This month’s second bonus strip is over at the Dumbing of Age Patreon! It’s about Dina and spelling.
think long and hard about that short description before you “um actually” me based on a one-panel preview
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This month’s second bonus strip is over at the Dumbing of Age Patreon! It’s about Dina and spelling.
think long and hard about that short description before you “um actually” me based on a one-panel preview
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Happy new year!
Damn, beat me to it.
Happy new year.
Everyone ready for the year Trump gets elected President?
(No, I don’t actually support him, and I hope dearly this is just a joke.)
HA!
If that happens, it’s time to move to Canada.
You can keep all of those people who moved to Canada after Obama was elected company.
nah just start speaking spanish randomly in public, you can get a free ride south of the border if he’s president
What if my language resembles spanish/italian. Do I also get a free ride? Though I wouldn’t mind a free ride to Mexico.
…is glad to be living in the UK.
At least Alan Sugar (our nearest equivalent of Trump) can never become PM. He’s a Lord, which disqualifies him from standing! xD
YAY FOR BEING BRITISH!!!!
You’re going to have to move further than Canada to be out of the blast radius.
do you think mars is far enough
I’m not concerned about blast radius so much as my tax dollars supporting moronically impractical policies. I don’t want to discuss politics here, so I’ll leave it at that.
I’m planning on moving eventually anyway though; I’d just be accelerating my schedule.
Anyone in the UK or Australia willing to take in a refugee family from Texas if Trump or Cruz become president?? Please?
I’m so sick of being the freakish hippie leper in my neighborhood/community because we’re mostly Social Democrat (me much more on the “social” side than my husband) Atheists that believe in equality and acceptance.
The UK isn’t exactly in great shape at the moment… I’m considering somewhere in Scandinavia before the EU referendum, in case freedom of movement disappears then…
Compared to Texas, it looks like paradise to me. The inmates have taken over the asylum here.
Sorry, a lot of us Brits actually want our country to have LESS immigrants than it currently does to reduce strain on our economy and our job market. :/
FEWER immigrants. Not “less.”
Oh, yeah. Sorry, I don’t generally make the distinction between those words in my head. xD The caps was just for emphasis, not ‘cos I thought I had the right word. I just meant that Britain wants fewer immigrants, not more.
(Hang on…fewer is to more, as less is to….more? Or is it fewer/many, less/much? It’s not really something I’ve thought about very often…)
What if I look white? Am I welcome then? Because my Latina status changes depending on how you pronounce my last name.
Not an English speaker here, but I think “less” is “a smaller quantity of” something, while “fewer” is “a smaller number of” somethings.
So, “fewer immigrants” / “less immigration”.
(This forum screams for an edit button -_-)
” LESS immigrants than it currently does to reduce strain on our economy and our job market. :/”
Theres little to no correlation though. Immigrants typically add to the labor pool – but they also add demand for products.
http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/6399/economics/impact-of-immigration-on-uk-economy/
(or google for other studies – the idea of immigration making unemployment worse is a assumption that doesnt seem proved by any actual statistics)
The average immigrant also, incidentally, is also less likely to receive benefits then native borns.
Theres a lot of myths about immigration in the UK sadly.
Yeah, ex-uk resident myself.
Its sad to see my former home go downhill.
In the US (eventually) they decided “ok, yeah, the NSA did go too far”
In the UK, literally, the GCHQ powers are being expanded.
Also, internet filters all ISPs have to have. – currently can be disabled by the the end user, but given the government also made lots of porn illegal (including, humorously anything with spanking), its only a small step to say “well, as its illegal,those internet filters should be mandatory”
Oh, and those filters? Also block VPNs and plenty of things wayyyyyy outside anything even to do with porn. Ïts classic “think of the children!!!” power grabs ontop of “think of the terrorists!!” power grabs.
Sorry, getting offtopic, but it scares me how much the UK government is getting away with, and the population as a whole apparently doesn’t care. 🙁
That’s the scary lesson our leaders (USA) are learning as well. Just keep the bread & circuses going and even the people who DO care will be ignored.
Yep. Here in Texas, and in many other places in the States, everyone screams about how they want smaller government, the government to butt out of people’s personal lives and on and on. Except in practice the mostly-Fundamentalist, very Evangelical Christians and the politicians that pander to them are pushing through astounding laws that limit rights guaranteed by the Supreme Court because of the pervasive and dangerous myth that “this is a Christian nation.” Our very, very secular government has become nearly completely controlled by Evangelical Christian agendas and the NRA.
My state’s government is inching closer and closer to being a theocracy where anyone that is not lily-white, wealthy, fundamentalist Evangelical Christian and male is a second-class citizen every single year.
And in all seriousness, I don’t have the means to get the hell out, otherwise I would have long, long ago.
How do they feel about dead-pig head-fucking porn?
Have an internet Sir/Ma’am/Respectful-pronoun-of-your-choice
Gasp, an atheist in Texas? How have you managed to avoid being run out of the state already?
If Hillary and the Donald get nominated, I’m not even waiting for the general election before I move to Canada. (Disclaimer: I’m not actually moving to Canada. Probably.) Too bad most of the other major party alternatives are just slightly different flavors of toxic clowns.
Oh, I don’t think there will be a Canada for long after that happens.
Or much of anything else, really.
Take off, eh?
Don’t worry, the Zorgax will abduct Trump before he can be elected. They want the Zignorbian Brain Squirrel that masquerades as his hair back.
They’ll leave an alien shapeshifter to mask his disappearance, only he turns out to be really great at his job.
That would make a funny story… “Oh no! The President was replaced by an alien doppleganger! *capture alien, return original President* “Man this guy sucks…”.
Don’t blame me, I voted for Kodos!
Don’t blame me, I voted for Kodos!
If Trump makes President, my passport is in good order. I will apply for Canadian citizenship. That’s almost joking.
I hope he is nominated as the Republican candidate.
But yeah, not for the win.
Way back in January when this was still funny. Now we are looking a the kobayashi maru of elections.
Happy new year.
I want a new
duckdick[insert link to Weird Al on YouTube that the forum only likes maybe 20% of the time I try to link here]
[[happy new rear]]
That’s one of many Weird Al songs that I didn’t know was a parody until years after the fact.
Always figured it for an original song, until I heard the Huey Lewis version and it kind of blew my mind.
When I first heard the Huey version, I thought They can’t really be singing about THIS on the radio! so yeah, how can you think it ISN’T a gag.
Of course, one of the DJs on the radio station I used to listen do back then did his own filk version: I Wanna New TRUCK.
Less obvious is that the theme song from Ghostbusters is a total ripoff of the Huey Lewis song. They even got sued over it. Don’t think it was successful though, but it’s pretty obvious when you listen to them back to back.
Yes, it was successful.
In his defense, he was asked to make the song sound like Huey Lewis.
Bons nénés !
What a wonderful way to start off the new year
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
New year, new unit, same old shenanigans.
Happy New Year!
Welp, start as you mean to go on, eh Joycy? ;D
Joyce rings in the New Year with a Louis C.K. impression! 😉
I would be utterly flabbergasted if she knows who that is.
Hey, she’s looking at dicks on her phone. All bets are off!
She has learned a lot in the past week.
Joyce with the sick burn!
See, an occasional life-or-death situation is good for the development of character!
So what you’re saying is misery builds character?
Calvin’s dad was right!
Roughens the edges, leaves a few scars.
He’ll need to apply aome cold water to the affected area.
Epic burn, Joyce!
ReJoyce!
Oh hi Joe, I see we’re continuing the trend of you being the absolute worst thing to ever happen in human history.
Meh. He’s not Ryan, Ross, or Blaine. (Who I now rename Raine, so that the worst people ever can be the 3 Rs.)
And thats just this strip, if you factor in dictators and mass murderers (that existed in real life and so I assume existed in the dumbiverse) he doesn’t even come close.
Ritler, Ralin, and Rol Rot…
I’m beginning to sound like Scooby Doo….
You’d never be able to figure out if you’re referencing Cuba or Scooby’s best buddy from another dimension, Astro.
Don’t forget Russolini,Rancisco Ranco,Ralazar(Portugal)
Don’t you mean “Rooby Roo”?
“Jinkies! It was old man Stalin all along!”
“And I would have gotten away with it if it weren’t for you meddling kids!”
*The Mystery Gang is then sent to the gulags*
Turns out Hitler was actually just a disgruntled old janitor with a wig and fake moustache.
And if you factor in other fictional characters, I’m pretty sure biblical god is worse.
Rayne already has a comic gig. http://www.leasticoulddo.com/
That Rayne is ahead of Joe in the ‘worst person ever’ contest, too.
Oh yeah he’s like Joe but with even less shame.
One of my favourite fictional characters is named Raine. I’m not sure if I should be offended.
Congratulations on finding/making the best gravatr possible.
Thank you. It is the Dina image from the cast page, edited to be wearing a TARDIS beanie.
And now no one can complain too much if I keep making obscure DW references. xD
Tales?
Symphonia-five! 😀
So those guys are all just a bunch of total Rs’s? (…arses?)
Oh come on, Ross wasn’t all that bad, he ended up with Rachel in the final episode.
Amber’s father and Toedad are just looking at you and are shaking their heads.
It’s telling that Joe’s points of comparison are two abusive parents and a rapist.
…You’re the one who offered ‘worst thing in human history’. Of course the comparison is going to go to the worst three people in the comic. He’s also not as bad as the Wilcoxen, Linda, Joyce’s parents, and many others. He’s annoying. He’s less annoying than Faz, just actually around. I mean really, you’re saying he’s /actively being the worst/ for a penis joke, and he’s frankly right in the last panel – Joyce’s joke does in fact rely on him sleeping around.
It’s a bit of a bad comparison for this, but the dude is running into a conversation between the lesbian teacher and a girl who has made it very clear that she wants nothing to do with him and feels uncomfortable with his presence, by suggesting that everyone jump his bone. He’s not as much an absolute monster as any of that, but he is sexually harassing a bunch of people including a girl who had a gun pointed at her not long ago.
And having a gun pointed at you is relevant to this how?
Not to mention a casual dick joke isn’t harassment. If it feels like it is, sed person needs to grow a thicker skin or a sense of humor.
Thank heavens we’ve decided that sexual harassment is okay in small enough doses.
Shit, if Joe was saying this to Walky, Danny, hell maybe even Dorothy since they have an established relationship and Dorothy knows how to actually deal with him, it wouldn’t be that big a deal beyond just some eye rolling annoyance. He’s harassing someone he knows wants nothing to do with him, knows she’s just been through a violent, traumatic incident, and knows that talking about sex is something that pisses her off.
Joe’s a shithead.
He wasn’t talking directly to Joyce. She just happened to be there. I don’t think Joe thinks overly much about the complex reactions different people can have to his rather simple joke. Nor should he be forced to. If Joyce has a problem with it, it is for her to deal with. Plus, she really doesn’t need this protective blanket people seem to want to put on her – she very clearly showed she can take care of it by herself. Joyce isn’t as weak as some tend to think of her as.
Not thinking about his words and the effect they might have on people is no excuse for him to be a raging dickhead.
Also, “it was just a joke, grow a thicker skin” has been used against women that express their discomfort with sexual harassment, or just general harassment, for decades. Time for that sorry excuse to go the way of the dinosaur.
It’s not her fault for being offended and made to feel uncomfortable. It’s *his* fault for being wildly inappropriate.
“It’s not her fault for being offended and made to feel uncom
fortable.” – So lacks responsibility for how she feels about things? Certainly not something we choose to feel one way or another about, but it it distinctly up to Joyce how she takes what’s happening around her.
I disagree on the ‘wildly’ part since not everyone minds – some even enjoy it. But fair enough, some mind and he should show some restraint as such. Now if only Joyce would talk to him and explain this so Joe actually understands the ramifications of his actions. But no one will. Not in a way he’d understand at least. He’ll figure it out on his own eventually – but in the mean time he’s not doing it to hurt people, he’s just making a bad joke.
As for thicker skin – you misunderstand me. What I’m saying is that there’s a certain bar that HAS to be acceptable here – and personally I draw it at lack of malice for other people. You have to make room for jokes and actual flirting or we’d be a sad and extinct species by now.
Plus Joe’s not saying this towards Joyce – she’s incidental at best. This isn’t directed at her so this should have even /less/ of an impact on her. As a matter of fact, I’d say Joyce is verbally slapping Joe because she had a bad week, not because of anything he sed to her. She just wanted to vent. How is this better then his crass joke? She’s willfully lowered herself to the same field as him and beat him in a honorable verbal joust. I see nothing unresolved.
She’s fine – as fine as she was when she entered, perhaps with less steam even. No one’s being hurt here.
Having a gun pointed at you is an incredibly stressful and traumatising situation and anyone with empathy should know not to antagonize said traumatised person immediately after. More than that, Joe is directing said dick joke at two people he knows damn well have no interest in his dick, which is just fucking obnoxious.
Time passes. There’s a point where one has to move on. Not to mention I have no clue when exactly this is time-wise after ‘the incident’.
Joe’s directing his dick joke at the class. The class simply happens to have Joyce in it.
In real life ofc this wouldn’t be appropriate… but… comic (not because of Joyce – Joe doesn’t owe her anything, but because you don’t make dick jokes in class).
But yes, he’s being obnoxious. Not really a crime though.
1.) The timeskip was what…four, five days? She’s still clearly showing the effects of the incident, as is apparent to other characters. 2.) Funny how now it’s inappropriate, as you were previously saying the people objecting to it were oversensitive etc. 3.) I’m not sure where anyone was saying it was a crime? I only see people saying Joe’s being a jerk.
Shiro-
We went from Monday to Friday of the same week.
So it’s been 4 days. She’s missed one class (Wednesday). The one on Monday having been cancelled owing to the lockdown.
So with regards to Grimdark’s comments, well… I would love to live in a magical world where people get over traumatic events in 4 days. Sounds awesome.
Yeah, Ross kidnapped Becky on Monday. It’s been said repeatedly that the lockdown happened Monday.
They have this class 3 times a week meaning it’s a MWF class, Joyce was told to take Wednesday’s class off by Leslie and it’s now Friday.
Joyce had a gun pointed at her, her best friend kidnapped by the madman with a gun, several other friends hurt and more friends where Joyce spent possible hours wondering *if* they were hurt.
Not only that but she’s suffering from a massive crisis of faith, and that’s got to be extremely traumatizing when you feel your faith is the biggest piece of your identity (hell, my faith was just a medium-to-small sized piece of my identity and it took me years to come to terms with things after my initial crisis of faith, and at times in those years it was a very traumatizing and difficult process.) and what makes you you.
If you can get over anything that traumatizing, something that shatters all your previous conceptions of who you are and what the universe is, in 4 days, you either have superhuman coping skills or have some mental illness/disorder that leaves you mostly void of emotion and/or empathy.
I got exactly three days off work to grieve/get over it when my mother died back at the end of August. And that’s only because I had been working there for more than a year and qualified for FMLA.
Bicycle Bill-
Yeah. Capitalism is pretty shit, isn’t it?
“I’m not sure where anyone was saying it was a crime?” – Words like sexual harassment make this out to be a crime?
“I only see people saying Joe’s being a jerk.” – I fully agree with this statement. He is. But he’s simply being insensitive – a far cry from something that can hurting Joyce. If anything, it did her good to verbally put him down.
As stated by others, she’s not his ‘target’. He’s not making advances towards her. He’s making a stupid joke to a class of people. There’s a very important distinction here. Heck, besides lack of intent to harm, Joe didn’t even aim for her /at all/. She simply had a bad week and is sensitive. This makes him slow, but not a predator.
I’m even pretty sure if she’d tell him what the problem is – if she even sees it as such – he’d apologize because Joe’s not a doubebag. He’s a bro, sure, but not of the evil kind.
This.
This is sexual harassment. He’s not history’s greatest monster. He’s not a rapist or a would-be child murderer or an abusive dad. But this is crossing a major line and by doing this he’s undercut his one saving grace this comic.
So far this comic, we’ve always been able to fall back on one defense of his inappropriate PUA behavior and that is his supposed good practices on consent. Evidenced by letting people’s yeses stand as yeses and people’s noes stand as noes. A very simple understanding of consent but miles above a lot of boys of that age group.
And sure, he may wait until his target is not only pointedly ignoring him but straight up yelling in his face to leave them alone and he may keep flirting with them after this while he’s making his big show of withdrawing his creepy skeezy hit-on, but at least he left people out of his creep-show behavior if they wanted nothing to do with him:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-4/01-the-only-dope-for-me-is-you/harness/
But here? That is proved to be a complete fiction. No one in comic has more communicated that they want nothing to do with Joe more than Joyce. Joyce has paid a man to beat him up to communicate the extent of her no. She had Becky specifically not invite him to her party in order to communicate how unsafe he made her feel.
Even pre-new-trauma she wanted less than zero to do with him and his shit. And yet… here he is, when she’s clearly taking off a class owing to some major trauma, somewhat preceded by his last inappropriate outburst of dehumanization and dismissal no less, just straight up sexually harassing her.
And not just harassing her a little. Nope, full on proposition, hands pointing to junk and asking for approval and response until she finally gives him her half-hearted fuck off.
That is not okay. That is so not okay.
He’s not the worst thing in the world. He’s not a rapist*. He’s not a dictator, but he’s nowhere as decent as we were lead to believe him to be and his actions have risen from “inappropriate distraction” to “his fellow students would have a decent argument if they wanted to submit a case arguing he’s disrupting the classes and creating an unsafe learning environment”.
*He’s “not a rapist”, but he’s also been shown to have… somewhat flexible ideas on “acquiring” consent. For instance, he’s been shown to think that alcohol is lubricant for consent to certain activities and is willing to go into encounters with false pretenses in order to try to acquire what he wants (which is one of the major reasons Joyce hates him so much). He is also way more cognizant and loud on the subject of respecting yeses than he is about respecting noes or reasons for noes. Which makes him… I would argue more dangerous than he might otherwise believe himself to be on the issue of consent.
So. Much. This.
Wonderfully said.
Joe’s joke was not directed at Joyce. It was directed at the class.
He was interjecting in to a conversation that was specifically between Joyce and Leslie. Because of that the comment was directed at either one or both of them. And seeing as he was facing in Joyce’s general direction, if he was directing it at just one, I doubt it was Leslie.
Also, even if he was directing this comment to the whole class (or at least to everyone in the classroom at that moment) how does that mean it was NOT directed at Joyce? Joyce is a member of the class and was in the classroom at the time. So either way, his comment was directed at Joyce. Just because it was directed at her along with the other women in the classroom at the time (because we *know* this comment wasn’t directed at the men in the class. Which is also why his comment wasn’t to “the whole class.”) doesn’t mean it wasn’t directed at her. That’s ridiculous.
And any way you slice it–directed at Leslie and Joyce, directed at Joyce alone, directed at all the women in class, directed at the whole class– it’s still wildly inappropriate. It’s inappropriate in any class with any teacher in that school. But since Joyce has repeatedly told Joe to leave her alone, that his sexual wisecracks make her uncomfortable (at best), and has sent quite obvious signals that she doesn’t feel safe and/or comfortable around him, his derailment of a conversation between Joyce and Leslie with such a joke was even more inappropriate and leaps over the line in to sexual harassment.
“But since Joyce has repeatedly told Joe to leave her alone, that his sexual wisecracks make her uncomfortable (at best), and has sent quite obvious signals that she doesn’t feel safe and/or comfortable around him, his derailment of a conversation between Joyce and Leslie with such a joke was even more inappropriate and leaps over the line in to sexual harassment.”
Damn, you put it better here than I possibly could have.
And that really cuts to the heart of it. Joyce has told him no repeatedly. Joyce has communicated that she finds his sexual wisecracks uncomfortable. Joyce has communicated that she straight up doesn’t feel safe around him.
And yet here we are.
“Also, even if he was directing this comment to the whole class (or at least to everyone in the classroom at that moment) how does that mean it was NOT directed at Joyce? ”
umm…Theres a world of difference between specifically singling someone out, and addressing a whole group of people.
In this case, its the difference between a inappropriate joke, and harassment.
Its also not a sexual wisecrack at anyone’s expense, nor a unwanted advance. Its a “hah hah that word can also mean penis”. You dont even know how much of the prior conversation he heard.
He walked in, heard a opportunity for a dick joke, and made one. Thoughtless, maybe, but not harassment – not even remotely close.
