Roz, Joe thanks you for eclipsing any chance he might have had of looking like the biggest jerk in this scene. For all his insensitivity, he just wants to pull his head into his turtle shell when compassion and feelings are called for, not actually try to start shit.
I have a feeling Roz is about to find out what matters more to Leslie– a chance at a date with Robin DeSanto or the relative emotional safety of her classroom– and be quite unprepared for the answer.
If a student is being disruptive she is totally within her rights to call her on it, kick her out of class for that day, etc. She obviously can’t haul off and wack her, but I don’t think any of us really want that.
I agree philosophically with Roz, but her “more sex-positive-than-thou” act is every bit as narrow-minded and judgmental as Joyce’s church.
Ugh, yes. The only thing more annoying than closed-minded bigots is faux-open-minded bigots who lord their open-mindedness over those who are less so and attack them when they show even the slightest sign of growth. “Oh, you realize you were wrong? GOOD ALLOW ME TO INSULT YOU AND EVERYTHING YOU STOOD FOR EVEN THOUGH YOU CLEARLY ARE RETHINKING IT”
Yup. Hit them with that guilt too hard and they might just back away from that growth and desperately start burying themselves back in their ignorance so they don’t have to face it.
Not to mention, Roz is wrong. Joyce was (and is) a member of a church that doesn’t tolerate queerness, but she personally hasn’t done anything (that we’re aware of) to actively get LGBQT* kids disowned. The only thing she is guilty of is blindly following the path her parents and church set out for her.
Now Mary I’m willing to bet would and has taken an active role in attacking queer kids; but Joyce? Had all sorts of assumptions that she started dropping pretty much immediately after seeing them diametrically opposed to reality (for example, in the comic where Ethan came out as gay to her, and she replied “You seem normal.”).
So not really true, and really, really not fair of Roz.
I can’t wait until tomorrow. It’s like watching Russian traffic accidents on YouTube. Suddenly, there will be a car upside down in a ditch, but you aren’t quite sure which one it will be or how it will get there…
This is a good point. To make a point about the flip side of this: I’m from California, and I’ve had gay friends probably all my life and definitely from my teens on up. I never felt the need to actively be an ally in even a small way until I went to grad school in Texas, because I just assumed that the bigots and idiots were in the minority.
Not to mention Joyce was never taught about any of these subjects until she came to the college. It’s not that she was passively supporting them, it’s that she was more…sheltered from how bad things could really be and actively closed them out of her vision.
She’s finally coming to her senses and Roz basically threw her open eyes into the dirt to make herself feel good about giving what she thinks is “righteous truth” to someone who was already realizing how much injustice was abound. Joyce wasn’t a monster who came around, she was an innocent who didn’t know better and is making strides towards improving. How she is helping and accepting Becky, as a lesbian, and stopped referring to her queer nature as a ‘mistake’ shows that.
Granted, we’re the audience, and know everything about said improvement, but Roz is being awful here.
Roz’s anger is justified but it is neither the time nor the place to bring this up, and as you said, there is a chance that this could stunt or stop any personal growth here. You shouldn’t attack people for becoming better people unless you want to try to make them stay bad people. The best way to fight hate is with love, not more hate.
um, “The only thing more annoying than closed-minded bigots is faux-open-minded bigots who lord their open-mindedness”… no? Being self-righteous in a mean way is not OK, granted, but needing time to forgive, or just snapping at people whatever the reason cannot be compared to shaming people for their sexuality. Which by the way is what Joyce herself did to Roz on one of their first encounters
Close-mindedness can happen to people irrespective of their ideology. When a particular set of values is viewed as open-minded you get the situation where dogmatic people are called open-minded. The hypocrisy of dogmatic “open-mindedness” is more annoying to contend with, but as of yet as done less harm.
Ugh, exactly. Every time Roz shows up she gets a ridiculous amount of hate and presumption. I’m not saying some of it isn’t deserved – she’s definitely out of line but damn it, she’s got a point and she’s not wrong for being frustrated with Joyce. OR for Dorothy for enabling her for that matter.
Keep in mind, Roz back in the Shortpacked-verse was so “open-minded” about sex-positivity that when a man turned her down for casual sex for a reason she didn’t like she basically stalked him until he gave in, wrecking his life in the process, and was never ever called on that.
So while this version of Roz may not have done anything like that, it’s in no way out of character and she still gets the hate her prior incarnation earned.
I’m not sure the Roz who gives cards to people she actively dislikes for help if she thinks they need it deserves to be lumped in the same boat as her SP! Counterpart.
I think the problem here is Joyce’s phrasing in yesterday’s page. “I am so angry at the church!” in no way admits any personal responsibility for the things Joyce herself has said and done to sex-positive and/or queer people in the past few weeks. It sounds like “the church has hurt these people but I’m still innocent!” I think THAT is what’s bringing Roz to pinpoint “that church was YOU!” today.
And look at Joyce’s reaction. She knows Roz isn’t wrong.
But isn’t she wrong, I mean, Joyce just never knew
about any of this. Roz is sorta just kicking a
puppy, Joyce IS starting to learn. Being mean, while
justified, isn’t okay
It’s true that Joyce is using weasel words to distance herself from guilt, but it’s unreasonable and unrealistic to expect her to climb up on a cross and beg the class for forgiveness. And, although Roz doesn’t actually know this, Joyce is actually housing a newly homeless gay youth in her dorm room, AND doing her best to protect her.
Ultimately Roz’s only real goal is gatekeeping: she cares about it more, she cares about it first, she cares about it without having it directly affect someone around her.
She isn’t in a position to do that, but she’s obediently supporting the people who do. And in the meantime she’s hating homosexuality, telling her gay boyfriend to resist temptation and thinks it’s appropriate to convert jewish people to christianity.
Your response is a case in point.
You are no more open-minded nor close-minded than the man you responded to. The OP was commenting that both Roz AND the church were in the wrong (not even going so far as to say all churches, just Joyce’s particular congregation), and both were being close minded. The fact that you immediately jumped to the defense of all churches with a none-to-surprising “holier than thou” spouting of anger means you just need to open your mind to more sides of the argument. The best way to understand your own viewpoint and defend it is to learn and understand what the other side is saying, not casting them down with rage and hellfire. If you can intelligently bring up their own points and debunk them, you’re on the fast track to being better able to defend your own perspective.
Please, think on it, and don’t let anger or passion guide all of your actions.
No, I gotta go with Roz on this one. It’s true, Joyce completely and utterly didn’t give a damn about how her entire belief system, how her entire structure of living, was hurting people, until it personally affected her. She can learn from that, but the truth is that it shouldn’t have taken her friend being hurt by evil for her to have spoken out against it. Roz is right – Joyce doesn’t get to be the hero today. And if Joyce wasn’t personally affected by it, she would STILL be part of a group which systematically oppresses people. Roz is being disruptive, sure, and can get kicked out of class. But she’s not wrong.
As much as I loathe Joe, I will admit if anyone could tell a woman was faking enjoying sex it would be him.
I’ve heard it’s possible for the ladies to expertly fake themselves getting to Happyville, but as far as the overall time together that would seem to me to be much harder to fake, esp with someone like Joe who’s well-versed in the ins-and-outs of the situation.
Robin asked her that and she specifically said no.
Didn’t specifically rule out bi or anything else, but certainly implied it wasn’t the case. (Attributed her “start kissing girls onstage” threat to Robin to just getting out of things, not attraction.)
This sets Roz apart from someone like Joe. As a character, Joe is extremely flat and nobody IRL is extremely flat. It makes you realize that something is going on inside is head that we don’t know. To be honest, I kinda agree with Roz but I would never say that out loud to someone like Joyce cause 1. I’m not a dickwad and 2. That’s the kind of thing you have to realize yourself like Joyce just did.
Joe is very similar to Walky in that he intentionally acts immature and superficial in attempt to “simplify” his life. They both have moments that show a lot of emotional depth and awareness. But otherwise the two of them put a lot of effort into avoiding sentimentality, in no small part due to their very traditional views on masculinity.
Oh, and I definitely agree that Roz does have a valid point underneath all of her hostility. But she’s putting it in the least helpful way possible and is an enormous jerkwad for acting like the gatekeeper to LGBT support.
I’m getting the impression what’s gotten Roz so upset (assuming it is indeed entirely about what’s happening here, and has nothing to do with what her time-bomb of a roommate is up to lately) is it looks like, to her, that Joyce is getting the spotlight (“I’m supposed to treat Miss Fundy like a goddamn hero?!”) that should belong to someone who actually deserves it. The disgust for Joyce’s disassociation with her upbringing’s collective sins seems to serve to cover up her less idealogical reasons…Ones that are very much beside the point for such serious issues… For this to upset her so much…
At what point do compassion and feelings have to give way to cold hard truth, though?
Roz is right; until someone close to Joyce turned out to be one of the “other”, the nicest thing she would do for them is try to convert them. I’m tired of politicians and clergy and other religious people suddenly turn from a lifetime of discrimination just because one of their kids turns out to be gay. Hey, I was someone’s kid too, but you didn’t give a shit about me until it turned out you had a personal stake in it.
As much as I want to believe that people can change, and as much as I want to open my arms to the people who do, I’ve wanted to say what Roz has said in this strip many times, and I can’t help but get some satisfaction from seeing it.
“You changed your mind for the wrong reason!” seems like a really stupid thing to be mad at someone for. Everyone has their own reasons for realizing things. Are we really gonna sit here and rank these reasons as if you have the right to judge?
It is a stupid thing to be mad about, I know, and in the end, I’ll take as many allies as are willing, but I’m just not as quick to forgive as I should be, because it’s not easy to forgive it.
I don’t think it’s about changing her mind for the wrong reasons as it is about being a hypocrite. As I recall Joyce judged Roz in the past for the sex thing and she’s going to keep being judgmental until more people close to her cause her to change her mind overtime.
To be honest I sometimes feel that it takes a person turning into a hypocrite and confronting that hypocrisy before they develop as a person. Some of our decisions while growing tend to be rife with hypocrisy.
I feel it’s not about either. If you don’t examine your beliefs except when something occurs that happens to your friends, then you won’t examine nearly all of your beliefs.
Joyce has been fighting the moral requirement to question for some time. In fact, that struggle is arguably the ongoing theme of the comic as a whole.
It seems like Heinous Acts wasn’t mad that politicians changed stance for the wrong reason, but that these politicians kept their old, personally harmful stance for decades, during which they perpetuated homophobia and enacted really hurtful laws. It would’ve been nice if they’d skipped all those decades in the middle and properly treated everyone like family from the get-go.
Since we don’t have a time machine, I’m happy to celebrate the late-bloomers, too. But Roz has a point — maybe not to Joyce, who is trying hard and learning, but to the powerful adults in Joyce’s life who really ought to know better.
Not so much, “you changed your mind for the wrong reason”, as “you are a selfish person who cannot be depended on to do the right thing unless it suits you personally”.
Pretty much my thoughts. The way Roz went about saying this was aggressive but she has a point and she’s not required to be nice to Joyce while calling her out on her hypocrisy. But because she went about it like she did in a classroom where order and a certain level of respect need to be maintained for the sake of the learning environment Leslie was justified in removing her.
Noo, not at all. More like “You had no idea how this actually worked until it happened to someone close to you who confided in you”. Joyce isn’t selfish, there wasn’t anything selfish in her behaviour to date. She just didn’t understand, in this particular case, that she was harming people instead of helping them.
The problem with Roz’s outburst is that it doesn’t do any good at all. Joyce just learned something important, she is now capable of compassion where she didn’t previously have it, she is saying, out loud, that she is ANGRY at her church because of how it treats people, where previously she was certain the church was correct. Not the mark of a selfish person.
And what purpose is there to Roz shitting on that? Except to make her feel morally superior to Joyce, I guess. Bleh.
More like “You didn’t think about this till it affected someone you know personally”. Not thinking about your morals till you put them into practice is exactly why Joyce is having to readjust her morals right now.
Expecting people to have a fully functioning, real world tested sense of morality before they’ve even moved out from their parent’s roof for the first time is frankly ludicrous. We might as well criticize high schoolers for their lack of real world job experience.
I think people aren’t so upset at the message but how it was used. Roz is right but she’s kind of using the truth as a weapon to hurt Joyce. Even after Leslie’s warning. I don’t know who pissed in her Coco Puffs but being mean isn’t cool. But I guess it had to be said.
“I will make that hypocrisy hurt.” Frank Underwood/Roz
eh, based on what i could tell, Robin was the democratic equivalent of Sarah Palin politically. Both had/have no idea what they’re doing yet still gained popularity and political power
I can absolutely see Mary and Roz feeding off of each other, forming this wormhole of partisan hatred. They’re essentially the same person, deep down inside, but they have wildly different political views. The problem, of course, is that this person they both are is a selfish, heartless, hateful bongo.
When they see each other, they see horrible people, and then they use that as a generalization for each other’s entire affiliation, worsening the hatred they already have
Yes. However, comparing “uses the truth as a weapon” should still not be compared to “participates in ad perpetuates a culture of hate, shame and oppression”… the two are just not at the same level of evil
There’s a difference between being evil (see cartoon villains, Galasso) and just being a jerk for no reason. Mike, on the other hand, avoids both categories by being a jerk for a reason.
No, they shouldn’t be compared, but what Roz is doing is something that could very well come across as “You weren’t accepting in the past, so I won’t let you be accepting now!” I’d rather expect that most people who were doubtful about being accepting of LGBT people in the past would be more inclined to drop all support they were about to give in the face of a statement like that.
Source: I used to not be accepting, am now, and had similar experiences. It took a lot of work to push through and continue to be accepting. That was years ago, but even now I still feel twinges of “Am I actually accepting enough?”
When someone who’s been insensitive finally starts getting a clue, it is really, really dumb to belabor the point anywhere near that harshly. Or at all, really.
This isn’t about forgiving Joyce for her ignorance. It’s about helping her overcome it.
Joyce could grow into a powerful bridge to the fundies back home. I understand. Roz’s frustration in the moment, but hopefully Roz will realize that this alienation is a dumb move for Roz’s bigger cause.
Oh, she will get serious blowback for trying that, which is why she needs all the support she can get. Not because she necessarily deserves it, but because it’s of strategic interest.
Yeah… I agree what Roz is doing is definitely the smartest thing to do, but I really understand where she’s coming from. Even though she’s not a lesbian or a trans girl, she has still been shamed for her sexuality, and by Joyce herself nonetheless, and she seems keenly aware of patriarcal oppression in general. It’s a good thing Leslie is here to moderate her and protect Joyce, but I can’t bring myself to blame an angry teenager for telling the truth to a clueless one, even if it is in this abrasive way.
You’re not wrong, but that minority can’t be ignored. I don’t think that you are saying they should be, but I personally feel that comments saying, “we’re not all like that!” distract from the issue. I’m sure you didn’t mean it to do that, but such comments come across to me as needlessly defensive.
It’s not a “we’re not all like that” comment, but it is defensive.
In this case, defending Joyce. Her alignment with religion does not automatically put her in the same catagory as those who kick gay kids out of the house.
Saying “Roz is right, but…” is doing more damage than good, because Roz ISN’T right. If you want to actually focus on the issue, focus on THE ISSUE, and don’t alienate people who would be your allies by putting them into the same catagory as your enemies.
But her Church is, and up until the latest turn of events, Joyce’s primary mode of operation has been blind obedience. And that’s a very harmful choice, and is really what Roz is angry about.
Let me put it this way–you think this is the first time some kid in Joyce’s church suddenly stopped attending and no one really talked about why, because it was too uncomfortable to explain that the kid was now living in a refrigerator carton in Indianapolis?
I wouldn’t even say it’s the wrong reason. But, yeah, you were someone’s kid, too. Before politician X had a child who was homosexual, other people had stories to share that they would have been glad to share with politician X. There were lobbyists just for that effort, don’t you know.
The opportunities to get the same education on this topic, that politician X didn’t get until politician X’s own child became that education, existed and, in fact, were eager to avail themselves of politician X. Politician X wouldn’t have had to make much of an effort. In fact, Politician X would only have had to stop the effort to refuse such an education.
So, it’s not a bad reason… it’s just a late reason, a very late reason. Better than never, but still very late.
Problem is, we are quite good at filtering out information that runs contrary to our views. Very hard to filter out your own son or daughter, though – although some still manage.
On the last point, I agree completely. It’s just that I take a pragmatic view towards changing minds – we need to use tactics that work when the end result is so important to achieve (in my mind).
To be fair to Joyce though she’s hardly a politician or a clergy member. She’s an 18 year old kid raised by a pair of nutjobs IMO. I understand why Roz is hurt; I never came out to my father for fear of being tossed out. But turning on the more or less powerless Joyce is kicking a puppy for the actions of a dog, so to speak.
This can be boiled down to human nature. We are very resistant to ideas that run counter to our beliefs. We will automatically search for evidence that supports our beliefs, and automatically scrutinize evidence that runs counter to our beliefs. This is known as confirmation bias.
Yes, confirmation bias can be overcome, but not easily.
not really, her outburst seems more emotional than satisfied: she’s angry at Joyce for holding such hurtful beliefs. But remember how she reacted when she got the impression Joyce had went through something terrible at the party? She immediately gave her contacts to seek help, while not asking any inconsiderate questions – a smart and compassionate thing to do.
Indeed, she’s not wrong, but her condescension is still, well, condescension.
In this situation, how is she any better than the faith-based support group for the homeless who turn away LGBT youths? Here we have Joyce coming to terms with how a lot of people who share her religion end up using it to treat people terribly, and instead of being supportive, she shuns Joyce away with a “you should’ve had your epithany sooner!”.
I’m not a fan of Roz here either, but I’m not sure “she’s just as bad as people who leave kids on the street for having a non-normative sexuality or gender!” is the best argument…?
No, she’s not on board with it. To Joyce, God is a loving entity. She’s been hit headfirst with the growing divide between what she has been taught is right and wrong, and what she personally believes.
Roz is being harsh, yes. I have the sinking feeling that she is not being nearly as harsh as what Joyce is hearing in her own head right now– or what David Willis heard in his, when he went through this crisis.
There’s a part of me that wonders if it’s less a personal interest that makes Joyce take this stance so much as a realization that faith-based charities don’t take a ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ approach to things (which has always been more Joyce’s style).
I think what’s been going on has been a part of Joyce’s gradual understanding that “love the sinner, hate the sin” (or “hate the sin, not the sinner” which is how I recall that usually being phrased) still involves hate, which is why it’s not really a good option for anyone who would call themselves a God-loving Christian.
Right now I think she’s focusing on Becky. Give her some time, and she may realize that “hate the sin, not the sinner” is nothing but a smokescreen to allow the “righteous” to feel good about hating people who aren’t like them.
I see Roz’s point quite clearly, though she is being cruel to make it here and now. Truth is, the hard-hitting, god-hates-fags homophobes are getting rarer and more fringe. But there are a lot of people like Joyce out there who think homosexuality is a sin and gay people can be “fixed”. Let’s not forget that she is still in a relationship with a gay man she entered with the intent to do just that. People like Joyce aren’t out there committing hate crimes, but they do cause harm. She needs to realize this, and Roz may be ripping off the band-aid by doing it this way. Of course, that might backfire spectacularly.
Let’s not forget the gay boyfriend she’s trying to “fix” implied to her that he WANTS to be “fixed.” He’s as much a party to their relationship as Joyce is.
Although to be fair, it was a bit stronger than implying. It may never have been said strait out (PUN RECOGNITION FORBIDDEN), he got pretty close to saying “Joyce, I don’t want to be like this. Please fix me.”
Verb-tense difference there, that active discrimination is in the present for the “faith-based” organizations, but was only tangential for Joyce and us now in the past. Roz is not wrong for expressing what many are thinking, just expressing it in the wrong way.
Nuh-huh. Joyce was clearly on board with the “hate the sin, love the sinner train”… which is a terrible, hurtful train, even if if DOES allow you to give shelter to homeless teens of all orientations. Roz is too angry to be nice or even considerate here, but she is a 100% right
Roz’s reaction is… pretty much mine. I’m having a hard time sympathizing with Joyce given Ethan. >.> And I get that she’s learning and I appreciate that. I just don’t have the time or energy to deal with “hate the sin, love the sinner” because @&#% that nosie.
Joyce isn’t the only guilty party where Ethan is concerned. Remember that Ethan desperately wants to receive what Joyce wants to give. She’s providing a comfortable lie that he craves.
The thing is, Joyce hasn’t changed. She still feels the exact same way about every other issue she has been taught about, and if Becky suddenly stopped being gay, she would suddenly stop caring about that issue too.
This is purely a selfish lie that Joyce is telling herself, and therefore merits being called out.
Note: Joyce is still against pre-marital hanky panky. Apparently, she hasn’t realized that means that she is still against the active homosexual lifestyle.
I have a feeling that now the dam has burst, she’s not going to stop caring about homosexuality. Yes, she still has a long way to go for her other view points, but now that Leslie has pointed out the trouble the LGBT+ community has at the hands of the Church, and it has had it’s effect, I don’t think she’ll drop it any time soon, regardless of what happens next.
Didn’t you know? You’re not REALLY gay unless you’ve boned someone of the same sex. Your thoughts, feelings and emotional attachments to others don’t matter – it’s all about the BUTTSECKS. (Or pussysecks without dicks involved. Whichever. :p)
Thing is, acting like Roz is here Does Not Help Anything. What you get here is not people realizing “oh I was being stupid and should stop being stupid”, you get people coming to the realization that someone who calls you stupid is mean, and you should ignore them no matter how right anything they say might be.
Joyce isn’t stupid, she’s ignorant–a mushroom: she’s been kept in the dark and fed shit. When her environment changed she learned. But no props for ignorant kids who learn!! Chastise them for their former ignorance!! I hope you aren’t a professional teacher.
as a fomer kid who was kept in the dark but had a sharp eye i am in the perfect place to chastise her but people would deny me my right for thier own satisfaction
I didn’t realize that anti-gay organizations are acting out of hurt or rage at having been deeply wronged by gays. I mean ACTUALLY wronged not “your very existence offends me”. Given who Roz is, it’s very likely she personally knows people who have been hurt by people like Joyce, if she hasn’t herself.
What the actual shit is wrong with you. Why would you think ‘person who is tactless to someone having a personal epiphany literally decades behind the rest of society, which is also pretty shit by the way’ is on the same level with ‘literally tearing families apart and costing lives.’
Roz, while being harsh and its inappropriate to do this in a college classroom, is in the right. However, roz isn’t tossing Joyce out into the street! She’s saying “YOU were involved and had an ACTIVE voice in the very things you are now denouncing, you can’t separate yourself so easily”. That doesn’t make her some horrible person. It’s harsh, but its true.
Throwing that back in Joyce’s face solves nothing, though. She’s lucky that Joyce has Becky to fall back on: absent a real person with real suffering to pin this on, in the face of this kind of fairly direct attack most people I know would fall back and double down on their original position. It’s scary and uncomfortable feeling wrong and the easiest way to ease that discomfit is to revert to whichever position is most obviously “right”. And who would seem more right, with no Becky around? Her friends, her family, her pastor, her “ex-gay” boyfriend, or the rude person tearing her down in the middle of what was supposed to be a safe space?
While she’s not wrong it was also something that didn’t need to be said, Joyce had a just demonstrated that she understood, she realised what was important and what was horribly wrong. This was Roz kicking her while she was down for no reason other than to fee her own sense of arrogance. After all, if Roz cared so much why didn’t she make these exact points to Joyce weeks ago?
But we’re ALL assholes, to some extent. Joyce comes from a more conservative background; that she is learning is all one can ask for. She’s not a monster, either. She’s a good person, ultimately.
Some of the awesomest trans* activists I know grew up self-loathing (At least one of them has a story about arguing against marriage). Some of us managed to dodge that bullet, but that was LUCK, not righteousness.
Also, the purpose of a call-out is to end the behavior that hurts others. Roz basically just calls someone out AFTER she realized the behaviour was harmful. Not terribly productive! Also, yelling at Dorothy is bullshit.
That said, I kind of empathize with Roz here. Joyce WAS the church up until yesterday, and of course she doesn’t realize that yet. Of course, she will, with due time. But she doesn’t yet.
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The thing about Dorothy is, Roz isn’t wrong. Dorothy HAS been enabling Joyce this whole time, and coddling Joyce *isn’t* helping her.
Joyce *doesn’t* deserve a standing slow clap for finally figuring out she’s been passively part of the problem. She needs to have that point driven into her thick ass skull while there’s a crack formed in her “Jesus loves me this I know” armor plating. Before she seals it back up and the truth just clangs off it again.
Was she more hostile then she should have been? Sure. But Joyce has been “La la la”ing so hard I can’t imagine anyone who hasn’t been part of her inner circle is willing to put up with her.
She’s probably just a less vicious Mary to everyone not a main character.
But no one is giving Joyce a standing ovation; no one is calling Joyce a hero. Roz is really just saying “oh, Joyce, you realize how much your brand of Christianity has harmed others? Instead of moving forward and doing good with that realization, or instead of being encouraged to make more realizations like that, how about you stew in all the negative things that you really had not choice in the matter of believing in, because you were literally never exposed to anything else.”
I was raised in really anti-gay places, and my dad was really anti-anything except straight and cis. But my turning point? It was during the whole Arther/ Buster Bunny show, where the guest star was a girl with two moms. And there was a whole huge “controversy” about them being on a kids show, and one of the moms on the new was like “I feel like they are saying I’m somehow inhuman” and my dad said a sarcastic “*somehow* inhuman?” And I was like, “You know what? She looks pretty human to me!” And then I got the sh*t beat out of me. But up until then, I had been told that gay people *were* wrong, and *were* less than human, and I literally had no gay people to compare this to and see if it was false. I had parents who I was supposed to be able to trust tell me this stuff. And my punishment for disagree was physical, compared to Joyce’s emotional, but punishment in the form of emotional estrangement from God is a very real thing for her. If you’re going to be an activist, you have to understand that people on “the other side” aren’t always evil and hellbent on “my way or the highway”; they literally think that being gay somehow brings the devil into our homes. They have been taught and conditioned this and in some cases had it beaten in to us, be it physically or emotionally. And a lot of people don’t get an “Aha” moment like I did. Joyce just had her aha moment, and slammed her down. Joyce is a strong character, but I have seen slammings like lead to suicide. Mental dissonance is not an easy thing to deal with, and Dorothy is doing good by being “an atheist, not an asshole,” as she put it, which, to Joyce, was something impossible up until a month ago in comic time. Roz is being the “evil scary liberal” that Joyce has been conditioned to fear.
I’m sure if Roz hadn’t piped up, someone would have started a slow clap. at least in here by now.
Roz is being a jerk yes. But Roz is also PISSED.
Maybe if Joyce hadn’t been.. you know.. trying to panky away the gay on Ethan, I’d be less on Roz’s side here. I’d be more “Damn, Joyce didn’t deserve to be hit over the head with that so hard Roz.”
But.. you know, she did do the thing. As hurtful as it is to hear.
There are times you can coddle people, and there are times when it’s useless to coddle them anymore, and force them to put on their big girl pants and wake the hell up to how they have been acting.
Because if you NEVER challenge them, if you’re supportive and nice and head patting and there-there’ing them *all* the time? There is a bigger chance that they never leave the basement of their belief structure, and just make excuses while never putting the work in to grow into a better person.
