Nope, just a regular monocle ground to my close-up prescription. So much easier than bifocals or reading glasses. I usually end up closing my non-dominant eye when I’m doing close work anyway so I only need the one lens.
*Swoons in general direction of fainting couch. Realizes in mid swoon that I for some unfathomable reason wears a monocle. Freaks out and tries to abort swoon. Falls on my ass instead. Cymbal crash is heard. Pie is thrown in my face. Monocle drops.
I was totally wearing ten monocles and they all popped off at once! They fell right into my nonalcoholic martini. Gracious goodness me! You tell ’em, Joyce!
I’ve put up with a lot of terrible things in this strip, like people taking the Lord’s name in vain, and women walking with men without the supervision of an adult chaperone, but Joyce’s potty-mouth is the straw that broke the camel’s back.
I will notify the One Million Moms and mobilize a boycott against your demonic comic, Mr. Willis. Prepare to have your work not read by 300 moms that never even read your comic before!
Embrace the F-bomb, Joyce! It’s the most versatile word in the English language! It can be used as nearly every word in a sentence: Fuck the fucking fuckers! 😀
Yep, it was pretty much at that point I quit hiding my swearing from people and embraced the power of the F-bomb. 😀
All we need to do is strap her to a chair and repeatedly show her the scene in Planes Trains and Automobiles where Steve Martin talks to the rental car clerk, and she’ll be right as rain.
Indeed, it can be used as just about any part of speech, as demonstrated in this famous example “Word! the wording worder wording worded up wording bad.”
If she wants to save foul language for when it should have meaning, this is probably the best time. Then again, swearing a blue streak in the middle of lecture is ill-advised…
She’s stated before she wants to save it for some moment when she “really means it.” One must wonder what it will take for her to finally cross that threshold. The four horsemen? Another democrat prez?
I think at that point Jesus is supposed to have whisked her off to Heaven already, so if she’s still there when the Horsemen show up, she’s got nothing to lose by swearing anymore.
Leslie’s personal history (almost identical to her other incarnation’s, up to a point) is extremely well handled here, both in the strip and by Leslie herself. I’ve had teachers who use their classes as excuses to share personal anecdotes with a captive audience, but that’s not what’s going on here. Les is using her past– which she is only “disclosing” now, after weeks of classes– to lend extra weight to the material, to bring it out of a statistical abstraction and into reality. (She has no way of knowing that Becky has already done that for Joyce and Dorothy, but even if she did, she’d have other students to worry about.)
Also agreed on all counts, but with one more thing to add: She is revealing a potential bias, which is something that more sources of information and knowledge need to do. This not only invites the students to question what she is saying (which is something most professors should do, even when they’re RIGHT, like she is)… it also models a degree of intellectual integrity that freshmen can benefit from.
I knew a professor that kept a running list of relatives of various degree who chose to live in geologically dangerous locations. Landslides, earthquakes, floods, and brought them out as the course covered various land forms.
Ffft. I live in New Zealand. Family is, lessee now, Auckland (volcanoes), Hamilton (dams, volcano), Taranaki (volcano), Christchurch (earthquakes, floods).
There’s two MSc degrees in earth science in the family. I only did two papers myself, but the resources and hazards course was fun.
I had a highschool English teacher like that. It made me very uncomfortable.
In my college, gender studies was ESPECIALLY prone to this. There wasn’t much encouragement for free thinking or respect for contradicting viewpoints. One teacher stubbornly insisted on referring to all students as women, despite the trans students that it really upset and sympathetic students asking her to stop. I am incredibly interested in studying gender, I do it in my own time and am probably as much of an expert as those with degrees, but the teachers in the department made the thought of getting a gender studies major utterly unpalatable to me.
I hear fudge, flip, frick, frack, frig, eff…that’s all I can think of. But yeah, never “hanky-panky.” Maybe fudge (and the others I mentioned) are too close to the actual word for her to be comfortable saying them.
i think after all we have seen in shortpacked and here we can safely add “Faz” to the list. i now i would feel pretty Insulted if someone would say “Faz you” to me.
Guys, guys! What if, what if Mr. Toe’s first name is “Babies”? That would make him, quite literally, “Babies MacIntyre”! (No wait, it’s “Ross” isn’t it? Well, how about his middle name then?)
Actually, I think Walky says “holy cheese” sometimes, and I’m pretty sure Willis confirmed that he’s referring to the character from his favorite cartoon.
Willis responding to an ask of mine was actually led me to get into the fandom (for lack of a better word) more. Having the creator so involved with the fanbase makes it so much more interesting.
I once reblogged a set of photos of the IU campus hehe had posted on Tumblr, because I lived and went to school there. I added some irreverent comment about a teacher I’d had for the benefit of my college friends- when Willis reblogged and RESPONDED to my comment, I might have been a little star-struck.
Walky’s actually already done it at least once. The Cheese in this universe is a character in Dexter & Monkey Master, so fans of the show will reference him from time to time.
Being cheesed (or cheezed, in this case) is an actual real world expression unrelated to The Cheese though. Willis may have chosen to use that version of ticked off as a nod to fans, but I doubt Joyce is thinking of the cartoon character.
I love that third panel. Look at the denial burning away. Joyce is turning her feelings of hurt and betrayal and compassion into determination. And looks like Dottie has figured out how invaluable Leslie is in the struggle to rebuild Becky’s future – perfect. Satisfying comic.
I’m going to go ahead and assume this entire chain of comments is sarcastic. (Because if not, there are some other seriously flawed assumptions going on here.)
Oh God, that sounds like something from the 50s. An evil lesbian seducing wholesome wives and leading them astray. (For extra misogeny/homophobia, the day can be saved by legendary playboy Bruce Wayne seducing them in turn and make them stop their evil ways).
Wow… I didn’t realise when I started writing how close that plot thread (which was an actual sub genre in the pulp era) comes to the idea of corrective rape. This turned much more horrifying than intended.
New plan: Let’s not have a batman villain named the lesbian.
Proposal: a villain (anti-heroine?) who was once a mild-mannered lesbian, but got coerced into an experimental corrective behavioral treatment that gave her super-powers, warped her mind, and filled her with uncontrolled rage. Now she lives for vengeance, and stalks the night as… The Les-Been.
@Deanatay, maybe she coerced the great Poison Ivy herself early on in her villain story (Part of her origin story, but after the civilian portions) and convinced Ivy to use her for an experiment which gave her vine-like arms, but at the expense of making her a bean pant! To make it more interesting, she could have been interested in Ivy and her work from the get-go, so she knew exactly what to say to her when they met. (Sort of like that one weirdo who actually listened to Ivy and headed her warnings, even though no one else did)
Not sure if they would allow a Batman villain with the name Lesbian in this day and age.. “I am, the Lady Licker”? Enemy of Batgirl/Female Robin in costume, close friend when not?
Well and she kind of already came out to us all. “You’re trying to set me up with your sister, aren’t you?” *Roz says something I can’t remember* “I didn’t say it wasn’t working.”
I might be missing something here, but there is no difference between any of the more than 40,000 versions of christianity in that they are all still religions.
This almost sounds like the ‘no true Scottsman’ fallacy.
Not the best analogy. Organized religion has problems because it’s organized. Organized crime is bad because it’s crime – removing the organization does not remove the evil in that case.
In one corner, Joyce, in the other the Church. The Church have generations of systematic oppression of LGBT people going for it. But Joyce is angry (like – REALLY angry) and fights for love.
As focused on being caring as Joyce is I like to think she would have been upset at the charities not accepting lgbt youths even before the Becky thing. But the degree of emotion is much higher now of course.
I think she would be angry at religions who flat-out reject all LGBT+ kids under all circumstances, but uneasily accept organizations that “merely” demand they don’t act on their true feelings or attend rehabilitation therapy – she did consider homosexuality a sin like lying, after all. You shouldn’t let someone die in the street for lying but asking them to stop while under your care is not unreasonable.
Mainly because up to about, oh, twelve hours ago in strip-time, the only gay person she knew was gay was in serious self-loathing and so her previous worldview that gay people could be “cured” wasn’t challenged.
I’m pretty sure the next time she sees Ethan, there’s going to be some serious talking going on.
The thing is, at that point you don’t see the harm. What’s the harm in trying to cure the soul while taking people in? If they aren’t willing to turn to God, then they aren’t really willing to change their lives.
Not to mention, people in the church are just the nicest people you will ever meet, they are so accepting, until you talk about homosexuality. Then the venom just comes out. Fortunately, outside of a few hate the sin not the sinners(which goes gangbusters with other Christians btw) it generally doesn’t come up in 18 years leading up to college.
People are just so helpful and nice until you realize who they aren’t helpful and nice to.
Just had to add.. I know a good polish girl, and does accept that as long as you are nice to people, and are in love with *someone* it does not matter what gender they are…
I have calmed ‘frightened’ guys I know, by saying “if it was a girl, would you be frightened?? no? I am sure girls have the same worries about men.. :/ “
It’s funny. I’ve heard about plenty of Religious people who are not very nice, 1 even replied to Daniel the Humans “Yeah, I barrack for the Big Guy (God)” with “Well unless you follow this version of the Bible, you’re going to Hell”, as well as another who just a just plain nasty old bat. And yet there’s a group of bikers who regularly do charity work & other nice stuff, plus there’s annual biker gift-delivering rides at Christmas here in WA. Funny how that all works out…
It was kinda clear that Joyce was already on the verge last strip from the look on her face, she is certainly down the bloody rabbit hole now… El-Ahrairah help her ;D (yeah, sorry needed a wee touch of levity here)
I agree. I suppose my being ostensibly Christian helps with that, and I’d be lying if I said that where I’d like to see her end up doesn’t basically match where I am now. But I also think it’d be an unrealistic change for Joyce to become atheist in the small amount of her life that this comic will be able to cover.
I don’t know, people can change a lot in A few weeks. The way I see it, we’re all just one traumatic summer camp away from completely reconstructing our identity.
I completely agree. God is far too central to Joyce for her to turn her back on it. Given her strong belief in a loving God who supports her compassionate identity I could only see her breaking her faith if she started researching other religions and sects to a large degree.
It would definitely be in-character for her, and while Joyce is autobiographical to a point she’s not entirely so. (To the best of my knowledge, Willis does not have a trans sister, or indeed sibling of any kind.)
I could see her having a brief (relatively) crisis of faith at some point, because it’s college and her world view’s only going to keep getting shaken up, but she’s managed to reconcile things pretty well so far.
A valuable distinction, here. Faith can be a precious, valuable thing to a person; something that keeps them alive in the harshest of circumstances, that gives them the strength to persevere…
…and as well-intentioned a mortal, fallible organization can be in wanting to structure similar people’s faith, things invariably go awry. It’s why I’m a theist (specifically an agnostic theist)…but I’m not a Christian…
She holds on to her faith while separating it from the entirely human institution that does that actual evil. That will be important later, I’m sure..
Hey, Daniel here, Screwball’s Human friend…
While the Bible is supposed to be God’s word passed on to man, it has unfortunately been…tainted…over time. Translations don’t always work out right ( As Joyce looked up earlier), plus there have been various “Holy Men” throughout history who have deemed many holy relics sacrilegious & have destroyed or altered them (just as bad).
Me, I still barrack for the Big Guy, but the mopey, saddening churches I used to go to growing up have been lacking my attendance for a while…
…Looking back, I was actually rather Joyce-like for a while there too. Interesting how things turn out…
Actually, wow… I really love this… Joyce may be having her problems fully accepting Becky’s recent revelation, but -damn- if she wont Near Curse out anyone who gives her actual shit over it!
Her pure maelstrom of empathy for all around her is a force that could shatter mountains. I love her for it.
Leslie’s answer wasn’t very helpful. She answered it all generally but you’d think maybe some people in the class would ask for specific reasons to help people not just to assuage their conscious. Plus personal sharing isn’t helping in this situation either. There are homeless shelters places, give some damn references.
I’m sure she’d have provided specifics if someone asked for specifics or she’d have handed out a pamphlet with adresses after class if someone came to her in private.
I was wondering about that, too. There are non-religious groups and charities that help LGBTQ teens who have either runaway from or been kicked out of their homes, right?
The conversation in class has been about a broad, general context, and Leslie’s answers have been in the same mode. Given that she’s clever and that all of five seconds have passed since the last comic, I wouldn’t be surprised if she closes the class with a “If anyone’s interested in knowing more, or knows someone who needs support, here are some contact details.”
She’ll might think someone in class needs it, but she’ll be more right than she knows.
Personal sharing seems good for the context, too, because it sets up an anchor to the rest of the conversation. It ALSO means she’s framing this not just around Joyce and Dorothy, but potentially heading off anyone in the class who’s thinking quietly to themselves that those numbers can’t be right and are exaggerated for political purpose.
I’ve done university level teaching. There are Tricks.
IU has pretty excellent LGBT support services. The campus has been a center for research in sexual psychology since the days of Kinsey, which partly contributes to a thriving gay culture in the community. I am sure Les has plenty of resources to recommend.