When a teacher talks to students in a classroom setting, that is by default a public conversation open to the class.
And yes, this comment *was* directed at the whole class. Not only the women were meant to laugh at that joke. That said, Joe’s bisexuality would have no bearing here. The point is that Joe’s words were an attempt to help shift the public conversation through his particular brand of humor.
Why does this make a difference you ask? Because Joe is
a) Not making a sexual advance towards Joyce.
b)
By the standards you describe, once any lady rejected Joe’s advances, Joe would automatically be guilty of sexual harassment by making a joke about having sex with him to any room, in any room, regardless of the number of people he was addressing, just because that one lady happened to be there.
Was Joe’s joke inappropriate? Maybe; that’s a subjective social values judgment. Sexual harassment? That’s a legal question. No, not even a whiff.
Well crap, that’s what I get for not rereading the comment before I post it:
*Para. 3 amendment*
Why does this make a difference you ask? Because Joe not making a sexual advance towards Joyce. Joyce just happens to be in the room where he is making sexual advances towards other people.
just noticed something. Seems like Joe only “respects” no when it is accompanied by violence or the threat thereof. He only broke off the date with Joyce after she got Mike to punch him in the face. And from your Sarah link and the strip directly before that one (wherein Joyce the-previously-violent makes it pretty clear she’s ready to defend Sarah from him) where Sarah’s reactions to Joe’s advances make it pretty clear she’s violently opposed to the idea of him hitting on her which is what makes him stop.
So I guess no only means no to Joe if it’s accompanied by a punch to the face or being the cranky friend of someone who previously caused you to get punched in the face.
Yup. Which really puts a lie to his supposed “good consent practices”. If a woman needs to threaten violence against your tall and muscular frame in order to get you to back off, that’s not really the same thing as respecting all noes and really not the same thing as waiting to hear a yes first.
Honestly, Roz has been shown to be way more respectful in her sex hunting. She, like Joe, is very sexual and very forward, but she brings it out as an invitation, quickly gives a free pass if they don’t look interested, even if they haven’t said no, specifically, and leaves an open invitation in cases of maybes rather than pushing it on them.
And it’s because Roz gets consent way better than Joe does.
Wonder how long Joyce getting a gun pointed at her, and her friend actually being the one threatened by her own kidnapping father….can that be milked.
Getting a gun pointed at you and not being sure the person holding it won’t shoot IS traumatic. Even if something arguably more traumatic happened to someone close to her, it is still fucking traumatic.
Saying that Joyce is “milking it” because she only had a gun pointed at her by a lunatic while her best friend got kidnapped by said lunatic is offensive beyond any words I possess right now.
Saying that is the equivalent of saying that no one has the right to feel traumatized or distressed by an event so long as someone else has it worse. I personally have a debilitating neuromuscular disease and possibly an autoimmune one too. When I’m having trouble coping, I’ve been told before that I should “suck it up” because “at least it’s not MS/Parkinson’s/*insert any debilitating, degenerative neuromuscular or autoimmune disease that’s not mine” or “at least it’s not fatal.”
Saying things like that is NOT okay. Dismissing people’s feelings like that is NOT okay. Implying that if someone is feeling or acting traumatized by something traumatic that they are exaggerating or faking in order to get special treatment simply because someone else has it worse than them is obscenely offensive on so, so, so many levels.
Bad choice of words there, unique. That’s like asking how long someone who broke their leg can “milk” a temporary handicapped parking permit.
You’d be surprised how often almost that exact scenario happens.
My disabilities are mostly invisible (only really visible if I use my cane or wheelchair, and often it doesn’t really count as making it visible because you can’t physically see any thing wrong with my body that would cause me to need those aids.) and I’ve had people berate me in parking lots and in stores over it.
I most often get accused of two things:
1) that I’m illegally “borrowing” my grandpa’s (why do they always say “grandpa” or “granddad”? Why not grandma or dad or mom or sibling or aunt or uncle or friend?) handicapped placard so that I don’t have to walk my lazy butt as far to get to the store
2) that I somehow faked being disabled so well that I convinced a doctor to give me a handicapped parking placard, and that I now mostly sit on my ass in my mansion, eating bon-bons and and burning $100 bills that the government gives me in stacks, hand-over-fist because I qualify for disability payments.
And I’m by far not the only disabled person I know that’s been harassed like that.
I know it can sound ridiculous, that people would harass someone for daring to actually use the handicapped parking placard that they need, but it’s a relatively common event, sadly.
Annie-
*eyes narrow* Of course they do. */eyes narrow*
Bob damnitt, people will look for any excuse to shit on the marginalized, won’t they?
Bob did say temporary, and I’d wager he means it only applies if overdone where medically it’s not an issue anymore. But yeah, perhaps there where better lines you could have used. On the other hand, if there are those that would abuse a system – as I’m sure there are, because humans like doing that, it’s a valid concern. Just not one I’d ever care about one way or the other – I don’t even want to be able to drive.
But seriously, people give you shit for having the gall to… use the spot for the express purpose it’s there for? Wtf, people. Seriously.
Yeah, DV. It sucks. I’ve also had people go off on me for using a cane or wheelchair. I’m only 30 and my legs are clearly not completely paralyzed, so people think that anyone that is not elderly and not paralyzed or similarly obviously disabled is faking for some reason or another. As such, they feel they’re doing society a favor by yelling at people like me or doing things like kicking my cane out from under me (thankfully that’s only happened twice and not in a long time.).
About folks taking advantage, there are people that do. There are people that cheat the system, there’s people that use a relative’s handicap permit when they don’t need it, there’s people that fake illnesses like mine so that they can abuse or sell the same meds that I need on a daily basis just to function. But they are so few and far between that the harassment people like me deal with, the snide comments, the hoops we have to jump through to get the treatments, meds and services we need are not worth it.
It is such a tiny percentage of the population that it doesn’t justify the extra stress and judgement put on people like me.
I’m halfway tempted to just let last panel Becky answer these types of statements from now on:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/unlimited/
I mean, it’s a gun. Pointed at you. Fuck, I still have anxiety and flashbacks just from someone just talking about murdering me, much less from having someone point a gun at my face and then literally fire it a moment later.
Fair enough. Though treating her as if she’s made out of tissue paper won’t help her that much either in the long run.
Wait, why isn’t she getting counseling? I mean over here that’s not a thing that exists (or at least it didn’t when I was in school). But in the US there’s protocols in place in case of such things.
Never mind Joe, not really something that seems to register on her radar in a overly-negative way anyhow – where’s this girl’s counselor?
DV, I don’t know about now, but when I was in college therapy was not something I had access to.
For most of my college years I didn’t have health insurance, and because of that would have had to pay for therapy out of my own pocket. I made minimum wage so paying for something like seeing a therapist several times a week was impossible. For the few months that I did have insurance at the beginning of college, my insurance didn’t cover therapy, so I was in the same boat as when I didn’t have insurance.
My school was fairly small and didn’t have any services like that that I could access. All they could do was give you a list of psychologists, psychiatrists, counsellors and therapists in town, what they specialized in and which insurance companies they accepted.
I’m not sure if IU might have some services Joyce could access or if because she a victim of and witness to a crime like that if the police dept might have services that she’d have access to, but it know that for a lot of people in the US therapy just isn’t attainable.
I have a hard time feeling sympathy for Joyce in the Joyce/Joe equation. Yes, he’s sexually harrassing her, but she also had him beaten. She had him beaten, and while that wouldn’t be okay if she was being sexually harrssed, /he wasn’t/. Where I get my finely tuned sense of irritation going with Joe here, it’s because of /everyone else who’s there/. Well, that and what he’s doing is wrong, even if it’s to Joyce, but.
Not really. It only indicates that your “Worst Thing EVER” meter need a little calibration. There’s at least 10 characters we have met here who are worse human beings than Joe, including Joyce’s parents, Danny’s parents, and of course Danny himself. Joe is merely a little brash and vulgar, but his behavior doesn’t actually harm anyone except possibly himself. The parents cited all are dysfunctional people whose dysfunction spills out all over their children, steeping them in (at best) second-hand misery.
And since Joe has to put up with having Danny as a roommate, I’m willing to cut him a lot of slack, because damn!
More like holders of the title you assigned him. ‘Absolute worst thing to ever happen’ is way out of his league; he’s just rude and often insensitive.
All it says anything about is how completely ridiculous your hyperbole was.
One would think ranking Joe as the “absolute worst thing to ever happen in human history” would make it kind of clear my hyperbole was kinda deliberately ridiculous.
Either way, anytime you talk shit about Joe, it’s always the same Actual Genuine Shit characters he gets compared to. Hooray, Joe’s not a rapist or as evil as an actual abusive parent. He’s such a good egg.
Thing is Joe’s not evil. At all. He’s not bothered and is quite politically incorrect. But he’s not even abrasive. Joe’s butter-toast levels of inoffensive.
He’s a sexual harasser who has repeatedly attempted to derail a class people are paying good money for and has a really engaging teacher because he personally doesn’t want to think about his participation in institutions of oppression and would rather deflect everything to fetishizing lesbians (such as his teacher) and sexually propositioning everyone in the class (so far, Roz has been the only one remotely interested and she hasn’t once found his stunts endearing in class [and Slipshine has not made it seem like Roz has particular use for his mouth in any regard]).
He’s not a good person. He is a drain on their overall experiences and honestly should have long since dropped out of this class if he had no desire to learn a damn thing in it.
Honestly, I wonder if the only reason he hasn’t been outright kicked out of the class is because he’s such a good example of a PUA, social inequalities between men and women regarding sex (he’s permitted, if not encouraged, to be self-confident and proud of his sexual conquests, but I’d bet that at least 90% of the women in the class have been slut-shamed for things like flirting or the clothes they wear), the sort of man for whom “yes means yes, and no means not right now,” the sort that will not respect the boundaries a woman tries to put in place, and so on.
She probably never has to explain these types of guys. She can just say (or imply) “men that think things like what Joe just said…”
Annie-
That is true. There’s nothing like the genuine deal to really illustrate core concepts and deconstruct their toxicity from the inside out.
As far as I’m concerned, Joe falls into the category of “pain in the ass”. To our knowledge, he has never drugged anyone (like Ryan did) or physically overpowered someone in order to get them to bump uglies with him; nor has he has never threatened physical violence to someone (like ToeDad did) — compare that with Joyce who gave Mike carte blanche to physically punch Joe if he got out of line on their ‘date’.
He’s simply a classic example of the old adage, like father like son.
So, being not-a-rapist and not physically violent with women makes him just a “pain in the ass”?
Where is the line where one goes from being a PITA to a sexual harasser? Where is the line where one goes from being just a PITA to being awful and displaying unacceptable behavior? Because from the examples you’ve given, you seem to think that line is rape, attempted rape, and/or physical assault.
And tell me, how is saying “it’s just a case of like father, like son” (or that the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree or that he’s a chip off the old block or whatever) any different from saying “boys will be boys”?
Because to me it sounds like just another of the myriad ways that people dismiss inappropriate and harassing behavior from men and boys, while simultaneously telling women that they just need to just shut their damn mouths and take being sexually harassed* frequently as being a fact of life you must quietly endure, or that it’s attention that compliments you and that you should be grateful for.
*or cat-called, or groped, or grabbed, or called a bongo, a slut, a cock-tease, or being stalked, or constantly pursued despite making it clear that the attention is unwanted, etc, etc. The list could go on all night.
“Where is the line where one goes from being a PITA to a sexual harasser? ”
When you dont get that no means no.
Dick jokes is not sexually advancing on someone.
“*or cat-called, or groped, or grabbed, or called a bongo, a slut, a cock-tease, or being stalked, or constantly pursued despite making it clear that the attention is unwanted, etc, etc. The list could go on all night.”
And has Joe done any of that?
thomas-
Who on frame has been shown to have a louder no than Joyce? Joyce had him beaten up to communicate her no. Joyce had him specifically disinvited to her dorm party to communicate just how unsafe she felt around him.
And yet here we are.
Joe is not even the worst thing Joyce has had to deal with this comic-week.
If I had to deal with Joe on a regular basis I think I’d take my chances with Toedad.
You’d rather skirt with death than deal with an occasional penis joke.
/Listen to yourself/.
Is Joe going to land me in a car chase with a superhero? I think not.
#teamtoe
Will Joe get you in a car chase with a fucking vigilante? No. Because HE WON’T TRY TO KILL YOU FOR BEING CONTAMINATED BY THE HOMOSEXUALS.
For fuck’s sake.
Relax, it’s a freaking joke. Nobody actually, legitimately thinks Joe is the single most terrible person in the comic. He’s just really fucking annoying and I’m expressing that through hyperbole.
Like, Blaine and Toedad showed up and served their roles as hate sinks. Joe just appears every few months to be a pain in the ass.
Since no one here seemed to think that you were speaking with hyperbole, perhaps you might take this as an indicator that you need to work on your delivery.
I choose to believe that I’m blameless and the fault lies with everybody except for me.
^ Sarcasm and hyperbole are hard to identify in text form unless you -really- overdo it. Throw in an eyeroll for good measure. Otherwise you’re just goading people. Considering your bemused avatar I think I’ll choose to believe you’re doing it on purpose and shall discount most other comments you make for it.
“X is the worst thing ever” is the single most overused form of hyperbole ever conceived. I can’t imagine a situation where saying that doesn’t automatically mark it as a statement not to be taken seriously.
:/ Welp, I got your sarcasm and jokes. Of course, the sans avatar probably helped with that, too.
For what it’s worth, I found the comment about Joe not getting you into a car chase with a superhero bit hilarious.
““X is the worst thing ever” is the single most overused form of hyperbole ever conceived.”
I see what you did there.
You have a point, good sir skeleton.
Agreed. Never liked him.
Joe isn’t bad, he’s just thoughtless and narcissistic. That makes him unpleasant to be around almost to the point of being harmful, especially for those who don’t appreciate his behaviour. What I haven’t decided yet is if he doesn’t realise this because he’s dumb or if it’s because he’s just too self-obsessed to think of others.
“Thoughtless” and “narcissistic” usually equates to bad where I’m from.
Joe isn’t the worst. He’s gross, but harmless. If anything, he lightens the mood.
Woah call down satan.
This comment thread escalated quickly.
quick leslie get the first aid kit for some BURN TREATMENT
i hate joe so much
Yeah, since the patreon strip, I’ve been trying to figure out why this bothers me even more than his other douchey trips and I think it’s just a summation of everything wrong with his personality at the moment.
It’s him proving his respect for consent is a lie by propositioning and harassing the one student who least wants any of his shit. It’s him treating a gender studies class like a toilet bowl for him to make inappropriate and gross statements that are discriminatory and dismissive*. It’s him demanding all eyes and all focus on his puerile bullshit so that he can deflect even the slightest awareness of seriousness. It’s him making Leslie want to bury herself deep underground. I mean, he basically set up the last class-ending meltdown and just as Leslie is trying to make sure that everyone can get back into it, he picks on the one person who he knows is the most affected and traumatized by recent stuff. It’s him and his goddamn dick feels**. It’s him putting on this faux-macho PUA shtick and showing zero respect for the women that surround him***. It’s him refusing to grow up and continuing to pretend its high school or middle school and everyone is forced to be here so haha class clown (has anyone laughed with one of his stunts once in this class, if not, then he’s not a class clown, he’s just a rude asshole). It’s him coasting on privilege trusting that as a straight man no one is going to call him out overly much on being a gross bag of dick jokes and sexual entendres.
It’s just everything that makes him in this incarnation a sleazy piece of crap on route to becoming his dad rather than the cool sensitive dude he became in the end in the other universe.
*Part of what sets me off is how all his bullshit hits major pet-peeves for me. And for me, one of the most annoying things I encountered in undergraduate was the fucking douchebros who would refuse to just drop classes that opened up clearly advertising their feminist bent and instead make it their mission to disrupt the class and make it miserable in order to make some sad little anti-feminist statement about how we were all ungrateful b-words to want to focus on the construction of gender and gendered politics.
All the harassing disruptions, all the inappropriate comments on workshop materials, all the rehashed feminism 101 stuff he’d bring up trying to mansplain over everyone else until eventually the teacher either was deft enough to get them to retreat to angry bitter mumbling mode or a petition was signed by the students to have him removed.
It was wasted time in really interesting classes because some asshole couldn’t take even the slightest bit of education about people he hated. And a lot of unnecessary microaggression bullshit.
**Fuck dick feels. Fuck privileging this particular type of cishet male experience for no other reason than that it is privileged in society. Fuck this culture where people who do not belong to that particular subset of that particular identity have to put up with some douchebro spouting unrequested missives from their penis on how hot or not they regard the world. How important their orgasms should be to all of us. And demanding the rest of us to focus on their mighty gonads because clearly their sexual obsessions matter more than the humanity of anyone else.
*** Seriously, he keeps viewing women as props, as tokens in the sex game. As literal numbers to go in his little black book. And yes, I know that’s toxic masculinity in a nutshell, but he refuses to learn or adapt from it. He knows that his teacher is a lesbian, that her life has been impacted in strongly negative ways because of it. He knows that his fellow students have been through bad experiences and he has a month of education on various unfair gender dynamics and expectations. But he’s still skipping out on classes because “fucking a TA should count as gender studies” and pointing to his dick and fetishizing lesbians, and just being a gross perv over and over again. He doesn’t respect his classmates. He wants an audience to the Joe show and would be more than happy if Leslie was to quit teaching them anything else for the rest of the semester.
And it just hits all my buttons with the privilege, the gross crossing of boundaries, the sexism, and the utter wasting of everyone else’s time and money. People are not paying huge amounts of money and attending this class to get daily updates on the state of his dick and how much he thinks of everyone else as porn props. They’re here to learn about gender and gendered relationships.
And frankly, he’s the one who could most use this education and he’s pissing it away because he loves his privilege. He loves taking advantage of the free passes he is given. He loves not thinking about the reality of experiences for anyone else. He loves thinking that consent begins and ends with respecting yeses and not physically forcing someone crying no, no, no to do an activity.
And part of that is he’s afraid of being serious and dealing with serious issues.
But a large part of that last sentence is that he gets to avoid being serious because of said privilege. Because he’s not affected by rape culture or street harassment or anti-LGBT discrimination and so what does he fucking care, right?
And I’m just done with that whole worldview. And I’m really done with Joe. Fuck off fuckboy, the adults are talking.
I like you, you have good thoughts.
FWIW, I think that the Gender Studies class material makes Joe feel deeply uncomfortable. It is requiring him to view sex, sexuality and variant alignment as something other than things for his personal gratification and amusement. Simply put, he isn’t emotionally mature enough to deal with this. Like other class clowns, he responds by attempting to disrupt and derail to prevent too much in-depth discussion because these will push him out of his personal comfort zone.
You see, Joe is actually relatively intelligent. If he’s anything like his Walkyverse counterpart, he’s a borderline-savant when it comes to mechanical and electronic engineering. So, he’s trying to avoid any in-depth discussion that will force him to reconsider his own behaviour and attitudes to sex too deeply.
Selfish? Yes. Immature? Yes. A monster? No, just very, very human.
I say this with all the gentleness I can muster: there are some facets of humanity that should not be encouraged or accommodated for the public good; this behavior is one of them.
“FWIW, I think that the Gender Studies class material makes Joe feel deeply uncomfortable. It is requiring him to view sex, sexuality and variant alignment as something other than things for his personal gratification and amusement.”
I would 100% agree with this particular section. This indeed is his problem. This material does make him feel uncomfortable. He is being asked to look at sex as something other than a commodity for him to purchase for his gratification.
He is quite literally being asked to examine his privilege, his actions in society, and the reality that exists for individuals all across the gender spectrum and how these larger contexts affect individual actions.
And yes, that all makes him very uncomfortable, in very similar ways to how that sort of thing often makes privileged people uncomfortable.
And it’s just a shame that that’s sort of the central point of a gender studies class. To actually study gender. If he didn’t want to think critically about gender, well, no one is putting a gun to his head. He’s a privileged man in society, if he so chose, he could stopper up his ears and ignore every ounce of reality on the issue and live in his little bubble.
But he’s here, in a gender studies class. Where the whole point is to dive head first into this messy soup of gendered interactions and pry it apart including deconstructing the toxic mess he makes his bread and butter.