In this case, yeah, absolutely. Roz’s technique results in an embarrassed and scared Joyce who won’t readily risk opening up her mind to new ideas. For somebody interested in winning hearts and minds, Roz’s approach is pretty aggressive, abrasive, and unpleasant.
Why doesn’t it matter? It completely matters. Joyce seriously needs to realize this and face it. She is still dating a gay guy with the sole purpose of changing his sexuality! If her best friend hadn’t come out to her, I bet her response to this reveal would have been “The church wants to rehabilitate those poor, misguided people? That’s so wonderful! I’m so glad those kids are getting the help they need!”. 24 hours ago she literally was the very church she is now decrying.
It’s going to hurt like hell, but she NEEDS to face this. Maybe this isn’t the right time, but Roz is doing the same thing Joyce just did- making an emotional outburst about something that clearly upset her. I’m actually quite annoyed that Joyce was allowed to disrupt the class like that, but Roz is being removed. Joyce just attacked an entire, major religion that other people in the class belong to. If she hadn’t been Christian, would she have been allowed to say that?
Why IS Joyce lauded for attacking people and disrupting the class, while Roz is in the wrong for it?
The difference in the situations is that Joyce is angry with “The Church” / specific Institutions that she is reacting to the information she’s just been given; she’s angry but not attacking anyone. Roz though is talking explicitly about Joyce and is attacking her earlier “lack of anger”.
Leslie said they are to talk about the material and not each other. Roz is only talking about Joyce and refuses to stop that’s why she is told to leave.
Oh, as much empathy as I and some others here have for Roz’s position, I agree that Leslie not only has the right to have her leave, she has the responsibility. Just because Joyce may have needed to hear this in some form, doesn’t mean she needed to hear it right now, in this setting.
Roz is rightfully pointing out that Joyce is divesting herself of responsibility. Joyce is saying the church shouldn’t, but ignoring the fact that she was part of that church and supported that church right up until it clashed with her life experience. Joyce is re-writing her personal history, failing to admit to her part in past social pressures and bigotry. She is a hypocrite.
In this instance, Joyce is the material. She is part of the problem.
In this specific instance Joyce is not the material as they were being taught about how some organizations threat LGBT+ youths. Joyce is not an organization or running one. Leslie also explicitly states that the students are not part of the material, at that point both Dorothy and Roz should not have continued talking about Joyce during the class.
The only thing I will say about who is right and wrong in this situation is this: Dorothy and Roz are wrong for continuing to talk about Joyce after Leslie explicitly says “We talk about the material not each other”.
Joyce expressed anger towards an institution, and was responded to with an attack on herself. allowing a classroom where a student is allowed to personally attack another student is pretty much the worst way to run a class, and Leslie is a better teacher then that.
No, she wasn’t. Bear in mind that while she is dating Ethan specifically to change him, this is change that he visibly seeks and help he encourages. Ethan doesn’t want to be gay and in doing so reinforces her naive belief that she’s helping him.
Joyce was “part of the church” until literally ANY alternative was offered to her.
I think it did need to be said. Even though she accepted Becky and she’s majorly conflicted about what she’s doing to Ethan, she has yet to recognize her complicity in the oppression she’s railing against. Joyce has actively participated in the oppression of queer people, and even if her attitudes and reactions are a byproduct of the belief system in which she was raised, until she recognizes that she is wrong, she won’t change. Not really.
But now there’s more to Ethan and Joyce than just the anti-gay thing. Ethan and Joyce have a sort of deal Joyce would have to break, which both Joyce and Ethan are worried about hurting him. So instead of giving Joyce a way out, Ethan currently has Joyce stuck trying to go both ways at once.
I don’t even think Roz is an asshole. I have been calling church-girl despicable since she started helping Ethan stay in the closet. Little Miss Judgmental deserves a public reaming for her behavior.
“church-girl” has known literally nothing else for her entire life. it has been less than a month for her exposure to a larger world. shafting her for the opinions forced on her in childhood that she is finally realizing were wrong, at this point in time, is going to do more harm than good.
Roz is being a dick. You can be right and still be a dick. Don’t be a dick.
Shrug, you can still like the comic while not caring much about Joyce’s ongoing deprogramming.
Other stuff I like:
Amazigirl
Walky and Sal’s friendship
Walky and Joyce bickering
Mike being Mike
Joe’s usually pretty amusing
Ruth and Billie in any context other than psychosexual suicide pact mode
It’s a pretty large strip, with a bunch of stuff going on, and Willis is pretty good about bouncing around the focus. I can roll my eyes at Joyce saying “hanky panky you, church!” while still enjoying the rest.
Yup, because when someone believes things that you feel are harmful, the lesson you want them to learn is that there is no point in ever changing those beliefs. Because you will never forgive them for what they used to believe. Because if they try and change their ways, try and stop being harmful and start being helpful they will gain no friends from it. All they’ll do is wind up hated by both sides of the issue where before they at least had a community they could belong to.
Really, is the lesson that when you find you’ve been believing something shitty that the best decision is to double down and keep holding to those beliefs because there can be no redemption the one you want people to learn?
Yeah. I understand Roz’s frustration, but she’s jumping down Joyce’s throat just as Joyce is finally getting it, and that’s a really stupid move for Roz’s bigger purpose. Winning human rights needs to be way more important than being the most righteous person in the room at a given moment, you know?
You’re right, Roz is putting her personal hurt feelings before Joyce’s growth. It’s not the smartest thing to do, but I get why a teenager might have a hard time keeping her temper under check when confronted whith unwittingly harmful ignorance such as Joyce. Thankfully, Leslie is here to bring balance and provide a safe learning environment, yay for Leslie! The world needs an almighty Leslie
I take it a different way, in that Roz is hammering in the “This is YOU.. not *just* the church. *YOU* were part of this, and you need to understand and own it and not just throw the blame at someone else to make yourself feel better.”
Joyce is learning.. but she’s STILL got her head up her ass and can’t see her own bullshit. And Roz is rightly sick and tired of people enabling people like joyce.
yeah. And obviously it can’t be easy to unlearn what was THE TRUTH for a lifetime. But she’s STILL DOING IT. Maybe it set her soul at ease to do the research and come to the conclusion that “probably being gay isn’t a sin” but it hurt Becky when she found out.
Where is Rocketboy1313 saying there’s no point in trying to change her beliefs? Where is it saying that Roz doesn’t believe Joyce will ever change? Who says she’s never going to forgive her? IN THE MOMENT, she’s frustrated and very very angry at Joyce, who has taken eighteen years to realize that lgbt are oppressed by things she’s dogmatically believed. Have you never had a situation where you weren’t ready to forgive someone the very second they were remorseful?
The last line is leading things that way, but she starts by discounting Joyce’s realization. And the context of the whole thing, starting in on her the moment she really starts showing that she’s changing her views?
This whole thing looks like someone who’s taking a dig at someone they don’t like when they’re vulnerable and easy to hit. And that’s just as likely to lead to an emotional rejection of that change as it is to hammer home any “truth” here.
Joyce “continues” her behavior with Ethan? You know her beliefs are changing THIS VERY MOMENT right? How would she have stopped doing the bad thing BEFORE realizing why it was bad exactly?
Joyce doesn’t believe people “deserve” to be made to suffer by other people. You disagree. That’s fair enough, but (weird as it is to say this) I’m with Joyce on this one.
Ethan wants to be in the closet, man. As far as she can tell, she’s doing him a favor. Heck, as far as HE can tell, she’s doing him a favor. Literally the only gay person she knew is supporting a belief given to her by people she loves and trusts.
It’s not a good situation, but it’s not like she’s the only person responsible and frankly reaming her out does nothing but give the a-hole reaming her out a few sparkling moments of holier-than-thou smugness.
Eh, Roz is kinda wrong, here. I mean, this is word-picking a bit, but an epiphany, by definition, is a major change in one’s personal views. But even ignoring that:
Someone moving towards your side is a good. It increases the good in the universe. In this case, it’s an increase in good without any downside at all. This is Roz freaking out because someone has started supporting her.
Now, Roz’s points aren’t incorrect, but the question is why saying them at this point in time is of any use to anyone.
I’m pretty sure Roz’s harsh words will act as a catalyst here: while Joyce is on the right path, hearing this probably forces her to confront all the stuff she yet HASN’T aknoledged is hurtful… such as her wishing to “cure” Ethan.
I dunno, stuff like standing up against your fundamentalist Christian parents on behalf of your atheist friend and openly accepting and supporting your recently outed homosexual friend qualify as a few steps in my book.
She’s not really doing much to try and cure him, though. If anything, Joyce clings to Ethan because he’s safe, not because he’s a religious conversion project. Joyce is still working through her trauma, and whacking her upside the head with a bunch of angry rhetoric really isn’t helping her.
If she wasn’t a powder keg of trauma concerning male sexual attention, that point would have a bigger meaning.
While she’s not actively trying to panky away his gay, that’s because she’s not able to get near hankyland without having a panic attack.
Kinda throws a wrench into anything she would have done with Ethan (if she even WOULD have gotten with Ethan) without the trauma steering her into his snuggly gay arms.
Or, if Becky didn’t exist to balance Joyce’s beliefs (and Roz doesn’t know about Becky) it could shatter her confidence in her new worldview and make her retreat into herself to rationalize, which is what most real people do when they’re challenged. Nobody likes being wrong. Being declared wrong for failing to have found the correct answer quickly enough for an arbitrary and cruel judge even less so.
Roz is rightfully pointing out that Joyce is divesting herself of responsibility. Joyce is saying the church shouldn’t, but ignoring the fact that she was part of that church and supported that church right up until it clashed with her life experience. Joyce is re-writing her personal history, failing to admit to her part in past social pressures and bigotry. She is a hypocrite.
Using the truth to make someone else feel horrible despite already having learned the necessary lesson to make oneself feel smug and superior is the fuck.
Look, you know why people in cities tend to be liberal? It’s not because cities are inherently better. It’s because they are exposed to people who are different than them and come to realize that the commonalities outweigh the differences. Joyce is learning that right now before our eyes. Getting pissed that she’s not doing it fast enough or that she shares some beliefs with whatever Christian pissed in your cereal one to many times doesn’t make you any more right than she is. Is just makes you look like you’re carrying a lot of bitterness, justified or not.
Really? You can’t just give Joyce a little time to adjust? Seriousy, it’s like you want her to change her views overnight. Scientist don’t even do that! Scientists still take time to change their minds, and they do it only after multiple tests of their preconceived notions. Now don’t get me wrong, Scientists do change their minds when they are wrong. But you can’t expect a christian girl trained not to even consider these ideas to change her mind faster than someone who has trained him or her self to evaluate the data and draw conclusions from the data itself, even if it requires a change in mindset.
Seconded. For Joyce, her Bible was valid data and a life philosophy. Her philosophy is changing to “My friends matter more than my beliefs,” whether that’s defending Dorothy or standing up for Becky — but she won’t change overnight.
No, but of all societal groups, scientists most require that level of objectiveness, and the ones who would be most often confronted with the data which requires them to change their opinions.
Also, if Scientists take longer while acting like humans, and Joyce is STILL within the expected time-frame for scientists not acting like humans, then I’d say that’s even stronger of a point.
But its a bat that only hurts those who know the truth. Those who are in denial feel nothing. So its a weapon that only hurts the very people you don’t want to hurt.
All it takes is a little bit of money and your own design. I know a student who had T-shirts made for everyone in our O-chem class willing to pay for one. Wasn’t too expensive, actually.
…Or no money if it’s someone else asking you to do it. In fact, it’s an easy way to earn money if the design is popular (and if creating the design is easy, I guess), now that everyone can use RedBubble or CafePress or whatever. Hell, Spencer’s has a one-off slogan shirt printer app you can use right on their site if you want something quick and dirty.
This might have had more impact if we had seen how Joyce acted in the past 4 weeks. Like was she just passive? Or did she try and ‘splain the church’s motivations?
This is very true, I think; both Roz and Mary are absolutely sure that they know everything, that their opinions are perfect and unassailably correct, that they’ve earned that high horse they climbed up on. They are equally wrong about those things.
Roz’s opinions are better opinions, but they don’t make her less full of knee-jerk hate and spite.
I know a lot of SJ people on tumblr. That is one of the reasons I am there so much now. Hell, my tumblr has a pretty fair bit of SJ on it (lots of cats and computers and anime too, but that’s beside the point).
Well, I’ve seen some using it entirely as a way to win arguments, feel righteous about themselves, and pour out all the hatred and negativity inside them onto acceptable targets. Which, IMO, is both bad and very very human.
Breaking out of the cycle of hating and “othering” entirely is, still IMO, a lot harder. Most people aren’t really interested.
Huh. I don’t know anything about tumblr. I’m familiar with fighting for actual social justice in the real world. Looks like social justice means something really really different on the Internets, huh.
depends on what part of tumblr you are on. Virtually all the people I know there are pro-SJ, some are more vocal than others, of course. But all are good people. Yeah there are some parts that overreact, and act badly, but it is hardly universal.
Oh, sorries. Ignore my rant below. Obviously I was speaking of internet speak “social justice”, rather than that which encompasses irl events, political lobbying, etc
Social Justice Warriors, or SJW’s, is generally used to refer to the sorts of people who spend more time shaming and attacking easy targets then actually doing something meaningful to contribute to actual change. Like, reblogging something somebody disagreed with and telling all your friends to spam their blog telling them to kill themselves. On the extreme end, this has resulted in folks who doxx somebody for having a blog they disagree with then inundate said doxx’d person with actual death threats.
Like many terms on the internet, it gets overused to the point where it’s applied where it is entirely invalid, but that’s where the term came from and how it differentiates between people with an actual interest in social justice.
well actually I hate to be that guy but there are certain advantages to being a tall dude. you are more likely to be a CEO, more likely to get a date, etc. etc. I mean I’m a 5′ 4″ girl so I’m not to sure on the details, but my boyfriend is 6′ 5″ and he’s mentioned multiple times how much he gets treated differently (positively) due to being tall.
The social justice movement has a lot of great ideas, but too often does its modus operandi look like Roz’s here. I realise that not everybody who’s into SJ is like this, but there are enough that the whole movement’s been painted with that brush. And that’s unfair, but I’m not sure that people acting like Roz are coincidental. Even the term itself: it’s “social justice” as in criminal “justice”. And justice demands people be punished for their wrongdoings, even if it helps the cause not at all on a practical level. IMO, the whole thing should be about educating, providing opportunities and support – raising everybody up, rather than trying to tear down the people at the top of the social pyramid. And I’ve seen too many people chewed out for their ignorance, too many people brutally harassed, too many people have their opinions totally dismissed for me to believe that the social justice movement isn’t about bringing people down.
Actually… no. “Justice” does not demand punishment for wrongdoings, it demands redress for wrongdoings–it demands making things right. Lifting every one up is a lovely sentiment, but it requires resources, effort, patience and time. And it requires these things from the people who have the most to spare–those ‘on the top of the pyramid’. There’s far too many folks who take the attitude that once you make active discrimination illegal, we should instantly be in a post-racist, post-sexist, etc. society. It doesn’t work like that, though. The acknowledgement of wrongdoing–that’s the first, tiny, baby step towards actually solving the problem.
Social justice (which has a couple of completely unrelated definitions, but never mind) is a good things.
Some of the people who advocate for social justice are assholes, just as with everything else. Well-intentioned fanatics and purists (“extremism in the pursuit of virtue is no vice”), or people who enjoy feeling superior to other people, or other types.
Whether SJ issues are more attractive of such assholes than knitting, say, I don’t know; I hear knitting sites can have some pretty hot flamewars.
OK. So what do we know about Roz? She actively participates in planned parenthood and distributes free condoms to her peers, (in a dignified costume no less). When she learned that the girl who slut-shamed her had had a hard time at her party, she immediately came to her and offered the smartest kind of help possible: contacts for counselling. Without asking any questions. She is an angry teen so she snapped at Joyce’s small step forward, that’s uncool. IMO, she’s a useful activist that puts her effort and time where her mouth is, and here she lost her temper.
And I’d like to add that people who take this as an occasion to laugh at “SJW” really don’t seem to have their priorities straight: really, you think people who are over-eager to denounce a crooked system are the ones your mockery should be targeting? THIS is what is worthy of your scorn? Not, like, the rich old white dudes running your country, trying to ban abortion, and fighting to protect laws that make it LEGAL to murder a trans woman?
I KNOW!!! It’s like “Where am I going to get my news now?” I sure as frell can’t turn to CNN or FOX because neither of them have journalistic standards. My options become British Broadcasting and PBS. Worst part is – when I feel morally ill from a news event, no one is going to help make me feel better right after and/or during the delivery. 🙁
I’m going to need some sort of evidence to even remotely believe this… as far as I know murder is murder regardless of the sexual orientation, gender, etc… of the person murdered…
It’s the trans panic defense. It basically goes “I was so freaked out when i found out she was trans that i killed her.” It’s a legal defense in many states and because of it many people get away with killing trans people.
Roz won’t teach anything to Joyce. She waited until after Joyce had got the message to even mention anything on the subject. This is just Roz, again, pulling her arrogant ‘I know everything I need to about this class already’ crap. Only this time instead of arguing with the teacher she’s harassing another student.
Another student that she led to an event that resulted in an emotionally scarring experience and was completely ignorant of what transpired until the next day despite being there and writing it off as some buzz kill moment of the party prior to finding out the involved parties. And seeming to have forgotten that now.
Yep. Roz invited Joyce to that party so that she could “learn something,” and now she’s complaining about Dorothy staying silent and letting ignorance continue. Maybe your teaching methods aren’t the best, Roz. Let Leslie take care of it.
Actually, Roz invited Dorothy and Dorothy “invited” Joyce (really, Joyce invited herself and Dorothy went along with it). The first time Roz heard of it was when Dorothy explained why drunk Billie was hanging on her.
Why has anyone forgotten that Roz’s FIRST reaction when she learned that Joyce had been through “something” was to offer counseling contacts without further asking any questions? And this was AFTER Joyce had slut-shamed her because her “flower” had no petals left… When Roz first talked about “a fight” she had no idea what had happened, or how Joyce was concerned. Sure she’s harsh, but she’s not as mean as you paint her.
Neither is Joyce. As for shaming someone over their chosen lifestyle, Roz was perfectly happy to do that right back at Joyce in this comic. She has no moral high ground here. At best she can say she is as bad as Joyce on the opposite end of the spectrum. Personally, and perhaps due to the fact that we’ve seen evidence that Joyce at least is evolving out of what Roz is complaining about her being…I think Joyce is much better than Roz. As a character and as a person.
So basically, Joyce improving is going to be met with more critique of how she used to be and no encouragement for the person she could be in the future? No. Just no. That would be the most effective way of stopping progress before it’s even started.
I’m not. I’ve had the day Leslie’s having. Being a teacher in that situation (or similar) sucks.
Unless that isn’t what you meant, in which case nevermind.
I’m betting it’s zero. I also ‘enjoy’ how she assumed that Joyce has personally denied LGBT people respect and shelter. Considering that both times an LGBT person has come to Joyce requesting help, she’s unstintingly and unhesitatingly given it the best she could, I’d actually say that ‘the church’ was never her.
Not that Roz cares about facts or context, when there’s a way to pat herself on the back for being so very openminded.
I could be remembering wrong, but I’m also pretty sure the only time those two have argued before, it had nothing to do with gender issues but rather about pre-marital sex. All of Joyce’s dealings with Bi and Lesbian type stuff have been happening when Roz hasn’t been around.
Had this been the topic they’d had the huge fight about, it might make some sense. But this feels more like Roz is using Joyce being devout and a little fundie in order to assume that she has all of the worst traits fundamentalists tend to have.
Is it possible that Roz might have heard the loud argument with Amber in the busy cafeteria about Joyce trying to ‘cure’ Ethan? Because that wouldn’t scream respectful or helpful.
Given how Becky’s parents reacted, how often do you think that a teenager or young adult was just ‘disappeared’ from their church, and their peers were simply encouraged to never even try to contact them again? I’m willing to bet it’s more than once every ten years, which means it’s very likely that at least one other ‘friend’ of Joyce’s IS living on the street, and Joyce never questioned it.
you don’t have to specifically offer shelter to criticize a group for denying it to others, not to mention she might not have the means to do that (especially not now, living in a college dorm). roz has clearly shown herself to be dedicated to social activism and has proven it in other ways.
Roz works for planned parenthood, distributes condoms to her peers. Discreetly offered the girl who openly shamed her for sleeping around some helpful counselling contacts when she realised she might need them.
As wonderful as it is that Joyce is growing as a person, it’s not some astounding development for everyone else. Joyce’s battle with her prejudices are hers alone, and is ultimately meaningless in the face of the horror that countless youths have faced for years.
Roz is being an asshole, but she’s right, in a way.
As wonderful as it is that this illiterate woman has learned to read, it’s not some astounding development for anyone else. Her battle with her ignorance is hers alone, and is ultimately meaningless in the fact of the illiteracy that countless humans have faced for years.
A success is a success IMO, and never meaningless. When someone rises above what life has tried to give them it’s a good thing whether or not what they’ve done is commonplace.
It’s not meaningless to Joyce. It’s vitally important to her, and how she will view the world and the people around her. But it’s unimportant to the rest of the class, let alone Roz, who’s had to hear from her how enjoying sex has defiled her soul, and has actively held these views for years now. Why should Roz be happy that, finally, Joyce has seen the light? Why should Joyce even have to learn in the first place?
Heck, the idea that the epiphany might be a common one is even more valuable here. After all, this may be a basic, simple observation that a lot of people for a variety of reasons have already gotten.
But this is Gender Studies 101. This is, in fact, the proper place to go over the basic facts. This is the place to have the common epiphanies if you have not already had them. Hell, I would not be surprised to find out that Leslie gets a lot of enjoyment out of teaching this class because this is the best place for her to get people to understand what it’s like and to change things for the better.
hmhmh… an illiterate woman is not (even unwillingly) part of a powerful machine that discriminates, humiliates and alienates minorities, directly and indirectly driving them to severe depression, homelessness and even suicide. However pure at heart, this is what Joyce has been doing for years: being an unknowing part of a vicious and powerful ideological machine. Sure she probably scarcely said anything mean, but we did see her tell Ethan and Mike that homosexuality is a sin, which is a truly harmful stance
Thing is, the only person talking about Joyce being a hero is Roz. No one was asking her to shower praise on Joyce. Everyone would probably have ignored Joyce’s outburst just as they ignore Joe, but *Roz* chose to make a big thing out of it.
I don’t know about ignoring. I assume the class has long since learned to ignore anything coming out of Joe, but Joyce attacking the church would certainly draw attention.
Joe just wants to get laid without dealing with deep emotional feelings. Roz acti8vely looks down and insults anyone who doesn’t agree with her, isn’t on her level or thinks they know better than her.
i’d like to point out that while Roz was totally in the wrong, she DID point out something Joyce didn’t realize. Joyce was the church, and while she realized the church was wrong, if Roz didn’t speak up she would’ve stayed as self-righteous as before.
I’m going to be honest, I think I actually agree with Roz, here. I mean, it’s nice that she had that epiphany and all, but it’s not like anyone should be praising Joyce for deciding to treat a subset of people with respect, finally.
Joyce openly slut-shamed Roz befcause of her damaged “flower”, and was perfectly happy telling Mike that homosexuality is a (hateful) sin. Now THAT’s disrespect, even if she did not know it
Because Joyce said something that Roz would feel heroic saying as an iconoclast. Roz frames Joyce’s behaviors in terms of her own actions and decides that what Joyce said was heroic but that she is not in fact a hero. In a way Roz is defending her brand.
Joyce didnt ask for praise and no one asked for her to be praised. It’s a classroom. She was learning and reacting to new information like a normal student.
A classroom is also not the place for Roz to mock two of her fellow students and cause a scene with personal attacks. I’ve gone to school with people who annoyed me and managed to keep it out of the classroom quite fine.
That’s true, Roz is not making this classroom a safe learning place, even if her reaction is perfectly justified. Leslie to the rescue!! (I want to see more Leslie. she makes everything feel safer in this comic)
This. Roz is right, Leslie is doing what is right. Two separate things.
Also, about ninety percent of the defense of Joyce I’ve been seeing in this thread really could be said about Roz’s outburst, as well. She’s just as much a product of her own homelife as Joyce is, and we’ve seen enough to have some idea of what’s driving her.
That certainly isn’t something to praise Joyce for.
What Joyce deserves respect and praise for is reevaluating her beliefs after she gained new insight and knowledge about the consequences of the beliefs she held.
As a college professor myself, I have to agree with this. In my view, college is where you learn who you are. Roz (and to a more quiet extent Joe) will have wasted their four years if they walk out as the exact same person they walked in as.
Except that she continues to try to avoid doing that. Instead, she spends up all night looking for a suitable re-interpretation of the Bible that will carve out a Becky Exemption while still making it totes okay to continue attempting to ‘convert’ Ethan.
Except her exception does clearly apply to Ethan, since she decided homosexuality wasn’t really a sin. We really haven’t seen how that is going to play out yet.
This has already been a process for Joyce. Her attitudes have already changed based on her interactions with Ethan. I doubt this is the end of the changes.
But that’s still it–it’s a pattern with Joyce’s judgements.
“I like this person. This person does something I’ve been taught (and have been telling others) is wrong. Since I like this person, my teachings must be wrong up to the limit necessary to make it okay for me to continue to associate with them.”
So Ethan got a Friendship Exemption. Dorothy got one, and now Becky’s gotten one.
When she stops issuing exemptions, and starts questioning the need for them, THEN I’ll be impressed with Joyce’s growth. Until then, she’s a good person causing a lot of unintentional pain.
Most people don’t reach a sudden epiphany in an entirely different direction after a lifetime of thinking otherwise. Cognitive dissonance does not lead to change so simply, and sometimes not at all.
Sooooo, how long ’til the class bursts into chaos?
Roz has a point, I’ll admit. And remember what platform her sister’s been elected on – she’s probably gone through some crap up to this point. Phrasing, though? Honey, you’re just bringing Joyce ever closer to her inevitable total breakdown.
There’s a lot of running gags in the show. One is Archer shouting ‘Phrasing’ after almost any double-entendre–in amusement in most cases, in anger when it is about his mom, whose ongoing sexual exploits are a never-ending source of discomfort (ranging all the way up to disgust at times).
Good point. Roz is saying this in a really assholish way (which, you know, given her roommate’s Mary and she knows Joyce and Mary are at least church acquaintances, I can see where she might suspect Joyce is an asshole too), riiiiight as Joyce is about to crack.
Not good class behavior either way. But since Roz has definitely been dealing with Mary and probably Robin, and since I suspect she may be bisexual or biromantic (or at least hasn’t ruled out the possibility she might be yet), I can see why she’s just about done with religion in general. Dick move on her part, but she doesn’t know Joyce very well and there’s only so much shaming you can take before you lash out. She shouldn’t be generalizing, but I can potentially see why.
In my experience, such people do not value or respect allies at all, except as a screen of “plausible deniability” which allows those who are part of the group, but not yet ready to come out about it, to avoid being identified. “Allies”, they declare, do not contribute anything else to the cause and should not be otherwise acknowledged or included.
That’s a little rough. They do appreciate allies but it’s hard when members of the community have their experiences discounted in favor of allies’ stories.
Wow, I’m surprised by these first few comments. I thought for sure it would be one big Roz cheering squad. I’m guessing it’s not the message, but rather the delivery that has people disliking her?
