I don’t know about the Dumbiverse, but I do feel that every member of Squad 128 has a team avatar counterpart
Walky=Aang, goofy acting hero who secretly hurts on the inside
Sal=Zuko, constantly walks the line between good and evil, before settling on good
Joyce=Katara, love interest of the hero, largest heart of the group
Jason=Sokka, has no powers but frequently fights (and wins) against those who do, acts as both the main strategist and leader of the team (before the hero matures enough to take the role as leader)
Mike=Toph, this one is kinda stretching it, but they both make fun of their teammates, although Mike would probably make Toph cry, she really has nothing on him
Given that i’ve been waiting to say this for a while, i’m just gonna leave it here now.
Kinda a double standard to get on Roz’s back for going off on joyce, when, the time they’d spoken before, joyce was openly slut shaming her. Not saying Roz was right to do it, but in her shoes, i’d have personally said a LOT worse.
they are both really self-righteous kind of passionate. except now Joyce’s worldview has been shattered and she doesn’t have a steady foundation on which to be self-righteous.
Honestly? Yeah. As well as what altalemur said. They both want to be their best self. They are both full of passion for what they believe and are not afraid to share their opinions. And both are full of empathy and care for others even if they are not aware at the time the full impact of their words.
And in some ways, Joyce is always going to bring out Roz’s worst. Not just because she slut-shamed her a lot and comes from a background that has fought tirelessly against a lot of issues she cares about. But because she’s rooming with Mary and is constantly being inundated with the worst of fundie culture and so often has reduced tolerance for Joyce’s fundier moments than most.
Well, she was also very disrespectful to Leslie, who is both her teacher and a member of the group she supposedly cares so much about defending. That might be factoring into it a tiny bit.
If I say that as a LGBT individual, I punched the air and screamed in triumph the moment Roz said ‘That was you’, does that make it okay then? I mean, Leslie, and Leslie’s desires, absolutely deserved respect. But let’s not pretend that she’s in charge of the Gay Hive Mind. That’s Neil Patrick Harris.
The “That was you” moment? Yeah, that was fine. Carrying on while the teacher shouts at you to be quiet? Going a little bit far. Then yelling at the teacher even after your target has run from the room, apparently in tears? You should probably start thinking about toning it down at that point.
Does that help though? Is rubbing someone’s nose in it productive?
Especially a kid who’s been immersed in it her whole childhood and who’s making those kinds of breakthroughs within weeks of being exposed to the world.
Is punishing her and making her feel even worse about it a good way to make allies? Is it something the class should encourage?
It sorts out the twerps who turn back into reactionaries as soon as they’re vaguely challenged – the white moderates as described by King. Anyone who won’t learn would have turned out to be useless anyway.
I’m not at all sure of that. Particularly not with someone like Joyce who really is coming face to face with reality outside of her bubble. It’s easy for open hostility to drive someone away, when they’re making those first tentative steps.
Welcome them in and challenge them more gradually and they’re more likely to stick to it.
Sure, as long as I can also say that, as an LGBT individual, I punched the air and went “yes!!!” When Leslie shouted Roz down for talking over her in her own classroom. That is the last kind of behavior we want to encourage in allies and I don’t blame her one bit for not immediately being all buddy-buddy with Roz.
At first I thought Roz was right, then I thought she was just being a self righteous jerk, then I realized it was both and the answer lied in the middle.
I think Roz is one of those who’s much more into being (self) right(eous) than actually helping anyone. The cause, and other people, only matter insofar as they allow her to claim moral superiority. In the end, it’s all about her (and her own family quarrels, and winning them).
Exactly what evidence do you have for that? I mean, Roz doesn’t get as much screen-time as Joyce, so she can’t have as many moments of ‘but she’s actually a good person, really!’ but there is right now, where she says outright that she’s going to try to keep things peaceful (a very low bar to clear given the circumstances, but I could see a completely amoral Roz saying ‘wish you’d said that to her after the Dean showed up’) and she gave Joyce a business card for a psychiatrist after she heard what happened (which Joyce proceeded to assume was a witch.)
Yeah, we’ve seen her out and about passing out her condoms and doing legitimate activism and we’ve seen her be supportive of Joyce trying to get her resources for the sexual assault and try and pass on support to Riley with regards to potential sexual orientations.
She cares.
She just has no tolerance for fundie culture because her roommate is Mary and as she notes here, she’s full of passion. Passion that can lead her to go overboard or put herself into unsustainable or inappropriate positions. See her rant at Joyce or her attempted political gotcha with her sister that was completely defused by the Dean.
And a large part of that isn’t that she’s a fake activist. It’s that she’s young and still learning the right balance between activism and passion and being respectful of everyone around you and their potential backgrounds. And with things like gender politics, she feels she knows everything because she’s educated herself a lot, but is having to learn humility and a realization that she’s still got a bit to go to fully grow into the person she wants to be.
I just assumed that since Dorothy was part of the press sent to cover what happened, she intentionally left out Becky from the report so there wouldn’t be any more problems.
It isn’t clear at this point (I think) whether Becky’s housing situation has been resolved at all. It may be that her presence was downplayed by the group to prevent people from questioning what she was doing on campus in the first place.
Becky is acting almost completely unaffected by the whole thing while Joyce is visibly distressed about it. I agree that Becky deserves AT LEAST as much care attention as Joyce, but so far she hasn’t shown any indication that she WANTS that. Becky seems like she has things mostly sorted out at the moment (no idea whether she actually does, but that’s what it looks like). Joyce is acting completely different than her normal self and is obviously extremely unhappy. It makes sense that people are more worried about her right now, because she’s doing things that would worry anybody who knows her.
I think it’s mostly due to the fact that she did pretty much go through a primer when her dad took her out of school. Which Joyce helped her through. After that, she had already altered her perception of her dad, and had changed herself enough to feel comfortable.
When her dad came with the gun, it was painful to force her idea of her dad further down that slope, but easier after having been through her last week.
But Joyce didn’t really have that experience first hand.
She didn’t have the teachings she grew up with turn on her, almost violently.
The closest she got was where her parents came over, and that was her teachings turning on those that she had already been told to hate.
She didn’t have a primer for her old authority figures turning violent against her.
…
That being said, yeah, Becky should be getting some attention, but she seem to be receptive to help. She knows what happens was her dad going out of control, and that who and what she is, is natural and comfortable.