And so, here. He needs to fucking just deal and grow up. He’s not emotionally stunted. He’s not emotionally incapable of being a grown-up, he’s just skated on privilege that has allowed him to get away with being a harasser who never considers the women in his life beyond their utility for fantasy or sexual exploration.
And if he wants to continue to do so. Awesome. The door is right over there where he’s standing. Remember the drop class forms are in the registrar’s office.
But so long as he is in Leslie’s class and as long as he expects to get a final grade at the end of this class that isn’t an F, the onus is on him to shut up, put on his big boy pants, and fucking deal, for once in his sad life the reality the rest of us don’t get to escape as easily.
As you note. He is human. He is “normal” for what he is. And that’s sort of the problem. And sort of why he needs this education, as much as it hurts him, more than anyone else in this classroom.
And after a month of this shit, it’s more been time for him to stop being someone who exploits their privilege to refuse to grow and keeps on insisting that every space caters to his attempts to remain happily ignorant about how the world actually works.
All right. With THIS I can agree. Fully.
Fascinating material when looked from this angle.
Though we’re probably still taking this to places it was never meant to be brought to, but fuck it, it has character growth where I previously saw none so I’ll take it.
Cerberus, did we go to the same college or something?
Looking back on university, it feels like pretty much every class that encouraged discussion had at least one of these guys in it. Not just in my gender or sociology-related classes. In all of them. And maybe it’s because I live in and went to school in Texas, but most of them were very anti-homosexuality while constantly fetishizing lesbians.
Even my Literature classes got derailed frequently by a few of these asshats.
I was a freshman in college in 2001 and I was hoping that by now these jerks would be much fewer and farther between in university classrooms.
Given how common of an experience this seems to be, I’m guessing that I’ve been far too idealistic in that hope.
I wish we had, because then I’d just be talking about a local phenomenon rather than one that seems to happen at every campus in most every gender studies or feminist-leaning class.
And yes, all of that to the final paragraphs. And so many commiserations for having to deal with that bullshit mixed with homophobia yourself.
Yeah, I really hope that the homophobia is something that was highly localized and that has gone to the wayside even more in the intervening years. But I also know that my community is not nearly as homophobic overall as a great many Texas cities and towns. Not sure whether to be happy about that or not.
I can recall in an American Lit class we were discussing if the moral flaws of a historical figure diminishes his/her contributions to the world.
One of those privileged jerk types named widely-known character flaws of many historical figures, saying that Ben Franklin was a womanizer that abandoned his family, Thomas Jefferson had multiple children with a woman (women?) that was his slave(s), Ghandi was a racist and abused his wife, etc. He ended his list with “and Leonardo Da Vinci was fairly openly a homosexual.”
Myself and one other girl in the class were so outraged that we jumped to our feet and both started going off about how disgusting it was to compare abandoning your family, racism, spousal abuse, child abuse, and rape to being gay.
Several other classmates (all men, funnily enough) jumped in saying that it was a perfectly acceptable “character flaw” to include in the list.
After some back-and-forth (during which, with a lot of effort, I didn’t insult anyone and managed also not to scream, yell, or hit anyone.) the professor asked the other girl and me to leave the classroom for the day because we were “disrupting the class with [our] views.”
That was the only time I was asked to leave a class for it, but I heard comments and comparisons like that frequently and was also usually similarly outnumbered when I voiced objections to such idiocy.
*All the hugs*
I lucked out for literature at my college, because the literature department was randomly a big hub for a bunch of semi-famous lesbian authors, so it doubled as a baby queer theory/gender studies deal as well and a lot of the teachers went out of their way to expose the students to a diverse amount of authors and works.
High school on the other hand… yeahhhhhhhhh…
While I agree with your assessment that calling homosexuality a character flaw is disgusting, and comparing it to the aforementioned flaws doubly so, your account of the event leads me to believe that your professor made a right call when he asked you and the other girl to leave. Notice “a right call”, there were probably other right calls that could also have been made, but your Prof chose the right call along the path of least resistance.
You were obviously quite agitated, as you put it you “jumped up and started going off”, you say you had to make an effort not to hit anyone. Even if you say you weren’t screaming or yelling or calling people names, I think you spoke both loudly and quickly. And that you weren’t prepared to let the issue go after voicing your differing opinions. You say there was some back and forth before the professor stepped in.
Now consider this from the professor’s point of view. A student has just made a contribution to the class and offered their opinion. Two other students strongly disagree with the first student’s opinion and go on a rant about how they find the first opinion disgusting. Several more students join in, defending the first student’s opinion. Neither side is ready to drop the matter and the situation seems about to devolve into a shouting match about who can have the last word.
The easy right call is to ask the students who first ignored classroom rules and academic procedure to leave. That will defuse the situation in the classroom and virtually guarantee that the rest of the period will be without further disruptions.
Another right call would’ve been to ask everyone to calm down and drop the matter, acknowledge that there are obviously strongly held differing opinions, but the discussion was going off on a tangent. To attempt to get everyone back to the topic at hand.
I think the reason for you being asked to leave was less your opinions and more how you presented them. Sadly, being right doesn’t mean you don’t have to follow standard procedure of indicating you want to speak and waiting for the professor to ask you to contribute to the class.
At least in the classes I took you were expected to raise your hand to signal you had something to say. Of course you could say that you wanted to reply specifically to something that was just said, which would bump you up the queue if a lot of people wanted to contribute.
Long story short, your professor saw you and the other girl as disrupting class and taking the discussion off on a tangent, and decided to rather ask you to leave than to spend more time on calming the situation down.
Joe’s really not that bad. Asshole? Sure. He doesn’t think about others’ feelings before he says things. Really, he’s just irreverent. He’s never shown himself to impose on other people where they don’t want him, however crass his talk is.
But…we’re seeing him impose on Leslie and Joyce right at this very moment.
He wasn’t specifically addressing his comments to Joyce, he’s just being his usual gross and narcissistic self; she is just the one who zinged him in return.
If he’s imposing anything upon Leslie, it’s the realisation that just being eighteen doesn’t stop someone acting like the class clown in high school. As much as she’d like this to be an informal and open discussion forum between adults where ideas are passed around and knowledge provided, both Joe and Roz have proven that she’s going to have to impose a stricter in-class discipline, especially on the more aggressive personalities, if she wants anything achieved.
FWIW, I would have long since taking him to one side and made it abundantly clear that she would have him removed from the class as a disruptive influence if he couldn’t shut up or at least contribute positively. That said, I do honestly wonder if he actually believes he is contributing positively, which raises questions about whether his narcissism and sexual obsessive behaviour is actually a clinical psychological complaint.
“He’s never shown himself to impose on other people where they don’t want him”
Joe earlier this month imposing unwanted touch without asking for consent:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/05-saturdays-all-right-for-slighting/no/
Joe imposing his ignorant ass ideas about lesbians and then doubling down when Leslie countered with the sad reality:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/sweetlesbianfacts/
Joe imposing on Sarah, leering at her when a) her body language is screaming no, fuck no, b) she straight up verbalizes out loud how unsafe a seat next to him would be, and c) after she previously said his dad is just him with a beard while making the universal get the fuck away from me stance ( http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/persistent/ ):
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-4/01-the-only-dope-for-me-is-you/sitnext/
I mean, on that last point, he gets a lot of comment thread cred for backing off from her in this panel:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-4/01-the-only-dope-for-me-is-you/harness/
But he literally only does that after she straight up yells at him. I mean, for all his “reputation” for consent, he does not respect body language, he consistently goes after people who have shown zero interest and who are in fact showing negative interest. I mean, no one who is worth a damn goes hardcore flirtation on someone with that sort of body language as in those panels. They could not be signalling no any louder and demanding that women flip out in ways that are strongly socially disapproved to get him to… well not so much stop, but back away temporarily from his onslaught, albeit with him getting one or two more flirts in is really really not okay.
And that leads us to this panel. Joyce has communicated in every way possible how done with his shit he is. Leslie has tried every polite method she has outside dragging him aside and reading him the riot act to try and clue him in on the social impact of his behavior. And yet, here he is, imposing again. Causing both to go into exaggerated body languages of fuck this noise.
And being “irreverent” about marginalized groups in one of the few spaces that they bother ever taking about marginalized groups is some fucked up bigoted bullshit.
Let’s not forget how he put the cherry on top acting like he’s the victim when he recieves a proper response from not needed ill timed comments
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/01-pajama-jeans/full/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/01-pajama-jeans/touch/
Well, he really was the victim there. Mike (and Joyce) beating him up on that date was way out of line. Played for laughs though it was.
The point is why was he making sexual entendres in the first place? She had a guy beat him up to communicate her no. Yes, he’s the victim of that assault, but why the fuck is he still hitting on her? Why is he still vomiting his double entendres all over her? Why does he keep circling back to someone who paid someone to commit violence upon him to communicate her no?
That’s very telling behavior. And it’s very telling to how he regards women’s consent when the chips are down.
Agreed. His coming back to make sexual remarks to her after that really lowers my sympathy from that first encounter.
Since when has being “irreverent” or “politically incorrect” been a legitimate excuse for being a raging, bigoted, sexist asshole? I’d really love to know. I’ve been hearing the same or similar statements from people I know that like Trump as a presidential nominee.
When did “irreverent” and “politically incorrect” come to mean “would make a good leader.” Or at the very least to mean “charismatic,” “likable,” and “harmless”?
Because in my world being irreverent or politically incorrect the way both Joe and Donald Trump are makes them complete narcissistic bigoted assholes that possess little-to-no empathy for other human beings beyond what they can get out of them for their own benefit.
I’m taking the approach that “The Drama Tag Comes Pre-Pulled”. So when the character growth arc swings ’round to him, it’s gonna hit him hard. Many commenters will probably bring popcorn.
The material is also rather brief.
Well you can’t say he isn’t learning anything.
Leslie should be proud he has been paying attention.
Actually, I’d believe that Joe heard about the concept of slut shaming even more so from Roz than from Leslie.
I cannot see the conversations between those two being much more than negotiating consent and whose place it’s going to be at this time.
Joe needs to make sure that unit is properly covered when in use. /old guy
If he doesn’t, Joyce’s burn won’t be the only one he’ll have to worry about.
It said 0 comments and I was scared there for a second. It’s always in the 80s by the time I get here. Lucky it was in double digits almost instantly.
I know, I’m shocked these guys gave me a chance. Guess I’m the only one celebrating this digitally, with a long distance partner.
You’re not the only one, but I’m running D&D, not camping comment sections. Different strokes.
Nope, not the only one but my celebration was midnight his time. 14 hour time difference. Was in bed by like 10:30pm my time. ^^;;
That is some pure burn by Joyce.
So proud.
FAAAAAACE-palms.
Actually, Joe, your attempt at a joke could be considered sexual harassment in come circles.
*snrk*
Yes. A and B are not actually mutually exclusive, though.
Sed circles are comprised of terribly boring and insipid people that never had to deal with actual harassment in their sheltered lives (speaking from vast fucking experience). But yes. And thankfully the sane people mostly ignore those circles.
I like how you apparently know every intimate detail of people’s lives just by looking at them (or, say, reading their comments on a webcomic page). Can you teach me that one or is it an inborn talent? I, too, would like to pass judgement on people for things that are none of my business.
I’m pretty sure talking about vague circles of people that aren’t the ones directly above me has nothing to do with my ability to read people. I think you’re making the supposition that first poster put himself in sed circle while evidence thereof is sketchy at best in regards to what was actually posted.
However I can infer common characteristics based on what ticks off certain people. Mostly because the two are linked in a few cases. Of course, every rule has exceptions, but as humans we do like our boxes. I did willingly omit overly-exposed groups such as ‘feminazis’ though.
The claim you made was that people who considered Joe’s “joke” sexual harassment were “comprised of terribly boring and insipid people that never had to deal with actual harassment in their sheltered lives”. You were pretty clear on that point.
I was. I simply didn’t include opening poster in sed lot out of politeness and because I tend to give people I’ve never seen before the benefit of the doubt.
And yes, whoever is so terribly bothered by a joke has obviously never felt real sexual abuse or harassment, because to compare the two with a straight face is to do a huge disservice to anyone that lived through such things as rape and years of sexual harassment.
Passing off a joke as something genuinely harmful is patronizing towards actual victims. It also breeds fear for something harmless and worse yet, can ruin innocent lives. Witch-hunts aren’t something we should be trying to bring back, as much as some seem to enjoy them.
There’s a big difference between someone insulting your fashion choices and being stabbed. One is harmless and the other quite deadly. Claiming both are/should be on the same legal level makes it clear that sed person making the claim never got stabbed and should refrain from talking about things she/he apparently doesn’t comprehend.
I have been raped. I still find his behavior disgusting. Jokes are not exempt from being genuinely harmful.
Appropriate gesture of support and ditto on being someone who has been raped who finds his behavior abhorrent and an example of sexual harassment.
Appreciation and return of appropriate gesture of support ♥
Regardless of consensus or not, it saddens my soul to hear such things. Can’t say I was raped, but I was tortured (lightly compared to military torture, but still) by a relative when I was small. I know how it feels to be helpless and in pain – in my case with the back of my palms/arms nearly bleeding from minute-long sessions of rug-burn. Think I was 6 at the time? I’ve also had my first kiss (though that sham can’t really be considered such – I reserve such a place of honor for my first girlfriend that I love to this day, 9 years later) with the same person, but I can’t say I didn’t consent, even if age 8 is a wee bit young to actually give consent – but I own up to my decisions at the time.
It’s hard to put into words thoughts meant to be a balm for the soul so that another human feels supported. But I hope these sparse lines send the appropriate message.
If not, I am sorry I couldn’t do more.
Know that you are among friends (or at least mostly friends – wouldn’t want to speak for everyone, but I sure can for myself). Even if we don’t agree on everything.
Heck, I have a constant circular argument with one of my best friends where I side with the individual and he with society above sed individual. We still deeply care about each other and respect each other’s views to a certain very large extent – just that we sometimes want to smash each other’s head in with a blunt object. 😛 Close friend stuff.
Take care Shiro. Happy New Year as well.
Telling people that they haven’t been harassed enough to be offended is harmful, toxic and just plain gross.
You basically said that any one reading your post that feels that Joe’s comments and conduct qualify as sexual harassment are boring, stupid, sheltered and that they are patronizing and insulting abuse/rape survivors.
Apparently you know for a fact that because I find Joe’s immature comments and derailments offensive and unacceptable that I’ve never been abused. I guess the years I spent with an abusive partner being physically and sexually assaulted, as well as raped frequently don’t count as actual abuse or actual rape. Good to know. I guess I can just get the fuck over that trauma now. I’m so grateful that you are so wise as to decree this.
Back here in reality, calling a spade a spade doesn’t patronize or insult the abuse suffered by others (or by ourselves). Excusing sexual harassment and inappropriate behavior such as Joe’s as “it’s just a joke, get over it” or as “boys will be boys, women need to learn to deal” creates more victims of abuse and rape. It prevents those in a relationship that is abusive from leaving. It prevents those that have been assaulted and/or raped from getting real help and real support, even from loved ones.
In short YOU are part of the problem. YOU are helping to contribute to a society that hurts victims more. You’re far from the white knight rushing in to save us poor damsels from the patronizing and insulting idiots. You’re one of the idiots that’s tossing us in to the dragon’s cave.
There is a point where it’s acceptable to be offended (especially on behalf of someone else). I disagree that Joe has crossed that line.
I never sed they where stupid.
As for my statement, I amended it somewhere down the text wall about 5h ago to only include *most* of the people taking offense – because Cerberus knows how to make a good point and she’s earned my respect over a long period of time, and as such she’s dragged my opinion of easily riled up persons higher then it was before.
That sed, I DO NOT own the monopoly on what is right and wrong. Everything that I say, that we say, that everyone has EVER sed, is a OPINION. Unless it’s math or something strictly clinical, we all are our opinions.
This sed, why yes, I feel insulted and patronized to by people’s outrage at what I see as harmless jokes – and considering my life’s story I actually have just as much right to feel the way I feel as you do. This is not a one-way street. However that is FINE.
Did I use hyperbole? Sure, I was hot tempered at the time. I do however fundamentally disagree with the bar for serious accusations being set so low, because it is detrimental to everyone – IN MY OPINION (is there really a need for me to write this every other sentence?).
“because I find Joe’s immature comments and derailments offensive and unacceptable that I’ve never been abused.” – All right, I’ll bite. Issue here is we’ve taken such vastly different life lessons from similar experiences that we can not agree on this topic.
Fundamentally I’ve learned some shit’s just too inconsequential or has no malice behind it to matter, hence harmless. While you’ve apparently learned that even meaningless dick jokes on the part of (nearly a) child makes him persona non grata. I simply can’t agree to that – he’s not evil, he’s just insensitive! Which won’t further any evil agendas or plots or make him horrible forever. It just makes him young and stupid – or, more correctly, lacking wisdom. I can’t condemn a child or man or woman to all that for a simple joke that wasn’t even directed at anyone in particular.
I agree he’s making an ass of himself. No one is disputing this! But that doesn’t make him a sexual predator. It just makes him a likely involuntary ass! And that’s not something worth directing anyone’s anger towards.
“immature comments and derailments offensive and unacceptable” I EVEN agree with you up until the word ‘unacceptable’! That’s ALL this discussion is. You state it’s unacceptable and I state it’s acceptable as long as it’s not with intent to hurt others. You state you’re offended on Joyce’s part and I state I’m offended this is getting treated as a serious issue requiring nuking from orbit. It’s the classic never ending circle of “I am offended by […]”. This might as well devolve into ‘Yes I am, no you’re not.’ Can we please agree we have fundamentally different views on this topic and move on with our lives? Because we do.
HOWEVER, none of this makes you a bad person to me, even if I previously put you in the ‘boring and insipid’ box for easier compartmentalization before you where an individual that meaningfully contributed to the discussion at hand. Because respect is earned and lost based on actions and even opinions because we attribute those opinions to certain traits/choices/actions/reasoning’s we can respect or not.
You could be a great person! I can’t possibly tell from so few comments.
Yet again, I fully agree I used hyperbole to facilitate the expression of my feelings on such opinions and why. I also amended it because hyperbole is always wrong (see what I did there?).
“don’t count as actual abuse or actual rape” – Of course they do. Hyperbole – it was used. Yet I simply can’t process how you could reach such conclusions with a vastly similar tool-set. And I don’t think you can for me either.
Decrees are in essence bullshit. As stated previously, no one has a monopoly on the trough, not even I or you – even if we’d like to have it.
And getting over it… I hope you can, eventually. Friends/family/doctors/medicine/self-reflection/vacations can all help. I can only hope you eventually do pull through it. This is not me being facetious, it’s me showing empathy to another human being that had it hard. Can’t we be nice to one another without having to fully agree?
“calling a spade a spade” – I’d say it’s more like calling a hoe a spade if you want gardening references – making it out something it’s not.
I’ve never used the ‘boys will be boys’ line – actually I’ve not even seen it used to defend Joe.
Inappropriate yes – he’s in class for crying out loud. Harassment no – he’s not even gunning for Joyce. You can’t harass an entire class with lewd jokes – what sort of sexuality would he even be displaying then? This isn’t even sexual, he’s not dumb enough to actually try to pick up anyone like this IN CLASS. He however is crass enough to make a joke about it.
“It prevents those in a relationship that is abusive from leaving.” – How? How could anything that’s been discussed here have such an impact upon anyone. Not to mention “prevents” – really? Is Joe putting a chain around someone’s ankle?
This statement is pure fantasy – how can he or anyone do this by their sheer existence/behavior? More importantly, last I checked people are responsible for their own actions. Mental duress or no duress, you or I still did what we did. I understand the idea of being trapped, but Joe isn’t to blame for that. Whoever did it to you is.
“, even from loved ones.” – How is Joe doing this?
Let me tell you what prevented me from leaving when one of my exes beat my chest and both my legs black and blue because she wanted to be self-destructive in peace and not have me keep her away from her knives: the fucking fact that I loved her. As toxic as it was, I’d have given up anything to save her from herself. I probably still would, 5 years later and without seeing her for ~3. No one is to blame for me not leaving and enduring soul-crushing agony because of it. No one but MYSELF. Different things, I know, because even after 45min of punching and kicking me I could still lift her up after she fell from our bed naked and freezing. I’m a man and can take a lot of fucking physical punishment. I’m not saying this is good. I’m saying I sympathize and at the same time stating it’s our mess to get out of – be that alone or by calling friends and family. Friends helped me greatly during this time. But it wasn’t Joe’s fault. Joe is inconsequential. Heck, he’d probably be sympathetic as the man really does have a good heart when it comes down to it. It’s just buried under piles of machismo. He’ll grow up. He’s not a bad person. He’d try to help.
