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I hope the irony of saying “I’d rather she was cute/sexy instead of angry” really sinks in for you since, essentially, that’s what she’s been told her entire life. “It’d be better if instead of angry you were cute and nice and pleasing.”
People can’t handle anything even remotely negative from other people, or even from themselves. If someone is upset they want to sweep it under the rug, regardless of the reason for it, regardless of whether or not it’s justified or not. I’m convinced that at least half the time, even people who know you and are close to you, only try to ‘help’ you when you’re upset about something, only because they’re thinking, ‘Ugh, this is SO inconvenient for ME to have to listen to, maybe if I help them they’ll shut up and stop bothering me with it’. In the case of females of the species it’s even worse: Girls are always supposed to be sweet and polite and nice and pleasant, regardless of how totally fucked things might be for them. Note I’m not saying ‘christian girls’, I mean all girls, everywhere, all over the world, throughout all of Human history. But it’s also Humans in general. You’re not allowed to be upset about anything, not outwardly, you’re expected to bottle it all up (“suck it up”) and not ‘inconvenience’ anyone with whatever it is. To be fair: Sure, I’m painting with the broadest of brushes here, there are people who are attention whores, there are people who are naturally melodramatic, there are people who are Canaries in a Coal Mine, for whom any deviation of their emotional needle beyond the absolute flatline gets amplified into what seems like the End Of The World, but I’m not really talking about just them either. And, of course, there are people who genuinely care about why someone is upset or angry about something and genuinely want to help. But it seems like there isn’t enough people really caring about other people in the world. Otherwise why would we have the crap that’s going on right now?
Joyce has an entire spectrum of perfectly valid reasons to be angry, and her brother needs to get his head out the sand and listen.
That is not what I was saying, not at all. Or at least, it’s not what I was trying to say. What I meant was, I like it when Joyce is happy just because she is happy. (Not happy because she’s being a stepford smiler). ^^
I like Angry Joyce. I like Happy Joyce, Funny Joyce, Sad Joyce, Confused Joyce, Hurt Joyce, Disgusted Joyce, Scared Joyce and all the other emotions too. I like the face that Joyce has dynamic emotions. I honestly don’t think I’d feel comfortable with a “Sexy Joyce” right now because she’s not in that mindset. Right now, she’s dealing with trauma after nearly being sexually assaulted at a party and she has very mixed up feelings because she has come to realize that many things may not be what she has been told. She has every right to be angry and that feeling should be validated and not shut down by people like you. I hope that you don’t tell people in your life this if they are trying to feel any emotion toward you.
TL;DR: Every version of Joyce is great because her feelings are valid.
I deal with my anger issues by exaggerating it to comical proportions so I can laugh at myself and not legitimately lash out at people. Not everyone gets I’m mostly joking, though, which is how your friends end up getting questioned about how they can possibly stand to be your friend…
But hey! I’ve never given into the urge to punch someone in the face, so success?
::accidentally throws a snake:: whoops!
Happy birthday though. May your babies eventually sleep through the night, and then another night, lots of giggling all day and sleepy nights in a row.
Happy Birthday, Willis!! One interesting game you can play now is How Old Will the Twins Be Before They Realize That Daddy (or Mommy) Has a Birthday Too? (In this game, your spouse can win or lose right along with you!)
Souls seem like an unJoycelike diet, unless they can be fashioned into soft-serve, but the creation of undead is usually an evil act. She’d probably just discard them, throw them through reality and into oblivion, or tear them to shreds.
“Actually, we expect people ordering from the children’s menu to throw tantrums, and we do not do ever other diner in the room the courtesy of kicking that party out.”
I agree, I am pretty tired of Joyce and her trauma zone. She has a perfect opportunity to help her friend her and, instead, she is making a scene in a restaurant.
…What? What are you even talking about? What “perfect opportunity”? If you’re talking about Jocelyne, I’m pretty sure Joyce can get ahold of her at any time. And John is being a huge asshole and trying to invalidate her completely valid anger.
Leslie reached out to her to offer help, but was tentative enough and enough of an authority figure Joyce didn’t trust her. This was not a time-limited offer, as Joyce is still in her class and will see her when she gets back to school. The question is, will Joyce realize that Leslie is actually trustworthy and a good ally in this?
What am I talking about? What are you talking about? Jocelyn doesn’t have any problems a micing van won’t solve right now. Her problems are in the future, poor thing.
Becky, you know, the homeless, abused, practically orphaned teenager with no means or financial support. She just announced a pressing need and Joyce (and I assume you, as well) would rather start a fight, cause a scene thag will result in having a cathartic meltdown and helping no one in the middle of a restaurant.
But there’s no opportunity to help Becky here. At least none that comes from listening to John tell her she overreacted and Becky’s problems aren’t a big deal and she’s being too angry.
Now if John would shut up and let them talk to Jocelyne who’s offered to help and likely has useful advice, there’s an opportunity there. But it’s not Joyce who’s screwing that up.
Where’s the help supposed to come from and what form is it taking?
That is a very good thing you just pointed out. John can do a LOT of good by just shutting up.
Let “Josh” talk to Becky, since they obviously found a report between them, listen to Joyce, let her tell him her story – in her own tempo. Maybe say a few non-commiting things just to keep the conversation going.
That would give Becky a chance to connect to someone that could genuinely help her, Joyce a chance to reconnect to family without feeling threatened, himself the chance to get a gauge of Joyce’s situation.
He would not even need to agree on anything, all he would need to do would be to listen and postpone his own judgement half an hour. The only drawback would be that he would put himself at risk of investing emotionally in Becky’s situation, or even learn that Joyce might have a point.
Listen to people… help them talk… invest emotionally… isn’t that EXACTLY what priests are supposed to do?
Ugh, it’s weird, i may have misinterpreted “let her tell him her story” as Jocelyn telling her story.
It’s of course different if you suggested that Joyce tells her story.
I’m pretty sure causing a scene and be angry IS the most helpful thing here.
Like, yeah, it’s not gonna fix any immediate issue with Becky not having her social security number. But it’s very clearly putting the line on where Joyce’s alligeance lies. And that is therefore something Becky won’t have to question, and it might even show Jocelyn that she might trust her sister to understand her when she decides to come out and not constantly fear for a toxic comment like their mother’s “is it worth getting you father in jail”-shit. Had she been polite and not caused a scene, it would sure be more pleasant for John, but it would show for Becky and Jocelyn that Joyce might let them be colleteral damage in drama in the future.
I REALLY want a like button right now. This sums it up perfectly in far, far fewer words than I would have used.
Standing up to John and calling him on his bullshit right now is what should be done. One way or another. He needs to be told what an asshole he’s being, and shown that Joyce will side with Becky and won’t take any patronizing, bigoted, gas lighting bull over it.
Then there’s that added bonus of Jocelyne seeing that Joyce is someone she can depend on when she needs her.
I’m so glad that Joyce ignored her life-long conditioning to be a “good girl” who doesn’t get angry and is instead honest and passionate in her emotions. I mean, she needs to better control her anger – she tends to be violent when mad, and that isn’t cool. But she isn’t LYING to herself about what she feels. You know why so many women cry when they’re mad? Because we’re covertly trained by society to get mad at ourselves whenever we’re mad at anything and see our anger at someone else as a personal failing and fall into a little spiral of fucked upness that brings out the water works. Joyce isn’t angry-crying. She’s angry-angry and is making that known and that doesn’t weaken her argument.
Yes. This. But this happens to me when I get really angry, too.
I was trained/conditioned to keep a very tight reign on my anger, not to let it show in public. I don’t think it is an accident that I have some anger management issues. “Boys don’t cry”, my ass…
Same here. So often there’s something I think is unique to me, and maybe is a personal failing, yet it seems to be a pretty common experience for many women, and simply many people.
I’m not a woman.
My experiences are with a few specific people (all women, actually, although I don’t think that’s really related).
Yet every time I hear women talk (slash read their writing) about this stuff, my immediate reaction is “Yes! Me too! I have exactly that experience. …uh, almost.”
There are times when you really really need someone to make a scene for you, as a way of acknowledging that the way you are being treated is not okay. It matters, both on a personal level an on the social movement level.
Joyce is doing proper allying right now – Joyce is taking the risk that Becky, put frankly, can’t and furthermore knows she can’t.
If Becky goes apeshit right now, how do you think John and Joyce’s parents will react? How do you think the restaurant will react? How likely do you think it is that she’ll be able to get out of there without physical abuse or being arrested if the owners get “worried” by the scary lesbian with an undercut? She is already only barely tolerated in their presence, for Joyce’s sake. Bad things will happen to Becky if she flips out about her treatment. From experience, people just fucking loooove to tell marginalized people to “just stand up” for ourselves (I have no doubt that John would be the sort to ask Becky why she didn’t just firmly tell her father that no she wouldn’t be coming with him while he had a rifle pointed at her face), but when we do, we’re the bad ones and they demonize and criminalize us for it (a good example: look at how the media is treating Black Lives Matter right now, or how pro-choice protesters are treated in the media in Atlantic Canada).
Allies have the ability to take that risk, because their place of privilege means they are not as likely to face consequences for standing up, and the consequences they do face are not likely to be as severe. An ally standing up for a marginalized person is not viewed as a dangerous deviant flouting the natural order of things – more often they’re viewed as someone who has a lot of empathy, even if they’re a little naive or gullible (I’m talking about the view by most casual bigots – i.e., most of mainstream society – not the view by hate group members here). Looking to history: In Canada, suffragettes got committed to asylums and tortured. Their male allies generally weren’t and were safe to put pressure on their colleagues to get the changes made.
Of course, the flipside of ally privilege is that said male allies are now treated as Big Damn Heros and presented as the leaders of the movement who “gave” women the right to vote (rather than recognizing that women always had the right to vote and men were oppressing them – it was not the mens’ place to give or take it away in the first place!). But that’s a different problem and it doesn’t take away from how necessary allies are to any movement, nor does it take away from the genuine good Joyce is doing. IMO, Joyce is doing allying right.
Thanks for writing this, I’ve never considered how privilege can reshape the optics of protest.
In regards to your Big Damn Heroes point I think that there is some justification for this view in that the allies don’t seek power for themselves but instead to dissipate their power to others. It’s not fair that they had such power, but it is noble that they would use the power so charitably.
I don’t mind recognizing allies, my issue is when allies are seen as the starters, leaders and drivers of a movement that they neither started, led, nor drove. That’s more my issue with the Big Damn Heros point.
Pierre Trudeau, while his government did great things for LGBT people in Canada, did not start the gay rights movement – that had its origins in Canada almost a century earlier, with bisexual, gay and lesbian people in the Victorian era. But we don’t remember the people who actually started the movement, we remember Trudeau as some big damn hero who did it all in a vacuum.
Justin Trudeau is being hailed as some feminist hero for his gender-equal cabinet – and don’t get me wrong, it’s a great step forward for women in Canada. But his decision to impose gender equality on cabinet doesn’t have its roots with him. He’s a great ally to women, but he is not the one who started feminism in Canada – that has its origins even before Canada was a country.
I could go on, but my issue isn’t with recognizing the contributions of allies, it’s with erasing the contribution of marginalized people in favor of recognizing the contribution of allies and lionizing said allies.
All of that assumes the need to make a scene. There isn’t one and there are much more productive things an ally can do for Becky, right now. The alternatives are not, suffer oppression in silence or top of your lungs diatribe. There is a lot of middle ground there.
Joyce has been watching her best friend be the butt of a long string of passive agressive bullshit from her family for two days. Joyce’s mom was -awful- to Becky. John is being awful to Becky. Joyce’s anger is more than reasonably justified, and maybe she isn’t expressing it in the most constructive way possible, but she has zero, ZERO experience with even -feeling- this kind of rage, so you might consider excusing her if she isn’t handling it in the best possible way.
Honestly, I find -your- response to her anger to be the same kind of condescending bullshit that her brother is throwing at her right now.
For me, personally: There have been very few times that someone has felt the need to explode at another person on my behalf. Every time it’s happened, I’ve been grateful for the explicit and unambiguous show of support.
For me, knowing I was supported explicitly when others are being condescending jerkasses and everything around you is going to hell? It helps. A lot.
Wow, all of these excuses for not helping Becky. Joyce and John have their own thing going on and Jocelyne is the only one trying to do anything. John is actually the outlier here and has even started ces oring himself.
In one conversation Jocelyne has focused more on Becky and overcoming her problems than Joyce has since Becky arrived at her school. Even when Becky comes right out and says what she needs Joyce just wants to vent. That bothers me.
This attitude isn’t helping Becky and isn’t helping Joyce. At all.
Don’t forget that it allows Joyce to establish her own independence. Calm words would show maturity, self control, and give her better negotiation ground. But right now she’s bucking the social social expectation that she play nice and not feel angry so showing the anger does a better job of communicating the firmness of her stance.
Stop acting like John, and shaming someone for having a normal emotional reaction to the trauma they’ve experienced. Joyce was almost raped, almost shot and killed, has had her worldview turned upside down, found out her mom is a horrible person, and now her brother is attacking her best friend and showing a lack of love for her. She has the goddamned right to be angry.
Joyce does not have to be prim and proper all the time in order to have worth. Yes, there might be a better way to deal with this if Joyce were a robot without actual emotions that normal people feel getting in the way. But Joyce is a human being.
You can have comment after comment explaining why John is being a complete asshole. And then we still have people who come in and do the exact same things.
If you think Joyce means something bad about Joyce, then the way you think is exactly like the villains in this comic. Why do you read it if that is the case?
*If you think what Joyce did means something bad about Joyce, then the way you think is exactly like the villains in this comic. Why do you read it if that is the case?
I hate the lack of an edit function. You can’t see the entire post at once in the text box, so I miss things.
Helping your friend and indulging yourself are not the same thing. You don’t have to get up and start yelling to tell someone off.
I do agree that it is past time Joyce talked to someone about being drugged and assaulted though. Using Becky as a conduit, rather than helping her is definitely not the solution.
If you think the solution to difficulty dealing with someone is yelling at them in public, I can can refer you to a good counsellor.
You are being quite the condescending jerk right now.
There are times when blowing up is necessary. When you find yourself dealing with emotional abuse – like Joyce is – is one of them. Because if you don’t blow up in a way that makes it perfectly clear that you are having none of it, the emotional abuser will keep on with their abusive behavior. Do you really think for even a second that John would have allowed the conversation to stay focused on helping Becky? Jocelyn already tried to focus it there, twice, and John derailed it back to his passive-aggressive back-biting twice. If Jocelyn and Joyce had refocused it on Becky again, John would’ve kept derailing, or he would’ve attacked her directly again. But he had absolutely no intention of interacting or participating in the conversation in good faith.
You can’t have a successful two-way interaction if the other party has no desire to interact in good faith. This dinner was destined to fail, because John was determined that it was going to end with Joyce back in her place as a good, demure, thoughtless Christian doll-girl, and Joyce is not in a mental place to be able to go back to that – nor do I think she wants to. John did not want to help Becky, he did not want to help Joyce, he wanted to impose his will. When Joyce made it clear she was not going to allow him to do that, he purposefully antagonized her so that he could leave and appear to take the high road.
Frankly, Joyce probably handled it the best she could have for her own mental health – the longer you allow an emotional abuser to work on you, the more they can mess with your head and hurt you. She shut down John’s abuse, and good on her for it.
Drinking orange juice is not the same thing as saving the world from an alien invasion.
Not being the same thing, however, does not mean that the former will in any way prevent you from doing the latter.
Also, nobody should have any expectation that you’ll do the latter anyway, although I guess it’d be cool if you did.
This isn’t Becky’s family though. It’s Joyce’s and that makes a huge difference. It definitely hurts Becky to be rejected by Joyce’s family but Becky doesn’t have to reconcile that, she can walk away. Joyce can’t walk away from these bigots so easily because they’re her Brother, they’re her Mother. She has to deal with the fact that the people who taught her how to treat others, the people she loves and looked up to, are very wrong to the point of being bad people in how they treat others.
Becky is receiving more of the same homophobia she has already decided to face with a care free “GUESS WHAT I’M A LESBIAN” attitude. Joyce is having to face something she’s never seen before from people she never expected it from and it’s forcing her to take sides in her family.
Becky can walk away? To where, exactly. She is homeless, abused, pratically orphaned, penniless and in dire need of support. But hey, Joyce is having a rough time with her family. Let’s just make things even more awkward, instead of driving to Becky’s place and seeing if there is an open window.
Well, that might be more profitable than lunch with John, but Joyce shutting up and letting John lecture her isn’t getting there either.
It’s also far from a guaranteed solution. It might lead to the cops being called and interactions with prejudice small town cops might not be a good thing. And they may simply not find the stuff they need.
Don’t get me wrong. I think it’s worth a try, though climbing threw the window may not be the best approach. I also doubt it’s one John would go along with. Or at least interrupt lunch for.
I didn’t see any lecture, just a very unpleasant half sentence.
The looking for a window tonclimb through was meant to be loght hearted, but, if you need actual suggestions.
1. Get the money for a locksmith
2. Apply, online. For copies of Becky’s birth certificate and any other documents that are freely available.
3. Actually try and help Becky in any way that improve her life,rather than make Joyce feel better. She needs a job, tuition, scholarships, clothes, books, a place of her own and some of those chicken fingers from the kid’s menu.
They don’t need John, but they’re at lunch with him, so unless they’re just going to walk out…
I get that you don’t see a lecture. That there isn’t one is largely because he keeps getting interrupted – by Jocelyne attempted deflection and by Joyce’s growing anger.
1) A locksmith isn’t going to let them in without proof Becky lives there.
2) People have gone on at great length about how this isn’t trivial. It’s probably possible, but the basic Catch-22 of “You need ID to get ID” is a serious problem.
3) Yes she does. And Jocelyne had offered a little bit of help with that before John broke in again to minimize the problem. Jocelyne has a clue as to how much trouble Becky’s in. John doesn’t and isn’t helping. Which is pissing Joyce off because she’s being protective of Becky, especially against her family.
But none of that’s going happen right now, while they’re at lunch, so I guess Joyce should just shut up and listen to John tell her she overreacted to Ross and she’s being too emotional now and they should have just thought before … whatever.
Yes, a locksmith will come to your house and let you in.
You do not need ID to get a copy of your birth certificate.
You can get a copy of your Social Security Card with a Student ID and a Birth Certificate.
If you can’t figure out a middle ground between staying silent and yelling at the top of you lungs, in public, may I suggest counselling. Since both of those options involve ignoring the person woth the real problems, my original point stands.
How do you describe abuse as a bad thing, and then in the same sentence attempt to downplay abuse by calling it “a rough time with her family”?
Does it only count as abuse if you’re a lesbian?
Joyce is coming to the realization that she is in an abusive situation, and that she is entirely dependent on people who don’t care about and want to use and harm her–which is a lot like being homeless and penniless, incidentally.
How big of an information dump are we looking at? Starting with Ryan and moving on through parents hating the atheist friend, accidentally hurting her best friend, the rifle and kidnapping, the defence of the kidnapper and ending with the threat to pull her from school?
Honestly, between Rincewind and The Doctor, it’s tough call on who would win. Though I’m inclined to let Rincewind have it out of sympathy. The man has no other talents, and he deserves to get credit for at least one thing.
I bet nobody in Joyce’s family has ever seen her angry before. I still think John is being an asshole, but this is probably a pretty weird experience for him which is why he’s commenting on it.
I’m pretty certain John is seeing his life flash before his eyes. Hopefully once Joyce explains (most likely in rant format) why she is angry, he’ll take her side against the parents on the college issue.
John’s the one their mother considers a “success.” I wouldn’t count on him to take Joyce’s side on wanting to remain in a secular college where she can be exposed to things like facts.
We all wanted him to be on Joyce’s side a few days ago, but it looks like tHat’s not going to happen.
He’s probably just waiting for her to finish, so he can “calm her down” and thoroughly mansplain her problems away. “All Becky has to do is just get her Social Security number! How hard is that?”
“Well, she has to get her social security number and keep those girl-loving feelings deep, deep inside. After all, it’s not a sin to *be* gay, it’s a sin to *act* on those feelings. So you just never ever do anything based on those feelings, get your social security number, marry some man that you’ll learn to love eventually, and that’s it. Happily ever after. It’s simple really.”
This whole arc just reminds me of the time my (straight, christian) best friend in high school told me & my (trans*, queer, and now best) friend that if she were a lesbian she would never act on it and how totally gross I found that statement but could never figure out how to articulate it at the time.
I had several friends in school express similar views. I didn’t have the ability then to express what was so awful about that view. I eventually managed to convince my dad, though, how gross and dehumanizing that thought was. I just couldn’t really do it as a teen. It took a while to find the words for my feelings.
Hell, he might actually come to Jesus by the time she’s done. Last time she was this mad, she punched a man in the head until even *after* she sprained her wrist; the only thing that stopped her was Becky. Not sure even Becky can stop it this time.
“And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon you.”
It really is fantastic. After all she’s been through the past several weeks and after the misogynistic, dismissive bullshit John just pulled (in so short a time too!) this is great! Go Joyce go!
But it’s not just thoughtless insensitivity. His trying to control her emotions comes from the poisonous misogyny that many fundamentalist families preach and try to instill in their children from birth.
Women shouldn’t feel any negative emotion. And they damn sure better not show it. Their purpose on this Earth is to make babies and keep the men in their family happy. That means having a smile plastered on your face at all times, pushing negative feelings as far down as you can and not letting anyone know you had them. Keep sweet at all times.
This is not carelessness or insensitivity. This is a consistent lesson taught in fundamentalist families that is misogynistic in the extreme and exceedingly toxic to all involved.
John needs a damn hard lesson in how a person is allowed to feel the way he/she feels about a situation or statement. Even if that person is female.
Even if you’re right – and you probably are, but I can hope – I sincerely doubt he’s doing it consciously. He was raised in the same environment as Joyce, and it took her a while to overcome her programming.
One doesn’t have to be consciously abusive to be abusive.
My folks don’t think they’re abusive. My father has, among other things, put his fist through the wall next to my head, threatened to kill me, and who routinely used to threaten me with abandonment for any twitch of anything even remotely resembling rebellion. My mother is so much like Carol it’s eerie in terms of personality. Both of them think they’re strong people who overcame their own abusive backgrounds to be ‘good’ parents.
You can be a seriously abusive jackass, and genuinely not think you’re abusive.
Where Joyce differs from John is that she did a Hank and at least tried to reign in her judgmental side while she learned more about stuff she had the wisdom to recognize she was ignorant in. John is steadfastly refusing to acknowledge that he might not have all the information here.
Well, she struggles to reconcile the moral code she was taught and the real world, finding that her friends and comrades can be good people even without faith and ultimately embracing her own moral code when she finds the old one injust. Sounds like a Paladin to me.
Most of my paladins tend to be people either playing for the stats, or for to be actually decent people. The lawful-stupids tend to play for the self-righteous authority, especially the part where they can say “if you don’t do things my way, you’re down a key party member”.
On the other side of the same coin, dungeon masters who let the latter type of paladin exist are generally bad. There’s plenty of ways to get around the paladin’s code, from loose interpretation to alternate rules to similar concept classes to straight houserules.
Basically, if paladin=jackass, you’re doing it wrong
Exemple of jerk paladin:I capture the enemy flag, I was halfway to my base, I pass one of my paly allies, casts somekind of spell on me which makes me drop the flag, he picks up the flag.
True story
I’d play Paladins more often if DMs didn’t put down the choice of “to be Lawful or Good.” Where the only answer is to take out your character sheet, a lighter, and watch it burn.
Paladins are probably the most on a good DM-Player relationship.
I’d say Good is supreme for a Paladin, unless it’s a direct Law they personally have to follow. In that case, their assumption is that a Law made by the Good god they follow is Good, even if they don’t understand it. Any other law could be an unjust law. Sure, they follow the law if they can, but if the only way to follow the law is to not be Good by how their god defines Good, then they do what their god says.
But I don’t play the game. I just watch others. I just think that the whole point of Lawful Good is that you have a law that you know is Good, and you follow that law. They aren’t supposed to be at odds with one another–that’s why they are on different axes.
I read a thing in a Dragon magazine a while back where someone pointed out that paladins require high Charisma, and a self-righteous jackass isn’t exactly charismatic, or likely to encourage people to follow him or her into battle.
First paladin I ever played (in 2nd Ed) was friendly and cheerful, would happily enjoy drinks with his party members (though never get truly drunk), and would occasionally take out a harp and sing for people. He calmly tried to lead by example, and, while he would protest if his allies did something he didn’t approve of, he also recognized that they had a different outlook.
He saw his vows as a standard to hold himself to, which would hopefully inspire others to do likewise. And if ever people needed him, he would be there.
Self-righteous jack assess can be very charismatic, and get other people to believe in their jackassery (see many politicians) Paladins need both above average Charisma AND Wisdom. That combination is what makes the difference.
The thing most people forget about Paladins in D&D is they operate in a FANTASY world where GOOD and LAW are (Extraplanar) forces just as potent as (if not more than) GRAVITY. And Palandins answer to those forces for their power, not mortal ones. Sometimes that force is embodied by an actual god. Many players and GMs don’t accept this and choose to house rule moral relativism without adjusting the Paladin’s restrictions to match.
Another issue is GMs who create challenges in their games that they think are unsolvable for the Paladin (due to a cynical view that nothing can be Good forever), of course those GMs are jerks because they wouldn’t make a lock a rogue could never pick that is CRITICAL to adventure progression, or constantly try to steal the Wizard’s spell components when they know a challenge will require a specific spell with those components.
If Joyce was a Paladin, and DoA was a High Fantasy world, she could sneak Becky into the dorms’ no issue. Keeping in mind Law and Good are given to her by the benvolent LG version of the Christian God (old man Yahweh, plus son Jesus). What she’s finding as a paladin is that the mortal authority figures she has respected in the past are not actually following some of the deeper codes of conduct expect (various types of compassion), and that in not following those they are not being Good. This conflicts with her Divine given directives, which trump any mortal ones. This also extends to breaking the “laws” of the University Dorm. Again those mortal rules are in conflict with the succor she is Divinely required to provide Becky, to the best of her ability.
Again, if DoA was a fantasy world with god(s) that take direct action in the world. Such as providing tanaglable power to mortals in the form of spells and powers to actually heal major injuries and diseases. Like “I touch you and your Ebola is gone” levels of power.
I had a fun time playing a Paladin of Tyr who would follow her personal code.
Paladin depends on two things: 1, having a party that does not want to tank your Paladin, and 2, having a DM who doesn’t insist on putting you into no-win situations all the damn time to force you into an Atonement quest.
(I’m weird: I don’t mind an atonement quest if it’s something I brought on myself, but if my DM forces it on me through a no win situation, I am going to get pissy very quickly. By all means get my character through temptation, that’s character development. Through lose-lose situation? That’s just lazy DMing).
Really, it just depends on the DM. The DM can make anything happen, literally. I like to say they’re “Divine Rank infinity”, because literally, if the DM wants something to happen in-game enough, it happens. You can play Paladin of Freedom (or Tyr, in your case), you can let people just cast Atonement, heck, houserules just automatically change things. If people are giving your paladin a hard time, for having a class titled “Paladin”, they can reskin/rename. Problem players can be talked to or kicked out. Good players can be rewarded.
I’m gonna tell you the truth, I see Joyce as a multi-classed Cleric/Fighter here. Or maybe a Cleric/Bard, I think there’s a spell to weaponize anger there.
-For me and whoever replied, THIS is why I was leaning towards Zerker Joyce.
-For everyone talking about eyebrows, look at John’s in the last panel. It still kinda looks like he doesn’t really give a fuck about Joyce’s feelings, like a hero.
Three days ago: Christi the mystery person. Whoa. Maybe John is gay. Maybe he’s married to an exotic Asian temptress. Maybe he’s converted to Buddhism. Good things could happen.
Yeah, I went from hopeful two days ago to wanting to punch John in the face. Perhaps I will get to live vicariously through Joyce. She seems to punch people a lot when she’s angry, although maybe don’t use a glass this time.
And the other one who turned out to be an evil clone/demonic sorceress who tried to sacrifice their baby in what may be Marvel’s greatest attempt at “bongoes be crazy” in their entire publication history.
As someone who’s been a waitress, confrontations like this are where we send the bravest of us (and the meanest and/or biggest) to go handle the situation while the rest of us hide behind the counter. Usually with a phone ready to call the cops.
At the ripe old age of 27, my default instinct now is just to believe every argument between customers will possibly need police intervention, because humans are weird.
Yep. Every argument at a table is a big red neon sign saying “violence incoming!” An argument between people at two different tables,especially where they don’t seem to know each other, you try to contain it at first if it’s just words. But once one of them stands up? Run. Just. Fucking. Run. Way too likely that fists are going to fly at any moment.
In the situation in the comic? I hide for a few minutes and hope they calm down and/or leave. If it gets disruptively loud and/or vulgar tell the floor manager and maybe send in that one waiter that looks more like he should be a bouncer, and can charm anyone (only places I worked that didn’t have one of these guys were the places that were so small that I was the only server on a shift.).
If the big charming waiter doesn’t work? You let the manager handle it, walk away and pretend it never happened.
Staff are usually mostly hoping they’ll just go away. Domestics are tricky. There’s a chance they’ll both turn on you, and frankly, I’m not paid enough to handle that.
I think we have a breakthrough, and for something that’s been building for a while. I wonder if Joyce realises she’s not merely angry at John. She’s angry that her life has been completely been upended in the last month. She’s angry at Dorothy and Becky and Ryan and Ethan, and most of all at her family, who have completely failed to prepare her for any of this.
But at the same time, she knows that Dorothy, Ethan and Becky haven’t done anything wrong, and thus her anger at them isn’t justified (Not Ryan though, he sucks), and she’s mad at herself for being mad at them, and it hurts
He was all sexy and gay and kind and respectful and perfect just like he was, and thus forced Joyce to reconsider her asinine, but comfortable, worldviews.
And maybe Joyce really isn’t angry at him or Becky or Dorothy, but I’d find it difficult to believe she wasn’t on some level, given the amount of sudden change they’ve inadvertently introduced into her life. Ethan’s not deserving of anger, and Joyce knows it, but that doesn’t make the anger not exist.
well, he did sort of enable her initial belief that homosexuality is a thing that could be fixed, while they were (briefly) dating. in that respect i could see him as a conduit for her own self-loathing, and on some level she could resent him for that? idk. mental gymnastics are involved and anger isn’t exactly rational.
but really, in the last couple months, joyce’s blinders have been ripped the hell off.
I think she’s okay with Ethan. They had their confrontation and Ethan still wanted to be her friend. Though she may still be angry with herself on that one.
But even if you’ve talked it out, and you still platonically love that person, you can still be angry at them. Often you might not even realize your anger. And anger can often be undeserved and unfair. Like Neeks said, anger isn’t rational. Her subconscious isn’t going to say “oh yay! We talked and it’s fine now. Time to get rid of this excess anger, resentment, and jealousy. ” that anger and resentment can still hang around. Even if it’s just lurking in the shadows for a while.
“…and lo, the ninth gate opened, and Joyce’s rage poured out like lava from Pompeii, destroying everything and anyone in her path, leaving only the sound of children screaming in the distance…”
Okay, John looks less like a sorta passive jerk in the DoT version, and more like he enjoys egging Joyce on, like he knows exactly what he’s doing. He reminds me of some sort of villain, from a Bond film or something.
“Geez, Joyce, you’re so angry.” “I HAD A GUN POINTED AT ME BY THE HOMOPHOBIC FATHER OF MY BEST FRIEND HOW THE FUCK WOULD YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?!”
I pray to God that this is just “I’ve never seen you act like this before” and not “You really should just calm down about almost getting shot at,” but knowing the Browns and knowing that John is apparently the “good” Brown brother (in Carol’s eyes, which speaks unfortunate volumes about him) makes me feel like it’s probably going to be the latter. :\
This is unquestionably “you need to calm down, your anger is unacceptable.” That’s all that John cares about, here. Her anger is his reason to dismiss her, and that’s why he twigged on it so quickly.
Plus focusing on her tone was a convenient way to derail from the fact that he was foolishly judging a situation that he didn’t actually understand. Efficient!
Yep. Men know it all. Women know far less, so we should always defer to the menfolk in our family. Preferably in rank. And as the eldest son, John is 2nd in command of the family and since their not is not physically present, John is the leader. Joyce should be demurely deferring to his judgement. And his judgement, as a fundamentalist man, is likely that women should never express negative emotions. It’s bad for them to be angry or sad or anything other than happy and contented, really. If she feels anything other than that and dares to express it, it might affect the men around her. And we can’t have that. So she must appear to be happy and contented always. No matter what.
Well, her anger and the fact that she’s a woman feeling and expressing it too. Her gender has a lot to do with him disapproving of her letting her anger show.
You know, looking back at this, there’s no reason to assume it’s not both.
It could be one parts “I’ve never seen my baby sister like this and it concerns me” and two parts “your anger is unacceptable, you need to watch your tone.” People are weird like that. They don’t just have one solitary set in stone reason for doing things, oftentimes there’s a lot of nuanced history that makes them who they are and motivates their actions and reactions.
And yeah, I get that these are characters, but they’re characters designed to be as close to real people as humanly possible. And as I’ve say in previous comics concerning Hank, real people are complicated clusterfucks of emotion and contradiction.
I’m not trying to excuse John’s behavior by any means; he’s completely in the wrong here by focusing on Joyce’s anger instead of the reasons why someone who’s usually so upbeat and happy might be angry. I’m just suggesting the idea that it’s complete wrongness driven by more than one motivation.
Not really sure what John expected to happen…okay, that’s not true, I know exactly what he expected to happen. The question now is, now that Joyce has snapped, will he back off, or double down with the condescending rhetoric?
Yeah, absolutely. Since yelling loudly in restaurants is frowned upon, and overall not a very good method for dealing with anger, Joyce has unwittingly given John a foothold to further dismiss her on the grounds of being “hysterical”, “overreacting”, “PMS-y”, etc. And if, in addition, Joyce is understandably embarrassed by her ourburst, that will provide further leverage by which he can control her.
Yes, he’ll double down if he isn’t scared into the after life. But I think she’s beyond embarrassment at this point. She’s not in the back-down zone either.
Also, I don’t think John will say “PMS-y”. It’s a bit too explicit from someone of that background.
I doubt he’d say “PMS-y” as well, given his background and the fact that this is his sister. But it’s the thought that counts, so he can pick any word he’d like to dismiss Joyce’s femininely righteous anger, and it will all be the same bs.
He will also dismiss her for being his “baby sister” and for her “acting like a child.” I wonder if he will use to say to her and/or their parents that she’s clearly not mature enough to go to such a secular school so far from home.
But even that comes down to her gender. She is the “baby sister” and he is the eldest brother. If their dad is not physically present, she should defer to his judgement. And she’s not doing that and is acting out over it. And he will think she’s acting like a child partially because she’s so much younger, so he’s always seen her as a baby, but also partially because she’s a woman. And, you know, women are just so volatile when a proper God-fearing man isn’t there to control her.
I don’t think he wanted this confrontation, I think he’s just being a jackass, I think he actually wanted a quite chance to catch up with Joyce and his inherent jackassery got in the way.
I agree. I think he wanted a nice, sweet family catch-up, but got his hackles up over Joyce making it clear that Becky was coming too. That amplified his assholery (which was likely already there.).
i dont think he’ll give up. he doesnt look scared or even shocked in the last panel. chances are he’ll stop talking but not let it go though. but im guessing he would continue trying to defend himself (from.. dunno?) until jocelyn stops him for real
First, Happy Birthday to our illustrious bard. Next, it appears Joyce is about to sing her new hit: “Don’t it make my blue eyes red.” Percussion will be played on her big brothers skull.
Joyce, what are you thinking expressing a negative emotion??? Doing something other than smiling with your face??? IN PUBLIC???????