That is a bit off the point, though. IU may be a decent place for LGBT students, but Bloomington is not a great place for homeless people in general. There are low barrier places that will help anyone who asks for help (they need not even be actually homeless), but the local government has decided that the way to deal with homeless people is to harass them into leaving. They made it illegal to sleep in public (seriously), have had cops sit outside of one of the larger soup kitchens and hand out tickets for the littlest things like jaywalking and having bicycle tires improperly inflated, and declared a tent shelter for homeless people declared a public nuisance and threatened the property owner who set it up with a $2,500/day fine until it was taken down (which put about 40 people back into the streets). Throw in that the specific concern is for a young lesbian and it becomes even worse.
There’s a limit to how informative you can get in five or six panels a day without the story coming to a grinding halt while Leslie lectures. There isn’t as much room in those speech bubbles as you might think, especially if you want to have room for the actual characters too.
I really want Joyce to approach Leslie after this. Obviously it’s an issue that’s gotten to her for more reasons than one, but Leslie is just the kind of person who would be approachable, able to give direction without prying, and wouldn’t make Joyce worry she’s giving too much away like she did with Dorothy. (Then I really want Leslie to go sort Ethan out.)
Not really? It just means backing off something you said, usually without admitting that you were wrong, but saying you phrased it badly or were unfortunately misunderstood. You hear it a lot discussing politics and politicians.
I find it adorable and hilarious that when Joyce is angry, these substitute words just start flying out from everywhere. I have a friend who gets the same way when she’s really pissed off. Granted she swears a lot of the time, but when she’s legitimately pissed, she’s all substitute words and it comes off as if it’s not so bad.
My wife swears when she’s REALLY angry, but more often uses substitute (sometimes invented) words. And then she’ll mix and match. Ends up with such gems as referring to my brother as a “fuckface fuckwad stinky-pants”. I’m not over that one yet.
Catch that emotion, Joyce. Take it in your hands and forge it into a weapon. Wield it against those who would unjustly make others’ lives difficult or stand by as they suffer. Hanky-panky them, indeed!
Okay….there…..it…..is. “It” has brewing for some time and it just perked right on over. Good Joyce- you just woke up. I do notice she left herself a back door -‘may walk that back, but right now she is Cheesed”.
I get the idea that from Joyce’s face she didn’t know/realize that her Church (and others) treat LBGT that way. But, then I don’t see her family or social group discussing it in any meaningful way. People know people are hungry in this country, but until it happens to some one personal…it doesn’t register.
I wonder if Joe just had an ‘awaking’ looking at Joyce as if never seen her likes before?
Leslie ……Bean Think about it, sound it out.
But seriously, if you didn’t follow previous – verses you wouldn’t know. Leslie is definitely a Lesbian, she and Robin are married in Shortpacked.
And I don’t think until staring it right in her face she really realized that no, the thought of telling someone they needed “fixing” when you love them that much, after you’ve seen what it does to their psyche, isn’t at all okay.
I’m pretty much in Joyce’s place here. I’ve been religious all my life and that’s not likely to change, but by every curse in the book do I ever get mad at the church sometimes. It gets hard to argue that faith in a higher power can be a force for good when so many people who share my views are such complete… melon wedges.
Nonagon, your invective is as delightful as it is delectable.
I’d say that simply having faith in a God does very very little to dictate what morals you follow. If you believe in Odin you might think war, drinking, rape, slavery, and human trafficking were all good things. If you believe in the christian God you can believe in almost any philosophy held by the western world up to the modern era. The structure around that faith, what you believe that god wants, thinks, stands for, fights for; that is what determines your morals or lack thereof.
I more follow Thor than Odin, but most of us view rape, slavery, and human trafficking as being as foul as the rest of you.
Drinking is fine; drinking to excess is just stupid; you may need your wits at a moment’s notice so sending them flying irretrievably from you is stupid and irresponsible, especially if there’s a not-unreasonable chance you may need to, for example, deal with a sick kid in the middle of the night or something.
War is unfortunately sometimes necessary. I suspect that NATO will be in reasonably open warfare with Russia fairly soon and the same with Coalition forces (what a dumb moniker; “Allies” was much better and sounded less like they were being run by MSNBC or something) and ISIL. War should not be undertaken lightly and should only be used when other options have been exhausted. Having said that, though, there are times when standing by and doing nothing is worse than war. Doing nothing to fight Germany in WWII would have been the wrong choice; standing by and not supporting the Ukraine or fighting against ISIL would also, IMO, be morally wrong.
OTOH we don’t really have the concept of sin, although we do have concepts of good and bad. Is something harmful, either to oneself, one’s family, the planet? Then it is bad. Killing kids is inherently bad. Following another pantheon; meh, who cares? They aren’t going to Niflhelm or anything; why would they? Their own gods (or entropy) will see to them.
TL;DR: I take your point but I wanted to clarify. Oh! Here’s one that differs from the way Christians view such things; we don’t do the “turn the other cheek thing” and aren’t forbidden from lying. Actually; we aren’t forbidden anything; we’re just counselled what is a good thing to do and what is dumb and a bad idea.
A man should be loyal through life to friends,
And return gift for gift,
Laugh when they laugh,
but with lies repay
A false foe who lies.
If you find a friend you fully trust
And wish for his good-will,
exchange thoughts,
exchange gifts,
Go often to his house.
If you deal with another you don’t trust
But wish for his good-will,
Be fair in speech but false in thought
And give him lie for lie.
I am certain that modern Norse believers are mostly good people, I just wanted to use Norse because it’s an easy target what with all the bad PR the Vikings got him.
I love Joyce in this strip. Yeah, her language is silly, but she’s trying so hard and it’s so clear how much she cares for Becky. She’s a real darling.
I think it will take longer (in real time, mind you) for Willis to put an actual swear word in Joyce’s mouth than it did for him to finally embrace his own inner Pornlord.
Here’s some commentary based on personal experience, conversations with uninformed friends, and conjecture:
It’s strange that she has all these swear-substitutes. The language of people who don’t use swear words doesn’t usually provide a place for swear-words at all, because those people are used to modifying the wording for intensity rather than using swearing as an intensity modifier. Joyce’s language here is what you get from a child who’s grown up around parents who are used to swearing (when it suits the occasion), but don’t want to swear around children. Then the child learns that sort of swearing, and when they get older, at some point it will likely be in their best interest to learn to swear ‘properly’ so that they’ll be less of an outcast among people (like Joe, for example) who see swearing as mature and normal.
That leads to 3 conclusions:
1. Joyce’s parents, or one of them, do not behave perfectly, because she’s picked up this speech pattern from them. (By ‘perfectly’ I mean according to their own ideals.)
2. Joyce may well actually swear in the future.
3. Joe’s attitude to Joyce’s swearing really annoys me.
I always feel like I’m going to be misunderstood when I read back over my posts. I didn’t mean to suggest that my personal experience and conjecture were valid, by calling my friends ‘uninformed’ on the subject – it was meant to be clear that none of the three sources of my commentary qualify the view I’m expressing as a necessarily accurate one.
I’ve always found the distinction between church and god interesting in narratives. My favorite example is in Final Fantasy Tactics: The War of the Lions. Wherein a character branded a heretic by the church (organization) is found praying in a church (building).
Hehe, that can be confusing. The church operates out of churches.
There’s The Church, capital C, the organisation. Then churches, lower C, buildings. Then there’s Christianity which is whatever people make of it, and God (not exclusive to Christianity or to any Church) beyond that still.
Established Churches are all very different so it’s not unusual at all for someone to disagree with them whilst still identifying very strongly as a Christian. I don’t think Joyce will lose her faith at all, and I hope she doesn’t as that would be a truly horrible thing for someone with her background and family, but falling out with the Church looks like a good step.
It’s not that confusing at all. By entering and praying in a church (the building) the heretic has committed yet another offense against the Church (the religion), as he has now profaned and desecrated the structure by his presence. Yet another reason to fetch the thumbscrews, the chain, the stake, and the kindling.
Oh Joyce. Oh Joyce. I really do appreciate that her philosophy on life really is “love everyone, take care of everyone” and how pissed she gets that other people don’t follow that.
Really hoping that Joyce/Dorothy/Becky (one of them or all) go to Leslie for specific help. (Admittedly part of that might just because I want to see more Leslie. But I think they really need an adult.)
Joyce is AWESOME! She has already stood up to God for Becky’s sake. Now she’s ready to take on the church. And Dorothy is in full support mode. It’s obvious for Leslie (and Roz) that this is personal for Joyce, so I’m pretty sure they will offer help if Joyce does not ask herself. It actually seems like things are looking up for Becky…
I’m real proud of Joyce. It takes a lot of guts to break away from a lifelong foundation, but when faced with either supporting her best friend or the religious institution that she was raised in from birth, she chooses her best friend night-immediately. That’s difficult! Good for her.
also.. anyone else feel like maybe Joyce will introduce becky.. and then some awkward hanky panky will occur in the background since becky isn’t a student and thereby valid for dating?
Leslie appears to be more of a responsible adult than that, at least in this continuity, but then she did try to get Robin’s attention already so who knows.
I’d be careful drawing a parallel there. Hitting on a woman who came to talk to your class is one thing, taking advantage of a young adult in crisis who comes to you for help is something else entirely.
I don’t think Leslie would do that – she’s gone through something very similar to what Becky is dealing with, is one of the most mature people in this comic (for whatever that’s worth), and thus should recognize how bad an idea that would be.
I love Joyce’s swearing so much.
On another note, yay Joyce! The wool is being lifted from your eyes. I know that she’s not Catholic, but I’m bringing up the Catholic church for an anecdote. All her childhood life, my mom was very Catholic. But when she expressed the intrest to be a Priest, she was laughed at, which hurt her deeply. Slowly she began to see the many faults of the Church, including the fact that a blind eye is turned towards pedophilia, they are very sexist, (women cannot be leaders, EVER) and they seemed fake to my mom. She hated that the leaders were covered in jewels and lived lavish lives. She was horrified that they weren’t taking their vow of poverty as they were supposed to. While she is still connected to God, she has turned away from the Church, saying that she wants nothing to do with Christians who do not act like Christians. I think that this might be the path that Joyce will take.
My mother worked as a graphic designer for years next to a woman who cursed like a sailor. She never cursed, as I said.
One day she was fighting through a stomach bug as well as personal troubles and a guy was being difficult. She told him to ‘fuck off’ before she could stop herself, and the entire business stopped. Literally stopped and stared.
Mind you, nobody paid attention when the woman who cursed like a sailor did her thing. But my mom curses and it’s the end of the world.
So if Joyce ever breaks her no-cursing rule, we’ll know it’s an extremely serious/stressful situation.
When I play online games that include a swear filter, I usually leave it enabled just to see how many ways I can make impactful statements without resorting to the stock swear words. For example, capitalized “GODDAMN” is often stronger than a non-capitalized “fucking,” yet in most contexts “goddamn” is the less profane term. “What the fucking hell?” versus “What the GODDAMN hell?”
Apparently I was good enough at it that my old guild never heard me actually swear even over voice chat until after I’d been with them for over a year. Their startled reactions surprised me, as I never thought of myself as particularly swear-averse! (Don’t worry, I was merely expressing mild frustration at missing an optional event by minutes. I said “fuuuuuuuuck.”) I decided to swear more often after that, just so people’s expectations of me would better match my own expectations of myself.
It seems some of your mother’s habits have rubbed off on you.
…which is good; I actually hold people like Joyce in high esteem – to have such presence of mind and self control; I (irl, verbally) swear like a longshoreman that’s just dropped a metal crate on his foot after learning that his wife’s leaving him for another woman…after giving him the clap. I’m like your mother’s co-worker – the words don’t have very much impact for me.
Still i have to admit that not shielding LGBT people would be more effective than shielding them and telling them that as long as they want your help they have to at least now act as such on premises. Those who are LGBT will still most likely express those tendencies on the organization’s grounds and as such the organization becomes a target for ridicule.
I think the implication is that if the church offers to shelter LGBT people on the condition that they repent, they run the risk of helping people who lie about repenting? And, perhaps, further risk embarrassing, or blatant mockery, if non-heteronormitive activities are carried out under their noses? Maybe? My apologies to the original poster if that’s incorrect, I don’t mean to put words into anyone’s mouth!
Though, it seems rather less likely that a LGBT teen would sneakily deceive/ridicule/take advantage of a kindly Church, and rather more likely that a frightened, desperate LGBT teen may feel pressured to live a personally devastating lie in order to obtain basic necessities for survival. It’s hard to feel compassion for any charity on those grounds, when any “embarrassment” they risk is entirely predicated on anti-gay sentiment.
i was trying to avoid the ”on the condition that they repent’ even though in reality the church cant and go with that on the condition that the LGBT people not act LGBT while on church controlled grounds and i assume people know how most humans deal with authority telling them what to do
I thought I was following (‘yes, better to not get shelter at all than to be sheltered by a church that would try to use conversion therapy’), but then I hit the second paragraph and it all fell apart.
what i get from that second paragraph is that if you gonna do that anyway might as well never have come out to your family. its exactly the same thing but with strangers
I get the sense that today is just gonna be a really weird day for Joe. First Danny gets weird on him and now lesbians are people too? What’s next, he meets some attractive chick named Rachel who also loves engineering?