(I happen to be against message and delivery, but I doubt I’ll be going down that road in this comment section.) 😉
Well, except when Roz realizes that a scared and vulnerable peer has had an undefined bad experience at a party, and proceeds to give that peer the best advice she’s received from anyone, including all of her well-meaning friends, despite the fact that said peer slut-shamed Roz promptly after meeting her.
a) She is being an asshole. She is harassing Joyce for changing her views – she didn’t ask to be praised, she didn’t want to be seen as a hero. ROZ wants to be seen as a hero for preaching equality so she thinks Joyce does too now and she JUMPS on the opportunity to tear Joyce down for having different views before so that people won’t view her as favourably as someone who was always on the equality train.
b) She’s acting as if it is Dorothy’s job to forcibly change Joyce’s views to be the same as her own, to be ‘better’ than her current ones, which would not really be any different from when Joyce walked in and told off Joe for his premarital hanky-panky – it would be forcing your views on someone else still, but apparently that’s okay if it is your side forcing the views on others? Um, no, Roz is a hypocrite.
c) Worst of all, she is condemning Joyce for actions that she was never a part of personally as if she went out of her way regularly to throw LGBTA people out on the streets while Joyce is actually more of a ‘hate the sin, love the sinner’ kind of person.
I agree with the UNDERLYING message that you aren’t a magical new person for a small epiphany, but that isn’t something you say to someone because it makes you an asshole that is bringing them down when they were actually growing and literally every other part of her message is completely wrong – it’s not wrong to change your mind because your situation has changed multiple times, it is wrong to force your views on someone else regardless of what they are about with few exceptions (children need you to override them with a ‘no, that’s wrong’ sometimes for instance, though you should also tell them why you think so instead of just shutting them down obviously), and no, you should not condemn individuals for the acts of other individuals as if they were actually aware of what those other individuals were doing before.
Seriously though, this is EXACTLY what Joyce needs right now. No pandering, no bullshit, just a straight-up confirmation that she isn’t nearly as nice or compassionate as she likes to think she is. This might even lead to the fabled Joyce breakdown that so many of us have been waiting for. One can only hope! 😀
Uh, no? This is Roz being a spiteful and vindictive asshole towards someone who has clearly just experienced a paradigm shift on her entire worldview.
What Joyce needs is support and calm, not someone directly accusing her of oppression through ignorance in the most hurtful way possible, regardless of how much of a point they have.
Joyce has had this coming for a LONG time now. I’m sick and tired of commenters here praising her *~compassion~* and *~selflessness~* when she’s been a judgmental, hypocritical asshole since day one. This is something she NEEDS to hear, no matter what form she hears it in. It’s plain and simple.
But people here are so rarely willing to call Joyce on her bullshit. I keep hearing “oh no, you don’t understand, she’s GOING to become a good character thereby we can excuse everything she does now!” in a way that no one seems to extend to oh, let’s say, Danny.
A bad person wouldn’t have allowed herself to be open to these possibilities. A bad person doesn’t allow the idea that they’re not the hero of their own story to enter their mind – Joyce is slowly getting that beaten into her head. She’s a good person, she’s simply been given a bad instruction book at such an early age that she has had, until this comic began, no other rubric by which to compare it.
Having been through what she’s going through, I’m inclined to cut her some slack.
What makes Joyce a good character is that she tries to do what she feels is right. Her intent matters. What also matters is that several times she’s sided with being kind, loyal, and loving over some of the beliefs she’s grown up with.
Is Joyce a deeply flawed character? Yes. Does she out of ignorance say terrible things? Yes. Is her world view not normal? Yes.
So you don’t think Mary believes she’s doing the right thing? There’s a reason “Intent isn’t magic” has become a mantra on the left–it’s because intent is used to excuse a great deal of really, really horrible shit.
Well my arguments are specific to Joyce, because she does appear to honestly love and care about others around her. These are generally characteristics that our society considers “good”.
So if I’m reading you right, people who have opposing views to yours (or those you disagree with) are bad people. That’s not a very productive stance to take.
When those views support and perpetuate the horrible oppression of entire segments of humanity then yeah they are bad people. Not because they disagree with me but because they disagree with basic morality.
Joyce loses sympathy from me when she encourages physical violence upon her date when he hadn’t even done anything wrong, much less the action that she was grossly overreacting to and helps a gay guy to get back in the closet and date him, thereby encouraging a relationship that solves nothing, makes no one happy, and just hurts all parties involved. There comes a point where you have to hold someone responsible for their actions.
Given your previous mention of him, I assume you’re a fan of Danny, right?
Because early on, that guy was a mopey, moralizing, vaguely misogynistic whiner who tried to get his girlfriend to give up her dreams, and then tried to ruin her new relationship to prove a point to himself.
Walky has been a prick sometimes, Dorothy had a tendency to be stuck up, Sal was dismissive to everybody who spoke to her, Billie was a total asshole whenever she felt like it. These are people, let alone college freshmen, and they are growing and learning about the world around them.
Joyce has grown up her whole life with the knowledge ingrained in her that gay people were awful and going to hell, and having met literally two of them, made a 180 on that and decided otherwise. I won’t ask you to like her, and it is deeply unfair to expect anybody to condone or forgive her actions, but they are what they are, and Joyce has shown a strong desire to change the viewpoints that clash with her desire to be a good person doing the right thing.
SPencer: The difference is that whereas most folks are willing to grumble about Danny, complain about Joe and rip into Sarah when they’re being complete jackasses (hell, “to Dan” has become a verb), Joyce gets a lot of passes for her upbringing–as if her upbringing were unique in shaping her. Roz is no less a product of her homelife–you know, the one where her older sister is now an extremely hypocritical politician who is perfectly willing to espouse horrible views (and, presumably, make equally horrible votes) in order to stay in office.
I can think of at least five characters in this webcomic who AREN’T let off the hook because of their “background”. Do we excuse Danny for what he’s done? Amber? Ruth? Mary? Sal? No we do not. Joyce is exempt because reasons. The hypocrisy infuriates me.
In answer to your “questions”:
Danny? No, but that’s because Willis hates him too
Amber? Yes, because Blaine is a Jerk
Ruth? Yes, because fan-favorite
Mary? No, because she is a jerk and, again, Willis-hate
Sal? Yes, because another fan-favorite.
Now, two out five isn’t so bad, but still! Only two out of five of your examples don’t get a free pass.
Sure we could side with Roz if she was guilting Joyce on say…. any of that. Roz is giving Joyce crap for not being on the side of angels in a timely fashion.
So Joyce isn’t being held accountable for any of that. Also a classroom is not a court, there is presumably a time and place for getting your accusations on.
I couldn’t disagree more. I know there’s a certain point at which you can’t blame your upbringing for your ignorance anymore, but I think Joyce deserves a little compassion. How does Roz berating her help anything? Maybe if she had spoken up like this before, but now she’s only tearing Joyce down when she’s finally making progress. You don’t fucking yell at someone for their past attitudes after they revoke them. That doesn’t help anyone.
Roz’s attitude here feels like someone yelling at an infant that just took their first step because they should already be running.
I think what bothers me the most is that Roz really knows nothing about Joyce as a person outside of her fundamentalist upbringing, and yet she still feels qualified to judge her.
This would be good for Joyce if it wasn’t in class, in front of everyone, in such a self righteous and angry way. If Roz had said the same thing outside after class in a flat sarcastic tone it would be sweet sweet medicine for Joyce. But that’s not really something Roz would do, that’s something Mike would do.
Thank you, Roz, for demonstrating one of the fundamental rules of human stupidity, namely, the probability of someone being stupid has nothing to do with any other quality that person has.
I’ve known people who would never have been willing to even recognize something like this, no matter what the cause was. The fact that Joyce was not only willing to, but actually went off on her own church, is a pretty good sign, in my opinion.
(And Crazy Dina… Combined?)
NO ROZ! YOU DON’T! YOU GIVE HER TIME TO PROCESS THE %#$@%# NEW INFORMATION! *pounds table*
This isn’t cool! Joyce has had nothing but epiphanies today, and this ISN’T a simple one. It requires going against things she’s been taught from birth, and she probably had no idea that there were those within her church that denied lesbians simple rights and protections! It’s different when the church appears to be trying to help these people, but when it becomes clear that it’s hurting people, like it was doing to Becky, that’s when Joyce’s attitude changed. No sooner, no later.
This is an important fact Roz seems to be missing – Joyce probably would have taken in Roz in a heartbeat if something happened that put her in trouble. She’d preach Roz’s head off, but she’d still take Roz in and protect her. But she would never in a million years to think to try to hurt any of these people. Her relationship with Ethan was based on what they thought they wanted and/or needed. Again, nothing more, nothing less. Were that to change, Joyce’s attitude would have as well.
It’s that simple. That neat. That easy.
Right. (Though Joyce’s motivations for dating Ethan are…also a little bit selfish.)
I can’t help but feel that Roz reacted similarly after the party, only to discover the context of Joyce’s actions and have a change of heart. Maybe discovering the truth of what’s up with Joyce will once again bring Roz back around.
Only if it can make Roz feel superior to Joyce. everything I’ve seen of Roz points to the fact that her acts of altruism have less to do with any empathy she has for others and more with her performing the roll she has chosen for herself (righteous morally evolved social crusader)
Yeah, the comic wasn’t condoning her actions. Roz was saying that “sex addiction” wasn’t a thing and got pretty huffy about it when Jacob insisted it was an issue for him, but the comic certainly never condoned her actions.
I mean, if nothing else, the results of the addiction and the effects on Jacob’s life (becoming a slovenly shut-in, affecting his job and other relationships) were never shown in a positive light.
I’m just grossed out that it even happened in the first place, and that later on I was supposed to view Roz sympathetically rather than as a total scumbag.
The comic didn’t treat it that way, hence why nobody else ever found out about it as it likely would have resulted in her getting kicked out and leaving the comic.
Joyce did make quite a display of her righteous indignation. Roz may have interpreted that as a bid for attention. An implicit request for praise.
Might not have taken issue quite the same way if she’d just overheard Joyce talking with some friends about how this information’s changing the way she thinks about the church, though who knows. Hard to say for sure. She and Joyce have kind of been at eachother’s throats since day 1.
I’m having a really hard time not sympathizing with Roz here, since I had the exact same reaction a few years ago about a once virulently homophobic preacher who changed his stance after his son came out. If it was literally anyone but his own son, he would’ve gleefully bullied him towards suicide, but since he managed to demonstrate a bare minimum of basic human decency to *his own son*, he’s a great progressive thinker.
I have a question. Did this person ever apologize? Did they admit that they were wrong, make any gestures of restitution, try to undo the damage they had done or help the people they had hurt? Or are they one of those J-holes who skips straight for asking forgiveness and blithely ignore the whole repentance part?
Yeah, all those socio-political powerhouses who change their opinion only after their shit effects them and their families personally kind of piss me off. I mean, I’m happy your son won’t be disowned and stuff, but maybe you could have had a little compassion for everybody else’s gay sons as opposed to just yours.
But, idk, it’s a matter of degrees. The homophobic preacher has actively spread his ignorant and hurtful beliefs for many years to the detriment of many families and people. Joyce was a minor until recently, and her ignorance probably hasn’t really created too much strife. The most of what she’s done is to Ethan, and I don’t think she messed with his head/self-esteem as much as allowed him to mess with his own head/self-esteem. And, as such, I’m willing to let Joyce receive some praise for this revelation, where I wouldn’t be so forgiving of the preacher.
That perspective helps me understand Roz. Sounds like that preacher has a lot to answer for, and will never really be able to clear his name.
Joyce still has a chance, though – her worst transgression (her treatment of Ethan) can still be turned around.
I’m sure Roz has had the same exact belief system her entire life, and was the same person at 8 as she is at 18.
She’s got a right to be mad, sure, but that isn’t, and never will be, a license to lash out like a petulant child. Her moral highground looks awfully familiar, too, given she’s basically being Joyce from weeks ago, around the sex tape.
I’m confused what you mean when you say Joyce “didn’t do” something. What didn’t she do?
As for the witch comment, that doesn’t read like an accusation to me. That reads like a sincere question born out of general ignorance…ignorance that wasn’t helped by Roz’s sarcastic response. Now does that make it any better? Not by much. But in that same strip Roz comes in referring to Joyce as “Bible Girl” because she had never bothered to learn her name. Neither of them have bothered to learn anything about the other and have instead imprinted whatever stupid sterotypes they’ve learned from their politics onto the other. Which I suppose was my point all along- Roz in her own way has been acting like Joyce’s opposite, happy with her own world views and stupidly hostile towards everything outside of them. She demonstrates some amount of compassion towards people she doesn’t understand ala that card she gives to Joyce…just like Joyce does when sticking up for her atheist friend and so forth. But her outburst here doesn’t make her right. In fact, I’d say it makes her worse than Joyce, because of the two so far its Joyce who has demonstrated a willingness to change.
You are saying that when confronted with evidence that something terrible has or is happening to a person that Joyce Brown will refuse to give them any help she can provide due to personal dislike of that person?
Sorry, Mr. Freemage. That doesn’t sound anything like the character *I* have been reading about all this time. I’m willing to hear what has led you to this conclusion, but its gonna be a hard sell. The fact that we have yet to see her help someone that she doesn’t like is not any kind of proof that she would NOT do such a thing. Moreover, I submit that “Joyce helping only people she likes” only appears reasonable because Joyce tends to like most of the people she comes into contact with…perhaps to a fault.
I’m firmly with Roz on this, but really I’m looking forward to this playing out. Better to lay it on thick, get the crying and the apologies out of the way, and let bygones, instead of extended animosity and constant torture.
I feel like both Roz and Dorothy are missing something here. Roz isn’t willing to let Joyce forget her past. She’s bringing it up when clearly Joyce isn’t that person anymore. But Dorothy, in her own way, is too willing to help Joyce here. It’s good that she’s supportive of this change in Joyce, but as Roz is kinda saying.
“Until today, that was you.”
Until Joyce has made full amends, or at least begins to do so, she’s still in danger of falling back.
She’s still dating Ethan in hopes of turning him straight. I feel like the breakup of that relationsihp seems to be where this scene will lead.
But… Joyce has never been that person. Aside from her date with Joe, when has she ever tried to be anything but helpful to someone? Even her relationship with Ethan isn’t just her trying to “fix” him, there was a lot of lead up to it from Ethan’s side as well where he’s grappling with maybe it is better for him to go back into the closet. From an outside perspective it’s pretty obvious that that’s not going to work, but it’s fitting that he’s not operating from an outside perspective on his own behaviour. And frankly, if he decides that he can’t go back into the closet, I’d be utterly shocked if Joyce didn’t do her best to support him anyways. Heck, take a look at how she reacted when Becky needed help. Sure, she did check to see if it was ok with the scriptures, but the first thing she did was say yes. There wasn’t even much thought behind it. Her best friend needed help, so she offered it.
For Roz to accuse her of being the same as these organizations that deny help to those who need it is unfair, and frankly, wrong. She doesn’t actually have a point here because Joyce doesn’t turn away people who need help.
Except that the problem is highlighted in how Joyce processes these changes. Each and every time, it’s a case of, “This is a person I like, therefore my prior teachings that say that what they do is inherently evil must be wrong. Time for me to excise precisely the amount of my scripture needed for me to make it okay to associate with them again, but not to look at the larger picture at all.”
And thus, she continues to blunder through and say (and do) hurtful things, all while believing it to be for the best.
Yeah, of course Roz isn’t willing to let Joyce forget her past. “Her past” consists of every single event from her birth until like, yesterday afternoon.
And by what standard is Joyce to be judged? Must she perform social activism under Roz’s watchful eye until such time as she has been deemed sufficiently amended?
Roz is kind of a poor choice for that, considering that, all things considered, Joyce has very little reason to like her no matter how much her viewpoint ends up changing.
No arguments that Roz is being a total bongo here, but I gotta agree with her. From her expression, Joyce does too.
That said, Leslie and Dorothy are totally in the right here. I’m not gonna throw a parade for someone that only has a moral epiphany when it’s *their* special someone that’s gay, but I’m not gonna berate them either. And a classroom really isn’t the place to beat someone with your moral high ground. That’s what the hall *after* class is for.
Summary: Roz is a right(eous) bongo, Leslie is having to (rightly) kick someone out of her class again (that’s the second time in four weeks? That’s pretty bad), Dorothy is right, and Joyce is looks pained as fuck.
So I’m gonna say Willis is doing a good job with the drama, as usual. How entertaining would things be if everyone was all wise and mature and shit?
And this is the point that everyone should take from this comic.
A person who’s made a mistake for a good chunk of their life doesn’t deserve special praise when they finally start correcting it, but they also don’t deserve to be trampled by someone riding in on the high horse of self-righteousness.
Roz has a terrible view on the world thinking that everything about a person is etched in stone. Roz has a point in the matter, but Joyce is refining her viewpoint by exposing herself to the world outside of her belief comfort zone. From what I’m interpreting, Roz is taking Joyce’s rage out of context, possibly thinking that this epiphany is only coming from listening to a sad story involving the lesson, not knowing anything about Becky, and just making herself look like an ass (again).
Roz is right in that Joyce’s mindset was enabling this behavior, she’s WAY WRONG to directly blame Joyce for putting homeless kids on the street. Unless Joyce actually did that, maybe don’t directly blame her for it.
Also, nobody said Joyce was a hero, they simply encouraged her more accurate view of things. I guess we shouldn’t be pleased when people begin to think about things more reasonably huh? For… some reason.
While I love Joyce and I can’t blame her for being raised how she was raised, I also can’t hate on Roz for this scene because SHE was raised with a duplicitous Republican politician for an elder sibling and probably spent a lot of time aggressively defending her views and getting zero respect for it. (Am I projecting? I may be projecting. And not just ’cause of my avatar.)
While I agree that analysis is plausible and indeed is probably true…if that’s the case, what she’s doing is projecting the anger or whatever pent up family crap she’s gone through with her sister onto Joyce.
Which is part of the point RJ is trying to make. If we give Joyce’s often hurtful behavior a pass because of her upbringing and immaturity, then why doesn’t Roz deserve the same opportunity? I’m not saying Leslie was wrong for kicking her out–time and place do matter. But I do have to wonder about how Joyce would’ve reacted to this lecture prior to Big Gay Becky arriving on the scene. (Best guess: A shit-ton of apologetics about hating the sin and loving the sinner, how it’s for the best of those poor gay kids to be forced back into righteous behavior even if it seems harsh, etc, etc.)
Exactly – Joyce gets a pass because we know her backstory, but Roz has a backstory too. She might be purging her anger inappropriately, but her anger is legitimate and very possibly comes from a place of hurt.
I’ve been thinking about this and am interested that lots of people are furious with Roz for disrespecting Joyce, but not for disrespecting Leslie. Les is the person who should be setting the terms of this conversation, and not just because she’s the professor… I’m really hoping we see a private conversation between Leslie and Roz tomorrow.
I find it grimly amusing that Roz decides to pick a fight not over Joyce disagreeing with her, but that she was apparently slow to change her position.
I get the feeling Roz’s rage is more to do with a possible lack of respect for her various declarations with an imagining of everyone functionally praising Joyce for her new position.
Not that they got much of a chance to react. Roz jumped on it rather quick.
Roz fundmentaly changed both the discussion and tone it ways that will derail the other character’s response to Joyce’s deceleration. The discussion now becomes about Roz vs Joyce, rather than the subject matter of Joyce’s bellicose declaration and the reasons for it. Mainly the importance of empathy, understanding, and compassion Which many organized groups (not just religions) general fail to apply even when it ostensibly a cornerstone of their group ethos.
But that discussion won’t happen now. And Roz demonstrated exactly why those things are important.
(It’s been said plenty before, but…) I really want to see how all of this affects Joyce’s relationship with Ethan. Change there seems kind of inevitable at this point.
Roz quite possibly has LGBT+ friends herself; plus, Roz has seen people like Joyce hate both Roz’s behavior and Roz herself (as a woman of color). Remember this? Joyce literally said that Roz has a damaged soul because she’s had too much sex. Also, Roz is sick of Robin trying to force Roz to be a poster girl for archaic, bigoted standards of purity to pander to a voting base that talks just like Joyce.
Roz has spent a lot of time pursuing healthy sex education for herself and her peers and has probably done hours upon hours of research to better herself, be capable of helping the LGBT+ community, and make sure she knows what she’s talking about.
So Joyce, who really is pretty brainwashed in a way that 18-year-old Roz is not equipped to understand, comes in and is totally shocked to learn these facts that Roz can probably rattle off by heart. Roz went out of her way to defy Robin, learn new perspective, and fight for better attitudes towards sex. Joyce blithely wandered around spewing hate because she didn’t know statistics that were readily available for her to find at any moment.
Roz is being a self-centered jerk here and should shut up and think about the question she’s asking in the first panel. But she has very, very good reasons to be angry at Joyce.
Those are good points and a very salient comic. Roz is plainly out of line here; the teacher isn’t ordering her out without reason. But seeing as how Joyce was fine judging her in the past, I understand why Roz might be so quick to seize on her.
Sure, she has reasons to be upset. But the fact remains, taking out your personal mad on someone, no matter how justified it is, just opens you up to more of the same.
JTo clarify the difference between Tom T’s reading and TSB’s point….
Joyce changes her views based around specific people–creating a very real form of hypocrisy. Roz, OTOH, is more likely to be starting from the broad rule (don’t judge the sexuality of others) and then seeing how failure to adhere to that rule is affecting people she cares about.
My only issue with this is the assumption that Roz has done the work as well. Unless we see it we don’t know that for a fact. I feel like a lot of Roz’s positions are thought out just enough to determine the position that is like to affect her sister the most.
We’ve seen Roz actively arguing for sexual freedom, helping distribute birth control, and slipping some orientation education into her conversations with Riley in a way I read as intentional, so I would say Roz has definitely done some research and is actively fighting for her beliefs.
But you’re right that we haven’t seen her talk about gay rights much, and she was pretty arrogant towards Leslie in one scene. So I might be overstating how knowledgeable Roz is. She might be a bad ally to LGBT+ people. Still, what we have seen from her is impressive enough that I’m inclined to empathize with this (still inappropriate) outburst.
I’m feeling pretty annoyed at the backlash against Roz here, so I’m going to elaborate on this. Once again, I totally agree that she’s way out of line, but this is one exchange probably taking less than 20 seconds. Her losing her temper for less than a full minute (and being appropriately criticized and punished by the people around her) is not grounds to dismiss her entire character.
Four weeks ago, Joyce told Roz that her soul was fundamentally damaged and almost destroyed because she’d had too much sex. Dorothy responded to Roz’s “sex tape as political statement” stunt by referring to it as “dumb”, and when she got an interview, pulled no punches in thoroughly questioning Roz’s personal and political choices. Dorothy turns full skepticism and criticism on Roz’s attempts and activism but coddles Joyce no matter what horrible shit she says.
Now, from Roz’s perspective, Joyce is going “Oh my god! The Church hurts gay teenagers? What??? Who knew this? Why didn’t anyone tell me?” And Dorothy, as usual, is holding her hand through this whole assumption.
As for “I’m expected to treat her like a hero”… yep, this absolutely happens. Arguing for feminism or LGBT+ rights makes you angry and humorless. I’m sure Roz has been called every misogynistic slur under the sun, especially after her sex tape. There are many, many people who like or share Facebook posts like “parents of the year heroically don’t set LGBT+ child on fire” but who would never actually recognize and praise activists who have been fighting for that kind of acceptance or who helped shelter kids that did get rejected. Which person is more of a feel-good human interest story: a priest who agrees to officiate gay weddings or a lawyer for a human rights organization fighting their hundredth case? People don’t want to hear about the hard, painful, often fruitless work of struggling for rights, they want to hear some cute story about how ~we all just need to love each other~ and then ~everyone ends up getting along~.
I love Roz and Dorothy and Joyce. I think they’re all self-centered and ignorant because they’re eighteen and leaving home and learning about new perspectives for the first time. I think they all have a long way to go in learning about the civil rights struggles happening in American society and how to help the people around them that are experiencing oppression that they don’t. I think Roz is further along than Joyce in that regard, though she needs to be careful not to tortoise-and-hare it up in that regard (I don’t think she will; Roz is less compassionate than Joyce but she still seems to me like a person who wants to do the right thing). I think ultimately this exchange will be a good thing for Joyce and will cement in her mind that she needs to keep up the introspection and criticism of her fundamentalist doctrine.
Hmmmm. Having spent 10+ comments arguing against Roz in this thread… you have a point. And you have explained it and elaborated it really well. I can see better where Roz is coming from now, and given a better choice of time and place this could have been the beginning of a constructive discussion.
I really don’t like the “ultimately it will be good for character X” argument for many reasons. But for the sake of paralellism I think that this will ultimately be good for Roz. She will remember this as the day she took all her passion, all her fury, all her finely honed argumentation skills and directed them NOT at the embodiment of the restrictive norms that her sister panders to, but at a confused and scared young person who was trying her very best to do the right thing at a high personal cost, and was just taking the first step in a journey that Roz herself began ages ago.
Oh, sorry, I should have been clearer: I don’t see “it will be good for Joyce in the long run” as a defense of Roz. That was meant as an analysis of this moment in Joyce’s character arc, not a reason why I think Roz’s anger is understandable. I do think it’ll be good for Joyce but I think a) that idea hasn’t occurred to Roz right now and b) it wouldn’t be a justification even if that was her reasoning.
I think you’re right about Roz. Willis has been setting Roz up for a bit of a fall (her boasting to Leslie that she doesn’t need the course, for example). I certainly don’t think she needs to be humiliated or anything but she could use a bit of humbleness and a reality check.
Ah, got it. Then I think we are on the same page there.
You are right that Roz is serving a plot function now and has been set up for it for some time (as pointed out in the alt text). Come to think of it, she has been cast in a less and less sympathetic light each time we’ve seen her (last time was when she did less than welcome advances to Jacob). She will have a reality check, just like you said.
In fact, something I really wish for now is that somewhere down the line Roz and Joyce will both have grown enough to reconcile their differences. That would be a very nice evidence of how they change into something better.
You know, you’re right. I’ve been too hard on Roz; she’s out of line here, but I responded too. Um. Energetically. Like this, it’s easier to understand where she’s coming from.
Well, i feel the in most cases negativity can lead to positive outcome in many cases, yes, roz is acting like a bongo and the way she acted is not suited for a classroom or most other places really, but hopefully this will lead to some development on joyce part and help her think a littlefor herself instead of thinking the holy book is all saying and all knowing……
Lotta Roz hate in here. Frankly, I agree with her. I realize Joyce isn’t a bad person and doesn’t deserve this level of vitriol, Roz is right. We shouldn’t treat people like they did something special for achieving a baseline level of respect for people.
Part of growing is having the ugly parts of you thrown in your face. In this case, that’s Joyce’s belief. So far her entire emotional journey has been about what other people have told her, and she seems to focus more on that than the fact that she chose to believe it.
As much as acceptance and respect for LGBT youth SHOULD be a bare minimum baseline for humanity, if we went by that baseline we’d be excluding over 3/4 of the population of the world. Sadly, it IS something special that Joyce has managed to grow a heart on this issue. Especially considering her upbringing. And I’m not sure how much of a “choice” her opinions are, when her livelihood in her parents’ house essentially entailed taking on these beliefs.
I’m not saying Joyce deserves a pat on the back, a medal, and a parade, but I think we can and should allow Joyce to feel good about doing a good thing and changing her opinion about LGBT people, as opposed to making her feel like shit like Roz seems determined to.