This and yesterday’s strip hit pretty close to home for me. I think every girl has gotten some kind of criticism related to not looking happy and pleasant to a man at some point, even if it’s more subtle than this. Something like a stranger telling her to smile because it makes her prettier, being told off for raising her voice when no one was listening to her when she tried to speak normally, or…. Just this. I doubt this is the first time someone in her family has pushed Joyce to permanently be all smiles and I’m glad she’s aware enough now (and angry enough) to say fuck that noise.
Agreed. This is hitting some big nerves for me. And I noticed in the comments that a lot of people were picking up on that misogyny.
It immediately read as that misogynistic, patriarchal, fundamentalist women-must-always-be-happy crap to me, but also had that casual misogyny vibe too. That casual misogyny that isn’t just a fundie-thing. The kind we experience often but many times can’t convince the men in our lives just how misogynistic it is nor just how often we encounter it.
Anyway, I was worried I was reading too deeply or was paranoid or something, then I skimmed the comments and thought “phew! I’m NOT crazy.”
But that’s what that kind of misogyny does. Makes you question your own sanity because you’re so often told that the truth isn’t the truth. “That guy wasn’t being misogynistic by telling you to smile. He was just trying to cheer you up.” “So that guy grabbed your ass. So what? He thinks you’re hot. Take it as a compliment.”
All our lives we’re told to shut our eyes to what’s right in front of our faces.
Well, of course you thought you were crazy! You’re a woman who thinks a man did/said something that deserved an angry response- you’d have to be delusional or stupid to think that! Are you on your period or something?
But yup, exactly. I’ve seen a lot of people in the comments blaming fundie culture for this and I’m sure it’s worse there, but I’m not from that culture and I’ve definitely still experienced it. We’re trained to ignore it and focus on the more concrete and extreme examples of sexism, for a few reasons, but it still exists. It all comes down to woman existing to be appealing to men- and not many men like being told they’re not being appreciated right now.
Yeah but Joyce herself doesn’t have any more right to this anger than Becky, after all it was BECKY this shit happened to, not Joyce.
Joyce was a bystander at best, and then she made the choice to throw herself into the mix by insisting Sal take her after the chase and then her choice to punch Toedad.
What in Hell has Joyce got to whine about so loudly. I just dont’ get it.
If it was about Becky it would be, but it’s not.
Joyce had her world view tuned upside down, don’t a lot of college students. I did.
Joyce had a close call, when the guy tried the date rape drink -but her friends were there to rescue her and baby her for weeks afterwards.
So did I and pretty much said well that was scary and now it’s over: and never drank an open drink again. Only cans and never set them down. (pour out some soda add a touch of my favorite booze).
I’ve never had a gun in my face, but I’ve been shot at by idiots. I lived thru it, it’s done.
I guess I’m just not too sorry for Joyce. My sorry is reserved for people who need it – like Becky.
Excuse me, what? Because you reacted calmly to attempted rape, that makes anyone who gets upset or even traumatized about it (as you said in an orphaned comment down there) a crybaby? Seriously?
Yes, your sorry is so reserved for Becky. As you demonstrated so well yesterday by repeatedly taking John’s side and minimising what she had to deal with.
And if the comic was about Becky being upset that Joyce was so angry and that Joyce’s anger was distracting from her own problems, you’d have a point. If it was about Joyce demanding that her own traumas were more important than Becky’s, you’d have a point.
But it’s not. It’s not even mostly about Joyce’s problems, though her trauma definitely feeds into her anger. She’s mostly angry that her family is dismissing Becky’s situation or even sympathizing with her attacker.
Anger is not a finite resource with claim rights. Joyce doesn’t need a “right” to be angry. All she need is human empathy and love for the best friend she grew up with.
That aside: John is also being an ass to Joyce as well as Becky. Joyce just need basic self-respect to be angry at this guy treating her like a child while acting like one himself.
Right. Because having a gun pointed at her by a man who was like a second father to her growing up, watching her best friend get kidnapped, and now being condescended to by someone who ought to love her for daring to have negative feelings about her experiences, she doesn’t have a “right” to that anger. Bullshit.
Dude, when somebody robbed my car I was angry enough that I wanted that person to die in a drone strike, preferably from a missile made of his hollowed out family.
Now picture somebody doing that to your body. While you’re present. They just prove to you that you’re not safe and there’s nothing you can really do about it.
Man, it’s almost as if nearly being shot by someone you trusted and almost having your best friend kidnapped by her father as he uses his religion as a shield and justification, a religion you also have of course, and watching your best friend struggling to stabilize her life afterwards, might make somebody bitter and angry!
Get with the program John. Joyce may be the youngest, and your baby sister, but she IS allowed to be angry and bitter sometimes.
Part of the reason she’s so angry has to be residual from last night too. We never saw Joyce snap at her mother, and it’s probably because…well, she’s not ALLOWED to. That’s her mom. She has to bow her head and be quiet. But with a brother, especially the brother she knows least…? Joyce can snap at him and speak up. And man, that has to feel so GOOD. To finally get to yell the things she’s been wanting to.
I ALMOST feel bad for John, but then he also brought this on himself by not considering Joyce’s emotions. I don’t think he’s really asked her about anything other than her arm. No ‘how’s school’, no ‘how are you holding up’… augh. I’m glad Joyce isn’t taking that shit lying down.
Coping is relative. Becky seems to be coping better because she’s not yelling in the middle of a restaurant. But we have seen that Becky puts on a mask. She intentionally makes jokes, laughs, and shrugs things off. It may look like she’s coping better, but masks are dangerous. Becky’s more confident, more optimistic, and more sure of herself. Joyce is less so, she’s used to things being black and white. Joyce is confused, upset, angry on behalf of her friend, and fed up. Part of the reason Joyce’s anger is to this extent is that she’s been holding back a LOT of anger for a while now. Now she’s snapped. I imagine when we see Becky snap, it won’t be any better.
OK, first of all, Becky’s not coping -well-. She’s using her normal coping mechanisms, sure; but they sure aren’t ones that are healthy in the long run. The day when she can finally let down her guard is the day when she’ll be crying all day; and -that- will be a healthy coping mechanism. Right now, all she does is deliberately pushing that day further and further away; and the more she pushes it away, the harder it will hit her when it finally comes.
Second of all, this isn’t a fucking pissing contest of who’s got the biggest trauma. And people are damn well allowed to deal with their traumas in other ways than you are. Yeah, I saw your comment above how you dealt with your shit. I’m genuinely surprised that someone who did deal with that shit is so utterly dismissive of other people’s ways of dealing with things.
Finally, Joyce would not be so fucking angry right now if John hadn’t kept pushing her with his stupid tone-policing. In fact, she was starting to cope better with things as it was. Her conversation with Hank in the car was a good one, for example. Before that, she made some headway with helping out Joe. What keeps dragging Joyce back down is people like Carol and John.
Also, this times a lot. Trauma is different for everybody. Just because I was about to cope with something that happened to me as a child (and I say cope loosely, because basically I just had to accept it and move on) doesn’t mean I expect anybody that has ever been sexually assaulted, nearly or otherwise, to just accept it and move on. Some people can’t, some people have their trust shattered. Joyce saw that boy’s face all over when she would walk around on her own. She had a nightmare where he showed up and trust me, having a nightmare that addresses that subject shakes you up. Can’t we just agree that Joyce and Becky have both been put through the wringer and deserve understanding and compassion?
Becky is definitely bottling everything up, not coping well. Becky’s coping mechanisms are similar to mine, and let me tell you a secret. Wacky antics/dramatics don’t work in the long run. Becky’s either going to snap like Joyce just did or start getting bitter.
John is such a fucking scumbag. Infantalizing and dismissing Joyce so utterly. Nothing she has to say, nothing she thinks or feels or experienced could possibly matter to John as much as the fact that she’s unacceptably angry here. Nothing is as important as her tone. I can’t even guess at how many times I’ve seen this BS in the wild.
I’m glad I’m not alone in this. My siblings would do this dumb ish too. “Ugh why do you look so sad? Sound so sad?” Maybe bish, cause I am?! Try to process that!
I don’t know a single thing about John, so I’m trying really hard not to go “Hey, John, women can be angry too you dipshit”.
Instead, I’ll just say… Hey John. Maybe try thinking about what your sister and her bestfriend just went through before judging her for… what? having human emotions? What is wrong with you.
/bitterSaki
I feel bad for Bex and Jocelyne. Sitting next to people who are fighting is bad enough, but when they’re both people you care about, it’s just… Agh. I wanna hug every woman in this strip.
Worse, they’re in a booth, and Joss and Becky are near the wall. They can’t run away without attracting attention, and that’s the last thing they need right now.
Yeah, people are too quick to jump on John. Sure he’s likely to turn out to be a jerk, but so far all we’ve seen is him falling into familiar scripts that everybody has internalized in our culture. Good guy or scumbag, I think it’s reasonable to assume he’s not prepared for this conversation.
I’m really hoping that it turns out that John was purposely making Joyce angry, so that she would release her stress and not end up stabbing their mom or something. Probably isn’t going to happen though.
It’s definitely ignorance. The kind of ignorance that can only be derived from the smug self assurance that you are, as the superior gender, closer to God. The kind of ignorance that allows you to dismiss anything a woman has to say out of hand simply because she is a woman and therefore does not matter.
When you grow up in a bible thumping household, you get to experience a lot of this first hand. Joyce is just starting to figure out the hypocrisy because her mom and oldest brother are showing her that “unconditional love” only applies as long as she’s an obedient, servile, mind-slave.
John doesn’t know it, but he should be looking for a bomb shelter.
Oh, it need not be gender-related. I’m a dude, and I’ve still met those guys. There’s something that makes them superior.
Heck, while I never had the “closer to God” thing, I struggle with this sometimes. Ironically, it’s particularly when I’m angry and I don’t realize the inherent contradiction.
Probably more gender-based than anything. The culture they were raised in says women should be demure and submissive and men are the decision-making, infalliable voices of logic and reason.
Becky’s parents are an extreme example, but John’s demonstrating these tendencies.
That would be a terrible idea anyway, especially without supervision and a concrete plan (and no doubt he’d go for things he’s heard upset her throughout his life rather than in the last week, both because of familiarity and to not traumatize her).
I mean, really, she only had to deal with her best friend coming out/being homeless, having a rifle pointed at her by a man she’d known her whole life, watching helplessly as her best friend was kidnapped at gunpoint, watched another person fall off a moving vehicle and nearly become roadkill, see the vehicle her best friend was in flip over, violently confronting said best friend’s father, and all this after previously being drugged and nearly sexually assaulted. All of this contributing to a changing worldview where she starts questioning everything she was always so sure of, including the unconditional love of her parents.
I mean, really, isn’t she being just a little over-dramatic?
The only way to prove that is if we see Jordan. If Cacturne’s right, he’ll have blue eyes. Unless he went too far the other way, even by our standards.
My mom was abusive, and she used to pull this, ‘Do you realize how angry/snotty you sound?’ all the time. It’s emotional abuse, trying to make the other party feel unreasonable.
Mm, same, and as well as that, putting emotions on you when you’re not at all angry or anything, just so they can be mad- something I could totally see Carol doing.
I just realised that John’s trying to avoid accepting Joyce’s emotions as legitimate. “Just listen to yourself, you sound so angry.” As if Joyce couldn’t possibly be angry. I don’t have enough info to understand John’s thought processes, so this could be one of a few things.
Does he think Joyce doesn’t get angry? Does he think women can’t/shouldn’t/don’t get angry? Or the worst answer, does he not understand why Joyce could possibly be angry?
I suspect it’s a slight combination of the three, and none of them say good things about John’s ideas of society. I’ll reserve judgement until I see his reaction to this verbal ass kicking.
there might also be a touch of not thinking that anger is a valid/healthy emotion to express, and should be repressed at all times (cuz bottling everything up is super healthy). thus her sin here is not just having the negative emotion, but also showing it.
As I understand it, wrath is generally a form of harsh penalty being inflicted by the furiously angry, in a potentially indiscriminate manner. It isn’t necessarily violent or physical, but it is nearly always in some way extreme, disproportionate in magnitude to a perceived offense, or misdirected – and nearly always represents an abuse of personal power.
Like the other deadlies, wrath can be said to lie at the “overdoing it” end of an imaginary scale measuring the relative degree of a person’s “indulgence” in a range of behavior.
It just so happens that, thanks to the originating theological worldview blaming individuals who have little in the way of personal power for the tragedies that befall them and their social circles, the idea of “deadly sins” is synonymous with the concept of “personal vices” or “personality flaws” in general, and even the most moderate and controlled “indulgence” in behaviors that (if they were to be taken to their most extreme) reside lower on the same imaginary scales that each of the deadlies are measured upon.
It probably shouldn’t be surprising that, having been incorporated into the structure of their religious dogma, and absorbed into the mainstream of their culture, “good Christians” tend to view any exceptional deviation from their prescription for subdued emotional behavior as signs of having “fallen from the path”, or sinful.
If one were to think in a more rational manner than this, it’d be easier to say that the deadly sins are only deadly if you overdo it – the same sort of logic that dictates that a substance’s toxicity is dependent on the dosage consumed.
but seriouslly, I bet this conversation is going somewhere like this:
Joyce: Of course I’m angry! Since I got here everyone has treating Becky as a fucking criminal! She’s Becky! Doesn’t anyone remember the girl who has been my best friend for my entire life!? The one you saw grow up with me and you know is such a good person!? And she was just attacked by her father! Hell, I aways thought we were the kind of people that helped the ones in need, but instead everyone acts as if it was her faut, we can’t even show empathy for my best fucking friend!? She is a girl who was thrown out of her family for no fucking reason!!
Reading the comments has made me slightly confused. Is there a reason we’re hating John? Some of his comments might have upsetting interpretations or subtext but Joyce keeps cutting him off. We don’t actually know what he was gonna say. He might not be a douchebag. He could just be an adult justifiably upset with his sister less than stellar attitude during a long overdue reunion. Joyce basically threatened him. I mean this is probably wishful thinking but I don’t like jumping to conclusions. Plesse key mean in if I’m missing something.
To my knowledge, you’re not. This can cut one of two ways, normally towards bad. I, too, hold out for a subtlety that Willis was not able to impart that will help explain the appearance of Jonathan talking down to Joyce.
Well, telling Joyce that punching a person that threatened them with a loaded gun is a “pretty extreme” reaction, then implying that the fallout of Toedad’s actions are Becky’s fault seems pretty reasonable cause for being upset at him, for a start.
See this is what’s a little confusing and I fully admit I could be giving John too much credit but does he know the full story? If just hearing the story secondhand probably from his mom punching someone in the face is an extreme reaction. As for Becky he might not be implying fault at all. She should know her S.S. # or how to get it cause she’s 18. So he could just think that’s strange and she should know these things before she gets a job and lives on her own instead of y’know trying to steal Jocelyn’s identity. I’m just giving the benefit of the doubt to a character i’ve only known for 4 or 5 strips. He could legitimatly be a complete privileged asshole.Just my thoughts on it.
I don’t see how anyone could not know the kidnapped-and-threatened-with-a-gun detail without their first question being “So why’s he in jail then, exactly?”
We already know that the bless-his-heart-he-thought-he-was-doing-the-right-thing brigade is at work in this circle. Having trouble seeing why this is a question, to be honest.
It’s really bizarre that people think kids raised in abusive, controlling households will have access to important documents that allow them their independence. I fled home with no ID, no bank card and no money because I didn’t know where those things were plus I never thought that was weird because in my experience “that’s how it was”. I had to get my NIN number later (UK SSN) and luckily I had been taken in by my bio dad so had a birth certificate as identification. I lucked out there, not everyone ends up with someone who has their documents (or copies of them). As soon as you hit 18 you don’t magically acquire life skills you know?
Practically speaking, with Ross in jail and Becky’s mom dead, she shouldn’t have too much trouble gaining legal access to her house as it is her legal residence of record. Regardless, her SSN shouldn’t be to hard to get from Social Security Administration.
There’s a lot of Catch-22 involved in that, though. Sure, it’s Becky MacIntyre’s legal residence, but how does she prove that she’s Becky MacIntyre, and thus the legal resident, without any legal ID? How does she get legal ID without her SSN or birth certificate? How does she get her SSN or birth certificate without legal ID or access to the house?
I don’t buy the “only heard about it from his mother and so only knows a distorted version of the story” argument. Even if it’s true, what does that say about him?
If you knew your little sister was involved in some kind of altercation that left the other guy hurt and in jail, wouldn’t you try to find out more about it. “Shooter on campus” is going to be all over the local news at least.
Also, Joyce has shown few signs of aggression up until now. I have an older brother, and one time, he had to pick me up from detention after school. He asked me, “Why’d you get detention?” and I said, “I hit a guy.” My brother, making a logical leap about what he knew about me and how out of character that was, asked, “What’d he do?” He assumed, rightly, that there had been provocation, and assumed that I had a good reason for doing what I did. He took my side, until he had a reason to disapprove of my action. He let me be innocent until proven guilty, because he’s my brother, and that’s his instinct.
John, meanwhile, upon hearing that Joyce, a girl who’s shown few signs of aggression up until now, has punched a man she’s known her whole life, assumes that Joyce over reacted. I don’t care what story their mother fed him, I don’t care if she told him that Toedad showed up with bunches of flowers and chocolates for everyone, as soon as Joyce says, I hit Becky’s dad, an alarm bell should’ve gone off in John’s head.
This is his sister. He’s SUPPOSED to be on her side. He’s supposed to give her the benefit of the doubt, and he’s not. He sided, without asking a simple question or two, with Toedad, he assumed that Joyce’s actions were not justified.
John’s an asshole.
Well, that’s still a bit on him if he only heard the story from Carol. We know that the story was reported on in the news, so the mention of Ross having a gun should at least be public record even if carol left that bit out.
As far as the SSN, Becky’s comment to Jocelyne read to me as pretty clearly a joke, which is part of the problem with his response, as if he’s expecting the worst of her. And yeah, she’s 18 so should probably have been TAUGHT her SSN, but she was homeschooled and Ross was pretty dang controlling; not giving her an SSN has pretty effectively left her in a helpless position without him.
(To be honest, I wouldn’t be surprised if a fairly large portion of 18 year olds don’t know their SSN or know where their card is, especially ones that have never had a job or car like Becky).
Basically in fundie sects, a woman is supposed to be all cheerful and demure. Never showing negative emotions. So here you have John trying to emotionally abuse Joyce by telling her she should listen to her tone, expecting her to be all calm and happy.
He dismissed Joyce’s aggression towards the Gunman, who pointed a rifle at her and Becky.
He overreacted to Becky asking for Jocelyne’s SSN, completely ignoring the situation Becky’s in. And then (the real kicker) started saying something that seemed to be leading to blaming Becky for her current situation.
John’s either completely out of the loop or an utter bileclog.
John’s reactions are typical of a man indoctrinated in fundamentalist Christianity. Women are there to raise the kids, have hot meals ready on time, keep the house clean, and never EVER have a thought or opinion of their own.
I can’t speak for anyone else but I hate him because I’m projecting those attitudes I experienced as a child onto him, and so far he’s been pretty textbook.
Er…and his fucking condescending, dismissive attitude is any better? He’s showed no interest in doing anything but diminishing Becky’s trauma and subtly blaming her for it, and tone-policing Joyce for being pissed about it.
I mean hey I’m seeing legitimate reasons to hate John here and I’m 90% sure I’m wrong especially after hearing John’s the “favorite” and the connotations that might have. But people worried about Hank and he was great. I don’t know. I’ll eat my foot if I have to.
“Great” might be hyperbole but you get what I’m saying right? He wasn’t evil church dad there to whisk Joyce away to be indoctrinated like some thought.
The thing is, Hank’s public opinion arc went “oh god this is going to be bad,” to “actually he’s pretty awesome, go Dad Brown!” to “oh dear we may have been premature.” So no…he wasn’t as bad as we thought, but those fears weren’t altogether wrong. John may end up coming around, eventually. But that doesn’t make our suspicion towards him wrong.
Right. People worried about Hank up front, then as soon as he appeared and started acting reasonable they at least moderated their worries.
People had cautious hopes for John up front, but as soon as he appeared he started dashing those hopes.
Did you read through yesterday’s comments? Cerb and a lot of others had many points about it. I think at best you could say ‘well, he’s saying stuff all of the shitty people say, so it’s not really a John thing’
…not saying anyone who’s calling him a judgmental jerk now is a judgmental jerk, just that it’s valid to give him that benefit of the doubt, for now, kinda. (not exactly a ringing endorsement :P)
For people who aren’t intimately familiar with fundamentalist Christianity, there are a lot of possible reasons John could be acting how he is, or explanations for the way he has said things. But for those of us who are — we see that this all falls directly down the lines of certain characteristics of fundamentalists, and see exactly where it’s going.
If just anybody in the world were saying the things John is, it would be a little more open to interpretation. But for the favored eldest son of fundamentalist Christians, talking to his younger sister, who is testing the boundaries of their upbringing? Yeah, there is next to zero chance this is anything but him being a condescending prick about her anger.
Especially in fiction. At this point, if he isn’t really being a condescending prick, then it’s a deliberate fake-out by Willis. Eventually the wacky misunderstanding will be revealed and everyone will hug.
shockingly, the focus if yet again on the poor ally
like… I keep holding out hope that we’re going to focus on how the offended party wants to handle the situation (Carla, Becky) but I keep being disappointed by how hard this is on the poor allies
I mean we have been getting focus on Becky? I mean this specific scene is certainly focused on Joyce. And Becky’s first reaction to many things tends to be deflection, and trying to keep things light hearted, so the effects this has on her isn’t always apparent. But Becky certainly plays a bigger role in the story than just existing to teach Joyce a lesson about tolerance.
Are….. are you implying that, somehow, Joyce also hasn’t a reason to be offended, too?
Like.
I get the direction you’re coming from, but uh, Joyce and her friends were also seriously threatened in this situation?
And in THIS specific scenario, the focus isn’t supposed to be on Becky (or Carla because she’s not even physically present), but on Joyce herself, coming to grips with a lot of very harsh realities about her own life and family.
Besides, so far, we’ve also gotten snippets on Becky’s takes and next steps here. They were literally in preceding pages. We know what direction she’s going in (no word yet on how Carla is going to handle Mary, but that will be in due time I imagine). I imagine as time goes on, we will be seeing more on those fronts.
But for now? The situation is Joyce dealing with her terrible family.
No, they meant Carla’s story was another instance of the story being about how hard somebody being bigoted was for someone who want the target of said bigotry. They weren’t saying that Carla was supposed to be in this scene specifically.
Yeah, I feel the same way about Carla’s story last chapter as Kole, which is why I’m super down for more Carla appearances in the next few months, especially the upcoming one with her in welding gear.
But even in THAT instance, the other people involved are…. Ruth and Billie? Who Mary was also blackmailing and generally being horrendous to? Remember?
Not only that, but putting up a happy-go-lucky facade, which is intentional for her. She’s said as much to Dina. In fact, at this point Dina probably knows her better than Joyce because Dina’s the only one Becky has opened up to about being scared and upset – Becky probably will have her reaction, once she’s back with Dina because with Dina she doesn’t have the cultural baggage of “must be more self-sacrificing than you to show you how much I care” thing that kind of dominates Becky and Joyce’s relationship to be frank.
I mean, Joyce is the main character. She kind of has to react to things. Besides, Becky reacts to problems either by being loud and obnoxious, which she already did, or by clamming up. It’s Joyce who’s in full on bloodrage mode. She’s the one who’s going to yell about things.
Carla is starting to get more focus, so I hope that helps you out. Wanting to see more representation is totally legitimate and I don’t want to, like, come off as trying to take that away from you.
Not to mention Joyce was also stressed out over her mother wanting to pull her out of school.
I don’t think Willis’s writing is as shallow as you think it is. It’s just the way his characters handle things differently.
So this is more of a reply to everyone replying to you:
Yes, there are in-universe reasons for how these stories have played out so far but that doesn’t change what Kole said. We’ve still got multiple story lines where we have seen more of how bigotry is affecting someone other than the target of the bigotry. To use the Batman vs Superman trailer as an example, there may be a reason to have all those people at that Day of the Dead celebration reaching out to Superman like that but it’s still yet another instance of a group of brown people appearing worshipful before a white person.
I still think/hope this will get addressed later. I think bringing up Becky’s SSN problem could lead to a broader discussion of how this has impacted her. I think Wilkie is trying to avoid other bad tropes, like making the marginalized characters launch into an essay to teach the bigoted character not to be bigoted immediately after being wronged by them.
I know what Kole was saying. I’m saying that we are getting a storyline about how this all affects Becky as well. It’s just that it’s not as easy to tell because of the way Becky handles things compared to how Joyce handles things.
(Granted we haven’t been able to see Becky respond to how John is treating her yet but the scene isn’t over yet. It’s a limitation to the fact the story is being told 5-8 panels at a time a day)
I guess the way I see Becky’s story is that she’s dealing with it in a Becky way while Joyce is dealing with it in a Joyce way. If we had Becky getting super loud and angry here it wouldn’t be in-character for her, because she deals with her problems by being wacky and flippant, but it absolutely is for Joyce.
Even if I disagree and do think Becky and Joyce’s story is being well handled and giving equal focus (and even beyond that, Becky’s practically dethroned Dorothy as the deuteragonist of the series), I’m pretty much always going to sympathize with Kole’s argument, though. I don’t think it’s happening here, but it’s also something that happens so, so much that I genuinely can’t blame folks for feeling the way they do.
I reaaaallly want to see when Becky and Dina get back together. I feel like Becky is holding it together by the skin of her teeth and when she gets back, Dina is going to be her safe haven.
Which practically is the archetype of how Joyce shot down John’s “advise” of how Becky can get hold of her SSN.
Remember, the whole reason Becky’s here is she wants to be the ally for Joyce when visiting her family, not needing Joyce as ally for a visit to La Porte; a visit she has no other motivation to do – excluding a potential option to getting access to her SSN, which seems a rather unlikely option after learning (as a reader – Becky may have known this before) that her house is locked up.
How I really hope the next few strips go. Joyce starts floating in the air and speaking Latin.
Jocelyne: (pulls out revolver) Dammit John, you summoned a demon
John: how the hell did I do that!?
Jocelyne: They’re connect to extreme fear, anger and sadness, someone gets angry enough and the demon has a window in.
Becky: How the hell do we stop her?
Jocelyne: We have to banish the demon, best way to do that is to have Joyce remember a happy memory.
Becky: Hey Joyce! Monkey Master
(Joyce fires fireball, Becky ducks)
Becky: crap didn’t work
Jocelyne: Memories too recent, problem is all her happy memories are connected in some form to her anger, happens a lot when a parent says something stupid…however there is one more way…
John: How!?
Jocelyne: She needs to hear something shocking, something that will completely change her world view.
Becky: but I already told her I was a lesbian! Several times!
Jocelyne: Some of us have our own secrets Becky, (rolls out) Hey, Joyce…I’m transgender!
A burning shadow with flaming red eyes rises out of Joyce’s body and she drops to the floor.
Demon: No! I am the pain, the horror, the destruction, the end of all…
Jocelyne: (points gun) yeah….and I’m Jocelyne. (fires bullet through the demon, sending it back to hell)
Jocelyne turns to leave, dropping some money on the table, but just before she leaves, she turns to John:
Jocelyne: Hey, John, be nicer to our sister, one of these days she just might surpass us.
So angry, so bitter, so…human. That is what you are objecting to, John. That Joyce is acting like a normal human being with normal emotions, instead of acting like a fundie stepford female.
Which really says something bad about John.
John, you sanctimonious prick. And even if someone explains your sister’s anger to you, you will just dismiss it as illegitimate. However, your traumas, not matter how trivial, are of Biblical importance and must be addressed immediately and effectively as such. (I’ve met enough of these people over the years, both male and female.)
he is a prick, but I don’t know where your getting the idea that he thinks his problems are more important. So far, none of his issues have been mentioned what so ever.
It’s projecting. Not even like I’m saying it as a negative thing. That’s literally the only way I can read that. I know someone like that so he has the same faults as those people, because people are all the same with no divergence in their behavior besides one extreme or the other.
This is so unnecessary. Joyce deserves to be angry, she does. But this isn’t the place, and John isn’t the one she really should be angry at. She’s been angry at Ross, and her mom, and the world, and angry for Becky. She’s bottled that up and now she’s exploding at John. He’s been rude, but he didn’t do this to Becky.
All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.
Then again other than being dismissive about the incident, he’s the only person so far that adressed and brought up ways to solve Becky’s lack of a SSN that were all shot down because at that point he was already labeled evil.
No, he hasn’t. He has done jack fucking shit. ‘It should be written down somewhere, which somehow means you have access to it, even though there is literally no way for you to know where, and probably don’t have access to it, even if you do’ and ‘you should have thought of that before your life was upended by the psychopath trying to kidnap you’ aren’t good advice. They’re victim blaming, plain and simple.
“It’s written down somewhere” is not, in fact, ‘a way to get your SSN’. It’s expressing the hope that her card physically exists. THIS IS NOT IN ANY WAY MEANINGFUL HELP.
Especially since he said that while hijacking Joss’s actual attempt to engage Becky about her situation, which would be likely to lead to real practical advice.
No one else even questioned her about it yet. And Joyce cut him off. Maybe he hadn’t helped yet but he certainly started bringing up the questions and statements one would if the goal is to make sure a girl has a social security number.
Joyce cut him off at a point after he was done talking about the Social Security number. And since then he’s been focusing on telling Joyce about her bitter and angry she sounds, in a dismissive tone.
Jocelyne asked Becky about her situation, seemed ready to give advice.
John then stepped in, accused Becky of actually planning identity theft (talk about not giving people the benefit of the doubt!), then gave condescending pseudo-advice, and actively dismissed Joyce’s pointing out that it wasn’t considering Becky’s actual situation.
Dina asked if Becky has a little card, which was not very helpful but more helpful than John. (and also a LOT more respectful and said in a context that invited Becky to ask for help rather than to be put down)
True, he did bring it up, but it was by jumping on Becky for what was most likely a joke. The closest thing to advice he gave her was that it had to be ‘around somewhere’.
And when Joyce pointed out why the most straightforward options really wouldn’t work for Becky, instead of backing off or giving advice on how to obtain your SSN with limited-to-no documentation (which to be fair he probably wouldn’t be able to do in this setting without pulling out his phone to research), he went to implying Becky was to blame for failing to plan ahead for extremely adverse circumstances she had no reason to expect were coming. He’s not quite Carol, but not the best showing for John here.
Evil? Are we only painting with black and white? While John’s ‘advice’ does not solve the issue of Becky getting a (or her) SSN it is still advice that is quite frankly- necessary. ‘But I’m disadvantaged and oh poor me’ isn’t going to be an acceptable defense if she were caught using someone else’s soc.
Just because John isn’t offering an immediate solution should certainly not paint him as evil. Surely he was given -every- opportunity to provide a well thought out response with a raging Joyce jumping down his throat.
Is Joyce mad? Sure. Does she have the right to be? Yes. Is she doing what every human being does when they are angry, hurt, or frustrated? Sure. But right now she is being overly sensitive to a pain point simply because it is abrasive. The point is not wrong and while that may be upsetting… it is the wrong thing to blow your top over.
This is exactly the issue with 2/3 of the comments I’ve seen in the recent releases. People are applauding Joyce for just losing it. This is fundamentally wrong. No sex, no ethnicity, no (insert whatever else here) has the right to simply lash out indiscriminately simply because they are (or feel) owed it. It’s not empowerment. It’s petty and childish. You want someone to listen? Hold yourself to a higher standard. Meh.
Wow, advising her in no way at all was completely necessary?
Well, I’m glad to know I provided Becky with some necessities now, too. I’m also not providing her with anything.
He literally gave her no advice. He said nothing.
Antagonizing an angry person and then topping it off with a “You sound angry” is pretty much asking for them to unleash the full force of their anger on you.
Yeah, BUT, continuing with the bottled up anology, you don’t continue to agitate an already shaken person. Implying to an angry and (if he’d take the time to notice) visibly traumatized person that their feelings are silly is both a shitty and dangerous thing to do.
Oh, I disagree. John is trying to silence Joyce, tone-policing her.
Ross is a part of the tip of the iceberg. It’s a tip that includes abuse of LBGT children, abandonment, kicking them out of the house, and murdering them.
John is playing the part of the rest of the iceberg. That 90% of the iceberg can’t pretend it’s not related to the 10% that pokes out of the water. It’s all the same iceberg. And, it’s all the subject of the fires of Joyce’s righteous anger.
I dunno why I phrased this as a hypothetical. It’s a technique my mother and sister have used to make me angry (which is bad because I’m not allowed to be).
And here, my esteemed colleagues, we have quite an interesting phenomenon. Jonathan Brown, being shown on the page, has crossed the fictional barrier and become a reader of this comic. Not satisfied with trying to invalidate Joyce’s anger in comic, he’s going to invalidate all the legitimate reasons Joyce has to be mad at him.
Seriously, dude. you’re doing the very thing that John is being called an asshole for. He’s not just being rude. He’s showing a fundamental lack of love for Joyce at this point. He is very much acting just like all the other people who Joyce thought she could trust.
Because this has never been about Becky. This is about Joyce’s entire life and everything she knew burning to the ground. And Jon is sitting there with a bellows, fanning the flames.
You know what? I take this back. You aren’t doing what John is doing. You are at least validating some of her anger. There was actually a now removed comment that was actually doing what John was doing.
And when I say “this has never been about Becky,” i mean that her anger has never been because of what happened to Becky specifically. Her issues started well before that–it was just the catalyst that sparked it.
I don’t mean she’s not legitimately concerned about Becky. In that sense, it is about her. She is indeed defending Becky here. Hence the reason she has a right to be angry at John. Someone being rude to your friend who just went through trauma is a legitimate reason to be angry.
John is being an asshole… but I do agree this is kind of unnecessary. Consider instead:
Joyce @ normal volume: I am angry, John. And if you can’t back off and respect the fact that I’m angry, after everything I’ve gone through in the past week, then I see no reason to bother having lunch with you.
I mean, I get why Joyce couldn’t keep it together like that – she has been through so much, poor coping, John’s provocations etc. But it seems to me like John is less the source of this anger, and more the tipping point in a long list of offenses to Joyce’s well-being.
Unfortunately, when you aren’t allowed to recognize or express anger at all in your whole life so far, you can’t practice good communication about your anger, such as calmly stating that you’re angry. (Can you imagine what would happen if Joyce said this to Carol? They wouldn’t validate her feelings, they’d tell her that anger is sinful and honor thy mother and all that, at best.) Joyce has no way that she is allowed to have or acknowledge her own anger, and is therefore way more likely to explode at the tipping point jerk.
That type of calm response is way beyond what I would expect from Joyce at this point in time – it’s something you have to learn how to do, and Joyce has only just learned that she can feel anger, and that anger can be justified. And I don’t really have much sympathy for John here, but I wouldn’t exactly call Joyce’s response to him proportionate. This kind of explosion is, above all, a method that’s not very kind to herself.
Ah! But I totally didn’t consider that her anger might actually be considered a sin by some people in her family! I mean, anger is not a pleasant emotion to experience and, as a woman, I’ve felt that kind of discomfort in does-an-acceptable-way-to-express-my-anger-to-others-even-exist. But I’ve never thought the feeling itself was something that anybody considered somehow morally wrong. That’s really… messed up. I mean, it’s one of the most basic and universal building blocks of the human emotional experience. And I know men in practice aren’t held up to those same standards, but are they at least nominally not supposed to be angry either?
Sin of depression?? uggggh.
Man, I wasn’t told this at all, but I still feel guilty about being depressed (because I’m supposed to make everyone happy, I decided that was my job as a kid, because kids make really poor life choices). Nobody needs religion adding to that super-unhelpful idea and I’m glad they chucked it.