But Joyce… She’s confronting a whole new idea. That her religion can be twisted to violence.
This is actually really important to consider in the long run. Yes, we know that Joyce is having a crisis of faith at the moment. As I’ve mentioned before, that’s perfectly justifiable given the rather extraneous circumstances. But think about it. If her crisis of faith doesn’t shake her off completely, it’s entirely possible that she’ll become another Ross. She may actually end up retreating FURTHER into her religion the worse her religion is revealed to be.
Think about it like this. A rat is trapped under a deck with a feral cat during a massive storm. The cat is sleeping, and the rat is terrified of the rain. The rat has three options. It could either venture out into the storm, face the threat of death, and be consumed entirely by the unknown. The rat could also just dig a small hole and sleep there in the HOPES that the feral cat doesn’t find it, and if it does, it isn’t hungry. The final option is to kill the cat using it’s (freakishly) sharp front teeth.
In that scenario, the ‘rat’ is Joyce. The ‘rain’ is the change brought about by her crisis of faith, and the ‘cat’ is her religion. Joyce will either venture out further into her fears and hope that she can overcome them, retreat further back into her religion and hope that it doesn’t turn around on her, or attempt to vanquish her religion, but in the process potentially becoming what she hated.
It’s far more likely that she’ll abandon the extremism than double down on it. Remember how horrified she was when she realized her mother was justifying Ross’s armed kidnapping using the same reasoning he was? Her outrage in gender studies class after learning religious organizations actively persecute LGBT people? The speech full of bible quotes she threw at her parents when they told her to stop associating with athiests, just because they found their lack of faith disturbing? She’s eyeballs-deep in a crisis of faith, but she’s still treading water. I’d be surprised if she went full Mary after all that.
Also, Joyce is a reflection of David Willis’s experiences growing up in a fundie household. We probably wouldn’t be here discussing it right now had he chosen to retreat into religion.
Becky had to live with her dad. so I think that that leaves her in a place of…relief? that she doesn’t have to deal with it anymore? not much has shifted for her, she’s probably been living with the fear that her dad might do something for a long time. she’s escaped. whereas for Joyce her struggle is really just beginning.
I keep wondering if Becky has any estranged relatives she could get in touch with. With Ross’s religious views there could be some out there he cut contact with. Of course the problem is finding them.
Another thing to do this weekend when ransacking her home, but probably won’t happen.
Also, Becky’s cheerful attitude towards everything is probably giving others the impression that she’s been shaken, but is probably doing okay all things considered. Meanwhile Joyce is openly showing signs of trauma.
media are not allowed to include the name of victims of assault and other crimes. if Roz and Prof. Bean know, it’s from social media and not official media.
Not true. There’s no law against it, at least not in the US,, but most traditional media organizations have practices, if not policy, against it. And sometimes “forget” that info. Media landscape these days is for every question to have to jump through the hoops of the supposedly transparency-encouraging but actually the opposite, public-records request process. The US media actually has no legal.right of.access.that the public itself does not have, but people too willing to go.along with the demonization of the media anana what that means to.their own rights of access.to public information.
The wored “alleged” is a get-out-of-accountability-free card. Count how many times you hear it in a newscast.
News outlets will hold names back if there are minors involved. Sal wouldn’t have been named in reports of her convenience store robbery, but Ross and Becky would have been named since she’s 18.
1. People in the college know Joyce, Becky is an outsider.
2. Those who do know Becky know that she’s taking things in her stride, but know that Joyce is clearly experiencing trauma.
Also, people who are not on the inside will assume that Becky is not around anymore, that she has gone off to a homeless shelter or the home of a sympathetic friend or relative*. So they wish her well in abstract, but there isn’t any direct effect on what they should do or not do. Joyce is here, so they need to support her or at least not do anything to give her more problems.
* There no evidence either way about the existence of any of these things, but most people won’t know that.
I agree 100%.
Since the strip with Becky doing the comforting of poor Joyce who was kicking the crap out of Toedad along the road: the road where Toedad had kidnapped his daughter Becky (and her friend Dina) off the campus, smacked her in the car, then wrecked it while trying to (most likely) kill Amazi-girl.
Yup, poor Joyce really had a rough day. (Yes Joyce was almost raped and had her world view stood on end, so she needs compassion, but there is a limit to her world view revolving around her).
Her friend couldn’t used a bit of compassion and hugs from her: and Joyce can’t even ‘see’ her right now.
Too bad for both of them.
I don’t think Leslie know about Becky or I’m pretty sure she would be concerned, too bad she doesn’t know…Becky could use her connections.
Why would Becky be mentioned in this exchange? Yes, she’s had a bad time, but she’s not relevant to how Roz treats Joyce in a class Becky won’t even be at.
Has Leslie ever managed to teach a class that didn’t turn into Drama?
I mean, I know it’s actually been weeks, but I like to think that in the classes happening “off camera” the Drama is just happening to other characters.
See that girl with the purple hair in the first panel? Last week she discovered the curly haired girl in front of her is actually her long lost half sister, because her dad had an affair with his secretary, and she kind of wants to get to know her sister, but the affair destroyed her parents’ marriage so it’s all kind of super awkward.
And naturally it all came to light in this class, because everything does. Someday Leslie will write a goddamned book about this place.
“Do you know what Billie is majoring in?”
“Gender Studies, I think.”
“Oh, really? I was thinking… DRAMA.”
“I mean, it’s really the same thing at this school.”
Between Robin and the Dean, it was strongly suggested that Roz display a little more decorum. Dressing in a more conservative manner (business casual) might be her way of doing this.
Ah, thank you…I was sure I remembered seeing her in the jacket without pants, but couldn’t remember where…I should have known it was one of your character design posts.
Roz is cool enough that even though Lez isn’t buddy-buddy with her, she still wants her to get some of The Big D.
.
.
.
.
The D stands for DeSanto. And Robin is (probably) the oldest sister.
I dunno, I kinda got a hostile vibe from the way Roz said that. As in, “you’re not friendly with me but you still are wanting me to bring my sister in here so you can ogle her”
Roz laid into Joyce really harshly for her views, and Leslie reprimanded her for it, stating that was beyond the discussion.
However, Joyce had really given Roz a hard time about her way of life also, I did wonder why she wasn’t called out on that.
