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well at least she’s still amicable enough to ask for help with something less stressful (hopefully, i know art can be tough even if one enjoys it as a hobby) at the end
tho i’d still say ‘spending (more) time’ together, don’t think it’s what joyce had in mind versus more ‘fun’ stuff (though other than a deadline idk if dorothy is really missing that much but i imagine that time in your young adulthood/early 20s can feel like everything’s going by fast/busy) though wonder if she will drop the bombshell about her going all the way to yale (i mean america’s big but you could still catch a flight on the weekend or so versus yale being all the way in say, Korea)
well, it seems kinda like a big priority to let becky take over this, and put yale first but at least she can reschedule with yale but hopefully they wouldn’t be too strict/think she’s a flake (though i just always saw those kinda ‘ivy league’s schools as an elitist rich white person school, even if people do get in on scholarships, i would not really care if someone graduated from a ‘good’ school but a lot of american education and healthcare seems like a scam anyways lol)
When you think you are doing the right thing, any other option doesn’t really ‘feel’ like an acceptable choice to make, and you can’t really turn ‘off’ caring, you can only learn self-control and to accept you can’t ‘forcibly’ help people against their will when they are not like, a young child.
Agreed. Dorothy bothers me a lot for this. It’s the whole martyr mentality. Ooh I do so much for you and you don’t show any gratitude. But Joyce didn’t ask her to do this (I do see though she does ask for other things and it would be shitty to be ungrateful for those). But this idea that I’m going to do something that you’re telling me that you don’t want me to do and then be mad at you when you aren’t grateful for it is not a healthy mentality.
I mean, Dorothy outright admits and says in explicit terms that it’s unfair behavior. Feels like that’s not being acknowledged. Recognizing and stopping don’t matter, all that matters is the initial, unfinished start to rudeness.
Honestly I don’t really care about Joyce’s feelings on this. I know it’s a bad stereotype for women but she is going through a rather horrible period so she’s gonna be pretty grouchy. My concern is that Dorothy doesn’t seem to enjoy mothering Joyce all the time. She’s showing frustration and she doesn’t have to put herself through that. She has her own agency here. Taking a step back could be good for her too.
Either studying, a class, or work to do. I don’t think this particular event is directly related to her Yale status. However, it might still be a background thought.
While Willis may make it something important and timely that is Yale related, I don’t see how that is realistic. She was already accepted, so it’s not like they would want to interview her – if they did, it would be before, not after. And she wouldn’t be going until fall, which is 6 months from now in-universe, so I can’t think of anything important that would be needed at this point. She might need to accept the offer, but that’s a letter (or more likely these days, an email).
Maybe it’s Accepted Students Day (an event similar to orientation but before students actually accept admission)? Or a campus tour since she probably didn’t go on one before applying?
She’s missing that one tooth way back in the back, in the left-bottom section, the one that does all the rearmost chewing. She had to have it taken out when she was 13 because some other kid knocked her over with their bike and the handlebar damaged the tooth too much to keep. But only that specific tooth.
interesting liz’s name being mentioned, maybe she’ll show back up and joyce will bond /their/ friendship a bit more though not sure if she’d do anything irrational/be ‘influenced’ by liz to make some bad choices or so
Joyce used her words to articulate her exact need in this moment in time! I’m proud of her. I cannot fault her for lashing out the way she’s been doing this morning, but this is a better and more effective way to get what she needs. (Well. From Dorothy, anyway.)
I think it’s telling that Dorothy is having trouble reconciling “Joyce is always begging me to spend time with her” with “Joyce is explicitly asking for space to deal with an emotionally fraught issue in her own way”. Joyce likes Dorothy enormously and enjoys socializing with her for the sake of socializing with her. Dorothy trying to “fix” Joyce is probably the aspect of their friendship Joyce appreciates the *least*, although I will grant that she doesn’t put up much resistance to it for the most part, for a bunch of complicated reasons that include Dorothy representing pretty much everything about the “normal” secular world that Joyce knows she’s ignorant about, which makes her a kind of knowledge authority figure to Joyce, and we know how Joyce feels about authority figures!
But I think to Dorothy, being Supportive Helper Mom Who Solves Your Problems is synonymous with friendship, and she literally does not get that Joyce would want to spend time with her for other reasons, like relaxing and doing fun things together—that Joyce values her company for things besides what Dorothy can do to Improve Joyce’s Life.
Your last paragraph hit my thoughts dead on! To Dorothy, this is quality hanging out. She’s with Joyce. They are in the same area, even talking! And even better, they’re solving an issue while doing so. Two birds, one stone, etc, etc. We’ve seen this during the dorm party arc when Dorothy was writing papers even while hanging out at a party.
I hope those two can realize that they want vastly different things when it comes to friendship and can move forward in a healthier way. Joyce has been solidly manic lately (with reasons, but still) and Dorothy has been pouring a lot of herself into it.
Let’s face it, Joyce doesn’t actually like Dorothy. Dorothy is a hard-working, conscious nerd who will drop anything for her friends. But Joyce wants to bullshit with a chronic liar, get high, and play video games instead. And try to bang Joe just like Liz too, haha. She doesn’t want to have intellectual conversations about the history and social impacts of atheism with Dorothy, she wants to curse god and rail against her abusive cult with Liz. I’m sad for Dorothy but she needs to stay far away from Joyce and avoid all contact. She can’t stop caring and the only way to stop mothering Joyce is to ghost her. Joyce is telling her that’s what she needs. That is going to be hard if Joyce continues to be magnetically attracted to Dorothy. Just so sad. This is the rudest, most painful friend break up.
Unless that was an actual joke post, in which case I apologize. I’m sorry, this comments section’s tendency to Littlefinger everything (“‘I ask myself, what is the worst possible reason someone could have for doing what they’re doing,’ and then I go BUGNUT WILD in creating elaborate logic chains based on that assumption and forget to reality-check myself”) has eroded my ability to distinguish actual jokes from some of the weird things people say here sometimes.
“yes i totally wanna go through tedious and self conscious trials while having menstrual pain over having a fun lunch together”
though at least joyce is on a college campus rather than being completely isolated from people, even if she does need space, it’s good that she’s within distance to reach out to people
This is very important as a distinction. Dorothy taking Joyce’s interest in spending social/recreational time with her equating to “any time is good time” is very indicative of their obvious differing perspectives and social styles. It’s made all the worse when the majority of the time they spend together is devoted to things that make Joyce uncomfortable or have stakes instead of just a normal lunch or board game night or something. I would have a hard time maintaining a friendship if the only time my friend wanted to spend time together was in that context. That said, Dorothy is a very driven individual, and doesn’t seem to really HAVE downtime in her eyes, just opportunities to better/further her life and career. Her idea of socializing is taking advantage of those opportunities together. It’s neither person’s fault that there’s a misalignment, though it’s both of their faults they’re not addressing that and just letting it fester.
I think Joyce wants to interact with dorothy as a equal but at the same time has become too comfortable relying on her taking charge of things. Dorothy for her part doesn’t quite understand the difference between being a leader to her friends and being a mom and its causing strain on their friendship because she has set herself up as the person who takes care of joyce to an unhealthy degree..
Would people be happier with Dorothy if she were a fair weather friend who just ignored when Joyce needs help? Even Billie thought that was shitty, she’s the one who started the whole “get Joyce the medication she needs” ordeal. Remember Dorothy didn’t want to interfere before Billie came and yelled at her for being a bad friend. Maybe Dorothy should have just called Billie up to make her get and take the medication.
