah, like, people are mad at Becky for not giving Joyce what she needs, I ask, how should Becky know what Joyce needs? Communicating something more nuanced than “Renounce your foolish invisible sky wizard or else” seems like a start.
And certaingly, Becky’s own needs are more obvious, but she needs to communicate if she feels abandoned because they don’t believe the same things or because she’s simply not used to how Joyce is acting.
Becky’s line to Dina “You are proof God exists” springs to mind. . .
You might as well ask what the universe has done for her. Try to prove the universe doesn’t exist, prove things would exist without it. As long as there are things, don’t those things existing prove the existence of a universe in which things exist, rather than don’t exist?
You’re arguing semantics, Becky might say. Jesus is her name for the universe.
There is a very big difference between “The universe exists” and “The universe has a sentient will and loves me specifically and has set things in motion to give me good things (at the cost of most of my friends being put through severely traumatic events, which was just a necessary part of the universe’s plan to give me good things for some reason)”.. That’s not just semantics..
I dunno, I doubt Jesus was there for Becky, he certainly wasn’t there when Joyce’s church bailed him out for attempted kidnapping and (technically speaking) shooting up a school. he was also not there for her when a dude fucking kidnapped her friends because some dude was salty about child support, together with her father.
personally this is a pointless argument cuz no one HAS to be left behind, but if we’re looking a stuff from this kind of lens than, yknow, Jesus took the wheel and he crashed the car into a grandma and then an orphanage
I think the point is that her believe in Jesus gave her emotional strength in these times. Which is something we can’t really argue against.
As long as she is not a dick about it and her faith makes her feel content trying to deconvert her is as shitty as her trying to convert someone else.
“Jesus take the wheel” as a saying has never made much sense to me. If Jesus existed, he would’ve lived in a time long before cars were invented, so why would he know how to drive one?
The concept of Jesus in her corner was an emotional crutch for her to hold onto that gave her the fortitude to take what happened with her and come out of the other side. You can say you don’t believe Jesus was there for her. I mean I don’t believe in Jesus in general. But i believe that her faith at least provided HER some comfort in those trying times. And trying to rip that from her to give her “something better” isn’t necessarily what she needs right now.
It’s funny, I honestly can’t tell how well this is going at the moment. It feels… less vitriolic? Despite the jabs, it feels like the middle panel is her joking WITH Joyce rather than insulting her.
I hate this kind of atheist. I understand having your own belief, but going around basically saying “our side is better than yours” when the other person has explained to you that they have THEIR reasons for their faith and basically saying they are stupid for it is another thing entirely.
I mean, basically knocking/mocking others for their faith is the worst.
She just inverted her old evangelical playbook, because it’s what she has to work with. Hopefully she’ll calm down from this vehement anti-theist phase eventually.
As she is very newly an atheist from a very culty version of christianity I’m going to give her a pass on some jerk behaviour for a bit. One does not smoothly transition from that without some bumps.
Also she only started acting like this after she was dragged into a fight and forced to justify her newfound beliefs.
If I’m being blunt, it’s actually outrageous to me that the audience response has been so fixated on “being mean to poor Becky and Christians :(” when all of this started because Becky’s a possessive nut. Like the rest of the universe just faded away because Joyce is kind of upset for like five minutes.
Honestly, it’s because Joyce’s response to fucking up was quadrupling down on it. She’s learning, but like a kid being potty trained, it’s still pretty gross when Joyce misses the bowl.
It doesn’t matter what she actually said. It only matters what other people decided she said based on whatever portion happened to cross their ears. That’s how it works and it’s her responsibility to make sure everyone around her is constantly appeased 100% of the time or she’s a morally bankrupt troublemaker who’s just there to ruin their day and harm them as much as she can.
Agreed to both. This is 100% an understandable development because of her upbringing and I recognize that and it takes some time to recognize and unlearn; nonetheless, cringing to watch.
I am not sure I am getting this right. Is she flushing out because it took a little while for Joyce to fully clock she had said “sex”, or is she reacting to considering herself as an adult and referring to herself as an actual adult make the flush out? If it’s the second one, I am not sure I am getting why.
I don’t know what it means to be an Edgy Atheist to an institution that makes life miserable for the marginalized in your society all the time, and also raised you in such a way that you’ve almost been murdered a whole bunch.
Look, if an Edgy Atheist was talking smack about Muslim, Jewish and Hindu folks, that’d be one thing, that’s actual harmful prejudice at that point because they would be engaging in a kind of punching down lionized and enforced by the society they live in, because that society they live in is defined by Christian norms enforced by their power base.
I’m an atheist (or whatever it means to think “well I’m not opposed to the existence of a God, but I’m not betting on it”) but I still formed my views and experiences from growing up in a country that is culturally Christian. Regalli put it in a way that really helped shape my views recently; I am a Culturally Christian Atheist and I still engage with my country and culture through morals taught to me by a Christian upbringing, and consequently, I have the same ability to cause harm to people who are not culturally Christian. It’d be wrong of me to be as vitriolic to another religion in a way that, bluntly, it is not at all to be to North American Christianity, because faith is what Canadian Muslims have and having that faith costs them their jobs if they’re unlucky enough to live in Quebec, whereas Canadian Christians (and, y’know, a specific kind of Canadian Christian that we’ve got in aplomb) do have that power, and they use that power to vote pasty old white dudes into office.
You don’t need to defend the cultural institution of North American Christianity from traumatized children. Both sides are not actually the same here.
I think the term you’re looking for is agnostic. Specifically Atheist agnostic. Also I’m gonna be honest, I think while living in North America means the prevalence of Christianity shapes society I think you should respect people’s beliefs, both ways. I mean it’s not as if Islam or Judaism are bereft of toxic beliefs and just because they’re the minority in America doesn’t mean that those religions can’t have similar effects in countries where they are more predominant religion. But I still think they have the right to believe and practice what they believe. I’d just prefer they practice it in a way that doesn’t harm anyone else, which Becky seems to try to be doing.
If you want to shit on people’s religion, that’s fine. Just be ok with those people not wanting to associate with you either. It’s sad but if Becky doesn’t wanna convert and Joyce doesn’t want to associate with Christians then their friendship dies here. A lot of people these days are used to hating each other and burning bridges. It’s just part of growing up.
It’s great that everyone is constantly mad at and hateful toward each other for everything, all the time now. Just gotta pick a reason, find a person, and fire away. It’s definitely not horrible for our collective mental health, being constantly bombarded with the worst things possible, day after day after day after day.
Not saying anyone here is participating in that, just adding/agreeing with that second-last sentence of yours.
Honestly I’m just sick of it. I’m sick of all of it. I’m so sick of having to deal with people. I’m always sad, or upset, or frustrated. And y’know what? I don’t think getting therapy will fix that. The problem isn’t me. it’s that human beings fucking suck. Even the so called “good ones” are hypocritical, argumentative, unaccommodating, uncaring and nepotistic. And I’m not free of any of that. I just internalize all this hatred because at a certain point I have to wonder if I’m the problem. And I hate that I have to fucking deal with it because the ONLY alternative is dying. I see now why people go off the grid and live in the mountains and shit because Hell truly is Other People.
Being online fucking sucks, because everyone else online is also a person.
Describe to me, specifically, why I need to give the benefit of the doubt to the largest, most powerful cultural force in the country I live in, that does the thing that all large and powerful cultural forces engage in.
Which, y’know, was a not-at-all-subtext to talking about Christianity in North America.
My dad loved me enough that I mattered more than a lifetime of being told liking dudes made me subhuman. Why the fuck is that even a thing he was told? Why is that a thing I had to luck out on?
You don’t have to. And you can choose not to. I give people the benefit of the doubt because I want to. I want to believe in people and I want to understand them. If you hate people for what they belief and hate their beliefs then you can. I literally can’t stop you. I’m not gonna lie, I think if you hate christianity you should just hate all secular religion because a lot of it has the same effects in countries where they’re more prevalent. Being a minority somewhere doesn’t automatically change that. If it’s the harm an ideology can cause is the problem then we should at least EQUALLY hate all of these religions.
I, personally, am tired of hating things. I’ll call out someone’s shitty behavior BECAUSE of their religion but I won’t hate someone because of their beliefs and I hope nobody will hate me because of mine.
No, see, you’re confusing “religious belief” with “the actions done by a religion in the space where it’s most powerful.” There’s a reason why I’m being pretty clear on that, and it’s not as binary as you’re making it.
I don’t hate anyone for what they believe, I hate what the institutions they follow do when they have no regulation, and I hate when a follower of that institution pisses and moans that getting some attitude on the internet is any kind of equivalent pain.
More specifically, if your belief tells you hate people like me, you’re goddamned right I’m going to hate your fucking belief, and I’m gonna hate you if you don’t believe in that part but reap the rewards of being in a majority anyway.
I benefit from systemic racism and sexism because I’m a white dude, and conversely I suffer in areas thanks to being neurodivergent and queer. I ain’t out here going #NotAllMen; being a part of a majority means being cognizant of how you benefit from it and what can be done to make it better for everyone.
You’re not wrong but I don’t really want to live my life like that. You can believe what you want. If organized religion dies then it’s no skin off my ass. I’m not religious. Honestly I’m just not up for the hate train, dude. It’s killing me.
I wish I wasn’t alive so I could look at the problem objectively outside of my personal reaction but like..I exist and I want to be good to people, even if I don’t agree with them. But that’s not gonna happen. It’s never gonna happen. The world’s not gonna improve and we’ll live in this discourse for the rest of our lives. And I’m tired. I’m so tired. I accept that my opinion doesn’t matter, I’ve never suffered. And the world’s never gonna be tolerable. We’re not fixing this. At least not in my lifetime.
Yotomoe, I think your opinion matters. It matters to us. Everyone suffers in their own way, and the extent of one’s suffering does not determine the validity of one’s opinion.
Sadly, no matter how many times it’s pointed out that Christianity’s influence as a religion isn’t theoretical but real in a negative way for a lot people right down to the beliefs of even atheists, there’s still a lot of pushback as if Christianity being attacked is the same as any other religion(which is nonsense). Like even if you think Joyce is the worst for how she’s acting, her actions are a byproduct of a Christian upbringing, her smugness and attempts to convert Becky are Christian in nature(as is Becky’s dismissal of Joyce’s atheism as too extreme). But I guess a couple commenters here think all that cultural baggage doesn’t exist in this arc/argument/fight
Joyce hasn’t talked smack about Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc *yet*.
But while her mindset has been full-bore on “Christianity is for dummy dumb dumbs who are dumb and do dumb things”, do you really think she’s going to make the distinction that those who have non-Christian forms of worship deserve tolerance and respect?
You know, given how she’s been a lot less “anti-Christian” and a lot more “extremely pro-Atheist”?
If she ran into Raidah, she’d…
…
God, anyone else want to see her run into Raidah? Preferably from a long distance away, behind a few dozen sheets of bulletproof glass?
I wouldn’t be surprised, so much as I’m considering the possibility that Joyce’s current beliefs of “everything my parents told me was bad is Good, Actually” would lead her towards not acting the same way. The way she makes an impassioned plea to Ruth that “Hell isn’t real” kinda makes me think she’s still running on “everyone’s a Christian by default!” and from there we don’t technically know Joyce’s opinion on non-Christian faiths other than that her parents probably told her they were bad.