In a way he is experiencing the same thing as Joyce, and Billie, and Danny and… OK, pretty much half the cast. He came to college with A PLAN. Now it starts to crumble. He has ignored it up to now but he starts to realize that he has to change his attitude.
In his case it’s just a mild case. He can still sex up plenty of women, but he starts to realize that the solution to Danny’s problems might be more complex than “get laid and stop whining”. Also, it might not be as cool to fetishise lesbians as he had hoped.
Uh oh. While it’s good to see Joyce denounce this injustice, she may wind up making things worse in her anger. My main worry is Joyce inadvertantly betraying Becky by loudly defending her. Unfortunately, secrecy is key at this stage, given the potential consequences.
Becky’s sexuality doesn’t need to be hidden. The fact that she’s on the run because of her father and, to an extent, the church most certainly needs to be kept secret, however.
True, Becky has been quite vocal about her sexual orientation.
She may not care about Joyce “outing” her… but she may be upset about Joyce doing things behind her back (even if its ultimately for the best). Remember the last few times we saw Becky she seemed to be a bit miffed at Joyce, and wanted to kind of find her own way. She’s been through a lot and is probably a bit disoriented as a result. Joyce telling Becky “I found some help…” might cause a backlash.
If you made a T-shirt with angry-face Joyce from the last panel, and a word balloon that just said “HANKY-PANKY YOU, CHURCH!” I’d totally buy it. I bet a lot of other folks would too. 😀
I think that’s a fair distinction. It seems to be a great number of things that churches do that don’t really fit their own writings about the word of God, which unfortunately I have proven to be politically altered so many times it’s that it’s not even funny. I highly suspect that if there is a judgement, some of those whom use religion to justify their bigotry will quickly and firmly be disabused of any notion that it was ever appropriate.
Good girl, Joyce. -Good girl-. I remember when that realization first hit me- I think I was about nine, I’d just realized what it meant to churches that my parents have an open relationship and my mom was mostly gay. And then started thinking about what that meant. And then had a good long cry about it.
Been waiting for this hammer to fall. I’ve read the same source material. For people who call themselves “Christian”, there sure doesn’t seem to be much Christ-like about some people who claim that name.
That crisis has been ongoing, yes, but this (if we were to liken it to a viral infection) is the point where the patient would start coughing or sneezing, showing obvious outward symptoms.
And “a while back” is a rather vague term when dealing with the time dilation present in DoA…
Oh I see.. one of the genuine Christians. An endangered species, but not extinct.
I also revise upwards my opinion of Joyce’s parents. Not absolutely everything they taught her was awful, there’s an unquenchable core of kindness there. Maybe they’re carriers – showing no symptoms themselves, but transmitting it to their offspring.
If anything you should lower your opinion of her parents, their attempt to brainwash their children to their beliefs to maintain control not only failed but backfired.
I doubt they intended anything that sinister. They were raised the exact same way as they’re raising Joyce right now, and they pretty clearly love her and the rest of their kids.
I mean, yes, they have some really shitty elements to their personalities, and I don’t think they’re ever going to change from them, but just like Leo from Shortpacked, they aren’t bad people. They’re just holding on to some terrible viewpoints.
Joyce is pretty much me in this. I am a Christian (Presbyterian) but I’ve drifted away from even my organized religion despite them being somewhat better than most on gay issues. Bluntly, my relationship with God couldn’t stand dealing with all the darker elements institutions tended to bring. Ironically, I’d briefly considered converting to Catholicism before the whole scandal broke with them.
The Westboro Church is universally used by Christians as an example of how NOT to behave. They’re universally hated by the religious and non-religious alike.
With their own money. If it goes against their religious convictions, that’s their right. Separation of church and state goes both ways, you know. That doesn’t mean that I think that they SHOULD do what they do, just that they have the right to. I think they would actually be serving their cause better by giving charity without strings attached.
If someone spends their money in a bigoted way, even if that’s their religious conviction, that doesn’t mean I can’t still call them fucking bigots and tell them they’re being fucking bigots for doing it and think maybe they should stop being fucking bigots.
And “their own money” is kind of the issue. They’re a religious organization, so it means they get to keep their money tax-free. That’s money that could have gone back to the part of society that is slightly more likely to spread that dough around to the needy in a more indiscriminate fashion, but no. “Their money.” Bah. And in a world where government programs are demonized and shut down in favor of dumping the burden of caring for people on solely faith-based organizations which purposefully leave people fall through the cracks because of bigotry, that just means the whole thing’s a broken-ass system, and maybe that should change.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen Joyce curse so much in a single page. And yes, make no mistake, she is cursing. She might not be saying the word ‘fuck’, but she’s thinking of it every time she makes a deliberate effort to use the words fudge or hanky-panky instead. In other words, Joyce just told organized christianity to go fuck itself (but not Christ himself, that’s an important distinction).
I can understand that you can’t really organize 600+ churches as one bread one body but there certainly is the concept of the Church as an institution of faith that you could curse at.
Also, the Roman Catholic Church headed by the Pope.
There is definitely a concept of the abstracted unified Church in the Bible, most notably in Revelation, where the Church is described as the Bride of Christ. Despite how Christianity is infinitely factured, that concept still exists. It’s specifically why it’s referred to as THE Church, rather than just church.
Point taken, Willis. It’s just ironic to me because I grew up in an area where the various denominations were bitterly opposed, often to the point where many were accused of not being Christian despite this being ridiculous.
do twenty somethings in 2015, even from homeschoolery backgrounds, seriously not know this basic stuff about Christian charities? They are not aware of pray-the-gay-away phenomena?
I graduated two years ago from a small conservative instiution and the Joyce-esque people were all *aware* of this stuff, they either just didn’t like talking about it, or tried to justify it.
Like I get that Joyce is autobiographical, I wonder just if that autobiography still applies in 2015. Was my experience just unique?
I don’t think word has spread yet that the nominal leader of the “rehabilitation” movement has disavowed the process as hurtful and/or damaging. I work at a Southern Baptist ministry and still run into people who think that folks should just join a program, go to a camp, or pray it away. They also support refusing service to someone based on their orientation, etc. There is a serious cognitive dissonance in the church when it comes to homosexuality. Mostly out of fear, this particular issue has been given a significance/severity far beyond, say, adultery or gluttony. No logic in the world can sway folks about it. Like Joyce, it takes personal experience to let go of that particular prejudice. I wish every Christian I know would get confronted with this; it’s probably the most frustrating issue I see on a near-daily basis.
Joyce has actually attempted the pray the gay away with Ethan. I just don’t think she realized how harmful it was. She thought she was doing a good thing. Becky was the one who showed her that she was wrong.
In fairness to Joyce, it’s nowhere near an equal parallel. Ethan flat out asked her for exactly what she’s been trying to give him. She is not responsible for his bad choices, and it is neither her right nor responsibility to make his decisions for him, however long-term poor they may be. (I would argue that in the pure short-term, their relationship has been a good one for both of them. Joyce gets a sense of security while she heals from her trauma, Ethan gets to relax a bit and enjoy life since he’s not just ‘that gay guy’.)
Note that Becky, who does not want what Ethan currently wants, has received nothing but real support and friendship from Joyce.
I have never seen a better argument for the fact that swear words, when used as expletives, no longer have the meaning they do when they’re not used as swear words. (And thus can’t be replaced with synonyms.)
Damn you church for being the only ones to care enough to offer shelter in the first place! Seriously, am I the only to see this gaping hole in this logic? Should the church out conditions on who they offer charity to? Maybe, maybe not, but that’s their prerogative. If you’re offering free shelter, free food, free provisions, you have the right to set whatever conditions you want. If non-faith based charities want to rise up and take care of the LGBT community, then good on them, but they ain’t doing that, are they?
Having the right to do something and being morally in the right are two different things. Sure, charities can say they only serve redheads, if they want to. But it’s still cruel to turn away people in need because of sexual orientation, especially in conservative communities where religious charities may be the only place to turn. It isn’t right, by anyone’s religion, to deny a child shelter because they’re gay (and the majority of unaccompanied homeless youth *are* LGBT) but that’s what happens. The Salvation Army only changed it’s discrimination policy last year after several cases where gay or trans people were either denied help or kicked out of shelters (in one case, this led to the death of a trans woman who was refused shelter in winter and died of exposure).
There are many non-religious organizations trying to help the LGBT community and especially homeless LGBT youth, but as you can imagine it’s extremely difficult for these organizations to get funding, and nearly impossible for them to set up in the conservative communities where they’re most needed. Money doesn’t magically fall from the sky, and most people just don’t donate to LGBT organizations because it’s seen as a niche cause. There are lots of people working extremely hard to fix this problem, but that doesn’t help the LGBT people who need assistance now and can’t get to the nearest liberal metropolis to receive it. When religious charities deny the needy assistance, it’s just wrong.
The churches are not independent actors. They are getting a LOT of privileges because they are providing services to the society. It is not unreasonable to have opinions about how these services are performed.
Also, a lot of people argue against other agents in the “helping people” business, (for example the government), because the churches already are doing that job (never mind the people who the churches don’t want to help).
A church’s privileges comes from being a religious institution. Anything it does to serve the community is because of their own belief that it is their duty to do so.
It’s easy to complain about how other people spend their money, but how many would put their money where their mouth is? When a church near me built a giant cross near the freeway, they got complaints from all over saying it was a waste of money. But that church does more to serve their community and the world abroad than anyone else. We build wells in places where clean water is unavailable, build shelters for orphans in Africa, and just this week sent students out to nearby schools to provide free labor.
When people complain about the way churches spend their money, it makes me angry. Hypocrites, if you don’t like it go and do something yourselves.
So it’s OK for them to discriminate against LGBT people if the church board says so? Would that work for a restaurant as well? If not, what’s the difference?
Why does it being a religious belief give it more validity than if it was a personal belief? If you’re a jerk for reasons someone else came up with, rather than ones you did, would that make you less of a jerk? No, right?
Here’s the deal. If you want to discriminate against people, the government should not be giving you special treatment. Period.
If religious organizations were willing to give up their tax-exempt status and similar preferential treatments, I wouldn’t give a damn what they did. Well, I would, but in the same way I bongo about Microsoft making shitty products but know that it’s their choice to make them, and I choose not to use them or support them in any way.
Similarly when organizations like the Mormon church explicitly campaign against legislation, as in the Prop 8 debacle in California, I feel there needs to be a very strong backlash response to de-501(c)(3) them.
Okay, sure, they’re allowed to do that. I’m just wondering why you think that’s a perfectly valid and moral thing to do for a religion that preaches unending love and support.
if there was one thing jesus preached it’s that if you can technically get away with being a super asshole because of the letter of the law, then fuckin’ godspeed
So if they refused to help people in need based on their skin colour, when if they had the “right” skin colour they would be helped, would that be entirely acceptable and within their rights to limit their help only to the people who needed it and who were, say, pale enough? Or would that be morally or ethically repugnant?
Well, yes, practically, it is their prerogative. But consider that the reason for giving shelter to someone else is the whole “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” idea. And giving shelter to some and deny it to others negates that idea imo.
Exactly. As a Christian who wants to do good in the world, this is precisely what I stand for. There is this whole do not be unequally yolked idea, but that has been way too widely applied and some even apply it to completely incongruous things. I have seen people basically say that about coal power, particularly to me. Whenever i bring up power generation at church, someone has to trow in that oil is being generated all the time. To which many politely smile and nod in a condecendin manner and to which i correct. But then there’s the thing, if i can correct them on how oil is formed, they argue that they can correct others on moral issues. the issue then becomes the idea that there is:
1 a way to correct someones sexual attraction (there is not)
2 a way to correct a deeply held belief by saying it is wrong (again not)
so instead i just go on dealing with stupid.
… Wow, my adhd sometimes huh?
Difference: There is no Biblical justification for treating people differently because of skin color. It would be a political agenda, not religious conviction, that would motivate excluding people who are not white. Homosexuality, on the other hand, is a hotly debated issue. Churches differ in how they interpret the Bible in its stance on homosexuality, or even in if they believe in the Bible at all.
You know, there are non-faith charities that are trying to do exactly that. However in many cases it’s difficult for them to find support, because people assume the faith-based charities have things covered. Together with the religious privileges already mentioned, that tends to crowd out the others..
It’s important to be like Stannis Baratheon, IMHO. You should give church-based charities credit for offering charity and goodwill far in excess of the average citizen. You should ALSO call them to task for their bad qualities. One doesn’t erase the other. Both have to be dealt with individually.
That’s their fault for assuming, then. You can be one of four things:
1. Someone who is unaware of a need.
2. Someone who is aware of the need and complains that other people aren’t doing anything about it.
3. Someone who sees something that isn’t being done and takes action.
4. And finally, there’s the penniless college student who can’t be bothered to think about what other people need. There are papers to be written! Oh, $#!+, is that due tomorrow!?
Joyce making strides reminds me why i will always love this character. I relate the most with her, Ethan and now Becky. You create such amazing characters Willis
Leslie is really a nice, smart woman, but seems like a weird teacher. Her students interrupt her class and she says nothing. Also, a bit too much personal information than is really appropriate or necessary. Probably don’t want your students thinking about you having sex.
If a professor told you they were married, would you immediately imadine them and their spouse going at it?