When Leslie walked in on that, Roz and Joyce were already laying into each other pretty loudly; Leslie didn’t see who started it, and missed most of Joyce’s worst comments. What Leslie did do was stop the argument, not least because she had her special guests coming in. http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/continue/
Stopping the argument is what she tried to do the next time too; it just didn’t take on that occasion.
Yeah, Leslie tries to distract and transition from arguments. A large part of why things went completely off the rails and Leslie is still a little annoyed is that Roz refused to stop badgering a fellow student after telling her to knock it off multiple times.
And another big part of why Leslie might be a little affected is that the topic they have been trying to cover is a really personal one for Leslie. She’s directly impacted by homophobic oppression in a major way and has had to deal with her own version of her “sweet lesbian facts”, so having that class where she showed some vulnerability in disclosing her past completely devolve into chaos probably stung a bit more than normal and has her praying for the week to be over so she can fully reset.
For the Brit-slang.
“It’s crackers (foolish, crazy, stupid) to slip a rozzer (give a policeman) the dropsy (bribe, payoff) in snide (counterfeit money).”
Because ROZ is a slutty bongo and Joyce is a pure, precious flower that must be empathized and coddled at all times, (and I actually wrote bongo not have the filter change it) Seriously, the discussion on the comic the last time this popped up irked me.
Roz yelled at a biggot that was telling someone they were bad for not living the life style she wanted, after she planned to convert them from their religion and had someone assault them…
Joyce pretty much called Roz a slut, and as said had Joe Assaulted, but people sympathize and agree with Joyce (Joyce’s best friend gets kidnapped, everyone comforts and focuses on Joyce)
I don’t get why Joyce is a precious delicate thing that needs to be understood, and Roz is a jerkity jerk for being loud in class…
Seconded. I love Leslie, but she’s being a total bongo about this. Roz has proven she is willing to defend her worldview, not flash she’s evil and wants people to suffer. Les is playing favorites.
Autocorrect mangled this post. “Flash” should have been “that,” and “bongo” should have been something way less funny. (I’m going to start calling people total bongos now.)
The first interaction in class, where Joyce is babbling about precious flowers, Roz is at least justified. Joyce was definitely in the wrong in that exchange. But she stopped when Leslie entered and derailed the argument.
The second time, Roz tore into Joyce when, and apparently because, Joyce realized how bad the church was to gay people. That kind of awakening and change of view is rare and hard to bring about. Attacking someone in the middle of it is a real good way to bring the defenses back up and shove them back into denial.
And of course, she didn’t stop when Leslie told her to.
Roz isn’t evil. I like her. But she was way out of line there. Just like Joyce was in the earlier case.
She was out of line, but people REALLLY hate on Roz for being loud and judgemental, but JOYCE is okay b/c she was just a poor brainwashed fundie, it’s okay if she calls people sluts, or talks down to them for their beliefs?????
I 108% agree with you here. People getting on the Roz hate train whilst Joyce is flawless and perfect completely rubs me up the wrong way. I think last time someone tried to say that Roz only gave the card to antagonize Joyce, or something?
Some people do that because they like to! There were a couple of guys in my high school who came to school in, like, three piece suits. It was just their style.
I think she’s worn a similar sort of style before (not sure about the jacket, but definitely a tie and collared shirt with shorts), so it’s probably just something she does.
Kids going back to dressing for a higher education, maybe.
My HS and college had dress codes. No shorts, no t-shirts, no jeans, no purple mohawks
Kind of funny Plasma. Back when I was in school, anyone dressing like 99 of the DoA in class would have elicited the “What in the heck are those guys wearing to class?”
From her brief appearance, and applying what we know of Robin from SP!, I figure she just got into politics as a way to gain some power and notoriety, and doesn’t actually believe a word she’s saying.
For a tiny fraction of a second, I thought I’d accidentally clicked on an old bookmark for Shortpacked!, and there had been an update. Ah, what a beautiful, impossible world that would have been.
Honestly, I’m really proud of Roz here. She’s owning her behavior and the social cost it has had with her teacher and her reputation. And she even shows awareness of the personality trait that led to her being inappropriate in the first place. It’s clear that Roz has introspected a bit since the last encounter and is a little bit hurt that Leslie doesn’t trust her to learn from said mistake.
And she’s showing a lot of empathy towards Joyce, recognizing the position she’s in and the stuff she’s been through and absolutely appalled at the idea of ragging on her while she’s dealing with all that.
As she says, she’s passionate and that can lead her to bad places, but she’s a good kid who tries to better herself and honestly, that does matter for a lot even if she’s got a lot of work to do to fully return to her teacher’s good graces.
Yeah, I agree. This is almost an apology. Factor in their interaction at the party (that leslie doesn’t know about) and I think Roz and Joyce are pretty cool with each other.
“I’m passionate, not a monster”
*turns to camera and winks* “unless you count in bed”
So let’s see if I get it right what Roz just said:
“Sorry, I realize there are borders I shouldn’t cross. Would my hot sister work as a peace offering?”
I better say this now than later( ‘cuz I’m sure I’ll forget it):Well ,this wasn’t a calm year if I can say and I hope the coming one will be better for all the people around the world. I wish you all people a Happy New Year! Bonne année! Frohes neues Jahr! Felice anno nuovo! Feliz año nuevo! S novim godom!
I hope you’ll have a good time partying or spending it with your familly/friends!
Yeah, supposedly we’re about to enter into a more Mary focused bit, so hopefully we’ll get to see a little more of Roz in the dorms trying to counter Mary’s bullshit.
I’ve been thinking of Roz’s formal dress and I’m wondering if she’s trying to emulate how Robin dresses when on ‘official duties’. Occasionally I got the impression in Shortpacked that, no matter how obnoxious Roz could be, she idolised Robin in many ways and wanted to be like her.
i kinda just want joyce to settle down and have a big long embarrassing cry with like. snotbuckets and piles of tissues. because it sucks and everything sucks and it doesn’t get easier you just learn how to deal with it.
and um. i really enjoy how complicated this drama is and how people are just. well-intentioned but still conflicty here. it’s great.
I realized that Joe is almost definitely entering the Gender Studies Class here, as he gestures toward his genitals. All that’s missing is his “Classy” shirt.
2016 is (almost) upon us, and in some parts of the world, it’s already 2016. The year is about to change, but Joe never will.
Just curious — what exactly are they studying in “Gender Studies”? I looked up Gender Studies in an IU class catalog and I would assume that Leslie’s course is analogous to real-life G600: Concepts of Gender. But how the heck do you teach something like that — what sort of textbook would you use, for example? — and other than class attendance/participation (and possible essay or written assignments), how would you grade a course like this?