But, that’s obviously just a theory I won’t put any hard stake into. It’s really the difference between “Joyce needs to learn a lesson about treating faiths new to her” and “comedically subverting the part where Joyce needs to learn this specific lesson, since the specifics of how she processes things means she skipped over it.”
Yeah, I’m not convinced Jesus was actually there for Becky. He certainly didn’t do anything to prevent her from going through all sorts of traumatic experiences largely caused by her shitty dad’s religious beliefs.
I’m not sure Becky understands that there was a very real chance Joyce could have turned her over to Toedad with a smile fully believing it was the right thing to do for Becky
It certainly would have likely been in line with what their church was teaching them
God inspired doctors to heal them. Things get a lot easier with “a nice Deism,” as Dorothy suggested. If you start developing equivalencies, such as “the Holy Spirit” = “the Light” = “Nature” = “the Way” = “the Tao” = “the Universe” = “Fate” = “Divine Inspiration” = “genetic self-interest” = “Chi” = ” = “the effects of free will in a deterministic universe that has the Uncertainty Principle at its base and unpredictable chaos self-realizing in all its permutations” then you can say anything about religion and have it mean what you want it to mean.
This just bugs me cuz, like i know if i were Becky I’d take panel 1 as a confirmation of my insecurities. I’d read it as an implicit “i WILL leave you behind if you don’t follow me” and i know Joyce doesn’t actually mean that but, ehhhh
Good to see them banting though, gives me hope
So wait. I’m really confused. Does Becky still believe in Hell, or does Joyce think that she still believes in Hell?
If she does believe in Hell, does she believe that that’s where Toedad/Blaine/other villains will end up? If so, then who gets to go to Heaven and how is that choice made? It’s obviously not whether they’ve chosen to accept Christ so he can absolve their sins since Dina gets to be in Heaven (unless Becky thinks she will eventually convert Dina?). It’s obviously either not whether someone has lead a sin-free life or she’s working from a different book than me (atheist with a very limited understanding) on what Christian sins are and aren’t.
I’m asking my (very limited atheist’s) understanding of Becky’s version of Heaven seems to be incompatible with Hell, and I just don’t understand where she’s coming from, and I want to understand her better, and it feels safer/less rude asking these awkward questions about a fictional character than a real person.
And how would that be judged? What does genuinely being a good person mean to Becky that she can be (well, at least she seems) 100% confident that her mother, Dina, and herself all are getting into prison?
The best thing about Christianity is you can choose to believe you’ll go to heaven until the day you die, and then once you die, even if heaven doesn’t exist, it’s not like you have to live with those regrets. You basically never have to be dissapointed, unless a necromancer brings you back.
And that’s where I draw the line, because by the nature of the thing there’s room for interpretation between the Biblical Christ, only person who lived without sin, and advocating genocide and finding (and I’m sorry to use this phrase) both sides to be acceptable.
This is my beef with religion. When the best Christian in the comic is Dorothy – the atheist who actually turns the other cheek, who isn’t boastful, who prays inside where people cannot see her (Dorothy casually telling Joyce she regularly sees a therapist when it’s become clear Joyce should see a professional), who Joyce assumed was a Christian by her open and caring nature (her works) – because the tenants are treated as so pliable that all of Jacob, Mary, Ross, and Sierra are equally sincere in their beliefs (as in, they really buy what they’re selling), something is wrong at a structural level.
And we’re all very familiar with trying to fix a structural problem through personal change.
I’d call her an atheist, because that’s what she is. She’s not actually following the teachings of Christ like believing in a very specific god, or claiming divorces don’t count, or…
(also, she’s not “following the actual teachings of Christ”. She’s doing what she thinks is right, and she’d still do them regardless of whatever Christ said. Christ is a non-factor)
Putting “Christian” in quotations when referring to Dorothy may have been a move, but that you’re more concerned about legal rigor than whether or not someone is emulating the literal messiah to whom all Christians should aspire is telling.
I grew up in a church not unlike DYW’s/Joyce’s. The only text in the entire Bible worth following is the stuff in red (it also tends to be less about religious rigor and more about treating your fellow man with equity and compassion, imagine that), and intentionally or not Dorothy follows it better than any other major character.
I don’t give a fuck about legal rigor. I give a BUNCH of fucks that you’re implying that being a good person is the same thing as being a christian, as if christianity has the monopoly on not being a shit.
As far as Dorothy is concerned, Jesus is not the messiah because messiahs aren’t a thing that exists, and what christians aspire to or not is of no influence on Dorothy because she isn’t one.
An excellent point. If you want to give Christianity the credit for Dorothy’s demeanor, you’d have to demonstrate a sound ideological pathway to Christianity itself. But that proves pretty difficult, as the pathway repeatedly splits into conflicting directions.
I didn’t read that as “Dorothy is literally a Christian whether she wants to be one or not” at all. I assumed the point was closer to “Hacky Sack Toby is a better footballer than his classmates, who all wear football gear but can’t tell the ball from a rock.” Does that make sense? Not nearly so literal.
I’m not entirely sure what you mean, but I think part of the problem is thinking that Jacob, Mary, Ross and Sierra all belong to the same religion. They’re all Christian and they’re all sincere in their beliefs, but they’re coming from very different churches with very different tenets. Ross at least wouldn’t recognize Jacob’s church as really Christian. Remember how much trouble Joyce had with it?
I’m also not really comfortable with calling Dorothy the best Christian. She’s not Christian and it’s awkwardly close to old usage of “Christian” to just mean “good”.
Joyce is 10 pounds of neuroses packed into a 5-pound bag. Becky didn’t blink at the service, she just preferred different aesthetics.
You also just described the problem and then said “That’s just how it is.” If parts of the immutable word of god can be muted depending on who’s reading it, then it’s not immutable.
That’s because “the immutable word of god” was made up by a bunch of different people living in different times, and then picked through by ANOTHER bunch of people in ANOTHER time for whatever they felt was convenient.
(also, “muted” is unrelated to “immutable” – the opposite of “immutable” is “mutable”, i.e., unchanging vs changing)
I imagine like 90% of that would be “don’t be a dick”. Be a good person, help others out, try to leave the world better than you found it, stuff like that. Pretty basic religious stuff, honestly.
You asked what Becky would think is required to get into heaven. I fully agree that none of that is unique to religion, or is in any sense religious in nature in the first place.
The point is just more that Becky’s viewpoint on Christianity is more about the broad concepts, not the specifics. If the Bible says being gay is bad, but you know being gay is totes fine? Then being gay should be good with Christianity and therefore God. Take from it what’s useful and comforting, and discard the rest.
It’s not the most stable of theological mindsets, but it’s a whole lot better than the version that Becky grew up in.
So I’ve been thinking on this a bit and I recall some of the dialog when she was talking to Toedad while he was dying seemed to imply Becky thought he was going to the same place as her mom (“tell mom I’m gonna be a while)
I think there’s 3 possibilities to explain this
1: she thinks everyone goes to heaven
2: she does think the traditional “only Christians get into heaven” and hopes to at one point convert Dina
3: like Joyce with Atheism she hasn’t actually given that much thought to what she believes
3 seems the most likely. Not out of apathy or anything, just her not really putting a huge amount of thought into it because how often does it really come up? People she loves go to heaven, because of course they would, if they went to hell that would mean that she’s wrong or God’s wrong and that’s crisis-of-faith territory right there.
So, yeah. Figure it’s a placeholder “good people go to heaven, bad people don’t”, without having thought much about defining any of those terms.
I had assumed it was possibility 1, but that kind of seems incompatible with the idea of Hell, which is where my confusion came from and why I posted the first comment to begin with. Thanks for the reference on where she thinks Toedad’s going.
I had previously ruled out 2 (because she doesn’t seem super interested in converting anyone, especially Dina). I hadn’t even considered 3, because it seemed to me she’s been religious in this way for her entire life, but I’d forgotten both that she’s still pretty much a teenager and also the title of the comic.
She may think of it in the way Gon from Hunter x Hunter sees morality. Gon is best friends with Killua because he was never taught the value of life, therefore Killua is not ‘evil’ for being an assassin or when he killed people in the past as he was never taught better and tries hard not to resort to it once he has a better understanding.
Meanwhile, the Phantom Troupe, who Gon initially didn’t mind as he presumed they were like Killua, revealed they understood killing is wrong and could have true empathy about it as they did know the value of life, but liked doing it anyway. Which made them bad people.
So if she uses logic like that, people like her Dad who had the core where he could have been like Joyce if he had a better upbringing or better understanding of how the stuff he did was messed up could be deemed as ‘Heaven worthy’ as God would be understanding that he had the true potential to be a ‘good’ person even if he wasn’t in how he actually acted all the time.
While Hell may be solely for people like Blaine whose upbringing and opportunities did not make him evil, but rather he chose to be and knew outright his actions were not good. He did not believe he was doing the right thing and did not care. And he showed no remorse for his actions.
It is also possible she hasn’t thought about it in depth or that she is entirely thinking of it in terms of what she would prefer i.e. she loves her dad as messed as he is so he goes to Heaven and Hell exists for people she hates. Which is not really an uncommon way to think about it either.
That “Jesus was there for me” line made me feel sad for all the people out there who really believe it. Love and loyalty for a story. For a figment of imagination.
Believing in something bigger and better than yourself is the only thing that keeps people alive in some situations. You can see a lot of Beckys in homeless shelters. Unless you’re personally going to be there for them instead, I wouldn’t suggest taking Jesus from them.
Almost exclusively Vegeta’s, even. Vegeta didn’t off Raditz when he had the chance, Goku wound up dead. Vegeta fucked around and let Cell power up, Goku wound up dead once more. Vegeta also died for his own sins against Buu, because he was just On One at the time
Damn, Joyce had an opportunity to bridge the gap there when Becky revealed her vulnerability. She could have gone for “just because theism isn’t my guiding light on the path anymore, doesn’t mean we can’t still walk down the path together” or something cool like that.
But that would require Joyce to think there is a path going somewhere rather than a single step to perfect material, intellectual and spiritual fulfillment labeled “Reject God”. I don’t think anything can happen here without Joyce trying to quiet down and learn about some nuances.
She’s not actually wrong though. She’s realised how much mental energy she had to spend chasing something imaginary. She shouldn’t need to pretend, nor would she want her friend to stay trapped in that.
“Comfortable” is overrated. AFAIK most people who claim to truly believe are play acting to some degree. People in general don’t really believe a lot of the silly stuff they claim to believe.
I don’t believe most of the stuff I claim to believe either but questioning those things makes me uncomfortable. If someone takes comfort in believing in a sky daddy looking out for them and that their loved ones aren’t just rotting corpses in the dirt, I don’t think it’s gonna…HELP them to lose that. If they want to find something else I’ll be more than willing to say what I believe but if they’re fine with their current setup I’m not gonna try to change that. Again, as long as they’re not using it against others.
I dont even think Joyce is 100% blameless here, but it’s honestly a little irritating seeing people twist everything trying to make Becky 100% blameless
Just in the last two strips Becky was mocking Joyce and saying everything about her was some potential lie, and then Joyce just ignored it so she could go “I know you have coping mechanisms!”
Nobody can ask Joyce what the hell motivated this.
I don’t think sex before marriage sent you to hell, I think it was a property offense in the bible, it lowered or destroyed a daughter’s value to sell her to another family. Also they had no idea how conception worked back then, so men thought if a woman had had sex with someone else years ago then a part of that man would still be in her and taint his heir. I would also site the punishment for rape, being a fine and forced marriage (which is really just another way to say “you broke it, you bought it”) as evidence that there isn’t an eternal punishment for premarital sex, since it’s treated as a simple property crime.