And lots of college-level classes encourage class participation. (Hell, some professors complain aboit how hard it is to drag comment out of their students.) Leslie’s class isn’t a lecture hall.
As a twenty-something teaching in a university right now, I can tell you many of my more experienced colleagues (old and young!) teach the way Leslie teaches. There’s a big push for more student-centered discourse in the university, and there’s also major resistance against the teacher-as-giver-of-knowledge model (the idea being that knowledge is mutually and socially constructed, and therefore students are a vital part of their own learning and knowledge attainment).
On a related note, there are also big pushes for the use of teacher identities as sources of disruption and of “teaching moments” in the classroom. That is, a teacher might disclose some aspect of their identity in order to illustrate a new perspective on class material or to disrupt student beliefs about what people of that identity experience/whether they belong in the university. It’s pretty theory-heavy stuff!
What bugs me, though, is your idea that Leslie being a lesbian and disclosing that she’s a lesbian somehow “sexually charges” the classroom environment. That’s… just not ok. I encourage you to consider why the assumption of straightness or a straight teacher disclosing their marital status isn’t considered sexual.
I mean, yeah, it’s entirely innocuous to admit to be of any particular orientation and that needs to be pointed out, but also this is a gender and sexuality course. At the post-secondary level, targeted at adult students. Mature subject matter is gonna be covered.
Literally she segued into her experiences coming out as a Lesbian because the class was discussing the difficulties that LGBT individuals face when they come out as Lesbians, Gay Men, Bisexuals, and Transgender Individuals. That’s just a weird line in the sand draw there.
I’ve had very few professors that did not have at least 75% class discussion, especially in philosophy and related classes. The ones that didn’t were math and sciences.
Leslie has a lesson plan? I was thinking she just asked people if they had questions pertaining to gender studies and discussed them, more of a Socratic method of teaching than a textbook course.
I’m sure she’d still need a lesson plan, even if it’s loosely structured. Know what topics she needs to cover and what facts she needs to divulge throughout a given lecture.
Just on an institutional level I don’t think she’d be allowed to teach the class some random smattering of information and send the students on their way.
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Oh, my stars! Such language!
*fans self*
*faints*
*clutches pearls*
*causes pince-nez to drop*
*mic drop*
*screeching feedback*
*Dipper Pines sneezing*
*spit-take*
*cats and dogs living together*
*mass hysteria*
*Goes wide-eyes in shock* *drops monocle*
O my googly-moogly! Such language!
In this link, Tokino’s singing represents Joyce’s swearing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVUtAgnU7dI
*listens to the link below, laughs* Oh god internet, never change. That was beautiful.
Spatula-girl, I remember that clip oh so well. 😀
*People panicking in the streets*
*I lean back in my beach chair, watching the madness, singing an R.E.M’s It’s The End Of The World… *
*Daniel joins in the song (he’s the 1 who introduced me to it 😛 )*
Heh, that was long coming and welcome indeed. Bravo Joyce
No! No! No! Please don’t drop mics!
I must refer you to this comic http://q2qcomics.com/comic/q2q151/
drops heavy mic shaped stone insted preverly on some ones foot
*looks askance through a lorgnette*
*corset seams burst*
Joyce: “The church can…can sit on it!”
(Everyone on earth who is wearing a monocle has it suddenly pop out without warning.)
Joyce: “Sit and spin, church!”
*offers spinny office chair to church officials*
Everyone on earth suddenly finds themselves in possession of a monocle for the sole purpose of having it pop out.
Oh, dear me!
shit, now I want a monocle D=
You mean you don’t have one already? Monocles are super handy! They make seeing things up close super easy.
I think you are talking about a jeweler’s loupe.
Col. Klink on Hogan’s Heroes’ wore a monocle regularly.
If you’re wearing a jeweller’s loop as a monocle, you’re doing something wrong.
Am I?
Or something RIGHT!
Nope, just a regular monocle ground to my close-up prescription. So much easier than bifocals or reading glasses. I usually end up closing my non-dominant eye when I’m doing close work anyway so I only need the one lens.
Mine is tricked out, I had it made in stereo.
*Swoons in general direction of fainting couch. Realizes in mid swoon that I for some unfathomable reason wears a monocle. Freaks out and tries to abort swoon. Falls on my ass instead. Cymbal crash is heard. Pie is thrown in my face. Monocle drops.
I loose my pants.*
Just going to
ignore the fact that “I lose my pants” is spelled wrong, and thenlink to Abe Simpson doing just that.I think it’s more entertaining as “loose”.
Release the pants!
Very decent of you.
So… you just had that gif laying around for situations like this?
I’d look bloody good in a monocle.
OKAY FINE! When I get home I’ll put a monocle on your gravitar. Happy?
id very much like that
I was totally wearing ten monocles and they all popped off at once! They fell right into my nonalcoholic martini. Gracious goodness me! You tell ’em, Joyce!
But I have no monocle. Just glasses. I guess I could take them off dramatically.
Both of them!
Thats actually pretty filthy
She actually used the word “cheesed.”
And she somehow spoke it with a Z!
Land sakes! *fetches smelling salts*
I, for one, am outraged!
I’ve put up with a lot of terrible things in this strip, like people taking the Lord’s name in vain, and women walking with men without the supervision of an adult chaperone, but Joyce’s potty-mouth is the straw that broke the camel’s back.
I will notify the One Million Moms and mobilize a boycott against your demonic comic, Mr. Willis. Prepare to have your work not read by 300 moms that never even read your comic before!
OH noes! Not that, anything but thatQ
You make me think of Richard. 🙂
Did she say Cheesed? Oh my sweet dairy lord.
Do we have a breakthrough? It looks like we’ve had a breakthrough.
She still needs to learn how to cuss.
Embrace the F-bomb, Joyce! It’s the most versatile word in the English language! It can be used as nearly every word in a sentence: Fuck the fucking fuckers! 😀
Yep, it was pretty much at that point I quit hiding my swearing from people and embraced the power of the F-bomb. 😀
All we need to do is strap her to a chair and repeatedly show her the scene in Planes Trains and Automobiles where Steve Martin talks to the rental car clerk, and she’ll be right as rain.
You never read Roomies/It’s Walky did you?
This isn’t porn, it merely borrows the vocabulary.
And it’s way more entertaining than The Sound of Music.
Indeed, it can be used as just about any part of speech, as demonstrated in this famous example “Word! the wording worder wording worded up wording bad.”
You left out “…is fucked up!”
I dunno, “Dude” is pretty versatile as well.
How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the F-Bomb
I love that I got that reference.
That is the best reference.
I think Joyce dropping an F-bomb is a sign of the Apocalypse, isn’t it? Also, re: the alt-text, Lecture As Exposition?
You stopped worrying and learned to love the f-bomb.
If she wants to save foul language for when it should have meaning, this is probably the best time. Then again, swearing a blue streak in the middle of lecture is ill-advised…
She’s stated before she wants to save it for some moment when she “really means it.” One must wonder what it will take for her to finally cross that threshold. The four horsemen? Another democrat prez?
>four horsemen gallop in
>silence settles over the campus
>the silence is pierced by Joyce’s voice
FUCK!
I think at that point Jesus is supposed to have whisked her off to Heaven already, so if she’s still there when the Horsemen show up, she’s got nothing to lose by swearing anymore.
Heck, if she’s still there, it’s probably why she swore.
Agh, and I just reread shortpacked!
So I was like “Yeah, all this happened… oh right, wrong universe”
Aw Joyce baby
Aw, yeah, Joyce! And Leslie continues to be awesome and someone really needs to find Becky and get her to her new mentor.
Agreed.
Lesbian training is like Jedi training.
Somebody with more art skills than me please draw Leslie and Becky in Jedi robes? Please?
I second the motion.
Thirded. Plus if Becky’s dad is drawn as a Sith Lord.
Would that be darth Stupid?
Darth Madeher? Made her run away by trying to force reprogramming on her?
Either way, Artist, start your artworks…
YOMOTOE! Your presence is requested. 😀
There are always two of them?
Leslie’s personal history (almost identical to her other incarnation’s, up to a point) is extremely well handled here, both in the strip and by Leslie herself. I’ve had teachers who use their classes as excuses to share personal anecdotes with a captive audience, but that’s not what’s going on here. Les is using her past– which she is only “disclosing” now, after weeks of classes– to lend extra weight to the material, to bring it out of a statistical abstraction and into reality. (She has no way of knowing that Becky has already done that for Joyce and Dorothy, but even if she did, she’d have other students to worry about.)
(Also, the use of “full disclosure” is a nice touch, a gesture of respect to her young-adult charges that many professors don’t manage.)
Agreed on all counts.
Also agreed on all counts, but with one more thing to add: She is revealing a potential bias, which is something that more sources of information and knowledge need to do. This not only invites the students to question what she is saying (which is something most professors should do, even when they’re RIGHT, like she is)… it also models a degree of intellectual integrity that freshmen can benefit from.
She is not only a cool teacher. She is a GOOD teacher.
She’s not just the teacher they need, she’s the teacher they deserve…
Yep. Seriously, good on her. Best teacher right here.
I’m still amazed by Leslie’s teaching skills. A+.
I knew a professor that kept a running list of relatives of various degree who chose to live in geologically dangerous locations. Landslides, earthquakes, floods, and brought them out as the course covered various land forms.
Ffft. I live in New Zealand. Family is, lessee now, Auckland (volcanoes), Hamilton (dams, volcano), Taranaki (volcano), Christchurch (earthquakes, floods).
There’s two MSc degrees in earth science in the family. I only did two papers myself, but the resources and hazards course was fun.
I had a highschool English teacher like that. It made me very uncomfortable.
In my college, gender studies was ESPECIALLY prone to this. There wasn’t much encouragement for free thinking or respect for contradicting viewpoints. One teacher stubbornly insisted on referring to all students as women, despite the trans students that it really upset and sympathetic students asking her to stop. I am incredibly interested in studying gender, I do it in my own time and am probably as much of an expert as those with degrees, but the teachers in the department made the thought of getting a gender studies major utterly unpalatable to me.
Hanky Panky You Church???
Yeah, she won’t say any darn poop like swears.
UGH!! Such language!
Well she’s not going to say Fuck now is she?
Oh now I get it.
Remember, “hanky panky” is her term for an action that can be described with a word starting with the letter “f” that rhymes with “duck”…
(Yes, I realize I could’ve just translated it and used the word in question, but it’s more fun to lead you to the answer.)
FIRETRUCK??
*swoons*
I have that reaction too. Makes Fireman Sam awkward.
I thought the correct term was “Fudge you”
I hear fudge, flip, frick, frack, frig, eff…that’s all I can think of. But yeah, never “hanky-panky.” Maybe fudge (and the others I mentioned) are too close to the actual word for her to be comfortable saying them.
Feth is another one I like.
i think after all we have seen in shortpacked and here we can safely add “Faz” to the list. i now i would feel pretty Insulted if someone would say “Faz you” to me.
He’s the f-in is f- that doesn’t know how to f-!
She has said “fudge” before. I think what’s going on here is that it’s too far from the intended swear.
“frell”. That’s one you missed.
Frell?
Oh damn. Missed yours.
I’m surprised that Joyce has the presence of mind to think of “hanky panky you.” Wouldn’t she just say, I dunno, “Fudge you” or something?
Joyce, you’re weird. But that’s why we love you.
I’m slightly disappointed “babies” wasn’t on her list of substitute swears. Because the church’s stance is totally babies.
It is, in fact, babies MacIntyre.
… get it, because MacIntyre is Becky’s last name? … I’ll… just be going now.
Guys, guys! What if, what if Mr. Toe’s first name is “Babies”? That would make him, quite literally, “Babies MacIntyre”! (No wait, it’s “Ross” isn’t it? Well, how about his middle name then?)
Lesbian-related hanky panky, you say?
Doesnt have as much of a ring as “I’m getting soft serve church” would have
Oh pre-marital hanky-panky!
“Intercourse the penguin!” ( Graham Chapman )
Hey, hey , hey! Really, penguins? (indicates origin of name)
Really really.
I dunno, that looks more like a puffin to me.
Joyce’s substitutes for profanity give me life
Hanky-panky has been known to do that.
First instance of someone invoking the cheese in Dumbiverse.
Actually, I think Walky says “holy cheese” sometimes, and I’m pretty sure Willis confirmed that he’s referring to the character from his favorite cartoon.
Here we are: http://itswalky.tumblr.com/post/100445403797/i-commented-this-a-few-days-ago-but-just-recently
Hey, that was my ask.
For some reason I got irrationally proud that Willis had actually responded to my question. Still feels good. (I
Willis responding to an ask of mine was actually led me to get into the fandom (for lack of a better word) more. Having the creator so involved with the fanbase makes it so much more interesting.
I once reblogged a set of photos of the IU campus hehe had posted on Tumblr, because I lived and went to school there. I added some irreverent comment about a teacher I’d had for the benefit of my college friends- when Willis reblogged and RESPONDED to my comment, I might have been a little star-struck.
Yes that is nice,
BUT NO ONE WILL TELL ME IF STARFIRE EVER GOT READY FOR A DATE WITH A BALLOON!!!!!
I have to know if it was a horrifying short or a nightmare.
I’m pretty sure that was a nightmare.