Anyway if anger is part of Wrath, then is the going Christian idea that well we are all sinners, and sometimes we screw up, and we need to make amends as best we can, and also yay Jesus because our feelings won’t send us to Hell after all? (I wasn’t raised Christian; please forgive my very probable oversimplification of Christian beliefs.)
Yeah. I did a bit of digging around to refresh my memory, and apparently the deadly sins were first conceived to regulate the monasteries and nunneries; it was only later they were reduced to seven and distributed to the masses. Depression was on that list because how could you POSSIBLY be SAD when you’re SO close to the GLORY of GOD. Ugh.
Wrath, of course! I always though wrath wasn’t just getting angry, but when you let your anger make you cruel or violent. How silly of me! Must never be angry! Must never be sad! That is definitely a reasonable expectation of a person!
And, yeah, I think you’re on to something about how we conventionally see sees sadness as vulnerable and anger as powerful, and how that maps onto gender roles. It’s interesting because sadness need not be vulnerable, and anger is often more debilitating than empowering.
Just want to point out that the seven deadly sins are entirely a Catholic thing. I didn’t even learn about them until I met a Catholic. Mostly, we were taught that all sins were equally wrong.
You also have to realize that Catholic teaching on sin is different. There is not such a push on never being allowed to sin.
I don’t know about their dogma, but in wider society, I think men are socially allowed to be angry, but not sad/hurt.
My pet theory is that anger seems powerful, and sadness seems vulnerable, and men must always be more powerful than women in a patriarchal system. (And people who aren’t quite covered by a rigid gender binary aren’t allowed to exist in the first place.)
We know that Joyce is not allowed to feel sexual, either, which is definitely another one of Joyce’s basic building blocks. It’s a problem.
This is also a really nice reminder of way back when, they were having sushi, and Becky tried to get Joyce to admit to being angry, and Joyce wouldn’t. Looks like she figured it out.
Yesssssss. I’m happy that she got that anger out. Wouldn’t have done any good to keep it bottled up. And sometimes we just all have to yell at someone. Unfortunate that it’s happening in public, but what can do you. Anger doesn’t conform to timetables, it happens when it happens
I really hope Joyce gets to rant before she is cut off, and that if her anger is (or at least currently feels) all Becky-related, she gets to name some of the stats she learned in Gender Studies to point out that her family’s attitude actually does damage (not that they’d necessarily care, although Joyce is generally adept at also referencing the bible).
Facts from her Gender Studies class would pretty much cement her mother’s resolve to get her pulled out of a real college. That’s not “fact” to them, it’s liberal lies, schemes of satan to corrupt the innocent, or whatever flavor they’re calling it these days.
Fundies are astoundingly resistant to and occasionally frightened of these facts that normal people take for granted.
I see what you mean, and relatedly am curious about them letting her take gender studies at a secular school. On the other hand, I want to see her yell about how many Beckys are homeless because churches don’t take them even though (various biblical quotes and themes) and how dare he condescend her.
I hope she gets to express herself too. She needs to. Getting cut off by her brother would be terrible but what I’m REALLY hoping for is that she doesn’t cut herself off with a shocked “……………I…am angry…” and go back into Conceal Don’t Feel Mode. Let it out, Joyce.
*SIRENS* WARNING, RAGE LEVELS OFF THE CHARTS! We have a Type 2 Angry Person here, folks. Stand back, and you may manage to avoid being splattered by blood and gore.
These strips with Joyce’s family make my heart hurt. It hurts for Joyce and Becky and Jocelyne and all the non-fictional people I’ve know with families like this.
Or maybe, unlike her brother, Jocelyne is able to pick up basic context (“Oh, hey, you and your best friend recently survived a shooting and attempted kidnapping!”) and not be an asshole.
I suspect Jocelyne understands a lot about anger. She has a lot of reasons to be angry at the world, herself, and I don’t doubt she’s had her share of traumatic incidents just for being who she is.
It’s like I’ve said before: John is used to sweet, perpetually-cheerful and upbeat Joyce. He really doesn’t have a frame of reference for interacting with a Joyce who feels hurt, misled and betrayed.
Um Joyce, you may want to calm down, you appear to have popped some blood vessels in your brain from sheer fury and the blood has leaked into your eyeballs turning them red, you may want to see a doctor about that :p
i am giving this comic a standing ovation. Joyce’s anger is so friggin valid. really bad, and violent, things happened to her. those things were done by someone she trusted as an authority figure. even more things happened to wreck her world view. not that she should stay angry forever, but right now? YES. FEEL YOUR EMOTION, JOYCE.
I don’t go on about my life here. But there are some horrible things here. Should that mean that you no longer have the right to be angry about things in your life?
Literally everyone else in this comments section understands why Joyce is angry. The fact that you cannot is just ignorance on your part. And given that Willis has been leading you by the hand to learn it, and you do not seem as socially clueless as I thought you were, it’s clear this is willful ignorance on your part.
And I can’t believe you would actually do the very thing that everyone has been calling John an asshole for. And I know you’ve been reading the comments–I saw your copy and pasted replies. (Enough to get you banned on pretty much every other board I know, BTW.)
I’ve got more to say, but it really fits better under your other comment.
I love this. It’s exactly how I felt after 5 years being celibate because I was gay and I was ok with that. Then one of my good friends committed suicide and everyone said that was better for him because he was gay and could never be a Christian. And I realized and I lost it. Hooray best ever! No one had to die for this
WTF? That doesn’t even make sense in twisted fundie logic. If he can never be a Christian, that means he went to hell. How in the world is that better for him? And if not being a Christian doesn’t mean he went to hell, then why in the world would being gay be bad for him?
The only reason I might not be quite as angry as I should be is that it’s so stupid I’m not sure I’d understand.
No, see, it makes perfect sense. If you’re gay, you can’t be a REAL CHRISTIAN!!!, and therefore you might as well kill yourself because you’re going to hell anyway and what is life worth if you can’t partake in the GLORY OF THE LORD, FUNDIE JESUS?!!!?!
Is John so taken aback by Joyce’s anger (or angry tone/eyes, as it were) because Joyce is a woman or is it because this is entirely unlike the sunshine and rainbows (Eeeh, maybe not the rainbows) Joyce that he knows.
Because I have trouble believing that a grown-ass man has never witnessed an angry woman before, even if he is a fundamentalist from Indiana.
I think the ‘taken aback’ part is because it’s so out of character for Joyce. But trying to talk her down by invalidating her feelings and acting like her anger is unseemly or uncalled for is the sanctimonious fundamentalist part.
Basically he’s shaming her for having legitimate emotions. He’s acting like one of those assholes who tell women “you’d be prettier if you smiled” which is even worse coming from your own brother.
I’ve never understood how someone could think that would make another human being smile. That’s like saying, “your anger at your classmate for calling you a penis person every day this semester is invalid because you only have this semester to deal with them before you graduate.” And expecting the person to not be angry.
As far as I’m concerned had John not done it, someone else should have. They are in a public place and while in that venue should act accordingly. By your logic is telling someone to hang up their phone in a movie… phoneshaming? Phoneshamers. How DARE they tell someone when they can take or make a call.
Joyce might be angry but that does not grant her a pass on her actions.
yeah, hes being a douche probably unintentionally. he does need to learn to not be a douche and when hes being a douche though. i understand joyces anger because my family, especially my older brother, enjoys provoking me all the time. not to mention my old friends who bullied me each day. i understand her and her anger here. but i can also not judge on if john is a sexist, a christian, a homophobe or a transphobe or anything of the like because those arent the things theyre talking about right now. hes clearly being a douche right now and having a bit of the “im above you” attitude but i wont say hes a sexist homophobe yet even though its most likely that thats willis plan. its just in my nature to not judge people all that quickly
I’d say he’s got more of a general Just World Fallacy going on than any specific bigotry. People like him are a reliable support group for actual active bigots tho.
he could still be secretly gay though but its not like willis to portray gay characters as bad. im gay and some of you probably think im bad so there you have your reference if you cant imagine a bad gay person
What are you talking about? Plenty of Willis’s LGBTQ characters have done bad things. I mean, people here can go all day arguing whether Ruth is a bad person or not.
(As whether John is gay or not, I would guess no at this point, simply for because of the lack of empathy for Becky’s situation. Regardless of his sexuality though, he’s certainly bought into the worldview that it’s “unbecoming” of a woman to ever show any sort of anger outwardly. That’s essentially what he’s saying with that “So bitter” line. And really that worldview is sexist.)
I believe what they mean is portray a gay character in an unsympathetic light. I don’t think he’s portrayed any of his LGBTQA characters as wholly in a good light all the time. Well except maybe Dina but… She’s fucking Dina.
Eh, give her time. Dina has previously shown to be really antagonistic towards Joyce when it comes to religion, and in the Walkyverse she described the afterlife as baseless superstition while she was already dead.
At Galasso’s she took Joyce saying “maybe God made everything” as a personal attack and launched into a tirade over it.
When Joyce got a flu shot she picked a fight over how Joyce shouldn’t be getting them because she doesn’t believe in evolution.
Then at the party she basically manhandled Becky and screamed at Joyce like she was a leper, telling her to go away because “she can still save this one.”
Well, facts and science are ALMOST as important to Dina as cereal is, so it’s kind of understandable. Or maybe Willis was Bstrawmanning” autistism-spectrum scientists? He does that sort of thing really often.
Dina got offended at the invalidation of evolution, not the concept of God. FFS. Nearly everyone in the cast is a Christian. Becky still strongly believes in God, and this wasn’t a problem (What /was/ a problem was spouting creationist canards).
I don’t think Dina was antagonistic towards Joyce because of her religious beliefs so much as because of her anti-science beliefs. Maybe that’s a distinction without a difference.
Also, can you please direct me to the flu shot strip you are referring to? Dina doesn’t strike me as an anti-vaxxer.
IIRC it was more an argument that according to Joyce’s beliefs, since the virus didn’t evolve, there was no need to get a new one every year year. This year’s strain should be the same as last.
Not at all an anti-vaxxer claim, just pointing out a logical conclusion of Joyce’s belief.
If that were it, sure, but given how Dina snapped at her earlier at Galasso’s and then later flipped her shit on her at the party for daring to approach her in the midst of her “saving” Becky, coupled with how she thought about the afterlife in the climax of It’s Walky!, I feel like there’s more to it.
It’s Walky! is a seperate thing, though. It was written in a different phase of Willis’ life, -his- beliefs have changed and evolved since then, and these characters are literally different people. Sometimes dramatically so. The party scene was for the sake of a punchline, so I’m not sure you can take that seriously. And if Galasso’s is your idea of somebody “snapping”, you need to scroll up and look at -this- strip.
Just read the flu-shot strip. She didn’t say that Joyce shouldn’t be getting a flu shot. She asked why Joyce had chosen to get a flu shot if she didn’t believe in evolution. I agree with Heavensrun. I think Dina was legitimately surprised by Joyce’s presence. Besides, given Dina’s difficulty understanding social cues, I’m not sure it would even have occurred to her that such a question would be seen as hostile or that she would be able to understand Joyce’s reaction if it were.
Ruth was downright -reprehensible- when we first met her. We got to see her depth and sympathetic nature later, but at the start, she was an unrepentant bully who was pushing Billie around, stealing and vandalizing her property, and physically assaulting her. It wasn’t until later that we got to see her caring, vulnerable side.
Joyce’s dad, while not Queer, went through a similar arc. He was pretty awful at the start of his first full appearance during parents weekend, to the point that most people were floored when he showed up, supported Joyce, and accepted Becky almost immediately.
Willis rarely starts off by showing us every character at their best.
She’s defintely super screwed up. Being queer doesn’t make that go away. I don’t usually waste my hate on people who are trying to be better, though, (although they have to actually -be- better before they get my respect,) and I can’t help but feel sympathy for her struggles with depression.
(forgot to add this part and I feel it’s important)
As far as I understand, I also struggle with depression and, to an extent, suicidal ideation. There’s lots of times where Ruth talking about how she can barely comprehend being happy are points where I feel like my thoughts are being directly transported onto the page. Having said that, if I did the horrible shit Ruth has repeatedly and maliciously done over the course of the comic, regardless of the origin of those actions, I would deserve to be in jail. I resent this notion that Ruth’s mental health issues excuse her from being a violent abuser, or even remotely justify it.
Lots of people struggle with depression, addiction, and suicidal ideation every day of their lives. Most don’t end up being violent shitheads.
They don’t excuse it or justify it, they -explain- it. Also, jail? Really? She got physically agressive with somebody else who started it, she stole a relatiely inexpensive momento and cut it up a bit, and she kissed somebody on impulse once and immediately backed off. That’s all good reason to cut somebody out of your life, and it’s good reason for her to be fired from her job, but jail???
Yes, jail. If I systematically harassed and assaulted someone and then capped it off by slamming them into a wall and jamming my tongue down their throats I’d fucking belong there.
I think that would be interesting because it is a thing that happens, buuut I’m not really sure if I want John’s personal redemption arc to stem from him being Queer, and that now he’s a Good Person we can’t hate for his actions because of it.
Okay, seriously think I’m gonna catch flak for this (again) but I honestly don’t see John being an asshole right now or trying to invalidate Joyce’s anger. Sure it’s not exactly his best moment, but seriously. I see a concerned older brother trying to come to terms with the transformation his baby sister has just gone through. His once sweet innocent sister is now bitter angry, and, if we’re being quite honest, hateful. All of these are terrible emotions for anybody to have on such constant display as Joyce is right now, though I understand where they are coming from. While i don’t really like it I realize this joyce-splosion needs to happen if she’s going to begin any sort of recovery. Bottling in emotions is never good, especially the bitter/angry/hate trifecta
The way John’s being an asshole is in his utter failure of empathy. His concern isn’t for Joyce’s (and Becky’s!) situation, but for her behaviour – she’s breaking the mould of the ‘good Christian woman’ by being angry and bitter (that’s a dog-whistle code word in evangelical circles, by the way, at least when applied to women). If his concern were actually for Joyce’s wellbeing (of course, in his head, he probably conflates that with her outward behaviour), he’d recognise her anger as valid and probably share it. Instead, all he’s done in the conversation so far is to dismiss and belittle the problems they’re facing – he seems to be unable to think outside his comfortable little bubble and understand why things that don’t seem like a big deal to him are, in fact, a Huge Friggin’ Deal to Joyce and Becky. His assholery isn’t in directly causing harm, but in contributing to it through insensitivity and dismissal.
If he wants to help Joyce, that’s great! I’m sure he doesn’t think he’s being an asshole. But the way to help is by empathising with her and helping her to work through her emotions, not by telling her she shouldn’t be angry. (And note that his only interaction so far with Becky – the actual victim – has been to tell her off for the SSN thing.)
This is the guy who tells abuse survivors and activists of all stripes that they need to ‘calm down’, ‘be reasonable’, not to be ‘confrontational’. For a better rebuttal to that than I could ever write, refer to MLK’s Letter from a Birmingham Jail.
Wall of text, but I hope it helps you see where the problem is.
That’s a beautiful explanation. It also helps me with another parallel: John is an “All Live Matter” FB poster. He’ll read a story about a black teen getting killed by police, and comment some form of, ” well, if they’d have just done what the officers told them to, they’d be alive! Don’t break the law, don’t get shot.”
Naw I get that he utterly failing on his empathy roll right now but i just don’t see john as the complete asshole everyone else does. I also feel like it’s necessary to focus so much on woman part of Joyce’s “good Christian woman” persona. Not because I’m trying to be sexist but more so cause I think bitter anger is an emotion John would speak against no matter the gender, because holding on to those emotions like Joyce is now can destroy people. I mean I totally get where she’s coming from and its completely justified, I also used to be a bitter angry mess. Plus from the way the conversation has gone so far I almost get the feeling that he and others, don’t know the entirety of the story. It’s not a great moment for John, but it had to happen for Joyce to realize just how bitter she’s become.
P.S.
This only like my third time commenting and it totally makes me happy that I can voice a different opinion from the masses and not get slammed with abuse and name calling. You guys are great lol.
Joyce’s problem with anger right now is that it’s both unhealthy for her and completely justified.
John on the other hand is at best dismissing the justification for her anger. More likely it really is a gendered thing, since dismissing and attacking women for anger is a common thing, even more so in fundamentalist circles with strong gender roles. Like the Brown’s.
It’s not made explicit here that he’s thinking that way, so if you’re not familiar with it, it’s easy to overlook.
Yeah I guess I’m not so familiar with it. I mean I grew up in similar conditions to Joyce, religious fairly sheltered family, non-denominational church. Wasn’t homeschooled though so I guess we weren’t super fundamentalist. I don’t know I’m just hoping this is just a bad moment for John trying to understand the radical transformation his sister has gone through. Having been in Joyce’s shoes being bitter and angry, for several years I might add, I can only imagine what it’s like for those on the outside who see this person they used know become something entirely different.
The thing that bothers me about this is, if it was genuinely a matter of seeing his formerly sweetness and light sister blow up like a nuke, shouldn’t he be reacting differently? Concern, contrition, trying to get to the bottom of why she’s acting so strangely or even make peace? Instead we get this annoyed condescension.
As I said: A careless, insensitive idiot who isn’t even able to realize that HAVING A GUN AIMED AT YOUR FACE could be emotinally scarring.
I don’t know what kind of missionary work this guy does, but I hope he isn’t allowed anywhere near real human beings with real problems… “Geez! So your parents are dead, and your are a homeless, starving leper who sleeps in a cardboard box and you eat what you find in trashcans? So what? Why are you so angry, again?”
John. you bloody idiot. It is YOUR sister and she needs support.. not this “holier than thou” behavior. i Wonder if he did do it to his siblings.. using emotional abuse so he can feel better? I am not so sure John is a truly nice guy. Remember assholes can hide behind a nice guy mask too.
I think there might be more to it than that. I mean, think about it like this. Not only is he the oldest Brown, he’s also probably the one with the most religious upbringing. I mean, given that he’s already stated he does mission trips, this is hardly surprising.
However, I don’t think John is intending to be the bad guy here. I’m thinking that he not only got a RUSHED version of the story, but also an EXTREMELY biased version. I get the feeling that he’ll actually be pretty pissed when he learns what really happened.
I’m sure he’s not intending to be the bad guy here. No one intends to be the bad guy. Even Ross didn’t intend to be the bad guy, he was trying to save his daughter.
He’s trying to help, first by making sure the lesbian knows not to steal SSNs, then by using his manly wisdom to show how simple the problem is, then by trying to keep his little sister from giving in to the sin of anger (especially of anger against an older male relative).
See, very helpful and not at all the bad guy.
And in that kind of a fundie christian world view, that’s all true. It’s just that that kind of world view is horribly toxic.
Beyond that, what kind of biased version could he have gotten that wouldn’t even get him to check the news for more about what happened to his little sister? How trivialized must it have been to not even want to look?
He got the “official” story from their mother. Any media sources are going to have a godless liberal bias, just telling lies about Toedad, the Noble and Just.
I’m sure their church has already got a formal story in place so they can scream “media bias” and “religious persecution” if anyone tries to question how someone from their church could have been driven to commit the crimes of assault/battery, attempted murder, kidnapping, etc. etc. etc.
Yeah well, if he’s far enough gone that his world view is that screwed up, then fuck him. It’s no longer an excuse for his approach to Joyce, but a problem in itself.
Well, sure. That’s a big part of why Joyce is so angry. She’s had her nose rubbed in it, hard. She’s seeing for the first time in her life how badly warped her upbringing has been. As she said in one of the panels back before she left for the weekend, it would mean that everything she’s ever been told is a lie. Just because she sees this and is trying to come to terms with it doesn’t mean that members of her family or their church are going to suddenly see the error of their ways.
I’d just like to point out that anger is technically not a sin. However it is an emotion that everyone should avoid from holding on to the way Joyce is. On another note whose to say that every detail of the incident was reported 100% accuracy. I mean I’ve seen plenty of “news articles” that are only 10-15 sentences long, or shorter, some of them major news events. I don’t think it’s fair to hate on John for a bad first impression. To be even more honest I think John’s actions are actually the best actions. Because honestly sometimes bitter and angry people just do not respond to others compassion and empathy. Sometimes someone needs to be the asshole for the moment and point out the seemingly obvious so that the person themself can come to terms with it themselves.
Joyce isn’t “holding on to anger”. Joyce is getting pissed off and terrified again and again, without a chance to recover. The happy fun gun times incident was less than a week ago. Yesterday, her mother spent the evening harassing Becky. Last night she overheard her parents talking about pulling her out of school.
Like Ross did to Becky. Let that sink in for a moment.
If you want to help Joyce, don’t try to force her to get over her anger yet. Help her get into a safe situation where she can start to deal with it. Keep threatening her and Becky and keep echoing Toedad and there’s no way that’ll happen.
You’re misdiagnosing. Joyce isn’t “bitter and angry”. Joyce is traumatized. Her world is falling apart. The things she thought she could trust are betraying her. If Carol had supported her. If John wasn’t being an asshole. Then she could heal.
Those are just the final nails in the coffin. These emotions have been brewing inside of Joyce since the beginning of the semester. Her world has been slowly falling apart already and these are the. I’m not trying to approve of John’s actions but I understand and agree that Joyce’s anger is justified. Yes John is being an ass right now, intentionally or not. However I do still believe that sometimes being an ass is the best way to help people. I get the feeling Joyce would have responded to empathy be being reclusive. See I don’t think Joyce has even let herself believe that she’s angry, and that by John her mother’s asshole-ish-ness, she’s snapping and letting it all out.
All I’m really trying to say is, yes John is being an ass now, however I don’t think and would like to believe that his entire character is completely an asshole.
Oh I don’t think his entire character is completely an asshole. I don’t think that of anyone. I’m sure even Ross had his good points, well hidden though they were.
It may be his entire role in this storyline, though that’s a different question.
I don’t think he’s helping here though. I don’t think Joyce needs more abuse and antagonizing. I think she needs support and reassurance, particularly from authority figures. Her interaction with Hank was a blessing for her, though quickly undermined by Carol and the fact that Hank didn’t really come to her (& Becky’s) defense.
She’s terrified that her family is really like Becky’s dad and nothing that reinforces that is going to help her.
Maybe. Maybe she needed a bit of both, I’m hoping that once he realizes how hurt she is and the entirety of why that he’ll be more supportive like Hank was and I’m hoping that Hank will also show his supportive side more too. I’m just hoping this family visit at least turns out to be the start of some sort of healing for Joyce.
I hope you’re right. In both cases. I just don’t expect it.
If there’s healing after this, it’ll come from having a better where she stands and who she can count on. Learning to stand on your own is part of healing, right? Cause it isn’t going to be her family. Except for Jocelyne, of course. She’s awesome and will help where she can, but she’s got her own troubles.
Basically, from the first we knew of this family visit, I’ve just been hoping she makes it through without too much damage or a major rift.
At this point, I’d be down to hoping Carol doesn’t make good on her plan to pull Joyce out of college, except that I know for meta reasons that Joyce will be back at school where the rest of the story is happening.
At least some form of healing is starting with her admiring to her anger. I believe at least Hank will be a pillar for Joyce when it comes down to it, Jocelyne too.
This is the a major fork in the road of Joyce’s life and I’m at least glad to see she’s at least starting down the right path with admission, rather than bottle it up a little more and spiral into a devastating depression
it still doesn’t excuse his behavior to his sister WHO clearly is suffering from the experience with toenail dad. he KNOWS Ross did bring a gun to a PUBLIC place. he can’t have ignored that fact Ross could have killed people to take Becky away. So John can’t be that stupid can he? it feels like he is doing this on purpose to feel better about himself. i just don’t know..
I understand Joyce’s fury. she feels betrayed perhaps?
A hand comes in scene to Gibbs-slap John. An attractive dark-skinned woman in black leather shows up.
Christi: Seriously, I can’t let you go anywhere. Every time I do you devolve and start shit. What do you have to say for yourself?
John: Sorry mistress. Shall I kneel on the floor to repent?
Christy: Not right now. We will wait until we get home. Hello you must be Joyce.
Joyce and Becky:…
Jocelyn : Oh hey, Christy, nice that you could make it.
No problem. I’m the “s” in a D/s relationship, so this kinda struck a cord with me. Nothing wrong with either men or women being submissive in a safe, sane, and consensual relationship. Ditto for dominants.
My boyfriend and I dabble occasionally, I tend to be the D when we do. I’m not quite attached to the subculture enough to have big warning flags about jokes, though.
My initial response was to was to hope that John’s comment was born out of concern for his sister. After all, the last time he saw her she was a relentlessly cheerful person. It’s probably pretty jarring to see someone he remembers cheerfully innocent so angry. I guess I’m hoping every other person in this comic isn’t a complete asshole. On reading the comments and rereading the strip, the “Just listen to yourself” kicks it over into tone policing and assholery on John’s part. Doesn’t help that I pretty much look like the Browns right down to the Sandy blonde hair and blue eyes.
On one hand, it’s kinda clear that John is being set up as another antagonistic member of the family, and constantly saying “let’s just wait a bit to see more of his side of the argument” isn’t really cutting it anymore.
On the other hand, I can’t help but notice how vaguely everyone keeps on talking about the Gunman Incident. Almost as if a certain character doesn’t know the whole story, and the narrative needs to keep things vague so that people can argue.
I don’t understand why he’s pointing this out. She’s angry, yes. Ssssooo? Why is that this big of a deal to him?
Also, a little trackback question about John. He said his wedding was in India. I don’t know shit about religion so I’m just shotting in the dark, but wouldn’t that be kind of a problem for a fundie, considering India’s vastly different religious culture, with hinduism being most dominantly present and all? Like, wouldn’t a fundie want to get married in a primarily christian country?
I don’t think it matters whether the country is primarily christian or not. My assumption is that he married a Christian Indian woman (possibly Indian American) and that the wedding was there because it was easier for him and his family to travel than for her and hers.
Alright. It’s just that the first time John said he got married in India I assumed this meant that he was more forward thinking and didn’t have the sheltered fundie brain syndrome like Joyce’s mom or toedad, and that’s why it was no problem for him to have his wedding in a primarily hinduist country. But I guess I gave him too much credit there.
He’s pointing this out because he’s desperately trying to protect his worldview from the possibility that he is, in fact, wrong and being a giant douchenozzle and that’s why Joyce is angry.
Like, there are two possibilities: either he’s fucked up big time, or Joyce is being womanly unreasonably and will surely come back to her senses if he manages to make her self aware.
Of course he’d be holding on to the one that makes him out to be a victim.
You know this thing where women can’t express discontent or anger or be confrontational because that’s seen as authoritative and a threat to men’s legetimate aurthority as handed down by God itself?
Yeah I haven’t heard of this either. I know some people say women aren’t supposed to swear cuz that’s not womenly enough, but I haven’t heard that about showing anger or other negative emotions.
I REALLY hope that her main emotional reaction to this is to be proud of Joyce and happy she has at least one overwhelmingly-likely-to-be-supportive family member.
I mean, I’m pretty sure she already knows what John is like. It’s Joyce who’s the new addition to the recipe here.
Yeah, you’re right about Joyce being potentially supportive, that must be a relief. She might be lucid enough to have known exactly how John was like too. But sometimes it still stings pretty hard to face the insensibility of someone who’s supposed to be close.
Jocelyne had to go through it alone, at least regarding her family, while still avoiding to stir it up too much. It must’ve been really hard (and still be). Maybe she has mixed feelings about the fact that the statu quo won’t be possible any more? Perhaps coming out is a step closer now?
I hope she’s proud of her little sister. And Joyce always wanted a sister so I really look forward an eventual bonding of those two.
Brace yourself. It’s likely to be awhile before we get there and the initial reaction is likely to be a lot more painful.
Joyce’ll make it, but her track record on first exposure to new things isn’t great.
Depends on when it happens. After Becky, it’s likely that any reaction she has will be full of A) loving support, and B) Overwhelming guilt for a million little careless comments over the years.
If it happens -now-, it would also blow up Joyce’s world -even more- to have the one family member that is actually supportive turn out to have been keeping such a big secret from her. Joyce’s reaction would be complicated.
Joyce is not good at first reactions, but always comes around. (I’m especially thinking of her reaction to Ethan – poke poke, ‘but you seem normal’.) Luckily, Jocelyn knows pre-college Joyce pretty well, and will probably expect and be patient with Joyce’s initial foot-in-mouth ignorance. I can hardly wait.
That said, Jocelyn also knows that Joyce is terrible at keeping secrets, especially from her parents, so that Jocelyn be unwise to confide in Joyce or Becky if she wants to keep her closet remotely intact. So, I think it’s somewhat more likely that Jocelyn gets outed or finally says what she can’t take back, vs. she gets to stay in control of whom she tells and when.
Also, at the moment, I don’t think that Jocelyn is proud of Joyce. She might be a little jealous later that Joyce gets to say stuff because Joyce isn’t closeted. But mostly Jocelyn is probably anxious at the moment, because she really does not like conflict, and here’s a big pile of conflict.
Why do so many people need to excuse awful behavior? Just because he isn’t actually waving a gun around doesn’t mean John isn’t being a huge jerk. Don’t tell me his jerk behavior is subtle either, because it’s
We’re not even dealing with a real life situation here. I am ripping this off from an earlier comment about Sal’s mom being racist, but do we really think the moral of this story is going to be that Joyce’s anger is out of line and Becky actually should have thought about her SSN before getting outed?
People want to believe everything is fine until it starts bubbling over and you’re staring it in the face, whereupon you ask “why weren’t you ever honest with me?”
But..but…what if it turns out John recently had to pull a gun on a lesbian woman himself, only he really didn’t want to, but he had to because she was going to blow up a train full of people as part of some feminist agenda? And then bystanders punched him because they didn’t understand and wouldn’t let him explain because they were anti-Christian bigots? And now he’s trying to be sensible and support his sister, but the whole thing was so traumatic and he just can’t move past it?
What then? Would that be enough for you to excuse him for completely dismissing his own sister after she was held at gunpoint, or do we need make up some even more remote possibilities?
I think it’s because we want to live in a world where people aren’t tremendous douchebags. We don’t want our friends to have to deal with jerks, either. Because, it sucks to deal with jerks, and it’s upsetting to have met one and been impacted by their bad behaviour! So we’d really, really rather that the jerks are not jerks after all.
Unfortunately, there *are* jerks in the world, and all our mental gymnastics don’t make the jerks stop being jerks, it just gives them more room to behave with impunity.
Cue someone chastising Joyce for “making a scene”… apparently in the comments…
Like, yeah, it’s an uncomfortable conversation but it needed to happen. Frankly, with Carol’s talk about pulling Joyce out of school, it’s probably best it happened around witnesses. Plus a repressed, 18 year old letting her anger show to her family for probably the first time (possible exception of defending Dorothy during Family Weekend, but even then it wasn’t to this level) isn’t really going to consider the ramifications of getting pushed to the brink.
Also Toe Dad wouldn’t let Becky have a phone, you really think he took the time to explain SSNs to her? She was home schooled, he and the rest of the fundies were her only sources of education until college. No one went over SSNs when I went to public school in the last two decades. I got lucky to have parents who wanted to prepare me for the real world, not shield me from it. And if asking (probably as a joke) for something is the same as stealing then I am a master criminal.
Also, Happy Birthday, Willis! I enjoy your comic!
This. The complete dismissal of strong emotions. That is what I will never miss of having been seen as a woman (although some things are harder now than when I was percieved female). Although now that I’m running on a testosterone system, I do understand why a lot of guys have trouble concieving how you can be intense like that. That being said, he’s still a complete douche.
Well, same thing here for privilege. I never would’ve anticipated the amount of privilege I have lost. Especially since so many people deny the fact that this is even possible. But I’d never go back either.
I gained from this mounds of compassion for men. Then again, you probably don’t come from the same place as me. I come from a nation that was almost annihilated many times and whose men have withdrawal tendencies (as opposed to acting out), because repression, and whose women are historically more educated and hence had a lot of control within the marriage. The biggest issue here with men is withdrawal and suicide, as opposed to acting out and agression. And the big problem with that, is that the feminists here try to equate our situation with the US and France, causing even more withdrawal and a lot of frustration.
A very simple microagression example : a man walks on the sidewalk, sees someone coming his way, goes on his side of the sidewalk. Men act the same, but women will often simply put themselves bluntly in the middle of it, bumping into men who don’t step into the street to let them pass (there are cars…), not even looking at us, and then acting like we’re at fault. I have friends who cross the street when they see a woman coming their way.
It’s one of the more interesting side benefits of transfolk becoming more open. We’re getting stories of people who’ve seen gender issues from both sides and we’re getting them in both directions and they’re all basically confirming what the feminists have been saying for decades. There’s no real parallels with racial privilege or anything else.
Yeah, it’s one thing in a discussion of privilege to talk about it and not unequal treatment and another to be able to say, no, for serious, bro, let me tell you about the viscerally different way I was treated when I lost that privilege personally.
Probably also a big reason why trans women tend to be very loud feminists. Not only do we viscerally understand what it is to lose the automatic regard society gives to those socially read as male, but we weren’t socialized as kids to shut up about it lest we be considered “angry”.
Which might explain some of the self-justification going on in some turf’s minds, unfortunately, because differences are assets.
But it kind of hurts me when I read stuff like “the automatic regard society gives to those socially read as male”… I just hope you understand that it’s not an universal law, in the sense that it’s not true to the same degree everywhere. Because in some societies the negative aspects outweigh the “positives” ones, be it the microagression burden or the fact that you are seen as expendable, or as a latent criminal. For example.
I don’t deny at all the female struggles, of course. But I hope we’ll hear more of men in the next years, so that everyone can broaden their perspective and work together.
Honestly I’d prefer keeping that quiet. I’ve ben bullied pretty hard by some women for expressing those things, I wouldn’t risk that happening on here. Made me quit social media.
Re Becky asking to use Jocelyne’s SSN, I think youre r exactly right:
OTOH, Becky very likely knows NOTHING about SSN thru no fault of her own.
OTOH, viewed as a joke, that is very much a Becks-style joke
If you want a creative excuse, how about this one?
When John said “mission” he wasn’t indicating that he was a missionary, he was indicating that he is an Agent of SHIELD. And he’s had encounters with Bruce Banner before, so that’s why he’s worried about her getting angry.
Does….does John really think Joyce isn’t allowed to feel angry? Last time I checked she’s human and humans feel anger. They especially feel anger when their best friend’s dad goes after her and her girlfriend with a shotgun because he’s denying and try to supress a critical part of who she is. Joyce has had her world view shattered since the beginning of this comic, and John doesn’t think she has the right to be angry? Who does he think he is?
He’s the Eldest Favored Son in a fundamental christian family. How *DARE* the youngest sibling – worse, the youngest *FEMALE* sibling – attempt to correct him *in public* when he’s so clearly perfect and beyond reproach?
And yes, John really things Joyce isn’t allowed to be angry. She’s a woman. She’s supposed to be dainty and demure in all things and in all ways when in the presence of her betters.
Honestly, I don’t think he thinks she isn’t allowed to be angry. But he’s never -seen- her angry, in her entire life, which he has been present for. He can’t understand that she -is- angry, so it must be a breakdown in communication, because angry Joyce isn’t a thing.
Next few strips will spell out whether that’s right or not.
My experience with this kind of Christianity is that anger, itself, is considered a sin.
Yes, it’s abusive in it’s very heart. Yes, it stifles people from being able to express even the slightest injustice at anything someone in authority does. Yes, that’s why it persists. Yes, the people who do this think they’re actually doing the right thing.
John knows nothing about what’s happened to Joyce since she left for IU, but instead of asking her about her life, instead of asking her about her anger, instead of keeping his yap shut and listening, he gives her a pile of patronizing poop. Heck, basically, he’s doing Nurse Ratchett. (Is this how he treats Christi?)
A suggestion: instead of telling Joyce/Becky/et al what they “should” do, try saying: “This is what I [think that I] would do if I were (Becky/Joyce/et al)”.