Don’t confuse any historical practices with the teachings of the church the Browns and McIntires attended that were probably written in the 1950s, with an emphasis on making children scared of sex, making women obedient, and making people loyal to the cult community.
I imagine his thoughts are on the order of “fucked if I know”. Joe’s… never been a particularly introspective character, but he hit a very uncomfortable point with things and he might not be fully at home with where things are.
Ask him before his evening encounter with Liz? I imagine his thoughts would just be on the order of “let people be”. Not out of a sense of nobility or morality or any shit like that, just as a matter of convenience, no sense getting involved with stuff that’s stable and doesn’t need fixing.
I know this comment section can be hard/frustrating. It is for me too. If disengaging from it altogether is what’s best for you, do that. I get that that sucks because this comic section can also be fun or enlightening, but if it’s wearing on you too much to get to that part, take care of yourself.
Also, you can limit who you engage with on here. Sometimes I wish we could block commentors like on a forum, but you can always try your best to just keep scrolling. In the past, I’ve asked someone on here not to interact with my posts, and it made it more tolerable than it had been. It’s something I’ll probably do again, honestly. Just to bring up that that is an option for you as well.
I appreciate your contributions to this comment section. If you do decide to take a break or stop commenting altogether, know that you’ve added value. Again, hope you take care of yourself. <3
Yeah, it can get really overwhelming for me sometimes too (especially with my neurodivergent stripes in the mix), but if I still feel like commenting, I try to start a conversation about something else.
Here, I’ll demonstrate right now (if Yumi doesn’t mind).
What was your favorite cartoon from the 90s and why?
That question is actually somewhat difficult to answer because a lot of the shows I like technically STARTED in the 90s but a majority of their run was in the 2000s. Ie. Ed Edd n Eddy, PPG, Courage the Cowardly dog, Spongebob etc. I watched Daria for the first time last year and really enjoyed it, so I think that’d be my answer. I can’t actually think of a lot more 90s cartoons off the top of my head.
I’m sorry you feeling like that.
This Joyce x Becky arc is very controversial, and still so close to each of us. Each page always reach above 300 comments.
If you want, take any time you need, but don’t forget come back, as you are so precious for everybody here.
You are both wrong about several things, you are both being shitty to each other, personal beliefs are very personal and not someone betraying anyone else, and, for god’s sake, why am I so invested in this?
Because it’s a very, very real situation that a lot of people have either gone through or could very easily see themselves going through. Guud writing.
How to read all 28 issues of my Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane run on Marvel Unlimited:
1: The first four issues were published as the miniseries "Mary Jane."
www.marvel.com/comics/serie...
today in #9chickweedlane i learned we have to be shown children learning and relearning what sex is, for Reasons, even though they already clearly know and have prepared nuanced questions about it!
also that Gran must hate, if she's still alive, how Old Juliette is the same but with gray hair
one of my favorite things is when a commenter explodes WHEN DO THESE CHARACTERS GET THERAPY but directed towards a character who canonically has a regular therapist
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btw if you're one of those rando bluesky weirdos who doesn't know me but sees me in the wild being sarcastic and don't know i'm being sarcastic because you haven't taken like 30 seconds to, like, maybe look at my user profile or something, keep walking, you're not going to score internet points here
Here's an entertaining cite at the bottom of the first page
Josh Gerstein@joshgerstein.bsky.social ⋅ 2d
JUST IN: Milwaukee Judge Hannah Dugan moves to dismiss federal criminal case against her for allegedly helping immigrant hide from ICE. Her lawyers say she's protected by official acts & judicial immunity and 10th Amendment. Doc: storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.us...
Where did Hollywood go so wrong? I thought movies were supposed to be an escape from reality, a chance to put your worries aside and not have to think about any underlying ideas or concepts. Well, not anymore.
theonion.com/you-can...
It's not a new argument, of course, but Chesterton dismissed it effectively in 1908.
"You will hear everlastingly... this argument that the rich man cannot be bribed. The fact is, of course, that the rich man is bribed; he has been bribed already. That is why he is a rich man."
Aaron Rupar@atrupar.com ⋅ 2d
Hawley dismisses Trump lining his pockets with his memecoin: "Listen, I think nobody believes that Donald Trump can be bought. I mean, what does Donald Trump need more money for?"
wilbur, savvy enough to know he's in a comic strip but still not a great actor, awkwardly lifts a muffin up into frame so that we, the audience, understand that he has a muffin right now, which is very important narratively, but he's not really selling it well as an organic, human action
preternia @preternia.com ⋅ 1d
Josh Gerstein @joshgerstein.bsky.social ⋅ 2d
Aaron Rupar @atrupar.com ⋅ 2d
Pavel
@spavel.bsky.social ⋅ 11d
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OH NO I SAID ADULT
next comes “mature” and “responsible” and “taxes”
All of which fit *ahem* under *cough* the umbrella term, “adulting.” sha-wing!
Time is 23:57 yesterday
“Oh no – I said adult!” quickly becomes
“Oh no – i *am* an adult!” xD
One of my favourite ever C&H strips!
Interesting that C&H means Calvin and Hobbes to you… not Cyanide & Happiness, as I was expecting.
Joyce: Join the dark side, we have cookies.
Becky: I don’t appreciate you using “cookies” as a euphemism for my girlfriend.
Joyce: A whatnow? (pulls out plate of snickerdoodles)
Snickerdoodles is a much better euphemism for a girlfriend.
Ah, a sign that maybe this Joyce evolution won’t be ALL so bad.
I’d LOVE seeing her as a demonic temptress
And maybe battle Mary with her newfound powers Demon Slayer style!
Wishful thinking, I know.
So, Joyce as Devil Homura? Neat.
I’d also accept just plain temptress. Ms. Billingsworth’s conjuring Sarah’s reservations still keens at me with it’s siren song.
now I’m imagining her as a succubus like Larisa Korolev in Sandra and Woo… my brain does not know how to process this
I can’t quite imagine that working out well. That’s a total 180 for Joyce, and the last panel suggests she’s going to be having some serious trouble keeping that up. For Larisa, signing up to become a succubus was more like a gifted amateur signing up to go professional.
oh my, I had nearly forgotten about Sandra and Woo. I loved that strip. How long ago did it end?
End? There was a new strip yesterday.
Joyce would be apologizing as she lights you on fire.
@Yotomo
Oh.
Oh no.
This… is this how Willis is working in Anti-Joyce? As Joyce’s atheist persona?
Except in this comic the Anti-‘Joyce completely replaces Joyce.
I blame the absence of Mike.
“Ah yes, Ben Folds Five, my muse”
Still no F-word.
*shrugs* Cafeteria?
I love the schedule time warp going on. I saw this at 11:55.
I hope they can get through this without yelling
Honestly, this is giving me a lot of hope… but I’m fully prepared to eat those words.
Same. Joyce has started to say some of what made her not believe in “the sky wizard” which should help communicate with Becky. They don’t really get what the important parts are for each other.
In my experience it really does not help in any way against christian fundies.
Has she really started to say that though?
All we get here is “you can have sex because there’s no hell”. Which is close to the Christian parody of atheism they were taught: Without fear of punishment atheists have no morals.
And it’s still framed in an attempt to get Becky to deconvert rather than an attempt to communicate and accept each other – to reassure Becky that even though Joyce isn’t Christian, Becky isn’t losing her.
“deconvert”
nice word, we haven’t got it in my language.
(well for agricultural needs it is used somehow, but as a forced translation from english mainly, and it isn’t attested in serious dictionaries – as well a “debelieve/unbelieve” (prefix doesnt work the same way) which is used to express reverse brainwash from authoritarian regimes)
Closest we got would be
apostatize
defrock (for clergy, monks and nuns only; but used by analogy – rarely)
Agreed. There’s no, “I will care about and accept you no matter what you believe.” It’s just, “You are free to believe what I believe and give up your own faith, the bedrock of your sense of personal identity and self conception, if you don’t want to be left behind.”
From either side.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure they’re going to get past that, but it’s going to be a struggle.
Right? People are praising Joyce for this, and I just want to face palm.
Dorothy said it to your face, Joyce, Moral Superiority doesn’t default to you.
Well this is going great. Dammit Joyce…
It’s okay, Joyce. I too am a super adult.
When “hanky-panky” was used in “Luann” the other day, I immediately thought of Joyce.
Also, while I was typing this, I thought about how her dad’s name is Hank, which I guess is like if someone was named Fu– not really weird, but depending on the last name…
I wish Hank’s last name was Pank.
I’m gonna open a restaurant and name it Pho King. It’s gonna serve Mexican food and the theme is gonna be French disco.
Whenever I go to say “pho” aloud, I panic and get stuck between an attempt at an authentic pronunciation and going with the bastardized pronunciation that I first learned, and it comes out as a weird neither-sound that may be incomprehensible were I not ordering at a restaurant where pho is, like, the main thing.
Anyway.
I’ve only heard it pronounced “fuh”, by a Taiwanese content person.
Try Norfolk, a town in CT, & city in VA, and other places.
Locals skip the r and l.
Austin has a Pho King, right by one of the Dell campuses. (not Mexican food)
This place totally exists in AZ
Err, Pho King, not the Mexican food and disco part lol
We have one in Houston as well, but Florida takes it up a notch.
https://www.phokingnoodlebar.com/
Of course none of these places -actually- doubles as a brothel…
it never IS what it’s named
What is french disco?
I mean I’m french, I don’t know if this is a specific american term. I only learnt what were french fries or french press in my late twenty.
Disco music and the subculture around it, originating in France.
I’m not sure people’s ‘Joyce seduces Becky’ fanfics to turn out like this.
Sex!
Blushes to the side, Joyce has obviously given this atheism means premarital sex is okay thing some thought.
Y’know, Joyce, there’s plenty of Jesuses out there that don’t threaten hell for premarital sex.
Just sayin’
Of course, the fun thing is that part of fundie cultism is that it trains you to see those as heresies.
Okay but there are actual currently existing human beings named Jesus. I’m HOPING they won’t all threaten to send you to hell for premarital sex. XD
Be a lot funnier if they did
“Hey man, you know what I said about having sex before you’re married”
“I don’t even know you. Why do you care so much!?”
“I’m just saying, you should put a ring on that first.”
Remember how Joyce responded to the Presbyterian church? Sometimes, it’s easier to accept a big change than a small one.
Also sausages.
Would Joyce dare to order a jesus pizza. Maybe with jesus picked off?
I’m just imagining a group of Jesus’ walking around all saying slightly different stuff/looking slightly different. Into the Christverse.
One is randomly an alligator.
This is my only begatored son in whom I am well pleased.
He croco-die-led for our fins.
THIS is the high-brow content I come to the comment section for. Carry on.
Follow him and you will be gharial-teed eternal life.
I think we can agree Nova came to the right place.
If what they came for was crocodilian-themed puns then they caiman-tirely to the right place
i have been refreshing this page surreptiletiously but it seems i am now alone in caring for croc-related quips ;_;
i thought i might not be alone in having sweet tooth for them.
…but maybe other replies have been crushed by the maw of the lurking spambot.
Have i not awakened your mighty wrath yet o Spambot?
Of course you strike at unsuspecting victims only. One has a reputation to maintain. It wouldn’t be Sobek-oming of you to gnash at a blatant taunt.