Dorothy is looking tired, all the stress from classes and now handling Joyce’s sudden attitude is wearing her out. I understand why they’re both upset to some degree, but I can’t figure out why they’re having such a problem over taking birtch control meds.
that said birch isn’t really a shrub, it’s a tree but ok =)
good (atrocious) pun
i mean, it also kind of looks Kyrik had written, b*tch control meds, which, i don’t know what joke to make about that, but, assume i’m being really funny? please
I think Dorothy might view things in terms of solvable problems- that you can organize your way out of pretty much everything. Joyce’s life is, apparently, going to be one thing after another, basically forever, and while you’re totally right that Dorothy is exhausted trying to help, Joyce might be thinking that she isn’t being seen by people she knows as a person with volition but a project. And that’s its own kind of exhausting. On the other hand, I don’t see Joyce taking much interest in her friends’ issues on anything like the level they do hers, so there’s more than one way to look at it.
Yeah, even when Dorothy was talking yesterday Joyce completely ignored what she was saying- basically pointing out Joyce was being borderline insulting- and kept steamrollering on with her nutty talk.
Joyce is an absolute mess. if she wants to pretend like Liz that she is chill so her friends learn that she isn’t a fundie anymore, she needs to get it together. I thought Joyce freaking out and having fundie PTSD was adorable but then lashing out at your best friend, who has been putting up with your freak-outs and listening to you process your de-conditioning, is just really gross. Just so sad for Dorothy. She’s going to spend the rest of the semester locked in a study room at the library with her phone in Focus Mode.
Although maybe Joyce saying out loud that Liz is right means it’s time to transfer to a new school where she can pretend to be normal, haha, good luck with that. Maybe transfer to a new dorm like Billie and pretend to be a totally different person and snub all your old friends.
I’m glad they’re at least both voicing their hangups right now. That’s something they both really needed to do.
Also, the last panel got me, that’s definitely getting things back on track for the two. Not an entirely unreasonable ask from Joyce given Dorothy suggested it in the first place, though still funny for Joyce to ask after all of this.
Indeed, this is about how such incidents run. It’s only been an hour or so. Dorothy’s “my friend is hurting and I must help” is being overcome by the mounting evidence that “I’ve helped as much as I can.” Joyce’s “make everything go away!” is being tamped down by the realization that “Dorothy isn’t understanding me, I need to explain.” And it’s working. They’re starting to communicate again. They’ll be okay again by the next day. (Come October, we’ll see.)
She didn’t set boundaries. She’s acting like the spoiled brat she always was. “No mom! I want to do it myself!” *proceeds to give mom instructions instead of doing it herself like she just claimed she wanted * Joyce is using her friends without ANY consideration for how it impacts them, and treats them like shit when they try to make her follow through after they’ve done the actual work.
Agreed. I really don’t get Joyce’s attitude here. I’ve BEEN the person that needed help to get basic life necessities taken care of, and I was SO GRATEFUL for the help. Joyce is spitting on it but without Dorothy she wouldn’t have gotten her meds and she would’ve continued to be in pain. And to go back and ask for another favor afterwards?! I truly do not get what is going through her head.
Re: yesterday’s comment section, Joyce seems like she’s in Autistic burnout/overload. There’s been a lot going on that takes a big toll (conflict with friends, trauma, drs etc) plus a bad period (which ramps everything up by 100) and the result is emotional dysregulation, including outbursts, overstimulation and sensory sensitivity, greater difficulty with change, and loss of skills/capacities that are needed for day-to-day living, including executive functioning skills.
And the ONLY way to recover is to remove yourself from the situation, to be alone, to stop trying to “do” and just focus on comfort and safety.
Current Joyce is a perfect example of what burnout looks like and how it affects functioning. Willis is also really effectively showing how it affects those around her without resorting to “person good/person bad”.
As much as Dorothy’s intentions are good, and the overall result will be good for Joyce to be on medication, this kind of help isn’t what Joyce needs *right now*, as she’s been saying for the past week or however long. Long term, meds good, but immediately, being crowded and prodded and pushed to go into sensory hell and do new scary things could make things so much worse.
I often need help to manage things like appointments or any online/scheduling type tasks, and when I’m overloaded I need help with more mundane things like cooking and cleaning. It’s never helpful when someone pushes their “help” onto me. It’s infantilising and aggravating, and a lot of time it makes me feel worse by both being being an intrusion in my space and by making me so aware of all the things I need to do but can’t right now.
When I’m burnt out or getting there, I will react a lot like Joyce but with more tears then feel awful about it later because I don’t have as much control over my actions or emotions as I do when I’m well. If I’m pushed, or if I push myself to work through it then I lose ALL control and go into meltdown or shutdown (meltdown being the outward explosion of emotion, shutdown being an inward implosion). It takes much longer to recover from that than if I hit the brakes beforehand.
What always gets me about some of these comments — and in general — is how people who are just like Joyce can so often be unsympathetic to other people who are also just like Joyce. As someone who’s also neurodivergent and has often been on the receiving end of Dorothy and Sarah’s kind of “care” I’m always blown away by how other neurodivergent people act like I need to just suck it up.
More and more I’m coming to think most people see pain — physical, emotional, mental — as a moral failing, even if they don’t actually word it as such.
That’s often my experience, too. When we see that pain in others, it’s only ever through their external behaviours, and sometimes those behaviours get in the way of people empathising, especially when mixed in with a lot of “discourse” that gets in the head and clouds it (like around people being “toxic” and manipulative).
That’s all true and I think the burnout is a good way to look at it, but despite Willis trying to avoid “person good/person bad” that’s how a lot of people are taking it. Either throwing all the blame on Joyce or on her friends for not handling it right.
The boundaries around this in terms of how to help and how to manage need to be worked out and negotiated. Dorothy’s not doing a great job of it, but she’s making it up as she’s going along. And Joyce isn’t being exactly reasonable about it – as we see in that last panel: falling back on relying on Dorothy to do stuff for her right after getting upset about how she was trying to help.
This is kind of why I really like this comic and how W’s writing has evolved. They are just making it up as the go along and messing up and figuring it out, because they’re kids living alone for the first time and going through hell to boot.
I do also get why we all get frustrated and hold the characters to higher standards, like, our brains are hardwired to make judgements based on past experiences, it takes so long for anything to be resolved irl, and a lot of us have outgrown the experiences that the characters are going through so we have more after-sight (or whatever that word is).
Being autistic doesn’t mean you are a jerk. She isn’t a four-year-old having a melt-down, Joyce is an adult. It’s her choice to lash out in this very personal, hurtful way instead of just saying thanks.
For assistance that she actively doesn’t want? For being dragged out, against her will, to something she’s actively afraid of, for medicine that– as they said the first week is a placebo– She Doesn’t Fucking Need Right This Second? While she’s in pain?
It’s not just Joyce behaving badly here, and Dorothy isn’t owed unconditional gratitude for so Generously helping Joyce when she doesn’t want to be helped.
Frankly, Joyce is right. They’re all up in her butthole. And maybe she’s not reacting the most maturely about it, but even adults have meltdowns, actually, particularly adults on the edge of burnout that were never taught how to deal with melt-downs when they WERE four years old.
And Dorothy knows that. And yes, Dorothy knows that she’s doing what is best for Joyce right now, but she also knows that it Fucking Grates to be a grown ass woman being HANDLED by your friends, because no one wants to treat you as a grown ass woman.