Calculus is an important skill for scientists. The moon is not made of green cheese.
What, you think those are non-sequiturs? No more so than Roz’s outburst about not treating Joyce like a hero. Sure, it’s “right”, but it’s not *relevant*, because Roz is the only one to bring that up. It’s about what’s happening in Roz’s head, not what’s happening in the classroom. (Unless Willis skipped a strip.)
Or maybe Roz equates “someone who knows less than me on this topic is talking about it” with “treating like a hero”
I mean, it’s almost like Joyce is learning issues related to gender studies in a class about gender studies. THE NERVE. STRIKE HER DOWN BEFORE SHE PUTS ON AIRS
One particularly big issue is that Roz did this in class. I’ve attended classes like this before; they almost always come paired with a disclaimer at the beginning of the semester saying what is and is not okay. As Leslie says, they talk about the material, not each other. Roz is teaching Joyce that it is not okay to ask questions or be offended in this course because she will be shot down, which has the potential to discourage her from asking questions and taking part in discussion later.
They’re not there for a confrontation, they’re here to learn. Roz not only hurt Joyce’s feelings, she basically shot down a great lead-up that Leslie had to continue teaching the material, damaged any trust that Joyce had that bringing up concerns and revelations of her own in this class and undercut Leslie’s authority.
I was too hard on Roz in prior updates, but I still believe what she did here was not correct or right.
I suppose if we’d gotten a beat or two more to show anyone, like, actually praising Joyce, I’d be more sympathetic towards Roz. As it is, her comments are frankly baseless and serve only to paint her as being needlessly vitriolic and hurtful.
You can do that without disrupting the class, you know. I’ve had an epiphany or two in class myself, but I somehow managed to restrain myself from shouting curses at all that’s wrong in the world right then and there.
To say nothing of Joe with his hacky jokes. Roz right here was flatout told she was derailing the discussion and she just kept on going. I don’t feel like it’s hard to leave this stuff until after class.
Not much per se i think except maybe transfered her from the slow-train over to the express-train, she still get to the destination, just a little quicker and on a more rougher xD
Well, that’s just the problem. You don’t have to be a horrible person to be enabling bigotry. History is full of very nice people doing horrible things, or just passively supporting those things being done by other people.
Thank goodness the subject I teach isn’t very polarizing. I could not handle this in my classroom.
In any case, I know that I would not have grown the way Joyce is now (I didn’t start where she did, but I did have a very narrow worldview not that long ago, and meeting a variety of people was necessary to help me understand the problem with my prejudices and assumptions) had it not been for the compassion and patience of the people who helped reshape me. No one went off on me, they just told me their perspectives. The honesty in it made the arguments convincing enough, and that’s all I needed.
Maybe Joyce needs a complete mental break to change, but I think she’s inherently good-natured and will grow just from gaining more evidence and perspective, and I think that approach will make the transformation not only smoother, but also quicker.
Roz’s self-righteousness is quite disgusting. Angry intolerant hateful behavior is despicable, regardless of the reason for that behavior. Acting like this makes her no better than those that she’s railing against.
Roz is full of shit. Joyce may have on occasion spoken out of ignorance but never out of hate to ANYONE no matter how counter to her world view they may be. When her friend came to her she did not turn her away even at great risk to her own situation at school. What she is going through is more of a contextualization than an epiphany. Joyce needs to change very little in herself, she is an open, accepting, and tolerant person. It is only that she needs to realize that there are many is her church community that aren’t, and that is a bitter pill for her to swallow.
It’s always tough to accept it when you find out people you love, and who love you in turn, have horrible characteristics, especially when they’re the people who taught you, who you admired growing up. It’s world-shattering and heartbreaking. Especially at that age, old enough to have been thoroughly convinced, but too young to have truly explored for yourself.
There will obviously be snags, but progress is the key. I understand Roz’s frustration, but I don’t think Joyce, the one who is actually trying to learn and grow now, should be the target of this rant, specifically.
Think about what Roz has seen. The last time we’ve seen interactions between the two of them, Joyce tells Roz her soul would be cut down to its roots, and wonders about her coven.
Joyce is trying to be accepting and tolerant, but that’s not really her upbringing and you can see she’s still learning how. When Roz says Joyce has changed from the last four weeks, she’s not wrong.
One of each. Since it wasn’t Roz’s party per se, she didn’t invite Joyce, and her full involvement was to try giving her information about what happened before getting asked about covens, I have a tough time considering it relevant to whether Joyce is accepting or not.
I can see Roz’s point of view but I also understand that Joyce is a product of her upbringing. She’s been exposed to a semester of diversity on campus but in reality that’s not going to undo the last eighteen years of what her parents and church community instilled in her. Understanding and tactfulness comes with age and different experiences, which Joyce is learning. To lash out on her especially after knowing her background makes Roz no different then the people who judged her. Which shows that Roz still has a lot of growing to do.
Even after seeing the Twitter comment about a word replacement, it took me WAY too long to notice everyone saying bongo, like I just assumed it was referencing some meme I hadn’t seen yet.
I saw the tweet too, but I didn’t connect the dots. My thought was “I wish he had said that on Tumbler so I could ask him what word he was replacing with what”
As rotten and over the top as that is, Roz /kinda/ has a point. Joyce is being a bit of a hypocrite for talking down to the church when she was one of those people.
No, but spontaneously turning around and acting like it’s not something you were a part of it.
I don’t know why, but the “I was against gays before, but then my FRIEND turned out to be one of them!” thing really bothers me. Like they didn’t realize hating and judging other people was wrong until it personally affected them. I know the end result is that we get a new ally, but damn.
She probably didn’t know all the stuff she learned in the last strip – her reaction isn’t just down to her friend coming out. Maybe she wouldn’t have had the same reaction if it wasn’t for Becky though.
Roz has only ever met intolerance with intolerance. The closest she came to trying to expand Joyce’s worldview was encourage her to seek a therapist after what happened with Ryan. And that took something ,she could only assume, horrible happening.
Good on Leslie for telling her to step outside. The comments Roz was directing at Joyce was unacceptable given the situation, disrespecting the teacher even more so after repeated warnings. You don’t attack someone for a sudden change in worldview or a realization. Even if Joyce does need it thrown in her face. Becky’s doing a good job of that by distancing herself and actively calling her out for inconsistencies.
I think it’s hard to say whether or not anyone is feeling “smug and superior” because we don’t have a live feed into anyone’s head, and we’ll never actually know how someone is feeling, unless they honestly tell us. So, unless Roz says, “You know, I feel like I’m better than her right now…” then we can say, for sure, that’s she’s feeling smug and superior. But she could also just be feeling angry… really angry. And it’s not unjustified. Is she being a jerk? Yes, but Joyce still hasn’t come to the realization of her part in it. She still hears of “her church” doing it, “her peers” doing it… but never yet considered that it was also “her” doing it. She was angry she has an oblique association with homophobia… but hadn’t yet admitted that she also had a direct part in it. That’s a different beast.
I don’t think Roz is saying, “You changed your mind for the wrong reason”… it’s that just learning something doesn’t automatically make you better. You have to put more effort into it.
I’m inclined to be on Roz’s side, here. Truth is not nice, and learning is not painless.
That might be applicable if Roz had asked what Joyce was going to do with this newfound revelation of hers. Piling on her for what’s already done isn’t productive.
And this is why I am so glad not to be in my late teens/early twenties. I’ve seen some really vicious things happen when I was in Bloomington in 94. I was in a sociology class and everyone ganged up on this poor girl from Israel. It was awful. She was sobbing and dropped the class, dropped out of IU and moved back to Israel. I also saw these assholes gang up and berate this older student in my French class and made fun of him for mispronouncing stuff. The dude had a hearing impairment. He had a visual hearing aid. I got shitty with them and said “Uh, people with hearing impairments take longer to learn how to pronounce things. Lay off.” God, I hated that time in my life.
Its not just teens and 20 sometimes, people who are bullies like that never stop. I still get prank calls from a jerk I met in freshman year. He’s in his 40’s now.
I really don’t like it when people get judgmental over other people’s failure to forgive… or do so in quick enough a fashion… particularly when the party to be forgiven has yet to deliver a simple, honest “I’m sorry”.
I’m not going to go out of my way to say that Roz’s actions here are appropriate. But, neither am I exactly going to refuse her the right to make Joyce’s earlier castigation of Roz have any consequences, whatsoever.
Pretty sure when most people go “GODAMN SOCIAL JUSTICE” it’s aimed at the jerks on tumblr that verbally tear down a guy for getting a girl home after finding her passed out drunk, and finding him a creep for looking at her phone to find her mom.
yeah, those people, all over, my cousin said he saw that one time, did you know they are also pushing for laws to outlaw straight men going outside? too far imo
Yeah, but that’s a vocal minority, the people who get way too much focus because it’s the picture that people who are against feminism and the like WANT to be painted of those groups. You’re more likely to get “well done guy” from a majority of feminists on Tumblr.
Barring that, Tumblr is the chosen outlet for a lot of people to vent their frustrations on. It’s not surprising to find very extremist opinions there because it’s treated as a safe haven from the judging eyes of irl society. People making assumptions based on those posts are merely taking a view into the mind of someone who’s obviously very pissed off with their daily life, rather than making a coherent judgment of an social justice group.
I know what it is. But what I’m saying is that it’s not a bad thing. You *want* to be a warrior for social justice. There is literally nothing bad about social justice. People using it as an insult are basically saying ‘ewww, youuu… youuu DECENT PERSON!’. That makes no sense.
Ehhh, I wouldn’t use “warrior” to describe myself as a social justice proponent, because warrior carries violent connotations which run very contrary to what I think social activism is supposed to be about. To me, it’s meant to be a non-violent movement. The people who use violence as a means to bring awareness to social inequality are the so-called “warriors” that people who hate social activism point to in order to denounce the whole concept entirely.
That’s just a quibble over a word though. Fighter, then. Or even proponent, even though that seems less like an action word, more like a talk-y word. Champion, maybe?
We agree, basically, is what I’m saying. I’m anti-violence, pro justice, social and legal and any other kind of justice there may be.
Whatever, I don’t even really hate the word ‘warrior’. You become a warrior if you fight for something you believe in. It’s obviously not meant in a violent context here. Also, this word in our society has transcended the restricted meaning of a person who violently fights to the death, etc., it can totally mean just being a fighter for something and you know that, too.
Besides, sometimes you have to get a little loud, a little aggressive to get the message across. Progress is not made just by people singing Kumbaya. It also takes the people who organize a protest or a demonstration or a rally. Peaceful. Not violent. But agressive and out there. With the intent of being heard and being seen. I don’t hate ‘warrior’ as a descriptor for people like that to be honest with you.
Anyway. Social justice warrior/fighter/champion etc. isn’t an insult, shouldn’t be an insult and the movement of people reclaiming it and being proud of being called SJWs gives me hope, because they should be proud. Justice is always worth fighting for.
But you don’t want to be a social justice asshole, which is what a bunch of these people really are. “I’m Right and they’re Wrong and that justifies my treating them like shit.” Just like Mary, but with a different Right and Wrong.
No, it’t something used to describe people who do things like dox people for writing a racially insensitive limerick, or post the personal information of Klan members online to have people harass them at their homes and businesses. Or spam a person’s job until they get fired because they made a comic that ridicules said actions.
I kinda think that anyone who is coming down hard on Roz about this but didn’t come down equally hard on Joyce about that kinda has a double-standard. I can understand a reader responding more harshly to this because Roz is more eloquent (and has a better chance of hitting her target), whereas Joyce’s “hanky panky” freak out came across as sillier and more humorous to the reader (which took some of the edge off), but in terms of intention, Joyce really wasn’t any better.
I do agree that Roz shouldn’t be doing this, but Joyce shouldn’t have pulled that unbelievable crap either.
Also relevant moments from that scene: Joyce basically saying Roz is a horrible person because she has sex (with a pretty nasty look on her face, in contrast to her ‘caring about [Joe’s] soul’), and Roz asking if that’s how Joyce makes herself feel superior, which feeds right into this scene (“first Joyce thinks she’s better because she’s pure, and now she’s a hero for being a decent human?”)
I’m definitely in Dorothy’s camp here, but…
Joyce tries to be a nice person, and she has a good heart, but there have been at least a couple of times where she tosses that out the window because of her faith (and, yes, upbringing; I know she’s a kid that’s in the process of growing). Especially pertinent to this comic, Roz has been the target of at least one of those times.
Should Roz have gone off on her like this (especially after being told to drop it)? No. But I can definitely understand her getting fed up and not willing to have any patience.
The way she’s doing it is not something to applaud. It’s a blatant personal attack, and it’s not productive toward the ultimate end goal of understanding. I think Roz is being a bongo, despite having a valid point.
This very comment board, only last strip, was acting like Joyce was some kind of hero now for having what is indeed the simplest of epiphanies. When Roz calls out the idea that Joyce is suddenly SO GREAT for only now realizing the church’s fuck ups (and only once she had something personal happen to her) she is calling out all of you that were so quick to applaud Joyce. The author wrote that intentionally. Willis even says in the alt text he basically put Roz in this class so she could be there to call out joyce like this.
Sure, Roz is being mean. But you know what? Mike is mean. all the time. in so many worse ways for shits and giggles. and people call him awesome. people love mike no matter how much of an asshole he is and concoct all these ridiculous justifications about how he’s an asshole “for other people’s own good.” They make excuses for him and try to say he regularly fucks people over to somehow help them.
But on the other hand when Roz makes a completely legit point in a mean way?
People like you call her the b-word so many goddamn times that Willis actually had to censor it to bongo. I see the difference. So no, I’m going to continue to applaud Roz, until the amount of reasonable conversation on here outweighs the amount of sexist assholes calling Roz a b-word.
I don’t think we think Joyce is a hero, I think we are excited for her to be reaching that conclusion.
Also, how often does he ever say anything about a person? Seems to be he more often criticizes acts and objects, and sometimes does things that are outright ridiculous, but he never insults anyone directly and almost always gives them an out.
o_o
O_O
._.
6_6
¬_¬
http://persephonemagazine.com/2013/01/gif-it-to-me-baby-popcorn-gif/gw-itcrowdmosspopcorn/
(I’m actually more like *scoots desk away*)
Yeah, you scooted your desk so far away you don’t even appear in today’s strip….
(bg panel 5 is me sneaking out the door hoo HOO)
((j/k))
(((idk)))
I’m partial to the gif of Michael Jackson eating popcorn, myself. So much more expression.
*not sure if smiling while watching*
I mistook Roz for an AK47 the way all those shots were fired
And the rocket’s red glare shot fired everywhere! We realize how, much a but Roz is!
Also SERIOUSLY WILLIS YOU PUT ROZ THERE JUST FOR THAT ARE YOU GONNA USE HER FOR EVERY MEAN COMMENT AGAINST OUR BABY JOYCE YOU MONSTER.
no mike gona smell the fresh reopend wound and come soon
Hopefully. Mike would probably be the best solution to this problem.
DAMN IT WILLIS!
No, it goes “DAMN YOU WILLIS”
Is that in response to the comic or the oncoming comments about it? 😀
Roz, Joe thanks you for eclipsing any chance he might have had of looking like the biggest jerk in this scene. For all his insensitivity, he just wants to pull his head into his turtle shell when compassion and feelings are called for, not actually try to start shit.
I have a feeling Roz is about to find out what matters more to Leslie– a chance at a date with Robin DeSanto or the relative emotional safety of her classroom– and be quite unprepared for the answer.
Oh yeah. I bet Leslie don’t play no shit.
I’m hoping Lez’ puts the smack down on Roz. That would be awesome!
That would be cause for Leslie to be fired from the school immediately.
I don’t think you understand the flexibility of the term “smackdown”
You also forgot the term “tenure”.
Do we know if Leslie has tenure yet?
Hell, no. She’s in her mid-twenties.
Frankly, I’d be surprised if she even had her doctorate; I got mine at 25 and that was considered amazing.
I suspect Leslie is either a grad student or ABD TA (Gender Studies TAs are likely to be teaching their own courses as it’s in the humanities).
If a student is being disruptive she is totally within her rights to call her on it, kick her out of class for that day, etc. She obviously can’t haul off and wack her, but I don’t think any of us really want that.
I agree philosophically with Roz, but her “more sex-positive-than-thou” act is every bit as narrow-minded and judgmental as Joyce’s church.
Ugh, yes. The only thing more annoying than closed-minded bigots is faux-open-minded bigots who lord their open-mindedness over those who are less so and attack them when they show even the slightest sign of growth. “Oh, you realize you were wrong? GOOD ALLOW ME TO INSULT YOU AND EVERYTHING YOU STOOD FOR EVEN THOUGH YOU CLEARLY ARE RETHINKING IT”
Yup. Hit them with that guilt too hard and they might just back away from that growth and desperately start burying themselves back in their ignorance so they don’t have to face it.
Not to mention, Roz is wrong. Joyce was (and is) a member of a church that doesn’t tolerate queerness, but she personally hasn’t done anything (that we’re aware of) to actively get LGBQT* kids disowned. The only thing she is guilty of is blindly following the path her parents and church set out for her.
Now Mary I’m willing to bet would and has taken an active role in attacking queer kids; but Joyce? Had all sorts of assumptions that she started dropping pretty much immediately after seeing them diametrically opposed to reality (for example, in the comic where Ethan came out as gay to her, and she replied “You seem normal.”).
So not really true, and really, really not fair of Roz.
I can’t wait until tomorrow. It’s like watching Russian traffic accidents on YouTube. Suddenly, there will be a car upside down in a ditch, but you aren’t quite sure which one it will be or how it will get there…
This is a good point. To make a point about the flip side of this: I’m from California, and I’ve had gay friends probably all my life and definitely from my teens on up. I never felt the need to actively be an ally in even a small way until I went to grad school in Texas, because I just assumed that the bigots and idiots were in the minority.
Passive support is still support.
Not to mention Joyce was never taught about any of these subjects until she came to the college. It’s not that she was passively supporting them, it’s that she was more…sheltered from how bad things could really be and actively closed them out of her vision.
She’s finally coming to her senses and Roz basically threw her open eyes into the dirt to make herself feel good about giving what she thinks is “righteous truth” to someone who was already realizing how much injustice was abound. Joyce wasn’t a monster who came around, she was an innocent who didn’t know better and is making strides towards improving. How she is helping and accepting Becky, as a lesbian, and stopped referring to her queer nature as a ‘mistake’ shows that.
Granted, we’re the audience, and know everything about said improvement, but Roz is being awful here.
I totally looked up russian traffic accidents after reading this. I am not disappointed.
Roz’s anger is justified but it is neither the time nor the place to bring this up, and as you said, there is a chance that this could stunt or stop any personal growth here. You shouldn’t attack people for becoming better people unless you want to try to make them stay bad people. The best way to fight hate is with love, not more hate.
um, “The only thing more annoying than closed-minded bigots is faux-open-minded bigots who lord their open-mindedness”… no? Being self-righteous in a mean way is not OK, granted, but needing time to forgive, or just snapping at people whatever the reason cannot be compared to shaming people for their sexuality. Which by the way is what Joyce herself did to Roz on one of their first encounters
Close-mindedness can happen to people irrespective of their ideology. When a particular set of values is viewed as open-minded you get the situation where dogmatic people are called open-minded. The hypocrisy of dogmatic “open-mindedness” is more annoying to contend with, but as of yet as done less harm.
Ugh, exactly. Every time Roz shows up she gets a ridiculous amount of hate and presumption. I’m not saying some of it isn’t deserved – she’s definitely out of line but damn it, she’s got a point and she’s not wrong for being frustrated with Joyce. OR for Dorothy for enabling her for that matter.
Keep in mind, Roz back in the Shortpacked-verse was so “open-minded” about sex-positivity that when a man turned her down for casual sex for a reason she didn’t like she basically stalked him until he gave in, wrecking his life in the process, and was never ever called on that.
So while this version of Roz may not have done anything like that, it’s in no way out of character and she still gets the hate her prior incarnation earned.
I’m not sure the Roz who gives cards to people she actively dislikes for help if she thinks they need it deserves to be lumped in the same boat as her SP! Counterpart.
I think the problem here is Joyce’s phrasing in yesterday’s page. “I am so angry at the church!” in no way admits any personal responsibility for the things Joyce herself has said and done to sex-positive and/or queer people in the past few weeks. It sounds like “the church has hurt these people but I’m still innocent!” I think THAT is what’s bringing Roz to pinpoint “that church was YOU!” today.
And look at Joyce’s reaction. She knows Roz isn’t wrong.
yes, exactly
But isn’t she wrong, I mean, Joyce just never knew
about any of this. Roz is sorta just kicking a
puppy, Joyce IS starting to learn. Being mean, while
justified, isn’t okay
It’s true that Joyce is using weasel words to distance herself from guilt, but it’s unreasonable and unrealistic to expect her to climb up on a cross and beg the class for forgiveness. And, although Roz doesn’t actually know this, Joyce is actually housing a newly homeless gay youth in her dorm room, AND doing her best to protect her.
Ultimately Roz’s only real goal is gatekeeping: she cares about it more, she cares about it first, she cares about it without having it directly affect someone around her.
I guess I missed where Joyce had been throwing kids out of their homes for being “not right”.
She isn’t in a position to do that, but she’s obediently supporting the people who do. And in the meantime she’s hating homosexuality, telling her gay boyfriend to resist temptation and thinks it’s appropriate to convert jewish people to christianity.
*cough*tumblr*cough*
You can just say “reddit atheists”, we all know that’s what you mean.
Your response is a case in point.
You are no more open-minded nor close-minded than the man you responded to. The OP was commenting that both Roz AND the church were in the wrong (not even going so far as to say all churches, just Joyce’s particular congregation), and both were being close minded. The fact that you immediately jumped to the defense of all churches with a none-to-surprising “holier than thou” spouting of anger means you just need to open your mind to more sides of the argument. The best way to understand your own viewpoint and defend it is to learn and understand what the other side is saying, not casting them down with rage and hellfire. If you can intelligently bring up their own points and debunk them, you’re on the fast track to being better able to defend your own perspective.
Please, think on it, and don’t let anger or passion guide all of your actions.
No, I gotta go with Roz on this one. It’s true, Joyce completely and utterly didn’t give a damn about how her entire belief system, how her entire structure of living, was hurting people, until it personally affected her. She can learn from that, but the truth is that it shouldn’t have taken her friend being hurt by evil for her to have spoken out against it. Roz is right – Joyce doesn’t get to be the hero today. And if Joyce wasn’t personally affected by it, she would STILL be part of a group which systematically oppresses people. Roz is being disruptive, sure, and can get kicked out of class. But she’s not wrong.
It shouldn’t have, except her best friend being hurt by that was the first clue that someone WAS being hurt by it.
Ah, teacher smackdowns. Such a refreshing sight to see.
not unlike a Rider Kick, right, my friend?
Yea, but we all know the track record of most female Riders.
Now you’ve got me thinking of Leslie and Robin as Kamen Rider W. Damm.
Roz does have a point but, really? Seems like she’s a bit of a grump today. Maybe she has low blood sugar.
Or she’s a lesbian herself!
or bi
Yep, we have video proof that she’s not a lesbian (unless she was faking it in the sex tape).
As much as I loathe Joe, I will admit if anyone could tell a woman was faking enjoying sex it would be him.
I’ve heard it’s possible for the ladies to expertly fake themselves getting to Happyville, but as far as the overall time together that would seem to me to be much harder to fake, esp with someone like Joe who’s well-versed in the ins-and-outs of the situation.
Robin asked her that and she specifically said no.
Didn’t specifically rule out bi or anything else, but certainly implied it wasn’t the case. (Attributed her “start kissing girls onstage” threat to Robin to just getting out of things, not attraction.)
This sets Roz apart from someone like Joe. As a character, Joe is extremely flat and nobody IRL is extremely flat. It makes you realize that something is going on inside is head that we don’t know. To be honest, I kinda agree with Roz but I would never say that out loud to someone like Joyce cause 1. I’m not a dickwad and 2. That’s the kind of thing you have to realize yourself like Joyce just did.
Joe is very similar to Walky in that he intentionally acts immature and superficial in attempt to “simplify” his life. They both have moments that show a lot of emotional depth and awareness. But otherwise the two of them put a lot of effort into avoiding sentimentality, in no small part due to their very traditional views on masculinity.
Oh, and I definitely agree that Roz does have a valid point underneath all of her hostility. But she’s putting it in the least helpful way possible and is an enormous jerkwad for acting like the gatekeeper to LGBT support.
I’m getting the impression what’s gotten Roz so upset (assuming it is indeed entirely about what’s happening here, and has nothing to do with what her time-bomb of a roommate is up to lately) is it looks like, to her, that Joyce is getting the spotlight (“I’m supposed to treat Miss Fundy like a goddamn hero?!”) that should belong to someone who actually deserves it. The disgust for Joyce’s disassociation with her upbringing’s collective sins seems to serve to cover up her less idealogical reasons…Ones that are very much beside the point for such serious issues… For this to upset her so much…
That’s my view exactly. They both put up a smokescreen to hide what’s going on upstairs, probably for different reasons.
or a bigot. 🙁
Agreed. Roz seems to be really emotionally angered by this discussion — maybe it’s personal for her, too.
At what point do compassion and feelings have to give way to cold hard truth, though?
Roz is right; until someone close to Joyce turned out to be one of the “other”, the nicest thing she would do for them is try to convert them. I’m tired of politicians and clergy and other religious people suddenly turn from a lifetime of discrimination just because one of their kids turns out to be gay. Hey, I was someone’s kid too, but you didn’t give a shit about me until it turned out you had a personal stake in it.
As much as I want to believe that people can change, and as much as I want to open my arms to the people who do, I’ve wanted to say what Roz has said in this strip many times, and I can’t help but get some satisfaction from seeing it.
“You changed your mind for the wrong reason!” seems like a really stupid thing to be mad at someone for. Everyone has their own reasons for realizing things. Are we really gonna sit here and rank these reasons as if you have the right to judge?
It is a stupid thing to be mad about, I know, and in the end, I’ll take as many allies as are willing, but I’m just not as quick to forgive as I should be, because it’s not easy to forgive it.
I don’t think it’s about changing her mind for the wrong reasons as it is about being a hypocrite. As I recall Joyce judged Roz in the past for the sex thing and she’s going to keep being judgmental until more people close to her cause her to change her mind overtime.
To be honest I sometimes feel that it takes a person turning into a hypocrite and confronting that hypocrisy before they develop as a person. Some of our decisions while growing tend to be rife with hypocrisy.
I feel it’s not about either. If you don’t examine your beliefs except when something occurs that happens to your friends, then you won’t examine nearly all of your beliefs.
Joyce has been fighting the moral requirement to question for some time. In fact, that struggle is arguably the ongoing theme of the comic as a whole.
That is also true. But it takes all kinds things to grow and not all things work the same for everyone.
This storyline is really doing a lot for the discussions. Lots of heated comments. 🙂
It seems like Heinous Acts wasn’t mad that politicians changed stance for the wrong reason, but that these politicians kept their old, personally harmful stance for decades, during which they perpetuated homophobia and enacted really hurtful laws. It would’ve been nice if they’d skipped all those decades in the middle and properly treated everyone like family from the get-go.
Since we don’t have a time machine, I’m happy to celebrate the late-bloomers, too. But Roz has a point — maybe not to Joyce, who is trying hard and learning, but to the powerful adults in Joyce’s life who really ought to know better.