Like the crocodilians, this pun chain has reached its peak and no longer needs to change much.
look i’m really busy sipping sports drinks for some reason but listen, i have thoughts regarding that statement you made about crocodilians…. but let’s not go down that alley. Gatorade-drinking is more fun and i will stick to that for now.
One is definitely just Aslon.
Is it Pat the Alligator?
Iunderstoodthatreference dot gif
So you might want to check the last episode of the first season of American Gods…
Watch American Gods. One scene has a small army of Jesuses, all with their own worshipers.
For sure Sierra and her polyamory pals have at least one of those Jesuses, just sayin’
Speaking of which, when’s the last time we saw her anyway?
She and Agatha wished Ruth a happy birthday, then Mary got HOMPK-ed. Before that, she made an appearance at the first dorm meeting after winter break.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/tag/sierra/
I’m sure she’ll be in at least one bonus strip, because HoW dOeS sOmEoNe WiThOuT sHoEs DeAl WiTh WiNtEr?!?!?one
(Okay the sarcasm text was probably a little much, sorry… It’s been asked a few times though. The cold isn’t that bad unless you hit a salty puddle or you’re trudging across the tundra or something, and dry pavement in the sun is fine.)
It’s alright. I just hope she’s OK >0<
I haven’t tested this, but that still seems like it’d be a bad idea for any rough winter weather.
Not if all the nerves in your feet died years ago.
Alternatively, this is a super power and Sierra was the only abductee before this universe’s Head Alien was killed off by all the disease bacteria he wasn’t prepared for.
This universe’s HA was an antivaxxer?
This has been covered
I’m too lazy to look up where tho, since I don’t think I’m logged into Patreon on this phone and can’t be buggered to remember my own
But is choosing which God you believe in based on which one shares your opinion intellectually honest?
What if you believe in a loving god because that sounds nice, but die and find out that’s not the case and you’re still going to hell?
Regardless of whether or not an afterlife or god(s) exist, this is kind of at the heart of why I’m highly skeptical about the idea of religious belief having some intrinsic moral value.
This kind of imagined love that can be found anywhere is not just a resource to comfort the meek — it’s a resource for anyone, including bullies, corrupt politicians, adulterers, manipulators, etc., who can and do use it to justify the idea that the gods are on THEIR side.
That’s why I said I find fundies less annoying. They’re wrong, but they are following something concrete.
Once you start making it up as you go along based on “Love and Faith” (or whatever you value) you unmoor yourself from any evaluation or critical analysis. You’re just giving your own existing worldview the weight of a god behind it.
Okay, it’s tempting to think that’s how this works… if you take everything that fundies believe as on-its-face correct that it’s what the Bible actually says.
In actuality, fundamentalism is EXTREMELY inconsistent with itself. Like, for instance, there’s not actually a lot of evidence, from a Biblical perspective, that there is even a hell. Like, seriously, read up on it, all of the references to it are actually references to other things entirely, such as Sheol (a Jewish underworld, not great but not a place of punishment, and everyone goes there), the Greek god Hades (not even the Greek underworld, but literally just the god of it), a garbage pile, etc. But because some groups of translators decided that THEY believed in Hell, they read THEIR belief into these disparate passages referring to lots of different things and made up Hell out of kind of whole cloth. So just… keep an open mind when someone says that they’re a Christian but they don’t believe in eternal punishment, it’s more supported than you’d think.
Hell, there are even ancient (admittedly non-canonical) books of the Bible, such as the Apocalypse of Peter, that deals with whether or not there is one, an in that aforementioned book, Jesus tells Peter that it exists, but it’s empty; nobody actually gets sent there. Now, I haven’t read it myself, and the wording is vague enough that he might be saygin something else, but that was generally how church fathers interpreted it, when it ALMOST made it into the recommended books (which later on became declared the canon, but at the time was more a recommended reading list of books that they didn’t think taught any heresies, and were easy to come by) back when they were deciding that.
What if?
Then you still lived a life based on love. Would it not be even more intellectually dishonest to worship a God who did not share your values just because of fear of punishment?
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” — Marcus Aurelius
That’s great if you’re a super nice person who has no personal biases. Most people are not that.
I was kinda hoping they could actually start talking to each other instead of past each other, but I guess we get jokes instead.
Why frame it as “instead”, when none of these rough conversations have ever been zero-sum or substitutional? Is that a word? I’m calling it a word. Sometimes friends joke with each other during serious conversations.
But they’re still talking past each other.
Eh. Not my problem.
Is that a hint of a Wyatt smile I see on Becky?
Psst can someone clarify to me if Becky’s face in the third-to-last panel is mischievous or is it angry?
Heck if I know.
I’m reading mischievous. They’re bantering like they’re used to, just with a different topic. It’s a good step imo.
I also have this question.
I think Becky also has this question.
It looks to me like she’s trying to suppress a smirk so amused but doesn’t want to let Joyce know
You definitely don’t want to get Left Behind. Terrible, terrible books.
There’s a Christian blogger called Slacktivist that tears them apart, chapter by chapter. It’s been years since I kept up, though.
Unfortunately, I think the series has been put to rest for several years.
Is this on the Patheos website? It’s great stuff and I think the same writer also takes apart Atlassian Shrugged.
I used to read his blog posts criticizing those books, and other stuff he posted on his blog too, but I’m pretty sure he hasn’t made a new post about the Left Behind series in years.
$50 (in like 6 months, capitalism is fun) to the artist who can get me Super Saiyan Joyce in Vegeta’s Cell Saga Saiyan armor.
“I… am Super Adult Joyce!” *gets ragdoll’d by Perfect Dina*
Would that be one picture or a two-picture strip?
Still awaiting clarification. Otherwise Imma just start laying down the pixels.
Just Super Saiyan Joyce.
Man I’m tempted but I hate drawing Saiyan armor.
Joyce has now reached the point of being fine with premarital lesbian sex with your girlfriend.
Give Joyce three more weeks and:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuNQ4b5WQAEnYma.jpg
*art by Willis*
Where did he post this?? I’ve never seen this and I’m glad I’ve seen it now.
Thanks for sharing I never saw this. Despite it looking exactly like something I’d have drawn.
I figured you’d like it Yoto, this is one of my requests for the Makeout tier on the Kickstarter.
It was worth every penny.
YOU MADE THIS?
I beg of you Sensei, please teach me your divine Photoshop skills
No, Willis made it, like they said. They requested it as part of what they got for pledging a certain amount on Kickstarter.
Ah, so it is. Still sweet and totally worth $300+ IMO
I think that means you owe Mewzer $300.
Mewzard.
And not Mewzer, Menard or Mermaid.
That makeout tier is an excellent incentive and more people should include them in their crowdfunding. How often do you get legally official art of your favorite characters totally smoochin’ it up?
But think of all the disappointed people when they find out the makeout tier doesn’t mean they get to smooch it up with their favorite cartoonist.
That one costs extra. A lot extra.
I believe that tier’s a Maggie exclusive.
That’s because nobody else has been Batman: The Brave and the Bold enough to try joining that tier, so far.
Also I said that before I remembered I DID draw something like this.
Y’know, except with Becky in the middle…and lipstick marks cuz that’s a thing I’m into.
https://i.imgur.com/aX0NyXV.png
The lipstick? You can make it your trademark. Very effective!
I’ve scanned Willis’ Twitter EVERY SINGLE DAY this year and this doesn’t seem like anything I would miss.
If he did actually make it, looks fantastic, and Yoto, it must be an honor.
But if it turns out he DIDN’T make it, I really wanna know who did, because they must be a Super Photoshop GOD 🤯
I’m sorry, if Joyce has a threesome it’ll clearly be with Joe and Dorothy.
Or maybe
Billieand Sal. Some combination thereof.I’m trying to figure out why you’re sorry about that.
I certainly hope so.
Joyce: why yes I am no longer babby
[is still totally babby]
There’s actually a lot of non-hell reasons why people don’t have sex, actually. I’ve never feared hell and good ol’ yoto’s a virgin.
Eh, mostly because they’ve yet to find partners. Or at least that’s the case with me :/
Pregnancy and STI avoidance are good reasons as well. However unless Dina is a trans girl, pregnancy is irrelevant to these two. I do hope someone has given them information about STIs, though. There’s a good arc in Girls With Slingshots about lesbian protection.
Ah restless leg syndrome.
Same here.
Could also be in the grey area of the Ace umbrella. Find people attractive as an idea but not enough to settle for anything less than exactly what they want because they don’t care that much.
Hello there.
Okay so my reaction to the first panel is “oh god why, Joyce fucking Why?” I mean as a reader I’m thrilled because I want romance, drama, bloodshed! ~ Mettaton 2015 I want this feud to go on continually and be more than a one-story blip. But as a fellow atheist I’m like “Joyce that was, with surgical precision, the *worst* thing you could have said there.”
This actually hurt to read, and I loved every second of it.
(And okay the last panel wrapped it back to being hilarious, Smug!Joyce is just as good as Classic!Joyce with them.)
Yeah, I’m glad this seems to still be an unfolding disaster. Making up now would just leave too many opportunities for Drama.
Yeah that.
I would be crushed if this was repaired by the end of this storyline.
I dont think it should be resolved until the end of the current book at the earliest
I want it go at least long enough that we can see who Becky is without her friendship with Joyce– it’s just too interesting of a character angle for her to ignore.
A person has to free themselves, Joyce. And she should know that appeal isn’t what makes a person realize there’s no gods. She just went through that. Still believing the stereotypes TT
I still hate this because this isn’t a “hey it’s ok if you believe what you believe and it’s ok if I believe what I believe.” Joyce is still trying to convert Becky and I simply don’t like it. At the very least there’s a way to have this conversation that doesn’t sound smarmy and self-satisfied.
Becky is trying to convert Joyce as well though. So it’s mutual assholery. I wonder if Dorothy is aware that Becky is digging her heels in on needing Joyce to be her “bestie in Christ” considering Dorothy insisted Joyce apologize. (Joyce did still owe an apology – but not for being atheist)
Becky made one comment about it two strips ago. Clearly it’s something that troubles Becky, but it’s not mutual assholery, it’s a massive fuckton on one end and a light counterpunch on the other.
Becky is trying to do the same thing, sad really.
Got any maybe-relevant tasty jokes tonight?
yeah, they are both being kind of shitty right now (and have been so for a while). But they are talking so I guess that is a plus. The only question left is if they can respect each others believes-
This feels nice, for the most part. They’re bantering by the end.
Maybe. If it were two Joyces I’d buy that, but Becky’s *coping mechanism* is banter.
This is a good start for both of them.
Joyce do you even know what any of that means
No. I hate this. “You don’t have to get left behind if you just renounce your faith and EVOLVE like me”
I enjoy it… because it’s a dumpster fire! It really shows how far these two have to go before they can understand where their friend’s coming from
I mean Becky is doing the SAME THING… They are both trying to convice each other that their way is the only true way.
You know who I feel bad for in this moment?
Becky’s other tables. They just want their pizza, man.
They’re probably used to shenanigans at Galasso’s Pizza (And Subs), sorta like that one restaurant where they throw rolls at your head or any dine-in fast food place.
Eh, I think most of the employees are pretty reliable. It’s really just Galasso and Sydney you gotta watch out for.
I’m not even sure how many of those there are. The food wait is mostly the cooking, and there’s likely only one person at most after Joyce assigned to Becky. None, if Glasso is aware enough to see this convo coming.