“In short YOU are part of the problem. YOU are helping to contribute to a society that hurts victims more.” – No, I’m not.
I’m someone that isn’t putting up with sheltering everyone and neutering everything out of fear. I’m also someone that disagrees with you – which funny enough doesn’t make me a bad person either, same as you’re not one just for disagreeing with me.
That sed, attacking me personally (not as a group, but /personally/) for disagreeing with you, veiled as somehow me contributing to a grand conspiracy that puts victims down (funny, that would make it rather self-destructive and I can assure you I do not want to hurt myself in the slightest), does actually show you displaying a clear aggressor-mentality. Why is it not enough to take on my arguments? Must you resort to ad hominem? From what high moral position do you preach when you throw the first stone?
“You’re far from the white knight rushing in to save us poor damsels from the patronizing and insulting idiots.” – I only try to save those that seem to be worth the trouble of saving. And white? Ma’am, you insult me. Clearly I would be a dark knight. But do you need a white knight? Not that I mind giving a helping hand to those that merit such, but you chose an interesting metaphor for your position.
“You’re one of the idiots that’s tossing us in to the dragon’s cave.” We’ve never spoken before and you already know how I act in something other then a debate? Hardly. I’m someone that would simply walk past you if I’d know your preference for personal insults. If not, I’d likely help if you where being bullied and couldn’t handle it yourself. But calling me an idiot that hurts victims because you disagree with my viewpoint is both despicable and demonstrably false (the idiot part).
Good day, Ma’am.
From the IU sexual harassment policy:
Well, I totally broke that blockquote. Yuck.
Yes, my world has been a cornucopia of privilege free from harassment of all kinds. Thank you so much, DV, cause thanks to your comment, the magical act of believing this constitutes sexual harassment has magically freed my life of catcallers, creepy stalkers, street creeps who sneak up and grab breasts or say that they’ll rape me or my gf, fucks threatening to kill me, people spitting on me, people calling me (homophobic slur), and even people refusing to serve me at restaurants.
I had never realized escaping all that relentless bullshit was as easy as just believing that sexual harassment is sexual harassment, but luckily your vast experience has lit the way. So thank you, kind sir. You have done all of womankind a kind service this day.
Now let us all bask in this wondrous magical gift by calling it sexual harassment together. If we all band together now, we can eliminate it all from Earth once and for all! Go team!
*sigh*
Joe is none of those things.
Perhaps at his worse, Joe could be a catcaller. Yet those are compared to everything else you listed, rather inconsequential – not to mention hilariously stupid to the point where they apparently don’t grasp what they’re doing and how much of an ass they’re making of themselves.
Everything else you mentioned is indeed criminal sexual harassment (except the spitting, that part is likely battery) and should be prosecuted in a court of law or in the court of my-punch-to-their-face. Dick jokes aren’t.
How have I not been clear on this?
I’m disappointed you don’t know me better then this by now, Cerb.
Simply put, people that judge a crass joke the same as actual sexual harassment (you listed quite a few variants) seem not to have a sense of scope or scale. Molehills into mountains, basically. And I can not conceive that you or others that have had personal experience with the real thing could be affected in any way by Joe’s antics.
7 years I’ve been sexually harassed on a daily basis by a former classmate – everything from rubbing her crotch while calling my name during breaks (this was primary school) to trying (and often managing) to grab my dick, even spitting on me and giving me black and blue marks every 2-3 days. This lasted 7 YEARS. THAT is methodical, sexual harassment. THIS is harmless. Heck, this is funny, because it’s not directed towards Joyce at all and ends with him getting dick-slapped. Not to mention Joe isn’t a very realistic character – he’s a walking dick joke.
What I’m puzzled by is how someone with your healthy thick skin can find this offensive while I find it funny. I’ll even concede that only *most* people that would consider this harassment are insipid and whatever I sed previously, because you are neither of those. I’m still baffled, but so be it.
What your classmate did to you is unacceptable and I’m sorry it happened to you. Behavior like Joe’s is also unacceptable. What you’re saying seems to imply that it isn’t sexual harassment “enough” which is…messed up and harmful to fellow survivors.
After a conversation with Cerb, I realized the crux of our debate today: I view Joe as harmless because he lacks malice – he’s insensitive and crass but has no bad intentions… or any intentions past a silly joke he finds funny. What I’m hearing from the other side of the debate is that Joyce’s or Leslie’s interpretation of his actions are more important then Joe’s lack of malice.
At least I think this is essentially our point of contention.
Can’t say I have any answer to that other then that I can’t hate any person that means well, even if they fuck up.
When you step on someone’s toes, you apologize, whether you meant to or not. When inadvertently stepping on toes becomes pretty much your sole personality trait…well. You become quite an unpleasant person to be around, malice or not, don’t you?
Or a clumpsy one.
Also in this case; To my knowledge no one enjoys having their toes stepped on. In Joes case the range of reactions to his jokes will be quite a wide range – not every person will be horribly offended or “hurt” by them, only some people in some circumstances.
That alone should mean he should be more careful, sure. But making sexual jokes *is not a instinctively bad thing*.
Also there’s a argument that even if you did see it as universally bad, the label you give “lack of consideration” it should be different then those that deliberately set out to harm others.
The poor man has big feet! He can’t help it… yet. And Joyce is wearing ballerina shoes in the middle of winter.
But yes, he is being unpleasant for some and he’s getting flack for it. He’ll learn. I hope.
I’ve mentioned this before awhile back but it has become relevant again.
There was a case of a schizophrenic woman who drowned her like 3-4 children in a bathtub because she literally believed that she was saving them from Satan.
She meant well though so it was totally fine right~
Commiserations and appropriate gesture of support for what you’ve been through. But we do no service when we compare tragedies for the purpose of erasing anything less.
Or at least, that has historically been the prison with which I and many other survivors have used to dismiss and minimize their suffering at great personal expense. The fact that I was not beaten when I was raped does not minimize my sexual assault anymore than my daily harassment minimizes or excuses anyone else’s experiences of street harassment.
These incidents instead point to larger systemic problems. Ones that won’t get fixed if we compare and contrast and eliminate anything under a certain level of awful.
Thank you, and seeing as we’ve all cooled our heads a bit, I’d like to again send out my warmest gestures of support to you and others that have been through similar experiences.
I’ve sed this before to you Cerb, but probably too late for you to read it – way back several months when I first saw a part of your story. I understand, I really do. And I’m sorry that I can’t help more that are in such situations. I did my share of helping, but it’s only a drop in the bucket. Ultimately, we each have to be strong and grow from even the worse of experiences.
Humans are strong and even shit like this can’t break us if we don’t let it.
Before I get back to the debate, I’d like to say a few more personal words. That girl that treated me this way… it was because she loved me but had no idea how to express it nor the intellect to properly seduce me. Probably her parents beat her as well. I shall never know that part, sadly. It took a very ugly altercation for her to stop, once I finally had enough of it. It’s very scary when something that’s bottled up for 7 years finally explodes. And I did. And she was quiet as a mouse after that day, for weeks. Finally, before school finally ended we had a talk – I gave her a chance to explain herself and forgave her. Just like that all that hatered that I still had in me for her vanished. I was even sad it didn’t happen years before – not so much because it would have stopped the daily terror I felt, but because she really did care for me… in a twisted way… but still. Had she stopped for long enough to show me some damn respect as a fellow human being, I could have possibly loved her back. I could have helped her, wiped away years of bullshit she probably suffered. There was even some admiration there at the end – she was loyal, I’ll give her that… a rare thing. A precious thing. Perhaps the most important quality one can have. Idealistic dreams, I’m sure… but still. I am sad for a happier time we could have provided each other had she only been -nice- to me.
Still, what I went through shaped me and who I am. And I rather like me. Wouldn’t trade it for anything else now that it’s part of me.
Sorry, felt like I had to mention her not being some fundamentally-evil demon-thing in the end… wouldn’t feel right to misrepresent her. She deserved a lot, but she wasn’t unredeemable.
Back to our regularly scheduled debate:
Sweeping under the rug the little malicious pokes and prods we receive from others isn’t something I’d ever condone. As a matter of fact, I am quite vocal about bullshit when I smell it. Thing is, there is no malice here. Nor do I think anyone has any allergic reactions to Joe’s joke in that class. Yes, the joke is overdone, because Joe’s schtick is a one track pony until he gets some more depth. But he was trying to lighten the mood. He failed for some, sure, but effort and good (or at the very least class-clown-esque) intentions still count for something. At least it should, in my opinion.
Plus Joyce shot him down, she got her retort. All is well in the world?
As others have stated before me… Joe’s pretty easy to figure out, we’re giving this more depth then it ever had or will have.
Leaving Joe aside, I do feel that while bullshit should be called out, it is unreasonable and counterproductive to Big Brother (1984 reference, not the god awful shows from the 2000’s onward) speech when there is no malice in it. Sure, some people won’t like what’s sed – even I can’t stand certain things – but that’s on /me/ as long as the person talking isn’t gunning for me or my peers. The second he is, I’ll verbally bongoslap him or worse if he/she gets physical (ESPECIALLY if someone DARES to harass my friends… you learn a lot by taking punches and kicks for 7 years+; including how to block and take a punch, and where to punch if shit goes too far).
I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt if no malice is detected.
All jokes are fine as long as you’re not mean about it, as far as I’m concerned.
As stated above in response to Shiro’s comment – I think this is the crux of our debate: intent versus effect.
In my own vast experience, a lot of people who are sensitive to harassment or stuff that implies harassment of any kind, including and especially people who are genuinely oversensitive, tend to be people who have put up with massive amounts of shit in their lives and now have a hair trigger.
Not everybody deals with stuff by getting used to it or getting over it. Some people deal with stuff by chucking it out of their lives and refusing to put up with it. Plus, I mean… in this situation we know for a fact what Joyce has and hasn’t experienced, so.
Aaaand the narrative goes around and smacks him gently with a good punchline. I like it.
Also Leslie is a delight.
Considered sexual harassment…sure. Evidently a bunch of people here consider it exactly that. But one would never win in court. Harassment is an inherently aggressive action, requiring threats or demands of some kind. Cracking a sexual joke in a tense atmosphere is not harassment.
Joe is insensitive and is dismissive of anything outside his narrow range of interests, but he has done absolutely nothing wrong with regards to sex or sexual advances. And personally, I don’t see why his actions here are worthy of anything more than an eye roll even if you did imagine yourself in the classroom.
Yes, courts suck and do not adequately cover or respond to situations of systemic oppression, often instead serving as tacit support for corrupted institutions and long-standing social inequalities.
I mean, fuck, when their record on even major crimes like rape or the murder of unarmed black children is as bad as theirs is, it should be clearly obvious why they should not be considered the gold standard of what is and isn’t appropriate behavior or behavior that contributes to societal oppression.
Would Joe go to jail for this shit? Probably not. Hell, he probably wouldn’t go to jail if he raped half the class, taped himself doing it and mailed the tape to the cops (that was a real case that happened by the way, the perpetrators almost got away with it too). That doesn’t make his actions appropriate nor do they mean he’s not contributing to a toxic environment for his fellow students and disrupting their education.
You realize that you only get away with setting the bar there because our culture places an irrationally large emphasis on sexual matters, right? Applying that kind of metric across the board means that everyone in this comment section would have to be locked up on attempted murder charges for being mildly rude to someone on the internet.
Insensitivity to someone else’s day-to-day emotional state isn’t actually the same thing as being offensive, it’s pretty much literally just “not being the same person”. Joe doesn’t have any particular moral obligation to step lightly around someone he has barely even met, man, at worst he’s just taking the class less seriously than the teacher would like, which… well, that describes 110% of the students of the class, honestly, even the ones that are all ‘new wave feminism is srs bzns’ are constantly talking to each other while the instructor is lecturing, etc. Joe’s no greater an offender than anyone else in the cast.
“Yes, courts suck and do not adequately cover or respond to situations of systemic oppression,”
If you were arrested for making this remark, I would say THAT was systemic oppression.
Your views on how the court treats rape (somewhat outdated, but there are exceptions on region) and black people (generally true) hold no bearing on the legal question of whether this qualifies as sexual harassment.
Now, from a *social* standpoint, things get interesting. However, as this is a subjective topic, I will only be seeking to learn your viewpoint on the matter and share my own. There is no universal truth on morality, and thus no objective answer to whether what Joe did here was wrong.
Joe is an undergraduate making a joke to the class. Class has not started. The authority figure (Leslie) has not told Joe to stop. There is no clear consensus in the class discouraging Joe’s behavior. Joe is trying, in his own limited way, to help Leslie shift the mood away from gunmen and Roz’s previous behavior, both of which were traumatic experiences for Joyce. This is a good thing, even if the joke itself was eye roll worthy.
‘Outdated’, he says. Dude, one of those cases was /last fucking year/ (Unless you’d like to be a pedant, in which case ‘2 years ago’ because it’s now, today, 2016). But more to the point, ‘sexual harrassment’ is almost never actually prosecuted legally – instead, it’s handled not-even-civilly – within institutions. And as it happens, it /does/ meet the IU harrassment policy, helpfully posted for you earlier!
Further, since you want to be big into theory here, for reasons that elude me, nobody is saying what he is doing is legally actionable or illegal. They said what he’s doing is harmful. Sexual harrassment covers far more than the law, because we, as a culture, do not generally think some of the less aggravated forms of it are harmful enough to BE legally actionable or illegal. “What is a harmful thing”, “What is an actionable thing” and “What is legal” is a venn diagram for numerous reasons, and in principle, it’s a GOOD thing that they’re a venn diagram (Even if I disagree with where on the diagram sexual harrassment should fall).
All the this. And the point of my comment on the courts is that they are a terrible barometer of what is acceptable behavior or what should or shouldn’t count as rape, sexual assault, sexual harassment, et al. Anymore than a free pass by the courts to some racist murdering a black child makes that a-okay and above board.
And as for “outdated”, one of my students Forensics Science project this year has been analyzing the current research on processing of sexual assault evidence kits, analyzing police treatment of survivors of sexual assault, analyzing court treatment of sexual assault, campus authority’s treatment of sexual assaults, and looking into police investigations of sexual assault in comparisons to other crimes. It was part of a 3 subject major project that took a big chunk out of her Statistics class, her English class, and then my Forensics Science class with her. As part of this she was looking at fresh data within the last couple of years as well as current academic research on the subject.
The data accumulated was horrifying and condemning on how every single failure has and continues to fail sexual assault survivors, often blaming them for their crimes and refusing to take them seriously. And this student was able to statistically prove that this was the case, analyzing the processing of SAEKs as compared to any other form of DNA based evidence.
Similarly, I’ve had unfortunate personal experience with the way cops often straight up discourage sexual assault reports, blaming the victim even when it is a clear-cut case with video evidence and a perpetrator who is not socially supported.
And then there’s shit like this:
https://www.propublica.org/article/false-rape-accusations-an-unbelievable-story
This is the common reality when women report sexual assault and it’s a major reason most don’t. Statistically, sexual assault has been shown to be one of the most under-reported crimes out there and it is also one of the least prosecuted, meaning that unless a survivor has video, confessions, and a backstory free of any other sexual activity, they can’t even expect a chance at a fair trial, much less that their perpetrator will go to jail.
If people want, I can link some of the epic threads where people have shared their experiences of rape and the reporting thereof and how badly the system has failed everyone.
But it is a large part of why setting the bar on what is prosecutable versus what is right is really sick and wrong.
So we’re sticking to the legal rather than social question then? Very well.
Yes, outdated. Picking out horrifying examples doesn’t change the fact that there has been a broad shift in legal approach to rape over recent decades. Changes in interpretations of use of force requirements, gender roles and expectations, etc, have led to a very different legal landscape for rape today than in the middle of the 20th century. Courts try to be consistent, but frankly it’s a big country and state laws and local attitudes do vary. There’s always going to be problems getting people on the same policy.
I specifically addressed the question of the strength of a sexual harassment case in court. Indiana University’s sexual harassment policy did escape my notice when it was posted, but it is irrelevant to the topic I was dealing with. Nonetheless, for argument’s sake, let’s examine that policy which parallels the law in most respects anyway: Repeated unwanted sexual advances would constitute creating a hostile, more stressful environment. Joe’s joke, addressed to the whole class, was taken with the opposite aim in mind. He was defusing tension, not creating it. While his joke had sexual content it was not directed specifically at Joyce and was not in any way intended to convince her to have sex with him. To view Joe as guilty of sexual harassment would be equivalent to barring any person who’s ever unsuccessfully pursued a romantic relationship from making a sexual joke ever as long as the person they failed to pursue happened to be in the room. That would be a ridiculous policy, and holding Joe liable for sexual harassment under IU policy would be equally ridiculous.
To Cerberus: Sounds like you (and your student) have done your research on this, probably more than I have. Would you elaborate on the statistics of cases in the last 15 years, as a percentage, where courts have clearly treated evidence of rape poorly? I don’t dispute police abuses and backwards attitudes at all, there’s more than enough evidence of that stuff happening. The topic I am debating is whether courts nowadays still treat rape cases as badly as they have historically, the answer to which I from what I have studied is no.
Also, to a secondary point you made: Courts are not meant to fight back against systemic oppression unless they violate a law or the constitution. They are there to interpret the law, and any public policy interests they consider has to be within the boundaries of existing law. So yes, they do enforce existing social norms in the absence of a violation. That’s what they’re supposed to do.
Sure, there’ve been changes on paper. 4 decades ago, spouse rape was illegal. But in actual practice, the only thing you can actually get convicted for is still stranger rape, or rape involving drugs that are detected. Prosecutors keep those 95% conviction rates by staying away from anything with even the most remote questionableness unless forced to politically. And nobody but you is talking about court. The topic you’re dealing with is so narrowly selective as to be useless.
And no, he was not ‘defusing tension’. This may have been his INTENT, but it was not his EFFECT. If sexual harrassment were about the actor’s INTENT, they would be completely dead letter, both legally and as policies. And Joe has received repeated no’s from classgoers in general. If he’d made it to ROZ, we’d be having a different conversation. He didn’t. We aren’t. Roz is someone he can be reasonably confident is okay with it, rather than reasonably confident isn’t okay with it (As most of the class seems to be by now).
And again, he’s not LIABLE for shit. IU’s sexual harrassment policy does have some internal measures, presumably, but I can be 95% positive it carries no other legal weight except permitting those remedies. And frankly, those internal measures would probably be toothless outside of DoA.
Also, you’ll still probably walk if you do that, you’re just less likely to.
Well, unless you’re not white, but that’s somehow never what people are talking about.
All of this.
Rutee, *I* am talking about court. And I am talking about it because sexual harassment is a legal issue with a real, definitive answer. When people throw around the term sexual harassment, that involves the law unless context determines otherwise.
If you are not interested in debating the law, then why are you replying to me? If you want to talk about the social aspect, just say so and engage me properly.
You have no right to stop me talking about the subject I choose to, and while you have the right to be deluded into thinking you do, it does hurt your credibility and would make you a useless conversation partner. Calling me names is irrelevant to the strength of your argument, and I am uninterested in petty emotional venting and shouting matches. Further comments addressing me as such will be ignored. I have better things to do with my time.
…In fact, I’m rather sad I spent 15 minutes of my life typing all this. It’s an investment with an optimistic hope something productive will come of it later I suppose. Cerberus did have a rather good post I found well worth reading, after all.
Also: “Courts aren’t meant to fight systemic oppression”. Yeah, we fuckin’ know. That’s why when asking whether someone is being harmful by perpetrating one, the question of legality is FUCKING USELESS. You are a /colossal/ jackass for trying to steer this into a question of legality precisely nobody was interested in.
He’s not being a jackass, he’s simply talking about something he’s interested in discussing. You steering it away does not make you a jackass either, but calling others names does.
As for legality being useless… that’s a matter of personal opinion but it is not a matter of irrelevance. Weather you or I like it or not, it is a VERY important question, especially with legal terms being thrown around rather carelessly. That sed, different countries have different laws and here on the Internet we have in part to talk about the larger underlying issues behind the laws, since not all of us have sed laws in common. I, for example am not subject to any US laws, except a few ones pertaining to website hosting in cases where servers are physically on US soil.