Growing up is hard, and no one understands, apparently, that it doesn’t magically stop the moment you turn eighteen.
jsyk, a meltdown isnt a tantrum. It’s an extreme, uncontrollable reaction to intense stimuli and stress. It’s painful and scary and way worse than panic attacks (which you have some control over and will generally abate in 20 minutes). It’s like being trapped inside an overheating engine watching a crash involving everyone around you and completely unable to help or even talk them through it.
And yes, being Autistic means that sometimes you are unable to check your emotional reactions when you are overwhelmed because that is what an Autistic brain is like. It sucks. It really, really sucks, and a lot of the time you hate yourself for it. It happens most with burnout, as I said, and Joyce is an excellent portrayal of what that looks like.
God, I hate my meltdowns, ESPECIALLY when I’m having them. I’m being a bongo! I know I’m being a bongo! I am actively watching myself say things I don’t mean and don’t want to say! I want to scream and cry and I can’t even say why it’s all just Too Fucking Much and it needs to Stop Right Now, Thank You! Every single thought is in all caps with an exclamation mark! Everyone is trying to make me use my words and my words aren’t working and why won’t they just leave me alone! Make them go away!
Exactly! For me it can be physically painful because everything is so bright and anything touching me feels like it burns. It’s the touch-equivalent of the sound feedback makes when a microphone is near a speaker. I made cards for my phone and wallet with instructions in case it happens in public which basically say what it is, to call my sister, not paramedics, use yes and no questions if they need to ask, and park my ass in the nearest dark closet until I have at least fine motor functions back online.
I’m feeling for Joyce here. What she needs the most right now is time alone to process, and then after that, someone to listen to her. Not have a conversation like Dorothy, just someone to rant to who’ll just nod and go, “yeah, that sucks.”
My understanding of it is she’s picking up birth control pills right now right? Was there any indication they’re giving her pain killers too? Because birth control pills may help her be in less pain for her next period, but it isn’t like they’ll do anything now. I agree that she needs to start taking them now since that’s usually the instruction, take them when your next period starts, but it isn’t like they will help her yet. Unless I missed the part where they said there were more?
see the thing about getting favors done when you don’t ask for them and in fact specifically didn’t want them is like having someone shoving cake in your face, really smearing it in your face and then screaming “WHY AREN’T YOU GRATEFUL FOR THIS?”
ok, I might be a bit hyperbolic with that example, but I hope it gets the message across. Having good intentions does mean that the actions are good. Just because Dorothy wants to help Joyce doesn’t mean forcing it is healthy or actually helpful
EXACTLY, thank God. People keep putting it on Dorothy- “she’s the mom friend, she doesn’t know how NOT to take charge of people” etc etc… but what’s the alternative, here? Joyce prior to getting this sorted is not viable, for herself or others. I would say Dorothy needs to create some healthy distance from Joyce, though.
I do not think that is what is getting that reaction, even if vast swaths of people who claim to like this comic strip have no apparent sense of humor at all.
other than mocking religion together, liz mentioned cutting ppl outta her life (though not as if she’s just gonna outright be an atheist herself and wanting ppl to know she misses church/hiding some aspects of her personality) , though i can’t imagine joyce really cutting dorothy off permanently
Oh, so only a temporary cutting-off? Lucky Dorothy, to be allowed back into the sacred embrace of Joyce’s one-way friendships. She should run to Yale and never look back, for God’s sake.
you know, Dorothy IS allowed to stop (s)mothering Joyce, right? She could say “actually fuck this, you’re on your own” and be within her right. You know that right? She’s not Joyce’s legal guardian or anything
She feels obligated to help Joyce because Joyce evidently has neither the wherewithal to do much of anything herself nor anyone else who will help her. You know that, right?
I took that to mean “literally running away from school and hanging out somewhere else so I don’t have to see or interact with my social group that’s stressing me out very badly with their expectations of me sounds real appealing just now”.
Maybe she should go hang out with Jocelyne for a weekend! And I’m totally not saying that just because I love seeing them interact and it’s been awhile.
I like that better than Joyce switching dorms to pretend to be different person like Billie, and Dorothy locking herself in the library and blocking Joyce to avoid her two-faced drama.
This is good. Dorothy has been a bit too smothering as of late, and looking up life drawing classes for Joyce would be the best way to help her while giving her the space she wants.
actually the best thing to do is to stop helping her until she’s being a friend again. anyone who repeatedly asks for help from people moments after telling them as rudely as possible to go away and leave them alone should expect to start hearing a No or two.
Maybe the best thing to do is to arrange to research that *together*, *a little later*, and make Joyce do the actual research. Teach a woman to fish, and she’ll eat for a lifetime….
Judging from the last panel Joyce has developed learned helplessness on her friends (or rather transferred it from her upbringing). Looking up drawing classes is something Joyce should be able to do by herself and Dorothy shouldn’t be doing it for her. Dorothy needs to reevaluate how she interacts with Joyce and her other friends because now shes made herself too much of a mom which while tempting isn’t doing Joyce or herself any favors in the long run.
Joyce and Dorothy are communicating and Joyce is clearly communicating what would be helpful and what she can’t deal with right now in her current state. This is what adulting looks like.
And also probably Autistic. I think it’s good for them to be talking about what sort of help would *actually* help right now, and if looking up classes helps, then cool. Personally, the area I need the most support in is around scheduling/appointments/forms-type thing. It’s easier for me to learn to repair an engine than apply for classes. My brain’s wiring just isn’t set up for it.
I’m both ADHD and Autistic, so there’s a lot exectutive dysfunction (like attention, working memory, planning). With forms I have difficulty holding information in my head short-term, so I have to reread pages at a time. I often have trouble understanding what is being asked of me (this also goes for assignments) so I need to seek a lot of clarification. I also can’t estimate for shit. Can’t estimate time, cost, space, risk, nada so there’s a lot of questions or factors that I can’t account for when I’m planning as a result. Working memory plus time management means that I struggle to remember/plan appointments or any kind of scheduling. I’ve had the same classes for 6 weeks now and still need to check when they’re on before making additional plans. It’s also impossible to estimate whether I am going to be okay enough to follow through, so setting long-term plans gives a lot of anxiety. Because those sorts of tasks rely on executive functioning skills that I lack, it takes a LOT of effort for me where it takes someones else relatively little. Plus there’s a lot of little mistakes that can be made made and they tend to have big consequences, like I spend upwards of $1000 in missed appointments a year, once misunderstood a question about reporting income and lost more than $2000 in pay, and royally screwed up my class schedule so I’ll be at uni for 2 extra years.
Being Autistic, my general “functioning” fluctuates. When I’m well I have no issues with “adulting”. When I’m not well I can’t remember more than one task at a time (eg I can’t go get my phone AND my charger from another room), I struggle reading (I just see the individual letters and have to mentally put them together), my fine-motor skills deteriorate so my writing looks like a preschooler’s, and my capacity to focus is murdered.
I find university and government websites to be particularly frustrating to deal with. There’re not designed in a particularly ND friendly way and can be very confusing. Unfortunately I’m studying social work and my assessment is all about the very disability insurance scheme I’ve been fighting to access for years.
The fact is, they’re still young. They’re barely adults, and most of them come from childhoods that didn’t adequately equip them with the skills they need. No one here is being a perfect friend to each other– and that’s realistic. That’s life.