Really this exchange hasn’t taken super long so far. I’ve been in diners with family that have casally chatted with waiters/waitresses for much longer.
Yes, it was a joke.
What is this “jo-ke” of which you speak?
And they’ve been waiting for days.
What do you mean, it’s been a few seconds?
Fuck em, they can wait
Joyce only blushing after said she is super adult now? Hope she figured out how asshole she is…
Well, at least this conversation started out well. Joyce really can’t do anything in a manner that isn’t just as in-your-face as Becky is known for, can she? As obnoxious as Becky can be, she is never unpleasant about it like Joyce absolutely can be.
Wonder why that is? Is Becky that much better at being sly with such contempt, or is it more like the paradoxical “Cool clothes make you popular, cloths are cool if you’re popular”?
I think its just more that there’s almost never any contempt in Becky’s words, at least when she’s being obnoxious. It’s so clearly a show most of the time that, while still annoying and frustrating and obnoxious, isn’t actively malicious.
“There’s almost never any contempt in Becky’s words.”
Dorothy might disagree with you.
I think that, if Dorothy ever felt any real contempt from Becky, she would call her out on it.
Don’t get me wrong, if I were in Dorothy’s place I would’ve torn Becky’s throat out by now, girl has the patience of a fucking supercomputer for sticking through it all. But it’s never been malicious, it’s never been hateful, it’s just been Becky’s way of trying to secure dominance and relative importance with Joyce.
Let’s be simple about it: Dorothy would, in no way, have agreed to be Becky’s roommate if she felt Becky was being malicious towards her. She can take the obnoxiousness apparently, but if there was actual vitriol behind the words, she would’ve said no.
I don’t think they get a choice about who their roommates are, really; iirc they’re assigned.
Either way, Dorothy is absolutely the kind of person who would try to build bridges, especially with someone close to Joyce. There’s no benefit to calling Becky on anything, you’ll just lose by collateral damage. And I suspect you’re right that the verbal cruelty is Becky asserting dominance.
But if we’re being blunt, here’s more of it: Becky wants Dorothy to feel lesser and small. That’s dominance. Becky wants Dorothy to flinch. That Dorothy hasn’t given it to her is laudable, that Dorothy can tolerate it is miraculous. That does not render Becky’s behavior okay in any way, does not mean she’s not being mean, and does not mean she should get a pass.
She gets a pass because she always does, and that’s not okay either.
Well, she gets a pass because she’s only terrible at two people who constantly capitulate to her.
If she kept on annoying Ruth and Jennifer they’d probably talk back.
We’ve seen her manipulate Ruth and Jennifer. Both Leslie and Robin as well. She adjusts herself to the person. Not so much interaction between Becky and Mike, which would have been interesting.
I mean, she hasn’t done to Leslie and Robin what she does to her friends.
More specifically to Leslie, she’s also someone who can’t criticize Becky in the slightest, so it’s not surprising she’d go “oh, you devious little stinker, you!” when Becky openly annoyed Ruth and Jennifer in class by bouncing up and down screaming about their love life.
Ah, yes, Exhibit number “I’ve lost count” of why Leslie should not, in fact, be a teacher.
Though, to be fair, the only teachers for whom there’s even a chance that they are good at their jobs are Alex 2 and Vivian.
Hey, I’ve taught college classes. It’s not like the standards are that high.
The rest of the faculty certainly seems to support your assertion.
This conversation started with Becky ripping on Joyce. That’s contemptuous.
Oh yes. Becky’s never unpleasant. Not when she’s kicking people out of Joyce’s life. Not when she’s relentlessly and viciously bullying Dorothy for daring to be friends with Joyce. Not when she’s leeeeeaning on whatever of Joyce’s neuroses she can find to send Joyce into brief Catalonia because the face she makes us just hilarious.
Yup. Becky’s never ever been unpleasant. Not once.
Sure.
right, that’s just Becky being Becky. Wacky
passive-aggressiveBecky.Becky can absolutely match Joyce in unpleasantness at times.
Joyce, Becky, nobody is leaving anyone behind, Joyce is leaving Christianity behind, she’s still Joyce, she’ll still put her life on the line to help Becky
At least they’re being civil here, so that’s progress
Of course Joyce isn’t leaving Becky behind. She wants to bring her along. And Becky wants her to stay.
Neither of them seem to have even considered the possibility that they can stay friends while not sharing the same beliefs. (Or lack thereof.)
Joyce would die for her.
Or you can just be friends. Like Joyce and Dorothy, when Joyce was still super fundie.
You have to remember though, that Becky’s reaction to finding out that Joyce was hiding Dorothy from her because Dorothy’s an atheist was “Well, that’s just nuts. Even I’m only into cooters.” And while it reads as a joke, on reflection it seems that… maybe it wasn’t really?
(https://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/forever/)
It pretty obviously was a joke about a sincerely held opinion.
Yeah, it’s obvious that Becky has more of a problem with that than Joyce, but what I’m saying is, Joyce should know that that works.
Dorothy didn’t grow up in an environment where The Outsiders were strange and frightening.
There’s a difference between Joyce meeting Dorothy as an atheist (or more specifically, meeting Dorothy and assuming she was also a Christian, whereupon she is utterly flabbergasted to discover the truth) and Joyce and Becky disagreeing on something that’s defined their entire lives.
This conflict is great cause even at their most reasonable Becky can’t accept Joyce being an atheist and Joyce can’t accept Becky being a Christian. Like even without the shouting and smug satisfied smiles they’re still struggling with the fact that the closest people to you can disagree on beliefs. Love an arc about how Joyce and Becky haven’t moved past the absolute elements of their upbringing
it’s not great to me, but then, I’m basically Dorothy
At least there’s gags about Joyce saying sex?
I’ve been an avowed agnostic for effectively all of my life, but really only nailed down what that meant for me personally when I was in college and started really thinking about it (turns out, going to a college with very active pro-Israel and pro-Muslim student organizations creates *drama*, and I think that’s more the “Student Organization” part than anything).
And, in my decade plus since then? While I’ve had many discussions of faith and belief and such with those who are Christians and such, you know what I’ve never done?
Try to fucking convert them.
This shit is what’s pissing me off with Joyce right now, trying to convert someone who is happy and comfortable with their faith. Becky isn’t struggling with what it means to be Christian, she isn’t having difficulty reconciling her faith with her being a lesbian, she isn’t using her faith to lash out at others (well, aside from one comment two strips ago which was a dick move, but also might’ve been a last-panel-joke-setup thing).
And still Joyce looks at her and goes “I MUST SAVE HER FROM HER EVIL AND WICKED FAITH”. And fuck her in particular for using Dina as an example here, someone who’s never judged Becky for being Christian (not when there were so many scientific inaccuracies to tear away from her first).
Seriously, this is the kinda shit you’d expect to see from a fucking Chick Tract talking about the seductive evil of Atheists. Also probably why Joyce is doing it, it’s how she imagines Atheists act…
Eh I’m not surprised, Joyce’s old church was all about converting people, so she’s just doing what she knows with a uno reverse card
Not lash out, but… Joyce is used to passive agressive conversion bullshit. ANYTHING Becky has said in favor of religion in the past few months will have been grating at her.
And yes, Becky is perfectly entitled to be hurt after overhearing Joyce implicitly call her stupid. But she’s also bringing to bear (and has for a while, ever since Joyce started doubting and she didn’t) a whole lotta “How dare you doubt?”
Yeah, it’s amazing to me how like 48% of these threads seem to be people who are outraged that everyone thinks Joyce is an awful dick and is woobifying Becky, then 48% are outraged that Becky is being an awful dick and we’re woobifying Joyce…like, they are, and have been, reasonably awful and immature at all points in this in several ways. It’s their reasonable immaturity which does that.
…I honestly haven’t seen a lot of “how dare you doubt” from Becky, exactly.
Oh, there’s certainly some there. Becky’s clearly hurt by Joyce not being Christian anymore, and that’s some shit that she’s going to need to get sorted, and it doesn’t reflect well on her.
But the view I’ve been taking is just that, at least lately, Becky is hurt but largely in a place where she’d be able to move on if given the chance… and Joyce is not letting her by constantly forcing these arguments. This isn’t a situation where Joyce is an Atheist and Becky is struggling to cope with that, because while that might be true, it’s missing out on what’s going on with Joyce.
This is a situation where Newly-Openly-Atheist-Joyce is practically going “If you want to still be friends with me, you need to stop being Christian” to Becky. Joyce is demanding conversion from someone happy with their faith.
Also… lets be blunt about something. If Becky really, truly wanted Joyce to be Christian again in a way similar to how Joyce wants Becky to not be Christian… all Becky has to do is call Joyce’s mother. It’d be an abso-fucking-lutely terrible thing to do, obviously, but it’d be a low-effort thing to do. And Becky hasn’t even so much as come close to implying that she’d ever do that.
“all Becky has to do is call Joyce’s mother”
I have no idea what you think that would accomplish.
“All Becky would have to do is call Joyce’s mother”
What a fantastic way for Becky to irreparably shatter her friendship with Joyce
Yes, which is why Becky isn’t doing it.
My point is just more that, if Becky were the awful person that the comments seem to be implying she are a lot of the time, that is something she’d at least consider. She wants Joyce to be safe and happy and secure. Christian as well would be nice, but it’s not at all close to those other things in terms of Becky’s priorities, just as “willing to be kissy with Becky” is.
Why would she ever consider it considering that would 1: put Becky in danger because Joyce’s mom 10000% sided with toedad and thus would possibly try to force Becky into a reformation camp and 2: would only cause Joyce to doube down harder out of all the anger she has at her mom right now..
How would calling Carol get Joyce to be christian again? How would it benefit Becky in any way?
It’d be an awful thing to do but it’d also be a stupid thing to do, and while Becky is neither, I do want to stress that a person not doing or even considering a catastrophically stupid thing is a poor judge of morality.
I too rate friendships on not doing the most deliberately horrible thing possible.
A deliberately horrible thing that would hurt yourself as much or more than the target and would accomplish the opposite of the desired result, at that
Honestly I suspect it would put Joyce in more danger, remember Carol wants to pull her out of college (and I suspect the last time we saw her she was going to attempt just that before getting suplexed by Ruth)
Remember “I would die for you”
I know Atheism and being LGBT aren’t at all comparable but do you think Carol will be willing to make that distinction
I have never once mailed Spencer the mutilated body parts of his loved ones. It’s why we’re Besties.
@Clif: Then how do you show you care? O_o
@alongcameaspider: but now Carol would have to fight Hank over it.
In that case Joyce is a great friend as she doesnt toss bunnies into woodchippers !
I haven’t seen anyone imply Becky is an awful person though
Not a great friend to Joyce sure but that doesn’t make her terrible, it just makes her a teenager
She still hasn’t paid Joyce the $20. from Jennifer she spent on her hair.
Oh yeah, we can’t forget the life-changing, transformative $20 bill that was somehow gonna work some sort of miracle if the comments were to be believed.
Definitely one of my favorite things in this entire webcomic. What seemed like a bit of frivolity that sparked endless harangues among the commentariat and was then completely recontextualized a year later with Toedad’s “Your hair is your womanhood” nonsense.
And honestly? The language Becky has been using? “Over-reacting”?
I can see it happening.
Yeah, I can’t see calling Carol even crossing Becky’s mind. There’s nothing to gain there, no matter how nasty you think Becky is.