In other words, I both agree and disagree with your opinions here. I agree that online it is partially irrelevant since we aren’t all subjects to the same laws, yet I do find the topic interesting from a academic standpoint hence proof you’re grossly mistaken that “nobody was interested in” this topic. But seriously, less name-calling – it lessens how serious I and others can take your viewpoints (because humans care /who/ presents them something, not only what is presented, and it feeds back into the argument positively or negatively).
Oh God, that last panel made me fall out of my chair from laughing. My cat actually ran up to me and just stared like “What the hell is wrong with you slave?”
Unit, or you nit?
in a general sense yes, but my current project is crocheted…oh wait, “nit.” not “knit.” never mind.
Woo! Go Joyce! Lighting up the New Year with a sick burn.
im ready for this class
Joe and Joyce both managed to get a laugh out of me. This is unsettling. >_>
True.
I honestly can’t wait to see what this new Joyce has in store for us in 2016. That was a sweet burn.
Snarky Joyce is so great.
Reconsidering the price you had to pay to get dating Malaya retconned there, Leslie?
Take that, Joe’s dinger! (dinger is just a funny word, wanted to get 2015 off to a good start.)
Dinger is a great word. Using it to describe male genitals from now on.
You’re about a year late to get 2015 off to a good start.
In my defense, it wasn’t midnight yet, so I was only 364 days later. about my sorta speed
Has anyone mentioned that Joyce’s burn on Joe was wicked awesome, or am I the first?
Not the first? No?
Okay, am I at least the first one to make fun of the fact that everyone rushed on here to say the same exact thing?
Just be glad you didn’t rush on here to make a comment that’s an anagram of ‘Areal Exams Shunts’ (maybe it’s safe to post that way). There are very strong opinions about Exam Shunts. Justified, mind you, but still, very strong.
Dumbing of age is filmed in front of a live studio audience.
Because the dead one started to smell after a week.
XD Opus that was gold
Holy shit, Joyce.
So wait, did classes just resume as normal the day after the shooting?
I kind of figured the school would be on lockdown after that.
Life goes on. No one got shot, or it’d probably be considered a bigger deal.
I suppose. You think there would be a bigger fallout to another gunman on a college campus, even if none of the students were hurt.
No need to make it a bigger deal than it is. Since the asshat in question is disarmed, physically incapacitated and in the hospital under police guard, let everyone else get on with their life.
The shooting was on Monday. This is Friday.
Tomorrow is Parentopocalypse: The Quickening – Joyce and Becky go home to see Joyce’s parents where they will be totally accepting and supportive.
Right?
right?
Such light, such optimism. Alas, this is a David Willis production.
Definitely. I see no red flags here… in my black lights out room… in a bunker… locked in a box… that’s got a magical darkness spell cast over it…
So yeah, I’d say we’re all good!
…Cerberus knows that Death is looking for him, and has spent many years designing an impregnable hiding place.
He has just set the complicated clockwork of the lock and shut the lid, lying back in the knowledge that here at last is the perfect defence against the most ultimate of all his enemies, although as yet he has not considered the important part that airholes must play in an enterprise of this kind.
And right beside him, very lose to his ear, a voice has just said: DARK IN HERE, ISN’T IT?
*slow clap* And a shot poured out for great ones passed on.
Drank yesterday both brandy and Jack in memoriam of the recently late rock legend Lemmy Kilmister. Earned respect for a life lived to the fullest.
Rock In Peace, ya’ Bastard. \m/
A man’s not dead while his name is still spoken. Hope that he’s laughing from wherever he is.
In that case he’ll die at about the same time as the last cockroach croaks it while Ace of Spades plays from a bomb shelter. Even then…
It seems like they were on lockdown for Monday. And classes apparently occurred on Wednesday. I’d suspect that classes still occurred Tuesday, but special exception may have been allowed for students that felt unsafe after the incident (though most school treatments of serious issues has often fell on the callous side of the fence though individual teachers have extended special dispensation).
Next strip: Leslie becomes Penny, in terms of just no longer caring.
Nah, almost certainly not. Still…poor Les. Hehe.
She’s already pining for last year’s class, when the problem student was that guy who kept falling asleep and snoring loudly every class.
This will be a fun class.
I should probably clarify and add session.
Leslie doesn’t deserve this
No, but it’s delicious suffering just the same.
Nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom.
It’s the class Leslie deserves, but not the one she needs right now.
…Wait, only the second half of that sentence is correct. Stupid Nolan film! Be more relevant to this comic!
People are saying Joe is literally the worst for this, but I think it was a pretty funny joke. He should take the class more seriously, though.
Eeyup.
I don’t. I hope this is the time he finally gets in shit for his stupid.
Agreed. Completely inappropriate in a gender studies class to start with, to speak nothing of the special kind of inappropriateness particular to that exact moment.
Joe’s studied plenty of genders in his time. Mostly the female ones. Repeatedly. With his penis. And they liked it.
You’re sure showing your wit and charm all over these comments, aren’t you?
One person’s tonic is another’s poison. I could say the same to you, but I didn’t.
Well, you would have been wrong so it’s best you didn’t.
I didn’t because I don’t make a habit of backhandedly critiquing people on comment sections. Ideas are to be torn apart if they deserve it and groups can be critiqued, but not the person in front of you – it’s simply rude.
You’re so hilarious!!!!
Hey DV-
I’mma let Becky panel 5 provide my response on this one:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-6/01-to-those-whod-ground-me/unlimited/
I do like that panel.
Ditto Shiro.
He’s been pulling this disruption game for a month and has only been escalating in the last few weeks. I know Leslie is not fond of bringing down the hammer to re-establish class order, but he really does need to be brought aside and given a talking to or be hit with a public petition, because this is beyond unacceptable.
It’s definitely something she should resign herself to needing to do because as much as she may wish she could just have open and frank discussions with her students like they were mature adults they aren’t. They’re close but they’re still at least partially kids and they require at least some structured framework to keep things on the rails.
Oh I know that zone. Thats the zone where you finally became so fed up with that one kid in the class that the first shot that comes to mind, no matter how heinous, is getting used. I got slapped for goin into that zone.
i feel like Joe got that vocabulary from Roz.
Well, if Walky is to be believed, slut-shaming was the answer to half of the first quiz.
Yay, Leslie and Joe!
Joe!! Unwanted sexual advances!!
Kind of a tagline for him, at least with what we’ve actually seen (except for Roz, I’m pretty sure). Presumably he’s much better at it off-screen.
At least it is only verbally. He has established that he may joke like this, but he doesn’t cross that line physically. (when he was chiding Danny for turning Roz down- he said if she wasn’t drunk, crying, etc, it wasn’t “taking advantage”)
I mean, maybe? “Don’t bang if she’s drunk and crying” seems like a really basic standard of human decency than anything else. For all his vaunted sex positivity, he was angry at Danny before he found out why he hadn’t slept with Billie (because God forbid a dude not want to have sex), and then completely dismissed him when Danny revealed his actual, legitimate reasons for not going through with it (that he wasn’t ready to sleep with someone so soon after Dorothy left him). Otherwise he:
– Cultivated an image of himself as something Joyce wanted so he could sleep with her.
– Had Sarah scream in his face to get him to stop hitting on her.
– Lifted his shirt when he first met Becky and described her as “tasty”.
– Loudly announced that he would have slept with Dorothy if she was so desperate as to stoop to kissing Walky.
He just comes off as a massive creep to me.
He’s exactly the kind of person I try to avoid. Cause he’s creepy and annoying.
I guess it depends on your perspective, theres more then a few characters on here that could come off as creepy and annoying
My perspective at least is I deal with enough of those types just walking down the street as a woman.
Yeah, it’s kinda… I’m glad Joe understands informed consent, and it puts him so far above the people I had toy deal with, but I can only enjoy Joe because I’m a hermit. If I ever spent time out when people are actually around, and didn’t work at such an incredibly majority-female place, I’d probably hate him too. Because yeah, even if I can have some confidence Joe wouldn’t rape me as an omniscient observer, I’m not an omniscient observer outside of fiction, and he’d be in a higher class of avoid than any Dumb that isn’t Joyce or Mary.
I would really want to keep away from Mike, irl
Spencer-
All of this.
Sarah also jumped from zero to screaming, because she’s Sarah and that’s how she works. And then he stopped hitting on her and she didn’t seem to mind his pressence after.
Sarah shouldn’t have had to yell at him. Joe should dial his shit down to the point where Sarah shouldn’t feel uncomfortable.
And then he tries to come off as some dogged nice guy who just wanted to harness her angry sex energy.
Like, literally the first thing he said to her in the entire comic was assuming that she’d be up for a threesome.
Sarah didn’t have to yell at all. She hadn’t simply asked him to stop, all evidence says that if she’d simply stated disinterest he’d have moved on, but she didn’t.
Spencer-
Pfft. Okay, that one legitimately had me laughing out loud. And it’s really really true. All of Joe’s interactions outside of Roz and Penny can be summarized as thus. His whole shtick is to barrage a woman with sexual advances or “game” until they either literally yell at him to stop or give in.
And he’s also the type of douche who is found of grabbing people without consent:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/05-saturdays-all-right-for-slighting/no/
The only women who have reacted negatively to Joe are Joyce, who literally went berserk at any sexual behaviour and physically assaulted him for looking at Connie, and Sarah, who is aggressively anti-social. Every other woman has been either either neutral or receptive to his advances.
Sierra in the panel does not look happy to be receiving that non-consensual touch. Also, women should not have to go “berserk” for their noes to be believed and respected. After all, there is a lot of social pressure on women to play nice and be respectful even when someone is mistreating you or violating your personal space. And the social consequences for being a firecracker can be intense, especially in mixed gender spaces.
They don’t have to, Joe has always stopped at no. Those instances were Joyce and Sarah going way overboard, especially Joyce.
If any guy other than my SO grabbed me like that they would get their teeth punched down their throat.
I thought his tagline was “Pre-marital hanky-panky!”
Pretty sure that’s a dick joke, not an advance that any sexually mature person would/could take seriously. If anything, he’s playing the class clown.
Why is the onus of taking it as a joke on Joyce or Leslie? Why can’t Joe just not say creepy shit?
Because he’s Joe. It’s literally his job here.
But creepy? Sigh-worthy sure, but… creepy?
There is no onus. Everyone is free to take it as they want to. That sed, it was sed jovially with a smile – usually those are human indicators for jokes. I mean look at his face in panel 4 – he’s nearly laughing.
Never forget Joe is walking bag of dick jokes. It’s exactly why he’s in the comic. Trying to think of him as a real person is to misinterpret what he is – a gag that developed a personality eventually, but he’s still a gag. As others mentioned, he’s basically Jonny Bravo.
Yes. Creepy. This shit happens all the time to women and it’s not charming. It’s offputting. It’s sometimes even threatening with the universality and unbidden nature of it. And it is almost always horrendously inappropriate.
And yet a lot of men think it’s “flirty” or important that we all be updated on the state of their bloody gonads. And it happens way more often if you’re femme-presenting, slight-bodied, look vulnerable, look young (like prepubescent: http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2015/04/11/in-creepy-reddit-megathread-thousands-of-women-recount-the-first-time-they-were-perved-on-by-a-grown-man/ ), or are visibly with a woman (no dudes, fuck off, we’re not interested in a threesome and if we were it most certainly would not be with you).
As you note, look at his face in panel 4. He’s nearly laughing. He thinks it’s great fun. He thinks he should be showered with praise for having the wit of a particularly slow-witted 5th grader.
Where’s anyone else’s laughter? Where’s anyone else’s enjoyment? Look at Leslie’s face at Panel 6, look at Joyce’s. How happy do they look to be being “treated” to this?
And so here’s my question to you, if a joke is only amusing to the joke teller, and it leads to utter misery, suffering, and exasperation for everyone else, is it really a “joke”? If it fits in with frequent oppression and offers nothing of value other than amusing the “joke” teller, is it so much a joke or is it more just another microaggression on a long list?
I’d argue, and I think most of the class would argue… it’s the latter.
Also, the central joke of Jonny Bravo is that a serial harasser constantly gets pummeled and fails in his quest because of his tendency to be that creepy douche when it comes to the pursuit of women. The point of Jonny Bravo is that he is unlikeable. That he is a complete douchenozzle and so watching him fail becomes enjoyment in its own right. He’s not the hero. He’s just the protagonist.
Joe is a parody.
Yes, if this where real it would be heavily inappropriate. But I can’t take Joe seriously enough for that to apply.
As for charming – it can be but only if you’re good friends with sed audience and they implicitly understand you’re making an ass of yourself.
That sed, Joe doesn’t really think in such lofty circles.
It’s like being mad at a child for spilling his food – you can do it, but poor thing doesn’t understand the ramifications of his actions. Joe is comically innocent of any and all potential harm he could be doing. Which is why it’s funny if he’s verbally put down but not if he’d be actually harmed.
Same can be sed for Jhonny Bravo – a character that will never understand he’s being socially inappropriate can get away with much more then one that does, because of his child-like innocence.
Jhonny is the hero when he’s given something he can actually understand and do properly – it’s also when we see he’s a good guy that cares about people’s feelings. It’s just that we don’t see that part too often because it’s hard to write him with some lick of depth and still remain true to the original joke. Plus he can be sympathetic in the right context. That sed, that show’s continuity was all over the place.
Back to the comment at hand:
“a lot of men think it’s “flirty” or important that we all be updated on the state of their bloody gonads” – yes, but those are the blatant idiots. You ignore those and never see them again. Perhaps a slap for good measure.
Yes, women are more often the target of such things then men are. That’s not to say it doesn’t happen to men under different circumstances. Though I’ll assume you mean that the physical threat is felt more strongly? I agree, but there’s also the fact that women aren’t helpless daisies. With enough grit a woman can punch-out a man. It’s simply a matter of the woman’s technique/fighting experience… or if she has a stunner. Oh, I shall mention that I, as a man, am always on my guard in society. It would be nice to live in a safe world where you don’t have to feel threatened, ever… but it’s not realistic. Sadly I won’t live to see it. Yet that feels far removed from Joe’s Joe-ing.
“no dudes, fuck off, we’re not interested in a threesome” – most people don’t understand the concept of a sexual spectrum and hold on to the old binary choice model (one that’s quite imaginary). This is getting better, but not everyone has the faculties to grasp such concepts. Sadly.
Though this is more of the same self-centered assholes that use catcalling, but even more delusional and insulting. Instinct is one thing, but it’s important to learn control over one’s instinct. They never got passed that part. Lost causes, sadly.
“Where’s anyone else’s laughter?” Off-panel? 😛 As for
Leslie and Joyce – fair enough, but it’s important to not
e Joe is trying to -help-. Ne has zero malice in him. Whi
ch is important. Actually, screw it, THAT IS WHAT MATTERS.
I might as well do a TL;DR here because I just discovered the essence of this entire argument: I assert that Joe is innocent and funny because he has no malice going into this – every single time. You seem to assert that his intentions don’t matter and what really matters are how he’s perceived. I only have a problem with such behavior IF there is malice present – crass disregard for your fellow man’s sorrow. If there’s no malice it’s misguided but – importantly – harmless.
TL;DR: I assert Joe has no malice in what he’s doing. In EVERYTHING he does. Hence he’s funny and not creepy. It’s also why he does get girls – he’s not an actual douchebag, he has no malice.
I dunno, it’s kind of a bad metaphor. I’m a teacher. My usual response to a student pulling a stunt like this is to pose with some feigned ignorance about how I can see where they think it’s funny, but I’m just so gosh-darned troubled by this societal context (proceed to explain the societal context of that action and its impact on others).
And that gets to the heart of the matter with regards to him “not knowing the ramifications of his actions”. He needs education. He is receiving said education.
He is actively rejecting, disrupting, and trying to otherwise avoid learning when it’s nicely carved out and laid on the plate for him.
He’s not a toddler, he’s a legal adult. It’s time for him to grow up.
And with regards to the rest:
“You ignore those and never see them again.”
I encounter them 3-4 times a week on average. Women who are more conventionally attractive encounter them much more frequently. And encounter their fair more dangerous variants (stalkers, et al) at about the frequency I do (my gf who has large breasts gets manhandled at least once every two weeks and acquires someone trying to tail her home or to work at least once a month and pretty much gets catcalled every single time she leaves her home).
“Yes, women are more often the target of such things then men are.”
Indeed they are.
“That’s not to say it doesn’t happen to men under different circumstances.”
That is true. But often at a much reduced frequency and with much reduced intensity. Or at least that’s what my life experiences have born out and what most studies on the subject reflect.
“With enough grit a woman can punch-out a man.”
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/11196-no-justice-when-women-fight-back
“Oh, I shall mention that I, as a man, am always on my guard in society.”
If you are a person of color, then yes, I totally feel that. If not, I suspect we have very different experiences of having to be on guard in society:
http://tdor.info/
“most people don’t understand the concept of a sexual spectrum and hold on to the old binary choice model (one that’s quite imaginary). This is getting better, but not everyone has the faculties to grasp such concepts. Sadly.
Though this is more of the same self-centered assholes that use catcalling, but even more delusional and insulting. Instinct is one thing, but it’s important to learn control over one’s instinct. They never got passed that part. Lost causes, sadly.”
This is awesome and I totally agree. I just wanted to say that because I feel I’ve been in disagreement a lot with you today and I feel it is necessary to counter that with giving you props where I feel we are very much on the same page.
“I might as well do a TL;DR here because I just discovered the essence of this entire argument: I assert that Joe is innocent and funny because he has no malice going into this – every single time. You seem to assert that his intentions don’t matter and what really matters are how he’s perceived.”
I think you are very much onto our fundamental disagreement. You believe that what matters most is that Joe intends no malice. He has no ill forethought and is just doing silly old Joe stuff and that should matter most. And that’s a valid viewpoint.
I believe that what matters most is the impact and context of his words and actions. His impact on others, his contributions to societal oppressions, and the negative way his words and actions affect others.
I’ll make no secret that I’ve never been a big fan of the theory that one’s intentions should mitigate or remove the negativity of one’s ill actions and one must accept the consequences of an action doing harm whether it be due to malice or earnest mistake.
But I think I understand more the perspective you are coming from and where we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Joe needs to know/read his audience better. There’s people that will laugh at his antics and others that will take offense. He has to figure out how to still be himself while not being a dick to people that don’t enjoy crass humor in the slightest. It’s not as easy as doing or not doing it – especially when it’s a part of who he is. I’m putting my trust in Joe here that eventually he’ll have the experience and wisdom to know how to make the right people laugh and avoid ones that don’t mesh at all with his personality.
In the mean time he gets to be verbally slapped by his detractors. It’s a compromise that works until he grows into his wisdom-beard.
“I encounter them 3-4 times a week on average.” – And they continue with the bs? You’d think as humans they’d be capable of gaining experience and improving, at the very least in one repeated event. I am sorry to hear that, Cerb. Only way I found to deal with it is grit my teeth and walk past. But I know how it’s like to be in similar situations, though in my case it was violence rather then sexually-themed.
Christ, the rest is more depressing. I mean… the fuck humanity. We’re better then this. Where do these troglodytes spring from? It can’t be that hard to get laid if you have no standards (I’m at least telling myself they have no standards so the irony doesn’t explode my damn brain). There are BARS for people that can’t fucking control themselves! Actually, never mind bars. I’ve heard of plenty of public toilette’s where you can go to fuck random people if you can’t keep it in your pants – for both genders.
WHY oh WHY do some insist on being such… GAH, I’ll fucking punch a wall if I keep thinking about these dickwaffles!
In regards to the “No Justice When Women Fight Back” article, I shall… no, fuck civilized speech. This is the point where I note that I am all in fucking favor for the death penalty for premeditated rapists, repeated assault offenders and a whole host of other subhuman scum of the earth. Or at the very least cut off their fingers. Give me a damn pair of scissors and we’ll be done in a month. Gods damn it does it piss me off when someone innocent is mistreated, be it by a system or by other people. I expect it, but it’s still anger-inducing.
I’d at least like to think over here the system is a bit different and in days past I would at least have a shot at revenge, even if in a quite corrupt-police fashion.
That sed, revenge is all you can realistically hope for. The law over here is getting more fair and maybe eventually it’ll be acceptably fair.