Sometimes we hurt each other. Sometimes we lash out. Sometimes we fuck up. Two steps forward, one step back, from our first baby steps until we’re one foot in the grave.
Joyce needs to learn to take care of things herself. Joyce wants to learn to take care of things herself. Joyce is afraid of learning to take care of things herself. No one will give Joyce the chance to Try to take care of things for herself. Not maliciously, not unkindly; they are trying to do what they think is right.
They’re grating against each other right now, and it happens. That’s part of life. And part of maintaining friendships as adults is accepting and making apologies, after times like this.
Joyce you were so close until that last panel. You can use a search engine. You should be in Amber’s beginner computer class from her first semester if not.
This is the answer I want Dorothy to make, haha. Stick up for yourself girl! She’s only here with Joyce because she believed it when Billie accused her of being a bad friend.
If Dorothy did give up yale (and we don’t know that she did) that does not indenture Joyce to her. Like, for one thing I honestly think Joyce doesn’t know (we haven’t seen Dorothy tell anyone) and for two, Joyce didn’t ask Dorothy to give up on her desire to go to Yale.
Someone giving up a thing without being asked to do so doesn’t put you under any obligation to rearrange your plans/mood/time. And while most people probably would because they love their friend, Joyce is not psychic and can’t know what she doesn’t know.
Joyce isn’t being a Bad Friend. She’s being Tired, Overwhelmed, and In Pain. Asking for space is not some shitty thing that is done TO a person, it’s a boundary for Dorothy to respect (which she seems keen to!)
Sure, sure, but she’s also being Tiring, Overwhelming, and A Pain, with no consideration for Dorothy or anyone else, like she has been ever since turning away from religion. Feeling bad doesn’t excuse shittiness.
“Feeling bad” is seriously minimizing her situation. She has trauma she’s working through, debilitating physical pain, and likely is some flavour of neurodivergent which can create some unfortunate issues with being overwhelmed.
Also, to a certain degree I do think “feeling bad” excuses some shittiness. Joyce is human, sometimes when humans are in pain (emotional or physical) their patience is lower and they can’t handle everything they normally can without being abrasive. It’s just life.
Also, no one is forcing Dorothy to be there. If she’s Tired, Overwhelmed, and finding Joyce to be A Pain then she can take a break the same way Joyce is.
If Joyce “attitude” soooooo bad, then Dorothy can just fucking walk away, do her own thing for a while, come back IF and when they both want to.
It’s kinda breaking my brain that Joyce is explicitly asking for this, but you (person with the – username) is asking as if Joyce is being a horrible burden on poor little Dorothy.
Literally all Dorothy had to do to not be in this scenario was… choose not to be and do something else instead. So clearly she at least cares about Joyce enough to not take the erratic behavior personally, which she explicitly stated she’s deliberately not doing out of sympathy for Joyce’s apparently horrendous pain. I dunno, there’s a weird aftertaste to the “Joyce is a wretched toddler” remarks, when this isn’t even that big of an issue in-comic.
Hey everyone, it’s me, Mr D.
You may have noticed I haven’t been commenting or snarking around as much as I used to these past couple of weeks!
Well, I moved to europe! That, however, means I am usually not up yet by the time the strip updates, so any of you who likes seeing me around? I’ll likely be around the middle of the comment section from now on, if not the bottom.
Assuming Hinge is another one of those single-word-named, “let’s all set up casual hookups until bots and scammers inevitably flood the app” type services?
What I wanna know is, what do all these apps offer to stand out, aside from not already being full of the aforementioned bots? I feel like I hear about a new one every year or two, so they must not be very good.
so, allegedly, Hinge is supposed to be less about swiping left and right in an epic trance of obscene consumerism and more about finding true lurv to the point where they market themselves as the app whose goal is to be deleted.
but hey, ultimately, if you’re not into dating apps, it’s probably, like, just another dating app for you to not be into.
i’ve only tried okcupid once, hooked up with one person, freaked the fuck out, told them its not them its me, torched my profile and decided i was too broken to ever try casual dating ever again, so i’m not any sort of expert
Maybe this is pessimistic of me, but I still have doubts that anyone’s gonna find their True Love on a dating app. I know a couple people who use ’em, but all anyone ever seems to have is bad stories about their results, mixed with an occasional “Yeah, we fucked and that was sort of it.” Not being judgemental, of course, it’s just one of those things I don’t Get.
So hey, this is days late and probably dollars short, but what the hey.
I was single for a very, very long time before I decided to start using a dating app. And I tried Hinge because, as was said, it was apparently the thing to use. And after just a few weeks, I met someone and we’ve been seeing each other since the beginning of July. We’re not “hooking up”, but rather dating as I understand it. Hinge has been successfully deleted from my phone, as they advertised. A friend of mine, as I recall, met his current girlfriend of more than a year on Hinge (we only met at his father’s funeral and all got *really* tanked afterwards, so it’s a bit muddled).
You know, Dorothy, nobody actually forced you to seize control of Joyce’s life. So yeah, you’re right that blurting out the fact you in fact have other things to do isn’t fair to Joyce. She does need help, and is asking for it, but maybe you should listen to her and not force it on her in ways she told you she is uncomfortable with just because you cannot wait for a few days so at least her period is over and she had time to digest this and the autism thing and she’s in a better state.
exactly what Akane said, wait a few days so joyce has time to process. I’m not super defending joyce here because she is admittedly being a bit of a brat, but clearly she’s in no place to deal with all these big changes Right Now This Exact Second. even if she was able to start her new birth control immediately without the placebos, it probably wouldn’t start having a noticeable effect until after this period is over anyway, so there really is no need to rush out and get it
I actually agree. Everyone’s mad that Joyce is pissy about being dragged out in pain today, but she didn’t fucking ask for this, Billie demanded that Dorothy do it.
Billie needs to make up her fucking mind about whether she’s here or not.
She is, massively. The kicker is the “Liz was right” snarky comment, which is basically out of line. I usually roll my eyes a bit over Dorothy being a martyr, but she might actually be some kind of saint.
Dorothy’s the one that recommended those classes in the first place. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask her to look up something she herself suggested personally.
… It’s unreasonable enough given the exact circumstances, it seems like. Joyce could have just asked her later, when they hadn’t literally JUST had a slightly fraught interaction. Unless this is Joyce’s “smoothing it over” play, which, hey, congrats, Dorothy’s a soft touch and she got what she wants. Good for her.
It /does/ feel like a fumbled ‘smooth it over’ play. Very ‘I know I’m fucking up and I know I’m being irritating, here is me showing interest in something you recommended to me and asking for more information about it so you know that your advice is important to me’ vibes.
I was happy to note (to myself) that Dorothy’s last expression has narrowed eyes (kind of like an eye-roll without actually being one) and not the kind that one would have if she actually appreciated being asked to do more work (when she just said she was busy). It’s not actually about control for Dorothy—she would be happier if Joyce didn’t need her because she actually cares about Joyce and has the personality of a fixer who hasn’t learned how to protect herself. (I have been there, one of my favorite bloggers is just coming out of this.)
But I do wonder if Carole liked that kind of gesture. I could totally see Joyce’s last thing as being a normal response with an overbearing mom who doesn’t actually want an independent kid. So Joyce’s intentions are to appease but Dorothy isn’t a controlling SAHM with nothing but free time.