I once was in Joyce’s situation: my parents obliviously pushed me to do something that was at complete odds to who I was, and didn’t hear me when I calmly told them how I felt and how important it was to me and then attacked me for being ungrateful for what they were doing “for” me, at which point I snapped and told them off as Joyce is doing here, first time, perhaps the only time I yelled at my parents (I was a ridiculously good eager to please kid who swallowed his rage till it choked him). AND IT WAS GOOD THAT I DID. They finally heard me and got it and apologized and we had a tearful reconciliation, because they were good and tried and learned, like Hank I think. I wonder if there is any chance that John will react as my parents did–I hope so. Either way, though, Joyce is SO real to me right now.
Ditto. I remember the moment when I finally snapped at my parents after all the shit they had put me through and it was similarly dismissed. Hopefully John won’t follow through with their follow-up, which was to sidestep the reasons for the anger entirely and then blame me for being “unreasonable”.
Sorry but that’s not gonna happen. I can see it on his face. I call Joyce and Becky storming out after John just keeps on being John, and he’s left alone with Jocelyn to think about why this is happening.
@Russ, that’s what I expect from John more than what I hope for. If that is what happens I will be very interested in what Jocelyne will say to him. The night I’d had enough from my father and just turned and walked (silently ) into the night, with no idea where I was going or what I would do except that I wasn’t going back so I’d figure it out … but I didn’t have to because he, my mom, and my sister soon pulled up next to me walking along a thoroughfare. I’ve always wondered what they said to him. He never pulled the same shiz on me again that he did that night. Do you think that alone with Jocelyne, she might be able to get John to pull his head out of where he has it and adjust himself?
Oh I don’t want that, I expect it. Also I’m sorry you had to go through that, that must’ve been hard for you. As for the comic, it really depends on John and his sister’s relationship, and what kind of person he is. Right now he doesn’t seem like he’s much better than Joyce’s mom, but maybe he has a bit of his father in him too. For now I really can’t say!
Jeez. The amount of people in the comments portraying John as sexist is really gross. He hasn’t said *anything* sexist or even anything close to it. Apparently people think he’s sexist because he’s commenting on how angry Joyce is. There is nothing sexist about that. Like, if their sexes were reversed, and an older sister was commenting on a normally-cheerful younger brother’s uncharacteristic anger, nobody would EVER call the older sister sexist. Because it isn’t.
John totally could turn out to be sexist, but at this time there isn’t anything to even imply that he is. If you are calling him sexist (based solely on his sex), *you* are the one who is sexist.
Don’t just assume a bunch of things about John because he’s a fundie, criticize him for the things he IS doing.
(Please do not read this as me defending John, I’m rooting for Joyce here. I just can’t stand it when even people who are apparently thinking about sexism still somehow manage to be sexist themselves.)
I’m a guy, and I didn’t read this as sexist, but I understand where the point comes from. Joyce grew up in a household that told her that she was going to college to find a man, you can see that in her dialogue in the early strips. Cross reference that upbringing with John’s personality leaning more towards accepting his parents’ teachings, and the idea that he’s surprised by her anger comes from Joyce normally being happy-go-lucky, but the dismissal, where he calls her bitter and cites her punching Ross as over-the-top, and sexism becomes a reasonable reason as to why he’s not taking her seriously. It’s not definite, but there isn’t NO evidence as to why people think this. People’s comments as to why they thought this opened my eyes to a different angle on the issue, so I’m grateful for that.
It’s already been discussed to death why John calling Joyce angry like she should be ashamed of that is sexist as all hell, so I am just going to direct you to google “false equivalence” and ollie outie.
I am just all excitement to see this. And in defense of her BFF, no less? Sweet, sweet candy. And a lovely contrast to the Ruth/Billie conflict, no less.
Come at me
And you’ll see
I’m more than meets the eye
You think that
You’ll break me
You’re gonna find in time
You are standing too close to a flame that’s burning
Hotter than the sun in the middle of July
Sending out your army but you still can’t win
Listen up, silly boy, cause I’m gonna tell you why…
(I burn!)
Can’t hold me now
You got nothing that can stop me
(I burn!)
Swing all you want
Like a fever, I will take you down!
(I normally don’t post lyrics like this in comments, but that’s what got into my head the second Joyce’s eyes turned red. Props to whoever gets the reference. :D)
I seriously doubt Joyce would punch her brother, or anybody for that matter, for any offense that ranks below pointing a gun at her and kidnapping her best friend.
Maaaaaan, this is exactly the scenario Becky tried to avoid. Right now she’s thinking “I should have kept up the Hitler jokes so I could have spared Joyce this.”
And Jocelyne… poor, poor Jocelyne, how often have she not stopped herself from saying this, from letting the situation go too far, from letting her anger or hurt show. Well, Joyce is not hiding anything.
John have NO idea of what is going to hit him. It’s not only HIS bullshit Joyce reacts to – she put the lid on her reaction to Carol’s snide remarks yesterday – because she IS her mother – but an older brother is fair game.
Yeah, both Becky and Jocelyne have a lifetime’s experience deflecting and avoiding abuse on the one hand and suspicion on the other. They’ve got the tactics down and the emotional armor all built up. That’s all built up long-term trauma of course, but they’re still needed skills for this situation.
Joyce has none of it. She’s never needed it. No big secret to hide. No constant emotional abuse to deflect. She’s just seeing it now for the first time and it’s a betrayal she’s got no way to process. Except anger. Pure righteous wrath.
Without the power or autonomy to back it up. I’m having trouble seeing how she walks out of this weekend without being broken. Or, as threatened, pulled out of school.
It’s also Becky’s “internalized screaming” face. She always goes poker-faced like that when she’s freaking the fuck out and doesn’t know what to do.
And yeah, Jocelyne is straight up scared. And it’s not of her sister and I don’t think it’s even of her brother’s intransigence, but because every centimeter that angry argument gets closer to coming out, she knows she’s just a little closer to “saying something she can’t ever take back” and knowing it’s the right thing to do.
Cut to: Ruth being investigated by the RA committee. “Have you in your opinion helped the students in your care find tools for conflict resolution”
Ruth: “well…”
Cut to: Joyce, feeding John to wild dogs (or at least trying to feed him to a very confused poodle).
Okay given some of the comments here I feel like I should repost something I said two strips ago: John doesn’t get the benefit of the doubt because he won’t give it to his own little sister.
Back in 2014 or so, I was teaching a class full of younger teenagers when the subject of 9/11 came up. It suddenly struck me that not a single kid in there was old to have any coherent memories of it. A bunch of teenagers in my classroom had no memory of an event that took place when I was in college.
Most of the humans on this planet can’t remember what they were doing the day they heard that US President Kennedy had been shot. All around me were crying. There were rumors. He wasn’t dead. We were glued to our little TVs. Our hearts were broken, and yet there were people who joked about it. This was more than 50 years ago, and the grief and bitterness are still fresh.
When you are twice your current age, there will be this 9/11 thing. If you try to talk about it, people will humor you. Sure, it must have been awful. Much worse things have happened since.
And before then there was Pearl Harbor. I’m sure there must have been a day when someone realized an entire classroom of teenagers had no memory of December 7th 1941 and felt old.
I was listening to my favorite rock station when they broke in (they probably didn’t actually break in so much as they put the next song on hold for a couple minutes) to announce Reagan being shot. I wandered upstairs to tell my little sister and my grandmother who was visiting us at the time from across the country the news. Despite not having a reputation for practical jokes, and the straight forward manner of my delivery, they both accused me of lying. So I flipped on the TV and we watched the news unfold.
There were no tears. I had voted for Reagan but I didn’t have any huge emotional attachment to him. My little sister was too young to vote at the time and like most adolescent girls was quite apolitical. As in she neither understood nor cared a bit about it. I have no idea how my grandmother voted but I never saw her cry a day in her life. She was from a pretty rugged farming and ranching stock and had outlived both of her daughters and her husband (and went on to outlive her second husband) and bad news was for her just something you dealt with.
I have seen the clips of many people openly weeping at the news of Kennedy’s death. I do not understand it. I think it was a different era, where Camelot was real and Donald Trump was not. Where our political leaders were respected even if you voted for the other party instead of a constant news cycle coverage of criticisms bordering on libel and slander.
Today the minute after the President was shot the Republicans would be on the news claiming that the Vice President should resign so that “the people” could choose their new President (I am well aware that this is not how the succession works, I am referring to the debacle surrounding the filling of the SCOTUS seat recently vacated, which is clearly described by the Constitution the Republican’s all swore to uphold upon taking their offices), even though “the people” choose both the POTUS and the VPOTUS by an overwhelming margin.
The Challenger disaster was my first “remember where you were” occasion.
I’d actually suspect most of the humans on the planet today weren’t alive when Kennedy was shot. And a goodly percentage of them even at the time didn’t learn of it immediately or particularly care. Those in the US and to a somewhat lesser extent Western Europe, sure.
For those who don’t already know, “bitter” is a thoughtstopper in U.S. fundiedom. If you can accuse somebody of being “bitter,” you mean that they are dwelling on nothing, being cranky, fussing about tiny things, etc.
Usually it’s flung at people who won’t keep sweet (= shut up) about the Toedads in their lives.
Until a couple days ago, I had a good feeling about Joyce’s brother, and it was pretty clear a lot of other readers did too. Wow. He’s pretty messed up. I don’t understand his thought process at all. What does he think would be the appropriate response to the current situation?
His thought process is very influenced by both fundie culture and western patriarchy in general. He doesn’t expect girls (Joyce is a woman but he undoubtedly thinks of her as a girl) to be able to express anger. He also expects men to be the logical ones so its a major blow to his ego that he very clearly hasn’t thought this through. (note that none of this is meant as a defense, dudes a tool.)
Throwing a punch properly is not just a matter of clenching up and letting fly. Getting your wrist in good alignment is important, as is leading with your top-knuckles. There are people who think you put your thumb *in* your fist, and those people we call ‘idiots who want broken thumbs’.
I say this because Joyce already has *one* injured hand from punching, and honestly, given the life she seems to lead, she’s gonna run out of hands at this rate.
No. You do not lead with your knuckles. That is how you break your knuckles, and that is both painful and possibly crippling.
You use the hammer punch instead. Google it. It can deliver fight ending blows with a minimum change of self injury. Punching someone in the ribs can hurt them, punching them in the face can break your hands. Breaking their nose with a hammer punch can temporarily blind them, fill their nose with blood and snot, and take the fight right out of them. Which should be your goal.
That said, the last actual fist fight I was in was over 30 years ago. And was with a family member 11 years older than me who decided that he could tell me what to do and that if I didn’t like it that he could beat me for daring to defy him. He learned that day that a young man is still a man. He busted my lip but I busted him up. But anyway I like to keep sharp in case it happens again.
Actually, Briny is also correct in leading with aligned knuckles, if you use the first two knuckles straight with the arm. Its one of the punches you learn in tae kwan do. If not alligned you can break your hand, can also break your hand using the hammer fist if not done correctly. Its all in the technique.
She should seriously be able to get her records from the school, including her personal information such as her SSN. She is an adult, and if she paid for her tuition, even if it was using a check from her parents, she has the rights to her records. Now, the shitbag religion school cen be dicks about things, because that’s what shitbag religious schools are best at, but she should have other options. Old employers, perhaps. The state, as I have lost my SSN card (well, my dad lost it for me is more like it) and have had to have a replacement issued.
It’s not like her SSN is gone forever just because she can’t remember it. I’m not even sure why she can’t remember it. Did she not need to fill it in on all of her college applications? All of her job applications? That sort of thing usually sticks with a person.
Sigh.
She’s never had a job. Ross decided where she was going to school and probably filled out all the paperwork. Most places, even if they use your SSN, won’t put it on paperwork they deliver to you for security reasons.
If she really has no ID, it’s going to be hard to bootstrap the process. That’s why getting her existing paperwork from the house is attractive, if potentially difficult. Otherwise the starting point is getting a birth certificate, which in Indiana requires some form of ID.
With time, money and lawyers, it’s possible to do this. For an 18 year old kid with no resources, it’s really hard. Some of the local LGBTQ support groups might be able to help better than anyone else. Put her in touch with pro-bono legal assistance, if nothing else.
The privately funded Christian college, that called her father when she was outed as a lesbian, is not going to bend over backwards to help a lesbian dropout who got her good, Christian father arrested.
And a man as controlling as Ross would definitely not have allowed her to take care of anything financial herself.
Either someone managed to take a picture of this exact moment and that’s what we’re seeing rather than the moment (incoming ‘pull out scene’ in next strip)…
Or Joyce is actually a Terminator who’s memory was wiped and began to believe herself a real human that had grown up in a Christian household.
I’d like someone to take Joyce aside (at a later date of course) and explain that this is why bottling up your emotions is not healthy.
Joyce has shown in the past that she has some considerable anger issues (some justified some not) within her and not expressing them just allows it to build up and then explode when she gets that trigger
On the other hand it does make for a more interesting comic so its all good
This comic is a perfect illustration of when someone who is slowing coming out of heavily indoctrinated thought encounters someone so knee-deep in it they can’t fathom the Forest from the Planet.
I love this. Get angry, show your anger. Grow as a character, Joyce. As devastating as it is for her world to come crashing down on her around her “home life” – I love that she’s voicing it against the men (and women) who are close minded and set in their ways.
Heya, so I hope no one minds but I took a whack at dubbing this and yesterday’s comic because I needed the practice. It’s kinda weird sounding but here it is.
“Because I Am!” Joyce explained, as spontaneous multicolored explosions blossomed behind her, a bald eagle draped her in the American flag, Freddy Mercury came back from the dead to sing “We Are The Champions”, and Jocelyn and Becky flank her in the classic Leg Cling trope…
Given that he managed to not realize he’s being, at best, a massive insensitive jackass by now, No, i don’t think he DOES know how badly he’s fucked up.
Why do certain members of the Brown family have a hard time processing the idea that having a gun pointed at your face might cause a little emotional trauma?
today in #9chickweedlane i learned we have to be shown children learning and relearning what sex is, for Reasons, even though they already clearly know and have prepared nuanced questions about it!
also that Gran must hate, if she's still alive, how Old Juliette is the same but with gray hair
one of my favorite things is when a commenter explodes WHEN DO THESE CHARACTERS GET THERAPY but directed towards a character who canonically has a regular therapist
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btw if you're one of those rando bluesky weirdos who doesn't know me but sees me in the wild being sarcastic and don't know i'm being sarcastic because you haven't taken like 30 seconds to, like, maybe look at my user profile or something, keep walking, you're not going to score internet points here
Here's an entertaining cite at the bottom of the first page
Josh Gerstein@joshgerstein.bsky.social ⋅ 2d
JUST IN: Milwaukee Judge Hannah Dugan moves to dismiss federal criminal case against her for allegedly helping immigrant hide from ICE. Her lawyers say she's protected by official acts & judicial immunity and 10th Amendment. Doc: storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.us...
Where did Hollywood go so wrong? I thought movies were supposed to be an escape from reality, a chance to put your worries aside and not have to think about any underlying ideas or concepts. Well, not anymore.
theonion.com/you-can...
It's not a new argument, of course, but Chesterton dismissed it effectively in 1908.
"You will hear everlastingly... this argument that the rich man cannot be bribed. The fact is, of course, that the rich man is bribed; he has been bribed already. That is why he is a rich man."
Aaron Rupar@atrupar.com ⋅ 2d
Hawley dismisses Trump lining his pockets with his memecoin: "Listen, I think nobody believes that Donald Trump can be bought. I mean, what does Donald Trump need more money for?"
wilbur, savvy enough to know he's in a comic strip but still not a great actor, awkwardly lifts a muffin up into frame so that we, the audience, understand that he has a muffin right now, which is very important narratively, but he's not really selling it well as an organic, human action
preternia @preternia.com ⋅ 1d
Josh Gerstein @joshgerstein.bsky.social ⋅ 2d
Aaron Rupar @atrupar.com ⋅ 2d
Pavel
@spavel.bsky.social ⋅ 11d
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Oh, that’s why…
i didn’t even notice.
Best answer to that kind of comment, really. “You look angry.” “That’s because I’m fucking angry, you twat.”
That my secret, I am always angry.
Okay, Dr. Banner.
As a person with anger issues, that line in the move caught me right in the damn feels.
Angry Joyce is angry.
But personally, I would much rather have Sexy Joyce. Or Cute Joyce. Either would make me happy. ;P
I hope the irony of saying “I’d rather she was cute/sexy instead of angry” really sinks in for you since, essentially, that’s what she’s been told her entire life. “It’d be better if instead of angry you were cute and nice and pleasing.”
People can’t handle anything even remotely negative from other people, or even from themselves. If someone is upset they want to sweep it under the rug, regardless of the reason for it, regardless of whether or not it’s justified or not. I’m convinced that at least half the time, even people who know you and are close to you, only try to ‘help’ you when you’re upset about something, only because they’re thinking, ‘Ugh, this is SO inconvenient for ME to have to listen to, maybe if I help them they’ll shut up and stop bothering me with it’. In the case of females of the species it’s even worse: Girls are always supposed to be sweet and polite and nice and pleasant, regardless of how totally fucked things might be for them. Note I’m not saying ‘christian girls’, I mean all girls, everywhere, all over the world, throughout all of Human history. But it’s also Humans in general. You’re not allowed to be upset about anything, not outwardly, you’re expected to bottle it all up (“suck it up”) and not ‘inconvenience’ anyone with whatever it is. To be fair: Sure, I’m painting with the broadest of brushes here, there are people who are attention whores, there are people who are naturally melodramatic, there are people who are Canaries in a Coal Mine, for whom any deviation of their emotional needle beyond the absolute flatline gets amplified into what seems like the End Of The World, but I’m not really talking about just them either. And, of course, there are people who genuinely care about why someone is upset or angry about something and genuinely want to help. But it seems like there isn’t enough people really caring about other people in the world. Otherwise why would we have the crap that’s going on right now?
Joyce has an entire spectrum of perfectly valid reasons to be angry, and her brother needs to get his head out the sand and listen.
That is not what I was saying, not at all. Or at least, it’s not what I was trying to say. What I meant was, I like it when Joyce is happy just because she is happy. (Not happy because she’s being a stepford smiler). ^^
That is honestly appalling. I hope you’re joking.
I like Angry Joyce. I like Happy Joyce, Funny Joyce, Sad Joyce, Confused Joyce, Hurt Joyce, Disgusted Joyce, Scared Joyce and all the other emotions too. I like the face that Joyce has dynamic emotions. I honestly don’t think I’d feel comfortable with a “Sexy Joyce” right now because she’s not in that mindset. Right now, she’s dealing with trauma after nearly being sexually assaulted at a party and she has very mixed up feelings because she has come to realize that many things may not be what she has been told. She has every right to be angry and that feeling should be validated and not shut down by people like you. I hope that you don’t tell people in your life this if they are trying to feel any emotion toward you.
TL;DR: Every version of Joyce is great because her feelings are valid.
I deal with my anger issues by exaggerating it to comical proportions so I can laugh at myself and not legitimately lash out at people. Not everyone gets I’m mostly joking, though, which is how your friends end up getting questioned about how they can possibly stand to be your friend…
But hey! I’ve never given into the urge to punch someone in the face, so success?
My brother is somewhat fond of that line. Dunno why I’ve never used this response.
I’m rather fond of “No shit, Sherlock” myself.
I just thought your terminator mode was acting up.
Dem red eyes!
So sexy
Frighteningly sexy. But mostly frightening.
Count me for scared and horny
I’m scare-roused!
And that’s the perfect icon for it.
Joyce is being possessed by the devil o_o
I knew there was a logical explanation.
Her other dimension power star leaking in, soon she gona hook up with walks and fight her favorite cartoon character
She is growing little horns in front of her ears.
WHY AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO SEES THIS?
She activated her sharingan
Uh. Happy birthday?
*toots a paper horn*
*Insert confetti and balloons here*
Throws all the streamers.
::accidentally throws a snake:: whoops!
Happy birthday though. May your babies eventually sleep through the night, and then another night, lots of giggling all day and sleepy nights in a row.
37?!
(Obligatory Clerks reference)
It’s comic time. Mr. Willis has birthdays but doesn’t get older. Or maybe it’s vice versa.
He has a really messed-up looking portrait of himself in his attic, though.
This reference.
“Portrait of David Willis” does not have the same ring, unfortunately.
Nitpick…Picture, not Portrait.
Right, it’s only a portrait if it has a big fancy frame.
No, seriously, it’s ‘Picture’.
I’m in Oscar Wilde class, and my teacher has big round eyes and cat ears. Now that’s a picture.
That portrait was made by Joel Watson instead of Basil Hallward, right?
“In a row?”
Try not to have a birthday on the way through the parking lot!
Shut up!
IN A ROW!
May your year be joyful and the rallying cries of “damn you willis” ring sweetly in your ears.
It’s legal to sing it now.
It was ALWAYS legal to sing it.
Now it’s legal to sing it as part of a show, restaurant performance, or other commercial endeavor.
This does not mean that any singers will not be promptly killed with fire on MY birthday.
David Willis, damn you,
David Willis, damn you,
Damn you David, damn you Willis,
David Willis, damn you!
I think I heard a rendition by Jeph Jacques once.
He’s the same age as my son! Well actually same age minus 3 weeks 4 days.
DAMN YOU WI- er, I mean Happy Birthday!
TICKER TAPE PARADE!!!
Happy Birthday, Willis!! One interesting game you can play now is How Old Will the Twins Be Before They Realize That Daddy (or Mommy) Has a Birthday Too? (In this game, your spouse can win or lose right along with you!)
*plays Loggins & Messina’s “Angry Eyes” on the Jukebox*
*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ghR5emVBps*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9iTjVfh558 <- Here ya go.
Never posted a link here before but if it works this seems fitting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBFqGHgCFiY
Perfect!
Wonder what the characters think of the Muzak changing songs every 20 seconds…
We all knew she would snap
So now come the billion dicks part?
I’m seeing only one.
I guess tearing out souls counts as sucking?
Depends. Is she devouring the souls, or just turning them into her enslaved wraith minions?
Souls seem like an unJoycelike diet, unless they can be fashioned into soft-serve, but the creation of undead is usually an evil act. She’d probably just discard them, throw them through reality and into oblivion, or tear them to shreds.
Great, now I miss Raziel and Soul Reaver
Probably not the reference you were going for though.
Well played Vangel!!
Joss: “oh man, I’m full great meal CHECK PLEASE”
Becky: “well, guess Joyce isn’t ordering from the children’s menu ’cause we’ll get KICKED OUT FIRST”
“Actually, we expect people ordering from the children’s menu to throw tantrums, and we do not do ever other diner in the room the courtesy of kicking that party out.”
Rightfully so, I’d say.
yaaaa~y! she has new features!
I think I prefer Joyce without the demonic eyes.
Suit yourself.
They aren’t demonic – she’s simply channeling Yang Xiao Long.
She has absorbed her brother’s attacks – and become stronger.
YES she has leveled up
Red Eyes White Joyce
So, what? She’s a Yu-gi-oh card?
Yup :T
Welp she was on a motorcycle. I guess it was only a matter of time before a children’s card game came into the mix >.>
Card games on children’s menus!
I have never wanted a like button more. All of you, +5.
…
…well, at least it’s not a red panel?
She’s having a red panel on the inside.
of her eyes
she is seeing the entire world as a red pannel
And you have every right to be, Joyce.
Really? I’d say Becky has a whole lot more reason to go all ape shit than Joyce ever had.
But that’s just me.
So you think because one person has MORE reason to be angry that invalidates someone else’s reasons for anger?
Only one person may be angry at a time.
There’s only so much to go around, and almost all of it got used up.
Only so much anger to go around?
Oh, you sweet summer child.
I think Pat was being sarcastic.
Honestly, you can just staple that to most of what I say.
Yeah, I’m totally the person who said Joyce can’t be angry because Becky is. That was me.
I agree, I am pretty tired of Joyce and her trauma zone. She has a perfect opportunity to help her friend her and, instead, she is making a scene in a restaurant.
…What? What are you even talking about? What “perfect opportunity”? If you’re talking about Jocelyne, I’m pretty sure Joyce can get ahold of her at any time. And John is being a huge asshole and trying to invalidate her completely valid anger.
Leslie reached out to her to offer help, but was tentative enough and enough of an authority figure Joyce didn’t trust her. This was not a time-limited offer, as Joyce is still in her class and will see her when she gets back to school. The question is, will Joyce realize that Leslie is actually trustworthy and a good ally in this?
What am I talking about? What are you talking about? Jocelyn doesn’t have any problems a micing van won’t solve right now. Her problems are in the future, poor thing.
Becky, you know, the homeless, abused, practically orphaned teenager with no means or financial support. She just announced a pressing need and Joyce (and I assume you, as well) would rather start a fight, cause a scene thag will result in having a cathartic meltdown and helping no one in the middle of a restaurant.
But there’s no opportunity to help Becky here. At least none that comes from listening to John tell her she overreacted and Becky’s problems aren’t a big deal and she’s being too angry.
Now if John would shut up and let them talk to Jocelyne who’s offered to help and likely has useful advice, there’s an opportunity there. But it’s not Joyce who’s screwing that up.
Where’s the help supposed to come from and what form is it taking?
That is a very good thing you just pointed out. John can do a LOT of good by just shutting up.
Let “Josh” talk to Becky, since they obviously found a report between them, listen to Joyce, let her tell him her story – in her own tempo. Maybe say a few non-commiting things just to keep the conversation going.
That would give Becky a chance to connect to someone that could genuinely help her, Joyce a chance to reconnect to family without feeling threatened, himself the chance to get a gauge of Joyce’s situation.
He would not even need to agree on anything, all he would need to do would be to listen and postpone his own judgement half an hour. The only drawback would be that he would put himself at risk of investing emotionally in Becky’s situation, or even learn that Joyce might have a point.
Listen to people… help them talk… invest emotionally… isn’t that EXACTLY what priests are supposed to do?
That however would not work because it includes Jocelyn coming out to all of the persons present – including John, and she is not ready for that!
Best you can hope for is Jocelyn giving good advice – he already offered that – while still staying in the closet.
Ugh, it’s weird, i may have misinterpreted “let her tell him her story” as Jocelyn telling her story.
It’s of course different if you suggested that Joyce tells her story.
Yeah, sorry, I didn’t phrase that very well.
I meant John giving Joyce the opportunity to tell her story.
um, “micing van”?
Sorry, just curious what you meant.
(Images of a van full of mice parked on a streetcorner)
I’m pretty sure causing a scene and be angry IS the most helpful thing here.
Like, yeah, it’s not gonna fix any immediate issue with Becky not having her social security number. But it’s very clearly putting the line on where Joyce’s alligeance lies. And that is therefore something Becky won’t have to question, and it might even show Jocelyn that she might trust her sister to understand her when she decides to come out and not constantly fear for a toxic comment like their mother’s “is it worth getting you father in jail”-shit. Had she been polite and not caused a scene, it would sure be more pleasant for John, but it would show for Becky and Jocelyn that Joyce might let them be colleteral damage in drama in the future.
I REALLY want a like button right now. This sums it up perfectly in far, far fewer words than I would have used.
Standing up to John and calling him on his bullshit right now is what should be done. One way or another. He needs to be told what an asshole he’s being, and shown that Joyce will side with Becky and won’t take any patronizing, bigoted, gas lighting bull over it.
Then there’s that added bonus of Jocelyne seeing that Joyce is someone she can depend on when she needs her.
I’m so glad that Joyce ignored her life-long conditioning to be a “good girl” who doesn’t get angry and is instead honest and passionate in her emotions. I mean, she needs to better control her anger – she tends to be violent when mad, and that isn’t cool. But she isn’t LYING to herself about what she feels. You know why so many women cry when they’re mad? Because we’re covertly trained by society to get mad at ourselves whenever we’re mad at anything and see our anger at someone else as a personal failing and fall into a little spiral of fucked upness that brings out the water works. Joyce isn’t angry-crying. She’s angry-angry and is making that known and that doesn’t weaken her argument.
Yes. This. But this happens to me when I get really angry, too.
I was trained/conditioned to keep a very tight reign on my anger, not to let it show in public. I don’t think it is an accident that I have some anger management issues. “Boys don’t cry”, my ass…
I’m perpetually surprised at how closely my experiences mirror things that I learn are common experiences for women.
Same here. So often there’s something I think is unique to me, and maybe is a personal failing, yet it seems to be a pretty common experience for many women, and simply many people.
I’m not a woman.
My experiences are with a few specific people (all women, actually, although I don’t think that’s really related).
Yet every time I hear women talk (slash read their writing) about this stuff, my immediate reaction is “Yes! Me too! I have exactly that experience. …uh, almost.”
Maybe it’s things that happen to people in general as opposed to just women. Maybe women are just more likely to talk about it?
HI YES THIS.
There are times when you really really need someone to make a scene for you, as a way of acknowledging that the way you are being treated is not okay. It matters, both on a personal level an on the social movement level.
Joyce is doing proper allying right now – Joyce is taking the risk that Becky, put frankly, can’t and furthermore knows she can’t.
If Becky goes apeshit right now, how do you think John and Joyce’s parents will react? How do you think the restaurant will react? How likely do you think it is that she’ll be able to get out of there without physical abuse or being arrested if the owners get “worried” by the scary lesbian with an undercut? She is already only barely tolerated in their presence, for Joyce’s sake. Bad things will happen to Becky if she flips out about her treatment. From experience, people just fucking loooove to tell marginalized people to “just stand up” for ourselves (I have no doubt that John would be the sort to ask Becky why she didn’t just firmly tell her father that no she wouldn’t be coming with him while he had a rifle pointed at her face), but when we do, we’re the bad ones and they demonize and criminalize us for it (a good example: look at how the media is treating Black Lives Matter right now, or how pro-choice protesters are treated in the media in Atlantic Canada).
Allies have the ability to take that risk, because their place of privilege means they are not as likely to face consequences for standing up, and the consequences they do face are not likely to be as severe. An ally standing up for a marginalized person is not viewed as a dangerous deviant flouting the natural order of things – more often they’re viewed as someone who has a lot of empathy, even if they’re a little naive or gullible (I’m talking about the view by most casual bigots – i.e., most of mainstream society – not the view by hate group members here). Looking to history: In Canada, suffragettes got committed to asylums and tortured. Their male allies generally weren’t and were safe to put pressure on their colleagues to get the changes made.
Of course, the flipside of ally privilege is that said male allies are now treated as Big Damn Heros and presented as the leaders of the movement who “gave” women the right to vote (rather than recognizing that women always had the right to vote and men were oppressing them – it was not the mens’ place to give or take it away in the first place!). But that’s a different problem and it doesn’t take away from how necessary allies are to any movement, nor does it take away from the genuine good Joyce is doing. IMO, Joyce is doing allying right.
Thanks for writing this, I’ve never considered how privilege can reshape the optics of protest.
In regards to your Big Damn Heroes point I think that there is some justification for this view in that the allies don’t seek power for themselves but instead to dissipate their power to others. It’s not fair that they had such power, but it is noble that they would use the power so charitably.
I don’t mind recognizing allies, my issue is when allies are seen as the starters, leaders and drivers of a movement that they neither started, led, nor drove. That’s more my issue with the Big Damn Heros point.
Pierre Trudeau, while his government did great things for LGBT people in Canada, did not start the gay rights movement – that had its origins in Canada almost a century earlier, with bisexual, gay and lesbian people in the Victorian era. But we don’t remember the people who actually started the movement, we remember Trudeau as some big damn hero who did it all in a vacuum.
Justin Trudeau is being hailed as some feminist hero for his gender-equal cabinet – and don’t get me wrong, it’s a great step forward for women in Canada. But his decision to impose gender equality on cabinet doesn’t have its roots with him. He’s a great ally to women, but he is not the one who started feminism in Canada – that has its origins even before Canada was a country.
I could go on, but my issue isn’t with recognizing the contributions of allies, it’s with erasing the contribution of marginalized people in favor of recognizing the contribution of allies and lionizing said allies.
Yay, Harriet Tubman. She had help but she was the one taking the big risks. [She’s my hero.]
All of that assumes the need to make a scene. There isn’t one and there are much more productive things an ally can do for Becky, right now. The alternatives are not, suffer oppression in silence or top of your lungs diatribe. There is a lot of middle ground there.
Joyce has been watching her best friend be the butt of a long string of passive agressive bullshit from her family for two days. Joyce’s mom was -awful- to Becky. John is being awful to Becky. Joyce’s anger is more than reasonably justified, and maybe she isn’t expressing it in the most constructive way possible, but she has zero, ZERO experience with even -feeling- this kind of rage, so you might consider excusing her if she isn’t handling it in the best possible way.
Honestly, I find -your- response to her anger to be the same kind of condescending bullshit that her brother is throwing at her right now.
Yeah, this.
For me, personally: There have been very few times that someone has felt the need to explode at another person on my behalf. Every time it’s happened, I’ve been grateful for the explicit and unambiguous show of support.
For me, knowing I was supported explicitly when others are being condescending jerkasses and everything around you is going to hell? It helps. A lot.
Yeah, cause actually trying to help someone, rather than rant is SO condescending and bigoted.
Hun… you definitely aren’t trying to help the fictional character. You are ranting, though.
Wow, all of these excuses for not helping Becky. Joyce and John have their own thing going on and Jocelyne is the only one trying to do anything. John is actually the outlier here and has even started ces oring himself.
In one conversation Jocelyne has focused more on Becky and overcoming her problems than Joyce has since Becky arrived at her school. Even when Becky comes right out and says what she needs Joyce just wants to vent. That bothers me.
This attitude isn’t helping Becky and isn’t helping Joyce. At all.
Don’t forget that it allows Joyce to establish her own independence. Calm words would show maturity, self control, and give her better negotiation ground. But right now she’s bucking the social social expectation that she play nice and not feel angry so showing the anger does a better job of communicating the firmness of her stance.
No, a monologue os rarely the solution to anything.
Stop acting like John, and shaming someone for having a normal emotional reaction to the trauma they’ve experienced. Joyce was almost raped, almost shot and killed, has had her worldview turned upside down, found out her mom is a horrible person, and now her brother is attacking her best friend and showing a lack of love for her. She has the goddamned right to be angry.
Joyce does not have to be prim and proper all the time in order to have worth. Yes, there might be a better way to deal with this if Joyce were a robot without actual emotions that normal people feel getting in the way. But Joyce is a human being.
You can have comment after comment explaining why John is being a complete asshole. And then we still have people who come in and do the exact same things.
If you think Joyce means something bad about Joyce, then the way you think is exactly like the villains in this comic. Why do you read it if that is the case?
*If you think what Joyce did means something bad about Joyce, then the way you think is exactly like the villains in this comic. Why do you read it if that is the case?
I hate the lack of an edit function. You can’t see the entire post at once in the text box, so I miss things.
Helping your friend and indulging yourself are not the same thing. You don’t have to get up and start yelling to tell someone off.
I do agree that it is past time Joyce talked to someone about being drugged and assaulted though. Using Becky as a conduit, rather than helping her is definitely not the solution.
If you think the solution to difficulty dealing with someone is yelling at them in public, I can can refer you to a good counsellor.
You are being quite the condescending jerk right now.
There are times when blowing up is necessary. When you find yourself dealing with emotional abuse – like Joyce is – is one of them. Because if you don’t blow up in a way that makes it perfectly clear that you are having none of it, the emotional abuser will keep on with their abusive behavior. Do you really think for even a second that John would have allowed the conversation to stay focused on helping Becky? Jocelyn already tried to focus it there, twice, and John derailed it back to his passive-aggressive back-biting twice. If Jocelyn and Joyce had refocused it on Becky again, John would’ve kept derailing, or he would’ve attacked her directly again. But he had absolutely no intention of interacting or participating in the conversation in good faith.