Walky’s actually already done it at least once. The Cheese in this universe is a character in Dexter & Monkey Master, so fans of the show will reference him from time to time.
And we already know how successful Walky was at converting Joyce. Take of that what you will.
Being cheesed (or cheezed, in this case) is an actual real world expression unrelated to The Cheese though. Willis may have chosen to use that version of ticked off as a nod to fans, but I doubt Joyce is thinking of the cartoon character.
Isn’t Joyce a huge fan of the show or something? so she seriously may have picked up the habit of saying things like that.
Leslie tailors her lesson plans to her students’ ongoing emotional crises.
So it’s a drama class now?
Don’t you mean …theatre?
Journalism? Nah.
Next week is “masked vigilante” special
Neither Amber nor Danny nor even Ethan are in the class though so what would be the point?
Extra credit?
Is keeping drama out of your life the equivalent of sitting in the back and not participating?
I don’t think so. Mike’s life is pretty drama-free (from what we can see), but nobody could say he’s not participating in class-discussion.
He does, however, incite drama, so he doesn’t count.
The adorable, righteous fury!
I relate to her adorable fury so much.
Joe’s determined avoidance of other people’s important issues looks like it’s about ready to come to an end.
One can only hope.
Nah, he’s just watching Joyce to see if it’s time to hand over those twenty bucks.
another one for the textbooks, willis
This was actually pretty intense.
Someone fetch the smelling salts!
Way to cover your bases, Joyce. Sarah would be proud.
Heh, baseball bats
*stands up, claps for Joyce, sits back down*
*Slowclap*
I love that third panel. Look at the denial burning away. Joyce is turning her feelings of hurt and betrayal and compassion into determination. And looks like Dottie has figured out how invaluable Leslie is in the struggle to rebuild Becky’s future – perfect. Satisfying comic.
Holy crap, Leslie’s a lesbian!?!
PLOT TWIST!
Honestly, I gotta say, I just don’t think it fits her character. Weird decision on the author’s part, really out of left field.
I mean, come on! It’s not as if her character started with the thought “I need to add a lesbian here”.
I’m going to go ahead and assume this entire chain of comments is sarcastic. (Because if not, there are some other seriously flawed assumptions going on here.)
I’d say silly myself, but yeah, pretty much.
Tongue-in-cheek, even.
Mostly silly for me too.
Nah, I thought she was as Straight as Ethan!
Seriously, with a name like Leslie Bean, who could have EVER suspected!?
Roz is shocked. Shocked!
Robin can’t believe it – she has to check for herself.
She was destined to become one with a name like that.
Indeed. Just like Victor Fries became Mr. Freeze and Edward Nygma became the Riddler >.>
Are you saying Leslie is a Batman villain?
Not sure if they would allow a Batman villain with the name Lesbian in this day and age.
It’ll be allowed as long as she can breathe in space.
Oh God, that sounds like something from the 50s. An evil lesbian seducing wholesome wives and leading them astray. (For extra misogeny/homophobia, the day can be saved by legendary playboy Bruce Wayne seducing them in turn and make them stop their evil ways).
Wow… I didn’t realise when I started writing how close that plot thread (which was an actual sub genre in the pulp era) comes to the idea of corrective rape. This turned much more horrifying than intended.
New plan: Let’s not have a batman villain named the lesbian.
Way to make me remember my earlier, shittier self who made jokes about corrective rape. I was a disgusting human being at one point in my life.
New-New plan: have a hero named the Lesbien, and have some hunk of a villain (Maybe Luthor) do it.
Proposal: a villain (anti-heroine?) who was once a mild-mannered lesbian, but got coerced into an experimental corrective behavioral treatment that gave her super-powers, warped her mind, and filled her with uncontrolled rage. Now she lives for vengeance, and stalks the night as… The Les-Been.
Talk about Fridge-Horror…
I think that a character who’s defining trait is sexual orientation would run a VERY high risk of being offensive somehow no matter what we do.
Maybe unless it’s a PSA. “NOT SO FAST, MRS NORMATIVE – THE LESBIAN IS HERE TO TEACH YOU ALL ABOUT SAME-GENDER RELATIONSHIPS”
@Deanatay, maybe she coerced the great Poison Ivy herself early on in her villain story (Part of her origin story, but after the civilian portions) and convinced Ivy to use her for an experiment which gave her vine-like arms, but at the expense of making her a bean pant! To make it more interesting, she could have been interested in Ivy and her work from the get-go, so she knew exactly what to say to her when they met. (Sort of like that one weirdo who actually listened to Ivy and headed her warnings, even though no one else did)
Not sure if they would allow a Batman villain with the name Lesbian in this day and age.. “I am, the Lady Licker”? Enemy of Batgirl/Female Robin in costume, close friend when not?
Sorry, had to be said…
‘Tis probably not that hard to become a Batman villain I would think.
It looks like having an appropriate name and some kind of lab accident is all you need…
Well, there was that one back in the early Nineties called “Pagan“… I liked her.
And don’t forget how Joseph Kerr became Catwoman.
A man became Catwoman? Seriously?
It wasn’t subtle.
My gaydar went off the minute she stepped into the strip . . .
Well and she kind of already came out to us all. “You’re trying to set me up with your sister, aren’t you?” *Roz says something I can’t remember* “I didn’t say it wasn’t working.”
She actually said it straight out in the second strip she was in. I mean, she was obviously making a joke on the Gender Studies stereotype, but it’s “ha ha, only serious”.
At least in this universe we found out her name before we were told that she’s a lesbian.
That’s because in the other universe she was supposed to be a one-off joke character. But she was too awesome to not return and rule us all.
At any other point Joe would have laughed at Joyce for that ridiculous facsimile of swearing. Now he kinda looks impressed.
I didn’t even know there was an upper limit to Joe’s willingness to laugh at others.
I wonder what’ll be Joyce’s reaction when she learns about her new sister. Maybe she’ll start swearing.
Only, I didn’t say “hanky-panky.” I said the word! The F-dash-dash-dash word!
… Okay I HEARD that one!
“They say they found your Hanky-Panky alien.”
Mother hanky-pankying snakes on a mother hanky-pankying plane!
Be afraid, religion, Joyce has had it with your bullshit.
organized religion, that is an important distinction to make.
Organized religion is like organized crime? That’s why I’m a Unitarian Pagan.
Not exactly the best analogy. ‘Unorganized’ crime is still crime.
I might be missing something here, but there is no difference between any of the more than 40,000 versions of christianity in that they are all still religions.
This almost sounds like the ‘no true Scottsman’ fallacy.
Apologies in advance if I missed something.
… So is unorganized religion not religion? Some Discordians would be sad to hear that.
Okay. Poorly worded. Let me reiterate:
Not the best analogy. Organized religion has problems because it’s organized. Organized crime is bad because it’s crime – removing the organization does not remove the evil in that case.
Christianity is surprisingly similar to the yakuza.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrvVVreWE6w
In one corner, Joyce, in the other the Church. The Church have generations of systematic oppression of LGBT people going for it. But Joyce is angry (like – REALLY angry) and fights for love.
Place your bet, good people.
We know who historical Jesus would side with.
Didn’t organized religion already manage to kill him that one time
Yeah, but the dude is even harder to kill than I am. I was only out for 2 minutes, he was buried before he came back.
Actually, he was entombed. But still, three days, that’s impressive.
If she gets tired, tag me in. When I get tired, I’ll tag someone else who’s pissed in. There are plenty of us.
I’ll load up, maybe even try out Daniel the Human’s old cricket bat, see if it’s still solid…
Cragalanch wouldn’t mind helping either
As focused on being caring as Joyce is I like to think she would have been upset at the charities not accepting lgbt youths even before the Becky thing. But the degree of emotion is much higher now of course.
I agree, the Becky thing just made it personal, now she has context for what she would have already known to be bad.
I think she would be angry at religions who flat-out reject all LGBT+ kids under all circumstances, but uneasily accept organizations that “merely” demand they don’t act on their true feelings or attend rehabilitation therapy – she did consider homosexuality a sin like lying, after all. You shouldn’t let someone die in the street for lying but asking them to stop while under your care is not unreasonable.
Ironically, she’s helping Ethan lie about his sexuality, even though she hates liars.
Mainly because up to about, oh, twelve hours ago in strip-time, the only gay person she knew was gay was in serious self-loathing and so her previous worldview that gay people could be “cured” wasn’t challenged.
I’m pretty sure the next time she sees Ethan, there’s going to be some serious talking going on.
You know, next year most likely.
It still both weirds me out and amazes me that months in real time could only be a day in the comic strip. Comic timescales are weird!
It sounds like she’s now realizing that trying to “fix” Ethan is a really bad idea.
But she doesn’t see it as lying; she sees it as them both helping each other to avoid temptation.
So totally different from where she’s at.
The thing is, at that point you don’t see the harm. What’s the harm in trying to cure the soul while taking people in? If they aren’t willing to turn to God, then they aren’t really willing to change their lives.
Not to mention, people in the church are just the nicest people you will ever meet, they are so accepting, until you talk about homosexuality. Then the venom just comes out. Fortunately, outside of a few hate the sin not the sinners(which goes gangbusters with other Christians btw) it generally doesn’t come up in 18 years leading up to college.
People are just so helpful and nice until you realize who they aren’t helpful and nice to.
Just had to add.. I know a good polish girl, and does accept that as long as you are nice to people, and are in love with *someone* it does not matter what gender they are…
I have calmed ‘frightened’ guys I know, by saying “if it was a girl, would you be frightened?? no? I am sure girls have the same worries about men.. :/ “
It’s funny. I’ve heard about plenty of Religious people who are not very nice, 1 even replied to Daniel the Humans “Yeah, I barrack for the Big Guy (God)” with “Well unless you follow this version of the Bible, you’re going to Hell”, as well as another who just a just plain nasty old bat. And yet there’s a group of bikers who regularly do charity work & other nice stuff, plus there’s annual biker gift-delivering rides at Christmas here in WA. Funny how that all works out…
It was kinda clear that Joyce was already on the verge last strip from the look on her face, she is certainly down the bloody rabbit hole now… El-Ahrairah help her ;D (yeah, sorry needed a wee touch of levity here)
Personally, I think she needs Loki in her life. :3 Or just in her. Or both. :3
May Aphrodite bless her loving heart. 🙂
Did Joyce just tell her church to fuck off?
Achievement unlocked… I think…..
And now everyone in the room thinks Joyce is lesbian.
“Now”?
Well, duh. It’s a prerequisite for the class.
OH MY GOD! This looks like one of my arguments! LOL! Oh Joyce.
She holds on to her faith while separating it from the entirely human institution that does that actual evil. That will be important later, I’m sure.
I hope so. Willis may be an atheist now, as am I, but I wouldn’t mind seeing Joyce keep the faith while still growing as a character.
I agree. I suppose my being ostensibly Christian helps with that, and I’d be lying if I said that where I’d like to see her end up doesn’t basically match where I am now. But I also think it’d be an unrealistic change for Joyce to become atheist in the small amount of her life that this comic will be able to cover.
I don’t know, people can change a lot in A few weeks. The way I see it, we’re all just one traumatic summer camp away from completely reconstructing our identity.
I completely agree. God is far too central to Joyce for her to turn her back on it. Given her strong belief in a loving God who supports her compassionate identity I could only see her breaking her faith if she started researching other religions and sects to a large degree.
It would definitely be in-character for her, and while Joyce is autobiographical to a point she’s not entirely so. (To the best of my knowledge, Willis does not have a trans sister, or indeed sibling of any kind.)
I could see her having a brief (relatively) crisis of faith at some point, because it’s college and her world view’s only going to keep getting shaken up, but she’s managed to reconcile things pretty well so far.
(Er, trans sibling of any kind. I’m pretty sure he has at least one sibling?)
Two: a “little” brother in the Army and a “little” sister in the Air Force (he’s the only bum civilian).
A valuable distinction, here. Faith can be a precious, valuable thing to a person; something that keeps them alive in the harshest of circumstances, that gives them the strength to persevere…
…and as well-intentioned a mortal, fallible organization can be in wanting to structure similar people’s faith, things invariably go awry. It’s why I’m a theist (specifically an agnostic theist)…but I’m not a Christian…
She holds on to her faith while separating it from the entirely human institution that does that actual evil. That will be important later, I’m sure..
Hey, Daniel here, Screwball’s Human friend…
While the Bible is supposed to be God’s word passed on to man, it has unfortunately been…tainted…over time. Translations don’t always work out right ( As Joyce looked up earlier), plus there have been various “Holy Men” throughout history who have deemed many holy relics sacrilegious & have destroyed or altered them (just as bad).
Me, I still barrack for the Big Guy, but the mopey, saddening churches I used to go to growing up have been lacking my attendance for a while…
…Looking back, I was actually rather Joyce-like for a while there too. Interesting how things turn out…
Oh Joyce, I can totally relate to what you’re going through.
Actually, wow… I really love this… Joyce may be having her problems fully accepting Becky’s recent revelation, but -damn- if she wont Near Curse out anyone who gives her actual shit over it!
Her pure maelstrom of empathy for all around her is a force that could shatter mountains. I love her for it.