Not so much, “you changed your mind for the wrong reason”, as “you are a selfish person who cannot be depended on to do the right thing unless it suits you personally”.
+1
Yes! Exactly my thoughts.
Pretty much my thoughts. The way Roz went about saying this was aggressive but she has a point and she’s not required to be nice to Joyce while calling her out on her hypocrisy. But because she went about it like she did in a classroom where order and a certain level of respect need to be maintained for the sake of the learning environment Leslie was justified in removing her.
God, this so much.
Challenging your previous views is not hypocrisy.
Damning the system for its transgressions without acknowledging that you’re part of the same system, however, is.
Noo, not at all. More like “You had no idea how this actually worked until it happened to someone close to you who confided in you”. Joyce isn’t selfish, there wasn’t anything selfish in her behaviour to date. She just didn’t understand, in this particular case, that she was harming people instead of helping them.
The problem with Roz’s outburst is that it doesn’t do any good at all. Joyce just learned something important, she is now capable of compassion where she didn’t previously have it, she is saying, out loud, that she is ANGRY at her church because of how it treats people, where previously she was certain the church was correct. Not the mark of a selfish person.
And what purpose is there to Roz shitting on that? Except to make her feel morally superior to Joyce, I guess. Bleh.
More like “You didn’t think about this till it affected someone you know personally”. Not thinking about your morals till you put them into practice is exactly why Joyce is having to readjust her morals right now.
Expecting people to have a fully functioning, real world tested sense of morality before they’ve even moved out from their parent’s roof for the first time is frankly ludicrous. We might as well criticize high schoolers for their lack of real world job experience.
I think people aren’t so upset at the message but how it was used. Roz is right but she’s kind of using the truth as a weapon to hurt Joyce. Even after Leslie’s warning. I don’t know who pissed in her Coco Puffs but being mean isn’t cool. But I guess it had to be said.
“I will make that hypocrisy hurt.” Frank Underwood/Roz
Robin. Robin pissed in her Coco Puffs.
Robin? Isn’t Mary Roz’ roommate? Mary is basically Joyce without the good intentions.
That’s a really good point actually! Mary might giving Roz a rather negative impression. That kind of sucks.
In the DoA universe robin isn’t awesome but rather a politician who makes stupid crap laws that are anti-LGBT. Kinda a dillema for leslie, no?
eh, based on what i could tell, Robin was the democratic equivalent of Sarah Palin politically. Both had/have no idea what they’re doing yet still gained popularity and political power
This isn’t Walkyverse Robin who just woke up in Congress one day. I’m pretty sure this Robin knows exactly what she’s doing; it’s just that what she’s doing is a cynical and hypocritical bid for personal gain at the expense of others. She even explained her evil master plan in this very classroom three weeks ago.
Leslie is awesome, but she has lousy taste in women.
somehow i mixed up the two robins in my head. i’m tired.
I can absolutely see Mary and Roz feeding off of each other, forming this wormhole of partisan hatred. They’re essentially the same person, deep down inside, but they have wildly different political views. The problem, of course, is that this person they both are is a selfish, heartless, hateful bongo.
When they see each other, they see horrible people, and then they use that as a generalization for each other’s entire affiliation, worsening the hatred they already have
Yes. However, comparing “uses the truth as a weapon” should still not be compared to “participates in ad perpetuates a culture of hate, shame and oppression”… the two are just not at the same level of evil
You’re right, you shouldn’t be comparing them. Evil is evil, don’t be evil. Opposing evil is NOT a justification for committing evil.
Statement: Opposing people who harm someone is not a justification for harming someone.
Implication: No police.
No armies.
No prisons
No punishments
No superheroes.
Correct! Welcome to libertarianism! Hope you enjoy your new-found freedom from the police state.
There’s a difference between being evil (see cartoon villains, Galasso) and just being a jerk for no reason. Mike, on the other hand, avoids both categories by being a jerk for a reason.
A++
No, they shouldn’t be compared, but what Roz is doing is something that could very well come across as “You weren’t accepting in the past, so I won’t let you be accepting now!” I’d rather expect that most people who were doubtful about being accepting of LGBT people in the past would be more inclined to drop all support they were about to give in the face of a statement like that.
Source: I used to not be accepting, am now, and had similar experiences. It took a lot of work to push through and continue to be accepting. That was years ago, but even now I still feel twinges of “Am I actually accepting enough?”
That’s really beside the point.
When someone who’s been insensitive finally starts getting a clue, it is really, really dumb to belabor the point anywhere near that harshly. Or at all, really.
This isn’t about forgiving Joyce for her ignorance. It’s about helping her overcome it.
Joyce could grow into a powerful bridge to the fundies back home. I understand. Roz’s frustration in the moment, but hopefully Roz will realize that this alienation is a dumb move for Roz’s bigger cause.
Oh, she will get serious blowback for trying that, which is why she needs all the support she can get. Not because she necessarily deserves it, but because it’s of strategic interest.
Yeah… I agree what Roz is doing is definitely the smartest thing to do, but I really understand where she’s coming from. Even though she’s not a lesbian or a trans girl, she has still been shamed for her sexuality, and by Joyce herself nonetheless, and she seems keenly aware of patriarcal oppression in general. It’s a good thing Leslie is here to moderate her and protect Joyce, but I can’t bring myself to blame an angry teenager for telling the truth to a clueless one, even if it is in this abrasive way.
Roz: doing her best to drive Joyce back into the arms of fundie-dom!
I makes her easier to discount that way.
There are plenty of religious people who weren’t discriminatory to begin with.
Just because the ones who are loudest are the ones who are bigots doesn’t mean that the rest are.
You’re not wrong, but that minority can’t be ignored. I don’t think that you are saying they should be, but I personally feel that comments saying, “we’re not all like that!” distract from the issue. I’m sure you didn’t mean it to do that, but such comments come across to me as needlessly defensive.
+1
It’s not a “we’re not all like that” comment, but it is defensive.
In this case, defending Joyce. Her alignment with religion does not automatically put her in the same catagory as those who kick gay kids out of the house.
Saying “Roz is right, but…” is doing more damage than good, because Roz ISN’T right. If you want to actually focus on the issue, focus on THE ISSUE, and don’t alienate people who would be your allies by putting them into the same catagory as your enemies.
True, but Joyce wasn’t really one of them. Homosexuality on par with lying? That was her view once.
True, but Joyce wasn’t really one of them. Homosexuality on par with lying? That was her view once.
But her Church is, and up until the latest turn of events, Joyce’s primary mode of operation has been blind obedience. And that’s a very harmful choice, and is really what Roz is angry about.
Let me put it this way–you think this is the first time some kid in Joyce’s church suddenly stopped attending and no one really talked about why, because it was too uncomfortable to explain that the kid was now living in a refrigerator carton in Indianapolis?
++++++++ “I was someone’s kid too, but you didn’t give a shit about me until it turned out you had a personal stake in it.” YESSSSS.
*claps*
I wouldn’t even say it’s the wrong reason. But, yeah, you were someone’s kid, too. Before politician X had a child who was homosexual, other people had stories to share that they would have been glad to share with politician X. There were lobbyists just for that effort, don’t you know.
The opportunities to get the same education on this topic, that politician X didn’t get until politician X’s own child became that education, existed and, in fact, were eager to avail themselves of politician X. Politician X wouldn’t have had to make much of an effort. In fact, Politician X would only have had to stop the effort to refuse such an education.
So, it’s not a bad reason… it’s just a late reason, a very late reason. Better than never, but still very late.
Problem is, we are quite good at filtering out information that runs contrary to our views. Very hard to filter out your own son or daughter, though – although some still manage.
That’s true. It’s very understandable how Politician X, Clergyperson Y, or even College Student Z could manage to filter this out.
However, understandable and acceptable aren’t the same thing.
On the last point, I agree completely. It’s just that I take a pragmatic view towards changing minds – we need to use tactics that work when the end result is so important to achieve (in my mind).
To be fair to Joyce though she’s hardly a politician or a clergy member. She’s an 18 year old kid raised by a pair of nutjobs IMO. I understand why Roz is hurt; I never came out to my father for fear of being tossed out. But turning on the more or less powerless Joyce is kicking a puppy for the actions of a dog, so to speak.
This can be boiled down to human nature. We are very resistant to ideas that run counter to our beliefs. We will automatically search for evidence that supports our beliefs, and automatically scrutinize evidence that runs counter to our beliefs. This is known as confirmation bias.
Yes, confirmation bias can be overcome, but not easily.
One suspects that Roz is less concerned about Joyce and more concerned about displaying her own ethical superiority.
not really, her outburst seems more emotional than satisfied: she’s angry at Joyce for holding such hurtful beliefs. But remember how she reacted when she got the impression Joyce had went through something terrible at the party? She immediately gave her contacts to seek help, while not asking any inconsiderate questions – a smart and compassionate thing to do.
You’re lucky you’re so pretty, otherwise I wouldn’t listen to you.
Seriously though, I guess you’re right. It’s just me who’s projecting my cynicism on these poor kids.
*joewagon cooly withdraws*
She’s not wrong. She’s just an asshole.
Pretty much
It’s like…she has a point, but she’s only bringing it up the exact second after Joyce gets the message.
Indeed, she’s not wrong, but her condescension is still, well, condescension.
In this situation, how is she any better than the faith-based support group for the homeless who turn away LGBT youths? Here we have Joyce coming to terms with how a lot of people who share her religion end up using it to treat people terribly, and instead of being supportive, she shuns Joyce away with a “you should’ve had your epithany sooner!”.
I’m not a fan of Roz here either, but I’m not sure “she’s just as bad as people who leave kids on the street for having a non-normative sexuality or gender!” is the best argument…?
Likewise, I remain to be convinced that Roz actually has a point.
For all that Joyce has had some weird perspectives, it’s pretty clear she’s never been on board with the “hate everybody different” side of religion.
No, she’s not on board with it. To Joyce, God is a loving entity. She’s been hit headfirst with the growing divide between what she has been taught is right and wrong, and what she personally believes.
Roz is being harsh, yes. I have the sinking feeling that she is not being nearly as harsh as what Joyce is hearing in her own head right now– or what David Willis heard in his, when he went through this crisis.
There’s a part of me that wonders if it’s less a personal interest that makes Joyce take this stance so much as a realization that faith-based charities don’t take a ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ approach to things (which has always been more Joyce’s style).
I think what’s been going on has been a part of Joyce’s gradual understanding that “love the sinner, hate the sin” (or “hate the sin, not the sinner” which is how I recall that usually being phrased) still involves hate, which is why it’s not really a good option for anyone who would call themselves a God-loving Christian.
True; my thought being more that a charity would still have a duty to care for the person, regardless of what they’d done, in Joyce’s view.
Reply Volkai: Well, actually, you do hate sin. God hates it. So mwah too.
Right now I think she’s focusing on Becky. Give her some time, and she may realize that “hate the sin, not the sinner” is nothing but a smokescreen to allow the “righteous” to feel good about hating people who aren’t like them.
You don’t need to agree with everything a person does in order to support them.
I see Roz’s point quite clearly, though she is being cruel to make it here and now. Truth is, the hard-hitting, god-hates-fags homophobes are getting rarer and more fringe. But there are a lot of people like Joyce out there who think homosexuality is a sin and gay people can be “fixed”. Let’s not forget that she is still in a relationship with a gay man she entered with the intent to do just that. People like Joyce aren’t out there committing hate crimes, but they do cause harm. She needs to realize this, and Roz may be ripping off the band-aid by doing it this way. Of course, that might backfire spectacularly.
Let’s not forget the gay boyfriend she’s trying to “fix” implied to her that he WANTS to be “fixed.” He’s as much a party to their relationship as Joyce is.
Although to be fair, it was a bit stronger than implying. It may never have been said strait out (PUN RECOGNITION FORBIDDEN), he got pretty close to saying “Joyce, I don’t want to be like this. Please fix me.”
Wasn’t she carrying Chick tracts?
Verb-tense difference there, that active discrimination is in the present for the “faith-based” organizations, but was only tangential for Joyce and us now in the past. Roz is not wrong for expressing what many are thinking, just expressing it in the wrong way.
Nuh-huh. Joyce was clearly on board with the “hate the sin, love the sinner train”… which is a terrible, hurtful train, even if if DOES allow you to give shelter to homeless teens of all orientations. Roz is too angry to be nice or even considerate here, but she is a 100% right
Roz’s reaction is… pretty much mine. I’m having a hard time sympathizing with Joyce given Ethan. >.> And I get that she’s learning and I appreciate that. I just don’t have the time or energy to deal with “hate the sin, love the sinner” because @&#% that nosie.
Joyce isn’t the only guilty party where Ethan is concerned. Remember that Ethan desperately wants to receive what Joyce wants to give. She’s providing a comfortable lie that he craves.
The thing is, Joyce hasn’t changed. She still feels the exact same way about every other issue she has been taught about, and if Becky suddenly stopped being gay, she would suddenly stop caring about that issue too.
This is purely a selfish lie that Joyce is telling herself, and therefore merits being called out.
Note: Joyce is still against pre-marital hanky panky. Apparently, she hasn’t realized that means that she is still against the active homosexual lifestyle.
Gay marriage is legal in Indiana, so she can both accept that people are gay and be against pre-marital sex without it being a contradiction.
Joyce has even explicitly acknowledged that.
I have a feeling that now the dam has burst, she’s not going to stop caring about homosexuality. Yes, she still has a long way to go for her other view points, but now that Leslie has pointed out the trouble the LGBT+ community has at the hands of the Church, and it has had it’s effect, I don’t think she’ll drop it any time soon, regardless of what happens next.
“active homosexual lifestyle”?
Seriously?
Didn’t you know? You’re not REALLY gay unless you’ve boned someone of the same sex. Your thoughts, feelings and emotional attachments to others don’t matter – it’s all about the BUTTSECKS. (Or pussysecks without dicks involved. Whichever. :p)
/sarcasticcuteanimal
Okay, I get that sex is part of the whole gay/lesbien/agender/longlistofothersexesandgenders thing, but do you REALLY have to go into details?
Im with Roz you dont award stupid people just because they happen to not be stupid once or even if they happen to stop being stupid all together
Useing stupid as a general word
Thing is, acting like Roz is here Does Not Help Anything. What you get here is not people realizing “oh I was being stupid and should stop being stupid”, you get people coming to the realization that someone who calls you stupid is mean, and you should ignore them no matter how right anything they say might be.
Nothing good comes of this!
Joyce isn’t stupid, she’s ignorant–a mushroom: she’s been kept in the dark and fed shit. When her environment changed she learned. But no props for ignorant kids who learn!! Chastise them for their former ignorance!! I hope you aren’t a professional teacher.
as a fomer kid who was kept in the dark but had a sharp eye i am in the perfect place to chastise her but people would deny me my right for thier own satisfaction
lol, holy shit
this person made joyce feel guilty, this is just as bad as people dying in the gutter for being queer
thank you
thaaaaaanks
I didn’t realize that anti-gay organizations are acting out of hurt or rage at having been deeply wronged by gays. I mean ACTUALLY wronged not “your very existence offends me”. Given who Roz is, it’s very likely she personally knows people who have been hurt by people like Joyce, if she hasn’t herself.
What the actual shit is wrong with you. Why would you think ‘person who is tactless to someone having a personal epiphany literally decades behind the rest of society, which is also pretty shit by the way’ is on the same level with ‘literally tearing families apart and costing lives.’
That was a horrible leap in logic.
Roz, while being harsh and its inappropriate to do this in a college classroom, is in the right. However, roz isn’t tossing Joyce out into the street! She’s saying “YOU were involved and had an ACTIVE voice in the very things you are now denouncing, you can’t separate yourself so easily”. That doesn’t make her some horrible person. It’s harsh, but its true.
Throwing that back in Joyce’s face solves nothing, though. She’s lucky that Joyce has Becky to fall back on: absent a real person with real suffering to pin this on, in the face of this kind of fairly direct attack most people I know would fall back and double down on their original position. It’s scary and uncomfortable feeling wrong and the easiest way to ease that discomfit is to revert to whichever position is most obviously “right”. And who would seem more right, with no Becky around? Her friends, her family, her pastor, her “ex-gay” boyfriend, or the rude person tearing her down in the middle of what was supposed to be a safe space?
While she’s not wrong it was also something that didn’t need to be said, Joyce had a just demonstrated that she understood, she realised what was important and what was horribly wrong. This was Roz kicking her while she was down for no reason other than to fee her own sense of arrogance. After all, if Roz cared so much why didn’t she make these exact points to Joyce weeks ago?
Ya know, Roz, this is kind of the strategy Fundies use to recruit? The whole “you a sinner, SHAME” spiel??
I wanna say
Whoa. Well put, Jen.
like, both sides, man *vapes*
Aww, man.
Roz is right. She IS. Joyce isn’t a hero.
But we’re ALL assholes, to some extent. Joyce comes from a more conservative background; that she is learning is all one can ask for. She’s not a monster, either. She’s a good person, ultimately.
Some of the awesomest trans* activists I know grew up self-loathing (At least one of them has a story about arguing against marriage). Some of us managed to dodge that bullet, but that was LUCK, not righteousness.
Also, the purpose of a call-out is to end the behavior that hurts others. Roz basically just calls someone out AFTER she realized the behaviour was harmful. Not terribly productive! Also, yelling at Dorothy is bullshit.
That said, I kind of empathize with Roz here. Joyce WAS the church up until yesterday, and of course she doesn’t realize that yet. Of course, she will, with due time. But she doesn’t yet.
argh why didn’t this post at the bottom? I DON’T UNDERSTAND HOW TO COMMENT ON THIS SITE!
It’s simple. To post at the bottom you use the comment box at the bottom. There’s only one comment box, so if you try to reply to a comment, it moves from the bottom and you’ll need to find it and click ‘Cancel reply’ (below ‘Comment’) to restore it to the bottom. If you want to reply instead, click ‘Reply’ where it appears between someone’s username and their comment. If you change your mind about replying, try to remember to click ‘Cancel reply’ so that the comment box doesn’t get lost.
I don’t appear to have a cancel reply button. Maybe my zoom is wrong or something. Thanks, though.
When you click ‘Reply’, and the comment box appears under the comment you want to reply to, there will be a red link below the big bold ‘Comment’ that says ‘Cancel reply’ (just above the ‘Name’ field). If you don’t see that link when you comment, you’re probably at the bottom of the comments page. If you’re not… then, that’s weird.
The thing about Dorothy is, Roz isn’t wrong. Dorothy HAS been enabling Joyce this whole time, and coddling Joyce *isn’t* helping her.
Joyce *doesn’t* deserve a standing slow clap for finally figuring out she’s been passively part of the problem. She needs to have that point driven into her thick ass skull while there’s a crack formed in her “Jesus loves me this I know” armor plating. Before she seals it back up and the truth just clangs off it again.
Was she more hostile then she should have been? Sure. But Joyce has been “La la la”ing so hard I can’t imagine anyone who hasn’t been part of her inner circle is willing to put up with her.
She’s probably just a less vicious Mary to everyone not a main character.
But no one is giving Joyce a standing ovation; no one is calling Joyce a hero. Roz is really just saying “oh, Joyce, you realize how much your brand of Christianity has harmed others? Instead of moving forward and doing good with that realization, or instead of being encouraged to make more realizations like that, how about you stew in all the negative things that you really had not choice in the matter of believing in, because you were literally never exposed to anything else.”
I was raised in really anti-gay places, and my dad was really anti-anything except straight and cis. But my turning point? It was during the whole Arther/ Buster Bunny show, where the guest star was a girl with two moms. And there was a whole huge “controversy” about them being on a kids show, and one of the moms on the new was like “I feel like they are saying I’m somehow inhuman” and my dad said a sarcastic “*somehow* inhuman?” And I was like, “You know what? She looks pretty human to me!” And then I got the sh*t beat out of me. But up until then, I had been told that gay people *were* wrong, and *were* less than human, and I literally had no gay people to compare this to and see if it was false. I had parents who I was supposed to be able to trust tell me this stuff. And my punishment for disagree was physical, compared to Joyce’s emotional, but punishment in the form of emotional estrangement from God is a very real thing for her. If you’re going to be an activist, you have to understand that people on “the other side” aren’t always evil and hellbent on “my way or the highway”; they literally think that being gay somehow brings the devil into our homes. They have been taught and conditioned this and in some cases had it beaten in to us, be it physically or emotionally. And a lot of people don’t get an “Aha” moment like I did. Joyce just had her aha moment, and slammed her down. Joyce is a strong character, but I have seen slammings like lead to suicide. Mental dissonance is not an easy thing to deal with, and Dorothy is doing good by being “an atheist, not an asshole,” as she put it, which, to Joyce, was something impossible up until a month ago in comic time. Roz is being the “evil scary liberal” that Joyce has been conditioned to fear.
I’m sure if Roz hadn’t piped up, someone would have started a slow clap. at least in here by now.
Roz is being a jerk yes. But Roz is also PISSED.
Maybe if Joyce hadn’t been.. you know.. trying to panky away the gay on Ethan, I’d be less on Roz’s side here. I’d be more “Damn, Joyce didn’t deserve to be hit over the head with that so hard Roz.”
But.. you know, she did do the thing. As hurtful as it is to hear.
There are times you can coddle people, and there are times when it’s useless to coddle them anymore, and force them to put on their big girl pants and wake the hell up to how they have been acting.
Because if you NEVER challenge them, if you’re supportive and nice and head patting and there-there’ing them *all* the time? There is a bigger chance that they never leave the basement of their belief structure, and just make excuses while never putting the work in to grow into a better person.
+
In this case, yeah, absolutely. Roz’s technique results in an embarrassed and scared Joyce who won’t readily risk opening up her mind to new ideas. For somebody interested in winning hearts and minds, Roz’s approach is pretty aggressive, abrasive, and unpleasant.
Plus one internets for you. Wherever will you keep them all?
Why doesn’t it matter? It completely matters. Joyce seriously needs to realize this and face it. She is still dating a gay guy with the sole purpose of changing his sexuality! If her best friend hadn’t come out to her, I bet her response to this reveal would have been “The church wants to rehabilitate those poor, misguided people? That’s so wonderful! I’m so glad those kids are getting the help they need!”. 24 hours ago she literally was the very church she is now decrying.
It’s going to hurt like hell, but she NEEDS to face this. Maybe this isn’t the right time, but Roz is doing the same thing Joyce just did- making an emotional outburst about something that clearly upset her. I’m actually quite annoyed that Joyce was allowed to disrupt the class like that, but Roz is being removed. Joyce just attacked an entire, major religion that other people in the class belong to. If she hadn’t been Christian, would she have been allowed to say that?
Why IS Joyce lauded for attacking people and disrupting the class, while Roz is in the wrong for it?
The difference in the situations is that Joyce is angry with “The Church” / specific Institutions that she is reacting to the information she’s just been given; she’s angry but not attacking anyone. Roz though is talking explicitly about Joyce and is attacking her earlier “lack of anger”.
Leslie said they are to talk about the material and not each other. Roz is only talking about Joyce and refuses to stop that’s why she is told to leave.
At least that’s hows I read it.
Yeah… I’m not sure Batman made this funny.
Oh, as much empathy as I and some others here have for Roz’s position, I agree that Leslie not only has the right to have her leave, she has the responsibility. Just because Joyce may have needed to hear this in some form, doesn’t mean she needed to hear it right now, in this setting.
Roz is rightfully pointing out that Joyce is divesting herself of responsibility. Joyce is saying the church shouldn’t, but ignoring the fact that she was part of that church and supported that church right up until it clashed with her life experience. Joyce is re-writing her personal history, failing to admit to her part in past social pressures and bigotry. She is a hypocrite.
In this instance, Joyce is the material. She is part of the problem.
In this specific instance Joyce is not the material as they were being taught about how some organizations threat LGBT+ youths. Joyce is not an organization or running one. Leslie also explicitly states that the students are not part of the material, at that point both Dorothy and Roz should not have continued talking about Joyce during the class.
The only thing I will say about who is right and wrong in this situation is this: Dorothy and Roz are wrong for continuing to talk about Joyce after Leslie explicitly says “We talk about the material not each other”.
Joyce expressed anger towards an institution, and was responded to with an attack on herself. allowing a classroom where a student is allowed to personally attack another student is pretty much the worst way to run a class, and Leslie is a better teacher then that.
No, she wasn’t. Bear in mind that while she is dating Ethan specifically to change him, this is change that he visibly seeks and help he encourages. Ethan doesn’t want to be gay and in doing so reinforces her naive belief that she’s helping him.
Joyce was “part of the church” until literally ANY alternative was offered to her.
I think it did need to be said. Even though she accepted Becky and she’s majorly conflicted about what she’s doing to Ethan, she has yet to recognize her complicity in the oppression she’s railing against. Joyce has actively participated in the oppression of queer people, and even if her attitudes and reactions are a byproduct of the belief system in which she was raised, until she recognizes that she is wrong, she won’t change. Not really.
But now there’s more to Ethan and Joyce than just the anti-gay thing. Ethan and Joyce have a sort of deal Joyce would have to break, which both Joyce and Ethan are worried about hurting him. So instead of giving Joyce a way out, Ethan currently has Joyce stuck trying to go both ways at once.
I don’t even think Roz is an asshole. I have been calling church-girl despicable since she started helping Ethan stay in the closet. Little Miss Judgmental deserves a public reaming for her behavior.
+1
“church-girl” has known literally nothing else for her entire life. it has been less than a month for her exposure to a larger world. shafting her for the opinions forced on her in childhood that she is finally realizing were wrong, at this point in time, is going to do more harm than good.
Roz is being a dick. You can be right and still be a dick. Don’t be a dick.
Agreed. This isn’t Reddit… or Imgur… so I won’t give you a “+1” but I do believe affirmation for your comment is the right choice. 😀
How can you enjoy this webcomic when you dislike the main character?
There really is no main character. Joyce, Walky, Amber, Ethan, Danny, Dorothy and several other people all have their own arcs.
Agreed. I don’t like Joyce, so I read for all of the other characters, who have just as much air time as she does.
Simple. You wait for the point when she breaks down due to reality contradicting her fundie beliefs. It gets closer and closer with strips like these.
Shrug, you can still like the comic while not caring much about Joyce’s ongoing deprogramming.
Other stuff I like:
Amazigirl
Walky and Sal’s friendship
Walky and Joyce bickering
Mike being Mike
Joe’s usually pretty amusing
Ruth and Billie in any context other than psychosexual suicide pact mode
It’s a pretty large strip, with a bunch of stuff going on, and Willis is pretty good about bouncing around the focus. I can roll my eyes at Joyce saying “hanky panky you, church!” while still enjoying the rest.
She’s been the focus lately but she really isn’t the main character. A lot of the interactions are about pointing out what a goob she is, too.
Just because you’re the same as someone else doesn’t magically make you, or them, any less of an asshole.
Yup, because when someone believes things that you feel are harmful, the lesson you want them to learn is that there is no point in ever changing those beliefs. Because you will never forgive them for what they used to believe. Because if they try and change their ways, try and stop being harmful and start being helpful they will gain no friends from it. All they’ll do is wind up hated by both sides of the issue where before they at least had a community they could belong to.
Really, is the lesson that when you find you’ve been believing something shitty that the best decision is to double down and keep holding to those beliefs because there can be no redemption the one you want people to learn?