You can’t have a successful two-way interaction if the other party has no desire to interact in good faith. This dinner was destined to fail, because John was determined that it was going to end with Joyce back in her place as a good, demure, thoughtless Christian doll-girl, and Joyce is not in a mental place to be able to go back to that – nor do I think she wants to. John did not want to help Becky, he did not want to help Joyce, he wanted to impose his will. When Joyce made it clear she was not going to allow him to do that, he purposefully antagonized her so that he could leave and appear to take the high road.
Frankly, Joyce probably handled it the best she could have for her own mental health – the longer you allow an emotional abuser to work on you, the more they can mess with your head and hurt you. She shut down John’s abuse, and good on her for it.
Drinking orange juice is not the same thing as saving the world from an alien invasion.
Not being the same thing, however, does not mean that the former will in any way prevent you from doing the latter.
Also, nobody should have any expectation that you’ll do the latter anyway, although I guess it’d be cool if you did.
This isn’t Becky’s family though. It’s Joyce’s and that makes a huge difference. It definitely hurts Becky to be rejected by Joyce’s family but Becky doesn’t have to reconcile that, she can walk away. Joyce can’t walk away from these bigots so easily because they’re her Brother, they’re her Mother. She has to deal with the fact that the people who taught her how to treat others, the people she loves and looked up to, are very wrong to the point of being bad people in how they treat others.
Becky is receiving more of the same homophobia she has already decided to face with a care free “GUESS WHAT I’M A LESBIAN” attitude. Joyce is having to face something she’s never seen before from people she never expected it from and it’s forcing her to take sides in her family.
Becky can walk away? To where, exactly. She is homeless, abused, pratically orphaned, penniless and in dire need of support. But hey, Joyce is having a rough time with her family. Let’s just make things even more awkward, instead of driving to Becky’s place and seeing if there is an open window.
Well, that might be more profitable than lunch with John, but Joyce shutting up and letting John lecture her isn’t getting there either.
It’s also far from a guaranteed solution. It might lead to the cops being called and interactions with prejudice small town cops might not be a good thing. And they may simply not find the stuff they need.
Don’t get me wrong. I think it’s worth a try, though climbing threw the window may not be the best approach. I also doubt it’s one John would go along with. Or at least interrupt lunch for.
Who needs John?
I didn’t see any lecture, just a very unpleasant half sentence.
The looking for a window tonclimb through was meant to be loght hearted, but, if you need actual suggestions.
1. Get the money for a locksmith
2. Apply, online. For copies of Becky’s birth certificate and any other documents that are freely available.
3. Actually try and help Becky in any way that improve her life,rather than make Joyce feel better. She needs a job, tuition, scholarships, clothes, books, a place of her own and some of those chicken fingers from the kid’s menu.
They don’t need John, but they’re at lunch with him, so unless they’re just going to walk out…
I get that you don’t see a lecture. That there isn’t one is largely because he keeps getting interrupted – by Jocelyne attempted deflection and by Joyce’s growing anger.
1) A locksmith isn’t going to let them in without proof Becky lives there.
2) People have gone on at great length about how this isn’t trivial. It’s probably possible, but the basic Catch-22 of “You need ID to get ID” is a serious problem.
3) Yes she does. And Jocelyne had offered a little bit of help with that before John broke in again to minimize the problem. Jocelyne has a clue as to how much trouble Becky’s in. John doesn’t and isn’t helping. Which is pissing Joyce off because she’s being protective of Becky, especially against her family.
But none of that’s going happen right now, while they’re at lunch, so I guess Joyce should just shut up and listen to John tell her she overreacted to Ross and she’s being too emotional now and they should have just thought before … whatever.
Yes, a locksmith will come to your house and let you in.
You do not need ID to get a copy of your birth certificate.
You can get a copy of your Social Security Card with a Student ID and a Birth Certificate.
If you can’t figure out a middle ground between staying silent and yelling at the top of you lungs, in public, may I suggest counselling. Since both of those options involve ignoring the person woth the real problems, my original point stands.
I once locked myself out of a new apartment, Wearing only a pair of pyjama bottoms. A locksmith came within half an hour and let me in. I paid cash.
So they should blow off John and go do something else entirely?
Isn’t that what she’s doing that you don’t like?
How do you describe abuse as a bad thing, and then in the same sentence attempt to downplay abuse by calling it “a rough time with her family”?
Does it only count as abuse if you’re a lesbian?
Joyce is coming to the realization that she is in an abusive situation, and that she is entirely dependent on people who don’t care about and want to use and harm her–which is a lot like being homeless and penniless, incidentally.
How big of an information dump are we looking at? Starting with Ryan and moving on through parents hating the atheist friend, accidentally hurting her best friend, the rifle and kidnapping, the defence of the kidnapper and ending with the threat to pull her from school?
So salty
Finally.
We all knew it was coming.
Yep
party over there
wave your hands in the air
shake your deriere
these three words when you’re gettin’ busy
whoomp there it is
hit me
That was a reply to Carolyn
The time bomb finally triggered.
Hoo boy.
RUN
But you always say that
And I’m always right about it. Frigging expert on when it’s time to run.
Guess what, it’s Run O’Clock.
So the Olympic fleeing finals are you versus Rincewind?
Honestly, between Rincewind and The Doctor, it’s tough call on who would win. Though I’m inclined to let Rincewind have it out of sympathy. The man has no other talents, and he deserves to get credit for at least one thing.
That and languages. I think he’d think the Doctor’s telepathic language thing was cheating. Useful, but cheating.
Yeah, he’d accuse The Doctor of cheating. Then ask him how he does it. Rincewind is more than willing to cheat if it means he’ll live.
Gandalf also. Just a little more pithy.
“Run, you fools!”
HOBBLE
Whoop, there it is.
So has Joyce officially transformed into Carrie now?
“They’re all gonna laugh at you…seriously, your webcomic is generally very funny.”
“Not this specific strip, it’s mainly just dramatic. But that’s good too.
Only if John dies from the sheer brute force of anger.
Don’t make joyce angry, you wouldn’t like it when she’s angry
Joyce SMASH!
“That’s my secret, John… I’m always angry.”
I happen to like her a lot when she’s angry.
(Except when she was angry at Becky for being all ‘woohoo, science!’ That was really more depressing than anything.)
Someone needs some Clear eyes.
And the sooooooooothing voice of Ben Stein.
Oh snap, heat vision!
I bet nobody in Joyce’s family has ever seen her angry before. I still think John is being an asshole, but this is probably a pretty weird experience for him which is why he’s commenting on it.
I’m sure it is. Fundie men are not typically used to seeing women display negative emotions in their presence.
Joyce is about to give him the “Come to Jesus Meeting” he deserves.
Time for John to get a smackdown
i hope.
Added to which, Joyce is usually the most cheerful person in the world. This might be the first time that John has ever seen her get really angry.
I’m pretty certain John is seeing his life flash before his eyes. Hopefully once Joyce explains (most likely in rant format) why she is angry, he’ll take her side against the parents on the college issue.
John’s the one their mother considers a “success.” I wouldn’t count on him to take Joyce’s side on wanting to remain in a secular college where she can be exposed to things like facts.
We all wanted him to be on Joyce’s side a few days ago, but it looks like tHat’s not going to happen.
He’s probably just waiting for her to finish, so he can “calm her down” and thoroughly mansplain her problems away. “All Becky has to do is just get her Social Security number! How hard is that?”
“Well, she has to get her social security number and keep those girl-loving feelings deep, deep inside. After all, it’s not a sin to *be* gay, it’s a sin to *act* on those feelings. So you just never ever do anything based on those feelings, get your social security number, marry some man that you’ll learn to love eventually, and that’s it. Happily ever after. It’s simple really.”
This whole arc just reminds me of the time my (straight, christian) best friend in high school told me & my (trans*, queer, and now best) friend that if she were a lesbian she would never act on it and how totally gross I found that statement but could never figure out how to articulate it at the time.
I had several friends in school express similar views. I didn’t have the ability then to express what was so awful about that view. I eventually managed to convince my dad, though, how gross and dehumanizing that thought was. I just couldn’t really do it as a teen. It took a while to find the words for my feelings.
Like, you have somewhat of a point, but you could leave the slurs out of it.
“Mansplain”? I am hearing more people call that out as a slur as a tactic to devalue someone’s initial point. It leaves me somewhat bemused.
Considering her father wished he’d been able to punch toedad’s lights out and John criticized her for doing so, i doubt it.
Hell, he might actually come to Jesus by the time she’s done. Last time she was this mad, she punched a man in the head until even *after* she sprained her wrist; the only thing that stopped her was Becky. Not sure even Becky can stop it this time.
Hells yeah, Joyce! Call out his tone policing!
“See, that tone of red is EXACTLY what I was trying to police.”
Congrats John. You have awoken the righteous fury of Joyce. Wish i could say it was nice knowing you.
“And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon you.”
“But I’m tryin’, John. I’m tryin’ real hard to be the shepherd.”
Well, her Brother’s already poisoned, but her Sisters, both biological and adopted, can still be protected.
I can only ever hear this song starting after seeing that quote now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4qBHNLBvg0
It seems oddly fitting for Joyce’s emotional state right now though.
Also mind-blowing stop motion is king.
RED EYES JOYCE ABORT ABORT
no for reals this is magnificent
Right?! I really love her expression in the last panel. Not just the red eyes; all of it.
JOYCE THE ANGRY RED EYED RACCOOOON
It really is fantastic. After all she’s been through the past several weeks and after the misogynistic, dismissive bullshit John just pulled (in so short a time too!) this is great! Go Joyce go!
i think my favorite part is that she’s not pretty about it tbh
Oh wait, Joyce’s eyes are fucking red.
I cannor read that last panel without Joyce’s voice dropping an octave.
I’m hearing the Possessed Regan Mercedes McCambridge voice from The Exorcist.
Split pea soup, any second now.
I’m hearing Rose from Tales of Zestiria when she goes from “cheerful banter with Sorey” to “Assassination time”
I’m hearing Laura Limpin from KND.
edit: f**k this mouse.
When she ends up hulking out.
I still see Yang Xiao Long.
YESSSSSS. This is fantastic <3 I fucking love righteous-holy-fury paladin Joyce.
Also, happy birthday Willis!
She ’bout to Smite Evil.
Though Smite Asshole might be a better power in this case.
Depending on the GM, they may be one and the same.
I don’t think he’s crossed into evil just yet, just insensitive jerk who stepped on a few land mines he didn’t expect to blow.
While I agree, there are those who take a very black-and-white approach, and for some he’d fall into black just for some thoughtless insensitivity.
But it’s not just thoughtless insensitivity. His trying to control her emotions comes from the poisonous misogyny that many fundamentalist families preach and try to instill in their children from birth.
Women shouldn’t feel any negative emotion. And they damn sure better not show it. Their purpose on this Earth is to make babies and keep the men in their family happy. That means having a smile plastered on your face at all times, pushing negative feelings as far down as you can and not letting anyone know you had them. Keep sweet at all times.
This is not carelessness or insensitivity. This is a consistent lesson taught in fundamentalist families that is misogynistic in the extreme and exceedingly toxic to all involved.
John needs a damn hard lesson in how a person is allowed to feel the way he/she feels about a situation or statement. Even if that person is female.
Even if you’re right – and you probably are, but I can hope – I sincerely doubt he’s doing it consciously. He was raised in the same environment as Joyce, and it took her a while to overcome her programming.
One doesn’t have to be consciously abusive to be abusive.
My folks don’t think they’re abusive. My father has, among other things, put his fist through the wall next to my head, threatened to kill me, and who routinely used to threaten me with abandonment for any twitch of anything even remotely resembling rebellion. My mother is so much like Carol it’s eerie in terms of personality. Both of them think they’re strong people who overcame their own abusive backgrounds to be ‘good’ parents.
You can be a seriously abusive jackass, and genuinely not think you’re abusive.
Where Joyce differs from John is that she did a Hank and at least tried to reign in her judgmental side while she learned more about stuff she had the wisdom to recognize she was ignorant in. John is steadfastly refusing to acknowledge that he might not have all the information here.
What, Joyce is a paladin?
Well, she struggles to reconcile the moral code she was taught and the real world, finding that her friends and comrades can be good people even without faith and ultimately embracing her own moral code when she finds the old one injust. Sounds like a Paladin to me.
And her alignment is most definitely Lawful Good.
“Yes, it’s against the rules [to let Becky stay here], but it’s the right thing to do!”
Sounds like Neutral Good or Chaotic Good to me.
That’s alignment creep. She started out Lawful Good. I don’t think that’s enough creep to put her into Neutral Good territory.
I do expect that’s where she will end up, however.
That sounds nothing like any paladin ever at the end. People who play paladins tend to be jackasses.
You’ve been playing with the wrong paladins!
Most of my paladins tend to be people either playing for the stats, or for to be actually decent people. The lawful-stupids tend to play for the self-righteous authority, especially the part where they can say “if you don’t do things my way, you’re down a key party member”.
On the other side of the same coin, dungeon masters who let the latter type of paladin exist are generally bad. There’s plenty of ways to get around the paladin’s code, from loose interpretation to alternate rules to similar concept classes to straight houserules.
Basically, if paladin=jackass, you’re doing it wrong
Exemple of jerk paladin:I capture the enemy flag, I was halfway to my base, I pass one of my paly allies, casts somekind of spell on me which makes me drop the flag, he picks up the flag.
True story
Azerothian paladins do have a marked tendency to be pricks, but WoW isn’t exactly much of an RPG.
I’d play Paladins more often if DMs didn’t put down the choice of “to be Lawful or Good.” Where the only answer is to take out your character sheet, a lighter, and watch it burn.
Paladins are probably the most on a good DM-Player relationship.
I’d say Good is supreme for a Paladin, unless it’s a direct Law they personally have to follow. In that case, their assumption is that a Law made by the Good god they follow is Good, even if they don’t understand it. Any other law could be an unjust law. Sure, they follow the law if they can, but if the only way to follow the law is to not be Good by how their god defines Good, then they do what their god says.
But I don’t play the game. I just watch others. I just think that the whole point of Lawful Good is that you have a law that you know is Good, and you follow that law. They aren’t supposed to be at odds with one another–that’s why they are on different axes.
I read a thing in a Dragon magazine a while back where someone pointed out that paladins require high Charisma, and a self-righteous jackass isn’t exactly charismatic, or likely to encourage people to follow him or her into battle.
First paladin I ever played (in 2nd Ed) was friendly and cheerful, would happily enjoy drinks with his party members (though never get truly drunk), and would occasionally take out a harp and sing for people. He calmly tried to lead by example, and, while he would protest if his allies did something he didn’t approve of, he also recognized that they had a different outlook.
He saw his vows as a standard to hold himself to, which would hopefully inspire others to do likewise. And if ever people needed him, he would be there.
Self-righteous jack assess can be very charismatic, and get other people to believe in their jackassery (see many politicians) Paladins need both above average Charisma AND Wisdom. That combination is what makes the difference.
The thing most people forget about Paladins in D&D is they operate in a FANTASY world where GOOD and LAW are (Extraplanar) forces just as potent as (if not more than) GRAVITY. And Palandins answer to those forces for their power, not mortal ones. Sometimes that force is embodied by an actual god. Many players and GMs don’t accept this and choose to house rule moral relativism without adjusting the Paladin’s restrictions to match.
Another issue is GMs who create challenges in their games that they think are unsolvable for the Paladin (due to a cynical view that nothing can be Good forever), of course those GMs are jerks because they wouldn’t make a lock a rogue could never pick that is CRITICAL to adventure progression, or constantly try to steal the Wizard’s spell components when they know a challenge will require a specific spell with those components.
If Joyce was a Paladin, and DoA was a High Fantasy world, she could sneak Becky into the dorms’ no issue. Keeping in mind Law and Good are given to her by the benvolent LG version of the Christian God (old man Yahweh, plus son Jesus). What she’s finding as a paladin is that the mortal authority figures she has respected in the past are not actually following some of the deeper codes of conduct expect (various types of compassion), and that in not following those they are not being Good. This conflicts with her Divine given directives, which trump any mortal ones. This also extends to breaking the “laws” of the University Dorm. Again those mortal rules are in conflict with the succor she is Divinely required to provide Becky, to the best of her ability.
Again, if DoA was a fantasy world with god(s) that take direct action in the world. Such as providing tanaglable power to mortals in the form of spells and powers to actually heal major injuries and diseases. Like “I touch you and your Ebola is gone” levels of power.
I had a fun time playing a Paladin of Tyr who would follow her personal code.
Paladin depends on two things: 1, having a party that does not want to tank your Paladin, and 2, having a DM who doesn’t insist on putting you into no-win situations all the damn time to force you into an Atonement quest.
(I’m weird: I don’t mind an atonement quest if it’s something I brought on myself, but if my DM forces it on me through a no win situation, I am going to get pissy very quickly. By all means get my character through temptation, that’s character development. Through lose-lose situation? That’s just lazy DMing).
Really, it just depends on the DM. The DM can make anything happen, literally. I like to say they’re “Divine Rank infinity”, because literally, if the DM wants something to happen in-game enough, it happens. You can play Paladin of Freedom (or Tyr, in your case), you can let people just cast Atonement, heck, houserules just automatically change things. If people are giving your paladin a hard time, for having a class titled “Paladin”, they can reskin/rename. Problem players can be talked to or kicked out. Good players can be rewarded.
I’m thinking more barbarian-berserker. Behold the power of RAGE.
I’m fairly certain there are prestige classes to combine the two.
This shit don’t fly without some serious paladin magic!
(Convincing Sal to pull that stunt indicates extreme charisma stats!)
I’m gonna tell you the truth, I see Joyce as a multi-classed Cleric/Fighter here. Or maybe a Cleric/Bard, I think there’s a spell to weaponize anger there.
COME TO ‘ROUND THE CLOCK FAMILY RESTAURANT ANY TIME FOR AN ASS-KICKING.
Seriously, red-eyed-bordering-on-murder-Joyce is… well maybe not best Joyce, but she’s up there.
Rosspunching Joyce is still better, but… might be time to Paint in Solar caste marks again.
Rosspuncher and Red Joyce are one and the same. I remember because her eyes flashed red when she went to FRIGGIN curb stomp the guy.
That was after. I liked the wind-up and delivery more.
Red-eyes is 2nd or 3rd place.
Also! Notes:
-For me and whoever replied, THIS is why I was leaning towards Zerker Joyce.
-For everyone talking about eyebrows, look at John’s in the last panel. It still kinda looks like he doesn’t really give a fuck about Joyce’s feelings, like a hero.
I think “everyone” is pretty much me. Speaking of eyebrows, Becky usually doesn’t have any. (I love her face in Panel 4.5.)
My personal preference is for silent-horrified-BSOD Joyce.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/04-the-bechdel-test/gasp/
I vote for this when Jocelyn comes out / is outed to her. I mean, I know it’s not classy and accepting, but it’s still hilarious.
This one is good too.
My vote for Best Joyce is Blue Laser Eyes Joyce.
Three days ago: Christi the mystery person. Whoa. Maybe John is gay. Maybe he’s married to an exotic Asian temptress. Maybe he’s converted to Buddhism. Good things could happen.
Today: Aw crap.
More like aw yeah!
I mean, we all wanted to give John a fair shot, but he’s been giving off a lot of effing warning signs, more than can be overlooked anymore.
Yeah, I went from hopeful two days ago to wanting to punch John in the face. Perhaps I will get to live vicariously through Joyce. She seems to punch people a lot when she’s angry, although maybe don’t use a glass this time.
Feel the inner Hank in you!
Thanks, I had forgotten! (And the next strip in that sequence is great too.)
Joyce’s mutant powers have finally activated. Somebody get her some ruby quartz glasses before her optic blasts lay waste to her surroundings.
If I’m to believe the folks at Johnny Wander sometimes a simple baseball cap will suffice.
http://www.johnnywander.com/comic/taking-it-off
If I recall he should have been able to control them, but due to an injury in his tragic backstory, he can’t turn it off.
Cyclops’ real superpower is cheating on his wife.
The one that has a collection of death certificates that takes up an entire file drawer at Xavier’s School? That wife?
And the other one who turned out to be an evil clone/demonic sorceress who tried to sacrifice their baby in what may be Marvel’s greatest attempt at “bongoes be crazy” in their entire publication history.
I though he superpower was getting shat on by all those different writers.
And with “all those different writers” you especially mean Damn You Willis!
Shut it down, John. SHUT. IT. DOWN.
Maybe he should reschedule his next mission to Madagascar.
Yeah. Like, leaving ASAP.
…. on the red-eye, even.
Ha!
There’s a pandemic of Joyce’s reitous fury brewing. Madagascar has closed its ports in preparation.
Red Eyes take warning.
Beware the Nice Ones
Breaking the Cutie?
It’s a slow burn but it’s definitely happening!
In Soviet Russia, cutie breaks you.
OOC Is Serious Business
Stop it! I just got off of TV Tropes!
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife
Have you seen the DoA page(s) at TVTropes? They’re huge.
Red eyes at night, EVERYONE take flight!
Actually, they’re having lunch.
Red eyes at noon? Must be a cartoon.
Good is not Nice.
Light is not Good.
YES…..give in to your anger….let the hate flow through you.
Imagine the server who was about to come to their table but then just kept walking.
Hah, yeah, they were all “are you folks ready to– nope“
Just walking to the back, thru the kitchen, “Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope.”
“Our special today is the chicken scramble.”
Like the two troopers in the hall outside the interrogation room.
As someone who’s been a waitress, confrontations like this are where we send the bravest of us (and the meanest and/or biggest) to go handle the situation while the rest of us hide behind the counter. Usually with a phone ready to call the cops.
At the ripe old age of 27, my default instinct now is just to believe every argument between customers will possibly need police intervention, because humans are weird.
Yep. Every argument at a table is a big red neon sign saying “violence incoming!” An argument between people at two different tables,especially where they don’t seem to know each other, you try to contain it at first if it’s just words. But once one of them stands up? Run. Just. Fucking. Run. Way too likely that fists are going to fly at any moment.
In the situation in the comic? I hide for a few minutes and hope they calm down and/or leave. If it gets disruptively loud and/or vulgar tell the floor manager and maybe send in that one waiter that looks more like he should be a bouncer, and can charm anyone (only places I worked that didn’t have one of these guys were the places that were so small that I was the only server on a shift.).
If the big charming waiter doesn’t work? You let the manager handle it, walk away and pretend it never happened.
One of the big stores in Bristol I swear has a “domestic” going on every time I go there.
I think the staff ignore it until it gets too loud.
Staff are usually mostly hoping they’ll just go away. Domestics are tricky. There’s a chance they’ll both turn on you, and frankly, I’m not paid enough to handle that.
DESTROY ALL HUMANS
“Humans… are THE WORST. *gestures to himself* Case in point.”
-Roman Torchwick
Let it out, Joyce. Let it all out.
John? IT BEGINS.
I think we have a breakthrough, and for something that’s been building for a while. I wonder if Joyce realises she’s not merely angry at John. She’s angry that her life has been completely been upended in the last month. She’s angry at Dorothy and Becky and Ryan and Ethan, and most of all at her family, who have completely failed to prepare her for any of this.
But at the same time, she knows that Dorothy, Ethan and Becky haven’t done anything wrong, and thus her anger at them isn’t justified (Not Ryan though, he sucks), and she’s mad at herself for being mad at them, and it hurts
Exactly!
Refresh my memory. What did Ethan do, again?
He was all sexy and gay and kind and respectful and perfect just like he was, and thus forced Joyce to reconsider her asinine, but comfortable, worldviews.
And maybe Joyce really isn’t angry at him or Becky or Dorothy, but I’d find it difficult to believe she wasn’t on some level, given the amount of sudden change they’ve inadvertently introduced into her life. Ethan’s not deserving of anger, and Joyce knows it, but that doesn’t make the anger not exist.
well, he did sort of enable her initial belief that homosexuality is a thing that could be fixed, while they were (briefly) dating. in that respect i could see him as a conduit for her own self-loathing, and on some level she could resent him for that? idk. mental gymnastics are involved and anger isn’t exactly rational.
but really, in the last couple months, joyce’s blinders have been ripped the hell off.
I think she’s okay with Ethan. They had their confrontation and Ethan still wanted to be her friend. Though she may still be angry with herself on that one.
But even if you’ve talked it out, and you still platonically love that person, you can still be angry at them. Often you might not even realize your anger. And anger can often be undeserved and unfair. Like Neeks said, anger isn’t rational. Her subconscious isn’t going to say “oh yay! We talked and it’s fine now. Time to get rid of this excess anger, resentment, and jealousy. ” that anger and resentment can still hang around. Even if it’s just lurking in the shadows for a while.
She’s angry at “her home”.
“Because every time home shows up here, i like home a little less.”
Now she’s at home.
And home shows it’s ugly face, which she cannot ignore any longer.
“its”, dammit!
“…and lo, the ninth gate opened, and Joyce’s rage poured out like lava from Pompeii, destroying everything and anyone in her path, leaving only the sound of children screaming in the distance…”
It wasn’t actually lava. It was lots and lots of molten burning ash.
Raining down and burying them in choking smoke and death.
^_^ =D ^_^
Meanwhile, nearby Herculaneum was washed over with boiling mud.
No body remembers Herculaneum.
I remember Herculaneum.
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Oh, god, I almost peed myself!
Hail and well met, fair Nobody. How fareth thee after blinding yon cyclops?
And lo, we all knew that things could not possibly get worse.
And then John called her “pompeiiss.”
And lo, we knew that they could.
*plays Pompeii on the hacked Muzak*
did i do it rightFirst off, Someone made this from yesterday.
Dumbing of Triangle (Now click on the day): DAY 18
Old strips still being ported: http://imgur.com/a/7FHYX
This is wonderous.
Relevant.
Are there any more Amazi-Joyce strips?
Well, there is this: https://40.media.tumblr.com/15e603676bc8968290906e2829a863c3/tumblr_o51jpeqtgL1v4m9dto1_1280.png
You done made an album, too:
http://imgur.com/a/Z4bbe
Wolf… Is this what you’ve been doing for the past two weeks?
Yes. He is under my imperial instructions to do so too.
YOU. You….. I’m telling Bain.
Okay, John looks less like a sorta passive jerk in the DoT version, and more like he enjoys egging Joyce on, like he knows exactly what he’s doing. He reminds me of some sort of villain, from a Bond film or something.
The menu is a nice touch.
Well, Triangle-Joyce has snapped. I can hear the maniacal laughter in the background of that last panel.
Welp time to use your new found heat vision on all the fools, Joyce.
“Burn.“
“Geez, Joyce, you’re so angry.” “I HAD A GUN POINTED AT ME BY THE HOMOPHOBIC FATHER OF MY BEST FRIEND HOW THE FUCK WOULD YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?!”
I pray to God that this is just “I’ve never seen you act like this before” and not “You really should just calm down about almost getting shot at,” but knowing the Browns and knowing that John is apparently the “good” Brown brother (in Carol’s eyes, which speaks unfortunate volumes about him) makes me feel like it’s probably going to be the latter. :\
This is unquestionably “you need to calm down, your anger is unacceptable.” That’s all that John cares about, here. Her anger is his reason to dismiss her, and that’s why he twigged on it so quickly.
Plus focusing on her tone was a convenient way to derail from the fact that he was foolishly judging a situation that he didn’t actually understand. Efficient!
Nononono. Fundamentalist men in good standing never do not understand a situation involving a woman. Because penis. *nodnod*
Seriously, mansplaining is one of the Holy Sacraments in that subculture.
Yep. Men know it all. Women know far less, so we should always defer to the menfolk in our family. Preferably in rank. And as the eldest son, John is 2nd in command of the family and since their not is not physically present, John is the leader. Joyce should be demurely deferring to his judgement. And his judgement, as a fundamentalist man, is likely that women should never express negative emotions. It’s bad for them to be angry or sad or anything other than happy and contented, really. If she feels anything other than that and dares to express it, it might affect the men around her. And we can’t have that. So she must appear to be happy and contented always. No matter what.
It’s worse than dismissing her. Her anger is his reason to make her his pet project of the moment.
Well, her anger and the fact that she’s a woman feeling and expressing it too. Her gender has a lot to do with him disapproving of her letting her anger show.
You know, looking back at this, there’s no reason to assume it’s not both.
It could be one parts “I’ve never seen my baby sister like this and it concerns me” and two parts “your anger is unacceptable, you need to watch your tone.” People are weird like that. They don’t just have one solitary set in stone reason for doing things, oftentimes there’s a lot of nuanced history that makes them who they are and motivates their actions and reactions.
And yeah, I get that these are characters, but they’re characters designed to be as close to real people as humanly possible. And as I’ve say in previous comics concerning Hank, real people are complicated clusterfucks of emotion and contradiction.
I’m not trying to excuse John’s behavior by any means; he’s completely in the wrong here by focusing on Joyce’s anger instead of the reasons why someone who’s usually so upbeat and happy might be angry. I’m just suggesting the idea that it’s complete wrongness driven by more than one motivation.
TL;DR PEOPLE ARE FUCKING CONFUSING.
slaaaaaaaaaaaay
Not really sure what John expected to happen…okay, that’s not true, I know exactly what he expected to happen. The question now is, now that Joyce has snapped, will he back off, or double down with the condescending rhetoric?
Double down, definitely. I’m half-wondering if he’s deliberately provoking her so he can try to tear her down while trying to seem morally superior.
Yeah, absolutely. Since yelling loudly in restaurants is frowned upon, and overall not a very good method for dealing with anger, Joyce has unwittingly given John a foothold to further dismiss her on the grounds of being “hysterical”, “overreacting”, “PMS-y”, etc. And if, in addition, Joyce is understandably embarrassed by her ourburst, that will provide further leverage by which he can control her.
HAHA! It’s funny because it’s fucked up!
Yes, he’ll double down if he isn’t scared into the after life. But I think she’s beyond embarrassment at this point. She’s not in the back-down zone either.
Also, I don’t think John will say “PMS-y”. It’s a bit too explicit from someone of that background.
I doubt he’d say “PMS-y” as well, given his background and the fact that this is his sister. But it’s the thought that counts, so he can pick any word he’d like to dismiss Joyce’s femininely righteous anger, and it will all be the same bs.
“Hysterical”, though…
He will also dismiss her for being his “baby sister” and for her “acting like a child.” I wonder if he will use to say to her and/or their parents that she’s clearly not mature enough to go to such a secular school so far from home.
But even that comes down to her gender. She is the “baby sister” and he is the eldest brother. If their dad is not physically present, she should defer to his judgement. And she’s not doing that and is acting out over it. And he will think she’s acting like a child partially because she’s so much younger, so he’s always seen her as a baby, but also partially because she’s a woman. And, you know, women are just so volatile when a proper God-fearing man isn’t there to control her.
More than likely. I’m curious if mom put him up to this, or if he’s decided to force this confrontation on his own.
I don’t think he wanted this confrontation, I think he’s just being a jackass, I think he actually wanted a quite chance to catch up with Joyce and his inherent jackassery got in the way.
I agree. I think he wanted a nice, sweet family catch-up, but got his hackles up over Joyce making it clear that Becky was coming too. That amplified his assholery (which was likely already there.).
The mark of a true jerk is that they ALWAYS double down, because they can’t stand the possibility they might be wrong.
i dont think he’ll give up. he doesnt look scared or even shocked in the last panel. chances are he’ll stop talking but not let it go though. but im guessing he would continue trying to defend himself (from.. dunno?) until jocelyn stops him for real
First, Happy Birthday to our illustrious bard. Next, it appears Joyce is about to sing her new hit: “Don’t it make my blue eyes red.” Percussion will be played on her big brothers skull.
Yeahno. That’s way too much of a slow song. The percussion will be more appropriate for death metal.
Congratulations!
You called it yesterday!
Joyce, what are you thinking expressing a negative emotion??? Doing something other than smiling with your face??? IN PUBLIC???????
This and yesterday’s strip hit pretty close to home for me. I think every girl has gotten some kind of criticism related to not looking happy and pleasant to a man at some point, even if it’s more subtle than this. Something like a stranger telling her to smile because it makes her prettier, being told off for raising her voice when no one was listening to her when she tried to speak normally, or…. Just this. I doubt this is the first time someone in her family has pushed Joyce to permanently be all smiles and I’m glad she’s aware enough now (and angry enough) to say fuck that noise.
Agreed. This is hitting some big nerves for me. And I noticed in the comments that a lot of people were picking up on that misogyny.
It immediately read as that misogynistic, patriarchal, fundamentalist women-must-always-be-happy crap to me, but also had that casual misogyny vibe too. That casual misogyny that isn’t just a fundie-thing. The kind we experience often but many times can’t convince the men in our lives just how misogynistic it is nor just how often we encounter it.
Anyway, I was worried I was reading too deeply or was paranoid or something, then I skimmed the comments and thought “phew! I’m NOT crazy.”
But that’s what that kind of misogyny does. Makes you question your own sanity because you’re so often told that the truth isn’t the truth. “That guy wasn’t being misogynistic by telling you to smile. He was just trying to cheer you up.” “So that guy grabbed your ass. So what? He thinks you’re hot. Take it as a compliment.”
All our lives we’re told to shut our eyes to what’s right in front of our faces.
Well, of course you thought you were crazy! You’re a woman who thinks a man did/said something that deserved an angry response- you’d have to be delusional or stupid to think that! Are you on your period or something?
But yup, exactly. I’ve seen a lot of people in the comments blaming fundie culture for this and I’m sure it’s worse there, but I’m not from that culture and I’ve definitely still experienced it. We’re trained to ignore it and focus on the more concrete and extreme examples of sexism, for a few reasons, but it still exists. It all comes down to woman existing to be appealing to men- and not many men like being told they’re not being appreciated right now.
John,
You Fucking Ass!!
You had her right back from the brink, after you repeatedly antagonized her.
( You cant say she didnt warn you multiple times. )
She gave the opportunity to defuse it.
All you had to say was ‘Im worried”
“Sis, are you OK?”
Instead you tone-police her even more, and then insult her.
What the F’ns wrong with you?
“And when my best friend was KIDNAPPED AT GUNPOINT, I reserve the right to be angry at the world that ANYONE would think this was okay!”
Yeah but Joyce herself doesn’t have any more right to this anger than Becky, after all it was BECKY this shit happened to, not Joyce.
Joyce was a bystander at best, and then she made the choice to throw herself into the mix by insisting Sal take her after the chase and then her choice to punch Toedad.
What in Hell has Joyce got to whine about so loudly. I just dont’ get it.
If it was about Becky it would be, but it’s not.
Joyce had her world view tuned upside down, don’t a lot of college students. I did.
Joyce had a close call, when the guy tried the date rape drink -but her friends were there to rescue her and baby her for weeks afterwards.
So did I and pretty much said well that was scary and now it’s over: and never drank an open drink again. Only cans and never set them down. (pour out some soda add a touch of my favorite booze).
I’ve never had a gun in my face, but I’ve been shot at by idiots. I lived thru it, it’s done.
I guess I’m just not too sorry for Joyce. My sorry is reserved for people who need it – like Becky.
Excuse me, what? Because you reacted calmly to attempted rape, that makes anyone who gets upset or even traumatized about it (as you said in an orphaned comment down there) a crybaby? Seriously?
If Joyce hadn’t asked Sal to take her, Amazi-Girl would have died. And probably Becky.
Joyce and Sal saved the day there.
Also, threatened at gunpoint.
But sure, a bystander who’s whining too much because she doesn’t… forget things five seconds after they happened?
Yes, your sorry is so reserved for Becky. As you demonstrated so well yesterday by repeatedly taking John’s side and minimising what she had to deal with.
People react to things differently, and it’s lucky for you that you are resilient, as is Becky, but Joyce isn’t as resilient as you are and that’s ok.
Also you don’t have to be sympathetic towards only one character at a time. There can be enough kindness for everyone.
And if the comic was about Becky being upset that Joyce was so angry and that Joyce’s anger was distracting from her own problems, you’d have a point. If it was about Joyce demanding that her own traumas were more important than Becky’s, you’d have a point.