Leslie’s answer wasn’t very helpful. She answered it all generally but you’d think maybe some people in the class would ask for specific reasons to help people not just to assuage their conscious. Plus personal sharing isn’t helping in this situation either. There are homeless shelters places, give some damn references.
I’m sure she’d have provided specifics if someone asked for specifics or she’d have handed out a pamphlet with adresses after class if someone came to her in private.
I was wondering about that, too. There are non-religious groups and charities that help LGBTQ teens who have either runaway from or been kicked out of their homes, right?
Not a lot, and HEAVILY depends on your geographical region (predictably).
Such organizations are very rare, especially in places like the Bible Belt, and they need a lot of help. Here’s one: http://www.luciesplace.org/
And given the demographics in that part of Indiana…
The conversation in class has been about a broad, general context, and Leslie’s answers have been in the same mode. Given that she’s clever and that all of five seconds have passed since the last comic, I wouldn’t be surprised if she closes the class with a “If anyone’s interested in knowing more, or knows someone who needs support, here are some contact details.”
She’ll might think someone in class needs it, but she’ll be more right than she knows.
Personal sharing seems good for the context, too, because it sets up an anchor to the rest of the conversation. It ALSO means she’s framing this not just around Joyce and Dorothy, but potentially heading off anyone in the class who’s thinking quietly to themselves that those numbers can’t be right and are exaggerated for political purpose.
I’ve done university level teaching. There are Tricks.
I get the feeling she is building up to it. After all the strip can’t be more than 30 seconds long.
IU has pretty excellent LGBT support services. The campus has been a center for research in sexual psychology since the days of Kinsey, which partly contributes to a thriving gay culture in the community. I am sure Les has plenty of resources to recommend.
That is a bit off the point, though. IU may be a decent place for LGBT students, but Bloomington is not a great place for homeless people in general. There are low barrier places that will help anyone who asks for help (they need not even be actually homeless), but the local government has decided that the way to deal with homeless people is to harass them into leaving. They made it illegal to sleep in public (seriously), have had cops sit outside of one of the larger soup kitchens and hand out tickets for the littlest things like jaywalking and having bicycle tires improperly inflated, and declared a tent shelter for homeless people declared a public nuisance and threatened the property owner who set it up with a $2,500/day fine until it was taken down (which put about 40 people back into the streets). Throw in that the specific concern is for a young lesbian and it becomes even worse.
IU may have great LGBT support but they’re not going to provide housing to a runaway who’s not enrolled.
There’s a limit to how informative you can get in five or six panels a day without the story coming to a grinding halt while Leslie lectures. There isn’t as much room in those speech bubbles as you might think, especially if you want to have room for the actual characters too.
She was asked a general question, she gave a general answer.
Leslie isn’t aware of specific issues. When she becomes aware, I think she’ll provide some guidance.
I really want Joyce to approach Leslie after this. Obviously it’s an issue that’s gotten to her for more reasons than one, but Leslie is just the kind of person who would be approachable, able to give direction without prying, and wouldn’t make Joyce worry she’s giving too much away like she did with Dorothy. (Then I really want Leslie to go sort Ethan out.)
Out of everything Joyce said, ‘walk off’ is the part I found the strangest.
It’s actually ‘walk back’, which is even weirder (as expressions go).
It makes about as much as “advancing an opinion”.
About as much *sense* as. Argh.
Not really? It just means backing off something you said, usually without admitting that you were wrong, but saying you phrased it badly or were unfortunately misunderstood. You hear it a lot discussing politics and politicians.
Yep. For instance, Gov. Christie recently walked back a stance on voluntary vaccinations after others attacked his position.
(I use this example only because it was in the news recently)
I don’t think I’d ever heard it before, but I guess it makes sense?
I find it adorable and hilarious that when Joyce is angry, these substitute words just start flying out from everywhere. I have a friend who gets the same way when she’s really pissed off. Granted she swears a lot of the time, but when she’s legitimately pissed, she’s all substitute words and it comes off as if it’s not so bad.
…that sounds fascinating OvO
My wife swears when she’s REALLY angry, but more often uses substitute (sometimes invented) words. And then she’ll mix and match. Ends up with such gems as referring to my brother as a “fuckface fuckwad stinky-pants”. I’m not over that one yet.
God Damnit Joyce I was totally feeling your empowered anger but its hard to take you seriously when you talk like that.
Catch that emotion, Joyce. Take it in your hands and forge it into a weapon. Wield it against those who would unjustly make others’ lives difficult or stand by as they suffer. Hanky-panky them, indeed!
This phrasing has me picturing Joyce going around beating people with a dildo.
Well, she’s already nine-tenths of the way there.
That’s quite an Amber thing to say.
Well Amazi-Girl doesn’t have a sidekick just yet…
Amazigirl and Porn Lord, hmm needs work.
Joyce is now just a couple religious crises away from Pedro Cerrano’s speech to Jobu.
Yes, Joyce! You tell the church!
Now flip some tables.
Flip ALL THE TABLES!!!
Jesus did it!
(You might have to get Leslie to help like he did.)
#ThatMomentWhenYouRealizeYouWereThinkingOfTheWrongJesus
So…you mean that Leslie == Simon(Thomas)?
And by extension from that, Joyce == Jesus???
…I’m surprisingly okay with this allegory.
No. I was thinking of our historical Jesus instead of Shortpacked!’s Jesus.
It’s like she’s speaking another language. I mean I grew up with some pretty crazy pentecostals, but I never heard language that obtuse.
This would be the best time for Becky to have overheard the entire conversation!
Okay….there…..it…..is. “It” has brewing for some time and it just perked right on over. Good Joyce- you just woke up. I do notice she left herself a back door -‘may walk that back, but right now she is Cheesed”.
I get the idea that from Joyce’s face she didn’t know/realize that her Church (and others) treat LBGT that way. But, then I don’t see her family or social group discussing it in any meaningful way. People know people are hungry in this country, but until it happens to some one personal…it doesn’t register.
I wonder if Joe just had an ‘awaking’ looking at Joyce as if never seen her likes before?
Leslie ……Bean Think about it, sound it out.
But seriously, if you didn’t follow previous – verses you wouldn’t know. Leslie is definitely a Lesbian, she and Robin are married in Shortpacked.
Er, I do think it was implied in this universe that Leslie was a lesbian. She has a big ol’ crush on Representative DeSanto.
Well, who doesn’t?
Personally, I think Leslie has terrible taste in women.
I mean, I know I wouldn’t put up with Robin’s bullshit.
Sure was entertaining to watch, though!
Ditto. Robin is one of the few characters in the two ‘Verses I actively dislike.
And I don’t think until staring it right in her face she really realized that no, the thought of telling someone they needed “fixing” when you love them that much, after you’ve seen what it does to their psyche, isn’t at all okay.
I’m pretty much in Joyce’s place here. I’ve been religious all my life and that’s not likely to change, but by every curse in the book do I ever get mad at the church sometimes. It gets hard to argue that faith in a higher power can be a force for good when so many people who share my views are such complete… melon wedges.
Nonagon, your invective is as delightful as it is delectable.
I’d say that simply having faith in a God does very very little to dictate what morals you follow. If you believe in Odin you might think war, drinking, rape, slavery, and human trafficking were all good things. If you believe in the christian God you can believe in almost any philosophy held by the western world up to the modern era. The structure around that faith, what you believe that god wants, thinks, stands for, fights for; that is what determines your morals or lack thereof.
I more follow Thor than Odin, but most of us view rape, slavery, and human trafficking as being as foul as the rest of you.
Drinking is fine; drinking to excess is just stupid; you may need your wits at a moment’s notice so sending them flying irretrievably from you is stupid and irresponsible, especially if there’s a not-unreasonable chance you may need to, for example, deal with a sick kid in the middle of the night or something.
War is unfortunately sometimes necessary. I suspect that NATO will be in reasonably open warfare with Russia fairly soon and the same with Coalition forces (what a dumb moniker; “Allies” was much better and sounded less like they were being run by MSNBC or something) and ISIL. War should not be undertaken lightly and should only be used when other options have been exhausted. Having said that, though, there are times when standing by and doing nothing is worse than war. Doing nothing to fight Germany in WWII would have been the wrong choice; standing by and not supporting the Ukraine or fighting against ISIL would also, IMO, be morally wrong.
OTOH we don’t really have the concept of sin, although we do have concepts of good and bad. Is something harmful, either to oneself, one’s family, the planet? Then it is bad. Killing kids is inherently bad. Following another pantheon; meh, who cares? They aren’t going to Niflhelm or anything; why would they? Their own gods (or entropy) will see to them.
TL;DR: I take your point but I wanted to clarify. Oh! Here’s one that differs from the way Christians view such things; we don’t do the “turn the other cheek thing” and aren’t forbidden from lying. Actually; we aren’t forbidden anything; we’re just counselled what is a good thing to do and what is dumb and a bad idea.
A man should be loyal through life to friends,
And return gift for gift,
Laugh when they laugh,
but with lies repay
A false foe who lies.
If you find a friend you fully trust
And wish for his good-will,
exchange thoughts,
exchange gifts,
Go often to his house.
If you deal with another you don’t trust
But wish for his good-will,
Be fair in speech but false in thought
And give him lie for lie.
I am certain that modern Norse believers are mostly good people, I just wanted to use Norse because it’s an easy target what with all the bad PR the Vikings got him.
I love Joyce in this strip. Yeah, her language is silly, but she’s trying so hard and it’s so clear how much she cares for Becky. She’s a real darling.
panel three, translated into normal-speak:
I will cut a bongo
I get the feeling that she will have a rather different conversation with her mum next time she calls than if she had answered the phone at lunch.
Oh my god, Mike made all this possible, with Walky bringing the assist.
Im still looking forword to the day some one pisses her of so much that she actully swears
If this wasn’t enough for her to start, I fear that when she finally does, she will completely lose her shit in the process.
Coming face to face with butthole-dad-who-looks-like-a-toe might be it.
I think it will take longer (in real time, mind you) for Willis to put an actual swear word in Joyce’s mouth than it did for him to finally embrace his own inner Pornlord.
Walkyverse Joyce swore once.
At God Himself.
Joyce doesn’t do things by half-measures.
+1
Guess the Church had better watch out in this universe, then.
Joyce is cheezed, and she’s armed with a ‘lightsaber’.
Here’s some commentary based on personal experience, conversations with uninformed friends, and conjecture:
It’s strange that she has all these swear-substitutes. The language of people who don’t use swear words doesn’t usually provide a place for swear-words at all, because those people are used to modifying the wording for intensity rather than using swearing as an intensity modifier. Joyce’s language here is what you get from a child who’s grown up around parents who are used to swearing (when it suits the occasion), but don’t want to swear around children. Then the child learns that sort of swearing, and when they get older, at some point it will likely be in their best interest to learn to swear ‘properly’ so that they’ll be less of an outcast among people (like Joe, for example) who see swearing as mature and normal.
That leads to 3 conclusions:
1. Joyce’s parents, or one of them, do not behave perfectly, because she’s picked up this speech pattern from them. (By ‘perfectly’ I mean according to their own ideals.)
2. Joyce may well actually swear in the future.
3. Joe’s attitude to Joyce’s swearing really annoys me.
I always feel like I’m going to be misunderstood when I read back over my posts. I didn’t mean to suggest that my personal experience and conjecture were valid, by calling my friends ‘uninformed’ on the subject – it was meant to be clear that none of the three sources of my commentary qualify the view I’m expressing as a necessarily accurate one.
I’ve always found the distinction between church and god interesting in narratives. My favorite example is in Final Fantasy Tactics: The War of the Lions. Wherein a character branded a heretic by the church (organization) is found praying in a church (building).
Hehe, that can be confusing. The church operates out of churches.
There’s The Church, capital C, the organisation. Then churches, lower C, buildings. Then there’s Christianity which is whatever people make of it, and God (not exclusive to Christianity or to any Church) beyond that still.
Established Churches are all very different so it’s not unusual at all for someone to disagree with them whilst still identifying very strongly as a Christian. I don’t think Joyce will lose her faith at all, and I hope she doesn’t as that would be a truly horrible thing for someone with her background and family, but falling out with the Church looks like a good step.
It’s not that confusing at all. By entering and praying in a church (the building) the heretic has committed yet another offense against the Church (the religion), as he has now profaned and desecrated the structure by his presence. Yet another reason to fetch the thumbscrews, the chain, the stake, and the kindling.
Oh Joyce. Oh Joyce. I really do appreciate that her philosophy on life really is “love everyone, take care of everyone” and how pissed she gets that other people don’t follow that.
Really hoping that Joyce/Dorothy/Becky (one of them or all) go to Leslie for specific help. (Admittedly part of that might just because I want to see more Leslie. But I think they really need an adult.)
Joyce is AWESOME! She has already stood up to God for Becky’s sake. Now she’s ready to take on the church. And Dorothy is in full support mode. It’s obvious for Leslie (and Roz) that this is personal for Joyce, so I’m pretty sure they will offer help if Joyce does not ask herself. It actually seems like things are looking up for Becky…
…which is not in any way foreboding.