And to add— I continue to be so impressed with these Joyce storylines. They really are realistic and the facial expressions are so fantastic that you can actually analyze Dorothy’s expressions and know how she’s feeling. The strips have always been good but the Liz storyline really seemed to take everything to a new level, I feel like.
They’re not Dorothy’s life drawing classes. Do you also expect Dorothy to take them after she looks them up if Joyce asks her to? Because she suggested it as potentially helpful to Joyce?
Like, your weird-ass fantasy scenario in which I’ve suddenly gone completely braindead and decided that “looking up something you yourself suggested” somehow means “sign yourself up for and attend an extra class”, there’s no level on which I can engage this in a meaningful way. What the fuck are you talking about? What the flying fuck is anybody fucking talking about today?
Sometimes I wonder if people reading this know that this is a comic strip and the characters are meant to be doofy caricatures primed for panel-four-punchlines more than they’re meant to be real people
I see this sentiment all over the place. Are YOU for real? Comics are a form of literature that often deals with very heavy stuff, leavened with levity. It’s so weird to think of dishing on people who discuss them seriously. There’s no need to append “of course these characters are fictional,” everyone knows that.
Also many of the characters in DOA are reflective of actual experiences.
None of that disputes the fact that the characters are meant to have exaggerated and intentionally quirky personalities before they’re meant to be earnest reflections of real life. I’m aware that Joyce is based off of the author’s own experience but that doesn’t mean she can’t be overblown for comedic effect and a self-deprecating jab
Some people enjoy talking about fictional characters as if their relationships and the way they handle those relationships matters. It’s how we process and enjoy the comic.
Others like trying to dunk on strangers talking about a comic in the comments section of that comic.
Like, we saw this during when she stretched herself too thin while dating Walky, but Dorothy has a bad habit of doing her Problem Solver thing the the point of mental and emotional exhaustion. And we see that here, where she skipped something significant to help Joyce with birth control medication thar honestly probably could have waited a day, two days, even a few hours because Joyce Had a Problem That Needed Fixing (nevermind how Joyce doesn’t want fixing right now).
Not only would it be more helpful to Joyce and their friendship if Dorothy gave her space, but it would also be healthier for Dorothy to realize that she can’t and shouldn’t hold herself responsible for everyone’s needs. Part of leadership is learning when to delegate and when to prioritize, after all.
Girl’s lucky she’s so blonde ’cause she’s gonna end up with stress grays before she graduates at this rate.
Yes to all this! If Dorothy is feeling stressed and stretched by all this…actually backing off and giving Joyce more space to do this by herself or with other people’s help was always an option! In fact, she was perfectly fine NOT helping Joyce deal with her terrible periods (because she thought it would be a real pain and Joyce would be difficult about it) until *Jennifer* stepped in to help Joyce (and actually got positive results). At which point Dorothy *immediately* tried to get heavily involved with it, because Dorothy has a self-image rooted in Being The Helping Friend, and Jennifer (who also has a self-image rooted in being A Fixer) was competition. There’s more going on here than Dorothy being endlessly selfless with an ungrateful, undeserving Joyce.
Not quite to your point, but looking back at that scene in light of commentary since then: Damn Jennifer was being toxic there. Sure, she might have been more successful and her approach to handling Joyce might be a better one, but it’s still handling Joyce.
She’s subtler to Joyce, but she opens to Dorothy and Becky with “Why aren’t any of you solving this?” and “I figured in my absence, between the two of you, you could reasonably take care of her.” She’s being just as infantilizing to Joyce, in that she’s decided she knows better and that Joyce needs taking care of, she just was a little less obvious about it to her face.
Which is good, but she’s also had less chances to do it and have it blow up. And she left Dorothy and Becky to handle the follow up.
To Billie, a friend group takes care of /each other/. It’s not infantilizing Joyce, it’s being a community. The point of Joyce needing taking care of is not that Joyce is a helpless baby, it’s that Joyce is the one in trouble / in pain RIGHT NOW.
And yes, Joyce has a tendency to be that person, but that doesn’t really make her a baby. Not to Billie, I don’t think. SHe’s too much of A Fixer to really have that baggage. EVERYONE needs her help, to her.
Good point. It was Billie’s nasty lecture that convinced Joyce’s friends they needed to DO SOMETHING and FIX JOYCE. Meanwhile Billie is nowhere to be found.
I truly, truly do not think Jennifer is personally okay. She’s still a mess, and heavily in denial about being a mess.
I also think she has, for reasons that are not necessarily personally healthy *for her*, concretely helped Joyce on her menstrual issues more than Joyce’s other friends have, and that her successful offer of support to Joyce on this was rooted in approaching Joyce in a way that didn’t infantilize her. We love to talk about intent vs impact, so: regardless of whether Jennifer’s motives were spurred by condescending feelings about Joyce’s ability to handle her own problems, she kept that aspect of her motives enough to herself not to alienate the person she was trying to help. And Jennifer successfully helped the person she was trying to help, without adding to Joyce’s psychological burden during a crisis period. It’s not *supposed* to be a competition.
That’s fair, but she also stepped in at one point. We don’t know how she would have reacted to Joyce not yet having gone to get the prescription. She’s ignored the parts that had Dorothy and Becky hesitating at the beginning.
My suspicion is that she’d be acting similarly. “Why aren’t you solving this?”
It’s a lot easier to do one thing without coming off as infantilizing. Much harder to keep managing someone else’s problems without doing so and she does very clearly see Joyce’s issues as problems that she (or Joyce’s other friends) should be solving.
Yeah I think she has a bit of a compulsion to help everyone and control every situation. Walky commented on the way she goes berserk if she feels she can’t solve every problem because that means she’s incapable of doing something.
Exactly. Nice to see some common sense amongst the “but but think about poor Joyce”, like half these people would spend five minutes dealing with someone as much of a pain in the ass as Joyce is being, let alone over and over again like Dorothy
Quite a few people have an “all or none” sort of approach to this webcomic, especially if they relate in any way to the characters. “This is my personal take on the situation because of my situation and this is why this is right/wrong.” That sort of approach is very common and when met with skepticism or a differing comment that may add some nuance, they dig their heels in the sand and don’t budge.
Like, a comment mentioning “victim blaming” was used and I couldn’t help but laugh. It’s fine to get invested in the story and everything that goes on, but there’s a line that a few of the commenters here just blow past. That’s why I personally only comment like…a very small handful of times.
I mentioned in my comments yesterday that both Dorothy’s and Joyce’s irritation can be correct. But, other comments insists that one is more correct than the other as if both can’t correct. There’s no nuance especially since feelings are at play. Some commenters feel that if another person critiques certain characters then That’s Bad (TM), justified or not.
Dorothy and Joyce can both be shits, they can both be in pain, they can both be irritated. They can both be justified in said feelings. It’s not the Sadness Olympics. There’s no gold medal here.
I mean. I have? And I’ve been the one being as much of a pain as Joyce is, too. When you care about each other, you understand that sometimes you’re going to drive each other to the point of frustration. And sometimes, you need to step back and stop trying to help for a bit unless they actually ask you to, because trying to help when they don’t want it just frustrates everyone, actually?
At this point it would be best for Dorothy to leave Joyce alone and let her figure it out. She needs to learn to stand on her own even if she ends up falling quite a bit. That’s not her problem. She needs to focus on getting into Yale and move forward with her life. I had a Dorothy friend back at uni and she really helped me as I am neurodivergent and had a lot of issues. She helped me get my thoughts together and introduced me to the university counseling center which I was able to start therapy and then I was able to start making decent day to day plans. So I hope Joyce finds some sort of support from possibly a therapist because this is way above her friends pay grade.