But it’s not. It’s not even mostly about Joyce’s problems, though her trauma definitely feeds into her anger. She’s mostly angry that her family is dismissing Becky’s situation or even sympathizing with her attacker.
Anger is not a finite resource with claim rights. Joyce doesn’t need a “right” to be angry. All she need is human empathy and love for the best friend she grew up with.
That aside: John is also being an ass to Joyce as well as Becky. Joyce just need basic self-respect to be angry at this guy treating her like a child while acting like one himself.
Right. Because having a gun pointed at her by a man who was like a second father to her growing up, watching her best friend get kidnapped, and now being condescended to by someone who ought to love her for daring to have negative feelings about her experiences, she doesn’t have a “right” to that anger. Bullshit.
Not sure you are trollingNow sure you are trolling!
Dude, when somebody robbed my car I was angry enough that I wanted that person to die in a drone strike, preferably from a missile made of his hollowed out family.
Now picture somebody doing that to your body. While you’re present. They just prove to you that you’re not safe and there’s nothing you can really do about it.
Man, it’s almost as if nearly being shot by someone you trusted and almost having your best friend kidnapped by her father as he uses his religion as a shield and justification, a religion you also have of course, and watching your best friend struggling to stabilize her life afterwards, might make somebody bitter and angry!
Get with the program John. Joyce may be the youngest, and your baby sister, but she IS allowed to be angry and bitter sometimes.
Yeah, I’d be more worried if Joyce was all smiles and giggles regarding the incident than her being upset.
John better not be as condescending with Christi.
“John better not be as condescending with Christi.”
Ahahaha. Ha ha. Ha.
Your hope is charming but misguided.
On my first pass, I mistook that final ‘i’ for a ‘!’, and the mental image that produced made me laugh.
That’s the problem. She isn’t allowed to have those feelings, and she’s certainly not allowed to express them.
Ex-fucking-actly this.
Part of the reason she’s so angry has to be residual from last night too. We never saw Joyce snap at her mother, and it’s probably because…well, she’s not ALLOWED to. That’s her mom. She has to bow her head and be quiet. But with a brother, especially the brother she knows least…? Joyce can snap at him and speak up. And man, that has to feel so GOOD. To finally get to yell the things she’s been wanting to.
I ALMOST feel bad for John, but then he also brought this on himself by not considering Joyce’s emotions. I don’t think he’s really asked her about anything other than her arm. No ‘how’s school’, no ‘how are you holding up’… augh. I’m glad Joyce isn’t taking that shit lying down.
Not to this extent. Especially when your best friend is coping so much better than you.
Coping is relative. Becky seems to be coping better because she’s not yelling in the middle of a restaurant. But we have seen that Becky puts on a mask. She intentionally makes jokes, laughs, and shrugs things off. It may look like she’s coping better, but masks are dangerous. Becky’s more confident, more optimistic, and more sure of herself. Joyce is less so, she’s used to things being black and white. Joyce is confused, upset, angry on behalf of her friend, and fed up. Part of the reason Joyce’s anger is to this extent is that she’s been holding back a LOT of anger for a while now. Now she’s snapped. I imagine when we see Becky snap, it won’t be any better.
and, like. she came in making Nazi jokes. that’s sort of the definition of not coping well???
OK, first of all, Becky’s not coping -well-. She’s using her normal coping mechanisms, sure; but they sure aren’t ones that are healthy in the long run. The day when she can finally let down her guard is the day when she’ll be crying all day; and -that- will be a healthy coping mechanism. Right now, all she does is deliberately pushing that day further and further away; and the more she pushes it away, the harder it will hit her when it finally comes.
Second of all, this isn’t a fucking pissing contest of who’s got the biggest trauma. And people are damn well allowed to deal with their traumas in other ways than you are. Yeah, I saw your comment above how you dealt with your shit. I’m genuinely surprised that someone who did deal with that shit is so utterly dismissive of other people’s ways of dealing with things.
Finally, Joyce would not be so fucking angry right now if John hadn’t kept pushing her with his stupid tone-policing. In fact, she was starting to cope better with things as it was. Her conversation with Hank in the car was a good one, for example. Before that, she made some headway with helping out Joe. What keeps dragging Joyce back down is people like Carol and John.
Also, this times a lot. Trauma is different for everybody. Just because I was about to cope with something that happened to me as a child (and I say cope loosely, because basically I just had to accept it and move on) doesn’t mean I expect anybody that has ever been sexually assaulted, nearly or otherwise, to just accept it and move on. Some people can’t, some people have their trust shattered. Joyce saw that boy’s face all over when she would walk around on her own. She had a nightmare where he showed up and trust me, having a nightmare that addresses that subject shakes you up. Can’t we just agree that Joyce and Becky have both been put through the wringer and deserve understanding and compassion?
*able, not about
Becky is definitely bottling everything up, not coping well. Becky’s coping mechanisms are similar to mine, and let me tell you a secret. Wacky antics/dramatics don’t work in the long run. Becky’s either going to snap like Joyce just did or start getting bitter.
I don’t think Becky’s going to scream; I think she’s going to cry.
Of course, Joyce did that first.
John is such a fucking scumbag. Infantalizing and dismissing Joyce so utterly. Nothing she has to say, nothing she thinks or feels or experienced could possibly matter to John as much as the fact that she’s unacceptably angry here. Nothing is as important as her tone. I can’t even guess at how many times I’ve seen this BS in the wild.
I’m glad I’m not alone in this. My siblings would do this dumb ish too. “Ugh why do you look so sad? Sound so sad?” Maybe bish, cause I am?! Try to process that!
Get em, Joyce. Happy Birthday Willis
John, John, John, do not attempt to tone police your sister, particularly after Mr. McIntyre held her and her best friend up at GUN POINT.
Granted, he has no idea Joyce has been overhearing her mom’s bullshit and was pissed as it was, but he’s making it worse rapidly.
I don’t know a single thing about John, so I’m trying really hard not to go “Hey, John, women can be angry too you dipshit”.
Instead, I’ll just say… Hey John. Maybe try thinking about what your sister and her bestfriend just went through before judging her for… what? having human emotions? What is wrong with you.
/bitterSaki
I feel bad for Bex and Jocelyne. Sitting next to people who are fighting is bad enough, but when they’re both people you care about, it’s just… Agh. I wanna hug every woman in this strip.
Oh and hey! Happy birthday Willis! Your first birthday since you’re a dad! XD
Worse, they’re in a booth, and Joss and Becky are near the wall. They can’t run away without attracting attention, and that’s the last thing they need right now.
Yeah, people are too quick to jump on John. Sure he’s likely to turn out to be a jerk, but so far all we’ve seen is him falling into familiar scripts that everybody has internalized in our culture. Good guy or scumbag, I think it’s reasonable to assume he’s not prepared for this conversation.
Trained professionals may not be prepared for this.
Maybe Batman, but he’s a fictional character.
Somebody call Amazi-girl. She’s always prepared for anything.
And her fastest means of transportation to get there from Bloomington is a skateboard and a grappling hook.
And she has to get there as fast as possible…in one piece.
Who woulda guessed Joyce was possessed by Saika this whole time?
Yay for Durarara references! <3
I’m kinda sad the anime just ended.
If she’s possessed by Saika than she’s a damn good host.
Edit: I meant she’s an excellent host.
you know he dead.
I said yesterday that she sounds angry because she is angry; good call, eh? Did anyone else think that?
I am simultaneously concerned for joyce and proud of her right now…
SO PROUD of Joyce here!!!
Oh gee You fucking noticed.
I’m really hoping that it turns out that John was purposely making Joyce angry, so that she would release her stress and not end up stabbing their mom or something. Probably isn’t going to happen though.
He does not seem that smart, it’s feels more like ignorance.
But if he didn’t sound ignorant, it wouldn’t fool her.
It’s definitely ignorance. The kind of ignorance that can only be derived from the smug self assurance that you are, as the superior gender, closer to God. The kind of ignorance that allows you to dismiss anything a woman has to say out of hand simply because she is a woman and therefore does not matter.
When you grow up in a bible thumping household, you get to experience a lot of this first hand. Joyce is just starting to figure out the hypocrisy because her mom and oldest brother are showing her that “unconditional love” only applies as long as she’s an obedient, servile, mind-slave.
John doesn’t know it, but he should be looking for a bomb shelter.
Oh, it need not be gender-related. I’m a dude, and I’ve still met those guys. There’s something that makes them superior.
Heck, while I never had the “closer to God” thing, I struggle with this sometimes. Ironically, it’s particularly when I’m angry and I don’t realize the inherent contradiction.
It COULD just be the older sibling thing. I could imagine this sort of behavior out of an older sister just as easily.
Otherwise, dead-on.
Probably more gender-based than anything. The culture they were raised in says women should be demure and submissive and men are the decision-making, infalliable voices of logic and reason.
Becky’s parents are an extreme example, but John’s demonstrating these tendencies.
Which is odd as Hank comes across as more of a href=”http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HenpeckedHusband”>henpecked Husband
He seems to find it easier to just let other people have their way than stand up for his own principles (including Carol and Ross).
And I mucked up the link..
henpecked Husband
That would be a terrible idea anyway, especially without supervision and a concrete plan (and no doubt he’d go for things he’s heard upset her throughout his life rather than in the last week, both because of familiarity and to not traumatize her).
Go Joyce!
JOYCE JOYCE JOYCE JOYCE
I love this comic
JOYCE! JOYCE! JOYCE!
(also oh my god shit is about to go DOWN)
I mean, really, she only had to deal with her best friend coming out/being homeless, having a rifle pointed at her by a man she’d known her whole life, watching helplessly as her best friend was kidnapped at gunpoint, watched another person fall off a moving vehicle and nearly become roadkill, see the vehicle her best friend was in flip over, violently confronting said best friend’s father, and all this after previously being drugged and nearly sexually assaulted. All of this contributing to a changing worldview where she starts questioning everything she was always so sure of, including the unconditional love of her parents.
I mean, really, isn’t she being just a little over-dramatic?
/sarcasm
YES! Let the hate flow through you!
Didn’t know you are a fan of the Dark Side.
Wrong Megatron.
John placing the blame on Becky for Joyce’s “hysterical over-reaction” in 3… 2… 1… (or for us in the real world, sometime in the next 24 – 72 hours).
Happy Birthday (damn you!) Willis!
Oh, no. Poor Joyce.
Don’t get me wrong, John deserves a smackdown, but Joyce must be hurting so much right now and this won’t be pleasant. I can’t take joy in it.
(but need tomorrow’s comic today OH MY GAWD WHAT COMES NEXT)
happy-Birthday Willis.
JOYCE YOU ROCK.
Happy birthday Willis (you douche)
THE EYES THE EYES
NEGAJOYCE IS RIDES AGAIN
Also sorta hope Becky, at some point makes a
“Joyce is hot when she’s angry” comment.
Happy Birthday Willis!
Anger leads to bitterness, bitterness leads to suffering…
And red eyes and LIGHTNING HANDS! So keep with it and you’ll get there!
“I am what I am”
Am I quoting Popeye or YHWH?
[Kosh]Yes[/Kosh]
Happy birthday, Willis! DESTROY HIM, JOYCE.
And finally, once the rage was unleashed, a Demon infested her soul and gave her laser eyes.
Gonna change my name just so I don’t have to share it with Joyce’s assbutt brother.
Welcome, brother!
I don’t know how this strip can possibly keep getting better but it does.
John was really not paying attention when she said; “I think it was a proportionate response”
Anybody notice that it’s the Browns that have/inherited Hank’s big blue eyes that aren’t horrible?
I believe it was mentioned by someone else in comments previously this storyline.
The browns who have blue eyes are awesome. But sometimes the Browns with brown eyes will provoke the eyes of the Browns with blue eyes to turn red.
Happy birthday Mr. Willis!
One eye, two eye, red eye, brown e—- …..I’ve made a terrible mistake.
Coincidence. The daughters get Hank’s eyes, the sons get Carol’s.
The only way to prove that is if we see Jordan. If Cacturne’s right, he’ll have blue eyes. Unless he went too far the other way, even by our standards.
Willis has actually said that kids get eyes from the opposite-gendered parent.
John gets his mother’s eyes, Joyce and Jocelyne get their father’s eyes. Unless Jordan is also transgender, he’ll have his mother’s eyes.
My mom was abusive, and she used to pull this, ‘Do you realize how angry/snotty you sound?’ all the time. It’s emotional abuse, trying to make the other party feel unreasonable.
Mm, same, and as well as that, putting emotions on you when you’re not at all angry or anything, just so they can be mad- something I could totally see Carol doing.
I just realised that John’s trying to avoid accepting Joyce’s emotions as legitimate. “Just listen to yourself, you sound so angry.” As if Joyce couldn’t possibly be angry. I don’t have enough info to understand John’s thought processes, so this could be one of a few things.
Does he think Joyce doesn’t get angry? Does he think women can’t/shouldn’t/don’t get angry? Or the worst answer, does he not understand why Joyce could possibly be angry?
I suspect it’s a slight combination of the three, and none of them say good things about John’s ideas of society. I’ll reserve judgement until I see his reaction to this verbal ass kicking.
there might also be a touch of not thinking that anger is a valid/healthy emotion to express, and should be repressed at all times (cuz bottling everything up is super healthy). thus her sin here is not just having the negative emotion, but also showing it.
Wrath is a deadly sin after all. And the meek shall inherit the earth. La la la theological bullshit.
mark down wrath next to her other sins, I’d go back and find that 1 comic comic where they’re listed, but I’m not that diligent.
Wrath, gluttony, lust, pride, greed, sloth, and envy are all of them, not sure if that helps.
I meant the 1 comic listing all those she had already committed.
As I understand it, wrath is generally a form of harsh penalty being inflicted by the furiously angry, in a potentially indiscriminate manner. It isn’t necessarily violent or physical, but it is nearly always in some way extreme, disproportionate in magnitude to a perceived offense, or misdirected – and nearly always represents an abuse of personal power.
Like the other deadlies, wrath can be said to lie at the “overdoing it” end of an imaginary scale measuring the relative degree of a person’s “indulgence” in a range of behavior.
It just so happens that, thanks to the originating theological worldview blaming individuals who have little in the way of personal power for the tragedies that befall them and their social circles, the idea of “deadly sins” is synonymous with the concept of “personal vices” or “personality flaws” in general, and even the most moderate and controlled “indulgence” in behaviors that (if they were to be taken to their most extreme) reside lower on the same imaginary scales that each of the deadlies are measured upon.
It probably shouldn’t be surprising that, having been incorporated into the structure of their religious dogma, and absorbed into the mainstream of their culture, “good Christians” tend to view any exceptional deviation from their prescription for subdued emotional behavior as signs of having “fallen from the path”, or sinful.
If one were to think in a more rational manner than this, it’d be easier to say that the deadly sins are only deadly if you overdo it – the same sort of logic that dictates that a substance’s toxicity is dependent on the dosage consumed.
Ur slow.
Oh crap, this is amazing!
Also, happy birthday!
Wait! Tell me more life-hacks about how to find out my SSN if I lost the card!
Holy shit Joyce got herself sharingan eyes!
but seriouslly, I bet this conversation is going somewhere like this:
Joyce: Of course I’m angry! Since I got here everyone has treating Becky as a fucking criminal! She’s Becky! Doesn’t anyone remember the girl who has been my best friend for my entire life!? The one you saw grow up with me and you know is such a good person!? And she was just attacked by her father! Hell, I aways thought we were the kind of people that helped the ones in need, but instead everyone acts as if it was her faut, we can’t even show empathy for my best fucking friend!? She is a girl who was thrown out of her family for no fucking reason!!
John: There was a reason-
Joyce: sharingan level two
Well, killing a family member will help her with that…
Plot twist: “Too Jordan” means he was exiled from the Brown clan for slaying his extended family to test his potential.
With this family I’m not sure she’d be wrong.
Run John!
But that brace is gonna interfere with the hand signs.
Burn…Amaterasu!!
“HOW DO I SOUND NOW, JOHN?”
“well NOW that I KNOW that you are angry, yeah that is totally the tone I would use. You still can’t though, you’re a girl”
Reading the comments has made me slightly confused. Is there a reason we’re hating John? Some of his comments might have upsetting interpretations or subtext but Joyce keeps cutting him off. We don’t actually know what he was gonna say. He might not be a douchebag. He could just be an adult justifiably upset with his sister less than stellar attitude during a long overdue reunion. Joyce basically threatened him. I mean this is probably wishful thinking but I don’t like jumping to conclusions. Plesse key mean in if I’m missing something.
To my knowledge, you’re not. This can cut one of two ways, normally towards bad. I, too, hold out for a subtlety that Willis was not able to impart that will help explain the appearance of Jonathan talking down to Joyce.
Nah, I think you picked up on the subtlety perfectly.
John’s talking down to Joyce, dismissing her anger and Becky’s problems.
Well, telling Joyce that punching a person that threatened them with a loaded gun is a “pretty extreme” reaction, then implying that the fallout of Toedad’s actions are Becky’s fault seems pretty reasonable cause for being upset at him, for a start.
See this is what’s a little confusing and I fully admit I could be giving John too much credit but does he know the full story? If just hearing the story secondhand probably from his mom punching someone in the face is an extreme reaction. As for Becky he might not be implying fault at all. She should know her S.S. # or how to get it cause she’s 18. So he could just think that’s strange and she should know these things before she gets a job and lives on her own instead of y’know trying to steal Jocelyn’s identity. I’m just giving the benefit of the doubt to a character i’ve only known for 4 or 5 strips. He could legitimatly be a complete privileged asshole.Just my thoughts on it.
I like benefits of the doubt too. So then there’s a reason for you: John plainly isn’t giving out any.
Hrrrmmm? Now I can see where you’re coming from on that. He’s definitly less empathetic.
I don’t see how anyone could not know the kidnapped-and-threatened-with-a-gun detail without their first question being “So why’s he in jail then, exactly?”
We already know that the bless-his-heart-he-thought-he-was-doing-the-right-thing brigade is at work in this circle. Having trouble seeing why this is a question, to be honest.
“But maybe he’s being condescending while having literally no information” doesn’t make him better.
It’s really bizarre that people think kids raised in abusive, controlling households will have access to important documents that allow them their independence. I fled home with no ID, no bank card and no money because I didn’t know where those things were plus I never thought that was weird because in my experience “that’s how it was”. I had to get my NIN number later (UK SSN) and luckily I had been taken in by my bio dad so had a birth certificate as identification. I lucked out there, not everyone ends up with someone who has their documents (or copies of them). As soon as you hit 18 you don’t magically acquire life skills you know?
Practically speaking, with Ross in jail and Becky’s mom dead, she shouldn’t have too much trouble gaining legal access to her house as it is her legal residence of record. Regardless, her SSN shouldn’t be to hard to get from Social Security Administration.
There’s a lot of Catch-22 involved in that, though. Sure, it’s Becky MacIntyre’s legal residence, but how does she prove that she’s Becky MacIntyre, and thus the legal resident, without any legal ID? How does she get legal ID without her SSN or birth certificate? How does she get her SSN or birth certificate without legal ID or access to the house?
I don’t buy the “only heard about it from his mother and so only knows a distorted version of the story” argument. Even if it’s true, what does that say about him?
If you knew your little sister was involved in some kind of altercation that left the other guy hurt and in jail, wouldn’t you try to find out more about it. “Shooter on campus” is going to be all over the local news at least.
Also, Joyce has shown few signs of aggression up until now. I have an older brother, and one time, he had to pick me up from detention after school. He asked me, “Why’d you get detention?” and I said, “I hit a guy.” My brother, making a logical leap about what he knew about me and how out of character that was, asked, “What’d he do?” He assumed, rightly, that there had been provocation, and assumed that I had a good reason for doing what I did. He took my side, until he had a reason to disapprove of my action. He let me be innocent until proven guilty, because he’s my brother, and that’s his instinct.
John, meanwhile, upon hearing that Joyce, a girl who’s shown few signs of aggression up until now, has punched a man she’s known her whole life, assumes that Joyce over reacted. I don’t care what story their mother fed him, I don’t care if she told him that Toedad showed up with bunches of flowers and chocolates for everyone, as soon as Joyce says, I hit Becky’s dad, an alarm bell should’ve gone off in John’s head.
This is his sister. He’s SUPPOSED to be on her side. He’s supposed to give her the benefit of the doubt, and he’s not. He sided, without asking a simple question or two, with Toedad, he assumed that Joyce’s actions were not justified.
John’s an asshole.
All of this.
Well, that’s still a bit on him if he only heard the story from Carol. We know that the story was reported on in the news, so the mention of Ross having a gun should at least be public record even if carol left that bit out.
As far as the SSN, Becky’s comment to Jocelyne read to me as pretty clearly a joke, which is part of the problem with his response, as if he’s expecting the worst of her. And yeah, she’s 18 so should probably have been TAUGHT her SSN, but she was homeschooled and Ross was pretty dang controlling; not giving her an SSN has pretty effectively left her in a helpless position without him.
(To be honest, I wouldn’t be surprised if a fairly large portion of 18 year olds don’t know their SSN or know where their card is, especially ones that have never had a job or car like Becky).
Basically in fundie sects, a woman is supposed to be all cheerful and demure. Never showing negative emotions. So here you have John trying to emotionally abuse Joyce by telling her she should listen to her tone, expecting her to be all calm and happy.
He dismissed Joyce’s aggression towards the Gunman, who pointed a rifle at her and Becky.
He overreacted to Becky asking for Jocelyne’s SSN, completely ignoring the situation Becky’s in. And then (the real kicker) started saying something that seemed to be leading to blaming Becky for her current situation.
John’s either completely out of the loop or an utter bileclog.
John’s reactions are typical of a man indoctrinated in fundamentalist Christianity. Women are there to raise the kids, have hot meals ready on time, keep the house clean, and never EVER have a thought or opinion of their own.
I can’t speak for anyone else but I hate him because I’m projecting those attitudes I experienced as a child onto him, and so far he’s been pretty textbook.
Well – it’s not just a long overdue reunion. It’s a reunion right after that sister was menaced by a neighbor’s father with a rifle.
When he heard that Joyce defended herself against a maniac who attacked her college campus with a gun, he called her actions an “extreme response.”
He sounds a lot like Carol, too, and we know, confirmed, that Carol’s The Worst.
Er…and his fucking condescending, dismissive attitude is any better? He’s showed no interest in doing anything but diminishing Becky’s trauma and subtly blaming her for it, and tone-policing Joyce for being pissed about it.
I mean hey I’m seeing legitimate reasons to hate John here and I’m 90% sure I’m wrong especially after hearing John’s the “favorite” and the connotations that might have. But people worried about Hank and he was great. I don’t know. I’ll eat my foot if I have to.
I…disagree that Hank is great. He is less bad than Carol, for sure. But he’s got a lot of catching up to do before he gets to “great”.
“Great” might be hyperbole but you get what I’m saying right? He wasn’t evil church dad there to whisk Joyce away to be indoctrinated like some thought.
The thing is, Hank’s public opinion arc went “oh god this is going to be bad,” to “actually he’s pretty awesome, go Dad Brown!” to “oh dear we may have been premature.” So no…he wasn’t as bad as we thought, but those fears weren’t altogether wrong. John may end up coming around, eventually. But that doesn’t make our suspicion towards him wrong.
Right. People worried about Hank up front, then as soon as he appeared and started acting reasonable they at least moderated their worries.
People had cautious hopes for John up front, but as soon as he appeared he started dashing those hopes.
No, he’s not “justifiably” upset. You don’t get to victim blame someone, get upset when called out it and then say it’s justified.
Did you read through yesterday’s comments? Cerb and a lot of others had many points about it. I think at best you could say ‘well, he’s saying stuff all of the shitty people say, so it’s not really a John thing’
Wait, how is he “justifiably upset” when he’s saying Joyce’s upset is unjustifiable?
Well, I mean, just because he’s is probably a judgmental jerk doesn’t mean we have to be.
…not saying anyone who’s calling him a judgmental jerk now is a judgmental jerk, just that it’s valid to give him that benefit of the doubt, for now, kinda. (not exactly a ringing endorsement :P)
Er, you don’t get the benefit of the doubt after you’ve done the thing.
At that point all you can ask for is forgiveness.
I think context has a lot to do with this, too.
For people who aren’t intimately familiar with fundamentalist Christianity, there are a lot of possible reasons John could be acting how he is, or explanations for the way he has said things. But for those of us who are — we see that this all falls directly down the lines of certain characteristics of fundamentalists, and see exactly where it’s going.
If just anybody in the world were saying the things John is, it would be a little more open to interpretation. But for the favored eldest son of fundamentalist Christians, talking to his younger sister, who is testing the boundaries of their upbringing? Yeah, there is next to zero chance this is anything but him being a condescending prick about her anger.
Especially in fiction. At this point, if he isn’t really being a condescending prick, then it’s a deliberate fake-out by Willis. Eventually the wacky misunderstanding will be revealed and everyone will hug.
But I really doubt that’s where we’re going.
Welp, I’ve seen enough Buffy Season 6 to know where this is going.
shockingly, the focus if yet again on the poor ally
like… I keep holding out hope that we’re going to focus on how the offended party wants to handle the situation (Carla, Becky) but I keep being disappointed by how hard this is on the poor allies
I mean we have been getting focus on Becky? I mean this specific scene is certainly focused on Joyce. And Becky’s first reaction to many things tends to be deflection, and trying to keep things light hearted, so the effects this has on her isn’t always apparent. But Becky certainly plays a bigger role in the story than just existing to teach Joyce a lesson about tolerance.
Joyce’s anger yesterday was directed at John for the way he was treating Becky. It wasn’t all about Joyce.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/extreme/
I think that was a point Willis was trying to acknowledge with this strip. And yet one more reason why Jocelyne is The Best.
Are….. are you implying that, somehow, Joyce also hasn’t a reason to be offended, too?
Like.
I get the direction you’re coming from, but uh, Joyce and her friends were also seriously threatened in this situation?
And in THIS specific scenario, the focus isn’t supposed to be on Becky (or Carla because she’s not even physically present), but on Joyce herself, coming to grips with a lot of very harsh realities about her own life and family.
Besides, so far, we’ve also gotten snippets on Becky’s takes and next steps here. They were literally in preceding pages. We know what direction she’s going in (no word yet on how Carla is going to handle Mary, but that will be in due time I imagine). I imagine as time goes on, we will be seeing more on those fronts.
But for now? The situation is Joyce dealing with her terrible family.
Carla because she’s not even physically present
No, they meant Carla’s story was another instance of the story being about how hard somebody being bigoted was for someone who want the target of said bigotry. They weren’t saying that Carla was supposed to be in this scene specifically.
Yeah, I feel the same way about Carla’s story last chapter as Kole, which is why I’m super down for more Carla appearances in the next few months, especially the upcoming one with her in welding gear.
I read that as “wedding gear”.
But even in THAT instance, the other people involved are…. Ruth and Billie? Who Mary was also blackmailing and generally being horrendous to? Remember?
Well, Becky handles it basically the way she has been in this scene. Being over-the-top and pushing the obnoxious boundaries.
Not only that, but putting up a happy-go-lucky facade, which is intentional for her. She’s said as much to Dina. In fact, at this point Dina probably knows her better than Joyce because Dina’s the only one Becky has opened up to about being scared and upset – Becky probably will have her reaction, once she’s back with Dina because with Dina she doesn’t have the cultural baggage of “must be more self-sacrificing than you to show you how much I care” thing that kind of dominates Becky and Joyce’s relationship to be frank.
I mean, Joyce is the main character. She kind of has to react to things. Besides, Becky reacts to problems either by being loud and obnoxious, which she already did, or by clamming up. It’s Joyce who’s in full on bloodrage mode. She’s the one who’s going to yell about things.
Carla is starting to get more focus, so I hope that helps you out. Wanting to see more representation is totally legitimate and I don’t want to, like, come off as trying to take that away from you.
Not to mention Joyce was also stressed out over her mother wanting to pull her out of school.
I don’t think Willis’s writing is as shallow as you think it is. It’s just the way his characters handle things differently.
So this is more of a reply to everyone replying to you:
Yes, there are in-universe reasons for how these stories have played out so far but that doesn’t change what Kole said. We’ve still got multiple story lines where we have seen more of how bigotry is affecting someone other than the target of the bigotry. To use the Batman vs Superman trailer as an example, there may be a reason to have all those people at that Day of the Dead celebration reaching out to Superman like that but it’s still yet another instance of a group of brown people appearing worshipful before a white person.
I still think/hope this will get addressed later. I think bringing up Becky’s SSN problem could lead to a broader discussion of how this has impacted her. I think Wilkie is trying to avoid other bad tropes, like making the marginalized characters launch into an essay to teach the bigoted character not to be bigoted immediately after being wronged by them.
But it is what it is, at least for now.
I know what Kole was saying. I’m saying that we are getting a storyline about how this all affects Becky as well. It’s just that it’s not as easy to tell because of the way Becky handles things compared to how Joyce handles things.
(Granted we haven’t been able to see Becky respond to how John is treating her yet but the scene isn’t over yet. It’s a limitation to the fact the story is being told 5-8 panels at a time a day)
I guess the way I see Becky’s story is that she’s dealing with it in a Becky way while Joyce is dealing with it in a Joyce way. If we had Becky getting super loud and angry here it wouldn’t be in-character for her, because she deals with her problems by being wacky and flippant, but it absolutely is for Joyce.
Even if I disagree and do think Becky and Joyce’s story is being well handled and giving equal focus (and even beyond that, Becky’s practically dethroned Dorothy as the deuteragonist of the series), I’m pretty much always going to sympathize with Kole’s argument, though. I don’t think it’s happening here, but it’s also something that happens so, so much that I genuinely can’t blame folks for feeling the way they do.
I reaaaallly want to see when Becky and Dina get back together. I feel like Becky is holding it together by the skin of her teeth and when she gets back, Dina is going to be her safe haven.
Well, i direct you to this page.
Which practically is the archetype of how Joyce shot down John’s “advise” of how Becky can get hold of her SSN.
Remember, the whole reason Becky’s here is she wants to be the ally for Joyce when visiting her family, not needing Joyce as ally for a visit to La Porte; a visit she has no other motivation to do – excluding a potential option to getting access to her SSN, which seems a rather unlikely option after learning (as a reader – Becky may have known this before) that her house is locked up.
Joyce has unlocked Devil Trigger. Combos extent and damage has increased!
I wonder what gritty DmC reboot Joyce would look like.
Let’s not ask dumb questions. Let’s ask good questions like, what’s her weapon? I bet it’s a magic bible that acts like Pandora
Too late. Now I’m picturing her in the Succubus fight.
“Hanky-panky you!”
“HAAANKY PAAAAANKY YOOOOOOOUUURRRRRGGGGHHHH”
I’d’ve gone with the Lucifer backpack from DMC4 for no other reason than the name.
I think Becky should determine if Joyce is bitter or not.
Probably thinks that she tastes like snozzberries.
Well that would be terrible, since she’s displayed a terrible allergy to those.
(Snozzberries was a dick joke Dahl got away with)
Got away with in Charlie and The Chocolate Factory, blatantly explained in… F**k what was the book. Uncle something or other…
My Uncle Oswald
Thank you.
Well, if John didn’t have trouble hearing before, he suddenly does now.
Maybe John should come back when it’s not possessed o’clock.
Red eyes take warning!! Red eyes take warning!!!
That new Preacher tv series looks good.
Joycey Custer using the voice of God. Tell John to go fuck himself and watch what happens.
How I really hope the next few strips go. Joyce starts floating in the air and speaking Latin.
Jocelyne: (pulls out revolver) Dammit John, you summoned a demon
John: how the hell did I do that!?
Jocelyne: They’re connect to extreme fear, anger and sadness, someone gets angry enough and the demon has a window in.
Becky: How the hell do we stop her?
Jocelyne: We have to banish the demon, best way to do that is to have Joyce remember a happy memory.
Becky: Hey Joyce! Monkey Master
(Joyce fires fireball, Becky ducks)
Becky: crap didn’t work
Jocelyne: Memories too recent, problem is all her happy memories are connected in some form to her anger, happens a lot when a parent says something stupid…however there is one more way…
John: How!?
Jocelyne: She needs to hear something shocking, something that will completely change her world view.
Becky: but I already told her I was a lesbian! Several times!
Jocelyne: Some of us have our own secrets Becky, (rolls out) Hey, Joyce…I’m transgender!
A burning shadow with flaming red eyes rises out of Joyce’s body and she drops to the floor.
Demon: No! I am the pain, the horror, the destruction, the end of all…
Jocelyne: (points gun) yeah….and I’m Jocelyne. (fires bullet through the demon, sending it back to hell)
Jocelyne turns to leave, dropping some money on the table, but just before she leaves, she turns to John:
Jocelyne: Hey, John, be nicer to our sister, one of these days she just might surpass us.
Ok, we need that drawn panel by panel by either Masashi Kishimoto or Hiromu Arakawa.
I’m in a very manga mood today and this was perfect
Or Yotomoe. The bubbly art style would contrast nicely with the dark subject matter.
Now, I really want to do a horror comic with Yotomoe
…..can we forcibly enlist Yotomoe by setting up a kickstarter for this? That would be….unethical, right?
Someone is a pretty decent writer when the spirit hits him.
I have nothing to say but “like”.
Well done.
What’s that bullet made of? o.o
Magic
So angry, so bitter, so…human. That is what you are objecting to, John. That Joyce is acting like a normal human being with normal emotions, instead of acting like a fundie stepford female.
Which really says something bad about John.
Fucking right she is. Dude doesn’t even want to understand.
She’s seein’ red, but I don’t think she’ll have to see John’s face again…because her righteous fury will melt it. (SO FOLL-OW!)
This seemed like a perfect time to draw something semi-lewd.
http://i.imgur.com/2yhKagb.png
Yotomoe, not gonna lie, that is really fucking hot.
Thank you for lightening the mood.
I didn’t know your drawings could get more adorable and then they did.
Joyce is all “Mine!” and Becky looks about to suffer a meltdown. It’s perfect XD
When is it not the time?
Semi-lewd, but fully adorable <3
Huh. I kinda want to see Joyce drawn as a member of the Red Lantern Corps now…
John, you sanctimonious prick. And even if someone explains your sister’s anger to you, you will just dismiss it as illegitimate. However, your traumas, not matter how trivial, are of Biblical importance and must be addressed immediately and effectively as such. (I’ve met enough of these people over the years, both male and female.)
he is a prick, but I don’t know where your getting the idea that he thinks his problems are more important. So far, none of his issues have been mentioned what so ever.
It’s projecting. Not even like I’m saying it as a negative thing. That’s literally the only way I can read that. I know someone like that so he has the same faults as those people, because people are all the same with no divergence in their behavior besides one extreme or the other.
This is so unnecessary. Joyce deserves to be angry, she does. But this isn’t the place, and John isn’t the one she really should be angry at. She’s been angry at Ross, and her mom, and the world, and angry for Becky. She’s bottled that up and now she’s exploding at John. He’s been rude, but he didn’t do this to Becky.
All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.
Then again other than being dismissive about the incident, he’s the only person so far that adressed and brought up ways to solve Becky’s lack of a SSN that were all shot down because at that point he was already labeled evil.
No, he hasn’t. He has done jack fucking shit. ‘It should be written down somewhere, which somehow means you have access to it, even though there is literally no way for you to know where, and probably don’t have access to it, even if you do’ and ‘you should have thought of that before your life was upended by the psychopath trying to kidnap you’ aren’t good advice. They’re victim blaming, plain and simple.
“It’s written down somewhere” is not, in fact, ‘a way to get your SSN’. It’s expressing the hope that her card physically exists. THIS IS NOT IN ANY WAY MEANINGFUL HELP.
Especially since he said that while hijacking Joss’s actual attempt to engage Becky about her situation, which would be likely to lead to real practical advice.