Oh man, seeing Leslie talk about this after re-reading Shortpacked! makes me ship DoA LesBin even MORE
I’m real proud of Joyce. It takes a lot of guts to break away from a lifelong foundation, but when faced with either supporting her best friend or the religious institution that she was raised in from birth, she chooses her best friend night-immediately. That’s difficult! Good for her.
I love Joyce haha.
also.. I hope this Leslie gets her happy. but I’m all shortpack used to that group
also.. anyone else feel like maybe Joyce will introduce becky.. and then some awkward hanky panky will occur in the background since becky isn’t a student and thereby valid for dating?
Leslie appears to be more of a responsible adult than that, at least in this continuity, but then she did try to get Robin’s attention already so who knows.
I’d be careful drawing a parallel there. Hitting on a woman who came to talk to your class is one thing, taking advantage of a young adult in crisis who comes to you for help is something else entirely.
I seriously doubt that Leslie would take advantage of a vulnerable teenager, holy cow.
I don’t think Leslie would do that – she’s gone through something very similar to what Becky is dealing with, is one of the most mature people in this comic (for whatever that’s worth), and thus should recognize how bad an idea that would be.
Besides, Becky has already been set up with Daisy by the readers.
…what?
Hanky-panky you, hanky-panky you, hanky panky you, you’re cool, hanky-panky you!
Wow I am actually kind of afraid to see the final straw that breaks Joyce’s no swear rule.
Hanky panky yeah!
Does NOT sound right coming from a Dina!
Does anything pretaining to sex or cursing sound necessarily right coming from Dina?
Imagine it in an absolute monotone, said while (as currently pictured) she’s trying to act ‘cool’.
Okay, that sounded like flutterguy. and no, it STILL doesn’t sound right!
Flutterguy had the best voice. 🙁 I’m kind of sad it’s gone for good, now.
Joyce: “FUNK you church!”
Church: *Unce Unce Unce Unce*
If she won’t swear here when will she o_O
I love Joyce’s swearing so much.
On another note, yay Joyce! The wool is being lifted from your eyes. I know that she’s not Catholic, but I’m bringing up the Catholic church for an anecdote. All her childhood life, my mom was very Catholic. But when she expressed the intrest to be a Priest, she was laughed at, which hurt her deeply. Slowly she began to see the many faults of the Church, including the fact that a blind eye is turned towards pedophilia, they are very sexist, (women cannot be leaders, EVER) and they seemed fake to my mom. She hated that the leaders were covered in jewels and lived lavish lives. She was horrified that they weren’t taking their vow of poverty as they were supposed to. While she is still connected to God, she has turned away from the Church, saying that she wants nothing to do with Christians who do not act like Christians. I think that this might be the path that Joyce will take.
I really can’t wait for Joyce to actually curse.
She reminds me so much of my mother in that she almost never cursed. So when she did, you knew poop was getting real.
I think it’d hold a sort of charm if Joyce made a conscious choice to never curse.
True, but, well…
My mother worked as a graphic designer for years next to a woman who cursed like a sailor. She never cursed, as I said.
One day she was fighting through a stomach bug as well as personal troubles and a guy was being difficult. She told him to ‘fuck off’ before she could stop herself, and the entire business stopped. Literally stopped and stared.
Mind you, nobody paid attention when the woman who cursed like a sailor did her thing. But my mom curses and it’s the end of the world.
So if Joyce ever breaks her no-cursing rule, we’ll know it’s an extremely serious/stressful situation.
When I play online games that include a swear filter, I usually leave it enabled just to see how many ways I can make impactful statements without resorting to the stock swear words. For example, capitalized “GODDAMN” is often stronger than a non-capitalized “fucking,” yet in most contexts “goddamn” is the less profane term. “What the fucking hell?” versus “What the GODDAMN hell?”
Apparently I was good enough at it that my old guild never heard me actually swear even over voice chat until after I’d been with them for over a year. Their startled reactions surprised me, as I never thought of myself as particularly swear-averse! (Don’t worry, I was merely expressing mild frustration at missing an optional event by minutes. I said “fuuuuuuuuck.”) I decided to swear more often after that, just so people’s expectations of me would better match my own expectations of myself.
It seems some of your mother’s habits have rubbed off on you.
…which is good; I actually hold people like Joyce in high esteem – to have such presence of mind and self control; I (irl, verbally) swear like a longshoreman that’s just dropped a metal crate on his foot after learning that his wife’s leaving him for another woman…after giving him the clap. I’m like your mother’s co-worker – the words don’t have very much impact for me.
So mad at the church Lesbians deserve shelter.
Still i have to admit that not shielding LGBT people would be more effective than shielding them and telling them that as long as they want your help they have to at least now act as such on premises. Those who are LGBT will still most likely express those tendencies on the organization’s grounds and as such the organization becomes a target for ridicule.
I don’t think I follow you.
I think the implication is that if the church offers to shelter LGBT people on the condition that they repent, they run the risk of helping people who lie about repenting? And, perhaps, further risk embarrassing, or blatant mockery, if non-heteronormitive activities are carried out under their noses? Maybe? My apologies to the original poster if that’s incorrect, I don’t mean to put words into anyone’s mouth!
Though, it seems rather less likely that a LGBT teen would sneakily deceive/ridicule/take advantage of a kindly Church, and rather more likely that a frightened, desperate LGBT teen may feel pressured to live a personally devastating lie in order to obtain basic necessities for survival. It’s hard to feel compassion for any charity on those grounds, when any “embarrassment” they risk is entirely predicated on anti-gay sentiment.
i was trying to avoid the ”on the condition that they repent’ even though in reality the church cant and go with that on the condition that the LGBT people not act LGBT while on church controlled grounds and i assume people know how most humans deal with authority telling them what to do
I thought I was following (‘yes, better to not get shelter at all than to be sheltered by a church that would try to use conversion therapy’), but then I hit the second paragraph and it all fell apart.
what i get from that second paragraph is that if you gonna do that anyway might as well never have come out to your family. its exactly the same thing but with strangers
“This lesson brought to you by the people who ensure that the local news is always relevant to the protagonist’s situation or the upcoming plot.”
I get the sense that today is just gonna be a really weird day for Joe. First Danny gets weird on him and now lesbians are people too? What’s next, he meets some attractive chick named Rachel who also loves engineering?
I suspect this Joe isn’t an engineer, though.
He also missed the whole Becky arc, didn’t he? So he has no context for this outburst.
Yeah, Joe doesn’t know (and, given yesterday, I hope she doesn’t tell him).
In a way he is experiencing the same thing as Joyce, and Billie, and Danny and… OK, pretty much half the cast. He came to college with A PLAN. Now it starts to crumble. He has ignored it up to now but he starts to realize that he has to change his attitude.
In his case it’s just a mild case. He can still sex up plenty of women, but he starts to realize that the solution to Danny’s problems might be more complex than “get laid and stop whining”. Also, it might not be as cool to fetishise lesbians as he had hoped.
And with this, Joyce just reached my level of Christianity. Still believe in God, but most churches and their practices can bite me.
Maybe Becky ends up having a chat with the teacher for some advice on what to do. And I think Joyce may be a bout to have an outburst…
This page makes me so happy and so sad and so angry all at the same time. ALL THE FEELS.
Uh oh. While it’s good to see Joyce denounce this injustice, she may wind up making things worse in her anger. My main worry is Joyce inadvertantly betraying Becky by loudly defending her. Unfortunately, secrecy is key at this stage, given the potential consequences.
How can she betray Becky when Becky’s the one yelling it at everyone she sees?
Becky’s sexuality doesn’t need to be hidden. The fact that she’s on the run because of her father and, to an extent, the church most certainly needs to be kept secret, however.
Yeah, Becky is outing herself to everyone she sees. I think she would be okay with it.
True, Becky has been quite vocal about her sexual orientation.
She may not care about Joyce “outing” her… but she may be upset about Joyce doing things behind her back (even if its ultimately for the best). Remember the last few times we saw Becky she seemed to be a bit miffed at Joyce, and wanted to kind of find her own way. She’s been through a lot and is probably a bit disoriented as a result. Joyce telling Becky “I found some help…” might cause a backlash.
I think if she was there to see Joyce blow up like this, she’d be awestruck and proud and ecstatically happy and…
…damn, just thinking how Becky would feel is making me need tissues, now :J
…hell, remember this? (specifically panel 6)
At last, the dam breaks
“Hanky-panky you”?
Whoa there young lady! Watch the language! Do you kiss your cute lesbian best friend with that filthy mouth?
‘Cause if so, Joe wants to watch.
I love watching Joyce’s character development.
Joyce turns me on so much. ._.
You share Becky’s fetish for bright-eyed, easily-scandalized Christian girls?
Don’t we all…? Don’t we all…
I am proud of Joyce. It is good seeing her grow.
If you made a T-shirt with angry-face Joyce from the last panel, and a word balloon that just said “HANKY-PANKY YOU, CHURCH!” I’d totally buy it. I bet a lot of other folks would too. 😀
Angie
*loads paypal account in anticipation*
I think that’s a fair distinction. It seems to be a great number of things that churches do that don’t really fit their own writings about the word of God, which unfortunately I have proven to be politically altered so many times it’s that it’s not even funny. I highly suspect that if there is a judgement, some of those whom use religion to justify their bigotry will quickly and firmly be disabused of any notion that it was ever appropriate.
Damn typos, should read “which unfortunately have been proven”.
Ah, that moment when your lauded “high ideals” cease to be an abstract and start being about real people…
I like to imagine for strips like this that DoA is a kid’s comic, and Joyce’s version of swear words are just censorship by the artist.
Good girl, Joyce. -Good girl-. I remember when that realization first hit me- I think I was about nine, I’d just realized what it meant to churches that my parents have an open relationship and my mom was mostly gay. And then started thinking about what that meant. And then had a good long cry about it.
Hanky Panky U sounds like an awesome college.
“I’ve had it with these mother hanky-pankying snakes on this mother hanky-pankying plane!”
Been waiting for this hammer to fall. I’ve read the same source material. For people who call themselves “Christian”, there sure doesn’t seem to be much Christ-like about some people who claim that name.
I-Is Joyce having a crisis of faith?!….Well I guess it’s more a disillusionment of organized religion but still.0_0
that crisis started a while back.
That crisis has been ongoing, yes, but this (if we were to liken it to a viral infection) is the point where the patient would start coughing or sneezing, showing obvious outward symptoms.
And “a while back” is a rather vague term when dealing with the time dilation present in DoA…
So Joyce will become satanist now?
One can only hope. Now that would make the Comic interesting.
Mike will guide her. First lesson: how to talk in black speech bubbles.
Oh I see.. one of the genuine Christians. An endangered species, but not extinct.
I also revise upwards my opinion of Joyce’s parents. Not absolutely everything they taught her was awful, there’s an unquenchable core of kindness there. Maybe they’re carriers – showing no symptoms themselves, but transmitting it to their offspring.
If anything you should lower your opinion of her parents, their attempt to brainwash their children to their beliefs to maintain control not only failed but backfired.
I doubt they intended anything that sinister. They were raised the exact same way as they’re raising Joyce right now, and they pretty clearly love her and the rest of their kids.
I mean, yes, they have some really shitty elements to their personalities, and I don’t think they’re ever going to change from them, but just like Leo from Shortpacked, they aren’t bad people. They’re just holding on to some terrible viewpoints.
Joyce is pretty much me in this. I am a Christian (Presbyterian) but I’ve drifted away from even my organized religion despite them being somewhat better than most on gay issues. Bluntly, my relationship with God couldn’t stand dealing with all the darker elements institutions tended to bring. Ironically, I’d briefly considered converting to Catholicism before the whole scandal broke with them.
“I believe we should do the right thing, even when it’s hard”
parahprased.
I wonder ehat she’d say if she knew about the Westboro Baptist church. Maybe she’d actually curse.
Mike’s not in this class, is he? Because if he was, he’d have probably raised his hand and added info about WBC…
…which would probably have compelled Joyce to just grab the closest improvised weapon and storm off in the direction of Topeka.
Mike isn’t enrolled in this class, but he’s not above visiting just to spread misery.
… The chair works. So do pencils and paper.
The Westboro Church is universally used by Christians as an example of how NOT to behave. They’re universally hated by the religious and non-religious alike.
They’re as Christian as the KKK.
…said the guy defending the right to deny basic human needs to human beings due to their sexual orientation elsewhere on the page
…where? O.O Just did a Find on the page but can’t see it.
Wait, I think I found it; I think you mistook Rycan for Neonix. 😉
With their own money. If it goes against their religious convictions, that’s their right. Separation of church and state goes both ways, you know. That doesn’t mean that I think that they SHOULD do what they do, just that they have the right to. I think they would actually be serving their cause better by giving charity without strings attached.
If someone spends their money in a bigoted way, even if that’s their religious conviction, that doesn’t mean I can’t still call them fucking bigots and tell them they’re being fucking bigots for doing it and think maybe they should stop being fucking bigots.
And “their own money” is kind of the issue. They’re a religious organization, so it means they get to keep their money tax-free. That’s money that could have gone back to the part of society that is slightly more likely to spread that dough around to the needy in a more indiscriminate fashion, but no. “Their money.” Bah. And in a world where government programs are demonized and shut down in favor of dumping the burden of caring for people on solely faith-based organizations which purposefully leave people fall through the cracks because of bigotry, that just means the whole thing’s a broken-ass system, and maybe that should change.
the west boro baptist church is commonly sent poop via mail
Please remember that there are also churches that give aid to people with no regard to their sexual orientation or gender identity.