Hey, I think this webcomic about stressed-out teenagers might not be the shining example of perfect, algorithm-optimised interpersonal behavior or something.
Both of these characters are having a hard time. Pitting them against each other like every punctuation mark is enough information for a half-hour episode of Death Battle, when that’s definitely not the actual case, it feels strange. And comments are getting needlessly personal and pissy about it, which feels a tiny bit disgusting.
Or in a different tone: Being An Adult is when you have absolutely no comfort at any given time, and the responsible thing to do when you see a person being visibly uncomfortable (and therefore childish) is to grab them by the jaw, hold their mouth open, and scream down their throat about how entitled they are for ever getting even vaguely ruffled about something. If they’re noticeably braindifferent and you’re aware of it in any way, they’re automatically just using it as an excuse to harm you as much as they can.
hey Taffy, hey. remember when you said it did wonders to your mental health to hang out here less?
maybe…? maybe this is one those moments where calling it a day and doing something more rewarding is a good idea?
swear i’m just trying to help you, not silence you, it’s just, you sound a tiny bit on edge. feel free to ignore me if this is unwelcome (and/or tell me to fuck myself, i mean, never a bad idea)
Nah, you’re probably right. I’m taking certain people way too seriously. Probably stems from Joyce’s current volatile state feeling very #relatable and then seeing people have actual spite for her over it.
Sometimes I let myself forget that this is the same website where I was more or less told to kill myself outright by a person who I’m pretty sure still comments here.
Pretty sure I know exactly who it was but I’m not gonna name ’em, solely because when I Google certain key words I remember from that episode, I can’t find the specific strip. I figure it was taken down at some point, and good riddance honestly, but it does make proof hard to come by.
i’m not sure we’re thinking about the same time, but i remember this situation?
in which case the person used 2 different accounts, the comments from one of which (the worst comments) were deleted.
i don’t know that they still comment, at least i don’t think i’ve seen that username, but maybe you’ve recognized them somehow commenting under a different pseud
I’m definitely finding Joyce more relatable than Dorothy. Joyce has been going through a lot of tough changes and stuff lately, and her friends really haven’t given her the space and time she needs to sort things out.
Yeah I think her friends are reacting to the old Joyce who feel comforted by someone taking charge of her stuff, but Joyce is changing and now feels smothered by it.
Is it weird phrasing if I say that I think Current Joyce is in a sort of transitional state between Where She Started and Where She Starts Next? She’s only been out and about in The Real World for something close to half a year, and it’s been one hell of a half-year at that. Which is to say, there’s probably bound to be some tension since people’s expectations of her started off on such an extreme foot.
Maybe it’s cuz I’ve been awake for like 2 days straight at this point, but that feels weird the way I said it.
That’s not how it would usually be expressed in English but I understand where you’re coming from. She’s in a transitional period brought about by her new environment and also the traumatic experiences from her old community.
No it makes sense! Joyce is a huge mess because that poor girl is….I wanted to use a butterfly metaphor, but let’s face it “in a cocoon” is exactly the wrong idea. She’s in a transitional state, though, and that’s as metaphorically as slimy and uncomfortable as what I assume occurs within a cocoon.
Oh you’re definitely right! I remember my own similar meltdown, after we finally got me out of Texas and I had a few months to process, and suddenly everything hit like a fucking TRUCK.
Frankly, Joyce is handling this transition better than I did. I spent a solid week screaming and crying, followed by a month long manic state before I could finally get my shit together, and I was immensely lucky to be surrounded by people who loved me at the time.
It’s named ‘Dumbing Of Age’ for a reason. Did we forget that this is the story about them learning to become adults?
She’s really trying, here. I think she’s maybe a little out of her depth though, biting off more than she could reasonably be expected to chew, but all she can really do about it is take better stock of her own (current) capabilities versus what she’d like to be doing.
That’s what I really enjoy about the current arc. Dorothy is trying her best to help Joyce, but Joyce doesn’t always want or appreciate the help especially as she changes and figures out who she is now.
As someone who has been in Dorothys position before… you gotta stop doing this kinda thing, Dorothy, because eventually you will be sick of it and you will lash out at a time that isn’t great for anyone involved.
For real! It’s not good for either of them. It’s hurting both of them, and building resentment between them that doesn’t need no be there– Dorothy needs to learn that it’s okay to let her friends struggle a little bit, that she doesn’t have to swim out with a life preserver the moment someone starts to flounder.
“You want to spend time with me, but when I push myself into your personal healthcare and do things you vocally find unpleasant at best you get grumpy, what gives?”
I mean really, Dorothy, this doesn’t seem that mysterious
Definitely getting frustrated with the increasing amount of ableism and intolerance in the comment section towards a character for traits that very much reflect what many people on the spectrum have, such as trying to gain space when having an autistic meltdown (not to mention period cramps and possibly social anxiety). Having autistic traits shouldn’t be grounds for ending a friendship, let alone fleeing to an entirely different university. The lack of empathy for both of them being in a shitty situation where there aren’t good options is actually really toxic and frustrating to see. There doesn’t always have to be a hero and villain in every situation. Sometimes, often IMO, arguments happen because both sides have genuinely valid reasons for what they believe. In those situations, ending the conversation to recover is often the best answer because no one will win if it keeps going. That doesn’t make either of them a villain or necessarily in the wrong. They are just coming at the situation with different perspectives and missing a lot of the differences that lead to them taking things badly;
I think Willis is doing a great job at portraying what it looks like and sort of the reactions/impacts on other people without being judgemental of any of the kids just trying to work shit out as they go. Like, they are just kids, they’re living on their own for the first time and adapting to adult friendships, plus going through more shit than the majority of the population has to. And they’re actually doing pretty alright at navigating that.
It is a limitation of the distant third-person perspective that it’s hard to empathise with the internal experience since what we mostly see is externalised behaviours. It’s why I’ve been writing a bit more about what it’s like for myself to experience overstimulation/burnout/meltdowns etc. Now I’m wondering whethre it’d be possible to do a fan-comic of what this could be like from Joyce’s internal perspective (although i think that’d be a bit iffy for me to do since she’s autobiographical).
i think joyce picking up life drawing would be really good for her – it’ll give her space outside of her friends, her own little joyce thing.
all her other classes (that we see) seem to overlap heavily with her friends’ classes, and she shares a room with sarah – so she doesn’t really get a whole lot of time to herself. everything is communal, and while there are going to be other people in the life drawing class, they aren’t going to be people joyce has close relationships with. it’ll be a good space for her to center herself i think.
not sure if her being in the same class as malaya and mary would be much better, though i suppose malaya is indifferent/tolerant enough to ‘trust’ joyce with fuckface, but I imagine mary and her would clash even more now that she’s full on atheist
All Joyce expressed a desire for during this whole period of illness, pun intended, was to be left alone – which is pretty relatable.
No, Dorothy, she doesn’t know, because you didn’t say anything about it.
And yet, as soon as Dorothy says something about it Joyce asks her to do another favor for her that will take more of her time. Dorothy should really set that boundary too.
This is twice now that Joyce has expressed wanting her friends to leave her alone… followed quickly by a request to do something for her that she can quite easily do herself (though at least this one sort of makes sense, because what would fetching a pad help? she still has to get up and shuffle to the bathroom to change it…).