No one else even questioned her about it yet. And Joyce cut him off. Maybe he hadn’t helped yet but he certainly started bringing up the questions and statements one would if the goal is to make sure a girl has a social security number.
Joyce cut him off at a point after he was done talking about the Social Security number. And since then he’s been focusing on telling Joyce about her bitter and angry she sounds, in a dismissive tone.
Fair enough.
You’re misremembering.
Jocelyne asked Becky about her situation, seemed ready to give advice.
John then stepped in, accused Becky of actually planning identity theft (talk about not giving people the benefit of the doubt!), then gave condescending pseudo-advice, and actively dismissed Joyce’s pointing out that it wasn’t considering Becky’s actual situation.
Dina asked if Becky has a little card, which was not very helpful but more helpful than John. (and also a LOT more respectful and said in a context that invited Becky to ask for help rather than to be put down)
He brought up no such thing.
True, he did bring it up, but it was by jumping on Becky for what was most likely a joke. The closest thing to advice he gave her was that it had to be ‘around somewhere’.
And when Joyce pointed out why the most straightforward options really wouldn’t work for Becky, instead of backing off or giving advice on how to obtain your SSN with limited-to-no documentation (which to be fair he probably wouldn’t be able to do in this setting without pulling out his phone to research), he went to implying Becky was to blame for failing to plan ahead for extremely adverse circumstances she had no reason to expect were coming. He’s not quite Carol, but not the best showing for John here.
Evil? Are we only painting with black and white? While John’s ‘advice’ does not solve the issue of Becky getting a (or her) SSN it is still advice that is quite frankly- necessary. ‘But I’m disadvantaged and oh poor me’ isn’t going to be an acceptable defense if she were caught using someone else’s soc.
Just because John isn’t offering an immediate solution should certainly not paint him as evil. Surely he was given -every- opportunity to provide a well thought out response with a raging Joyce jumping down his throat.
Is Joyce mad? Sure. Does she have the right to be? Yes. Is she doing what every human being does when they are angry, hurt, or frustrated? Sure. But right now she is being overly sensitive to a pain point simply because it is abrasive. The point is not wrong and while that may be upsetting… it is the wrong thing to blow your top over.
This is exactly the issue with 2/3 of the comments I’ve seen in the recent releases. People are applauding Joyce for just losing it. This is fundamentally wrong. No sex, no ethnicity, no (insert whatever else here) has the right to simply lash out indiscriminately simply because they are (or feel) owed it. It’s not empowerment. It’s petty and childish. You want someone to listen? Hold yourself to a higher standard. Meh.
Wow, advising her in no way at all was completely necessary?
Well, I’m glad to know I provided Becky with some necessities now, too. I’m also not providing her with anything.
He literally gave her no advice. He said nothing.
Antagonizing an angry person and then topping it off with a “You sound angry” is pretty much asking for them to unleash the full force of their anger on you.
Yeah, BUT, continuing with the bottled up anology, you don’t continue to agitate an already shaken person. Implying to an angry and (if he’d take the time to notice) visibly traumatized person that their feelings are silly is both a shitty and dangerous thing to do.
No, no, I’d say she has absolutely every reason to be mad at John.
Oh, I disagree. John is trying to silence Joyce, tone-policing her.
Ross is a part of the tip of the iceberg. It’s a tip that includes abuse of LBGT children, abandonment, kicking them out of the house, and murdering them.
John is playing the part of the rest of the iceberg. That 90% of the iceberg can’t pretend it’s not related to the 10% that pokes out of the water. It’s all the same iceberg. And, it’s all the subject of the fires of Joyce’s righteous anger.
“so angry, so bitter” is cause enough for defenestration in ANY context
I’m pretty sure that would make me very angry, even if I wasn’t angry at all before it was said.
I dunno why I phrased this as a hypothetical. It’s a technique my mother and sister have used to make me angry (which is bad because I’m not allowed to be).
And here, my esteemed colleagues, we have quite an interesting phenomenon. Jonathan Brown, being shown on the page, has crossed the fictional barrier and become a reader of this comic. Not satisfied with trying to invalidate Joyce’s anger in comic, he’s going to invalidate all the legitimate reasons Joyce has to be mad at him.
Seriously, dude. you’re doing the very thing that John is being called an asshole for. He’s not just being rude. He’s showing a fundamental lack of love for Joyce at this point. He is very much acting just like all the other people who Joyce thought she could trust.
Because this has never been about Becky. This is about Joyce’s entire life and everything she knew burning to the ground. And Jon is sitting there with a bellows, fanning the flames.
You know what? I take this back. You aren’t doing what John is doing. You are at least validating some of her anger. There was actually a now removed comment that was actually doing what John was doing.
And when I say “this has never been about Becky,” i mean that her anger has never been because of what happened to Becky specifically. Her issues started well before that–it was just the catalyst that sparked it.
I don’t mean she’s not legitimately concerned about Becky. In that sense, it is about her. She is indeed defending Becky here. Hence the reason she has a right to be angry at John. Someone being rude to your friend who just went through trauma is a legitimate reason to be angry.
But it’s a smaller part of a larger picture.
John is being an asshole… but I do agree this is kind of unnecessary. Consider instead:
Joyce @ normal volume: I am angry, John. And if you can’t back off and respect the fact that I’m angry, after everything I’ve gone through in the past week, then I see no reason to bother having lunch with you.
I mean, I get why Joyce couldn’t keep it together like that – she has been through so much, poor coping, John’s provocations etc. But it seems to me like John is less the source of this anger, and more the tipping point in a long list of offenses to Joyce’s well-being.
Unfortunately, when you aren’t allowed to recognize or express anger at all in your whole life so far, you can’t practice good communication about your anger, such as calmly stating that you’re angry. (Can you imagine what would happen if Joyce said this to Carol? They wouldn’t validate her feelings, they’d tell her that anger is sinful and honor thy mother and all that, at best.) Joyce has no way that she is allowed to have or acknowledge her own anger, and is therefore way more likely to explode at the tipping point jerk.
That type of calm response is way beyond what I would expect from Joyce at this point in time – it’s something you have to learn how to do, and Joyce has only just learned that she can feel anger, and that anger can be justified. And I don’t really have much sympathy for John here, but I wouldn’t exactly call Joyce’s response to him proportionate. This kind of explosion is, above all, a method that’s not very kind to herself.
Ah! But I totally didn’t consider that her anger might actually be considered a sin by some people in her family! I mean, anger is not a pleasant emotion to experience and, as a woman, I’ve felt that kind of discomfort in does-an-acceptable-way-to-express-my-anger-to-others-even-exist. But I’ve never thought the feeling itself was something that anybody considered somehow morally wrong. That’s really… messed up. I mean, it’s one of the most basic and universal building blocks of the human emotional experience. And I know men in practice aren’t held up to those same standards, but are they at least nominally not supposed to be angry either?
Anger isn’t just A sin, it’s one of the seven DEADLY sins! Also known as Wrath, some scales put it as third deadliest, after Pride and Envy.
Fun fact, there used to be eight deadly sins. The extra was Depression. Talk about messed up.
Sin of depression?? uggggh.
Man, I wasn’t told this at all, but I still feel guilty about being depressed (because I’m supposed to make everyone happy, I decided that was my job as a kid, because kids make really poor life choices). Nobody needs religion adding to that super-unhelpful idea and I’m glad they chucked it.
Anyway if anger is part of Wrath, then is the going Christian idea that well we are all sinners, and sometimes we screw up, and we need to make amends as best we can, and also yay Jesus because our feelings won’t send us to Hell after all? (I wasn’t raised Christian; please forgive my very probable oversimplification of Christian beliefs.)
Yeah. I did a bit of digging around to refresh my memory, and apparently the deadly sins were first conceived to regulate the monasteries and nunneries; it was only later they were reduced to seven and distributed to the masses. Depression was on that list because how could you POSSIBLY be SAD when you’re SO close to the GLORY of GOD. Ugh.
The concept of deadly sins is not found in biblical scripture.
It is just religious bullshitting – the kind of bullshitting you can pull when you are in a position of religious authority.
Thanks Leorale & No Name!
Wrath, of course! I always though wrath wasn’t just getting angry, but when you let your anger make you cruel or violent. How silly of me! Must never be angry! Must never be sad! That is definitely a reasonable expectation of a person!
And, yeah, I think you’re on to something about how we conventionally see sees sadness as vulnerable and anger as powerful, and how that maps onto gender roles. It’s interesting because sadness need not be vulnerable, and anger is often more debilitating than empowering.
Just want to point out that the seven deadly sins are entirely a Catholic thing. I didn’t even learn about them until I met a Catholic. Mostly, we were taught that all sins were equally wrong.
You also have to realize that Catholic teaching on sin is different. There is not such a push on never being allowed to sin.
Actually, from what I’ve read, anger isn’t a sin.
The distinction between wrath and anger is that wrath is anger that becomes destructive or that causes you to commit other sins.
As an example, all forms of domestic violence would be sins of wrath.
I don’t know about their dogma, but in wider society, I think men are socially allowed to be angry, but not sad/hurt.
My pet theory is that anger seems powerful, and sadness seems vulnerable, and men must always be more powerful than women in a patriarchal system. (And people who aren’t quite covered by a rigid gender binary aren’t allowed to exist in the first place.)
We know that Joyce is not allowed to feel sexual, either, which is definitely another one of Joyce’s basic building blocks. It’s a problem.
John was out of line. If he didn’t want to get yelled at in public then he shouldn’t have blamed Becky for her current situation.
No, J-800, remember what John told you, no killing.
Her eyes…
Her association with the unclean has left her open to demonic possession.
Drive the evil spirit out!
Burn her at the stake!
Just to be clear, I am joking.
This is also a really nice reminder of way back when, they were having sushi, and Becky tried to get Joyce to admit to being angry, and Joyce wouldn’t. Looks like she figured it out.
That was before Joyce had a fucking gun pointed in her face. Looking death in the face like that will utterly rock your world-view.
True. I forgot the order.
Happy? birthday, Mr Presid…er…Willis.
…Meanwhile, the other Round the Clock patrons are sitting back and saying “oh look, entertainment while we eat.”
A server comes up hesitantly with a plate of chicken fingers – “Should I come back later? I’ll come back later…”
Yesssssss. I’m happy that she got that anger out. Wouldn’t have done any good to keep it bottled up. And sometimes we just all have to yell at someone. Unfortunate that it’s happening in public, but what can do you. Anger doesn’t conform to timetables, it happens when it happens
….Okay Joyce? Tear his fucking head off.
Now I’m worried about megatonnage and fallout, because Joyce is about to go nuclear.
That’s a killer case of red eye. I’ve heard there are some programs to clear that off pictures.
I think I heard her yell through the fourth wall.
Hell, I think I *felt* it.
Breaking News: Local girl is acting angry because of anger. Story at 11.
In other news, local man tries avoid family dispute by perusing area restaurant’s menu to no avail.
*local woman
It would be assumed. Heck, sister Joyce doesn’t know.
I really hope Joyce gets to rant before she is cut off, and that if her anger is (or at least currently feels) all Becky-related, she gets to name some of the stats she learned in Gender Studies to point out that her family’s attitude actually does damage (not that they’d necessarily care, although Joyce is generally adept at also referencing the bible).
Facts from her Gender Studies class would pretty much cement her mother’s resolve to get her pulled out of a real college. That’s not “fact” to them, it’s liberal lies, schemes of satan to corrupt the innocent, or whatever flavor they’re calling it these days.
Fundies are astoundingly resistant to and occasionally frightened of these facts that normal people take for granted.
I see what you mean, and relatedly am curious about them letting her take gender studies at a secular school. On the other hand, I want to see her yell about how many Beckys are homeless because churches don’t take them even though (various biblical quotes and themes) and how dare he condescend her.
I hope she gets to express herself too. She needs to. Getting cut off by her brother would be terrible but what I’m REALLY hoping for is that she doesn’t cut herself off with a shocked “……………I…am angry…” and go back into Conceal Don’t Feel Mode. Let it out, Joyce.
Oh ffs only the “am” is supposed to be bold, of course.
Joooooooooooooooooooyce yesssss
*SIRENS* WARNING, RAGE LEVELS OFF THE CHARTS! We have a Type 2 Angry Person here, folks. Stand back, and you may manage to avoid being splattered by blood and gore.
These strips with Joyce’s family make my heart hurt. It hurts for Joyce and Becky and Jocelyne and all the non-fictional people I’ve know with families like this.
I know it’s not the focus of these recent strips, but I love how Jocelyn seems to have an intuitive idea of exactly where Joyce is emotionally.
Perhaps she’s able to pick up on the, erm, subtle hints in Joyce’s voice.
Or maybe she’s been corresponding with Ethan?
Either way, her awesome bar has been slowly climbing these past few days.
Or maybe, unlike her brother, Jocelyne is able to pick up basic context (“Oh, hey, you and your best friend recently survived a shooting and attempted kidnapping!”) and not be an asshole.
I suspect Jocelyne understands a lot about anger. She has a lot of reasons to be angry at the world, herself, and I don’t doubt she’s had her share of traumatic incidents just for being who she is.
GET REKT JOHN
It’s like I’ve said before: John is used to sweet, perpetually-cheerful and upbeat Joyce. He really doesn’t have a frame of reference for interacting with a Joyce who feels hurt, misled and betrayed.
Welp, I’m buying this when it hits the shelves as a book. Yessir, joyce=new favorite character.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY RAWR
Um Joyce, you may want to calm down, you appear to have popped some blood vessels in your brain from sheer fury and the blood has leaked into your eyeballs turning them red, you may want to see a doctor about that :p
Doesn’t the blood leak into the white areas?
Ooohh! Red eyes! She’s either really pissed or she’s possessed by a demon
But she’s not wearing the hat!
You mean Hat Man? In Joyce’s case shouldn’t we call her Hat Woman?
Staaaart spreeeeadding the newwsss (pub singer stylee)
i needed to revel in Joyce’s righteous anger tonight. thank you and happy birthday!
The nine tails is taking over
Are you 37yo today or when you drew this comic?
Today
Dude. Don’t you know anger when you hear it?
OK people we’re at Defcon 5. Weather over target looks good. Table-flipping to commence in 5 … 4 … 3 ….
Would you like to play a nice game of chess, Professor Falken?
*whew!*
You are aware that Defcon 5 is the low end right? I honestly can’t tell from your comment.
Yay, angry Joyce for my 28th birthday. Also oof, this hit a bit more personal than I was expecting. Particularly today.
i am giving this comic a standing ovation. Joyce’s anger is so friggin valid. really bad, and violent, things happened to her. those things were done by someone she trusted as an authority figure. even more things happened to wreck her world view. not that she should stay angry forever, but right now? YES. FEEL YOUR EMOTION, JOYCE.
Whatever she sounds like is what angry sounds like.
Congratulations!
On reaching level 37 :D. Now go for 100!
Hope you the best for you and your family.
SO PROUD of Joyce right now! Own that anger, Joyce. It’s a valid feeling.
Also happy birthday!
May the Force be with you, David, as it is with Joyce. Here’s to many more.
Signed up with Gravatar just to get to say Happy Birthday! Love your comic, been reading for years
Somehow, I re-imagined Joyce’s last-panel in a beast-like voice a-la Zuul.
Yeeeeessssss. Feeeel the hate!
I don’t go on about my life here. But there are some horrible things here. Should that mean that you no longer have the right to be angry about things in your life?
Literally everyone else in this comments section understands why Joyce is angry. The fact that you cannot is just ignorance on your part. And given that Willis has been leading you by the hand to learn it, and you do not seem as socially clueless as I thought you were, it’s clear this is willful ignorance on your part.
And I can’t believe you would actually do the very thing that everyone has been calling John an asshole for. And I know you’ve been reading the comments–I saw your copy and pasted replies. (Enough to get you banned on pretty much every other board I know, BTW.)
I’ve got more to say, but it really fits better under your other comment.
Nevermind. This was a reply to a comment that has since been removed. I hope and expect it to be deleted, too.
I love this. It’s exactly how I felt after 5 years being celibate because I was gay and I was ok with that. Then one of my good friends committed suicide and everyone said that was better for him because he was gay and could never be a Christian. And I realized and I lost it. Hooray best ever! No one had to die for this
WTF? That doesn’t even make sense in twisted fundie logic. If he can never be a Christian, that means he went to hell. How in the world is that better for him? And if not being a Christian doesn’t mean he went to hell, then why in the world would being gay be bad for him?
The only reason I might not be quite as angry as I should be is that it’s so stupid I’m not sure I’d understand.
That’s probably why he finally lost it.
Which is pretty on par to how fucked some of the old school Christian mentality is.
No, see, it makes perfect sense. If you’re gay, you can’t be a REAL CHRISTIAN!!!, and therefore you might as well kill yourself because you’re going to hell anyway and what is life worth if you can’t partake in the GLORY OF THE LORD, FUNDIE JESUS?!!!?!
Dang, sorry for your loss.
Something just occurred to me.
Is John so taken aback by Joyce’s anger (or angry tone/eyes, as it were) because Joyce is a woman or is it because this is entirely unlike the sunshine and rainbows (Eeeh, maybe not the rainbows) Joyce that he knows.
Because I have trouble believing that a grown-ass man has never witnessed an angry woman before, even if he is a fundamentalist from Indiana.
his privilege is showing
I think the ‘taken aback’ part is because it’s so out of character for Joyce. But trying to talk her down by invalidating her feelings and acting like her anger is unseemly or uncalled for is the sanctimonious fundamentalist part.
He’s certainly seen angry women, but they were Bad, Not Godly, Women. It’s to be expected from them.
He’s taken aback by Joyce’s anger because it appears to be directed at him and SURELY HE HAS SAID NOTHING WRONG
That’s possible, as well. I suspect it’s probably a mix of all three, at this point.
Yeah, true
Yes, Joyce, let your anger flow through you. Embrace the Dark Side!
Gravatar Joe seems to agree with me as well.
WE ARE ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL.
John used Condescend!
It’s not very effective…
(btw happy birthday Willis)
Joyce used Outburst.
John’s Special Attack fell!
Becky flinched!
Jocelyne used Torment.
But it failed!
Happy birthday willis
Oh no! Red Eye Joyce! DOOM IS UPON US!
Aside: Happy birthday Willis
I know there is slutshaming, but is there such a thing as “angershaming”? Because John just did it, and he’s a douchecanoe for having tried it.
Basically he’s shaming her for having legitimate emotions. He’s acting like one of those assholes who tell women “you’d be prettier if you smiled” which is even worse coming from your own brother.
I’ve never understood how someone could think that would make another human being smile. That’s like saying, “your anger at your classmate for calling you a penis person every day this semester is invalid because you only have this semester to deal with them before you graduate.” And expecting the person to not be angry.
It’s called “tone policing”
As far as I’m concerned had John not done it, someone else should have. They are in a public place and while in that venue should act accordingly. By your logic is telling someone to hang up their phone in a movie… phoneshaming? Phoneshamers. How DARE they tell someone when they can take or make a call.
Joyce might be angry but that does not grant her a pass on her actions.
Happy Birthday, Willis!
Strike him down.
Give in to your anger >:D
Good! Let the hate flow through you!
Happy birthday Mr. Willis, and thank you so much. Seeing Joyce confronting that fucking “just listen to yourself” is very cathartic
Wrath is a sin.
ANGER IS NOT.
The weird thing is that wrath is the one deadly sin that God is known to be susceptible to ie Wrath of God.
It’s only a sin when humans do it, obviously.
/s
Righteous Wrath — like against thieving money changers.
Ironically, given that the door is about to close, that’s some old testament god level of anger.
And happy birthday Willis. May your pen never dry up and your resolve never weaken.
yeah, hes being a douche probably unintentionally. he does need to learn to not be a douche and when hes being a douche though. i understand joyces anger because my family, especially my older brother, enjoys provoking me all the time. not to mention my old friends who bullied me each day. i understand her and her anger here. but i can also not judge on if john is a sexist, a christian, a homophobe or a transphobe or anything of the like because those arent the things theyre talking about right now. hes clearly being a douche right now and having a bit of the “im above you” attitude but i wont say hes a sexist homophobe yet even though its most likely that thats willis plan. its just in my nature to not judge people all that quickly
I’d say he’s got more of a general Just World Fallacy going on than any specific bigotry. People like him are a reliable support group for actual active bigots tho.
he could still be secretly gay though but its not like willis to portray gay characters as bad. im gay and some of you probably think im bad so there you have your reference if you cant imagine a bad gay person
What are you talking about? Plenty of Willis’s LGBTQ characters have done bad things. I mean, people here can go all day arguing whether Ruth is a bad person or not.
(As whether John is gay or not, I would guess no at this point, simply for because of the lack of empathy for Becky’s situation. Regardless of his sexuality though, he’s certainly bought into the worldview that it’s “unbecoming” of a woman to ever show any sort of anger outwardly. That’s essentially what he’s saying with that “So bitter” line. And really that worldview is sexist.)
I believe what they mean is portray a gay character in an unsympathetic light. I don’t think he’s portrayed any of his LGBTQA characters as wholly in a good light all the time. Well except maybe Dina but… She’s fucking Dina.
Eh, give her time. Dina has previously shown to be really antagonistic towards Joyce when it comes to religion, and in the Walkyverse she described the afterlife as baseless superstition while she was already dead.
Soon she’ll have a little dinosaur fedora.
I never read the comics before Shortpacked so I didn’t know about that. And wasn’t Joyce kind of being really antagonistic then too?
At Galasso’s she took Joyce saying “maybe God made everything” as a personal attack and launched into a tirade over it.
When Joyce got a flu shot she picked a fight over how Joyce shouldn’t be getting them because she doesn’t believe in evolution.
Then at the party she basically manhandled Becky and screamed at Joyce like she was a leper, telling her to go away because “she can still save this one.”
Well, facts and science are ALMOST as important to Dina as cereal is, so it’s kind of understandable. Or maybe Willis was Bstrawmanning” autistism-spectrum scientists? He does that sort of thing really often.
I’m pretty sure Willis said he was basing Dina on himself as much as he was Joyce, so probably no, strawmanning is not what’s taking place there.
I don’t think that’s what strawmanning is.
To be fair, that last one was pretty funny. Sometimes it’s not clear how seriously we should take the jokes.
Dina got offended at the invalidation of evolution, not the concept of God. FFS. Nearly everyone in the cast is a Christian. Becky still strongly believes in God, and this wasn’t a problem (What /was/ a problem was spouting creationist canards).
Yes she was. IIRC, Joyce flat out said evolution was ridiculous.
I don’t think Dina was antagonistic towards Joyce because of her religious beliefs so much as because of her anti-science beliefs. Maybe that’s a distinction without a difference.
Also, can you please direct me to the flu shot strip you are referring to? Dina doesn’t strike me as an anti-vaxxer.
IIRC it was more an argument that according to Joyce’s beliefs, since the virus didn’t evolve, there was no need to get a new one every year year. This year’s strain should be the same as last.
Not at all an anti-vaxxer claim, just pointing out a logical conclusion of Joyce’s belief.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/03-answers-in-hennessy/flushots/
There’s really no reason for her to say that other than just being antagonizing, especially with the way she later treated Joyce at her party.
I feel like it’s something that could cause conflict with Becky later.
I disagree. Given Dina’s atypical mindset, I read that as her being frank and honestly curious as to why Joyce would be there getting a flu shot.
If that were it, sure, but given how Dina snapped at her earlier at Galasso’s and then later flipped her shit on her at the party for daring to approach her in the midst of her “saving” Becky, coupled with how she thought about the afterlife in the climax of It’s Walky!, I feel like there’s more to it.
It’s Walky! is a seperate thing, though. It was written in a different phase of Willis’ life, -his- beliefs have changed and evolved since then, and these characters are literally different people. Sometimes dramatically so. The party scene was for the sake of a punchline, so I’m not sure you can take that seriously. And if Galasso’s is your idea of somebody “snapping”, you need to scroll up and look at -this- strip.
Eh, I’m fine with it. I’m cool with Dina being a jerk about at least one thing, and that’s how it comes off to me.
Just read the flu-shot strip. She didn’t say that Joyce shouldn’t be getting a flu shot. She asked why Joyce had chosen to get a flu shot if she didn’t believe in evolution. I agree with Heavensrun. I think Dina was legitimately surprised by Joyce’s presence. Besides, given Dina’s difficulty understanding social cues, I’m not sure it would even have occurred to her that such a question would be seen as hostile or that she would be able to understand Joyce’s reaction if it were.
If Dina is ‘antagonizing’ in that strip, Joyce antagonizes right back.
Well Walkyverse’ Dina … Mike … Alcohol
Don’t want to think about that!
Ruth was downright -reprehensible- when we first met her. We got to see her depth and sympathetic nature later, but at the start, she was an unrepentant bully who was pushing Billie around, stealing and vandalizing her property, and physically assaulting her. It wasn’t until later that we got to see her caring, vulnerable side.
Joyce’s dad, while not Queer, went through a similar arc. He was pretty awful at the start of his first full appearance during parents weekend, to the point that most people were floored when he showed up, supported Joyce, and accepted Becky almost immediately.
Willis rarely starts off by showing us every character at their best.
And people wonder why I hate Ruth.
She’s defintely super screwed up. Being queer doesn’t make that go away. I don’t usually waste my hate on people who are trying to be better, though, (although they have to actually -be- better before they get my respect,) and I can’t help but feel sympathy for her struggles with depression.
My ability to sympathize with people usually reaches as far as them descending into becoming abusers themselves.
I’ve known Ruths my whole life. I’m more concerned with the people they hurt than I am with them.
(forgot to add this part and I feel it’s important)
As far as I understand, I also struggle with depression and, to an extent, suicidal ideation. There’s lots of times where Ruth talking about how she can barely comprehend being happy are points where I feel like my thoughts are being directly transported onto the page. Having said that, if I did the horrible shit Ruth has repeatedly and maliciously done over the course of the comic, regardless of the origin of those actions, I would deserve to be in jail. I resent this notion that Ruth’s mental health issues excuse her from being a violent abuser, or even remotely justify it.
Lots of people struggle with depression, addiction, and suicidal ideation every day of their lives. Most don’t end up being violent shitheads.
They don’t excuse it or justify it, they -explain- it. Also, jail? Really? She got physically agressive with somebody else who started it, she stole a relatiely inexpensive momento and cut it up a bit, and she kissed somebody on impulse once and immediately backed off. That’s all good reason to cut somebody out of your life, and it’s good reason for her to be fired from her job, but jail???
Yes, jail. If I systematically harassed and assaulted someone and then capped it off by slamming them into a wall and jamming my tongue down their throats I’d fucking belong there.
Deeply repressed gay would be interesting. Married and miserable because of it. Not anywhere near admitting it especially to himself.
I think that would be interesting because it is a thing that happens, buuut I’m not really sure if I want John’s personal redemption arc to stem from him being Queer, and that now he’s a Good Person we can’t hate for his actions because of it.
It’s why I reject similar theories about Mary.
That trope really needs to die.
What, have you never seen an angry woman before, John? Or do you just exile them to India?
Okay, seriously think I’m gonna catch flak for this (again) but I honestly don’t see John being an asshole right now or trying to invalidate Joyce’s anger. Sure it’s not exactly his best moment, but seriously. I see a concerned older brother trying to come to terms with the transformation his baby sister has just gone through. His once sweet innocent sister is now bitter angry, and, if we’re being quite honest, hateful. All of these are terrible emotions for anybody to have on such constant display as Joyce is right now, though I understand where they are coming from. While i don’t really like it I realize this joyce-splosion needs to happen if she’s going to begin any sort of recovery. Bottling in emotions is never good, especially the bitter/angry/hate trifecta
The way John’s being an asshole is in his utter failure of empathy. His concern isn’t for Joyce’s (and Becky’s!) situation, but for her behaviour – she’s breaking the mould of the ‘good Christian woman’ by being angry and bitter (that’s a dog-whistle code word in evangelical circles, by the way, at least when applied to women). If his concern were actually for Joyce’s wellbeing (of course, in his head, he probably conflates that with her outward behaviour), he’d recognise her anger as valid and probably share it. Instead, all he’s done in the conversation so far is to dismiss and belittle the problems they’re facing – he seems to be unable to think outside his comfortable little bubble and understand why things that don’t seem like a big deal to him are, in fact, a Huge Friggin’ Deal to Joyce and Becky. His assholery isn’t in directly causing harm, but in contributing to it through insensitivity and dismissal.
If he wants to help Joyce, that’s great! I’m sure he doesn’t think he’s being an asshole. But the way to help is by empathising with her and helping her to work through her emotions, not by telling her she shouldn’t be angry. (And note that his only interaction so far with Becky – the actual victim – has been to tell her off for the SSN thing.)
This is the guy who tells abuse survivors and activists of all stripes that they need to ‘calm down’, ‘be reasonable’, not to be ‘confrontational’. For a better rebuttal to that than I could ever write, refer to MLK’s Letter from a Birmingham Jail.
Wall of text, but I hope it helps you see where the problem is.
That’s a beautiful explanation. It also helps me with another parallel: John is an “All Live Matter” FB poster. He’ll read a story about a black teen getting killed by police, and comment some form of, ” well, if they’d have just done what the officers told them to, they’d be alive! Don’t break the law, don’t get shot.”
He’s living in Pleasantville.
Naw I get that he utterly failing on his empathy roll right now but i just don’t see john as the complete asshole everyone else does. I also feel like it’s necessary to focus so much on woman part of Joyce’s “good Christian woman” persona. Not because I’m trying to be sexist but more so cause I think bitter anger is an emotion John would speak against no matter the gender, because holding on to those emotions like Joyce is now can destroy people. I mean I totally get where she’s coming from and its completely justified, I also used to be a bitter angry mess. Plus from the way the conversation has gone so far I almost get the feeling that he and others, don’t know the entirety of the story. It’s not a great moment for John, but it had to happen for Joyce to realize just how bitter she’s become.
P.S.
This only like my third time commenting and it totally makes me happy that I can voice a different opinion from the masses and not get slammed with abuse and name calling. You guys are great lol.
Joyce’s problem with anger right now is that it’s both unhealthy for her and completely justified.
John on the other hand is at best dismissing the justification for her anger. More likely it really is a gendered thing, since dismissing and attacking women for anger is a common thing, even more so in fundamentalist circles with strong gender roles. Like the Brown’s.
It’s not made explicit here that he’s thinking that way, so if you’re not familiar with it, it’s easy to overlook.
Yeah I guess I’m not so familiar with it. I mean I grew up in similar conditions to Joyce, religious fairly sheltered family, non-denominational church. Wasn’t homeschooled though so I guess we weren’t super fundamentalist. I don’t know I’m just hoping this is just a bad moment for John trying to understand the radical transformation his sister has gone through. Having been in Joyce’s shoes being bitter and angry, for several years I might add, I can only imagine what it’s like for those on the outside who see this person they used know become something entirely different.
The thing that bothers me about this is, if it was genuinely a matter of seeing his formerly sweetness and light sister blow up like a nuke, shouldn’t he be reacting differently? Concern, contrition, trying to get to the bottom of why she’s acting so strangely or even make peace? Instead we get this annoyed condescension.
As I said: A careless, insensitive idiot who isn’t even able to realize that HAVING A GUN AIMED AT YOUR FACE could be emotinally scarring.
I don’t know what kind of missionary work this guy does, but I hope he isn’t allowed anywhere near real human beings with real problems… “Geez! So your parents are dead, and your are a homeless, starving leper who sleeps in a cardboard box and you eat what you find in trashcans? So what? Why are you so angry, again?”
JOYCE used RAGE!
Joyce is confused! Joyce hit itself!
I like angry Joyce. I know how she feels. And it’s partly satisfying to see someone else get angry.
“Bitter”. Yup, there it is.
John. you bloody idiot. It is YOUR sister and she needs support.. not this “holier than thou” behavior. i Wonder if he did do it to his siblings.. using emotional abuse so he can feel better? I am not so sure John is a truly nice guy. Remember assholes can hide behind a nice guy mask too.
I think there might be more to it than that. I mean, think about it like this. Not only is he the oldest Brown, he’s also probably the one with the most religious upbringing. I mean, given that he’s already stated he does mission trips, this is hardly surprising.
However, I don’t think John is intending to be the bad guy here. I’m thinking that he not only got a RUSHED version of the story, but also an EXTREMELY biased version. I get the feeling that he’ll actually be pretty pissed when he learns what really happened.
I’m sure he’s not intending to be the bad guy here. No one intends to be the bad guy. Even Ross didn’t intend to be the bad guy, he was trying to save his daughter.
He’s trying to help, first by making sure the lesbian knows not to steal SSNs, then by using his manly wisdom to show how simple the problem is, then by trying to keep his little sister from giving in to the sin of anger (especially of anger against an older male relative).
See, very helpful and not at all the bad guy.
And in that kind of a fundie christian world view, that’s all true. It’s just that that kind of world view is horribly toxic.
Beyond that, what kind of biased version could he have gotten that wouldn’t even get him to check the news for more about what happened to his little sister? How trivialized must it have been to not even want to look?
He got the “official” story from their mother. Any media sources are going to have a godless liberal bias, just telling lies about Toedad, the Noble and Just.
I’m sure their church has already got a formal story in place so they can scream “media bias” and “religious persecution” if anyone tries to question how someone from their church could have been driven to commit the crimes of assault/battery, attempted murder, kidnapping, etc. etc. etc.
Yeah well, if he’s far enough gone that his world view is that screwed up, then fuck him. It’s no longer an excuse for his approach to Joyce, but a problem in itself.
Well, sure. That’s a big part of why Joyce is so angry. She’s had her nose rubbed in it, hard. She’s seeing for the first time in her life how badly warped her upbringing has been. As she said in one of the panels back before she left for the weekend, it would mean that everything she’s ever been told is a lie. Just because she sees this and is trying to come to terms with it doesn’t mean that members of her family or their church are going to suddenly see the error of their ways.
(Didn’t you post “Are we the baddies?” for Nazi Joke Day? (Its hilarious!)
I’d just like to point out that anger is technically not a sin. However it is an emotion that everyone should avoid from holding on to the way Joyce is. On another note whose to say that every detail of the incident was reported 100% accuracy. I mean I’ve seen plenty of “news articles” that are only 10-15 sentences long, or shorter, some of them major news events. I don’t think it’s fair to hate on John for a bad first impression. To be even more honest I think John’s actions are actually the best actions. Because honestly sometimes bitter and angry people just do not respond to others compassion and empathy. Sometimes someone needs to be the asshole for the moment and point out the seemingly obvious so that the person themself can come to terms with it themselves.
Joyce isn’t “holding on to anger”. Joyce is getting pissed off and terrified again and again, without a chance to recover. The happy fun gun times incident was less than a week ago. Yesterday, her mother spent the evening harassing Becky. Last night she overheard her parents talking about pulling her out of school.
Like Ross did to Becky. Let that sink in for a moment.
If you want to help Joyce, don’t try to force her to get over her anger yet. Help her get into a safe situation where she can start to deal with it. Keep threatening her and Becky and keep echoing Toedad and there’s no way that’ll happen.
You’re misdiagnosing. Joyce isn’t “bitter and angry”. Joyce is traumatized. Her world is falling apart. The things she thought she could trust are betraying her. If Carol had supported her. If John wasn’t being an asshole. Then she could heal.
Those are just the final nails in the coffin. These emotions have been brewing inside of Joyce since the beginning of the semester. Her world has been slowly falling apart already and these are the. I’m not trying to approve of John’s actions but I understand and agree that Joyce’s anger is justified. Yes John is being an ass right now, intentionally or not. However I do still believe that sometimes being an ass is the best way to help people. I get the feeling Joyce would have responded to empathy be being reclusive. See I don’t think Joyce has even let herself believe that she’s angry, and that by John her mother’s asshole-ish-ness, she’s snapping and letting it all out.