Calling Hank however is a possible card to play. Not nearly as horrific, much more supportive of Becky and still likely to be bothered by Joyce’s loss of faith and possibly able to apply pressure to her in a way that Carol really can’t.
“much more supportive of Becky”
Excuse me?
Hank is definitely way more supportive of Becky than Carol would be, is I think how that should be read (as opposed to ‘more supportive of Becky than Joyce,’ which, yeah, he clearly loves Becky and recognizes she’s family now but does so because JOYCE said ‘nope, she is my sister now because her dad is trash.’ Which is probably a factor in Becky’s insecurities too – her safety net is almost entirely through Joyce, and she doesn’t trust Leslie or Robin to be permanent and reliable backup. Doesn’t excuse her clinginess, of course, but there’s a lot wrapped up in it including some genuine concerns.)
Okay I see where I misread things.
I thought thejeff was saying Becky tattling on Joyce to Hank would be “more supportive” of Becky, since it followed why Becky wouldn’t call Carol and then that he could “apply pressure.”
Becky calling Joyce’s family (unless she has a separate, regular line of contact with Jocelyne and was trying to process things, maybe) would be shitty regardless. I’m hoping Becky, having lived through everything with Ross, would avoid doing that because she doesn’t think parents need to get involved and potentially take… y’know, drastic measures. But I’d expect she also hasn’t yet because she thinks Joyce being an atheist is ‘overreacting’ so she wants to ‘fix’ this. So I’d hope not, but nonetheless, I could see Becky kind of wanting to fix this IF she trusts Hank enough to pressure Joyce without jumping to pulling her out of college. I expect not, especially since it would almost certainly be a friendship-ender after last semester and they WILL make up eventually, but possible.
Agreed. I don’t think she’d call Hank, but it’s at least possible.
Calling Carol isn’t even conceivable.
Yep. Call Carol, Joyce is DEFINITELY getting kidnapped and maybe also Becky is too. Either way, there is no coming back from that friendshipwise and Becky would know that.
Call Hank? There’s a chance he doesn’t completely freak the fuck out. I wouldn’t expect Becky to trust him enough not to after everything with her dad, but it’s possible.
Jocelyne is on the whole fairly safe but I don’t think Becky would call her unless they are in semi-regular contact independent of Joyce. Generally, I think (hope) Becky’s aware enough bringing one of Joyce’s family members into this all would escalate things to try and avoid doing so. Jocelyne would escalate the least, but I don’t think she has significantly more rapport with Joyce than Becky for it to seem worthwhile in Becky’s eyes unless she was trying to process her own feelings with the adoptive older sibling who had her back and helped her break into her own house to get her birth certificate.
Yeah, evangelical atheists (as I like to call them) are every bit as annoying as over-zealous proselytizers for any other faith. I may disagree with others’ beliefs, but I’m not going to try and change those beliefs. Of course, if they insist on trying to convert me, I’ll cheerfully rip their arguments to shreds. And since fundies tend to do a lot of cherry-picking with their interpretation of the Bible, there’s a good chance I actually know more about it than they do.
Man, so many people are shit-talking Joyce for being realistically immature, and I’m just over here like “YAY THEY’RE TALKING!!! :-D”
Yup!
I take that last panel as Joyce realizing she’s not quite as worldly and mature as she thought she was. Becky’s bemused smirk is a positive development, too. (Especially after Joyce cracked her mask yesterday.)
Like I said the other day, the least they can do is stop making the rift in their friendship worse.
Yeah, like, people are mad at Becky for not giving Joyce what she needs, I ask, how should Becky know what Joyce needs? Communicating something more nuanced than “Renounce your foolish invisible sky wizard or else” seems like a start.
And certaingly, Becky’s own needs are more obvious, but she needs to communicate if she feels abandoned because they don’t believe the same things or because she’s simply not used to how Joyce is acting.
Becky, sweetie, what did Jesus ever do for you?
Conveniently only the good stuff!
…. well played.
Sent a super-hero to save her from her dad.
Sent Joyce to keep her sane growing up in a hateful cult
Good to know both Amber and Joyce had to suffer tremendiously so that God could stick them there for Becky
Man is born to suffer as the sparks fly upwards.
Cause, you know. Sparks are always Sciencing and doing stuff like that.
This argument always bothers me because it takes agency away from people
Amazigirl didn’t choose to save her Jesus made her
Joyce didn’t choose to help Becky rather then turn her over to her dad, that was Jesus
Becky’s line to Dina “You are proof God exists” springs to mind. . .
You might as well ask what the universe has done for her. Try to prove the universe doesn’t exist, prove things would exist without it. As long as there are things, don’t those things existing prove the existence of a universe in which things exist, rather than don’t exist?
You’re arguing semantics, Becky might say. Jesus is her name for the universe.
There is a very big difference between “The universe exists” and “The universe has a sentient will and loves me specifically and has set things in motion to give me good things (at the cost of most of my friends being put through severely traumatic events, which was just a necessary part of the universe’s plan to give me good things for some reason)”.. That’s not just semantics..
Yes, that would be a big difference.
I dunno, I doubt Jesus was there for Becky, he certainly wasn’t there when Joyce’s church bailed him out for attempted kidnapping and (technically speaking) shooting up a school. he was also not there for her when a dude fucking kidnapped her friends because some dude was salty about child support, together with her father.
personally this is a pointless argument cuz no one HAS to be left behind, but if we’re looking a stuff from this kind of lens than, yknow, Jesus took the wheel and he crashed the car into a grandma and then an orphanage
*bailed her dad out
I think the point is that her believe in Jesus gave her emotional strength in these times. Which is something we can’t really argue against.
As long as she is not a dick about it and her faith makes her feel content trying to deconvert her is as shitty as her trying to convert someone else.
So both they are both kind of shitty here.
“Jesus take the wheel” as a saying has never made much sense to me. If Jesus existed, he would’ve lived in a time long before cars were invented, so why would he know how to drive one?
Jesus take the wheel
Divine inspiration.
The concept of Jesus in her corner was an emotional crutch for her to hold onto that gave her the fortitude to take what happened with her and come out of the other side. You can say you don’t believe Jesus was there for her. I mean I don’t believe in Jesus in general. But i believe that her faith at least provided HER some comfort in those trying times. And trying to rip that from her to give her “something better” isn’t necessarily what she needs right now.
Becky seems to find Joyce’s attempt to look more adult really funny.
As do we all.
It’s funny, I honestly can’t tell how well this is going at the moment. It feels… less vitriolic? Despite the jabs, it feels like the middle panel is her joking WITH Joyce rather than insulting her.
Also, Joyce, come on now.
I hate this kind of atheist. I understand having your own belief, but going around basically saying “our side is better than yours” when the other person has explained to you that they have THEIR reasons for their faith and basically saying they are stupid for it is another thing entirely.
I mean, basically knocking/mocking others for their faith is the worst.
She just inverted her old evangelical playbook, because it’s what she has to work with. Hopefully she’ll calm down from this vehement anti-theist phase eventually.
As she is very newly an atheist from a very culty version of christianity I’m going to give her a pass on some jerk behaviour for a bit. One does not smoothly transition from that without some bumps.
Also she only started acting like this after she was dragged into a fight and forced to justify her newfound beliefs.
If I’m being blunt, it’s actually outrageous to me that the audience response has been so fixated on “being mean to poor Becky and Christians :(” when all of this started because Becky’s a possessive nut. Like the rest of the universe just faded away because Joyce is kind of upset for like five minutes.
Honestly, it’s because Joyce’s response to fucking up was quadrupling down on it. She’s learning, but like a kid being potty trained, it’s still pretty gross when Joyce misses the bowl.
She didn’t fuck up. She said raw shit about growing up in a death cult, and Becky and Dorothy took ownership of it.
It doesn’t matter what she actually said. It only matters what other people decided she said based on whatever portion happened to cross their ears. That’s how it works and it’s her responsibility to make sure everyone around her is constantly appeased 100% of the time or she’s a morally bankrupt troublemaker who’s just there to ruin their day and harm them as much as she can.
/S
Agreed to both. This is 100% an understandable development because of her upbringing and I recognize that and it takes some time to recognize and unlearn; nonetheless, cringing to watch.
I’m on No Becky Left Behind team.
I am not sure I am getting this right. Is she flushing out because it took a little while for Joyce to fully clock she had said “sex”, or is she reacting to considering herself as an adult and referring to herself as an actual adult make the flush out? If it’s the second one, I am not sure I am getting why.
The former.
So “No JoJo Lands” then?
Yeah, Dumbing of Age takes place in the country where the Holy Corpse is hidden, of course it’s a Jesus land.
I don’t know what it means to be an Edgy Atheist to an institution that makes life miserable for the marginalized in your society all the time, and also raised you in such a way that you’ve almost been murdered a whole bunch.
Look, if an Edgy Atheist was talking smack about Muslim, Jewish and Hindu folks, that’d be one thing, that’s actual harmful prejudice at that point because they would be engaging in a kind of punching down lionized and enforced by the society they live in, because that society they live in is defined by Christian norms enforced by their power base.
I’m an atheist (or whatever it means to think “well I’m not opposed to the existence of a God, but I’m not betting on it”) but I still formed my views and experiences from growing up in a country that is culturally Christian. Regalli put it in a way that really helped shape my views recently; I am a Culturally Christian Atheist and I still engage with my country and culture through morals taught to me by a Christian upbringing, and consequently, I have the same ability to cause harm to people who are not culturally Christian. It’d be wrong of me to be as vitriolic to another religion in a way that, bluntly, it is not at all to be to North American Christianity, because faith is what Canadian Muslims have and having that faith costs them their jobs if they’re unlucky enough to live in Quebec, whereas Canadian Christians (and, y’know, a specific kind of Canadian Christian that we’ve got in aplomb) do have that power, and they use that power to vote pasty old white dudes into office.
You don’t need to defend the cultural institution of North American Christianity from traumatized children. Both sides are not actually the same here.
I think the term you’re looking for is agnostic. Specifically Atheist agnostic. Also I’m gonna be honest, I think while living in North America means the prevalence of Christianity shapes society I think you should respect people’s beliefs, both ways. I mean it’s not as if Islam or Judaism are bereft of toxic beliefs and just because they’re the minority in America doesn’t mean that those religions can’t have similar effects in countries where they are more predominant religion. But I still think they have the right to believe and practice what they believe. I’d just prefer they practice it in a way that doesn’t harm anyone else, which Becky seems to try to be doing.
If you want to shit on people’s religion, that’s fine. Just be ok with those people not wanting to associate with you either. It’s sad but if Becky doesn’t wanna convert and Joyce doesn’t want to associate with Christians then their friendship dies here. A lot of people these days are used to hating each other and burning bridges. It’s just part of growing up.
It’s great that everyone is constantly mad at and hateful toward each other for everything, all the time now. Just gotta pick a reason, find a person, and fire away. It’s definitely not horrible for our collective mental health, being constantly bombarded with the worst things possible, day after day after day after day.
Not saying anyone here is participating in that, just adding/agreeing with that second-last sentence of yours.
Honestly I’m just sick of it. I’m sick of all of it. I’m so sick of having to deal with people. I’m always sad, or upset, or frustrated. And y’know what? I don’t think getting therapy will fix that. The problem isn’t me. it’s that human beings fucking suck. Even the so called “good ones” are hypocritical, argumentative, unaccommodating, uncaring and nepotistic. And I’m not free of any of that. I just internalize all this hatred because at a certain point I have to wonder if I’m the problem. And I hate that I have to fucking deal with it because the ONLY alternative is dying. I see now why people go off the grid and live in the mountains and shit because Hell truly is Other People.