Yeah. I understand Roz’s frustration, but she’s jumping down Joyce’s throat just as Joyce is finally getting it, and that’s a really stupid move for Roz’s bigger purpose. Winning human rights needs to be way more important than being the most righteous person in the room at a given moment, you know?
You’re right, Roz is putting her personal hurt feelings before Joyce’s growth. It’s not the smartest thing to do, but I get why a teenager might have a hard time keeping her temper under check when confronted whith unwittingly harmful ignorance such as Joyce. Thankfully, Leslie is here to bring balance and provide a safe learning environment, yay for Leslie! The world needs an almighty Leslie
This. This this this this this. Thank you Idris for writing what I was going to post but better.
I take it a different way, in that Roz is hammering in the “This is YOU.. not *just* the church. *YOU* were part of this, and you need to understand and own it and not just throw the blame at someone else to make yourself feel better.”
Joyce is learning.. but she’s STILL got her head up her ass and can’t see her own bullshit. And Roz is rightly sick and tired of people enabling people like joyce.
yeah. And obviously it can’t be easy to unlearn what was THE TRUTH for a lifetime. But she’s STILL DOING IT. Maybe it set her soul at ease to do the research and come to the conclusion that “probably being gay isn’t a sin” but it hurt Becky when she found out.
“Aren’t you glad you won’t be burning in hell because you’re not technically a sinner? I’m glad I wasn’t wrong about you being a good person Becky!”
“Yeah… thanks for that Joyce.. I’m glad I squeaked past the hellfire line and am still capable of being your friend, you ass.”
No.. I’m not had this talk.. nope not me. >.>”
Where is Rocketboy1313 saying there’s no point in trying to change her beliefs? Where is it saying that Roz doesn’t believe Joyce will ever change? Who says she’s never going to forgive her? IN THE MOMENT, she’s frustrated and very very angry at Joyce, who has taken eighteen years to realize that lgbt are oppressed by things she’s dogmatically believed. Have you never had a situation where you weren’t ready to forgive someone the very second they were remorseful?
didn’t tell her not to change. The dialogue indicates that she wants Joyce to take responsibility for the beliefs she adhered to and expounded.
Joyce has not owned up to shit. She continues her destructive behavior with Ethan, and her assistance of Becky should be lauded, but expected.
The last line is leading things that way, but she starts by discounting Joyce’s realization. And the context of the whole thing, starting in on her the moment she really starts showing that she’s changing her views?
This whole thing looks like someone who’s taking a dig at someone they don’t like when they’re vulnerable and easy to hit. And that’s just as likely to lead to an emotional rejection of that change as it is to hammer home any “truth” here.
Joyce “continues” her behavior with Ethan? You know her beliefs are changing THIS VERY MOMENT right? How would she have stopped doing the bad thing BEFORE realizing why it was bad exactly?
Joyce doesn’t believe people “deserve” to be made to suffer by other people. You disagree. That’s fair enough, but (weird as it is to say this) I’m with Joyce on this one.
Put her in the stocks!! Make her wear a scarlet F (for fundie)!!
Because that totally wasn’t overkill when the Christians used to do that.
Ethan wants to be in the closet, man. As far as she can tell, she’s doing him a favor. Heck, as far as HE can tell, she’s doing him a favor. Literally the only gay person she knew is supporting a belief given to her by people she loves and trusts.
It’s not a good situation, but it’s not like she’s the only person responsible and frankly reaming her out does nothing but give the a-hole reaming her out a few sparkling moments of holier-than-thou smugness.
Well she is the 2nd least voted for favorite in the polls. Right behind Mary.
I wonder, if we were to all vote again today, if Roz would unseat Mary.
They are barely in the comic. Popularity can be and often is a reflection of being visible to the audience.
Eh, Roz is kinda wrong, here. I mean, this is word-picking a bit, but an epiphany, by definition, is a major change in one’s personal views. But even ignoring that:
Someone moving towards your side is a good. It increases the good in the universe. In this case, it’s an increase in good without any downside at all. This is Roz freaking out because someone has started supporting her.
Now, Roz’s points aren’t incorrect, but the question is why saying them at this point in time is of any use to anyone.
I’m pretty sure Roz’s harsh words will act as a catalyst here: while Joyce is on the right path, hearing this probably forces her to confront all the stuff she yet HASN’T aknoledged is hurtful… such as her wishing to “cure” Ethan.
She’s already on that path.
She’s mincing about and doing the potty dance on the path. She’s not really MOVING down the path yet.
I dunno, stuff like standing up against your fundamentalist Christian parents on behalf of your atheist friend and openly accepting and supporting your recently outed homosexual friend qualify as a few steps in my book.
She’s not really doing much to try and cure him, though. If anything, Joyce clings to Ethan because he’s safe, not because he’s a religious conversion project. Joyce is still working through her trauma, and whacking her upside the head with a bunch of angry rhetoric really isn’t helping her.
If she wasn’t a powder keg of trauma concerning male sexual attention, that point would have a bigger meaning.
While she’s not actively trying to panky away his gay, that’s because she’s not able to get near hankyland without having a panic attack.
Kinda throws a wrench into anything she would have done with Ethan (if she even WOULD have gotten with Ethan) without the trauma steering her into his snuggly gay arms.
Or, if Becky didn’t exist to balance Joyce’s beliefs (and Roz doesn’t know about Becky) it could shatter her confidence in her new worldview and make her retreat into herself to rationalize, which is what most real people do when they’re challenged. Nobody likes being wrong. Being declared wrong for failing to have found the correct answer quickly enough for an arbitrary and cruel judge even less so.
Roz is rightfully pointing out that Joyce is divesting herself of responsibility. Joyce is saying the church shouldn’t, but ignoring the fact that she was part of that church and supported that church right up until it clashed with her life experience. Joyce is re-writing her personal history, failing to admit to her part in past social pressures and bigotry. She is a hypocrite.
Fuck it, let’s go bowling.
Your comment is better with the verbs reversed. “Bowl it, let’s go fucking.” See?
Lesbian fucking, it’s less messy.
OVER THE LINE!!! I’m sorry Roz, you were over the line. That’s a foul.
Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man…
what the fuck roz
The truth is the fuck
Using the truth to make someone else feel horrible despite already having learned the necessary lesson to make oneself feel smug and superior is the fuck.
indeed
^^^
>despite already having learned the necessary lesson
Debatable. She has just decided that she is angry at anything that hurts her friend. No major views have truly been altered here.
Look, you know why people in cities tend to be liberal? It’s not because cities are inherently better. It’s because they are exposed to people who are different than them and come to realize that the commonalities outweigh the differences. Joyce is learning that right now before our eyes. Getting pissed that she’s not doing it fast enough or that she shares some beliefs with whatever Christian pissed in your cereal one to many times doesn’t make you any more right than she is. Is just makes you look like you’re carrying a lot of bitterness, justified or not.
Agreed.
Really? You can’t just give Joyce a little time to adjust? Seriousy, it’s like you want her to change her views overnight. Scientist don’t even do that! Scientists still take time to change their minds, and they do it only after multiple tests of their preconceived notions. Now don’t get me wrong, Scientists do change their minds when they are wrong. But you can’t expect a christian girl trained not to even consider these ideas to change her mind faster than someone who has trained him or her self to evaluate the data and draw conclusions from the data itself, even if it requires a change in mindset.
Seconded. For Joyce, her Bible was valid data and a life philosophy. Her philosophy is changing to “My friends matter more than my beliefs,” whether that’s defending Dorothy or standing up for Becky — but she won’t change overnight.
That even assumes that scientists won’t act like humans. We’re not quite as objective as we’d like to think.
No, but of all societal groups, scientists most require that level of objectiveness, and the ones who would be most often confronted with the data which requires them to change their opinions.
Also, if Scientists take longer while acting like humans, and Joyce is STILL within the expected time-frame for scientists not acting like humans, then I’d say that’s even stronger of a point.
The truth hurts especially if you use it like a baseball bat.
This quote deserves to be on t-shirts around the world.
I want that T-shirt. Someone put it on Cafepress… NOW!
If Willis were to do this, he could either have Sarah wielding her bat, or Roz wielding a bat like Sarah.
And now I’m seeing Roz, holding a bat that’s been carved to look like Sarah, and it is glorious.
But its a bat that only hurts those who know the truth. Those who are in denial feel nothing. So its a weapon that only hurts the very people you don’t want to hurt.
But its less effective than an actual bat. Viz:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/bat/
A la a clue-by-four? 😉
+1 for pun ^_^
Pleas good Plasma, make this a t-shirt!!!
Unfortunately I’m not in the printed T-shirt business.
All it takes is a little bit of money and your own design. I know a student who had T-shirts made for everyone in our O-chem class willing to pay for one. Wasn’t too expensive, actually.
…Or no money if it’s someone else asking you to do it. In fact, it’s an easy way to earn money if the design is popular (and if creating the design is easy, I guess), now that everyone can use RedBubble or CafePress or whatever. Hell, Spencer’s has a one-off slogan shirt printer app you can use right on their site if you want something quick and dirty.
GEEZ
LOUISE
This might have had more impact if we had seen how Joyce acted in the past 4 weeks. Like was she just passive? Or did she try and ‘splain the church’s motivations?
We pretty much *have* seen how she’s been acting. Not in the class, no, but can you really picture Joyce *not* acting like, well, Joyce?
last I checked the actions of someone in reality and the way they expressed those opinions in a classroom were not necessarily the same.
If you want to see how Joyce acted, you could try reading the archives…
I meant specifically this classroom, shouldda been more clear.
Roz, having liberal opinions doesn’t give you the right to be a bongo.
She’s like the liberal counterpart of Mary.
Oh my god, that’s exactly what she is.
Mary x Roz would be like matter + antimatter = THE UNIVERSE A SPLODE
Which is why they’re roommates.
I sense a slipshine hatefuck a brewin.
This is very true, I think; both Roz and Mary are absolutely sure that they know everything, that their opinions are perfect and unassailably correct, that they’ve earned that high horse they climbed up on. They are equally wrong about those things.
Roz’s opinions are better opinions, but they don’t make her less full of knee-jerk hate and spite.
That sure is some comfy self-righteousness, eh Roz? Keep rubbing that salt. Maybe add some lemon juice.
Maybe Roz is one of those hardcore SJW types people keep mentioning in various places on the net.
She is the one of the very few who are actually not likable people.
unironic use of sjw has cropped up
mother of god
I know a lot of SJ people on tumblr. That is one of the reasons I am there so much now. Hell, my tumblr has a pretty fair bit of SJ on it (lots of cats and computers and anime too, but that’s beside the point).
SJ and SJW’s are somewhat different things. For starters, one has a W. That’s too many W’s.
I could totally see her as running a social justice tumblr.
…Are you saying that social justice is a *bad* thing?
Well, I’ve seen some using it entirely as a way to win arguments, feel righteous about themselves, and pour out all the hatred and negativity inside them onto acceptable targets. Which, IMO, is both bad and very very human.
Breaking out of the cycle of hating and “othering” entirely is, still IMO, a lot harder. Most people aren’t really interested.
Tumblr Social Justice was screaming about “Tall Privilege” so YES tumblr brand social justice is /terrible/
…yeah, it sounds more like you saw a joke post and thought it was serious.
Huh. I don’t know anything about tumblr. I’m familiar with fighting for actual social justice in the real world. Looks like social justice means something really really different on the Internets, huh.
It really is. Because actually doing something about it is hard, but being smug about it on the internet is both easy and satisfying.
depends on what part of tumblr you are on. Virtually all the people I know there are pro-SJ, some are more vocal than others, of course. But all are good people. Yeah there are some parts that overreact, and act badly, but it is hardly universal.
Oh, sorries. Ignore my rant below. Obviously I was speaking of internet speak “social justice”, rather than that which encompasses irl events, political lobbying, etc
Yeah, and a bunch of over-eager actvists on the internet are a LOT more harmful than US senators that can talk about “legitimate rape”
I have no idea where you got that from what I said.
Stepping on a tack isn’t nullified by the fact that somebody else broke their foot. And if you stepped on the tack, guess which is in your mind?
Bad things that are worse don’t cancel out lesser bad things. It just means there a greater net total of bad things.
Social Justice Warriors, or SJW’s, is generally used to refer to the sorts of people who spend more time shaming and attacking easy targets then actually doing something meaningful to contribute to actual change. Like, reblogging something somebody disagreed with and telling all your friends to spam their blog telling them to kill themselves. On the extreme end, this has resulted in folks who doxx somebody for having a blog they disagree with then inundate said doxx’d person with actual death threats.
Like many terms on the internet, it gets overused to the point where it’s applied where it is entirely invalid, but that’s where the term came from and how it differentiates between people with an actual interest in social justice.
well actually I hate to be that guy but there are certain advantages to being a tall dude. you are more likely to be a CEO, more likely to get a date, etc. etc. I mean I’m a 5′ 4″ girl so I’m not to sure on the details, but my boyfriend is 6′ 5″ and he’s mentioned multiple times how much he gets treated differently (positively) due to being tall.
The social justice movement has a lot of great ideas, but too often does its modus operandi look like Roz’s here. I realise that not everybody who’s into SJ is like this, but there are enough that the whole movement’s been painted with that brush. And that’s unfair, but I’m not sure that people acting like Roz are coincidental. Even the term itself: it’s “social justice” as in criminal “justice”. And justice demands people be punished for their wrongdoings, even if it helps the cause not at all on a practical level. IMO, the whole thing should be about educating, providing opportunities and support – raising everybody up, rather than trying to tear down the people at the top of the social pyramid. And I’ve seen too many people chewed out for their ignorance, too many people brutally harassed, too many people have their opinions totally dismissed for me to believe that the social justice movement isn’t about bringing people down.
guess which is (a LOT) easier, though?
Actually… no. “Justice” does not demand punishment for wrongdoings, it demands redress for wrongdoings–it demands making things right. Lifting every one up is a lovely sentiment, but it requires resources, effort, patience and time. And it requires these things from the people who have the most to spare–those ‘on the top of the pyramid’. There’s far too many folks who take the attitude that once you make active discrimination illegal, we should instantly be in a post-racist, post-sexist, etc. society. It doesn’t work like that, though. The acknowledgement of wrongdoing–that’s the first, tiny, baby step towards actually solving the problem.
Social justice (which has a couple of completely unrelated definitions, but never mind) is a good things.
Some of the people who advocate for social justice are assholes, just as with everything else. Well-intentioned fanatics and purists (“extremism in the pursuit of virtue is no vice”), or people who enjoy feeling superior to other people, or other types.
Whether SJ issues are more attractive of such assholes than knitting, say, I don’t know; I hear knitting sites can have some pretty hot flamewars.
OK. So what do we know about Roz? She actively participates in planned parenthood and distributes free condoms to her peers, (in a dignified costume no less). When she learned that the girl who slut-shamed her had had a hard time at her party, she immediately came to her and offered the smartest kind of help possible: contacts for counselling. Without asking any questions. She is an angry teen so she snapped at Joyce’s small step forward, that’s uncool. IMO, she’s a useful activist that puts her effort and time where her mouth is, and here she lost her temper.
And I’d like to add that people who take this as an occasion to laugh at “SJW” really don’t seem to have their priorities straight: really, you think people who are over-eager to denounce a crooked system are the ones your mockery should be targeting? THIS is what is worthy of your scorn? Not, like, the rich old white dudes running your country, trying to ban abortion, and fighting to protect laws that make it LEGAL to murder a trans woman?
Wait WHAT? That last thing is actually a THING? HOW? PLEASE tell me it’s just a loophole!
… First I find out the Daily Show is ending, now THIS?!?! GAD! PEOPLE, DO WE HAVE NO SENSE!!!!!
All hail is starting to come back to the surface. All brace your shores.
THE DAILY SHOW IS ENDING!?
I KNOW!!! It’s like “Where am I going to get my news now?” I sure as frell can’t turn to CNN or FOX because neither of them have journalistic standards. My options become British Broadcasting and PBS. Worst part is – when I feel morally ill from a news event, no one is going to help make me feel better right after and/or during the delivery. 🙁
I’m going to need some sort of evidence to even remotely believe this… as far as I know murder is murder regardless of the sexual orientation, gender, etc… of the person murdered…
It’s the trans panic defense. It basically goes “I was so freaked out when i found out she was trans that i killed her.” It’s a legal defense in many states and because of it many people get away with killing trans people.
Is that last thing referring to the “gay/trans panic defense”? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense
California explicitly banned that as a legit defense this fall: http://www.advocate.com/crime/2014/09/29/california-becomes-first-state-ban-gay-trans-panic-defenses
Yeah… the fact that this kind of defense even came to exist and be accepted by judges is horrifying
I also had never heard of this. I agree… that is horrifying…
…that’s horrifying. I had no idea.
When did Joyce slut-shame Roz? Can you point me to this strip?
I’d say I don’t like Roz but she hasn’t really had the screen time for me to care….still she could probably shut up a little.
Technically right? Yeah. Quick way to burn bridges and inoculate someone against listening to you? Hell yeah.
Rude, but correct. I like to see Joyce changing some of her terrible attitudes, even if Roz turns it into a sort-of verbal beatdown
Roz won’t teach anything to Joyce. She waited until after Joyce had got the message to even mention anything on the subject. This is just Roz, again, pulling her arrogant ‘I know everything I need to about this class already’ crap. Only this time instead of arguing with the teacher she’s harassing another student.
Another student that she led to an event that resulted in an emotionally scarring experience and was completely ignorant of what transpired until the next day despite being there and writing it off as some buzz kill moment of the party prior to finding out the involved parties. And seeming to have forgotten that now.
Yep. Roz invited Joyce to that party so that she could “learn something,” and now she’s complaining about Dorothy staying silent and letting ignorance continue. Maybe your teaching methods aren’t the best, Roz. Let Leslie take care of it.
Actually, Roz invited Dorothy and Dorothy “invited” Joyce (really, Joyce invited herself and Dorothy went along with it). The first time Roz heard of it was when Dorothy explained why drunk Billie was hanging on her.
Why has anyone forgotten that Roz’s FIRST reaction when she learned that Joyce had been through “something” was to offer counseling contacts without further asking any questions? And this was AFTER Joyce had slut-shamed her because her “flower” had no petals left… When Roz first talked about “a fight” she had no idea what had happened, or how Joyce was concerned. Sure she’s harsh, but she’s not as mean as you paint her.
Neither is Joyce. As for shaming someone over their chosen lifestyle, Roz was perfectly happy to do that right back at Joyce in this comic. She has no moral high ground here. At best she can say she is as bad as Joyce on the opposite end of the spectrum. Personally, and perhaps due to the fact that we’ve seen evidence that Joyce at least is evolving out of what Roz is complaining about her being…I think Joyce is much better than Roz. As a character and as a person.
So basically, Joyce improving is going to be met with more critique of how she used to be and no encouragement for the person she could be in the future? No. Just no. That would be the most effective way of stopping progress before it’s even started.
…and now I’m lost…
I’m not. I’ve had the day Leslie’s having. Being a teacher in that situation (or similar) sucks.
Unless that isn’t what you meant, in which case nevermind.
That helps a little bit at least.
Yeah, I’ve been a student in this class. It is just as awkward as it seems.
Lost? Have you tried Hare Krishna?
MUPPETS MOVIE FTW
Some painful self-righteousness from someone who honestly has a lot of growing to do themselves.
And to how many people in need has Roz offered shelter?
Well, I’m pretty sure she lets a ton on people in her room on a daily basis.
Heh. I said “need,” not “want.”
But Mary lives there, so I wouldn’t call that ‘shelter’.
I’m betting it’s zero. I also ‘enjoy’ how she assumed that Joyce has personally denied LGBT people respect and shelter. Considering that both times an LGBT person has come to Joyce requesting help, she’s unstintingly and unhesitatingly given it the best she could, I’d actually say that ‘the church’ was never her.
Not that Roz cares about facts or context, when there’s a way to pat herself on the back for being so very openminded.
I could be remembering wrong, but I’m also pretty sure the only time those two have argued before, it had nothing to do with gender issues but rather about pre-marital sex. All of Joyce’s dealings with Bi and Lesbian type stuff have been happening when Roz hasn’t been around.
Had this been the topic they’d had the huge fight about, it might make some sense. But this feels more like Roz is using Joyce being devout and a little fundie in order to assume that she has all of the worst traits fundamentalists tend to have.
That is exactly what she’s doing, I think. So are some of the folks on this list.
Is it possible that Roz might have heard the loud argument with Amber in the busy cafeteria about Joyce trying to ‘cure’ Ethan? Because that wouldn’t scream respectful or helpful.
Lemme ask you this:
Given how Becky’s parents reacted, how often do you think that a teenager or young adult was just ‘disappeared’ from their church, and their peers were simply encouraged to never even try to contact them again? I’m willing to bet it’s more than once every ten years, which means it’s very likely that at least one other ‘friend’ of Joyce’s IS living on the street, and Joyce never questioned it.
you don’t have to specifically offer shelter to criticize a group for denying it to others, not to mention she might not have the means to do that (especially not now, living in a college dorm). roz has clearly shown herself to be dedicated to social activism and has proven it in other ways.
Roz works for planned parenthood, distributes condoms to her peers. Discreetly offered the girl who openly shamed her for sleeping around some helpful counselling contacts when she realised she might need them.
Major harshness, Roz.
And to Dorothy as well? Cripes.
Roz: I fucking feel you.
As wonderful as it is that Joyce is growing as a person, it’s not some astounding development for everyone else. Joyce’s battle with her prejudices are hers alone, and is ultimately meaningless in the face of the horror that countless youths have faced for years.
Roz is being an asshole, but she’s right, in a way.
No, she would have been right a few days ago, this is her being a bongo for the sake of being a bongo.
Of course not. But the teacher’s point was that Roz should have left Joyce alone, rather than harassing her in the middle of class.
As wonderful as it is that this illiterate woman has learned to read, it’s not some astounding development for anyone else. Her battle with her ignorance is hers alone, and is ultimately meaningless in the fact of the illiteracy that countless humans have faced for years.
A success is a success IMO, and never meaningless. When someone rises above what life has tried to give them it’s a good thing whether or not what they’ve done is commonplace.
(I should note, not a personal attack. A parallel. It just occurred to me that that is not clear. All apologies.)
It’s not meaningless to Joyce. It’s vitally important to her, and how she will view the world and the people around her. But it’s unimportant to the rest of the class, let alone Roz, who’s had to hear from her how enjoying sex has defiled her soul, and has actively held these views for years now. Why should Roz be happy that, finally, Joyce has seen the light? Why should Joyce even have to learn in the first place?
Because Joyce had parents.
Heck, the idea that the epiphany might be a common one is even more valuable here. After all, this may be a basic, simple observation that a lot of people for a variety of reasons have already gotten.
But this is Gender Studies 101. This is, in fact, the proper place to go over the basic facts. This is the place to have the common epiphanies if you have not already had them. Hell, I would not be surprised to find out that Leslie gets a lot of enjoyment out of teaching this class because this is the best place for her to get people to understand what it’s like and to change things for the better.
hmhmh… an illiterate woman is not (even unwillingly) part of a powerful machine that discriminates, humiliates and alienates minorities, directly and indirectly driving them to severe depression, homelessness and even suicide. However pure at heart, this is what Joyce has been doing for years: being an unknowing part of a vicious and powerful ideological machine. Sure she probably scarcely said anything mean, but we did see her tell Ethan and Mike that homosexuality is a sin, which is a truly harmful stance
Thing is, the only person talking about Joyce being a hero is Roz. No one was asking her to shower praise on Joyce. Everyone would probably have ignored Joyce’s outburst just as they ignore Joe, but *Roz* chose to make a big thing out of it.
true
I don’t know about ignoring. I assume the class has long since learned to ignore anything coming out of Joe, but Joyce attacking the church would certainly draw attention.
Roz vs. Joe in “The biggest asshat” contest! This Sunday, only on the Dumbing of Age Network for 9.99!
Will Mike step up to the plate to defend his title?
He’s already full from the Satan thing.
Joe just wants to get laid without dealing with deep emotional feelings. Roz acti8vely looks down and insults anyone who doesn’t agree with her, isn’t on her level or thinks they know better than her.
i’d like to point out that while Roz was totally in the wrong, she DID point out something Joyce didn’t realize. Joyce was the church, and while she realized the church was wrong, if Roz didn’t speak up she would’ve stayed as self-righteous as before.
Yes: her harsh words will probably act as a catalyst to Joyce’s growth, not an obstacle
Not sure whether to reply with something serious, or just say I LOVE IT MAGGLE!
Pfft, minor leagues. The real contenders are Ryan, Blaine, and someone who is allegedly a parent of Becky.
I’m going to be honest, I think I actually agree with Roz, here. I mean, it’s nice that she had that epiphany and all, but it’s not like anyone should be praising Joyce for deciding to treat a subset of people with respect, finally.
She has a point, sure, but Christ, there are ways of phrasing it that don’t make you a monumental asshole. For example, keeping it to yourself.
I don’t think Joyce ever actively disrespected people, the way Mary does.
Joyce openly slut-shamed Roz befcause of her damaged “flower”, and was perfectly happy telling Mike that homosexuality is a (hateful) sin. Now THAT’s disrespect, even if she did not know it
Good point. Perhaps I need to re-read the whole comic, I tend to forget stuff.
But no one needs to praise Joyce. They need to not kick her while she’s waking up.
Exactly. Roz isn’t making some great moral point, she’s making Joyce feel bad AFTER Joyce has already learned the lesson.
Yeah, but Joyce never asked to be praised for her epiphany. Where is Roz getting the idea that Joyce wants to be treated like a hero?
Because Joyce said something that Roz would feel heroic saying as an iconoclast. Roz frames Joyce’s behaviors in terms of her own actions and decides that what Joyce said was heroic but that she is not in fact a hero. In a way Roz is defending her brand.
Thank you! This was confusing me immensely. That does explain Roz’s behavior. Her motivations are different.
This is a really good point
Well called.
well put
Joyce didnt ask for praise and no one asked for her to be praised. It’s a classroom. She was learning and reacting to new information like a normal student.
A classroom is also not the place for Roz to mock two of her fellow students and cause a scene with personal attacks. I’ve gone to school with people who annoyed me and managed to keep it out of the classroom quite fine.
That’s true, Roz is not making this classroom a safe learning place, even if her reaction is perfectly justified. Leslie to the rescue!! (I want to see more Leslie. she makes everything feel safer in this comic)
This. Roz is right, Leslie is doing what is right. Two separate things.
Also, about ninety percent of the defense of Joyce I’ve been seeing in this thread really could be said about Roz’s outburst, as well. She’s just as much a product of her own homelife as Joyce is, and we’ve seen enough to have some idea of what’s driving her.
That certainly isn’t something to praise Joyce for.
What Joyce deserves respect and praise for is reevaluating her beliefs after she gained new insight and knowledge about the consequences of the beliefs she held.
As a college professor myself, I have to agree with this. In my view, college is where you learn who you are. Roz (and to a more quiet extent Joe) will have wasted their four years if they walk out as the exact same person they walked in as.
Except that she continues to try to avoid doing that. Instead, she spends up all night looking for a suitable re-interpretation of the Bible that will carve out a Becky Exemption while still making it totes okay to continue attempting to ‘convert’ Ethan.
Except her exception does clearly apply to Ethan, since she decided homosexuality wasn’t really a sin. We really haven’t seen how that is going to play out yet.
This has already been a process for Joyce. Her attitudes have already changed based on her interactions with Ethan. I doubt this is the end of the changes.