However besides the justice of my own tongue and my own fists I don’t really trust in any other forms of justice. Would be lovely, but I wouldn’t count on it. It may have something to do with having to fend for myself in a very hostile climate.
*cools off* *sighs* Sad tales to be sure. Though the worst part is not all of them managed to kill sed asshat that started it. Ofc, once you do that you’re pretty boned as well, but revenge is it’s own reward. Then again, two out of the three did get out via proper judicial process. 2 out of 3 is better then I’d expect. The third still has a shot. Hope she makes it.
I’m not of color, but my formative years have made me quite skittish when walking alone in secluded areas. Conversely, I get quite protective and perhaps foolhardily brave when walking along side women. Innate urge to protect, I suppose.
As for /having/ to be on guard – probably not. I’m more likely to be the one that others would be afraid of, even if I have the temperament of a housecat. But it’s not something I can just logic away. It’s something I simply have to deal with.
Though, you never know what asshole might think he can pull a knife on you.
Also, I red that list. Brazil is about 70% of it and ~15% in the US. Considering Brazil’s ridiculous crime levels and religious zealotry having a tight grip on gangs… I’m not surprised. It’s sad, but it’s not surprising. Except just how brutal some of those killings where (face RIPPED OFF?! Burned? WTF is this shit… it’s 2016 now. Damnit, people.). Then again, I can think of worse things to do to those cowardly murderers, so let’s not dwell on that note for too long – abyss staring back and such. On the other hand, I feel that wroth is a virtue rather then a ‘sin’. Wroth is important if you where wronged. It teaches evil shits not to mess with innocents lest they mess with the wrong one. Fear is something malice-filled scum understand more then laws. Gah, sorry, I’ll bottle my rage back up again – this really isn’t the place (don’t want to scare away people from ze comments).
“I feel it is necessary to counter that with giving you props where I feel we are very much on the same page” – D’awww. See, I knew we could find something we’d both agree on! 😛 Though it’s a pity it’s not something happier… like ponies… then again, it’s also more important then ponies (for as much as I love them).
“But I think I understand more the perspective you are coming from” – as do I now of yours!
You know, now that we’ve cut to the heart of the issue we can indeed shake hands and agree to disagree. We understand each other’s viewpoint (to a satisfactory degree, at least) and that’s more then we had when we started.
It’s pretty much all you can ask from a long debate – at least when both parties are as fired up as we seem to be about our respective sides. 😛
Just know you’re always invited to this side of the river for visits. I literally have cookies, it being New Year’s and all.
Speaking of which, I do wish you truly Happy New Year!
Also I’ll take this opportunity to apologize to anyone who thought we where in a flamewar or felt uncomfortable because of our debate.
I do hope you don’t mind I took the liberty and sed ‘our’ instead of speaking solely about myself. Took the both of us to do this and I imagine from the outside this might seem… /too/ heated.
Personally I enjoy a good heated debate, but I realize it’s not to everyone’s tastes and I don’t enjoy making others uncomfortable, even by mistake.
Still, we both had to speak our peace and everything worked out in the end, eh?
And here’s ^ where I keep thinking of a Yelling Bird joke – one that I shall tastefully not make because I respect your opinions and understand crass humor isn’t to everyone’s liking.
Now if only Joe could follow in my glorious footsteps he’d be quite a bit closer to achieving a meaningful relationship that would give him more pleasure and joy de vivre then all his one night stands combined (saying this because other Joe’s have shown this, hence likely true for this Joe as well).
Tootles Cerb! Keep being yourself, you are appreciated. Yes, I know you don’t need my approval, but damnit it had to be sed! 🙂
Tootles DoA comment section for today. I’m REALLY tired now.
PISS! I just realized I forgot to tell my second former fiancée Happy New Year! I even got a cellphone package specifically in order to call her (she’s in UK, I’m in Romania). Bah, at least I know she won’t mind… still… HUMBUG!
*exit stage left*
Do you really think that Willis is just using Joe as a innocent “dick joke” provider with no larger purpose when he purposefully put him into the gender studies class? He may be a dick joke character, but his role in this comic is precisely what we’re talking about here. He’s the bad, but not actually evil, example.
This isn’t an accident. Willis knows what he’s doing.
Well, he -started- as exactly that. He grew up eventually, but this incarnation still hasn’t gotten his wisdom-beard yet.
He started as exactly that when Willis’s skills were much less and his attitudes very different.
Then a much more mature and more aware Willis took a very similar character and chose to put him into the gender studies class. That wasn’t just a place to make jokes. Willis is actually interested in dissecting these gender roles and attitudes. That’s why we see this class. And why Joe is in it. Why Roz is in it too, for that matter.
Of course DYW knows what he is doing. That he has this happening in a gender studies class with Joyce and Leslie is no accident.
Now, a text is always a collaboration between the author and the reader (as an author, reader and librarian, I favor this). But this is not a gag a day strip. If Joe is making a dick joke, it serves the narrative. The narrative isn’t served by a gag a day (ha ha gag and dick jokes), so this fits in with DYW larger story. The lengths one needs to go to make the opposite case is evidence of the weakness of that argument.
I’m actually of the opinion that this is a narrative strip that has strong gag-a-day elements as well. May be a broad definition of the term, but in many strips not ending on a cliffhanger, there is often some form of strip-contained joke.
Bro, I’m gonna let you in on a little secret–when you constantly talk about your dick and wanting us ladies to get on it, it tends to get a lil bit stale.
Ofc it does. That’s half of the joke! It’s self-depreciating humor as much as it is machismo.
You basically just explained the joke. Though in this comic it’s inverted as somehow, magically, Joe does actually get some.
…except in this case, it’s clearly not self-deprecating because, as you noted, Joe does get laid and actually does think he’s all that. Even if it were, dude–just shut up about your penis, literally no one wants to keep hearing about it.
But I like hearing about his penis! It’s like an old friend from a simpler, more greyscale time.
I don’t think anyone doubts it. Nor is anyone saying differently, from what I can see. What people are saying is that Joe’s narcissistic and generally tasteless behaviour is just a cause for scorn and dismissal, not the denunciations of evil that we’re seeing her.
Amen.
Maybe Leslie should get a quarter jar and fine people for tasteless jokes.
Joe would be like, “How much for a semester subscription?”
Wow Joe now is not the time I mean for God’s sake.
Speaking about time happy new year’s
Perhaps, it is -precisely- the right time!
I’m sad about Joyce’s attitude being so poor but you gotta admit that was a pretty sick retort.
Yikes. Joyce is just a couple of degrees of blond and a nickel away from morphing into Mike.
Joe and Johnny Bravo – separated at birth? Discuss.
Yes.
If we give him a pair sunglasses,some hairgel(and maybe some horse shampoo to make his hair grow and be able to model it) annnnnd we got 2 twins separated at birth.
Wait… horse shampoo makes your hair grow? This explains so much!
Good on Joe for lightning the mood also Joyce is a lot better now that shes not coming off like the energizer bunny
1) I don’t think Joe was really trying to lighten the move. I read that as him walking in on Leslie’s “move on to a new unit” and just throwing his joke out there. He’s standing in the door.
2) Joyce is better now that she’s visibly traumatized and miserable? Great.
I sort of meant lightning the mood for the readers by using a dumb joke and I’m meaning that since Joyce has calmed down (may not be the best word for it) she may well be more receptive to learning new thought processes and beliefs
Joyce is definitely not better. Joyce getting better would have been Joyce being less of a bigot without having to be utterly broken emotionally by massive moral dissonance and trauma. Ideally Joyce could have been just as unnervingly perky while also not being a socially inept fundamentalist.
But then there’s no growth.
Joyce isn’t utterly broken. Joyce is certainly hurt and traumatized, but I have faith in her. She will overcome this. She’s not better now, but she’ll get better and she’ll be a better person for it.
It just hurts right now.
Y’know, change can come just from meeting new ideas, agreeing with them, and letting them slowly percolate into your worldview. Heck, it’s how most of the change you don’t even notice happens to you.
Sooooo am I the only person that actually likes Joe? He’s a simple dude that’s figured out what he wants, even if it is an incredibly shallow goal. He’s not really hurting anyone, just being kinda obnoxious.
I like Joe, hes a good counterpoint to the rest of the males on the cast and I’d like to see him get some more personal growth happening, theres been hints of it through his limited appearances and I’d like to see more
He’s rarely actively hurting anyone, but his dismissive and self-centered attitude makes him an active participant in a lot of subtler social bigotry and microaggressions. For example, the way he loudly proclaimed that he sexualized lesbians and tried to steer the conversation away from Leslie’s lesson on LGBT discrimination simply because having to acknowledge real LGBT issues made him uncomfortable.
This, so much this.
He’s… a representation of a frequent problem that frequently affects women. A microcosm of a particular set of microaggressions that ask women to put themselves “on guard” around men even though the onus should be on the men who act this way to not be creepy little shits.
He may never hold someone down, but he contributes to a general society that makes people’s lives just generally worse and is often the source of a lot of casual microaggressions, especially with his constant fetishization of lesbians (or rather of mainstream porn depictions of lesbians).
A representation, at worst, maybe. Your last paragraph is what really confuses me here. ‘He contributes to a general society that makes people’s lives just generally worse’. I’m not entirely sure that this is the case. Joe doesn’t contribute to that kind of society that much at all, really. As I mentioned earlier, Joe’s very vocal about consent and a MUTUALLY ENJOYABLE EXPERIENCE.
His ‘fetishization’, as you put it, is actually easy to deconstruct into jokes. HARMLESS jokes, and nothing less.
As I have ALSO previously mentioned, Joe’s ‘fetish’ and joke strips are usually one in the same. And by that, I mean that they’re BOTH jokes. In-universe and out. It’s obvious that with a few exceptions, MAINLY Joyce and Dorothy (Billie to an extent), most people know that what he’s saying isn’t to be taken seriously at all. Again, he’s hardly a harasser and at worse he catcalls on occasion.
I think the views on Joe’s actions are way too black/white right now, so I’m trying to make a persuasively ‘grey’ argument here.
Harassment and oppression are frequently dismissed as jokes: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24320146
This despite the fact that said cultures created by the jokes contribute to general feelings that said cultures are unsafe, physically dangerous, or otherwise painful. And this contributes to an increased rate of suicide for affected populations.
Pardon, but where does oppression come into this at all? I’m focusing entirely on the jokes that Joe has cracked in the strip so far, and I don’t think anything he’s done could be viewed as ‘oppression’. So, I mean, I’m not sure where you’re coming from with that.
Moving on, you say that they’re ‘frequently dismissed as jokes’. I’m not going to disagree with you on that, if not simply because it’s true in the real world. But those last two words are the kicker when talking about Joe. ‘Real world’. Thing is, as I’ve previously stated, Joe’s jokes are almost ALWAYS taken (and meant) at face value. Face value being as jokes.
All this culture talk, while very well talked about in your arguments, actually doesn’t mean much in this particular instance. Again, while you raise good points, this is a joke strip. It’s also obvious in-universe that it’s a harmless joke, as far as we know and can judge at this point. Therefore, I don’t think that culture really has much to do with this specific debate.
Furthermore, I don’t see suicide happening at all in response to Joe’s wisecracks and innuendos. They seriously seem harmless, and since Word of God and in-universe sources say so, it’s obvious that Joe WILL BACK OFF before it comes to that. He backed off on Joyce, Sarah, and a few others (whose names I forget, help me out here) when they said no.
Seeing as those were far ‘worse’ instances of Joe saying potentially offensive things, I don’t think that we can factor in suicide as a viable risk at all. At least, not as a result of what Joe says.
I repeat, stop being so black/white on this. This is a morally grey issue, and the fact that everyone is saying what Joe is doing is either ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ just isn’t valid at this point.
I quite like Joe, actually. He’s harmless and hopefully he’ll develop on similar lines as he did in other Willis comics and show more of his chivalrous streak as well as his bravery and kindness. Heck, the man actually has potential for real drama and romance! It’s just buried. Deeply. Under a lot of dick jokes. But it’s hopefully still there. Probably.
I don’t hate Joe or anything. He sometimes has the right of it, like explaining to Danny why he was being patronizing in regards to when Billie came onto him, though ultimately it’s for the best Danny didn’t go through with it.
I have a theory that Joe’s popularity is proportional to the DoA fandom’s hatred of Danny. Joe support is at it’s highest when he’s the straight man to Danny (no pun intended). Joe support is at it’s lowest when Danny is the more sane one.
I just totally love their character dynamic since they’re both emotionally undeveloped in completely different ways.
I like Joe and don’t understand all the sexual harassment accusations. We dont actually see that much of the guy outside of his dorm room and picking up women who generally seem into him. The only thing that seems to make his sexuality more abrasive than Roz’s is that he jokes about it and he’s male.
Maybe I’m missing some big issue here, but we see him make maybe one or two jokes in a class that seems to deal with sexuality about sexuality, specifically his sexuality. Heck we don’t even know if he’s like this everyday with every topic. Its not like we sit in on every class. Generally he seems pretty respectful of women’s sexual autonomy even when somewhat indiscriminate in his flirting. As far as I can tell he doesn’t distract any more than any of the other mains.
And the way I see it saying he’s directing the joke at Leslie or Joyce, especially Joyce, specifically, is a bit of a stretch. He’s certainly using Leslie’s statement as a spring board for his joke but he’s directing it at the room, and either the room is being harrassed or its not. Also why should he be tiptoing around the person who has assaulted, insulted, and threatened him? Occaisionally for behavior which has noting to do with her except that she’s in the area. He’s a horndog, but he’s a pretty straightforward and harmlessness
It isn’t slut shaming if it’s true.
Pretty sure he’s just mock-offended here. Joe’s quite proud of his manslut status, after all. I submit panel 4&5 as evidence.
I mean yeah it absolutely is.
Did…did Joyce just owned Joe? Wow.”claps”
In this case, Joe is both the dick joke we deserve, as well as the dick joke we need right now.
I laughed.
Good start in the New Year.
Can I just say I love these comments sections? This is one of the few places on the internet where I can trust the comments to have more good opinions than bad ones.
I’ve always like how a whole bunch of people can look at the same comic and come up with numerous different opinions, makes it more intersting
Usually, maybe not so much yesterday.
…:(
Dare I ask what happened yesterday? I’m scared to look.
Remember the original incident that led to the bongo filter?
The exchange between Leslie and Roz yesterday reopened the whole debate about who was how much justified then.
I KNEW there was a reason why I didn’t scroll down to the comment section yesterday via sheer instinct. Had I done so, all my New Year’s plans would have been eaten by what ate sed plans today.
I am glad that I didn’t participate in the comments section at all back during the initiating bongo incident (and am still not clear on what it was and also don’t care), and also glad that I was too busy yesterday to read the comments. Hurray for drama-avoidance! (although I guess there was some today too)
I’m sitting here trying to understand why everyone is talking about sexual consent when I didn’t see any sexual advances. All I saw was a facetious proposition to discuss Joe’s penis.
I think people are reading more into Joe’s comment than is warranted.
I agree, we all have biases based on our own personal experiences so people use these characters to prove/disprove what they believe
Nice comeback, Joyce. XD
Wowzer! Joyce just delivered a zinger! A zinger! Somewhere, Mike Warner is feeling inexplicably aroused!
If this was shortpack you probably would’ve seen a panel of Mike commenting on that.
In all the world, I don’t think Joe is the worse thing, there is/are so much/many more. Possibly one of the most annoying. He certainly seems to have no self esteem problems apparently.
Joe has had a bit of character development, and it amounted to, he’s Walky without the pants.
Walky acts totally goofy, he doesn’t want responsibility. No one takes him seriously, and he’s happy. (Until Dorothy recently discovered him).
Joe acts like a walking sex ad, because he doesn’t want responsibility. He knows he’s not taken seriously, I think. He doesn’t really care. He gets what he wants and he’s happy.
They are both immature. But neither one of them are mean, dangerous, or a real problem. Imo.
The last panel made me laugh. A real score making me laugh at both Joyce’s great burn, and Joe’s total shock at the comeback.
I laughed, and if you didn’t, you’re a damn liar.
I submit as a case study, Roz yesterday, Joe today. Both have access to the same information with regards to Joyce’s state and need to take off a class for emotional recovery. Both have recently had massive negative interactions with Joyce in the past that has impacted their relationships.
And so yesterday, we see Roz’s response. A somewhat measured humility, utter dismay at being considered to be the type of “monster” as she put it who would kick Joyce when she’s been through all this. Who has grown and understands the social cost of her previous miscalculation and who also has introspected about what in her caused her to go too far previously. It’s the response one would expect from an activist who genuinely cares but can spin off the rails at times when she gets on a rant.
And in counterpoint. We’ve got Joe. Joe points to his dick. Joe basks in privilege and his douchiness and goes after the person who’s been through the most and is the most utterly done with his shit that exists. Joe is the “monster” in Roz’s parlance who would in fact go there with Joyce after all she’s been through and who would have that much disrespect for Leslie and the other students in the class, both as students and as human beings.
And as an additional case study, we can see comment thread responses. And how much crap Roz still gets compared to Joe and we can muse and wonder about what possible factor, perhaps relating to gender, may provide us the clues to why the responses fall the way they do.
The real gender studies class was inside
usthe comments section all alongReading this comment section is really getting me down to be honest. I have no idea why people think anything Joe does is okay.
Societal sexism, “boys will be boys” culture, general minimization of the inappropriateness of things like street harassment, PUA nonsense, and mistreatment of others, general privilege affecting perception of misbehavior by those who reflect more common social values, and a few other things I haven’t bothered to mention.
Or at least that’s my guess. My bitter, bitter guess.
Both react with their respective defense mechanisms, Roz deflects to a different topic, Joe tries to rob the subject matter of it’s seriousness. Joe is unfortunately loud in his defensiveness, which is admittedly more annoying and likely to disturb someone.
Honestly, I would have said there was all that could be said about the discussion that needed. Leslie asked Roz not to be a dick to Joyce. Roz was was hurtat the line of questioning, but reaffirmed she wasn’t going to be a dick. Leslie expressed relieve and snarked.
I’m still not convinced Joe was actually targeting Joyce there. Just responding to hearing Leslie’s “move on to a new unit” as he walked in.
Still out of line, but more disruptive to the whole class rather than focused on Joyce.
It would be interesting to see Roz react to this though. We’ve seen her attack Joyce for her prejudices, it would be nice to see her target Joe for some of his.
Yeah, this seems much more like a case of Joe’s inability to pass up an opportunity for crude innuendo. It’s still rude and disruptive but it’s not like a direct attack on Joyce or anything.
I still agree with what Roz did in the earlier class, trying to force Joyce to confront that the ideals she spouts aren’t in a vacuum.
I didn’t read any humilty in the last strip though. She felt attacked, and responded with incredulity that she would ever do something that might hurt someone else’s feelings. And then she appealed to the idea that her intentions, her passion, mean that her actions are always going to be positive and justified.
Her follow up that she’s not on friendly terms with Leslie is completely ridiculous. Even with your peers you’re gonna get into situations where they might have to check you for your behaviour, that doesn’t mean you stop being friends; it’s going to happen even moreso if you attempt to befriend authority figures. What Leslie did is like the bare level of responsibility considering how Roz’s last interaction with Joyce went from her perspective. Once again, though, Roz reacted as if she already knew the answer and was thus being inconvenienced by having someone ‘attempt to’ teach her.
Also, the Robin call out was a weird power play that I don’t appreciate at all.
The only part of her response I appreciate is where she acknowledges that Joyce has been through a lot, but even that is more from the angle of defense than understanding. ‘I already know Joyce has been through a lot, so why are you trying to tell me’, rather than ‘I know we both know Joyce has been through a lot, so I appreciate your concern.’
But I get that no one likes to be made to feel like they did something wrong, or that they might do something wrong. I understand the reaction and I’m still behind Roz and her beliefs, but her disrespect for Leslie as a teacher is gross and that strip demonstrated a lot of that.
Speaking of disrespect for Leslie and her class, there’s Joe!
Not necessarily humility, more that she knows that Joyce isn’t a state to actually put up with that again.
Also Roz and Joyce came to a quasi-understanding, and I do think Roz took Leslie’s shutdown, how Roz was actively ignoring a member of the group she was so concerned with defending, fairly seriously.