Being online fucking sucks, because everyone else online is also a person.
The last sentence is certainly a point.
Personally I’m hypocritical, argumentative, unaccommodating and somewhat uncaring, but I draw the line at nepotism.
Describe to me, specifically, why I need to give the benefit of the doubt to the largest, most powerful cultural force in the country I live in, that does the thing that all large and powerful cultural forces engage in.
Which, y’know, was a not-at-all-subtext to talking about Christianity in North America.
My dad loved me enough that I mattered more than a lifetime of being told liking dudes made me subhuman. Why the fuck is that even a thing he was told? Why is that a thing I had to luck out on?
You don’t have to. And you can choose not to. I give people the benefit of the doubt because I want to. I want to believe in people and I want to understand them. If you hate people for what they belief and hate their beliefs then you can. I literally can’t stop you. I’m not gonna lie, I think if you hate christianity you should just hate all secular religion because a lot of it has the same effects in countries where they’re more prevalent. Being a minority somewhere doesn’t automatically change that. If it’s the harm an ideology can cause is the problem then we should at least EQUALLY hate all of these religions.
I, personally, am tired of hating things. I’ll call out someone’s shitty behavior BECAUSE of their religion but I won’t hate someone because of their beliefs and I hope nobody will hate me because of mine.
No, see, you’re confusing “religious belief” with “the actions done by a religion in the space where it’s most powerful.” There’s a reason why I’m being pretty clear on that, and it’s not as binary as you’re making it.
I don’t hate anyone for what they believe, I hate what the institutions they follow do when they have no regulation, and I hate when a follower of that institution pisses and moans that getting some attitude on the internet is any kind of equivalent pain.
More specifically, if your belief tells you hate people like me, you’re goddamned right I’m going to hate your fucking belief, and I’m gonna hate you if you don’t believe in that part but reap the rewards of being in a majority anyway.
I benefit from systemic racism and sexism because I’m a white dude, and conversely I suffer in areas thanks to being neurodivergent and queer. I ain’t out here going #NotAllMen; being a part of a majority means being cognizant of how you benefit from it and what can be done to make it better for everyone.
You’re not wrong but I don’t really want to live my life like that. You can believe what you want. If organized religion dies then it’s no skin off my ass. I’m not religious. Honestly I’m just not up for the hate train, dude. It’s killing me.
I wish I wasn’t alive so I could look at the problem objectively outside of my personal reaction but like..I exist and I want to be good to people, even if I don’t agree with them. But that’s not gonna happen. It’s never gonna happen. The world’s not gonna improve and we’ll live in this discourse for the rest of our lives. And I’m tired. I’m so tired. I accept that my opinion doesn’t matter, I’ve never suffered. And the world’s never gonna be tolerable. We’re not fixing this. At least not in my lifetime.
Yotomoe, I think your opinion matters. It matters to us. Everyone suffers in their own way, and the extent of one’s suffering does not determine the validity of one’s opinion.
Sadly, no matter how many times it’s pointed out that Christianity’s influence as a religion isn’t theoretical but real in a negative way for a lot people right down to the beliefs of even atheists, there’s still a lot of pushback as if Christianity being attacked is the same as any other religion(which is nonsense). Like even if you think Joyce is the worst for how she’s acting, her actions are a byproduct of a Christian upbringing, her smugness and attempts to convert Becky are Christian in nature(as is Becky’s dismissal of Joyce’s atheism as too extreme). But I guess a couple commenters here think all that cultural baggage doesn’t exist in this arc/argument/fight
Exactly!
You should count yourself so fucking blessed if Edgy Atheists are the worst thing you suffer as a Christian in North America.
Just say you value quiet civility over kicking up a fuss at the institutions that make us miserable.
Joyce hasn’t talked smack about Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc *yet*.
But while her mindset has been full-bore on “Christianity is for dummy dumb dumbs who are dumb and do dumb things”, do you really think she’s going to make the distinction that those who have non-Christian forms of worship deserve tolerance and respect?
You know, given how she’s been a lot less “anti-Christian” and a lot more “extremely pro-Atheist”?
If she ran into Raidah, she’d…
…
God, anyone else want to see her run into Raidah? Preferably from a long distance away, behind a few dozen sheets of bulletproof glass?
I wouldn’t be surprised, so much as I’m considering the possibility that Joyce’s current beliefs of “everything my parents told me was bad is Good, Actually” would lead her towards not acting the same way. The way she makes an impassioned plea to Ruth that “Hell isn’t real” kinda makes me think she’s still running on “everyone’s a Christian by default!” and from there we don’t technically know Joyce’s opinion on non-Christian faiths other than that her parents probably told her they were bad.
But, that’s obviously just a theory I won’t put any hard stake into. It’s really the difference between “Joyce needs to learn a lesson about treating faiths new to her” and “comedically subverting the part where Joyce needs to learn this specific lesson, since the specifics of how she processes things means she skipped over it.”
Joyce, last panel: Oh noes Grandma’s sky DVD now has me saying SEX on it I DON’T BELIEVE IN HEAVEN Grandma pls forgive me
Ewwww. Never put a restaurant menu anywhere near your face holes.
You’re not my real mom
Y-you guys don’t eat the menus? It’s my favorite appetizer.
If menus weren’t supposed to be eaten, why would they have food in them?
Oh, yeah. This is big brain time.
Brains. Mmmm.
Yeah, I’m not convinced Jesus was actually there for Becky. He certainly didn’t do anything to prevent her from going through all sorts of traumatic experiences largely caused by her shitty dad’s religious beliefs.
Honestly it reminds me of the people who brush off the hard work doctors do to help people and instead decide that “God healed them”
I’m thinking this is exactly where Becky is, given how she has implied what Joyce went through wasn’t a life-changing trauma.
I’m not sure Becky understands that there was a very real chance Joyce could have turned her over to Toedad with a smile fully believing it was the right thing to do for Becky
It certainly would have likely been in line with what their church was teaching them
God inspired doctors to heal them. Things get a lot easier with “a nice Deism,” as Dorothy suggested. If you start developing equivalencies, such as “the Holy Spirit” = “the Light” = “Nature” = “the Way” = “the Tao” = “the Universe” = “Fate” = “Divine Inspiration” = “genetic self-interest” = “Chi” = ” = “the effects of free will in a deterministic universe that has the Uncertainty Principle at its base and unpredictable chaos self-realizing in all its permutations” then you can say anything about religion and have it mean what you want it to mean.
I hate that this is a step back. Joyce was being all earnest yesterday, and now she’s gone and retreated to the smug.
I think it’s part of the give-and-take balance they’ve got going for this arc. Yesterday it was Becky’s turn to be on the back foot, now it’s Joyce’s.
At least they’re not yelling past each other anymore.
Yesterday was Becky’s turn, and the day prior, but then Joyce still had to console her all “i know yow scawed uwu”
This just bugs me cuz, like i know if i were Becky I’d take panel 1 as a confirmation of my insecurities. I’d read it as an implicit “i WILL leave you behind if you don’t follow me” and i know Joyce doesn’t actually mean that but, ehhhh
Good to see them banting though, gives me hope
So wait. I’m really confused. Does Becky still believe in Hell, or does Joyce think that she still believes in Hell?
If she does believe in Hell, does she believe that that’s where Toedad/Blaine/other villains will end up? If so, then who gets to go to Heaven and how is that choice made? It’s obviously not whether they’ve chosen to accept Christ so he can absolve their sins since Dina gets to be in Heaven (unless Becky thinks she will eventually convert Dina?). It’s obviously either not whether someone has lead a sin-free life or she’s working from a different book than me (atheist with a very limited understanding) on what Christian sins are and aren’t.
I’m asking my (very limited atheist’s) understanding of Becky’s version of Heaven seems to be incompatible with Hell, and I just don’t understand where she’s coming from, and I want to understand her better, and it feels safer/less rude asking these awkward questions about a fictional character than a real person.
that last bit should read “I’m asking because”
I suspect getting into heaven in Becky’s version is about genuinely being a good person
And how would that be judged? What does genuinely being a good person mean to Becky that she can be (well, at least she seems) 100% confident that her mother, Dina, and herself all are getting into prison?
Heaven. Stupid autocorrect.
It’s faith.
Or you could call it coping.
The best thing about Christianity is you can choose to believe you’ll go to heaven until the day you die, and then once you die, even if heaven doesn’t exist, it’s not like you have to live with those regrets. You basically never have to be dissapointed, unless a necromancer brings you back.
And that’s where I draw the line, because by the nature of the thing there’s room for interpretation between the Biblical Christ, only person who lived without sin, and advocating genocide and finding (and I’m sorry to use this phrase) both sides to be acceptable.
This is my beef with religion. When the best Christian in the comic is Dorothy – the atheist who actually turns the other cheek, who isn’t boastful, who prays inside where people cannot see her (Dorothy casually telling Joyce she regularly sees a therapist when it’s become clear Joyce should see a professional), who Joyce assumed was a Christian by her open and caring nature (her works) – because the tenants are treated as so pliable that all of Jacob, Mary, Ross, and Sierra are equally sincere in their beliefs (as in, they really buy what they’re selling), something is wrong at a structural level.
And we’re all very familiar with trying to fix a structural problem through personal change.
Many structural problems have been fixed through personal change.
That and the proper application of explosives.
That is just close enough to a church bombing joke that I’m a little uncomfortable, Clif.
I wasn’t talking about our structural problems, I was talking about other people’s structural problems.
You have NO idea how much exception I take to you calling Dorothy a christian.
If she’s inherently following the actual teachings of Christ, what would you call her?
I’d call her an atheist, because that’s what she is. She’s not actually following the teachings of Christ like believing in a very specific god, or claiming divorces don’t count, or…
(also, she’s not “following the actual teachings of Christ”. She’s doing what she thinks is right, and she’d still do them regardless of whatever Christ said. Christ is a non-factor)
Putting “Christian” in quotations when referring to Dorothy may have been a move, but that you’re more concerned about legal rigor than whether or not someone is emulating the literal messiah to whom all Christians should aspire is telling.
I grew up in a church not unlike DYW’s/Joyce’s. The only text in the entire Bible worth following is the stuff in red (it also tends to be less about religious rigor and more about treating your fellow man with equity and compassion, imagine that), and intentionally or not Dorothy follows it better than any other major character.
I don’t give a fuck about legal rigor. I give a BUNCH of fucks that you’re implying that being a good person is the same thing as being a christian, as if christianity has the monopoly on not being a shit.
As far as Dorothy is concerned, Jesus is not the messiah because messiahs aren’t a thing that exists, and what christians aspire to or not is of no influence on Dorothy because she isn’t one.
An excellent point. If you want to give Christianity the credit for Dorothy’s demeanor, you’d have to demonstrate a sound ideological pathway to Christianity itself. But that proves pretty difficult, as the pathway repeatedly splits into conflicting directions.
I didn’t read that as “Dorothy is literally a Christian whether she wants to be one or not” at all. I assumed the point was closer to “Hacky Sack Toby is a better footballer than his classmates, who all wear football gear but can’t tell the ball from a rock.” Does that make sense? Not nearly so literal.