But that’s still it–it’s a pattern with Joyce’s judgements.
“I like this person. This person does something I’ve been taught (and have been telling others) is wrong. Since I like this person, my teachings must be wrong up to the limit necessary to make it okay for me to continue to associate with them.”
So Ethan got a Friendship Exemption. Dorothy got one, and now Becky’s gotten one.
When she stops issuing exemptions, and starts questioning the need for them, THEN I’ll be impressed with Joyce’s growth. Until then, she’s a good person causing a lot of unintentional pain.
Most people don’t reach a sudden epiphany in an entirely different direction after a lifetime of thinking otherwise. Cognitive dissonance does not lead to change so simply, and sometimes not at all.
I agree with her as well. Hell, I’ve *been* her in situations similar to this.
im sorry my eyes could not get past panel 2
Sooooo, how long ’til the class bursts into chaos?
Roz has a point, I’ll admit. And remember what platform her sister’s been elected on – she’s probably gone through some crap up to this point. Phrasing, though? Honey, you’re just bringing Joyce ever closer to her inevitable total breakdown.
Er, not phrasing. Timing. Man I am tired.
By this point, I think it has burst into chaos.
And, I would guess, have been watching a lot of Archer?
Actually, no, never. Why do you ask? (Genuinely curious, I’ve heard a lot of good things about that show.)
There’s a lot of running gags in the show. One is Archer shouting ‘Phrasing’ after almost any double-entendre–in amusement in most cases, in anger when it is about his mom, whose ongoing sexual exploits are a never-ending source of discomfort (ranging all the way up to disgust at times).
Aaah, I see. Thanks.
Actually, I’m pretty sure phrasing and timing have a part in this.
Good point. Roz is saying this in a really assholish way (which, you know, given her roommate’s Mary and she knows Joyce and Mary are at least church acquaintances, I can see where she might suspect Joyce is an asshole too), riiiiight as Joyce is about to crack.
Not good class behavior either way. But since Roz has definitely been dealing with Mary and probably Robin, and since I suspect she may be bisexual or biromantic (or at least hasn’t ruled out the possibility she might be yet), I can see why she’s just about done with religion in general. Dick move on her part, but she doesn’t know Joyce very well and there’s only so much shaming you can take before you lash out. She shouldn’t be generalizing, but I can potentially see why.
*plays The Eurythmics’ “Missionary Man” on the Muzak*
When will people learn that acting like this only serves to A. reinforce ‘angry activist’ stereotypes, and B. drive away potential allies?
In my experience, such people do not value or respect allies at all, except as a screen of “plausible deniability” which allows those who are part of the group, but not yet ready to come out about it, to avoid being identified. “Allies”, they declare, do not contribute anything else to the cause and should not be otherwise acknowledged or included.
That’s a little rough. They do appreciate allies but it’s hard when members of the community have their experiences discounted in favor of allies’ stories.
Wow, I’m surprised by these first few comments. I thought for sure it would be one big Roz cheering squad. I’m guessing it’s not the message, but rather the delivery that has people disliking her?
(I happen to be against message and delivery, but I doubt I’ll be going down that road in this comment section.) 😉
Roz talks the talk, but Joyce walks the walk.
We have no evidence of Roz not walking the walk. I’d say Roz is walking the walk plenty tbh.
Considering how proactive she is with her views on sexual education, it makes sense to think she’s probably similarly proactive with her other views.
Though, I hope she doesn’t chew people out like this when they successfully learn something about birth control. That’d be counterproductive
Well, except when Roz realizes that a scared and vulnerable peer has had an undefined bad experience at a party, and proceeds to give that peer the best advice she’s received from anyone, including all of her well-meaning friends, despite the fact that said peer slut-shamed Roz promptly after meeting her.
It is likely the combination of the facts that:
a) She is being an asshole. She is harassing Joyce for changing her views – she didn’t ask to be praised, she didn’t want to be seen as a hero. ROZ wants to be seen as a hero for preaching equality so she thinks Joyce does too now and she JUMPS on the opportunity to tear Joyce down for having different views before so that people won’t view her as favourably as someone who was always on the equality train.
b) She’s acting as if it is Dorothy’s job to forcibly change Joyce’s views to be the same as her own, to be ‘better’ than her current ones, which would not really be any different from when Joyce walked in and told off Joe for his premarital hanky-panky – it would be forcing your views on someone else still, but apparently that’s okay if it is your side forcing the views on others? Um, no, Roz is a hypocrite.
c) Worst of all, she is condemning Joyce for actions that she was never a part of personally as if she went out of her way regularly to throw LGBTA people out on the streets while Joyce is actually more of a ‘hate the sin, love the sinner’ kind of person.
I agree with the UNDERLYING message that you aren’t a magical new person for a small epiphany, but that isn’t something you say to someone because it makes you an asshole that is bringing them down when they were actually growing and literally every other part of her message is completely wrong – it’s not wrong to change your mind because your situation has changed multiple times, it is wrong to force your views on someone else regardless of what they are about with few exceptions (children need you to override them with a ‘no, that’s wrong’ sometimes for instance, though you should also tell them why you think so instead of just shutting them down obviously), and no, you should not condemn individuals for the acts of other individuals as if they were actually aware of what those other individuals were doing before.
Yes. This. This exactly. Thank you.
We are an… interesting lot here.
Mike being an asshole? “Hilarious!”
Roz being an asshole? “Boo!”
Good point.
Trying painfully sexist and shitty. Those adjectives are much more accurate.
Hahahahahahaaaaaaa.
ROZ! ROZ! ROZ! ROZ! WOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
Seriously though, this is EXACTLY what Joyce needs right now. No pandering, no bullshit, just a straight-up confirmation that she isn’t nearly as nice or compassionate as she likes to think she is. This might even lead to the fabled Joyce breakdown that so many of us have been waiting for. One can only hope! 😀
Uh, no? This is Roz being a spiteful and vindictive asshole towards someone who has clearly just experienced a paradigm shift on her entire worldview.
What Joyce needs is support and calm, not someone directly accusing her of oppression through ignorance in the most hurtful way possible, regardless of how much of a point they have.
maybe she could use a bit of both
Joyce has had this coming for a LONG time now. I’m sick and tired of commenters here praising her *~compassion~* and *~selflessness~* when she’s been a judgmental, hypocritical asshole since day one. This is something she NEEDS to hear, no matter what form she hears it in. It’s plain and simple.
Joyce is naive and sheltered.
That bongo who’s going to rat on Ruth and Billie – THAT’S the judgmental, hypocritical asshole of this story.
As someone who once was a sheltered, naive Christian, I know what I’m talking about. I happen to be an expert on this subject.
But people here are so rarely willing to call Joyce on her bullshit. I keep hearing “oh no, you don’t understand, she’s GOING to become a good character thereby we can excuse everything she does now!” in a way that no one seems to extend to oh, let’s say, Danny.
Joyce IS a good person.
A bad person wouldn’t have allowed herself to be open to these possibilities. A bad person doesn’t allow the idea that they’re not the hero of their own story to enter their mind – Joyce is slowly getting that beaten into her head. She’s a good person, she’s simply been given a bad instruction book at such an early age that she has had, until this comic began, no other rubric by which to compare it.
Having been through what she’s going through, I’m inclined to cut her some slack.
What makes Joyce a good character is that she tries to do what she feels is right. Her intent matters. What also matters is that several times she’s sided with being kind, loyal, and loving over some of the beliefs she’s grown up with.
Is Joyce a deeply flawed character? Yes. Does she out of ignorance say terrible things? Yes. Is her world view not normal? Yes.
And I do think people are overly harsh on Danny.
So you don’t think Mary believes she’s doing the right thing? There’s a reason “Intent isn’t magic” has become a mantra on the left–it’s because intent is used to excuse a great deal of really, really horrible shit.
Well my arguments are specific to Joyce, because she does appear to honestly love and care about others around her. These are generally characteristics that our society considers “good”.
There has to be some agreement on what good is.
So if I’m reading you right, people who have opposing views to yours (or those you disagree with) are bad people. That’s not a very productive stance to take.
It is, however, an extremely common one.
If those views are “homosexuality is unacceptable” I can get behind calling them bad people.
When those views support and perpetuate the horrible oppression of entire segments of humanity then yeah they are bad people. Not because they disagree with me but because they disagree with basic morality.
Yeah! Make the brainwashed girl SUFFER!
You’re a real champion of justice.
Joyce loses sympathy from me when she encourages physical violence upon her date when he hadn’t even done anything wrong, much less the action that she was grossly overreacting to and helps a gay guy to get back in the closet and date him, thereby encouraging a relationship that solves nothing, makes no one happy, and just hurts all parties involved. There comes a point where you have to hold someone responsible for their actions.
c)
Man, it’s almost like this is an ongoing story where characters grow and develop over time!
And Joyce started out in a place that makes her very unlikable to me. *shrug*
Given your previous mention of him, I assume you’re a fan of Danny, right?
Because early on, that guy was a mopey, moralizing, vaguely misogynistic whiner who tried to get his girlfriend to give up her dreams, and then tried to ruin her new relationship to prove a point to himself.
Walky has been a prick sometimes, Dorothy had a tendency to be stuck up, Sal was dismissive to everybody who spoke to her, Billie was a total asshole whenever she felt like it. These are people, let alone college freshmen, and they are growing and learning about the world around them.
Joyce has grown up her whole life with the knowledge ingrained in her that gay people were awful and going to hell, and having met literally two of them, made a 180 on that and decided otherwise. I won’t ask you to like her, and it is deeply unfair to expect anybody to condone or forgive her actions, but they are what they are, and Joyce has shown a strong desire to change the viewpoints that clash with her desire to be a good person doing the right thing.
SPencer: The difference is that whereas most folks are willing to grumble about Danny, complain about Joe and rip into Sarah when they’re being complete jackasses (hell, “to Dan” has become a verb), Joyce gets a lot of passes for her upbringing–as if her upbringing were unique in shaping her. Roz is no less a product of her homelife–you know, the one where her older sister is now an extremely hypocritical politician who is perfectly willing to espouse horrible views (and, presumably, make equally horrible votes) in order to stay in office.
For someone who wants Joyce to consider other people’s perspectives, backgrounds, and motivations, you’re trying your damnedest not to consider hers.
I can think of at least five characters in this webcomic who AREN’T let off the hook because of their “background”. Do we excuse Danny for what he’s done? Amber? Ruth? Mary? Sal? No we do not. Joyce is exempt because reasons. The hypocrisy infuriates me.
Excuse me but you don’t know me, you don’t know what I think of any of those characters.
Speak to me. Don’t speak past me to other people.
I tend to address the DoA readership as a whole when I rant, and for that I apologize. I’ve just wanted to let this out for awhile.
In answer to your “questions”:
Danny? No, but that’s because Willis hates him too
Amber? Yes, because Blaine is a Jerk
Ruth? Yes, because fan-favorite
Mary? No, because she is a jerk and, again, Willis-hate
Sal? Yes, because another fan-favorite.
Now, two out five isn’t so bad, but still! Only two out of five of your examples don’t get a free pass.
Sure we could side with Roz if she was guilting Joyce on say…. any of that. Roz is giving Joyce crap for not being on the side of angels in a timely fashion.
So Joyce isn’t being held accountable for any of that. Also a classroom is not a court, there is presumably a time and place for getting your accusations on.
Of course Zagreus would be rooting for a Joyce breakdown. xD
I’m personally split here. Does Roz have a point? Yes. Is this even in the range of halfway decent ways to make it? Probably not.
I couldn’t disagree more. I know there’s a certain point at which you can’t blame your upbringing for your ignorance anymore, but I think Joyce deserves a little compassion. How does Roz berating her help anything? Maybe if she had spoken up like this before, but now she’s only tearing Joyce down when she’s finally making progress. You don’t fucking yell at someone for their past attitudes after they revoke them. That doesn’t help anyone.
Roz’s attitude here feels like someone yelling at an infant that just took their first step because they should already be running.
I think what bothers me the most is that Roz really knows nothing about Joyce as a person outside of her fundamentalist upbringing, and yet she still feels qualified to judge her.
This would be good for Joyce if it wasn’t in class, in front of everyone, in such a self righteous and angry way. If Roz had said the same thing outside after class in a flat sarcastic tone it would be sweet sweet medicine for Joyce. But that’s not really something Roz would do, that’s something Mike would do.
Hence Mike being one of the greatest characters in the strip. Wish I had put that in my poll. :/
Thank you, Roz, for demonstrating one of the fundamental rules of human stupidity, namely, the probability of someone being stupid has nothing to do with any other quality that person has.
I’ve known people who would never have been willing to even recognize something like this, no matter what the cause was. The fact that Joyce was not only willing to, but actually went off on her own church, is a pretty good sign, in my opinion.
WHAT A OMEGA 7 bongo!
Man, those freshman philosophizers, I tell ya!
Joyce didn’t ask to be a hero, Roz. She’s new to this stuff! And she’s had a rough weekend – you talk to her, Miss Judgy-Judge! Grrr…
(And Crazy Dina… Combined?)
NO ROZ! YOU DON’T! YOU GIVE HER TIME TO PROCESS THE %#$@%# NEW INFORMATION! *pounds table*
This isn’t cool! Joyce has had nothing but epiphanies today, and this ISN’T a simple one. It requires going against things she’s been taught from birth, and she probably had no idea that there were those within her church that denied lesbians simple rights and protections! It’s different when the church appears to be trying to help these people, but when it becomes clear that it’s hurting people, like it was doing to Becky, that’s when Joyce’s attitude changed. No sooner, no later.
This is an important fact Roz seems to be missing – Joyce probably would have taken in Roz in a heartbeat if something happened that put her in trouble. She’d preach Roz’s head off, but she’d still take Roz in and protect her. But she would never in a million years to think to try to hurt any of these people. Her relationship with Ethan was based on what they thought they wanted and/or needed. Again, nothing more, nothing less. Were that to change, Joyce’s attitude would have as well.
It’s that simple. That neat. That easy.
Right. (Though Joyce’s motivations for dating Ethan are…also a little bit selfish.)
I can’t help but feel that Roz reacted similarly after the party, only to discover the context of Joyce’s actions and have a change of heart. Maybe discovering the truth of what’s up with Joyce will once again bring Roz back around.
Only if it can make Roz feel superior to Joyce. everything I’ve seen of Roz points to the fact that her acts of altruism have less to do with any empathy she has for others and more with her performing the roll she has chosen for herself (righteous morally evolved social crusader)
I never really understood why people hated Roz so much in Shortpacked. I guess they were just anticipating this scene.
In Shortpacked Roz was a manipulative, shallow user on top of her arrogance.
I don’t recall her being particularly self-righteous about it, though.
No, which is why she was so good at getting people to like her (except Leslie… hmmm…).
Remember when she ignored Jacob’s sex addiction and used it to control him and accused his therapist of being a sex hater just trying to shame him?
I liked Roz just fine in Shortpacked, until she started being horrible to Jacob.
Roz was okay until she took advantage of Jacob’s sex addiction and the comic treated it as harmless and naughty.
DoA!Roz was leagues better than her by her first panel.
She treated it that way. The comic did not seem to in my opinion.
Yeah, the comic wasn’t condoning her actions. Roz was saying that “sex addiction” wasn’t a thing and got pretty huffy about it when Jacob insisted it was an issue for him, but the comic certainly never condoned her actions.
I mean, if nothing else, the results of the addiction and the effects on Jacob’s life (becoming a slovenly shut-in, affecting his job and other relationships) were never shown in a positive light.
I’m just grossed out that it even happened in the first place, and that later on I was supposed to view Roz sympathetically rather than as a total scumbag.
The comic didn’t treat it that way, hence why nobody else ever found out about it as it likely would have resulted in her getting kicked out and leaving the comic.
Has anyone considered that Willis may be trying to revisit the issue of sex addiction… through Joe?
Roz, why are you responding to arguments that nobody’s made?
Maybe she has 4th wall powers and is responding to us somehow.
They’d have to be precognitive 4th wall powers, given the buffer.
So, she’s not just a psychic. She’s a future psychic.
So she already knows if Joyce will decide to be eaten by a dragon?
sounds reasonable.
Roz: The Oracle of Bloomington.
Joyce did make quite a display of her righteous indignation. Roz may have interpreted that as a bid for attention. An implicit request for praise.
Might not have taken issue quite the same way if she’d just overheard Joyce talking with some friends about how this information’s changing the way she thinks about the church, though who knows. Hard to say for sure. She and Joyce have kind of been at eachother’s throats since day 1.
Aaaaand here comes the Boom, running for a circle heading straight to Roz.
I’m having a really hard time not sympathizing with Roz here, since I had the exact same reaction a few years ago about a once virulently homophobic preacher who changed his stance after his son came out. If it was literally anyone but his own son, he would’ve gleefully bullied him towards suicide, but since he managed to demonstrate a bare minimum of basic human decency to *his own son*, he’s a great progressive thinker.
http://the-toast.net/2014/09/11/father-daughters-think-treat-women-like-daughters/
not the same but
kinda
I’ve been the Roz in a similar situation as well before and I sympathize with her greatly as well. I see you, Roz. I see you and I get you.
I have a question. Did this person ever apologize? Did they admit that they were wrong, make any gestures of restitution, try to undo the damage they had done or help the people they had hurt? Or are they one of those J-holes who skips straight for asking forgiveness and blithely ignore the whole repentance part?
Yeah, all those socio-political powerhouses who change their opinion only after their shit effects them and their families personally kind of piss me off. I mean, I’m happy your son won’t be disowned and stuff, but maybe you could have had a little compassion for everybody else’s gay sons as opposed to just yours.
But, idk, it’s a matter of degrees. The homophobic preacher has actively spread his ignorant and hurtful beliefs for many years to the detriment of many families and people. Joyce was a minor until recently, and her ignorance probably hasn’t really created too much strife. The most of what she’s done is to Ethan, and I don’t think she messed with his head/self-esteem as much as allowed him to mess with his own head/self-esteem. And, as such, I’m willing to let Joyce receive some praise for this revelation, where I wouldn’t be so forgiving of the preacher.
That perspective helps me understand Roz. Sounds like that preacher has a lot to answer for, and will never really be able to clear his name.
Joyce still has a chance, though – her worst transgression (her treatment of Ethan) can still be turned around.
Roz just might win the Most Polarising DoA Character Award for 2015.
Will she take the gold from mike in the history of …ever?
As polarizing as this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZM5r7NaaQE
(Feeling kind of random tonight)
Roz is being a jerk. People learn at their own pace. 4 weeks against a lifetime pf brainwashing is amazing progress
I wonder if Roz has a back story. Her reaction seems a little overkill.
eh, I mean if you’ve ever had a friend who this happened to it’s pretty natural
and y’know, these people are 18
not even adults really
The situation with her older sister is probably the closest we have in canon right now, though it’s not directly applicable.
Robin is Roz’s backstory. Robin the “Family Values” politician. She’s been steeped in the shit.
I’m sure Roz has had the same exact belief system her entire life, and was the same person at 8 as she is at 18.
She’s got a right to be mad, sure, but that isn’t, and never will be, a license to lash out like a petulant child. Her moral highground looks awfully familiar, too, given she’s basically being Joyce from weeks ago, around the sex tape.
No one is the exact same person at 8 as they are at 18. Unless that was sarcasm, in which case never mind me.
I was being sarcastic, yes, in regards to Roz’s judgment.
Yeah, Roz, that makes total sense. You are guilty of doing terrible things because you associate with people who do terrible things.
So….date rapists. That was you, Roz. Up until now, that was you.
BOOM.
daaaang.
Well, it was her party!!!
…So yeah, Roz gets no sympathy from me.
It was Ron’s party actually.
Really?…man, I could have sworn it was a party she set up!
(Shows what I know for not having re-read that chapter in a LONG time. lol)
Joyce didn’t do that when Roz tried to help. Instead, she accused her of being a witch!
I’m confused what you mean when you say Joyce “didn’t do” something. What didn’t she do?
As for the witch comment, that doesn’t read like an accusation to me. That reads like a sincere question born out of general ignorance…ignorance that wasn’t helped by Roz’s sarcastic response. Now does that make it any better? Not by much. But in that same strip Roz comes in referring to Joyce as “Bible Girl” because she had never bothered to learn her name. Neither of them have bothered to learn anything about the other and have instead imprinted whatever stupid sterotypes they’ve learned from their politics onto the other. Which I suppose was my point all along- Roz in her own way has been acting like Joyce’s opposite, happy with her own world views and stupidly hostile towards everything outside of them. She demonstrates some amount of compassion towards people she doesn’t understand ala that card she gives to Joyce…just like Joyce does when sticking up for her atheist friend and so forth. But her outburst here doesn’t make her right. In fact, I’d say it makes her worse than Joyce, because of the two so far its Joyce who has demonstrated a willingness to change.
You glanced over one of the key distinctions, though.
Roz tried to help someone who has never been anything but insulting to her. Joyce helps people she already likes.
So let me see if I understand this correctly.
You are saying that when confronted with evidence that something terrible has or is happening to a person that Joyce Brown will refuse to give them any help she can provide due to personal dislike of that person?
Sorry, Mr. Freemage. That doesn’t sound anything like the character *I* have been reading about all this time. I’m willing to hear what has led you to this conclusion, but its gonna be a hard sell. The fact that we have yet to see her help someone that she doesn’t like is not any kind of proof that she would NOT do such a thing. Moreover, I submit that “Joyce helping only people she likes” only appears reasonable because Joyce tends to like most of the people she comes into contact with…perhaps to a fault.
She didn’t accuse Roz of being pro-rape somehow.
Took me a moment to process that. Well played.
It was Ron’s party, Ryan doesn’t seem to have been an invited guest, and there’s no indication that Roz has ever even met him.
Nope, sorry. Ignorance is no excuse in Roz’s world. Proximity and association alone are enough to condemn you for the crimes of others.
Y’know what? Fuck Roz. And not in the way she likes. Fuck her with a rusty reamer.
THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU.
I’m firmly with Roz on this, but really I’m looking forward to this playing out. Better to lay it on thick, get the crying and the apologies out of the way, and let bygones, instead of extended animosity and constant torture.
I feel like both Roz and Dorothy are missing something here. Roz isn’t willing to let Joyce forget her past. She’s bringing it up when clearly Joyce isn’t that person anymore. But Dorothy, in her own way, is too willing to help Joyce here. It’s good that she’s supportive of this change in Joyce, but as Roz is kinda saying.
“Until today, that was you.”
Until Joyce has made full amends, or at least begins to do so, she’s still in danger of falling back.
She’s still dating Ethan in hopes of turning him straight. I feel like the breakup of that relationsihp seems to be where this scene will lead.
But what has Roz done to earn the right to be the judge? Who has she saved? What actual effort has she put behind her beliefs?
She’s given away some condoms!
She just threw them in Billie’s room. I’m kind of disappointed that we didn’t get to see Billie’s reaction to that.
I strongly suspect she has done more than just that. She isn’t a main character, we don’t know what all she gets up to off-screen
But… Joyce has never been that person. Aside from her date with Joe, when has she ever tried to be anything but helpful to someone? Even her relationship with Ethan isn’t just her trying to “fix” him, there was a lot of lead up to it from Ethan’s side as well where he’s grappling with maybe it is better for him to go back into the closet. From an outside perspective it’s pretty obvious that that’s not going to work, but it’s fitting that he’s not operating from an outside perspective on his own behaviour. And frankly, if he decides that he can’t go back into the closet, I’d be utterly shocked if Joyce didn’t do her best to support him anyways. Heck, take a look at how she reacted when Becky needed help. Sure, she did check to see if it was ok with the scriptures, but the first thing she did was say yes. There wasn’t even much thought behind it. Her best friend needed help, so she offered it.
For Roz to accuse her of being the same as these organizations that deny help to those who need it is unfair, and frankly, wrong. She doesn’t actually have a point here because Joyce doesn’t turn away people who need help.
Thank you Idris. I think you covered everything I was thinking.
Except that the problem is highlighted in how Joyce processes these changes. Each and every time, it’s a case of, “This is a person I like, therefore my prior teachings that say that what they do is inherently evil must be wrong. Time for me to excise precisely the amount of my scripture needed for me to make it okay to associate with them again, but not to look at the larger picture at all.”
And thus, she continues to blunder through and say (and do) hurtful things, all while believing it to be for the best.
Yeah, of course Roz isn’t willing to let Joyce forget her past. “Her past” consists of every single event from her birth until like, yesterday afternoon.
And by what standard is Joyce to be judged? Must she perform social activism under Roz’s watchful eye until such time as she has been deemed sufficiently amended?
Roz is kind of a poor choice for that, considering that, all things considered, Joyce has very little reason to like her no matter how much her viewpoint ends up changing.
No arguments that Roz is being a total bongo here, but I gotta agree with her. From her expression, Joyce does too.
That said, Leslie and Dorothy are totally in the right here. I’m not gonna throw a parade for someone that only has a moral epiphany when it’s *their* special someone that’s gay, but I’m not gonna berate them either. And a classroom really isn’t the place to beat someone with your moral high ground. That’s what the hall *after* class is for.
Summary: Roz is a right(eous) bongo, Leslie is having to (rightly) kick someone out of her class again (that’s the second time in four weeks? That’s pretty bad), Dorothy is right, and Joyce is looks pained as fuck.
So I’m gonna say Willis is doing a good job with the drama, as usual. How entertaining would things be if everyone was all wise and mature and shit?
And this is the point that everyone should take from this comic.
A person who’s made a mistake for a good chunk of their life doesn’t deserve special praise when they finally start correcting it, but they also don’t deserve to be trampled by someone riding in on the high horse of self-righteousness.
That might be the moral lesson, but from the comments it doesn’t seem to be well received.
Because they are sexist assholes. If Mike had done this, people will be bursting with enlightenment.
This webcomic needs more Roz-Joyce interactions.
Double plus good if Roz actually manages to treat Joyce like a human being for once.
She has actually, as The_Bionic_Doctor has pointed out several times. As far as we know, though, it was only just the once.
Jesus Christ, Roz
(play on words intended)
Roz has a terrible view on the world thinking that everything about a person is etched in stone. Roz has a point in the matter, but Joyce is refining her viewpoint by exposing herself to the world outside of her belief comfort zone. From what I’m interpreting, Roz is taking Joyce’s rage out of context, possibly thinking that this epiphany is only coming from listening to a sad story involving the lesson, not knowing anything about Becky, and just making herself look like an ass (again).
Well…a big hearty “Fuck You” too, Roz!
Roz is right in that Joyce’s mindset was enabling this behavior, she’s WAY WRONG to directly blame Joyce for putting homeless kids on the street. Unless Joyce actually did that, maybe don’t directly blame her for it.
Also, nobody said Joyce was a hero, they simply encouraged her more accurate view of things. I guess we shouldn’t be pleased when people begin to think about things more reasonably huh? For… some reason.
Jeez, Roz, if anyone actually expected you to treat Joyce like a saint maybe that would’ve been called for…
While I love Joyce and I can’t blame her for being raised how she was raised, I also can’t hate on Roz for this scene because SHE was raised with a duplicitous Republican politician for an elder sibling and probably spent a lot of time aggressively defending her views and getting zero respect for it. (Am I projecting? I may be projecting. And not just ’cause of my avatar.)
While I agree that analysis is plausible and indeed is probably true…if that’s the case, what she’s doing is projecting the anger or whatever pent up family crap she’s gone through with her sister onto Joyce.