Yeah, I agree. I guess in response to Kraken, I feel her apology was what I usually see in my students when they fuck up and they’ve acknowledged that they fucked up, but they still got their pride and so want me to know where they were coming from when they fucked up.
Honestly, I’ll take that any day of the week over the “oh, yes, whatever, let me tell you what you want to hear and instantly forget this stuff”.
Pointing out where one’s motivation is coming from isn’t self-justification, though? Defending one’s integrity isn’t saying “I’ve never been wrong ever”?
Honestly I took Roz’s comment about “I’m not a MONSTER” yesterday as her playing the victim but what do I know. I guess my point is I don’t like Roz OR Joe and gender to me is irrelevant.
Always, always hated Joe. He’s a representation of the kind of person I wanted to be like when I was a teen. It makes me sick.
Yeah, he kinda is toxic masculinity in a nutshell. Or rather the “nice” face of it. The good “sex-poz” type of dude who’ll talk a good game about basic level stuff while still being a complete sex-obsessed douchebro.
Which might be another level to my dislike of him. He’s what people wanted me to be and what they turned violent about because I refused to even be on the pitch of that sick sick game (being ace and trans even when not knowing it in “good ol’ boy” territory… seriously would not recommend).
I mean he’s still the better side of toxic masculinity from the “abusive, angry, violent, dominance obsessed” side. Like I’ll take entry level sex-positivity and iffy recognition of social boundaries over treating women like objects and trans people like traitors and freaks. He’s still an inappropriate douche but he’s the least bad kind of douche IMO.
He’s very definitely on the “treating women like objects” side of that social boundary. Lists & ratings?
There are certainly worse though.
I think I’m ‘softer’ on Joe than I would be otherwise as a result of having met his father. (To get what I mean, compare Joe hitting on Sarah with what his father does on Parents’ weekend)
Joe’s dad is absolutely a disgusting pervert, and it’s a good sign that Joe can at the least recognize that his behaviour is embarrassing, but then he verbally hounds after Sarah anyway the day later.
Is it as bad? I don’t think so, but then it’s not really my call and I don’t think it’s something Sarah really needs to put up with in the first place.
Wow…
Reading the comments, I’m beginning to think I’m the only one who enjoys Joe’s humor.
I mean, he’s got a point.
Shame it’s frequently mishandled, terribly ineffective, and overdone.
Shame he’s an idiot teenager who doesn’t know how to express himself or his feelings properly or constructively.
I was honestly just making a dick joke. 😉
It fell flaccid. I mean flat.
(shhh, I’m tired, I don’t need to make sense. Take this cookie and forget I was ever here. It’s got chocolate!)
Nice!
Oh, I did not get that. Carry on then.
I do when it’s in the right context but this is far from that. Like his kidding around with Danny is usually pretty funny and I enjoy their dynamic but this kind of class clown stuff isn’t really my cup of tea.
Wow Joyce just cold-answered about sex.
Oh, for fucks sake. It’s a silly joke. Could everybody calm the fuck down?
But Joe needs to be punished for his sins
Or it’s an illustrative example of a common microaggression and frequent social nuisance.
Quite possibly it is, we can also read something into anything if we try hard enough
Or if we’ve experienced it over. And over. And over. And over… ad infinitum.
It is not a particular stretch to see an unfortunately common thing some of us regularly deal with and which is not uncommon among men like Joe in spaces like gender studies classes.
And that is probably why a goodly number of people are seeing a thing you regard as “we can read something into anything if we try hard enough”. I would like to submit a hypothesis that someone reading something into anything is unlikely to occur frequently in the same exact way at the same exact time among multiple people at this frequency.
So instead, we must look to why a number of people are reading this particular something into this situation.
Good point, I have no real experience of this kind of behavior so I’m probably seeing it as just a poorly thought out joke with no malice intended
Others based on their experiences can probably recognize other undertones
I think we’re very much in agreement there.
To be honest, it probably is a “poorly thought out joke with no malice intended”. An awful lot of the “boys will be boys”, lower level hostile environment kind of sexual harassment is.
That doesn’t mean it’s alright.
If you’re seriously using the “You’re just reading too much into things” argument, I’m not sure if this is the right comic to be reading.
But thats too me whats so enjoyable about this comic, people read what they want into any situation
Think of the people taking sides when Roz first had it out with Joyce or when Danny does just about anything or even Billie and Ruth
I quite enjoy reading peoples different takes on whats happening here
I big thing with dramedies is that it throws your application of values and mores out of kilter because generally people are lot less more lax in their judgement of behaviour in a comedic setting then they are in a dramatic one so constantly shifting gears between them ends up with people just saying “fuck it” and viewing the whole thing through a serious and analytical lens.
Given that the most prolific poster in the comments is using a handle that’s literally the TVTropes term for something silly being suddenly treated as far more serious than any reasonable person should regard it… chances are that “reading too much into it” is not just what’s up, but that it’s entirely intentional on that poster’s part.
Everyone has their hobbies, I guess.
Point of order…
1) That’s Cerebus Syndrome, not Cerberus Syndrome (though, to be fair, Cerebus would be named Cerberus, had Simm not made a typo).
2) That’s…not actually what Cerebus Syndrome is. That’s a matter of the evolution of the work, not the reading of it. That is, it follows the path that Cerebus the Aardvark did from a not particularly serious gag series to a more serious plotty one.
As Captain Button said, Cerebus started out as a silly barbarian parody. Rapidly became both brilliant and hysterical. And then took a dive into misogyny and other related craziness, including Sim’s new interpretation of the old Testament. While still being brilliantly written – just offensive and creepy as hell.
Regardless – High Society, Church & State and in a different way Jaka’s Story remain some of the best comics of all time. Absolutely worth reading.
I’m….not sure what part of my post that was supposed to be contradicting or expanding.
I thought Cerberus was named after Hades’ three headed guard dog.
Also I haven’t been on TV Tropes in forever but that’s not what Cerebus syndrome describes. (Also Dumbing of Age has been a mix of drama and comedy from the start. The drama was established in like the fourth or fifth strip)
Cerebus was a very successful comic book where the main character was supposed to be named Cerberus after the mythological dog, but the author spelled it wrong until it was too late to change.
It started off as a silly Conan parody, but later got into all sorts of serious stuff about politics, economics, and religion. That’s what Cerebus Syndrome refers to.
(Further on, the comic went way off the deep end into insane levels of misogynistic rants, but that is another very appalling story.)
I never thought there would be Dave Sim talk on the DoA comments.
Cerebus is one of those things on my “I want to check it out but the writer is an actual human piece of shit” list. Like why I don’t check out any Earthworm Jim stuff anymore.
@Captain Button
I know what Cerebus is. I was just pointing out that Cerberus was probably not naming herself after Cerebus.
@Spencer
I’ve heard that over time the comic became more and more a vessel for Sims’s views. Though since it didn’t start out like that maybe some parts are worth looking into? I know very little about it admittedly, other than Sims later on espousing pretty awful views about women.
@Lord Stoneheart, my reading guide for Cerebus:
Definitely good stuff: Cerebus through Jaka’s Story (issues 1-136)
Good stuff with some creepiness: Melmoth through Women (issues 139-174)
Creepiness starts at 10 and bounces around between 5 and 10. Worth it if you can stomach the subtext: Reads through Form and Void (issues 175-265) (Issue 186 at the end of Reads is the Wham! issue where the descent into the abyss starts.)
Creepiness up to 11: Latter Days and The Last Day (issues 266-300) Avoid unless you are so caught up that you just can’t stop.
(I screwed up the italics in places, sorry.)
One, that’s Cerebus. The poster’s name is Cerberus. Two, that’s not what the term means. It’s about when a silly story actually changes and becomes serious, not about how the audience regards it. Consider that perhaps Cerberus actually means what they say, instead of dismissing them based on your assumptions about their username?
I find it sad that society has “evolved” (de-evolved more like it) to the point where a poster’s username is more likely to be recognised as a stupid internet thing rather than the original mythological being.
*throws hands up into the air, wanders off*
You’re complaining on the internet about ‘an internet thing’…which is actually a ‘print’ thing which started in 1977.
De-evolution isn’t a real thing. Except when time-travel is involved… which also isn’t a real thing as far as we know.
Ofc, this is me being pedantic for the sake of it… well, no, rather it’s me being pedantic to perhaps educate those that don’t realize de-evolution isn’t a real process even though I’m sure Dragon_Nataku fully knows this.
*backwards time-travel
I will confirm what the others have said. I chose my nym over a decade ago and it was in reference to greek mythology not Dave Sim’s work.
If there was one word from the New Left Lexicon * , that deserves retiring for being oxymoronic 1984-style ‘NewSpeak’ Its “microaggression” .
TLDR; dont like it.
* “Slut-shaming” on the otherhand is fine new term, as its doubly-ironic.
It both disarms the word ‘slut’ of its power, endorses sex-positivity, and simultaneously counter-shames the finger wagging hypocrites. Any word that hard-working, earns its space in the dictionary .
As someone who has suffered actual macro-aggressions including state-sanctioned violence , I would like the word “Microaggression” to die.
Microaggression an actual ‘microagression’ to survivors of violence.
And its Just terrible English. English has one of the the richest lexicons drawing from almost 10 major languages. We dont need no stinkin newspeak. Oldspeak is a deep well.
We have ‘slight’ , ‘snub’ ‘indignity’ ‘insult’, ‘back-handed compliment’ ‘snide remark’ , ‘outrage’ ‘rudeness’ ‘offend’, ‘affront’ , aspersion , ‘malign’
We have , disparaging , belittling, derogatory, deprecatory, pejorative; derision, scorn, spurn , contempt, disdain, jibe, burn, cap , scamp
We have defamatory, slanderous, scurrilous, contumelious **
( ** I had to look up Contumelious. Point stands. Its worth looking up words instead of using that one )
Microaggression is a fatuous , sneering a self-contradictory, pomposity.
I look at my scars and think “fuckyou microaggression” and a wish a word could feel real pain.
In the case of Joe here, its an innapropriate dick-joke. Its textbook “sexual harassment” .
Words like ‘aggression’ ‘rape’ ‘violence’ and ‘kill’ have actual meanings.
Im tired of our Clickbaity, Branding-tested, euphemistic , Ad-worded, superlative slunk, marketing skunk Kafee-klatch excuse of a pretend-kulture, abusing them as lame metaphors .
The first rule of Thesaurus Club is that you do not talk, articulate, babble, broach, chant, chat, chatter, comment on, communicate, confess, converse, describe, divulge, drawl, drone, express, flap one’s tongue, gab, babble, give voice to, gossip, influence, intone, notify, palaver, parlay, patter, persuade, prate, prattle, pronounce, reveal, rhapsodize, run on, say, sing, soliloquize, speak, spill the beans, spout, squeak, squeal, talk one’s leg off, tell, tell all, use, utter, ventriloquize, verbalize, voice or yak about Thesaurus Club!
It’s a perfectly fitting description for casual acts of prejudice.
This.
None of the words you used captures the essence of “the accumulation of small things that are easily dismissed by outsiders when you try and point them out, but nonetheless accumulate in debilitating ways that reinforce one’s second-class personhood and make one feel alien, wrong, and unwanted in society”.
It’s the “but I’m not touching you” of societal oppression.
Oh joy, another butthurt, whiney WIERD. It’s like, the 27th this week?
Rule 1984 of the Internet:
If somebody compares something to Newspeak, it will, invariably, be a recent coinage created in order to allow for easier discussion of concepts ignored or reviled by the orthodoxy, which is literally, 100% exactly the opposite of what Newspeak is.
Good/fun observation.
The reasoning as to why is quite simple:
A) Because few actually saw 1984 or know it’s premise enough to properly use it, so it’s common usage defaults to what the word can be broken down to mean – new+speak = new speech, never mind that’s only the surface of the word and stripped from it’s context and actual meaning.
B) Mostly everyone knows that ‘Newspeak’ was ‘evil/bad’, so it’s being used to emphasize personal grievances within language to give more oomph to a rather common ‘I hate this word’.
Point A and point B together mean people will likely use the term to refer to new words they hate or feel are detrimental in some fashion, original subtext notwithstanding.
This noted, it’s a common enough convention/practice where it’s message is understood even by people that saw 1984 so it is a valid way to use the word, just one that strayed far far away from it’s original meaning.
There are many words in English/other languages that come from similar backgrounds.
Joe died for our sins.
And because he heard succubi were hot. To be honest, mostly that.
He’d be right. They are hot! Even literally as some are on fire.
Sadly very few are good wife material. But there are exceptions!
thank you
So I went back and reread the first few dozen comics for some reason, and one of them was this one:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/comics/2010-09-27-pizza.png
That look on Sarah’s face…
If Sarah can scare everyone else and Ruth scares Sarah, who scares Ruth?
Sal
and losing Billie
Billie
insert kelso BURN!
I’m amused that as soon as Joyce hits back, Joe starts whining to teech.
I’m like 99% he was mostly joking with that. I highly doubt Joe *actually* thinks Joyce is “slut shaming” him. He does look a bit surprised, but that might be mostly because Joyce of all people is the one making that comeback.
I’m guessing it was a callback on his part to ‘remind’ her about what he (and Roz) thought of her commentary the last time she had a problem with how many places his dick has been: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/pmhp/
I’m also amused by the number of defensive comments abt Joe’s behaviour as opposed to any number of snide comments on Ambers bhaviour towards men, say. Or even Joyce the manbeater, to take a memorable example from these pages. Nice girls dont fight rapists, apparently.
Joe in this universe is an arsehole. Even if his comment is a ‘joke’, its still the sort of whiney arsehole joke MRAs, or whiney arseholes as theyre usually called, might make.
Everyone condemning Joe is pretty much right IMO, but I still almost can’t believe this strip of all things started a flame war.
I mean, I can, especially considering where Joyce is at right now, but he’s demonstrated far worse behavior early on in the strip when he went on that “date” with Joyce, but no one…… oh, right, she hired a guy to punch him in the face repeatedly. That’s probably why.
There’s no flame war here. Just a little passionate debate! Only kind worth having in the end – mainly because a mellow debate usually births nothing new and an actual flame war simply entrenches everyone in whatever position they started with.
Yet, passion fuels new ideas, or at the very least understanding more of the other person’s position by the end of it.
not gonna lie, totally read that as “melon debate” for some reason.
And then promptly imagined a lot of people shouting the names of their favourite melons while lobbing them at eachother.
KABOCHA! *launch*
BITTER MELON! *toss*
CHEESECAKE! *fling*
*whistle blows* DISQUALIFIED FOR USING THE WRONG KIND OF FOOD!
That’s AMAZING! Thank you for that image! xD
It is one of the frequently observed paradoxical laws of the Internet that the biggest flamewars come from the stuff you toss off casually, not from the stuff you carefully craft on a subject you know to be controversial.
This reminds me of the Great Pony Flamewar of 2010! Ahh, the stories! Good yet persecuted times!
You may also be interested to note me and Cerberus have reached a singularity of mutual understanding and rainbows – something we couldn’t have achieved without being passionate and honest about our positions.
As long as people give each other a measure of respect, all shall be well in such matters.
Happy new Year!!! 😀
Joe, if you are serious about the slut-shaming, you need to join the slut-walks and get your “unit” out. ^_^
You know that he would, right?
He would lead that parade with a baton, while creeping on the two girls next to him
Yo, don’t slut shame with ‘creeping’. Dude is just interested in sex and is upfront about it. A woman who was that straight forward about what she wanted would be celebrated, and is basically half the point of slut-walks in the first place
please dont tell me joyce (my least favourite) will start dating mike (MY FAV)
FWIW, Joyce/Mike is my OTP. It is certainly the only pairing that I seriously considered for my DoA fan-fiction!
i mean id be here for it
one would think becky, the one who actually had the gun pointed at her most and the one in the most danger, would be the one who was traumatized and would get all of our sympathies (she might even be traumatized only that she doesnt show it off) but i guess everyone experiences things differently
Becky and Joyce do see things very differently. Becky has already been through the realization that her family and those she grew up with were not perfect, and in some cases, hated her for being herself. She has realized that, accepted it, and is willing to cut ties to avoid anymore pain from it.
Joyce on the other hand, is still learning to comprehend that her family aren’t perfect. She is slowly beginning to understand that the bible, her rock that she bases her life decisions on, can be wrong.
I recently made some similar (if on a lesser scale) realizations about my family and it can certainly be surprising when something goes to punch holes in the things you hold as gospel.
Let’s all step back and take a look at the setup and pacing of today’s comic.
It’s clearly meant to be a light-hearted gag. Leslie’s the set-up person (“straight man” would be inappropriate to use here). Joe makes an immature, filthy comment. Joyce fires back with a zinger. Joe counters by (perhaps correctly, perhaps not since he started it) turning the objection back on to the objector. Leslie is comically exasperated.
Now, some of us may find the gag funny (I do); some may not, and that’s fine in both cases. What we find amusing varies from person to person.
But again, today’s strip is clearly structured as a gag. Had Joe’s inappropriate lewdness led to Joyce, or any other woman, bursting into tears and running out, followed by Leslie saying, “Joe…you’re an asshole. Get out of my class and don’t come back,” that would be a different strip entirely. That sort of strip would merit multi-thousand word posts and counter-posts about sexual harassment, microagression and such.
But this? I’m pretty sure Willis meant it as a light-hearted breather strip. Now again, you may not personally find it funny. But maybe we can all ease up on the doctoral dissertations and save those for the actually dramatic installments?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I don’t buy it. Yeah it’s set up as gag strip. Sort of.
But it’s also a dick joke in gender studies class. By a writer who can actually be pretty subtle in making strips work on multiple levels.
So it’s a gag strip. It’s a chance to show more of how Joyce has been changed. And it’s a comment on gender relations.
As I’m laughing about the almost-absurdity of the cognitive dissonance between what you quite aptly pointed to as being a simple gag strip and the essays me and Cerberus (and others) ended up posting, it strikes me as terrifying (and funny, in a dark way) that this is precisely how an arms race functions and how a war can be sparked by the most unlikely of butterfly effects. It worked out in the end, but on a different scale – such as aforementioned war scenario – it could easily spiral out of control and only end when the last embers burn themselves out.
Humanity. We’re fun like that.
The cognitive dissonance only exists if it’s just a gag strip. Which it isn’t.
Which is another layer. It’s not just a gag strip. Just like it’s not just a dick joke.
hit the nail on the head here
There’s no flame war here. Just a bunch of people, with arrows and clubs, headed with oiled rags, carrying torches. Nothing to see here. No bongo thing to see here.
This isn’t the unruly mob you’re looking for. [/gesture]
But half of them are having tea and crumpets! 😛
On the one hand, sick burn, Joyce!
On the other hand, oh, Joyce….
Okay, I’m just going to be perfectly blunt here.
Joe can be an ass. I mean, he’s an ass on a nearly regular basis! But it’s almost always consistently agreed that he’s just that. An ass that makes jokes, even if they have an unintentional effect on those around him. Joe isn’t a rapist. Joe isn’t someone to take molesting seriously. The few times we’ve seen him come close to it, it’s usually with someone that we know he’s somewhat friendly with.
I’m not defending his jokes. They’re crass, boorish, rude, and objectifying. But his jokes are interesting in that they’re ACTUALLY jokes. Sure, it could be CONSIDERED harassment, yes. But is it really? No, not necessarily. Joe isn’t a bad person, and he’s been very vocal about consent. I’ve seen people mention that he’s lying about that, but I don’t get it.
See, Joe is difficult in that there seems to be a lot of black-white views on him. You have to remember that it isn’t like that, ever. He’s actually probably one of the most morally ‘grey’ characters in the strip. We know he’s generally friendly, and he’s not stupid. If the other version of him is to be considered, he’s actually quite smart. But yes, he makes unintelligent jokes because (and someone mentioned this earlier) he’s rather uncomfortable with the subject matter.
The way I see it, Joe may have come to Gender Studies with actual good intentions, but he piles jokes on top of it that make him seem like something he isn’t. I’m kind of going off-track here, so let me get right to the point. He isn’t a rapist. He isn’t a molester. He is, AT WORST MIND YOU, a bit of a catcalling prick. Don’t label someone as morally ‘grey’ as him so far on the ‘black’ side of the spectrum.
That is all.
Furthermore, most of Joe’s ‘joke’ strips are just that. Jokes, in-universe and out. Don’t take them too seriously.