Here's an entertaining cite at the bottom of the first page
Josh Gerstein@joshgerstein.bsky.social ⋅ 17h
JUST IN: Milwaukee Judge Hannah Dugan moves to dismiss federal criminal case against her for allegedly helping immigrant hide from ICE. Her lawyers say she's protected by official acts & judicial immunity and 10th Amendment. Doc: storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.us...
Where did Hollywood go so wrong? I thought movies were supposed to be an escape from reality, a chance to put your worries aside and not have to think about any underlying ideas or concepts. Well, not anymore.
theonion.com/you-can...
It's not a new argument, of course, but Chesterton dismissed it effectively in 1908.
"You will hear everlastingly... this argument that the rich man cannot be bribed. The fact is, of course, that the rich man is bribed; he has been bribed already. That is why he is a rich man."
Aaron Rupar@atrupar.com ⋅ 21h
Hawley dismisses Trump lining his pockets with his memecoin: "Listen, I think nobody believes that Donald Trump can be bought. I mean, what does Donald Trump need more money for?"
wilbur, savvy enough to know he's in a comic strip but still not a great actor, awkwardly lifts a muffin up into frame so that we, the audience, understand that he has a muffin right now, which is very important narratively, but he's not really selling it well as an organic, human action
confirming that the reason there's been no Galaxy Version female characters in Blokees until now is that they felt they needed to make Round Lady Thighs For Ladies
It's #webcomicday? We have a special day???
Well, my name is Pat McHoarney and I draw 69 Mouse-Ear Blvd, a multigenerational story about women who all have sexy legs and probably other features. There was a grandmother, but she wasn't hot and so she died off-panel.
Elizabeth Holmes is in prison for defrauding investors through her blood-testing company, Theranos. Her partner, Billy Evans, is now trying to raise money for a company that describes itself as “the future of diagnostics.” nyti.ms/3FbtZm9
Josh Gerstein @joshgerstein.bsky.social ⋅ 17h
Aaron Rupar @atrupar.com ⋅ 21h
Pavel
@spavel.bsky.social ⋅ 10d
The New York Times @nytimes.com ⋅ 5d
preternia @preternia.com ⋅ 3d
Loading ...
“I’m just gonna go over here and change my name to Ms. Glass, ’cause I’m so transparent”
“You seem transparent, but I can see you plotting something in the background.”
But that would ruin a perfectly good pun.
… this does make things panefully clear …
Hate to shatter your illusions but…
That’s it. Glass the planet. Only way to be sure.
No, not Glass! I thought Spinny blew him up! Wait… wrong comic.
“While we’re at it, tell your sister to consider changing her name to Ms. Mirror. ‘Cause I wanna gaze into her all day long.
“Nope, that doesn’t sound like street harassment one bit..”
The next morning, Leslie awoke to find her name had been legally changed to “Glass Joe.”
“No need to thank me,” the Legally-Renaming Fairy exclaimed as she fluttered toward the horizon.
I guess Leslie’s a French man now? I think she has a match later today.
Leslie Glass hmmm, needs a little more. Letsee Thru Glass.
goddammit i’m waiting for someone to make an ira glass joke since i can’t come up with a good enough one
“Hughnon reflected that ‘entirely transparent’ meant either that you could see right through them or that you couldn’t see them at all.”
… She really should wear glasses. To make sure her eyes stay near her skull.
I hope this class goes well for everyone…
Oh who am I kidding.
The day when the class goes well for everyone will end up being the day the Fire Nation attack or something >.>
Leslie: Well that was a fun class, where nothing went wrong!
Meanwhile, in an alternate universe: ALL THE AIRBENDERS ARE BURNING!
Question: Would this alternate universe mean that Joyce is Zuko, or would Becky be a better fit? And does that make Joe Jet?
I don’t know about the Dumbiverse, but I do feel that every member of Squad 128 has a team avatar counterpart
Walky=Aang, goofy acting hero who secretly hurts on the inside
Sal=Zuko, constantly walks the line between good and evil, before settling on good
Joyce=Katara, love interest of the hero, largest heart of the group
Jason=Sokka, has no powers but frequently fights (and wins) against those who do, acts as both the main strategist and leader of the team (before the hero matures enough to take the role as leader)
Mike=Toph, this one is kinda stretching it, but they both make fun of their teammates, although Mike would probably make Toph cry, she really has nothing on him
Yeah… but those who make Toph cry… have unpleasant things with soil and rocks happen to them.
Well, she asked Roz to behave, not to apologize. I don’t think the current Joyce is gonna initiate any kind of conv, if she bother coming at all.
Damn politicians and their careers, why can’t they just show up immediately?
VIP-s always arrive late, don’t you know that?
gasp! does that mean that all electricians, movers, and plumbers are super important??
Well YEAH.
Well, if they wear ties, I guess you can say they are important.
Given that i’ve been waiting to say this for a while, i’m just gonna leave it here now.
Kinda a double standard to get on Roz’s back for going off on joyce, when, the time they’d spoken before, joyce was openly slut shaming her. Not saying Roz was right to do it, but in her shoes, i’d have personally said a LOT worse.
aren’t they basically exact opposites and at the same time exactly the same.
Joyce: Conservative girl, who’s means well but sometimes has trouble understanding different viewpoints
Roz: Liberal girl, who means well but sometimes has trouble understand different viewpoints
Leslie: Sane person caught in the middle.
Watch when happens when they all move in together, Tuesdays on CBS.
“Last week CBS’s new sitcom Bean There generated continued strong ratings, and expectations are that it will be given a full season order.”
they are both really self-righteous kind of passionate. except now Joyce’s worldview has been shattered and she doesn’t have a steady foundation on which to be self-righteous.
Honestly? Yeah. As well as what altalemur said. They both want to be their best self. They are both full of passion for what they believe and are not afraid to share their opinions. And both are full of empathy and care for others even if they are not aware at the time the full impact of their words.
And in some ways, Joyce is always going to bring out Roz’s worst. Not just because she slut-shamed her a lot and comes from a background that has fought tirelessly against a lot of issues she cares about. But because she’s rooming with Mary and is constantly being inundated with the worst of fundie culture and so often has reduced tolerance for Joyce’s fundier moments than most.