Which is part of the point RJ is trying to make. If we give Joyce’s often hurtful behavior a pass because of her upbringing and immaturity, then why doesn’t Roz deserve the same opportunity? I’m not saying Leslie was wrong for kicking her out–time and place do matter. But I do have to wonder about how Joyce would’ve reacted to this lecture prior to Big Gay Becky arriving on the scene. (Best guess: A shit-ton of apologetics about hating the sin and loving the sinner, how it’s for the best of those poor gay kids to be forced back into righteous behavior even if it seems harsh, etc, etc.)
Exactly – Joyce gets a pass because we know her backstory, but Roz has a backstory too. She might be purging her anger inappropriately, but her anger is legitimate and very possibly comes from a place of hurt.
I’ve been thinking about this and am interested that lots of people are furious with Roz for disrespecting Joyce, but not for disrespecting Leslie. Les is the person who should be setting the terms of this conversation, and not just because she’s the professor… I’m really hoping we see a private conversation between Leslie and Roz tomorrow.
Roz – in a commentator thread near you. That “I’m supposed to…” always gets me.
I find it grimly amusing that Roz decides to pick a fight not over Joyce disagreeing with her, but that she was apparently slow to change her position.
I get the feeling Roz’s rage is more to do with a possible lack of respect for her various declarations with an imagining of everyone functionally praising Joyce for her new position.
Especially since nobody said word one about Joyce’s declarations. Not even Dorothy.
Not that they got much of a chance to react. Roz jumped on it rather quick.
Roz fundmentaly changed both the discussion and tone it ways that will derail the other character’s response to Joyce’s deceleration. The discussion now becomes about Roz vs Joyce, rather than the subject matter of Joyce’s bellicose declaration and the reasons for it. Mainly the importance of empathy, understanding, and compassion Which many organized groups (not just religions) general fail to apply even when it ostensibly a cornerstone of their group ethos.
But that discussion won’t happen now. And Roz demonstrated exactly why those things are important.
(It’s been said plenty before, but…) I really want to see how all of this affects Joyce’s relationship with Ethan. Change there seems kind of inevitable at this point.
Roz quite possibly has LGBT+ friends herself; plus, Roz has seen people like Joyce hate both Roz’s behavior and Roz herself (as a woman of color). Remember this? Joyce literally said that Roz has a damaged soul because she’s had too much sex. Also, Roz is sick of Robin trying to force Roz to be a poster girl for archaic, bigoted standards of purity to pander to a voting base that talks just like Joyce.
Roz has spent a lot of time pursuing healthy sex education for herself and her peers and has probably done hours upon hours of research to better herself, be capable of helping the LGBT+ community, and make sure she knows what she’s talking about.
So Joyce, who really is pretty brainwashed in a way that 18-year-old Roz is not equipped to understand, comes in and is totally shocked to learn these facts that Roz can probably rattle off by heart. Roz went out of her way to defy Robin, learn new perspective, and fight for better attitudes towards sex. Joyce blithely wandered around spewing hate because she didn’t know statistics that were readily available for her to find at any moment.
Roz is being a self-centered jerk here and should shut up and think about the question she’s asking in the first panel. But she has very, very good reasons to be angry at Joyce.
Oh, get out of here with your nuanced, insightful empathy on both sides, you!
*thoughtful HMM noises.*
Yep, that was about where I was at, except you said it better and in more detail.
Those are good points and a very salient comic. Roz is plainly out of line here; the teacher isn’t ordering her out without reason. But seeing as how Joyce was fine judging her in the past, I understand why Roz might be so quick to seize on her.
I love this comment with all my heart.
Sure, she has reasons to be upset. But the fact remains, taking out your personal mad on someone, no matter how justified it is, just opens you up to more of the same.
But if Roz came to her views because she has LGBT friends, how does that make her different from Joyce?
That’s not what I said.
JTo clarify the difference between Tom T’s reading and TSB’s point….
Joyce changes her views based around specific people–creating a very real form of hypocrisy. Roz, OTOH, is more likely to be starting from the broad rule (don’t judge the sexuality of others) and then seeing how failure to adhere to that rule is affecting people she cares about.
My only issue with this is the assumption that Roz has done the work as well. Unless we see it we don’t know that for a fact. I feel like a lot of Roz’s positions are thought out just enough to determine the position that is like to affect her sister the most.
Hmmm, yeah. Good point.
We’ve seen Roz actively arguing for sexual freedom, helping distribute birth control, and slipping some orientation education into her conversations with Riley in a way I read as intentional, so I would say Roz has definitely done some research and is actively fighting for her beliefs.
But you’re right that we haven’t seen her talk about gay rights much, and she was pretty arrogant towards Leslie in one scene. So I might be overstating how knowledgeable Roz is. She might be a bad ally to LGBT+ people. Still, what we have seen from her is impressive enough that I’m inclined to empathize with this (still inappropriate) outburst.
I’m feeling pretty annoyed at the backlash against Roz here, so I’m going to elaborate on this. Once again, I totally agree that she’s way out of line, but this is one exchange probably taking less than 20 seconds. Her losing her temper for less than a full minute (and being appropriately criticized and punished by the people around her) is not grounds to dismiss her entire character.
Four weeks ago, Joyce told Roz that her soul was fundamentally damaged and almost destroyed because she’d had too much sex. Dorothy responded to Roz’s “sex tape as political statement” stunt by referring to it as “dumb”, and when she got an interview, pulled no punches in thoroughly questioning Roz’s personal and political choices. Dorothy turns full skepticism and criticism on Roz’s attempts and activism but coddles Joyce no matter what horrible shit she says.
Now, from Roz’s perspective, Joyce is going “Oh my god! The Church hurts gay teenagers? What??? Who knew this? Why didn’t anyone tell me?” And Dorothy, as usual, is holding her hand through this whole assumption.
As for “I’m expected to treat her like a hero”… yep, this absolutely happens. Arguing for feminism or LGBT+ rights makes you angry and humorless. I’m sure Roz has been called every misogynistic slur under the sun, especially after her sex tape. There are many, many people who like or share Facebook posts like “parents of the year heroically don’t set LGBT+ child on fire” but who would never actually recognize and praise activists who have been fighting for that kind of acceptance or who helped shelter kids that did get rejected. Which person is more of a feel-good human interest story: a priest who agrees to officiate gay weddings or a lawyer for a human rights organization fighting their hundredth case? People don’t want to hear about the hard, painful, often fruitless work of struggling for rights, they want to hear some cute story about how ~we all just need to love each other~ and then ~everyone ends up getting along~.
I love Roz and Dorothy and Joyce. I think they’re all self-centered and ignorant because they’re eighteen and leaving home and learning about new perspectives for the first time. I think they all have a long way to go in learning about the civil rights struggles happening in American society and how to help the people around them that are experiencing oppression that they don’t. I think Roz is further along than Joyce in that regard, though she needs to be careful not to tortoise-and-hare it up in that regard (I don’t think she will; Roz is less compassionate than Joyce but she still seems to me like a person who wants to do the right thing). I think ultimately this exchange will be a good thing for Joyce and will cement in her mind that she needs to keep up the introspection and criticism of her fundamentalist doctrine.
Hmmmm. Having spent 10+ comments arguing against Roz in this thread… you have a point. And you have explained it and elaborated it really well. I can see better where Roz is coming from now, and given a better choice of time and place this could have been the beginning of a constructive discussion.
I really don’t like the “ultimately it will be good for character X” argument for many reasons. But for the sake of paralellism I think that this will ultimately be good for Roz. She will remember this as the day she took all her passion, all her fury, all her finely honed argumentation skills and directed them NOT at the embodiment of the restrictive norms that her sister panders to, but at a confused and scared young person who was trying her very best to do the right thing at a high personal cost, and was just taking the first step in a journey that Roz herself began ages ago.
Oh, sorry, I should have been clearer: I don’t see “it will be good for Joyce in the long run” as a defense of Roz. That was meant as an analysis of this moment in Joyce’s character arc, not a reason why I think Roz’s anger is understandable. I do think it’ll be good for Joyce but I think a) that idea hasn’t occurred to Roz right now and b) it wouldn’t be a justification even if that was her reasoning.
I think you’re right about Roz. Willis has been setting Roz up for a bit of a fall (her boasting to Leslie that she doesn’t need the course, for example). I certainly don’t think she needs to be humiliated or anything but she could use a bit of humbleness and a reality check.
Ah, got it. Then I think we are on the same page there.
You are right that Roz is serving a plot function now and has been set up for it for some time (as pointed out in the alt text). Come to think of it, she has been cast in a less and less sympathetic light each time we’ve seen her (last time was when she did less than welcome advances to Jacob). She will have a reality check, just like you said.
In fact, something I really wish for now is that somewhere down the line Roz and Joyce will both have grown enough to reconcile their differences. That would be a very nice evidence of how they change into something better.
Yey! I got the nr 1000 comment. This thread just keep on giving.
You know, you’re right. I’ve been too hard on Roz; she’s out of line here, but I responded too. Um. Energetically. Like this, it’s easier to understand where she’s coming from.
Well, i feel the in most cases negativity can lead to positive outcome in many cases, yes, roz is acting like a bongo and the way she acted is not suited for a classroom or most other places really, but hopefully this will lead to some development on joyce part and help her think a littlefor herself instead of thinking the holy book is all saying and all knowing……
Lotta Roz hate in here. Frankly, I agree with her. I realize Joyce isn’t a bad person and doesn’t deserve this level of vitriol, Roz is right. We shouldn’t treat people like they did something special for achieving a baseline level of respect for people.
Part of growing is having the ugly parts of you thrown in your face. In this case, that’s Joyce’s belief. So far her entire emotional journey has been about what other people have told her, and she seems to focus more on that than the fact that she chose to believe it.
Well, and this comment section is throwing the ugly parts of Roz in her face.
oblig. FAAAAAAAAAAACE
+1!
A “baseline level of respect”?
As much as acceptance and respect for LGBT youth SHOULD be a bare minimum baseline for humanity, if we went by that baseline we’d be excluding over 3/4 of the population of the world. Sadly, it IS something special that Joyce has managed to grow a heart on this issue. Especially considering her upbringing. And I’m not sure how much of a “choice” her opinions are, when her livelihood in her parents’ house essentially entailed taking on these beliefs.
I’m not saying Joyce deserves a pat on the back, a medal, and a parade, but I think we can and should allow Joyce to feel good about doing a good thing and changing her opinion about LGBT people, as opposed to making her feel like shit like Roz seems determined to.
Calculus is an important skill for scientists. The moon is not made of green cheese.
What, you think those are non-sequiturs? No more so than Roz’s outburst about not treating Joyce like a hero. Sure, it’s “right”, but it’s not *relevant*, because Roz is the only one to bring that up. It’s about what’s happening in Roz’s head, not what’s happening in the classroom. (Unless Willis skipped a strip.)
Very important point.
Or maybe Roz equates “someone who knows less than me on this topic is talking about it” with “treating like a hero”
I mean, it’s almost like Joyce is learning issues related to gender studies in a class about gender studies. THE NERVE. STRIKE HER DOWN BEFORE SHE PUTS ON AIRS
One particularly big issue is that Roz did this in class. I’ve attended classes like this before; they almost always come paired with a disclaimer at the beginning of the semester saying what is and is not okay. As Leslie says, they talk about the material, not each other. Roz is teaching Joyce that it is not okay to ask questions or be offended in this course because she will be shot down, which has the potential to discourage her from asking questions and taking part in discussion later.
They’re not there for a confrontation, they’re here to learn. Roz not only hurt Joyce’s feelings, she basically shot down a great lead-up that Leslie had to continue teaching the material, damaged any trust that Joyce had that bringing up concerns and revelations of her own in this class and undercut Leslie’s authority.
I was too hard on Roz in prior updates, but I still believe what she did here was not correct or right.
as much of a bongo shes being she has a point
I suppose if we’d gotten a beat or two more to show anyone, like, actually praising Joyce, I’d be more sympathetic towards Roz. As it is, her comments are frankly baseless and serve only to paint her as being needlessly vitriolic and hurtful.
Well, she is not wrong. I loe Roz, whatever, no regrets.
It’s like nobody in the room understands that there’s a class going on.
Yes, have an epiphany in your own time please and don’t disturb a class.
Remember folks, the classroom is no place to make connections or gain understanding of how the world works.
Near as I can tell it’s a place to surreptitiously text and pay the least amount of attention possible to get a passing grade.
You can do that without disrupting the class, you know. I’ve had an epiphany or two in class myself, but I somehow managed to restrain myself from shouting curses at all that’s wrong in the world right then and there.
To say nothing of Joe with his hacky jokes. Roz right here was flatout told she was derailing the discussion and she just kept on going. I don’t feel like it’s hard to leave this stuff until after class.
This would have been a teeny-tiny bit more effective if Joyce was a horrible person like Roz was insinuating.
Like, if this was Mary, then yeah Roz all the way.
Joyce herself already made that discovery though, so really, what is Roz contributing exactly?
Not much per se i think except maybe transfered her from the slow-train over to the express-train, she still get to the destination, just a little quicker and on a more rougher xD
Well, that’s just the problem. You don’t have to be a horrible person to be enabling bigotry. History is full of very nice people doing horrible things, or just passively supporting those things being done by other people.
A fundie is having an epiphany and growing as a human being. Roz knows what to do in this situation, guilt trip her senseless
Hanky-panky you Roz!
I see her point but this is not right tone or place for that.
Seems to me that Roz is making a good point towards Joyce but an even better one towards Dorothy
It does hurt to hear the truth and Joyce has had ample times to help point out somethings to Joyce but hasn’t
Having said that disrespecting Les like she did is not cool
I believe I understand David and his unwillingness to suffer fools a lot better after this comic.
Thank goodness the subject I teach isn’t very polarizing. I could not handle this in my classroom.
In any case, I know that I would not have grown the way Joyce is now (I didn’t start where she did, but I did have a very narrow worldview not that long ago, and meeting a variety of people was necessary to help me understand the problem with my prejudices and assumptions) had it not been for the compassion and patience of the people who helped reshape me. No one went off on me, they just told me their perspectives. The honesty in it made the arguments convincing enough, and that’s all I needed.
Maybe Joyce needs a complete mental break to change, but I think she’s inherently good-natured and will grow just from gaining more evidence and perspective, and I think that approach will make the transformation not only smoother, but also quicker.
pretty weak defusing effort from dorothy here
maybe be a teensy bit more stern in rebuking roz given what you know about joyce
guess she’s still reeling from walky talky though
Roz’s self-righteousness is quite disgusting. Angry intolerant hateful behavior is despicable, regardless of the reason for that behavior. Acting like this makes her no better than those that she’s railing against.
Roz is full of shit. Joyce may have on occasion spoken out of ignorance but never out of hate to ANYONE no matter how counter to her world view they may be. When her friend came to her she did not turn her away even at great risk to her own situation at school. What she is going through is more of a contextualization than an epiphany. Joyce needs to change very little in herself, she is an open, accepting, and tolerant person. It is only that she needs to realize that there are many is her church community that aren’t, and that is a bitter pill for her to swallow.
It’s always tough to accept it when you find out people you love, and who love you in turn, have horrible characteristics, especially when they’re the people who taught you, who you admired growing up. It’s world-shattering and heartbreaking. Especially at that age, old enough to have been thoroughly convinced, but too young to have truly explored for yourself.
There will obviously be snags, but progress is the key. I understand Roz’s frustration, but I don’t think Joyce, the one who is actually trying to learn and grow now, should be the target of this rant, specifically.
Think about what Roz has seen. The last time we’ve seen interactions between the two of them, Joyce tells Roz her soul would be cut down to its roots, and wonders about her coven.
Joyce is trying to be accepting and tolerant, but that’s not really her upbringing and you can see she’s still learning how. When Roz says Joyce has changed from the last four weeks, she’s not wrong.
Was that before or after Joyce was nearly raped at Roz’s party?
One of each. Since it wasn’t Roz’s party per se, she didn’t invite Joyce, and her full involvement was to try giving her information about what happened before getting asked about covens, I have a tough time considering it relevant to whether Joyce is accepting or not.
I can see Roz’s point of view but I also understand that Joyce is a product of her upbringing. She’s been exposed to a semester of diversity on campus but in reality that’s not going to undo the last eighteen years of what her parents and church community instilled in her. Understanding and tactfulness comes with age and different experiences, which Joyce is learning. To lash out on her especially after knowing her background makes Roz no different then the people who judged her. Which shows that Roz still has a lot of growing to do.
Are we sure it’s not Mike who put Roz in this class ? Because it sure would fit his MO of “hard truths via blows to the guts”
I just wanna play with my bongos! You argue I’ll play with my bongos! Bongo bongo bongo… *drums away*
And I’m gonna read some Bongo Comics.
Even after seeing the Twitter comment about a word replacement, it took me WAY too long to notice everyone saying bongo, like I just assumed it was referencing some meme I hadn’t seen yet.
I saw the tweet too, but I didn’t connect the dots. My thought was “I wish he had said that on Tumbler so I could ask him what word he was replacing with what”
As rotten and over the top as that is, Roz /kinda/ has a point. Joyce is being a bit of a hypocrite for talking down to the church when she was one of those people.
Changing and recontextualizing one’s worldview is not hypocritical in the slightest.
Naah I’m sorry but one epiphany does not a worldview change make. Shes changing and growing and thats good but shes still got the gay boyfriend and she still holds onto views like this: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/research/
No, but spontaneously turning around and acting like it’s not something you were a part of it.
I don’t know why, but the “I was against gays before, but then my FRIEND turned out to be one of them!” thing really bothers me. Like they didn’t realize hating and judging other people was wrong until it personally affected them. I know the end result is that we get a new ally, but damn.
She probably didn’t know all the stuff she learned in the last strip – her reaction isn’t just down to her friend coming out. Maybe she wouldn’t have had the same reaction if it wasn’t for Becky though.
Roz has only ever met intolerance with intolerance. The closest she came to trying to expand Joyce’s worldview was encourage her to seek a therapist after what happened with Ryan. And that took something ,she could only assume, horrible happening.
Good on Leslie for telling her to step outside. The comments Roz was directing at Joyce was unacceptable given the situation, disrespecting the teacher even more so after repeated warnings. You don’t attack someone for a sudden change in worldview or a realization. Even if Joyce does need it thrown in her face. Becky’s doing a good job of that by distancing herself and actively calling her out for inconsistencies.
I think it’s hard to say whether or not anyone is feeling “smug and superior” because we don’t have a live feed into anyone’s head, and we’ll never actually know how someone is feeling, unless they honestly tell us. So, unless Roz says, “You know, I feel like I’m better than her right now…” then we can say, for sure, that’s she’s feeling smug and superior. But she could also just be feeling angry… really angry. And it’s not unjustified. Is she being a jerk? Yes, but Joyce still hasn’t come to the realization of her part in it. She still hears of “her church” doing it, “her peers” doing it… but never yet considered that it was also “her” doing it. She was angry she has an oblique association with homophobia… but hadn’t yet admitted that she also had a direct part in it. That’s a different beast.
I don’t think Roz is saying, “You changed your mind for the wrong reason”… it’s that just learning something doesn’t automatically make you better. You have to put more effort into it.
I’m inclined to be on Roz’s side, here. Truth is not nice, and learning is not painless.
That might be applicable if Roz had asked what Joyce was going to do with this newfound revelation of hers. Piling on her for what’s already done isn’t productive.
Joyce has been a minor dependent on her parents for support, not to mention worldview. I think her culpability is pretty minimal.
And this is why I am so glad not to be in my late teens/early twenties. I’ve seen some really vicious things happen when I was in Bloomington in 94. I was in a sociology class and everyone ganged up on this poor girl from Israel. It was awful. She was sobbing and dropped the class, dropped out of IU and moved back to Israel. I also saw these assholes gang up and berate this older student in my French class and made fun of him for mispronouncing stuff. The dude had a hearing impairment. He had a visual hearing aid. I got shitty with them and said “Uh, people with hearing impairments take longer to learn how to pronounce things. Lay off.” God, I hated that time in my life.
Its not just teens and 20 sometimes, people who are bullies like that never stop. I still get prank calls from a jerk I met in freshman year. He’s in his 40’s now.
Growing old is not optional, but growing up is.
oooooh
😮
Those who are incapable of forgiveness should hope that they never find themselves in need of it.
That’s my world view. Naive? Maybe. But I’d rather be a naive fool at least trying to do some good than the alternative.
I really don’t like it when people get judgmental over other people’s failure to forgive… or do so in quick enough a fashion… particularly when the party to be forgiven has yet to deliver a simple, honest “I’m sorry”.
I’m not going to go out of my way to say that Roz’s actions here are appropriate. But, neither am I exactly going to refuse her the right to make Joyce’s earlier castigation of Roz have any consequences, whatsoever.
Joyce and Roz do have something in common. They prefer to degrade people for being wrong rather than help them learn after they admit they are wrong.
+1
God fucking damn Roz, wait to go full-on SJW on someone for changing their viewpoint.
You say SJW like it’s a bad thing.
The term “SJW” is an insult meant to degrade and dismiss the views of people who believe in social justice, so it is a bad thing.
Pretty sure when most people go “GODAMN SOCIAL JUSTICE” it’s aimed at the jerks on tumblr that verbally tear down a guy for getting a girl home after finding her passed out drunk, and finding him a creep for looking at her phone to find her mom.
yeah, those people, all over, my cousin said he saw that one time, did you know they are also pushing for laws to outlaw straight men going outside? too far imo
Yeah, but that’s a vocal minority, the people who get way too much focus because it’s the picture that people who are against feminism and the like WANT to be painted of those groups. You’re more likely to get “well done guy” from a majority of feminists on Tumblr.
Barring that, Tumblr is the chosen outlet for a lot of people to vent their frustrations on. It’s not surprising to find very extremist opinions there because it’s treated as a safe haven from the judging eyes of irl society. People making assumptions based on those posts are merely taking a view into the mind of someone who’s obviously very pissed off with their daily life, rather than making a coherent judgment of an social justice group.
I know what it is. But what I’m saying is that it’s not a bad thing. You *want* to be a warrior for social justice. There is literally nothing bad about social justice. People using it as an insult are basically saying ‘ewww, youuu… youuu DECENT PERSON!’. That makes no sense.
Ehhh, I wouldn’t use “warrior” to describe myself as a social justice proponent, because warrior carries violent connotations which run very contrary to what I think social activism is supposed to be about. To me, it’s meant to be a non-violent movement. The people who use violence as a means to bring awareness to social inequality are the so-called “warriors” that people who hate social activism point to in order to denounce the whole concept entirely.
That’s just a quibble over a word though. Fighter, then. Or even proponent, even though that seems less like an action word, more like a talk-y word. Champion, maybe?
We agree, basically, is what I’m saying. I’m anti-violence, pro justice, social and legal and any other kind of justice there may be.
Quibbling over debatably harmful words is a core component of what we do, though. <_<
Whatever, I don’t even really hate the word ‘warrior’. You become a warrior if you fight for something you believe in. It’s obviously not meant in a violent context here. Also, this word in our society has transcended the restricted meaning of a person who violently fights to the death, etc., it can totally mean just being a fighter for something and you know that, too.
Besides, sometimes you have to get a little loud, a little aggressive to get the message across. Progress is not made just by people singing Kumbaya. It also takes the people who organize a protest or a demonstration or a rally. Peaceful. Not violent. But agressive and out there. With the intent of being heard and being seen. I don’t hate ‘warrior’ as a descriptor for people like that to be honest with you.
Anyway. Social justice warrior/fighter/champion etc. isn’t an insult, shouldn’t be an insult and the movement of people reclaiming it and being proud of being called SJWs gives me hope, because they should be proud. Justice is always worth fighting for.
/steps off soapbox, sorry for the rant haha
But you don’t want to be a social justice asshole, which is what a bunch of these people really are. “I’m Right and they’re Wrong and that justifies my treating them like shit.” Just like Mary, but with a different Right and Wrong.
I’d rather be a social justice cleric. That way I can presumably turn these Gamergate types and make them flee as if they were undead.
No, it’t something used to describe people who do things like dox people for writing a racially insensitive limerick, or post the personal information of Klan members online to have people harass them at their homes and businesses. Or spam a person’s job until they get fired because they made a comic that ridicules said actions.
I might have more sympathy for Joyce being publicly shamed for her behavior if it weren’t for the whole “premarital hanky panky” thing:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/pmhp/
I kinda think that anyone who is coming down hard on Roz about this but didn’t come down equally hard on Joyce about that kinda has a double-standard. I can understand a reader responding more harshly to this because Roz is more eloquent (and has a better chance of hitting her target), whereas Joyce’s “hanky panky” freak out came across as sillier and more humorous to the reader (which took some of the edge off), but in terms of intention, Joyce really wasn’t any better.
I do agree that Roz shouldn’t be doing this, but Joyce shouldn’t have pulled that unbelievable crap either.
I am glad that Joyce is learning and becoming a better person. I hope that Roz does likewise.
Also relevant moments from that scene: Joyce basically saying Roz is a horrible person because she has sex (with a pretty nasty look on her face, in contrast to her ‘caring about [Joe’s] soul’), and Roz asking if that’s how Joyce makes herself feel superior, which feeds right into this scene (“first Joyce thinks she’s better because she’s pure, and now she’s a hero for being a decent human?”)
I’m pretty certain Willis wants us to make this connection too, since he resurrected the “hanky panky” phrase in yesterday’s comic.
I’m definitely in Dorothy’s camp here, but…
Joyce tries to be a nice person, and she has a good heart, but there have been at least a couple of times where she tosses that out the window because of her faith (and, yes, upbringing; I know she’s a kid that’s in the process of growing). Especially pertinent to this comic, Roz has been the target of at least one of those times.
Should Roz have gone off on her like this (especially after being told to drop it)? No. But I can definitely understand her getting fed up and not willing to have any patience.
go roz! way to call out joyce’s hypocrisy!
The way she’s doing it is not something to applaud. It’s a blatant personal attack, and it’s not productive toward the ultimate end goal of understanding. I think Roz is being a bongo, despite having a valid point.
I don’t.
This very comment board, only last strip, was acting like Joyce was some kind of hero now for having what is indeed the simplest of epiphanies. When Roz calls out the idea that Joyce is suddenly SO GREAT for only now realizing the church’s fuck ups (and only once she had something personal happen to her) she is calling out all of you that were so quick to applaud Joyce. The author wrote that intentionally. Willis even says in the alt text he basically put Roz in this class so she could be there to call out joyce like this.
Sure, Roz is being mean. But you know what? Mike is mean. all the time. in so many worse ways for shits and giggles. and people call him awesome. people love mike no matter how much of an asshole he is and concoct all these ridiculous justifications about how he’s an asshole “for other people’s own good.” They make excuses for him and try to say he regularly fucks people over to somehow help them.
But on the other hand when Roz makes a completely legit point in a mean way?
People like you call her the b-word so many goddamn times that Willis actually had to censor it to bongo. I see the difference. So no, I’m going to continue to applaud Roz, until the amount of reasonable conversation on here outweighs the amount of sexist assholes calling Roz a b-word.
Go Roz! way to call out joyce!
I don’t think we think Joyce is a hero, I think we are excited for her to be reaching that conclusion.
Also, how often does he ever say anything about a person? Seems to be he more often criticizes acts and objects, and sometimes does things that are outright ridiculous, but he never insults anyone directly and almost always gives them an out.