I don’t think it’s a coincidence. I think this weird push/pull thing going on might happen a couple more times and end up leading somewhere.
Joyce: *acts like a traumatized, tired, overstimulated autistic woman on the verge of a meltdown because she’s in pain and intensely hormonal on her period*
Everyone: OMG THE DEVIL.
I just. Do you ever think about the fact that you are almost certainly friends with someone who’s had a moment like this? That someone you love has had a moment like this?
How do you discard someone as being irredeemable, without thinking about what the people in your life reading what you think will feel when they realize you actually hate them?
I KNOW. Like! I cannot imagine it! I’m a traumatized autistic woman living in a household full of traumatized autistic people, this Happens sometimes! Meltdowns suck, give them space and let them put their headset on, stop poking at the raw nerve and let them fix their brain. They’ll apologize in an hour or two when their ears aren’t full of bees, a day or two at most.
Yeah. I rarely get really mad at the comments section here. But seriously, Dorothy hasn’t suffered shit I’m this situation. What’s gonna happen if Dorothy leaves Joyce alone on this? She starts her birth control next week? Maybe? And she lies in bed and takes lots of pain killers and sleeps? When Joyce’s request to be left alone requires everybody to sweep her room for sharps prior to leaving the room, then she can start to talk. Or when she has to sit with Joyce to make sure she eats something for the first time in 48 hours and then has to stay with her to make sure she doesn’t vomit it up before she can feel safe leaving Joyce alone instead of taking her to the hospital. THEN we can talk about how Dorothy didn’t have a real choice but to stay and help. Joyce CAN be left alone for a couple days. She will live. She has survived debilitating periods since she was like 10! Nobody decided it was an emergency until Joyce was also dealing with kidnapping, death, divorced parents, losing her faith, having a massive fight with Becky, and learning she’s maybe autistic?????? I dealt with really heavy, pretty dang painful periods until I started birth control because I was about to get MARRIED. I didn’t think the severity of my periods was weird because that’s how it was for my mom and my sisters. It was really not that big of a deal! Taking some time to emotionally prepare to get a new medication, and even GOING TO A DIFFERENT PHARMACY when the closest one is decorated with your worst fears are perfectly reasonable strategies to dealing with a new situation.
Also. To all those saying Joyce is acting like a child? I’m a foster/adopt parent. I promise you no part of Joyce’s reaction looks anything like how traumatized children behave when they’re overstimulated, in pain, or expected to do something that stretches their window of tolerance. Joyce is calm, expresses thanks for Dorothy’s efforts, and calmly sets boundaries, while expressing she still respects and appreciates Dorothy’s opinions and some of her attempts to help. My kids scream bloody murder, tell me I’m stupid, mean, they hate me, and sometimes throw things or hit me repeatedly… because I said it was time to come brush teeth before bedtime. Seriously. If you think Joyce is over the top, please don’t go anywhere near traumatized children or adults.
I get why Dorothy thought she was doing the right thing. I’m not slamming her. She has a sense that Joyce is lashing out reasonably. Maybe she even realizes she’s overstepped. She also hasn’t had any trauma training. I know I reacted badly sometimes to my friend in college with the self-harm issues because I didn’t know any better. Heck, i often respond less than ideally to my kids and I HAVE had a ton of training now. But the people bashing Joyce in the comments are WAY out of line.
People tripping over themselves to call Joyce an ungrateful brat in reaction *this* strip, of all strips, the strip where she *used her words* not only to clearly state what she needed from Dorothy, instead of emotionally lashing out in pain the way she’s done a couple of times leading up to this, but also to explicitly thank Dorothy for helping her…*that* was the bit that made me wtf at this fucking comments section again. Did y’all want a full-floor headpress accompanied by torrents of abject, tearful apologies from Joyce for being difficult during an ongoing moment of crisis? Joyce is literally trying to be the friend who thanks a friend for her help, even though that help has been painful and not entirely welcome during a very trying time.
Is Dorothy about to realize she just did what Danny did at the beginning of the series? (Also, how am I the only person mentioning this? I just searched the page for “Danny” because I was sure someone else would have made this comparison.)
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I DON’T NEED HELP
…except right now
…repeat.
I’m starting to think they actually are in a romantic relationship without realising it, and that Joyce is the needy one.
Don’t know if cute or just borderline annoyingly-clingy…
Fuck if this was going to be the result than I haft to say maybe Sarah’s approach was the better option.
Yeah, this wasn’t a fun convo but at least it’s all in the open now?
Yaaaaay
well at least she’s still amicable enough to ask for help with something less stressful (hopefully, i know art can be tough even if one enjoys it as a hobby) at the end
tho i’d still say ‘spending (more) time’ together, don’t think it’s what joyce had in mind versus more ‘fun’ stuff (though other than a deadline idk if dorothy is really missing that much but i imagine that time in your young adulthood/early 20s can feel like everything’s going by fast/busy) though wonder if she will drop the bombshell about her going all the way to yale (i mean america’s big but you could still catch a flight on the weekend or so versus yale being all the way in say, Korea)
I’m thinking maybe Dorothy is missing something Yale-related by being there today. That’s why she says, “That’s not fair for me to say to you.”
well, it seems kinda like a big priority to let becky take over this, and put yale first but at least she can reschedule with yale but hopefully they wouldn’t be too strict/think she’s a flake (though i just always saw those kinda ‘ivy league’s schools as an elitist rich white person school, even if people do get in on scholarships, i would not really care if someone graduated from a ‘good’ school but a lot of american education and healthcare seems like a scam anyways lol)
Not to bash Dorothy but she does possess her own agency. She doesn’t have to be so invested she chooses to be.
it is a people-pleasing flaw after all (though as future president i’d think she’d prolly have to make tough/unpopular decisions)
When you think you are doing the right thing, any other option doesn’t really ‘feel’ like an acceptable choice to make, and you can’t really turn ‘off’ caring, you can only learn self-control and to accept you can’t ‘forcibly’ help people against their will when they are not like, a young child.
Agreed. Dorothy bothers me a lot for this. It’s the whole martyr mentality. Ooh I do so much for you and you don’t show any gratitude. But Joyce didn’t ask her to do this (I do see though she does ask for other things and it would be shitty to be ungrateful for those). But this idea that I’m going to do something that you’re telling me that you don’t want me to do and then be mad at you when you aren’t grateful for it is not a healthy mentality.
I mean, Dorothy outright admits and says in explicit terms that it’s unfair behavior. Feels like that’s not being acknowledged. Recognizing and stopping don’t matter, all that matters is the initial, unfinished start to rudeness.
Honestly I don’t really care about Joyce’s feelings on this. I know it’s a bad stereotype for women but she is going through a rather horrible period so she’s gonna be pretty grouchy. My concern is that Dorothy doesn’t seem to enjoy mothering Joyce all the time. She’s showing frustration and she doesn’t have to put herself through that. She has her own agency here. Taking a step back could be good for her too.
What is Dorothy missing? Do we know?
I’m going to say it’s probably something related to Yale.
Studying in general, possibly, she’s been spending a lot of time on Joyce lately.
Yeah, I remembered her acceptance letter. I thought that was for next year?
There’s 0 chance this is just studying from the way she phrased it. Also betting Yale… which says a lot.
(meant as a reply to OP)
Either studying, a class, or work to do. I don’t think this particular event is directly related to her Yale status. However, it might still be a background thought.