All I’m really trying to say is, yes John is being an ass now, however I don’t think and would like to believe that his entire character is completely an asshole.
Oh I don’t think his entire character is completely an asshole. I don’t think that of anyone. I’m sure even Ross had his good points, well hidden though they were.
It may be his entire role in this storyline, though that’s a different question.
I don’t think he’s helping here though. I don’t think Joyce needs more abuse and antagonizing. I think she needs support and reassurance, particularly from authority figures. Her interaction with Hank was a blessing for her, though quickly undermined by Carol and the fact that Hank didn’t really come to her (& Becky’s) defense.
She’s terrified that her family is really like Becky’s dad and nothing that reinforces that is going to help her.
Maybe. Maybe she needed a bit of both, I’m hoping that once he realizes how hurt she is and the entirety of why that he’ll be more supportive like Hank was and I’m hoping that Hank will also show his supportive side more too. I’m just hoping this family visit at least turns out to be the start of some sort of healing for Joyce.
I hope you’re right. In both cases. I just don’t expect it.
If there’s healing after this, it’ll come from having a better where she stands and who she can count on. Learning to stand on your own is part of healing, right? Cause it isn’t going to be her family. Except for Jocelyne, of course. She’s awesome and will help where she can, but she’s got her own troubles.
Basically, from the first we knew of this family visit, I’ve just been hoping she makes it through without too much damage or a major rift.
At this point, I’d be down to hoping Carol doesn’t make good on her plan to pull Joyce out of college, except that I know for meta reasons that Joyce will be back at school where the rest of the story is happening.
At least some form of healing is starting with her admiring to her anger. I believe at least Hank will be a pillar for Joyce when it comes down to it, Jocelyne too.
This is the a major fork in the road of Joyce’s life and I’m at least glad to see she’s at least starting down the right path with admission, rather than bottle it up a little more and spiral into a devastating depression
Or maybe I’m just overly optimistic, despite knowing how evil the world, and people of all walks of life can be lol
it still doesn’t excuse his behavior to his sister WHO clearly is suffering from the experience with toenail dad. he KNOWS Ross did bring a gun to a PUBLIC place. he can’t have ignored that fact Ross could have killed people to take Becky away. So John can’t be that stupid can he? it feels like he is doing this on purpose to feel better about himself. i just don’t know..
I understand Joyce’s fury. she feels betrayed perhaps?
Oh, and also, Happy Birthday Willis!
*Grabs popcorn*
https://soundcloud.com/xcom-1/berserker-scream
oh shit the red eyes are back~
A hand comes in scene to Gibbs-slap John. An attractive dark-skinned woman in black leather shows up.
Christi: Seriously, I can’t let you go anywhere. Every time I do you devolve and start shit. What do you have to say for yourself?
John: Sorry mistress. Shall I kneel on the floor to repent?
Christy: Not right now. We will wait until we get home. Hello you must be Joyce.
Joyce and Becky:…
Jocelyn : Oh hey, Christy, nice that you could make it.
I have minor issues with this, but I can’t quite articulate what…
Though now I can no longer hear John as anything other than a sniveling nasally douche.
How about we not use D/s as a punchline, yeah?
Better put than I.
No problem. I’m the “s” in a D/s relationship, so this kinda struck a cord with me. Nothing wrong with either men or women being submissive in a safe, sane, and consensual relationship. Ditto for dominants.
My boyfriend and I dabble occasionally, I tend to be the D when we do. I’m not quite attached to the subculture enough to have big warning flags about jokes, though.
YES! JOYCE! STRIKE HIM DOWN WITH ALL OF YOUR HATRED!
A perfect mix of “angry face” and “wtf is wrong with you John” face.
Also,
(DAMMIT HTML) http://i.imgur.com/UMnu1vy.gif
Wow.
Just…wow.
Why do I get the feeling John PROBABLY doesn’t know the full story?
I’m pretty sure he does, but he’s as bad as his mother- if not worse.
They change colour! Try annoying her even more, maybe she has a super mode.
My initial response was to was to hope that John’s comment was born out of concern for his sister. After all, the last time he saw her she was a relentlessly cheerful person. It’s probably pretty jarring to see someone he remembers cheerfully innocent so angry. I guess I’m hoping every other person in this comic isn’t a complete asshole. On reading the comments and rereading the strip, the “Just listen to yourself” kicks it over into tone policing and assholery on John’s part. Doesn’t help that I pretty much look like the Browns right down to the Sandy blonde hair and blue eyes.
Just remember, the Blue Eyes code to “decent person”. Either that or “daughter”, we still have to see Jordan to confirm it.
and especially your gravatar…
Joyce’s eyes have turned red. IIRC that means she’s under the central computer’s control right now and as such is not bound by the Three Laws.
Ha!
Call it a hunch, but something tells me there’s unresolved issues between these two.
They didn’t know each other very well before to have preexisting issues, but, hey, they’re sure getting to know each other now!
And they already have issues!
Yay, family. -_-
On one hand, it’s kinda clear that John is being set up as another antagonistic member of the family, and constantly saying “let’s just wait a bit to see more of his side of the argument” isn’t really cutting it anymore.
On the other hand, I can’t help but notice how vaguely everyone keeps on talking about the Gunman Incident. Almost as if a certain character doesn’t know the whole story, and the narrative needs to keep things vague so that people can argue.
If John was to be a sympathetic character, he should have asked: “why are you angry.”
That looks a whole lot more … sympathetic rather than being a fucking gold plated dickhead.
Yup.
Yeah, if John was meant to be misinterpreted or have half the story or something, he wouldn’t be such a victim blaming ass here.
I don’t understand why he’s pointing this out. She’s angry, yes. Ssssooo? Why is that this big of a deal to him?
Also, a little trackback question about John. He said his wedding was in India. I don’t know shit about religion so I’m just shotting in the dark, but wouldn’t that be kind of a problem for a fundie, considering India’s vastly different religious culture, with hinduism being most dominantly present and all? Like, wouldn’t a fundie want to get married in a primarily christian country?
I don’t think it matters whether the country is primarily christian or not. My assumption is that he married a Christian Indian woman (possibly Indian American) and that the wedding was there because it was easier for him and his family to travel than for her and hers.
Alright. It’s just that the first time John said he got married in India I assumed this meant that he was more forward thinking and didn’t have the sheltered fundie brain syndrome like Joyce’s mom or toedad, and that’s why it was no problem for him to have his wedding in a primarily hinduist country. But I guess I gave him too much credit there.
He’s pointing this out because he’s desperately trying to protect his worldview from the possibility that he is, in fact, wrong and being a giant douchenozzle and that’s why Joyce is angry.
Like, there are two possibilities: either he’s fucked up big time, or Joyce is being womanly unreasonably and will surely come back to her senses if he manages to make her self aware.
Of course he’d be holding on to the one that makes him out to be a victim.
You know this thing where women can’t express discontent or anger or be confrontational because that’s seen as authoritative and a threat to men’s legetimate aurthority as handed down by God itself?
No.
Is that a fundi thing?
I wondered about where John’s question was coming from.
A normal reaction to seeing someone is angry would’ve been to show some empathy.
Yeah I haven’t heard of this either. I know some people say women aren’t supposed to swear cuz that’s not womenly enough, but I haven’t heard that about showing anger or other negative emotions.
I’M SO HAPPY JOCELYNE DIRECTED THAT ONE COMMENT AT JOHN
Yeah and I really wonder how she deals with it internally regarding her own situation :/
I REALLY hope that her main emotional reaction to this is to be proud of Joyce and happy she has at least one overwhelmingly-likely-to-be-supportive family member.
I mean, I’m pretty sure she already knows what John is like. It’s Joyce who’s the new addition to the recipe here.
Yeah, you’re right about Joyce being potentially supportive, that must be a relief. She might be lucid enough to have known exactly how John was like too. But sometimes it still stings pretty hard to face the insensibility of someone who’s supposed to be close.
Jocelyne had to go through it alone, at least regarding her family, while still avoiding to stir it up too much. It must’ve been really hard (and still be). Maybe she has mixed feelings about the fact that the statu quo won’t be possible any more? Perhaps coming out is a step closer now?
I hope she’s proud of her little sister. And Joyce always wanted a sister so I really look forward an eventual bonding of those two.
Same on all points <3
also, i just wanna see “OMYGOSH I HAVE A BIG SISTER” joyce reaction. sooooo much
Brace yourself. It’s likely to be awhile before we get there and the initial reaction is likely to be a lot more painful.
Joyce’ll make it, but her track record on first exposure to new things isn’t great.
Depends on when it happens. After Becky, it’s likely that any reaction she has will be full of A) loving support, and B) Overwhelming guilt for a million little careless comments over the years.
If it happens -now-, it would also blow up Joyce’s world -even more- to have the one family member that is actually supportive turn out to have been keeping such a big secret from her. Joyce’s reaction would be complicated.
Joyce is not good at first reactions, but always comes around. (I’m especially thinking of her reaction to Ethan – poke poke, ‘but you seem normal’.) Luckily, Jocelyn knows pre-college Joyce pretty well, and will probably expect and be patient with Joyce’s initial foot-in-mouth ignorance. I can hardly wait.
That said, Jocelyn also knows that Joyce is terrible at keeping secrets, especially from her parents, so that Jocelyn be unwise to confide in Joyce or Becky if she wants to keep her closet remotely intact. So, I think it’s somewhat more likely that Jocelyn gets outed or finally says what she can’t take back, vs. she gets to stay in control of whom she tells and when.
Also, at the moment, I don’t think that Jocelyn is proud of Joyce. She might be a little jealous later that Joyce gets to say stuff because Joyce isn’t closeted. But mostly Jocelyn is probably anxious at the moment, because she really does not like conflict, and here’s a big pile of conflict.
That’s Anger. He cares very deeply about things being fair. (And on Joyce, he’s getting a lot more turns at the controls lately.)
I love that movie and I love this comment.
Clearly someone popped the cork and let the Anger Wine spill all over the place.
I read that as the Amber Wine and it still fits remarkably well.
Joyce Sharingan confirmed?
Why do so many people need to excuse awful behavior? Just because he isn’t actually waving a gun around doesn’t mean John isn’t being a huge jerk. Don’t tell me his jerk behavior is subtle either, because it’s
We’re not even dealing with a real life situation here. I am ripping this off from an earlier comment about Sal’s mom being racist, but do we really think the moral of this story is going to be that Joyce’s anger is out of line and Becky actually should have thought about her SSN before getting outed?
People want to believe everything is fine until it starts bubbling over and you’re staring it in the face, whereupon you ask “why weren’t you ever honest with me?”
But..but…what if it turns out John recently had to pull a gun on a lesbian woman himself, only he really didn’t want to, but he had to because she was going to blow up a train full of people as part of some feminist agenda? And then bystanders punched him because they didn’t understand and wouldn’t let him explain because they were anti-Christian bigots? And now he’s trying to be sensible and support his sister, but the whole thing was so traumatic and he just can’t move past it?
What then? Would that be enough for you to excuse him for completely dismissing his own sister after she was held at gunpoint, or do we need make up some even more remote possibilities?
Well, he’s bound to have an excellent reason for being a patronizing, self-absorbed shiz, right?
I think it’s because we want to live in a world where people aren’t tremendous douchebags. We don’t want our friends to have to deal with jerks, either. Because, it sucks to deal with jerks, and it’s upsetting to have met one and been impacted by their bad behaviour! So we’d really, really rather that the jerks are not jerks after all.
Unfortunately, there *are* jerks in the world, and all our mental gymnastics don’t make the jerks stop being jerks, it just gives them more room to behave with impunity.
This is a useful concept that helped me do this way less:
http://www.shakesville.com/2013/08/occams-big-paisley-tie.html
Cue someone chastising Joyce for “making a scene”… apparently in the comments…
Like, yeah, it’s an uncomfortable conversation but it needed to happen. Frankly, with Carol’s talk about pulling Joyce out of school, it’s probably best it happened around witnesses. Plus a repressed, 18 year old letting her anger show to her family for probably the first time (possible exception of defending Dorothy during Family Weekend, but even then it wasn’t to this level) isn’t really going to consider the ramifications of getting pushed to the brink.
Also Toe Dad wouldn’t let Becky have a phone, you really think he took the time to explain SSNs to her? She was home schooled, he and the rest of the fundies were her only sources of education until college. No one went over SSNs when I went to public school in the last two decades. I got lucky to have parents who wanted to prepare me for the real world, not shield me from it. And if asking (probably as a joke) for something is the same as stealing then I am a master criminal.
Also, Happy Birthday, Willis! I enjoy your comic!
+
It’s bad when the irises turn red, right?
Bad? Or maybe destructively great.
Time to worry is when they turn to glowing white orbs without pupils. Kind of like Todd Ingram (but he was a douche).
This. The complete dismissal of strong emotions. That is what I will never miss of having been seen as a woman (although some things are harder now than when I was percieved female). Although now that I’m running on a testosterone system, I do understand why a lot of guys have trouble concieving how you can be intense like that. That being said, he’s still a complete douche.
Go, Joyce! Tell it to his face! <3
Let me tell you, going the other way has not been a picnic as far as privilege goes- I’ve had conversations much like this one!
That said, I’d never go back. So much happier now, even with the societal bullshit that goes with being a woman.
Well, same thing here for privilege. I never would’ve anticipated the amount of privilege I have lost. Especially since so many people deny the fact that this is even possible. But I’d never go back either.
I gained from this mounds of compassion for men. Then again, you probably don’t come from the same place as me. I come from a nation that was almost annihilated many times and whose men have withdrawal tendencies (as opposed to acting out), because repression, and whose women are historically more educated and hence had a lot of control within the marriage. The biggest issue here with men is withdrawal and suicide, as opposed to acting out and agression. And the big problem with that, is that the feminists here try to equate our situation with the US and France, causing even more withdrawal and a lot of frustration.
A very simple microagression example : a man walks on the sidewalk, sees someone coming his way, goes on his side of the sidewalk. Men act the same, but women will often simply put themselves bluntly in the middle of it, bumping into men who don’t step into the street to let them pass (there are cars…), not even looking at us, and then acting like we’re at fault. I have friends who cross the street when they see a woman coming their way.
Whoa.
It’s one of the more interesting side benefits of transfolk becoming more open. We’re getting stories of people who’ve seen gender issues from both sides and we’re getting them in both directions and they’re all basically confirming what the feminists have been saying for decades. There’s no real parallels with racial privilege or anything else.
Yeah, it’s one thing in a discussion of privilege to talk about it and not unequal treatment and another to be able to say, no, for serious, bro, let me tell you about the viscerally different way I was treated when I lost that privilege personally.
Probably also a big reason why trans women tend to be very loud feminists. Not only do we viscerally understand what it is to lose the automatic regard society gives to those socially read as male, but we weren’t socialized as kids to shut up about it lest we be considered “angry”.
Which might explain some of the self-justification going on in some turf’s minds, unfortunately, because differences are assets.
But it kind of hurts me when I read stuff like “the automatic regard society gives to those socially read as male”… I just hope you understand that it’s not an universal law, in the sense that it’s not true to the same degree everywhere. Because in some societies the negative aspects outweigh the “positives” ones, be it the microagression burden or the fact that you are seen as expendable, or as a latent criminal. For example.
I don’t deny at all the female struggles, of course. But I hope we’ll hear more of men in the next years, so that everyone can broaden their perspective and work together.
It is very interesting to hear voices/stories that were … you know.
Woah, interesting, what culture?
(er, that was to de Combys, I mean, what culture/nation are you in?)
Honestly I’d prefer keeping that quiet. I’ve ben bullied pretty hard by some women for expressing those things, I wouldn’t risk that happening on here. Made me quit social media.
Okidoke.
The amount of creative excuses for John’s behaviour in the comments is truly staggering.
Re Becky asking to use Jocelyne’s SSN, I think youre r exactly right:
OTOH, Becky very likely knows NOTHING about SSN thru no fault of her own.
OTOH, viewed as a joke, that is very much a Becks-style joke
Ah man, really? In that case, I made the right choice to give the comment threads a skip for my own mental health.
You more than deserve an occasional day off!
If you want a creative excuse, how about this one?
When John said “mission” he wasn’t indicating that he was a missionary, he was indicating that he is an Agent of SHIELD. And he’s had encounters with Bruce Banner before, so that’s why he’s worried about her getting angry.
That excuse is creative enough to at least be funny!
Does….does John really think Joyce isn’t allowed to feel angry? Last time I checked she’s human and humans feel anger. They especially feel anger when their best friend’s dad goes after her and her girlfriend with a shotgun because he’s denying and try to supress a critical part of who she is. Joyce has had her world view shattered since the beginning of this comic, and John doesn’t think she has the right to be angry? Who does he think he is?
He’s the Eldest Favored Son in a fundamental christian family. How *DARE* the youngest sibling – worse, the youngest *FEMALE* sibling – attempt to correct him *in public* when he’s so clearly perfect and beyond reproach?
And yes, John really things Joyce isn’t allowed to be angry. She’s a woman. She’s supposed to be dainty and demure in all things and in all ways when in the presence of her betters.
Honestly, I don’t think he thinks she isn’t allowed to be angry. But he’s never -seen- her angry, in her entire life, which he has been present for. He can’t understand that she -is- angry, so it must be a breakdown in communication, because angry Joyce isn’t a thing.
Next few strips will spell out whether that’s right or not.
My experience with this kind of Christianity is that anger, itself, is considered a sin.
Yes, it’s abusive in it’s very heart. Yes, it stifles people from being able to express even the slightest injustice at anything someone in authority does. Yes, that’s why it persists. Yes, the people who do this think they’re actually doing the right thing.
No, you can’t count on them ever figuring it out.
Um…this should be above, it’s a reply to Kater
“Thanks Joyce! We can never go back to Round the Clock again! Now, we have to eat at Christos. Christos!”
This is what legitimately righteous anger looks like. (Verbally) Kick his ass, Joyce.
John knows nothing about what’s happened to Joyce since she left for IU, but instead of asking her about her life, instead of asking her about her anger, instead of keeping his yap shut and listening, he gives her a pile of patronizing poop. Heck, basically, he’s doing Nurse Ratchett. (Is this how he treats Christi?)
A suggestion: instead of telling Joyce/Becky/et al what they “should” do, try saying: “This is what I [think that I] would do if I were (Becky/Joyce/et al)”.
+1
Whoa. Joyce became Zuul.
I can hardly wait for John to ask if Joyce is having “women’s troubles?”
At this point I hardly think he can make it worse. He could just as well go for the full bingo.
I once was in Joyce’s situation: my parents obliviously pushed me to do something that was at complete odds to who I was, and didn’t hear me when I calmly told them how I felt and how important it was to me and then attacked me for being ungrateful for what they were doing “for” me, at which point I snapped and told them off as Joyce is doing here, first time, perhaps the only time I yelled at my parents (I was a ridiculously good eager to please kid who swallowed his rage till it choked him). AND IT WAS GOOD THAT I DID. They finally heard me and got it and apologized and we had a tearful reconciliation, because they were good and tried and learned, like Hank I think. I wonder if there is any chance that John will react as my parents did–I hope so. Either way, though, Joyce is SO real to me right now.
Ditto. I remember the moment when I finally snapped at my parents after all the shit they had put me through and it was similarly dismissed. Hopefully John won’t follow through with their follow-up, which was to sidestep the reasons for the anger entirely and then blame me for being “unreasonable”.
Sorry but that’s not gonna happen. I can see it on his face. I call Joyce and Becky storming out after John just keeps on being John, and he’s left alone with Jocelyn to think about why this is happening.
@Russ, that’s what I expect from John more than what I hope for. If that is what happens I will be very interested in what Jocelyne will say to him. The night I’d had enough from my father and just turned and walked (silently
) into the night, with no idea where I was going or what I would do except that I wasn’t going back so I’d figure it out … but I didn’t have to because he, my mom, and my sister soon pulled up next to me walking along a thoroughfare. I’ve always wondered what they said to him. He never pulled the same shiz on me again that he did that night. Do you think that alone with Jocelyne, she might be able to get John to pull his head out of where he has it and adjust himself?
Oh I don’t want that, I expect it. Also I’m sorry you had to go through that, that must’ve been hard for you. As for the comic, it really depends on John and his sister’s relationship, and what kind of person he is. Right now he doesn’t seem like he’s much better than Joyce’s mom, but maybe he has a bit of his father in him too. For now I really can’t say!
Which is fubar because in your contributions here you’re as reasonable a person as I can think of!
She should beat him up, too!
Jeez. The amount of people in the comments portraying John as sexist is really gross. He hasn’t said *anything* sexist or even anything close to it. Apparently people think he’s sexist because he’s commenting on how angry Joyce is. There is nothing sexist about that. Like, if their sexes were reversed, and an older sister was commenting on a normally-cheerful younger brother’s uncharacteristic anger, nobody would EVER call the older sister sexist. Because it isn’t.
John totally could turn out to be sexist, but at this time there isn’t anything to even imply that he is. If you are calling him sexist (based solely on his sex), *you* are the one who is sexist.
Don’t just assume a bunch of things about John because he’s a fundie, criticize him for the things he IS doing.
(Please do not read this as me defending John, I’m rooting for Joyce here. I just can’t stand it when even people who are apparently thinking about sexism still somehow manage to be sexist themselves.)
I’m a guy, and I didn’t read this as sexist, but I understand where the point comes from. Joyce grew up in a household that told her that she was going to college to find a man, you can see that in her dialogue in the early strips. Cross reference that upbringing with John’s personality leaning more towards accepting his parents’ teachings, and the idea that he’s surprised by her anger comes from Joyce normally being happy-go-lucky, but the dismissal, where he calls her bitter and cites her punching Ross as over-the-top, and sexism becomes a reasonable reason as to why he’s not taking her seriously. It’s not definite, but there isn’t NO evidence as to why people think this. People’s comments as to why they thought this opened my eyes to a different angle on the issue, so I’m grateful for that.
It’s already been discussed to death why John calling Joyce angry like she should be ashamed of that is sexist as all hell, so I am just going to direct you to google “false equivalence” and ollie outie.
my eyes read “because i am.” but my brain inserted a jurassic park t-rex roar
INCOMING!!!!
Surprise!
John is good at setting bombs off.
And so now we see the violence inherent in the system when a lifetime of indoctrination is continually revealed to be exactly that: Indoctrination.
Occasionally the rats just get tired of running the maze and eat each other instead of working their way to the end where the food is.
And here I thought red panels were scary. You go, Joyce.
And happy birthday, Willis!
Watched the movie “Inside Out” last night. Am now incapable of reading these strips without imagining the Committee of Emotions in every character.
Yes, yes let your rage flow through…. NOW STRIKE HIM DOWN!!! Let your journey to dark side be complete.
Fuckin’ DO IT, JOYCE, YEAH!
I am just all excitement to see this. And in defense of her BFF, no less? Sweet, sweet candy. And a lovely contrast to the Ruth/Billie conflict, no less.
Come at me
And you’ll see
I’m more than meets the eye
You think that
You’ll break me
You’re gonna find in time
You are standing too close to a flame that’s burning
Hotter than the sun in the middle of July
Sending out your army but you still can’t win
Listen up, silly boy, cause I’m gonna tell you why…
(I burn!)
Can’t hold me now
You got nothing that can stop me
(I burn!)
Swing all you want
Like a fever, I will take you down!
(I normally don’t post lyrics like this in comments, but that’s what got into my head the second Joyce’s eyes turned red. Props to whoever gets the reference. :D)
This arc is gonna end in a yang…
Somebody give her a hand!
GO OFF!!!!! >8D >8D >8D
John-boy, your next words must be chosen with great care or you may feel the force of Joyce’s anger the way Toedad did. Take heed.
I seriously doubt Joyce would punch her brother, or anybody for that matter, for any offense that ranks below pointing a gun at her and kidnapping her best friend.
General McPentagon *runs by,honks frantically in air horn*: “RUN FOR THE HIIIIIIIILLLLS”
This is not a drill. I repeat this is not a drill. We have full red text here, people!
Joyce is giving a reasonable response to unreasonable input.
What secret is John hiding that’s fueling this dickishness?
Maaaaaan, this is exactly the scenario Becky tried to avoid. Right now she’s thinking “I should have kept up the Hitler jokes so I could have spared Joyce this.”
And Jocelyne… poor, poor Jocelyne, how often have she not stopped herself from saying this, from letting the situation go too far, from letting her anger or hurt show. Well, Joyce is not hiding anything.
John have NO idea of what is going to hit him. It’s not only HIS bullshit Joyce reacts to – she put the lid on her reaction to Carol’s snide remarks yesterday – because she IS her mother – but an older brother is fair game.
Yeah, both Becky and Jocelyne have a lifetime’s experience deflecting and avoiding abuse on the one hand and suspicion on the other. They’ve got the tactics down and the emotional armor all built up. That’s all built up long-term trauma of course, but they’re still needed skills for this situation.
Joyce has none of it. She’s never needed it. No big secret to hide. No constant emotional abuse to deflect. She’s just seeing it now for the first time and it’s a betrayal she’s got no way to process. Except anger. Pure righteous wrath.
Without the power or autonomy to back it up. I’m having trouble seeing how she walks out of this weekend without being broken. Or, as threatened, pulled out of school.
It’s also Becky’s “internalized screaming” face. She always goes poker-faced like that when she’s freaking the fuck out and doesn’t know what to do.
And yeah, Jocelyne is straight up scared. And it’s not of her sister and I don’t think it’s even of her brother’s intransigence, but because every centimeter that angry argument gets closer to coming out, she knows she’s just a little closer to “saying something she can’t ever take back” and knowing it’s the right thing to do.
I feel so much for both of them.
When Joyce’s eyes turn red, you know you are dead.
In a prison somewhere ToeDad just got very, very afraid and he doesn’t know why.
Cut to: Ruth being investigated by the RA committee. “Have you in your opinion helped the students in your care find tools for conflict resolution”
Ruth: “well…”
Cut to: Joyce, feeding John to wild dogs (or at least trying to feed him to a very confused poodle).
Okay given some of the comments here I feel like I should repost something I said two strips ago: John doesn’t get the benefit of the doubt because he won’t give it to his own little sister.
Anyone know whats up with the rss feed being so short? As of today the oldest entry in the feed is the one from march 25th.
Huh. You’re a year older than me.
Back in 2014 or so, I was teaching a class full of younger teenagers when the subject of 9/11 came up. It suddenly struck me that not a single kid in there was old to have any coherent memories of it. A bunch of teenagers in my classroom had no memory of an event that took place when I was in college.
And then I felt old.
Most of the humans on this planet can’t remember what they were doing the day they heard that US President Kennedy had been shot. All around me were crying. There were rumors. He wasn’t dead. We were glued to our little TVs. Our hearts were broken, and yet there were people who joked about it. This was more than 50 years ago, and the grief and bitterness are still fresh.
When you are twice your current age, there will be this 9/11 thing. If you try to talk about it, people will humor you. Sure, it must have been awful. Much worse things have happened since.
And before then there was Pearl Harbor. I’m sure there must have been a day when someone realized an entire classroom of teenagers had no memory of December 7th 1941 and felt old.
And on and on it goes.
I was listening to my favorite rock station when they broke in (they probably didn’t actually break in so much as they put the next song on hold for a couple minutes) to announce Reagan being shot. I wandered upstairs to tell my little sister and my grandmother who was visiting us at the time from across the country the news. Despite not having a reputation for practical jokes, and the straight forward manner of my delivery, they both accused me of lying. So I flipped on the TV and we watched the news unfold.
There were no tears. I had voted for Reagan but I didn’t have any huge emotional attachment to him. My little sister was too young to vote at the time and like most adolescent girls was quite apolitical. As in she neither understood nor cared a bit about it. I have no idea how my grandmother voted but I never saw her cry a day in her life. She was from a pretty rugged farming and ranching stock and had outlived both of her daughters and her husband (and went on to outlive her second husband) and bad news was for her just something you dealt with.
I have seen the clips of many people openly weeping at the news of Kennedy’s death. I do not understand it. I think it was a different era, where Camelot was real and Donald Trump was not. Where our political leaders were respected even if you voted for the other party instead of a constant news cycle coverage of criticisms bordering on libel and slander.
Today the minute after the President was shot the Republicans would be on the news claiming that the Vice President should resign so that “the people” could choose their new President (I am well aware that this is not how the succession works, I am referring to the debacle surrounding the filling of the SCOTUS seat recently vacated, which is clearly described by the Constitution the Republican’s all swore to uphold upon taking their offices), even though “the people” choose both the POTUS and the VPOTUS by an overwhelming margin.
The Challenger disaster was my first “remember where you were” occasion.
I’d actually suspect most of the humans on the planet today weren’t alive when Kennedy was shot. And a goodly percentage of them even at the time didn’t learn of it immediately or particularly care. Those in the US and to a somewhat lesser extent Western Europe, sure.
Fuck tha tone police!
And Happy Getting Older Day, Willis!
For those who don’t already know, “bitter” is a thoughtstopper in U.S. fundiedom. If you can accuse somebody of being “bitter,” you mean that they are dwelling on nothing, being cranky, fussing about tiny things, etc.
Usually it’s flung at people who won’t keep sweet (= shut up) about the Toedads in their lives.
Wait, this is, like, a theologically “justified,” common thing?
Oh wow. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/samantha-field/recovering-christian_b_3931685.html
Until a couple days ago, I had a good feeling about Joyce’s brother, and it was pretty clear a lot of other readers did too. Wow. He’s pretty messed up. I don’t understand his thought process at all. What does he think would be the appropriate response to the current situation?
His thought process is very influenced by both fundie culture and western patriarchy in general. He doesn’t expect girls (Joyce is a woman but he undoubtedly thinks of her as a girl) to be able to express anger. He also expects men to be the logical ones so its a major blow to his ego that he very clearly hasn’t thought this through. (note that none of this is meant as a defense, dudes a tool.)
Here’s where I have to take a moment:
Throwing a punch properly is not just a matter of clenching up and letting fly. Getting your wrist in good alignment is important, as is leading with your top-knuckles. There are people who think you put your thumb *in* your fist, and those people we call ‘idiots who want broken thumbs’.
I say this because Joyce already has *one* injured hand from punching, and honestly, given the life she seems to lead, she’s gonna run out of hands at this rate.
No. You do not lead with your knuckles. That is how you break your knuckles, and that is both painful and possibly crippling.
You use the hammer punch instead. Google it. It can deliver fight ending blows with a minimum change of self injury. Punching someone in the ribs can hurt them, punching them in the face can break your hands. Breaking their nose with a hammer punch can temporarily blind them, fill their nose with blood and snot, and take the fight right out of them. Which should be your goal.
That said, the last actual fist fight I was in was over 30 years ago. And was with a family member 11 years older than me who decided that he could tell me what to do and that if I didn’t like it that he could beat me for daring to defy him. He learned that day that a young man is still a man. He busted my lip but I busted him up. But anyway I like to keep sharp in case it happens again.
Actually, Briny is also correct in leading with aligned knuckles, if you use the first two knuckles straight with the arm. Its one of the punches you learn in tae kwan do. If not alligned you can break your hand, can also break your hand using the hammer fist if not done correctly. Its all in the technique.
“Actually, Briny is also correct in leading with aligned knuckles”
Thank you.
Ideally, the best way to not injure your hand is to not use them in that way at all, but we can’t always have what we want in life.
They say never hit a man with a closed fist, but it is, on ocassion, hilarious.
“You sound so angry” jeez is it maybe because she is angry and she’s allowed to have emotions you insufferable shit-sucker
“When God closes the door … kick down the fucking door.”
Ohh!! That’s how they can get Becky’s SSN [if it exists] out of her family’s house.
She should seriously be able to get her records from the school, including her personal information such as her SSN. She is an adult, and if she paid for her tuition, even if it was using a check from her parents, she has the rights to her records. Now, the shitbag religion school cen be dicks about things, because that’s what shitbag religious schools are best at, but she should have other options. Old employers, perhaps. The state, as I have lost my SSN card (well, my dad lost it for me is more like it) and have had to have a replacement issued.
It’s not like her SSN is gone forever just because she can’t remember it. I’m not even sure why she can’t remember it. Did she not need to fill it in on all of her college applications? All of her job applications? That sort of thing usually sticks with a person.
Sigh.
She’s never had a job. Ross decided where she was going to school and probably filled out all the paperwork. Most places, even if they use your SSN, won’t put it on paperwork they deliver to you for security reasons.
If she really has no ID, it’s going to be hard to bootstrap the process. That’s why getting her existing paperwork from the house is attractive, if potentially difficult. Otherwise the starting point is getting a birth certificate, which in Indiana requires some form of ID.
With time, money and lawyers, it’s possible to do this. For an 18 year old kid with no resources, it’s really hard. Some of the local LGBTQ support groups might be able to help better than anyone else. Put her in touch with pro-bono legal assistance, if nothing else.
The privately funded Christian college, that called her father when she was outed as a lesbian, is not going to bend over backwards to help a lesbian dropout who got her good, Christian father arrested.
And a man as controlling as Ross would definitely not have allowed her to take care of anything financial herself.
I love that last panel so much.
Joyce with red eyes.
Either someone managed to take a picture of this exact moment and that’s what we’re seeing rather than the moment (incoming ‘pull out scene’ in next strip)…
Or Joyce is actually a Terminator who’s memory was wiped and began to believe herself a real human that had grown up in a Christian household.
I’d like someone to take Joyce aside (at a later date of course) and explain that this is why bottling up your emotions is not healthy.
Joyce has shown in the past that she has some considerable anger issues (some justified some not) within her and not expressing them just allows it to build up and then explode when she gets that trigger
On the other hand it does make for a more interesting comic so its all good
She’s got Amber eyes…
The rose colored glasses are off, lying shattered on a road somewhere, long forgotten. Everything is still tinted red, however.
This comic is a perfect illustration of when someone who is slowing coming out of heavily indoctrinated thought encounters someone so knee-deep in it they can’t fathom the Forest from the Planet.
I love this. Get angry, show your anger. Grow as a character, Joyce. As devastating as it is for her world to come crashing down on her around her “home life” – I love that she’s voicing it against the men (and women) who are close minded and set in their ways.
Obviously Sarah was right, after Joyce makes that first visit home, she will never be the same.
Heya, so I hope no one minds but I took a whack at dubbing this and yesterday’s comic because I needed the practice. It’s kinda weird sounding but here it is.
Yesterday’s: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0eYD4qQVpkd
Today’s: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1ROYoRRrkgS
What do you guys think?
“Because I Am!” Joyce explained, as spontaneous multicolored explosions blossomed behind her, a bald eagle draped her in the American flag, Freddy Mercury came back from the dead to sing “We Are The Champions”, and Jocelyn and Becky flank her in the classic Leg Cling trope…
Angry Joyce, that sounds like a good name for an internet review show.
I am NOT a THING! My name is Joyce Brown, and YOU WILL FEAR MY LASER FACE!
Powered by chicken nuggets!
Whoa, the Brown family can change their eye color at will? Awesome!
Is there any particular reason that you use a different selection color on Chrome than on Firefox?
I noticed it was pink/light red, and I thought you’d changed it to match Joyce’s eyes! But, nope. It’s still blue on Firefox.
Just as someone who makes websites, stuff displays differently on different browsers. I mean maybe that’s not it, but it might be o_o
It was then John knew he’d fucked up when trying to talk to his sister.
Given that he managed to not realize he’s being, at best, a massive insensitive jackass by now, No, i don’t think he DOES know how badly he’s fucked up.
OLDER BRUTHA JOHN, YOU DONE FUCKED UP NOW!
I’d either respond to “you sound angry” like Joyce just did or with a sarcastic remark.
Why do certain members of the Brown family have a hard time processing the idea that having a gun pointed at your face might cause a little emotional trauma?
Because they’re fundies living in a bubble.
11:41 PM? What the hell?
Whoaaa didn’t see this one until today — must have skipped right over it.
HRE EYES ARE RED! RUNAWAY!