Well, she was also very disrespectful to Leslie, who is both her teacher and a member of the group she supposedly cares so much about defending. That might be factoring into it a tiny bit.
If I say that as a LGBT individual, I punched the air and screamed in triumph the moment Roz said ‘That was you’, does that make it okay then? I mean, Leslie, and Leslie’s desires, absolutely deserved respect. But let’s not pretend that she’s in charge of the Gay Hive Mind. That’s Neil Patrick Harris.
The “That was you” moment? Yeah, that was fine. Carrying on while the teacher shouts at you to be quiet? Going a little bit far. Then yelling at the teacher even after your target has run from the room, apparently in tears? You should probably start thinking about toning it down at that point.
I can’t really fault her for any point. Because if you’re not in tears after that, you’ve not had your nose rubbed in it hard enough.
Does that help though? Is rubbing someone’s nose in it productive?
Especially a kid who’s been immersed in it her whole childhood and who’s making those kinds of breakthroughs within weeks of being exposed to the world.
Is punishing her and making her feel even worse about it a good way to make allies? Is it something the class should encourage?
It sorts out the twerps who turn back into reactionaries as soon as they’re vaguely challenged – the white moderates as described by King. Anyone who won’t learn would have turned out to be useless anyway.
I’m not at all sure of that. Particularly not with someone like Joyce who really is coming face to face with reality outside of her bubble. It’s easy for open hostility to drive someone away, when they’re making those first tentative steps.
Welcome them in and challenge them more gradually and they’re more likely to stick to it.
Sure, as long as I can also say that, as an LGBT individual, I punched the air and went “yes!!!” When Leslie shouted Roz down for talking over her in her own classroom. That is the last kind of behavior we want to encourage in allies and I don’t blame her one bit for not immediately being all buddy-buddy with Roz.
Or in other words; it’s complicated!
At first I thought Roz was right, then I thought she was just being a self righteous jerk, then I realized it was both and the answer lied in the middle.
Like the answers to almost every issue.
I think Roz is one of those who’s much more into being (self) right(eous) than actually helping anyone. The cause, and other people, only matter insofar as they allow her to claim moral superiority. In the end, it’s all about her (and her own family quarrels, and winning them).
Exactly what evidence do you have for that? I mean, Roz doesn’t get as much screen-time as Joyce, so she can’t have as many moments of ‘but she’s actually a good person, really!’ but there is right now, where she says outright that she’s going to try to keep things peaceful (a very low bar to clear given the circumstances, but I could see a completely amoral Roz saying ‘wish you’d said that to her after the Dean showed up’) and she gave Joyce a business card for a psychiatrist after she heard what happened (which Joyce proceeded to assume was a witch.)
Yeah, we’ve seen her out and about passing out her condoms and doing legitimate activism and we’ve seen her be supportive of Joyce trying to get her resources for the sexual assault and try and pass on support to Riley with regards to potential sexual orientations.
She cares.
She just has no tolerance for fundie culture because her roommate is Mary and as she notes here, she’s full of passion. Passion that can lead her to go overboard or put herself into unsustainable or inappropriate positions. See her rant at Joyce or her attempted political gotcha with her sister that was completely defused by the Dean.
And a large part of that isn’t that she’s a fake activist. It’s that she’s young and still learning the right balance between activism and passion and being respectful of everyone around you and their potential backgrounds. And with things like gender politics, she feels she knows everything because she’s educated herself a lot, but is having to learn humility and a realization that she’s still got a bit to go to fully grow into the person she wants to be.
When did Roz ever help Joyce with the sexual assault? I was under the impression she didn’t even know that Joyce had been assaulted at the party.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/03-the-first-step-towards-recovery/card-2/
Here.
Huh, guess I missed that.
You’re right, she didn’t, and she put her foot in her mouth unwittingly. But, well, there is what Stoneheart linked.
Oh, this nonsense again.
This. I absolutely refuse to come down harder on Roz rather than Joyce, just because Joyce’s beliefs are more prevalent.
*plays Tears For Fears’ “Everybody Wants To Rule The World” on the hacked Muzak*
I can never hear that song without wanting popcorn.
I envy you. That song leaves me with contempt for Dennis Miller.
That song tends to make me think about Mojo Jojo these days.
Remind me never to find video of Dennis Miller Live in case it turns out I’m agree with you now.
“You think it’s getting too weird around here?”
“Absolutely.”
“I didn’t notice.”
“I like it.”
Your mother puts license plates on your underwear? How do you sit?
Interesting. Everyone seems to know about Joyce and what happened.
Funny that it was Becky who abducted at gunpoint, not Joyce.
There is something slightly off kilter about this set up.
I just assumed that since Dorothy was part of the press sent to cover what happened, she intentionally left out Becky from the report so there wouldn’t be any more problems.
That doesn’t seem likely. Also unethical and unneeded.
I assumed Joyce was mentioned and Becky was left unnamed.
There’s also the fact that this is a campus, and gossip could easily spread like wildfire.
It isn’t clear at this point (I think) whether Becky’s housing situation has been resolved at all. It may be that her presence was downplayed by the group to prevent people from questioning what she was doing on campus in the first place.
Becky is acting almost completely unaffected by the whole thing while Joyce is visibly distressed about it. I agree that Becky deserves AT LEAST as much care attention as Joyce, but so far she hasn’t shown any indication that she WANTS that. Becky seems like she has things mostly sorted out at the moment (no idea whether she actually does, but that’s what it looks like). Joyce is acting completely different than her normal self and is obviously extremely unhappy. It makes sense that people are more worried about her right now, because she’s doing things that would worry anybody who knows her.
I think it’s mostly due to the fact that she did pretty much go through a primer when her dad took her out of school. Which Joyce helped her through. After that, she had already altered her perception of her dad, and had changed herself enough to feel comfortable.
When her dad came with the gun, it was painful to force her idea of her dad further down that slope, but easier after having been through her last week.
But Joyce didn’t really have that experience first hand.
She didn’t have the teachings she grew up with turn on her, almost violently.
The closest she got was where her parents came over, and that was her teachings turning on those that she had already been told to hate.
She didn’t have a primer for her old authority figures turning violent against her.
…
That being said, yeah, Becky should be getting some attention, but she seem to be receptive to help. She knows what happens was her dad going out of control, and that who and what she is, is natural and comfortable.
But Joyce… She’s confronting a whole new idea. That her religion can be twisted to violence.
‘That her religion can be twisted to violence.’