Fortunately, she’s non-denominational, so she should have an easy time joining those churches if she finds them.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen Joyce curse so much in a single page. And yes, make no mistake, she is cursing. She might not be saying the word ‘fuck’, but she’s thinking of it every time she makes a deliberate effort to use the words fudge or hanky-panky instead. In other words, Joyce just told organized christianity to go fuck itself (but not Christ himself, that’s an important distinction).
That’s the weird part. Is Joyce aware there’s no “Church”? There’s 600+ in the world and I’m betting a lot more.
I can understand that you can’t really organize 600+ churches as
one breadone body but there certainly is the concept of the Church as an institution of faith that you could curse at.Also, the Roman Catholic Church headed by the Pope.
I think “the church” can be read as a more abstract notion, like organized Christianity in general.
There is definitely a concept of the abstracted unified Church in the Bible, most notably in Revelation, where the Church is described as the Bride of Christ. Despite how Christianity is infinitely factured, that concept still exists. It’s specifically why it’s referred to as THE Church, rather than just church.
Point taken, Willis. It’s just ironic to me because I grew up in an area where the various denominations were bitterly opposed, often to the point where many were accused of not being Christian despite this being ridiculous.
In all my years of cursing – I was at sea for a bit – I’ve never hanky-panky’ed someone.
In a way, Joyce reminds me of Creighton on Red Dwarf. His circuits stopped him from swearing even though he wanted to. Very much.
Sme-EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
do twenty somethings in 2015, even from homeschoolery backgrounds, seriously not know this basic stuff about Christian charities? They are not aware of pray-the-gay-away phenomena?
I graduated two years ago from a small conservative instiution and the Joyce-esque people were all *aware* of this stuff, they either just didn’t like talking about it, or tried to justify it.
Like I get that Joyce is autobiographical, I wonder just if that autobiography still applies in 2015. Was my experience just unique?
I don’t think word has spread yet that the nominal leader of the “rehabilitation” movement has disavowed the process as hurtful and/or damaging. I work at a Southern Baptist ministry and still run into people who think that folks should just join a program, go to a camp, or pray it away. They also support refusing service to someone based on their orientation, etc. There is a serious cognitive dissonance in the church when it comes to homosexuality. Mostly out of fear, this particular issue has been given a significance/severity far beyond, say, adultery or gluttony. No logic in the world can sway folks about it. Like Joyce, it takes personal experience to let go of that particular prejudice. I wish every Christian I know would get confronted with this; it’s probably the most frustrating issue I see on a near-daily basis.
Joyce has actually attempted the pray the gay away with Ethan. I just don’t think she realized how harmful it was. She thought she was doing a good thing. Becky was the one who showed her that she was wrong.
In fairness to Joyce, it’s nowhere near an equal parallel. Ethan flat out asked her for exactly what she’s been trying to give him. She is not responsible for his bad choices, and it is neither her right nor responsibility to make his decisions for him, however long-term poor they may be. (I would argue that in the pure short-term, their relationship has been a good one for both of them. Joyce gets a sense of security while she heals from her trauma, Ethan gets to relax a bit and enjoy life since he’s not just ‘that gay guy’.)
Note that Becky, who does not want what Ethan currently wants, has received nothing but real support and friendship from Joyce.
Very well put. Joyce is following Ethan’s lead in their relationship.
“But Hanky Panky you, church!”
I have never seen a better argument for the fact that swear words, when used as expletives, no longer have the meaning they do when they’re not used as swear words. (And thus can’t be replaced with synonyms.)
I popped both of my monocles.
Damn you church for being the only ones to care enough to offer shelter in the first place! Seriously, am I the only to see this gaping hole in this logic? Should the church out conditions on who they offer charity to? Maybe, maybe not, but that’s their prerogative. If you’re offering free shelter, free food, free provisions, you have the right to set whatever conditions you want. If non-faith based charities want to rise up and take care of the LGBT community, then good on them, but they ain’t doing that, are they?
Having the right to do something and being morally in the right are two different things. Sure, charities can say they only serve redheads, if they want to. But it’s still cruel to turn away people in need because of sexual orientation, especially in conservative communities where religious charities may be the only place to turn. It isn’t right, by anyone’s religion, to deny a child shelter because they’re gay (and the majority of unaccompanied homeless youth *are* LGBT) but that’s what happens. The Salvation Army only changed it’s discrimination policy last year after several cases where gay or trans people were either denied help or kicked out of shelters (in one case, this led to the death of a trans woman who was refused shelter in winter and died of exposure).
There are many non-religious organizations trying to help the LGBT community and especially homeless LGBT youth, but as you can imagine it’s extremely difficult for these organizations to get funding, and nearly impossible for them to set up in the conservative communities where they’re most needed. Money doesn’t magically fall from the sky, and most people just don’t donate to LGBT organizations because it’s seen as a niche cause. There are lots of people working extremely hard to fix this problem, but that doesn’t help the LGBT people who need assistance now and can’t get to the nearest liberal metropolis to receive it. When religious charities deny the needy assistance, it’s just wrong.
The churches are not independent actors. They are getting a LOT of privileges because they are providing services to the society. It is not unreasonable to have opinions about how these services are performed.
Also, a lot of people argue against other agents in the “helping people” business, (for example the government), because the churches already are doing that job (never mind the people who the churches don’t want to help).
A church’s privileges comes from being a religious institution. Anything it does to serve the community is because of their own belief that it is their duty to do so.
It’s easy to complain about how other people spend their money, but how many would put their money where their mouth is? When a church near me built a giant cross near the freeway, they got complaints from all over saying it was a waste of money. But that church does more to serve their community and the world abroad than anyone else. We build wells in places where clean water is unavailable, build shelters for orphans in Africa, and just this week sent students out to nearby schools to provide free labor.
When people complain about the way churches spend their money, it makes me angry. Hypocrites, if you don’t like it go and do something yourselves.
So it’s OK for them to discriminate against LGBT people if the church board says so? Would that work for a restaurant as well? If not, what’s the difference?
Why does it being a religious belief give it more validity than if it was a personal belief? If you’re a jerk for reasons someone else came up with, rather than ones you did, would that make you less of a jerk? No, right?
Here’s the deal. If you want to discriminate against people, the government should not be giving you special treatment. Period.
If religious organizations were willing to give up their tax-exempt status and similar preferential treatments, I wouldn’t give a damn what they did. Well, I would, but in the same way I bongo about Microsoft making shitty products but know that it’s their choice to make them, and I choose not to use them or support them in any way.
Similarly when organizations like the Mormon church explicitly campaign against legislation, as in the Prop 8 debacle in California, I feel there needs to be a very strong backlash response to de-501(c)(3) them.
Okay, sure, they’re allowed to do that. I’m just wondering why you think that’s a perfectly valid and moral thing to do for a religion that preaches unending love and support.
if there was one thing jesus preached it’s that if you can technically get away with being a super asshole because of the letter of the law, then fuckin’ godspeed
… I don’t think Jesus ever f’d god. That would be… disturbing. Especially since he’s 1. his son, and 2. himself.
I DON’T WANNA THINK ABOUT THIS!!!! GAH! YOUR INTERNET! YOUR INTERNET IS BREAKING ME!!!
So if they refused to help people in need based on their skin colour, when if they had the “right” skin colour they would be helped, would that be entirely acceptable and within their rights to limit their help only to the people who needed it and who were, say, pale enough? Or would that be morally or ethically repugnant?
Well, yes, practically, it is their prerogative. But consider that the reason for giving shelter to someone else is the whole “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” idea. And giving shelter to some and deny it to others negates that idea imo.
Exactly. As a Christian who wants to do good in the world, this is precisely what I stand for. There is this whole do not be unequally yolked idea, but that has been way too widely applied and some even apply it to completely incongruous things. I have seen people basically say that about coal power, particularly to me. Whenever i bring up power generation at church, someone has to trow in that oil is being generated all the time. To which many politely smile and nod in a condecendin manner and to which i correct. But then there’s the thing, if i can correct them on how oil is formed, they argue that they can correct others on moral issues. the issue then becomes the idea that there is:
1 a way to correct someones sexual attraction (there is not)
2 a way to correct a deeply held belief by saying it is wrong (again not)
so instead i just go on dealing with stupid.
… Wow, my adhd sometimes huh?
“Homeless shelter — white people only”
Exactly.
Plus then the argument that non-whites don’t actually require shelters because there’s that shelter right there, see? So why duplicate effort? ><
Difference: There is no Biblical justification for treating people differently because of skin color. It would be a political agenda, not religious conviction, that would motivate excluding people who are not white. Homosexuality, on the other hand, is a hotly debated issue. Churches differ in how they interpret the Bible in its stance on homosexuality, or even in if they believe in the Bible at all.
You know, there are non-faith charities that are trying to do exactly that. However in many cases it’s difficult for them to find support, because people assume the faith-based charities have things covered. Together with the religious privileges already mentioned, that tends to crowd out the others..
It’s important to be like Stannis Baratheon, IMHO. You should give church-based charities credit for offering charity and goodwill far in excess of the average citizen. You should ALSO call them to task for their bad qualities. One doesn’t erase the other. Both have to be dealt with individually.
That’s their fault for assuming, then. You can be one of four things:
1. Someone who is unaware of a need.
2. Someone who is aware of the need and complains that other people aren’t doing anything about it.
3. Someone who sees something that isn’t being done and takes action.
4. And finally, there’s the penniless college student who can’t be bothered to think about what other people need. There are papers to be written! Oh, $#!+, is that due tomorrow!?
Joyce making strides reminds me why i will always love this character. I relate the most with her, Ethan and now Becky. You create such amazing characters Willis
So, Joyce, how has your day been?
I object, some of that is night! Define what you mean by “day”!
Wow, that one with Joyce biting her lip and Mike visible close behind her looks really… different out of context.
Now that you point it out…
Leslie is really a nice, smart woman, but seems like a weird teacher. Her students interrupt her class and she says nothing. Also, a bit too much personal information than is really appropriate or necessary. Probably don’t want your students thinking about you having sex.
If a professor told you they were married, would you immediately imadine them and their spouse going at it?
And lots of college-level classes encourage class participation. (Hell, some professors complain aboit how hard it is to drag comment out of their students.) Leslie’s class isn’t a lecture hall.
As a twenty-something teaching in a university right now, I can tell you many of my more experienced colleagues (old and young!) teach the way Leslie teaches. There’s a big push for more student-centered discourse in the university, and there’s also major resistance against the teacher-as-giver-of-knowledge model (the idea being that knowledge is mutually and socially constructed, and therefore students are a vital part of their own learning and knowledge attainment).
On a related note, there are also big pushes for the use of teacher identities as sources of disruption and of “teaching moments” in the classroom. That is, a teacher might disclose some aspect of their identity in order to illustrate a new perspective on class material or to disrupt student beliefs about what people of that identity experience/whether they belong in the university. It’s pretty theory-heavy stuff!
What bugs me, though, is your idea that Leslie being a lesbian and disclosing that she’s a lesbian somehow “sexually charges” the classroom environment. That’s… just not ok. I encourage you to consider why the assumption of straightness or a straight teacher disclosing their marital status isn’t considered sexual.
I salute you and all who sail on you, because Exactly Everything You Said, Yes.
Seconded!
I mean, yeah, it’s entirely innocuous to admit to be of any particular orientation and that needs to be pointed out, but also this is a gender and sexuality course. At the post-secondary level, targeted at adult students. Mature subject matter is gonna be covered.
Literally she segued into her experiences coming out as a Lesbian because the class was discussing the difficulties that LGBT individuals face when they come out as Lesbians, Gay Men, Bisexuals, and Transgender Individuals. That’s just a weird line in the sand draw there.
I’ve had very few professors that did not have at least 75% class discussion, especially in philosophy and related classes. The ones that didn’t were math and sciences.
Leslie has a lesson plan? I was thinking she just asked people if they had questions pertaining to gender studies and discussed them, more of a Socratic method of teaching than a textbook course.
Of course, I guess Joe wouldn’t have known what they were talking about… Unless Joe was eavesdropping. Wouldn’t put it past him.
I’m sure she’d still need a lesson plan, even if it’s loosely structured. Know what topics she needs to cover and what facts she needs to divulge throughout a given lecture.
Just on an institutional level I don’t think she’d be allowed to teach the class some random smattering of information and send the students on their way.
Now would be a perfect time for The Cheese to bust through the wall, Kool-Aid man style.
She learns. Good for her.
oh Joyce you precious potato.
I look at Joyce’s angry lip-shaping in out-of-panel panel 3 and I can’t help seeing fangs.
Is this how you reacted when you found out these facts Willis?
Hanky panky you right up the bottom.
Something tells me that she’s going to apply some of these lessons to her sister. I can’t wait to see Jocelyne come back.
Honestly, if THAT doesn’t get her swearing, then I don’t know what the fuck will…
Seeing Ryan again.
Last Panel: I think Joes looking at her with Admiration.
I think we can start re-shipping this couple