I’m not entirely sure what you mean, but I think part of the problem is thinking that Jacob, Mary, Ross and Sierra all belong to the same religion. They’re all Christian and they’re all sincere in their beliefs, but they’re coming from very different churches with very different tenets. Ross at least wouldn’t recognize Jacob’s church as really Christian. Remember how much trouble Joyce had with it?
I’m also not really comfortable with calling Dorothy the best Christian. She’s not Christian and it’s awkwardly close to old usage of “Christian” to just mean “good”.
Joyce is 10 pounds of neuroses packed into a 5-pound bag. Becky didn’t blink at the service, she just preferred different aesthetics.
You also just described the problem and then said “That’s just how it is.” If parts of the immutable word of god can be muted depending on who’s reading it, then it’s not immutable.
That’s because “the immutable word of god” was made up by a bunch of different people living in different times, and then picked through by ANOTHER bunch of people in ANOTHER time for whatever they felt was convenient.
(also, “muted” is unrelated to “immutable” – the opposite of “immutable” is “mutable”, i.e., unchanging vs changing)
Umm yeah.
You seem to be blaming non-Fundamentalists for not believing what Fundamentalists believe. Which seems strange to me.
These reads seem almost deliberately uncharitable.
I imagine like 90% of that would be “don’t be a dick”. Be a good person, help others out, try to leave the world better than you found it, stuff like that. Pretty basic religious stuff, honestly.
Literally none of that has to do with religion, and I’m personally insulted by you implying otherwise.
You asked what Becky would think is required to get into heaven. I fully agree that none of that is unique to religion, or is in any sense religious in nature in the first place.
The point is just more that Becky’s viewpoint on Christianity is more about the broad concepts, not the specifics. If the Bible says being gay is bad, but you know being gay is totes fine? Then being gay should be good with Christianity and therefore God. Take from it what’s useful and comforting, and discard the rest.
It’s not the most stable of theological mindsets, but it’s a whole lot better than the version that Becky grew up in.
So I’ve been thinking on this a bit and I recall some of the dialog when she was talking to Toedad while he was dying seemed to imply Becky thought he was going to the same place as her mom (“tell mom I’m gonna be a while)
I think there’s 3 possibilities to explain this
1: she thinks everyone goes to heaven
2: she does think the traditional “only Christians get into heaven” and hopes to at one point convert Dina
3: like Joyce with Atheism she hasn’t actually given that much thought to what she believes
It’s definitely not 2, because at one point she says Dina is going to end up in heaven and be very mad that she was wrong.
3 seems the most likely. Not out of apathy or anything, just her not really putting a huge amount of thought into it because how often does it really come up? People she loves go to heaven, because of course they would, if they went to hell that would mean that she’s wrong or God’s wrong and that’s crisis-of-faith territory right there.
So, yeah. Figure it’s a placeholder “good people go to heaven, bad people don’t”, without having thought much about defining any of those terms.
I had assumed it was possibility 1, but that kind of seems incompatible with the idea of Hell, which is where my confusion came from and why I posted the first comment to begin with. Thanks for the reference on where she thinks Toedad’s going.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2020/comic/book-10/03-when-it-crumbles/intendedtobe/
I had previously ruled out 2 (because she doesn’t seem super interested in converting anyone, especially Dina). I hadn’t even considered 3, because it seemed to me she’s been religious in this way for her entire life, but I’d forgotten both that she’s still pretty much a teenager and also the title of the comic.
Yeah, I think 1 or 3, or most likely a combination of the two tied up in the complicated feelings about her dead parents.
She may think of it in the way Gon from Hunter x Hunter sees morality. Gon is best friends with Killua because he was never taught the value of life, therefore Killua is not ‘evil’ for being an assassin or when he killed people in the past as he was never taught better and tries hard not to resort to it once he has a better understanding.
Meanwhile, the Phantom Troupe, who Gon initially didn’t mind as he presumed they were like Killua, revealed they understood killing is wrong and could have true empathy about it as they did know the value of life, but liked doing it anyway. Which made them bad people.
So if she uses logic like that, people like her Dad who had the core where he could have been like Joyce if he had a better upbringing or better understanding of how the stuff he did was messed up could be deemed as ‘Heaven worthy’ as God would be understanding that he had the true potential to be a ‘good’ person even if he wasn’t in how he actually acted all the time.
While Hell may be solely for people like Blaine whose upbringing and opportunities did not make him evil, but rather he chose to be and knew outright his actions were not good. He did not believe he was doing the right thing and did not care. And he showed no remorse for his actions.
It is also possible she hasn’t thought about it in depth or that she is entirely thinking of it in terms of what she would prefer i.e. she loves her dad as messed as he is so he goes to Heaven and Hell exists for people she hates. Which is not really an uncommon way to think about it either.
That “Jesus was there for me” line made me feel sad for all the people out there who really believe it. Love and loyalty for a story. For a figment of imagination.
Believing in something bigger and better than yourself is the only thing that keeps people alive in some situations. You can see a lot of Beckys in homeless shelters. Unless you’re personally going to be there for them instead, I wouldn’t suggest taking Jesus from them.
Or at the very least, substitute him for Spider-Man.
What’s sad about an imaginary character believing in another imaginary character?
Read what I wrote, a little more carefully.
Are you saying that all those people out there aren’t imaginary?
In an infinite multiverse? Somewhere out there a Jesus is losing to Becky at beer pong
Hey, Son Goku died for our sins.
Nah, pretty sure just Vegeta’s.
Almost exclusively Vegeta’s, even. Vegeta didn’t off Raditz when he had the chance, Goku wound up dead. Vegeta fucked around and let Cell power up, Goku wound up dead once more. Vegeta also died for his own sins against Buu, because he was just On One at the time
Technically it was a bit of everyone’s fault Goku died. But most of all Vegeta’s. Also his own quite a bit.
Figments of imagination are very real. Yeah, there is probably some kind of objective reality out there somewhere, but it’s not where we live.
I think it’s called “fandom” and all of us have it.
At least there’s a million better works to choose from than what’s practically a panegyric to ancient absolutism.
Damn, Joyce had an opportunity to bridge the gap there when Becky revealed her vulnerability. She could have gone for “just because theism isn’t my guiding light on the path anymore, doesn’t mean we can’t still walk down the path together” or something cool like that.
I think deep down Joyce has made it clear that this is a stopgap for their relationship.
But that would require Joyce to think there is a path going somewhere rather than a single step to perfect material, intellectual and spiritual fulfillment labeled “Reject God”. I don’t think anything can happen here without Joyce trying to quiet down and learn about some nuances.
She’s not actually wrong though. She’s realised how much mental energy she had to spend chasing something imaginary. She shouldn’t need to pretend, nor would she want her friend to stay trapped in that.
Her friend isn’t trapped. She’s comfortable. Regardless of if it’s imaginary or not, she’s comfortable.
“Comfortable” is overrated. AFAIK most people who claim to truly believe are play acting to some degree. People in general don’t really believe a lot of the silly stuff they claim to believe.
I don’t believe most of the stuff I claim to believe either but questioning those things makes me uncomfortable. If someone takes comfort in believing in a sky daddy looking out for them and that their loved ones aren’t just rotting corpses in the dirt, I don’t think it’s gonna…HELP them to lose that. If they want to find something else I’ll be more than willing to say what I believe but if they’re fine with their current setup I’m not gonna try to change that. Again, as long as they’re not using it against others.
I have no idea why people keep saying that Joyce has to do all the work in this relationship.
This
I dont even think Joyce is 100% blameless here, but it’s honestly a little irritating seeing people twist everything trying to make Becky 100% blameless
Just in the last two strips Becky was mocking Joyce and saying everything about her was some potential lie, and then Joyce just ignored it so she could go “I know you have coping mechanisms!”
Nobody can ask Joyce what the hell motivated this.
I don’t think sex before marriage sent you to hell, I think it was a property offense in the bible, it lowered or destroyed a daughter’s value to sell her to another family. Also they had no idea how conception worked back then, so men thought if a woman had had sex with someone else years ago then a part of that man would still be in her and taint his heir. I would also site the punishment for rape, being a fine and forced marriage (which is really just another way to say “you broke it, you bought it”) as evidence that there isn’t an eternal punishment for premarital sex, since it’s treated as a simple property crime.
Don’t confuse any historical practices with the teachings of the church the Browns and McIntires attended that were probably written in the 1950s, with an emphasis on making children scared of sex, making women obedient, and making people loyal to the
cultcommunity.Oh, HAVE I GOT NEWS FOR YOU concerning historical christian practices and “making women obedient.”
You know what I just realized, out of every main cast member present for the argument we still haven’t heard Joe’s thoughts on everything
I’m interested to see what his take on this whole mess is
Oh, wow, yeah. Especially considering they came to his room to “find sin” in the first place.
I imagine his thoughts are on the order of “fucked if I know”. Joe’s… never been a particularly introspective character, but he hit a very uncomfortable point with things and he might not be fully at home with where things are.
Ask him before his evening encounter with Liz? I imagine his thoughts would just be on the order of “let people be”. Not out of a sense of nobility or morality or any shit like that, just as a matter of convenience, no sense getting involved with stuff that’s stable and doesn’t need fixing.
Delay activated
I shouldn’t have come back.
I know this comment section can be hard/frustrating. It is for me too. If disengaging from it altogether is what’s best for you, do that. I get that that sucks because this comic section can also be fun or enlightening, but if it’s wearing on you too much to get to that part, take care of yourself.
Also, you can limit who you engage with on here. Sometimes I wish we could block commentors like on a forum, but you can always try your best to just keep scrolling. In the past, I’ve asked someone on here not to interact with my posts, and it made it more tolerable than it had been. It’s something I’ll probably do again, honestly. Just to bring up that that is an option for you as well.
I appreciate your contributions to this comment section. If you do decide to take a break or stop commenting altogether, know that you’ve added value. Again, hope you take care of yourself. <3
Yeah, it can get really overwhelming for me sometimes too (especially with my neurodivergent stripes in the mix), but if I still feel like commenting, I try to start a conversation about something else.
Here, I’ll demonstrate right now (if Yumi doesn’t mind).
What was your favorite cartoon from the 90s and why?
If your answer is anything other than the Powerpuff Girls you are dead to me.
Though to be fair, Duck Tails wouldn’t totally keep you out of heaven.
I have no idea how it’s possible to misspell Animaniacs that badly, but you managed it.
That question is actually somewhat difficult to answer because a lot of the shows I like technically STARTED in the 90s but a majority of their run was in the 2000s. Ie. Ed Edd n Eddy, PPG, Courage the Cowardly dog, Spongebob etc. I watched Daria for the first time last year and really enjoyed it, so I think that’d be my answer. I can’t actually think of a lot more 90s cartoons off the top of my head.
Hey, if you feel like you need a break, take a break. Don’t feel bad about taking care of yourself.
When you’re up to it again, jump back in. We’ll still be here!
I’m sorry you feeling like that.
This Joyce x Becky arc is very controversial, and still so close to each of us. Each page always reach above 300 comments.
If you want, take any time you need, but don’t forget come back, as you are so precious for everybody here.
I’m glad you did, but if you need to take some more time away, please do so.
Dumbing of Age Book 12: Because There Is No Hell
You are both wrong about several things, you are both being shitty to each other, personal beliefs are very personal and not someone betraying anyone else, and, for god’s sake, why am I so invested in this?
Good writing.
THIS.
Because it’s a very, very real situation that a lot of people have either gone through or could very easily see themselves going through. Guud writing.
Dammit Joyce, that’s a fundie stereotype of atheists what are you doing