This is actually really important to consider in the long run. Yes, we know that Joyce is having a crisis of faith at the moment. As I’ve mentioned before, that’s perfectly justifiable given the rather extraneous circumstances. But think about it. If her crisis of faith doesn’t shake her off completely, it’s entirely possible that she’ll become another Ross. She may actually end up retreating FURTHER into her religion the worse her religion is revealed to be.
Think about it like this. A rat is trapped under a deck with a feral cat during a massive storm. The cat is sleeping, and the rat is terrified of the rain. The rat has three options. It could either venture out into the storm, face the threat of death, and be consumed entirely by the unknown. The rat could also just dig a small hole and sleep there in the HOPES that the feral cat doesn’t find it, and if it does, it isn’t hungry. The final option is to kill the cat using it’s (freakishly) sharp front teeth.
In that scenario, the ‘rat’ is Joyce. The ‘rain’ is the change brought about by her crisis of faith, and the ‘cat’ is her religion. Joyce will either venture out further into her fears and hope that she can overcome them, retreat further back into her religion and hope that it doesn’t turn around on her, or attempt to vanquish her religion, but in the process potentially becoming what she hated.
I look forward to seeing where this goes.
It’s far more likely that she’ll abandon the extremism than double down on it. Remember how horrified she was when she realized her mother was justifying Ross’s armed kidnapping using the same reasoning he was? Her outrage in gender studies class after learning religious organizations actively persecute LGBT people? The speech full of bible quotes she threw at her parents when they told her to stop associating with athiests, just because they found their lack of faith disturbing? She’s eyeballs-deep in a crisis of faith, but she’s still treading water. I’d be surprised if she went full Mary after all that.
Also, Joyce is a reflection of David Willis’s experiences growing up in a fundie household. We probably wouldn’t be here discussing it right now had he chosen to retreat into religion.
I know your comment is insightfull and/or stuff but all I Can think about is the possibly unintentional paraphrasing of star wars.
You raise an excellent point on all counts. Well said.
Not as an end point certainly; but as a temporary and alienating detour causing pain to all parties concerned? Possible.
Doubling down I mean. Fuck threaded comment sections, they’re terrible
Becky had to live with her dad. so I think that that leaves her in a place of…relief? that she doesn’t have to deal with it anymore? not much has shifted for her, she’s probably been living with the fear that her dad might do something for a long time. she’s escaped. whereas for Joyce her struggle is really just beginning.
I keep wondering if Becky has any estranged relatives she could get in touch with. With Ross’s religious views there could be some out there he cut contact with. Of course the problem is finding them.
Another thing to do this weekend when ransacking her home, but probably won’t happen.
Also, Becky’s cheerful attitude towards everything is probably giving others the impression that she’s been shaken, but is probably doing okay all things considered. Meanwhile Joyce is openly showing signs of trauma.
Joyce showed signs of trauma when Dorothy told her that she was an atheist.
media are not allowed to include the name of victims of assault and other crimes. if Roz and Prof. Bean know, it’s from social media and not official media.
Not true. There’s no law against it, at least not in the US,, but most traditional media organizations have practices, if not policy, against it. And sometimes “forget” that info. Media landscape these days is for every question to have to jump through the hoops of the supposedly transparency-encouraging but actually the opposite, public-records request process. The US media actually has no legal.right of.access.that the public itself does not have, but people too willing to go.along with the demonization of the media anana what that means to.their own rights of access.to public information.
* And authorities (missing word) sometimes “forget” that info.
The wored “alleged” is a get-out-of-accountability-free card. Count how many times you hear it in a newscast.
News outlets will hold names back if there are minors involved. Sal wouldn’t have been named in reports of her convenience store robbery, but Ross and Becky would have been named since she’s 18.
I think there’s 2 reasons:
1. People in the college know Joyce, Becky is an outsider.
2. Those who do know Becky know that she’s taking things in her stride, but know that Joyce is clearly experiencing trauma.
Also, people who are not on the inside will assume that Becky is not around anymore, that she has gone off to a homeless shelter or the home of a sympathetic friend or relative*. So they wish her well in abstract, but there isn’t any direct effect on what they should do or not do. Joyce is here, so they need to support her or at least not do anything to give her more problems.
* There no evidence either way about the existence of any of these things, but most people won’t know that.
I agree 100%.
Since the strip with Becky doing the comforting of poor Joyce who was kicking the crap out of Toedad along the road: the road where Toedad had kidnapped his daughter Becky (and her friend Dina) off the campus, smacked her in the car, then wrecked it while trying to (most likely) kill Amazi-girl.
Yup, poor Joyce really had a rough day. (Yes Joyce was almost raped and had her world view stood on end, so she needs compassion, but there is a limit to her world view revolving around her).
Her friend couldn’t used a bit of compassion and hugs from her: and Joyce can’t even ‘see’ her right now.
Too bad for both of them.
I don’t think Leslie know about Becky or I’m pretty sure she would be concerned, too bad she doesn’t know…Becky could use her connections.
Do we actually know that’s what Roz is referring to?
Why would Becky be mentioned in this exchange? Yes, she’s had a bad time, but she’s not relevant to how Roz treats Joyce in a class Becky won’t even be at.
Anyone else accidentally mistake Roz for Robin at first?
Yeah, I was wondering about the suit
Yeah, the suit was unexpected.
Hahaha, what could possibly go wrong.
Ohh, so Roz and Leslie actually do have a deal set up.
I like women in business suits and ties.
I prefer chainmail and boiled leather, but suits will do.
I concur, but on the condition that said chainmail and leather is realistic and protective.
Well, both chainmail and boiled leather exist in reality, and definitely protect the areas of the body they cover, if you catch my drift.
Well, obviously. As nice as toned abs are, a sword through the gut tends to ruin the effect.
I prefer giant mecha.
Has Leslie ever managed to teach a class that didn’t turn into Drama?
I mean, I know it’s actually been weeks, but I like to think that in the classes happening “off camera” the Drama is just happening to other characters.
See that girl with the purple hair in the first panel? Last week she discovered the curly haired girl in front of her is actually her long lost half sister, because her dad had an affair with his secretary, and she kind of wants to get to know her sister, but the affair destroyed her parents’ marriage so it’s all kind of super awkward.
And naturally it all came to light in this class, because everything does. Someday Leslie will write a goddamned book about this place.
The title will be “I Thought This Class Was Supposed to Be Gender Studies, Not Drama”.