I can imagine the reaction of commentors if one of the woman characters had walked into class, pointed at her crutch and said something like “Get a taste of this prime beaver.”
We’d call her Becky.
Agreed, this, 100%, etc.
I don’t think Joe is lying about consent. I think Joe has a poor definition of consent. “Yes” certainly means yes. “No” appears to mean “keep trying”. The only times we’ve actually seen him back down have been when the target yells in his face. He’s willing to keep pushing. He’s willing to use alcohol to make that yes easier to get.
He’s not a rapist or a molester. When you have to keep pointing that out about a character, it’s not a good sign.
Yeah, that booze thing is what utterly destroys any sympathy. He’s gonna end up doing something evil at some point unless stopped hard.
Joe’s made it pretty clear that he does not see his mental situation allowing him to take advantage of even a drunk Joyce: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/frequency/
that strip pretty clearly implies the opposite. he doesnt suggest he thinks it would be wrong to take advantage of drunk joyce, just that he doesnt want to sleep with her anymore
I still read that as “I’d have to be crazy to do it with you, even if you were drunk enough to agree”, which isn’t quite the same as “I wouldn’t take advantage of you if you were drunk.”
I don’t think Joe takes a “no” as a “keep trying”? Both Joyce and Sarah have told him to fuck off and he did; and he hasn’t tried to hook up with either again. He teases Joyce (and in his mind, he thinks it’s harmless and good fun) but he stopped looking at Joyce as a potential partner because she made it clear that she doesn’t want to be the kind of partner he’s looking for.
Honestly, rather than being a nasty pick-up-artist, I think Joe’s biggest flaw is that he doesn’t recognize his teasing and jokes are not funny to everybody and when to shut up about himself.
Yeah, he does take an in-your-face fuck off as no. That’s what I said.
Does he back off for anything less?
So Joe takes no as no and anything else as maybe. How is that a problem? He’s like a door to door salesman, very persistent but not doing anything wrong. You can always close the door.
Does “no” always mean no? Of course.
But does it mean “no” always and forever? I say that it doesn’t.
It may just mean “no” for now.
It means “no” until the nay-sayer explicitly retracts it. If you proposition someone and they say no, leave them alone. If they change their mind they’ll come and proposition you back.
ObDoA: I don’t know if the latter has even happened, but Billie thought it was with Danny.
So if I ask someone if she would like to go out for dinner and a movie and she says “no”, I’m not permitted to ask her again at some later date? Or if we do go to the movie and I try to hold her hand and she says “no”, I’m never allowed to try to hold her hand ever again?
If that’s the way of the world today, you can keep it.
I think harassing someone so you can stick your dick into them is different than trying for a date.
Which, you know, don’t repeatedly harass people for a date either.
Willis has stated that Joe is pretty big on consent, so I am assuming that yes, Joe will back down when told no.
This I think is my biggest problem with Joe. He’s got all the signs of being a pretty serious creep. Serious boundary issues and even some signs that his idea of consent might not be quite what it should be.
And we’ve got Word of God saying he’s big on consent, implying he really is a safe good guy, despite really coming across as someone not to trust at all.
Yeah, he’s a person I worry about my friends getting with and let out a sigh of relief when they say they had a good time. He’s got so many red flags dripping off him and so often in real life at least, those with red flags who talk a good game on consent tend to be really really dangerous and manipulative because of their “good reputation” (see “male feminists” who turned out to be serial rapists just using the reputation to appear “safe”)
I feel you on this. A supposed feminist man who was one of my very best friends drugged and attempted to rape a mutual best friend of ours. I trust in Willis when he says Joe would never do anything like that. I think a lot of me just really really really wants to believe Joe is big on consent. I feel like he’s just a super big asshole but when it’s time to talk serious, he can do it. (when it comes to sex)
This.
Nobody else has said just no to him. In fact, most of what we’ve seen turns out the women are fairly receptive to it.
Lot’s of people are projecting their own feelings on Joe and the ladies in te strip.
Joe reminds me of a boy I went to school with. We called him a hound. He would tirelessly chase girls until, in some cases, out of exhaustion, they slept with him. Then, he would drop the girl and go on to the next target, and he always had a next target. We’re both 60 now. I’m not FB friends with him, but I recently saw a post on FB where he was asking one of those now-women he slept with if he could get a “special” photo of them from their younger days. He’s 60 years old and he’s trying to assemble a nude scrapbook of the women he slept with. Hounds never change. I think they are incapable of changing and they should be ignored as they are nothing more than shallow, insecure people who are broken.
Actually, that sounds like a pretty serious personality disorder to me!
I’ve been composing a post in my head about the Joe debate here. See below for why I am replying to you.
I’ve been considering various responses to commenters, but I realized I don’t know the answer to the question “Is Joe really a successful seducer, or does he just talk like one?” (I’ve met a lot of guys who talk like they are sex machines, without an underlying reality that I can see.)
I am too lazy to go back and do a thorough archive survey, but how many women has Joe had sex with? Roz, of course, but who else?
I am asking because I’ll accept that there are guys that are good at seducing women. And I’ll accept that there are guys who are too incompetent at reading body language and other non-blatant social cues to realize what jerks they are being.
But I can’t buy that that there are many guys who are both.
But you seem to be saying this guy was like that. Or am I misunderstanding you?
If Joe is good at reading women, that makes him more of a jerk for bothering women he can tell aren’t interested.
If he isn’t good at reading women he is a different kind of jerk. If you know you suck at something that bothers people if you do it wrong, a decent adult learns to be very cautious and low-key in that area. Even to the point of giving up on it entirely, if necessary.
That’s part of my problem with him. Some of it may simply be that Willis doesn’t know how to write a successful seducer – at least without showing more of the process and focusing more on Joe than he wants to.
It’s pretty heavily implied that he is successful though. He could be faking it all, just putting up a front, but I don’t think so. There haven’t been any cracks in it yet. I think there have been scenes with Danny where he comments that Joe didn’t come home last night – that kind of thing.
Mostly we haven’t seen it because Joe isn’t a major character and Willis probably doesn’t want to introduce girls who are just Joe’s girl #1-10.
He’s implied to be successful, but he’s also been implied to use some “underhanded” to say the least techniques to be “successful” and I’d bet there’s more than a fair share of Joyce-like endings. The two women on screen to have gotten with him both seem to not have much use for his talky-BS “game” crap and mostly want to sleep with him because he’s handsome and has good stamina in the sack. I mean, Penny was very much shut up and strip and Roz in slipshine suggests that she’s not much one for his supposed game.
So, I’m a guess he is having success because he is handsome and out there, but not nearly as much as he would be having if he wasn’t pushing forward this Leisure Suit Larry creepy PUA vibe a lot of the time.
In any other class, Joe would probably be told to shut up immediately. Leslie is probably more likely to use it to jump-start a discussion about why what Joe is doing is wrong.
We saw in the earlier class (when Roz basically took over and ignored Leslie in favour of waving her own moral superiority around) that Leslie’s in-class technique makes it very easy for her to be overwhelmed and lead to lessons being derailed.
My history teacher was like that: She was very into open and student-led round-table discussions. The practical upshot of this is that we talked about what we wanted to talk about and never actually covered the course material. The freshmen in this class are about the same age as that history class so I’m not surprised to see that this ‘progressive’ study method is highly ineffective.
Joyce has learned how to snark! SQUEEEE!
Yup
Just so I have this clear:
Dorothy is an uncaring, overambitious shrew whose drive to make her place in the world are definitely because of her narcissism.
Amber is an unstable nutcase because she yelled at Danny that one time, and needs to be forcibly sectioned off for the good of everyone else.
Roz is apparently so vile a person we needed to invent a new swear word.
But Joe, oh dearest, sweetest of God’s creations Joe. Nothing says charm like trying to manipulate a sheltered church girl into sex, bashing his best friend for failing to live up to the standards of masculinity he arbitrarily set, and loudly fetishizing lesbians in front of his lesbian teacher. Who cares if he turns a classroom into an audience for his dick jokes? Boys will be boys! Stop taking sexual harassment so seriously you guys!
In other words, sexism as usual.
Although the Amber being sectioned thing after the screaming was more finally realizing how dangerously unhinged she is, considering she tears about dressed as a superhero threatening and trying to beat folks. She needs mental health care urgently, as she’s either going to seriously harm someone or write a check her body can’t cash.
I mean, yeah, Amber does have actual problems, but there was a ton of “I can’t believe Amber is so horrible an abuser” because she… yelled at Danny and then was immediately wracked with guilt. That her mental health issues immediately meant any negative action she took meant it must be horrible and abusive.
And like, I guess the problem with trying to properly contextualize Amazi-Girl is that, well, vigilante superheroes aren’t a thing most people are acquainted with. There’s a handful running around IRL, but they’re a fantasy concept to basically everyone reading this comic. The only things with any real consequence in the Amazi-Girl narrative were her fights with Blaine and Sal, and in the latter she didn’t even manage to land on a hit on her, and the car chase, where per Word of God, Amazi-Girl was supposed to be a positive during that sequence. Otherwise, she beats up total randoms with absolutely no consequence, and it’s frequently played for laughs.
I really hope that ends soon. She just ain’t funny no more, just like Joe. Whereas Joe’s a drip, she’s a literal menace.
Although if Joe doesn’t drop that booze thing soon, he’s also going to end up being dangerous.
Hes dangerous now. People with multiple partners who dont pick their partners with care, can easily end up with a STD and transmitting it across campus.
Whatever his other problems, he seems the type to wrap it properly. What I’m afraid of is him getting a girl drunk and fucking her without her real consent.
Getting drunk can definitely lead to forgetting to wrap it.
That’s where things have been going for Amber since 2014. Amazi-Girl’s gradually stopped being something wacky and fantastical, and Amber’s very subtly moved from “this is a thing I do” to “I have two separate identities.”
I’d actually bank on 2016 being the last year we see AG.
I’d only bank on that if it was simultaneously so for Amber. I don’t see anything but the law getting involved ending that shitshow.
Amazi-Girl kind of has to end, as the focus in the last two years has been about how it’s violent, dangerous, and unhealthy for her (and tellingly, she doesn’t get involved in wacky sign stealing or completely justified jock beatdowns much anymore), but Amber’s not going anywhere. If she went to jail, she’d never be able to appear again.
I want to say something like probation, but she’s committed and been involved in actual violent crimes. It seems like if they figured out who she is, they’d have to take drastic action.
Are you certain you are not conflating the comments under the common identity of “people who said things you disagree with”? Because I’m more inclined to believe that the people who got up in arms about all those other things are getting up in arms here about Joe too.
Frankly the only one on the list you gave that I seriously dislike is Roz. And that’s because she openly defied a reasonable order from Leslie who was trying to moderate a healthy sharing and debate session.
I don’t think it’s equally as likely that the folks who made those arguments are the ones praising Joe here, nor do I care enough to look. Either way, it’s still annoying that certain (read; female) characters get shit on for acting out, but hulking straight “boys will be boys” Joe gets away with everything.
Folks do the same shit to Mike.
+1
….Look, she beat a man who wasn’t a threat into the hospital. That’s pretty beyond the requisites to call something abuse. She has demonstrated she’s looking for an excuse to hurt the ‘criminals’ she finds with all-too-much frequency. The only reason we aren’t more freely calling her an abuser is that she doesn’t generally try to hurt or emotionally abuse her LOVED ones; either way, some of the most important aspects, the ‘you made me hurt you’ excuses, are there. She is 100% way too fucking violent, and while I’m not surprised it managed to show its face with Danny and worry or frighten him with good reason, it’s not like it’s that ~weird~ she’s being called an abuser, even if that isn’t quite right because she’s more just a violent criminal.
She beat her abusive shithead dad after he physically restrained her boyfriend. Was it horrifying? Absolutely, but it was also a total, violent, uncontrolled breakdown. I wouldn’t call Sal a verbal abuser if she threw shit at her mom after years of neglect. Joyce isn’t an abuser because she went bloodrage and tried to kick the shit out of Toedad.
I don’t think Amber is even remotely close to becoming an abuser, because whenever she acts remotely abusive to anyone she descends into a panic attack and beats herself up. Is she too violent? Totes, but that’s not the same as being a genderswapped Blaine.
As for the criminals she hunts, well, yeah, you’re absolutely right. The stated intent behind Amazi-Girl is that she finds people she can justify beating so she doesn’t act on it on people she cares about, and I guess that’s the sticking point; when she beats up Beef and his jock bros, or steals that stop sign from those two guys who pointedly wouldn’t fight her, it’s done completely without consequence on her character. It doesn’t matter to her; it’s like thinking Indiana Jones is a heartless, cold blooded murderer because he guns down Nazis; they don’t actually count. They’re just the random mooks you beat up in video games.
I’m not entirely sure if that’s enough of an answer for you, it makes sense to me but I’m into superhero comics so it’s something I’m used to seeing, but that’s how I see it.
I wouldn’t say Amber’s an abuser for that either – it’s not a sustained relationship. But it’s not ~weird~ considering she goes into violent fits of ‘bloodrage’.
And uh, nazis are a military threat. Random citizens are random citizens. “Is it acceptable for the police to just beat random citizens?” To which the answer is no. And the answer is ‘no’ even when they’ve committed crimes. We’re to understand some criminals are an actual threat to someone’s person. Okay. Others aren’t. And her sheer anger at being denied the beating of the engineering student, as well as the way she went out of her way to fight Sal and her friends, do not speak well of her ability to judge that.
I mean, yeah. Amber’s absolutely on a crash course, and the stuff with Blaine, Sal, and the car chase are abundantly clear about that.
I suppose the way I view stuff like the engineering students, Beef and his friends, and that one guy with the cinder block, is that they’re more supposed to cool action scenes we don’t think about. Like, they’re dumb jerks, so it’s okay for the protagonist to violently deal with them, and there doesn’t need to be consequences because they aren’t important characters.
And like, I know that’s totally messed up in a real world context, but it’s something I allow in fiction; like the Uncharted games, where Nathan Drake treats murdering his fellow man in cold blood the same way he does sassy quipping.
She ASSAULTED her father, she did not ABUSE her father. There is a difference. Abuse is a pattern. And frankly, his abuse of her IS a mitigating circumstance in that case, like, something that could be used in a court to argue for a reduced sentence. I’m not saying it wasn’t a violent, unnecessary act, but it makes me really comfortable to call it abuse, especially since a pattern of real-world abusers can be baiting their victims physically and emotionally until they strike back, and then using that to paint the other person as the abuser.
*congratulates the author on a nice bit of character development and backs slowly away from the hot mess the comment thread has become*
I think by this point I’ve left six short comments on the state of this overall comment thread. I’m currently thinking that it’s possible Willis may have seen this, and is currently rocking in a corner, holding one or both of his kids, with Maggie holding him, saying, “It’s just the internet, It’s just the internet’.
Well, since no one in class said it: OOOOOOOOOOOOHH!!!
I know this is all traumatic and serious and shit, but I can’t deny really enjoying snide-remark!Joyce in the last panel.
As for Joe, avoiding your own feels by clowning around or projecting a persona is a bad idea, but it’s your bad idea. Trivializing other people’s feels by clowning around and making it all about you is rude at best.
+1
Yeah, Joyce refuses to rise to his bait and just gives him a snarky burn and that’s really awesome to see and a sign that there might be some positives to come out of Joyce’s long dark tea-time of the soul.
And yeah, very much agree on that last paragraph. It’s one thing to avoid your own feelings or minimize bad stuff that happens to you with a silly joke (see Becky) and another to do that to other people, and especially to do that to other people by making it all about you and your awesome life.
It’s the difference between gallow humor and microaggression.
What’s fascinating and oddly absent from what I’ve seen of today’s discussion is how Roz and Joe interact in-comic. They don’t seem to be continually clashing, they have at least sporadic occasions of mutually-satisfying sexual encounters… (I don’t have slipshine, so I don’t know if Roz opined on Joe’s more general behaviours in her part of Tales of Sin-terest, but we haven’t seen her be really critical that I can recall.)
Roz has never gotten on Joe’s case, IIRC.
Stuff like this, or him going about “sweet lesbian facts”, you’d think that would motivate Roz to tell him to fuck off.
Yeah. I’d like to see that. It would make me much happier with Roz.
I wonder how much of that is that they’re both minor characters, only important in how they interact with the main cast. Their own interactions aren’t focused on.
(And Roz didn’t say anything really relevant in the Slipshine, IIRC)
Yeah, in slipshine it seems like Roz has no use for his whole shtick, just likes his stick and so is very much, shut up, bind your hands and let me ride. I would also like to see her call him out more, but I understand that there can often be a dynamic when you’re in a sexual/romantic relationship with someone that can make you more unlikely to call out bad behavior in public when you see it.
Oooh, BURN!
I would normally never say something like this in an instance of slut-shaming, but then, this is Joe, so I’ll say it. Dude totally deserved it.
It’s a new year, and we’re seeing a new side to Joyce. I am intrigued.
Slut-shaming = double standard, right? Criticizing women for things that men do without disapproval. Until this episode, I have enjoyed the Joe character. As Mr. Willis has said, big on consent. Today is hopefully just a punch line. Otherwise, me’n’Joe are going to have a falling out.
Dang Joyce! Learning how to clap back!
The likes of Joe usually end up in the STD clinic nursing a dripping dick and a frantic search through his contact list.
Now theres manliness for you.
I like new Joyce. Full of Joy, and sunshine.
joe got roasted.
I have read the comments to the end. I feel like I’ve been through a Gender Studies assignment.
(Somewhere Leslie is nodding in approval.)
Remember that “slut-shaming” is the answer to half of the questions. or so Walky claims.
I, too, have reached the end of the comments now. While I act nothing like Joe, I do identify as a cis-straight male. At times, it feels like being that make me a bad person to a good chunk of the population.
It’s a somewhat-justified social envy/want for equality. Because it is easier in most circumstances to be cis-straight and male. It’s harder to be a cis-straight woman and harder still to be any of the many other variations on the sexual spectrum. In /most/ common situations, that is.
That sed, some sadly transform this desire for justice into a hatered for those they see as having a easier time then them, meaning at times as a cis-straight male you’ll be judged as evil for no reason then what you are born as – a new kind of sexual-classism in reaction to an old kind of sexual-classism, both being equally vile.
Take solace that you’re not good or bad because of your sexual preferences, regardless of what those are. You’re good or bad based on /who/ you are, not /what/ you are.
Leslie lamenting to the Lord Almighty? I didn’t know she was religious.
No she is just a closet feudalist who researched and discovered that her ancestors were serfs on the fief of Joe’s ancestors.
Which is certainly something to be distressed about.
Who knew Rosenthal was a Norse name?
It’s a Germanic name, to be sure. It literally means ‘rose-field’.
I think she’s from a religious family, but has since discarded her religion after getting thrown out. It was a similar case in Shortpacked.
That is correct.
Yes, but it wouldn’t be necessary for that to be true just for her to say “oh lord”.
I was raised atheist, I don’t think I ever heard a word about religion until I got into school and the other kids were religious. And even then it was years and years before I knew much about it. I never considered becoming religious, and I think religion on the balance is harmful.
But I’ll still say “oh lord” or “god dammit” or “Jesus Christ”. It’s pretty inevitable you’ll pick it up if you live in the US most/all your life, unless you are in some tight knit non-christian group and don’t get too much mainstream media.
Sure, some atheists go out of their way to say something different, but I’ve never seen the point. It’s just idiom as far as I’m concerned.
Leslie was actually raised Christian, so maybe it’s the kind of thing she’s used to.
Or it’s as you said, just a common idiom. I’m also an atheist and I use “oh god” and variations thereof all the time.
As someone who likes Joe and feels no need to discuss it or defend it, I will simply say: sick burn, Joyce! Love it! I hope she finds some real joy in life soon though.
I do agree that he needs to grow outside of his privileged life, but beyond that I would simply say awesome burn Joyce! 😀
daaaaaaaaamn
I gotta say that’s easily the wittiest thing we’ve seen from Joyce since the “j’accuse-zi”
Also, and this is random, but is Joyce being drawn differently? She definitely has a different “feel” in her art, or maybe I’m just projecting. Is she slouching a bit? It looks great, but is bugging me that I can’t pin it down.
He literally just said ‘My penis.’
Is that microagression?
If I walked around in public saying ‘Penis’ would I be sexually harassing people?
…..wow Joyce. Just….wow.
The snark is strong in Joyce today.