“Do you know what Billie is majoring in?”
“Gender Studies, I think.”
“Oh, really? I was thinking… DRAMA.”
“I mean, it’s really the same thing at this school.”
“Indiana:The overly dramatic place” by L. B.
do you think she’s only after robin for her drama tag??
A better question is whether she’s ever taught a class while playing Drama.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp_H2fUlB2c
So RobinXLeslie is a thing in this universe also? A universal ship?
Certainly if you ask Leslie.
Metaphysics itself can’t end this OTP/
Who the fuck where’s a pantsuit to a lecture?
Wow that is the wrong “wears”, how do you even make a typo like that?
Really bad speach to text software?
Now, we only see her from the waist up. maybe she didn’t wear pants and kept it casual.
The twist is that she’s actually wearing pantsuit-patterned pajamas.
It’s Pajamajeans 2.0!
They actually have this.
I am enjoying imagining ghost rider lecturing some sort of sentient pantsuit.
i would bet that, like a previous outfit of hers, that is actually a mini-skirt with a suit top ensemble.
She’s a college student.
Two little words: laundry day.
Between Robin and the Dean, it was strongly suggested that Roz display a little more decorum. Dressing in a more conservative manner (business casual) might be her way of doing this.
tell her to put on pants then
Surely not even Roz would go to class dressed like that.
Any more than Joyce would go to class dressed like this.
I like that drawing for reasons.
Wait, there’s a deviantart with more drawings of a similar flavor? Hello.
I’ve seen people go to class in less than that. And anyway, she’s sharing this look with Billie! Though Billie wasn’t wearing a suit jacket and tie.
I have gone to class in similar. (My shorts were longer, but not by much.)
Ah, thank you…I was sure I remembered seeing her in the jacket without pants, but couldn’t remember where…I should have known it was one of your character design posts.
She showed up in that outfit in the recent Slipshine too. In the public walking around part of it. Same shirt & tie, but no jacket.
Heh, combining your post with Willis’s makes me think she really is just wearing the suit top and short shorts in a “yes, yes, decorum… *wink*” way.
Ooh, always love Gender Studies. Mostly because I love Leslie. The one shining beacon of reason and safety in a school that sorely lacks it.
…
Man, now that I’ve said that, Leslie’s gonna end up getting tangled up in the most painful, dysfunctional storylines of the entire comic, isn’t she?
She might be safe, given she got her fill of that in Dumbiverse.
Lol, optimist.
and like most of the other characters, that reason cracks and fails in the face of what her heart (and… other glands) want(s).
I do like her resignation that yup, go ahead and do that, Roz.
Panel 3 makes me think of an old Merrie Melodies cartoon, “The Crackpot Quail.”
I’m interested to see what they discuss in this Gender Studies class. Maybe Becky will sit on this one.
Come for the discussions, stay for the inevitable drama.
Roz is cool enough that even though Lez isn’t buddy-buddy with her, she still wants her to get some of The Big D.
.
.
.
.
The D stands for DeSanto. And Robin is (probably) the oldest sister.
I dunno, I kinda got a hostile vibe from the way Roz said that. As in, “you’re not friendly with me but you still are wanting me to bring my sister in here so you can ogle her”
But I dunno, I could be reading that wrong.
Roz laid into Joyce really harshly for her views, and Leslie reprimanded her for it, stating that was beyond the discussion.
However, Joyce had really given Roz a hard time about her way of life also, I did wonder why she wasn’t called out on that.
When Leslie walked in on that, Roz and Joyce were already laying into each other pretty loudly; Leslie didn’t see who started it, and missed most of Joyce’s worst comments. What Leslie did do was stop the argument, not least because she had her special guests coming in. http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/continue/
Stopping the argument is what she tried to do the next time too; it just didn’t take on that occasion.
Yeah, Leslie tries to distract and transition from arguments. A large part of why things went completely off the rails and Leslie is still a little annoyed is that Roz refused to stop badgering a fellow student after telling her to knock it off multiple times.
And another big part of why Leslie might be a little affected is that the topic they have been trying to cover is a really personal one for Leslie. She’s directly impacted by homophobic oppression in a major way and has had to deal with her own version of her “sweet lesbian facts”, so having that class where she showed some vulnerability in disclosing her past completely devolve into chaos probably stung a bit more than normal and has her praying for the week to be over so she can fully reset.
Almost, but not quite. In this episode, it’s Roz who goes after Joyce, who was giving Joe a hard time in the previous episode.
Happy new year to rozzers and joycers alike. (It’s crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide.)
Translation available upon request.
Translation?
For the Brit-slang.
“It’s crackers (foolish, crazy, stupid) to slip a rozzer (give a policeman) the dropsy (bribe, payoff) in snide (counterfeit money).”
Wahnsinn ist es, einen Polizisten mit falschem Geld zu bestechen.
Because ROZ is a slutty bongo and Joyce is a pure, precious flower that must be empathized and coddled at all times, (and I actually wrote bongo not have the filter change it) Seriously, the discussion on the comic the last time this popped up irked me.
Roz yelled at a biggot that was telling someone they were bad for not living the life style she wanted, after she planned to convert them from their religion and had someone assault them…
Joyce pretty much called Roz a slut, and as said had Joe Assaulted, but people sympathize and agree with Joyce (Joyce’s best friend gets kidnapped, everyone comforts and focuses on Joyce)
I don’t get why Joyce is a precious delicate thing that needs to be understood, and Roz is a jerkity jerk for being loud in class…
Seconded. I love Leslie, but she’s being a total bongo about this. Roz has proven she is willing to defend her worldview, not flash she’s evil and wants people to suffer. Les is playing favorites.
Autocorrect mangled this post. “Flash” should have been “that,” and “bongo” should have been something way less funny. (I’m going to start calling people total bongos now.)
Not really. Leslie is in charge of a classroom. If Roz wants to yell at the fundie she can do it on her blog.
It’s not autocorrect, these comments censor that particular word with ‘bongo.’
The first interaction in class, where Joyce is babbling about precious flowers, Roz is at least justified. Joyce was definitely in the wrong in that exchange. But she stopped when Leslie entered and derailed the argument.
The second time, Roz tore into Joyce when, and apparently because, Joyce realized how bad the church was to gay people. That kind of awakening and change of view is rare and hard to bring about. Attacking someone in the middle of it is a real good way to bring the defenses back up and shove them back into denial.
And of course, she didn’t stop when Leslie told her to.
Roz isn’t evil. I like her. But she was way out of line there. Just like Joyce was in the earlier case.
She was out of line, but people REALLLY hate on Roz for being loud and judgemental, but JOYCE is okay b/c she was just a poor brainwashed fundie, it’s okay if she calls people sluts, or talks down to them for their beliefs?????
I 108% agree with you here. People getting on the Roz hate train whilst Joyce is flawless and perfect completely rubs me up the wrong way. I think last time someone tried to say that Roz only gave the card to antagonize Joyce, or something?
Why is Roz dressed so formally? Job Interview?
Some people do that because they like to! There were a couple of guys in my high school who came to school in, like, three piece suits. It was just their style.
I think she’s worn a similar sort of style before (not sure about the jacket, but definitely a tie and collared shirt with shorts), so it’s probably just something she does.
See word of god above how “formally” dressed she really is!
Kids going back to dressing for a higher education, maybe.
My HS and college had dress codes. No shorts, no t-shirts, no jeans, no purple mohawks
Kind of funny Plasma. Back when I was in school, anyone dressing like 99 of the DoA in class would have elicited the “What in the heck are those guys wearing to class?”
And the wheel spins round and round.
So the dress code was fine with naturism?
so, green mohawk works ?
drat no edit, should of been 99%
Meanwhile, all the students walking into class just out of view in the last few panes: “Wait, our teacher wants to what at the congresswoman?”
Doesn’t seem like the most private of conversations, is what I’m saying.
they probably all saw the oogling last time she came pay a visit.
Yeah. Les wasn’t exactly subtle on the panty-dampening effect Robin was having on her.
Which seems foolish, since if Robin is a right wing politician there can’t be much future in such a relationship.
But that that’s love for you. Or lust anyway.
From her brief appearance, and applying what we know of Robin from SP!, I figure she just got into politics as a way to gain some power and notoriety, and doesn’t actually believe a word she’s saying.
That makes her all the more loathsome.
So Les being attracted to Robins despite her terrible actions is a multiversal constant.
Roz is dressed very formally today! I wonder what’s up?
Camera angle
For a tiny fraction of a second, I thought I’d accidentally clicked on an old bookmark for Shortpacked!, and there had been an update. Ah, what a beautiful, impossible world that would have been.
Honestly, I’m really proud of Roz here. She’s owning her behavior and the social cost it has had with her teacher and her reputation. And she even shows awareness of the personality trait that led to her being inappropriate in the first place. It’s clear that Roz has introspected a bit since the last encounter and is a little bit hurt that Leslie doesn’t trust her to learn from said mistake.
And she’s showing a lot of empathy towards Joyce, recognizing the position she’s in and the stuff she’s been through and absolutely appalled at the idea of ragging on her while she’s dealing with all that.
As she says, she’s passionate and that can lead her to bad places, but she’s a good kid who tries to better herself and honestly, that does matter for a lot even if she’s got a lot of work to do to fully return to her teacher’s good graces.
Yeah, I agree. This is almost an apology. Factor in their interaction at the party (that leslie doesn’t know about) and I think Roz and Joyce are pretty cool with each other.
And now back to your regularly scheduled drama.
“I’m passionate, not a monster”
*turns to camera and winks* “unless you count in bed”
So let’s see if I get it right what Roz just said:
“Sorry, I realize there are borders I shouldn’t cross. Would my hot sister work as a peace offering?”
Cue (possibly postcoital) drama with her sister after some particularly odious political compromise.
I better say this now than later( ‘cuz I’m sure I’ll forget it):Well ,this wasn’t a calm year if I can say and I hope the coming one will be better for all the people around the world. I wish you all people a Happy New Year! Bonne année! Frohes neues Jahr! Felice anno nuovo! Feliz año nuevo! S novim godom!
I hope you’ll have a good time partying or spending it with your familly/friends!
YES.
This is going to be my 5evah ship. ;;;;;;;;;;
EVEN MY ICON SHIPS IT.
Roz dresses a lot more conservatively in the DOA verse I’ve noticed~
I honestly do want Roz to become a more prominent character. It’d be great to see her outside Gender Studies.
Yeah, supposedly we’re about to enter into a more Mary focused bit, so hopefully we’ll get to see a little more of Roz in the dorms trying to counter Mary’s bullshit.
That would actually be pretty cool to touch upon. We haven’t seen a lot of the two interacting.
It looks like we’re going to see more of Carla interacting with Amber in the coming months too, so win all around.
Also total pipedream; more Sayid please!
Definitely will throw down a vote for that. Maybe even a Sayid flirting with Ethan and Ethan being unsure if he wants to go for it or not.
I didn’t know how much I wanted this until now.
I’ve been thinking of Roz’s formal dress and I’m wondering if she’s trying to emulate how Robin dresses when on ‘official duties’. Occasionally I got the impression in Shortpacked that, no matter how obnoxious Roz could be, she idolised Robin in many ways and wanted to be like her.
i kinda just want joyce to settle down and have a big long embarrassing cry with like. snotbuckets and piles of tissues. because it sucks and everything sucks and it doesn’t get easier you just learn how to deal with it.
and um. i really enjoy how complicated this drama is and how people are just. well-intentioned but still conflicty here. it’s great.
Slightly OT, but I was just looking at this preview panel for tomorrow’s DoA.
http://dumbingofage.tumblr.com/post/128742011102/january-1-2016
I realized that Joe is almost definitely entering the Gender Studies Class here, as he gestures toward his genitals. All that’s missing is his “Classy” shirt.
2016 is (almost) upon us, and in some parts of the world, it’s already 2016. The year is about to change, but Joe never will.
Like Randy, he is Eternal.
Gloss on my lips, man on my hips.
I uh. I mean woman.
Just curious — what exactly are they studying in “Gender Studies”? I looked up Gender Studies in an IU class catalog and I would assume that Leslie’s course is analogous to real-life G600: Concepts of Gender. But how the heck do you teach something like that — what sort of textbook would you use, for example? — and other than class attendance/participation (and possible essay or written assignments), how would you grade a course like this?
I think Roz is going to be in for a surprise. Joyce is ready to explode and I don’t think it will take much for her to let rip at this stage.
Hey, when you’ve been walking through the desert for as long as she has the thirst takes priority over some personal morals.
She should have named the horse before it ran off.
+1