Gonna bet Yale.
While Willis may make it something important and timely that is Yale related, I don’t see how that is realistic. She was already accepted, so it’s not like they would want to interview her – if they did, it would be before, not after. And she wouldn’t be going until fall, which is 6 months from now in-universe, so I can’t think of anything important that would be needed at this point. She might need to accept the offer, but that’s a letter (or more likely these days, an email).
Maybe it’s Accepted Students Day (an event similar to orientation but before students actually accept admission)? Or a campus tour since she probably didn’t go on one before applying?
Can’t really be anything like that – she would have had to fly out. Plan in advance. Not something skipped on a moment’s notice.
She’s missing that one tooth way back in the back, in the left-bottom section, the one that does all the rearmost chewing. She had to have it taken out when she was 13 because some other kid knocked her over with their bike and the handlebar damaged the tooth too much to keep. But only that specific tooth.
you asked
Dealing with Joyce has completely destroyed her schedule for the last two days, now she has to redo the entire monthly schedule.
reasonable parting, friendship can still be salvaged I guess
interesting liz’s name being mentioned, maybe she’ll show back up and joyce will bond /their/ friendship a bit more though not sure if she’d do anything irrational/be ‘influenced’ by liz to make some bad choices or so
You are aware of the name of comic your reading?
* you’re
I.N.C.S.O.A.
Google is not being helpful at all. Is it “I never call someone Arnold”?
It’s Not Called Smarting Of Age =P
Normally, this would barely even register as a friendship ending conversation.
But it’s Anxiety Joyce. So who knows.
Joyce used her words to articulate her exact need in this moment in time! I’m proud of her. I cannot fault her for lashing out the way she’s been doing this morning, but this is a better and more effective way to get what she needs. (Well. From Dorothy, anyway.)
I think it’s telling that Dorothy is having trouble reconciling “Joyce is always begging me to spend time with her” with “Joyce is explicitly asking for space to deal with an emotionally fraught issue in her own way”. Joyce likes Dorothy enormously and enjoys socializing with her for the sake of socializing with her. Dorothy trying to “fix” Joyce is probably the aspect of their friendship Joyce appreciates the *least*, although I will grant that she doesn’t put up much resistance to it for the most part, for a bunch of complicated reasons that include Dorothy representing pretty much everything about the “normal” secular world that Joyce knows she’s ignorant about, which makes her a kind of knowledge authority figure to Joyce, and we know how Joyce feels about authority figures!
But I think to Dorothy, being Supportive Helper Mom Who Solves Your Problems is synonymous with friendship, and she literally does not get that Joyce would want to spend time with her for other reasons, like relaxing and doing fun things together—that Joyce values her company for things besides what Dorothy can do to Improve Joyce’s Life.
Your last paragraph hit my thoughts dead on! To Dorothy, this is quality hanging out. She’s with Joyce. They are in the same area, even talking! And even better, they’re solving an issue while doing so. Two birds, one stone, etc, etc. We’ve seen this during the dorm party arc when Dorothy was writing papers even while hanging out at a party.
I hope those two can realize that they want vastly different things when it comes to friendship and can move forward in a healthier way. Joyce has been solidly manic lately (with reasons, but still) and Dorothy has been pouring a lot of herself into it.
Let’s face it, Joyce doesn’t actually like Dorothy. Dorothy is a hard-working, conscious nerd who will drop anything for her friends. But Joyce wants to bullshit with a chronic liar, get high, and play video games instead. And try to bang Joe just like Liz too, haha. She doesn’t want to have intellectual conversations about the history and social impacts of atheism with Dorothy, she wants to curse god and rail against her abusive cult with Liz. I’m sad for Dorothy but she needs to stay far away from Joyce and avoid all contact. She can’t stop caring and the only way to stop mothering Joyce is to ghost her. Joyce is telling her that’s what she needs. That is going to be hard if Joyce continues to be magnetically attracted to Dorothy. Just so sad. This is the rudest, most painful friend break up.
Oh I thought this was a joke post at first. Well. I’ll be way over there, reading the actual comic strip.
Unless that was an actual joke post, in which case I apologize. I’m sorry, this comments section’s tendency to Littlefinger everything (“‘I ask myself, what is the worst possible reason someone could have for doing what they’re doing,’ and then I go BUGNUT WILD in creating elaborate logic chains based on that assumption and forget to reality-check myself”) has eroded my ability to distinguish actual jokes from some of the weird things people say here sometimes.
Oops. Should have scrolled down and read the other stuff. Welp!
All of this, 100%
Mhm! Joyce BEGS Dorothy to hang out with her, but that’s not the same thing as moming her…
Dorothy, her begging to spend time with you in the past does not mean that she will always want to spend time with you
Joyce, its helpful to say exactly what you need instead of general griping
THIS
“yes i totally wanna go through tedious and self conscious trials while having menstrual pain over having a fun lunch together”
though at least joyce is on a college campus rather than being completely isolated from people, even if she does need space, it’s good that she’s within distance to reach out to people
This is very important as a distinction. Dorothy taking Joyce’s interest in spending social/recreational time with her equating to “any time is good time” is very indicative of their obvious differing perspectives and social styles. It’s made all the worse when the majority of the time they spend together is devoted to things that make Joyce uncomfortable or have stakes instead of just a normal lunch or board game night or something. I would have a hard time maintaining a friendship if the only time my friend wanted to spend time together was in that context. That said, Dorothy is a very driven individual, and doesn’t seem to really HAVE downtime in her eyes, just opportunities to better/further her life and career. Her idea of socializing is taking advantage of those opportunities together. It’s neither person’s fault that there’s a misalignment, though it’s both of their faults they’re not addressing that and just letting it fester.
I think Joyce wants to interact with dorothy as a equal but at the same time has become too comfortable relying on her taking charge of things. Dorothy for her part doesn’t quite understand the difference between being a leader to her friends and being a mom and its causing strain on their friendship because she has set herself up as the person who takes care of joyce to an unhealthy degree..
+1 to all of this.
Yep.
MHM
Would people be happier with Dorothy if she were a fair weather friend who just ignored when Joyce needs help? Even Billie thought that was shitty, she’s the one who started the whole “get Joyce the medication she needs” ordeal. Remember Dorothy didn’t want to interfere before Billie came and yelled at her for being a bad friend. Maybe Dorothy should have just called Billie up to make her get and take the medication.
…is it Yale? Did Dorothy miss a talk with Yale for this?
Come on Joyce! Dorothy isn’t your secretary. Though if you play your cards right one day you could be one of hers.
Secretary of Keeping it Real?
Dorothy is looking tired, all the stress from classes and now handling Joyce’s sudden attitude is wearing her out. I understand why they’re both upset to some degree, but I can’t figure out why they’re having such a problem over taking birtch control meds.
Is this really that big of a deal?
I mean if they are taking herbicides….
Get it cause birch control – like the the shrub.
I’m sorry.
That was both the funniest and the best palm to forehead moment I’ve had in a long time, so thank you.
I only now realize that I mispelled “birth,” whoops.
hehe
that said birch isn’t really a shrub, it’s a tree but ok =)
good (atrocious) pun
i mean, it also kind of looks Kyrik had written, b*tch control meds, which, i don’t know what joke to make about that, but, assume i’m being really funny? please
Yes. It really is that big of a deal.
Nah, it needn’t be, they (mainly Joyce) are just making a meal of it. Because, y’know, see the title of the strip etc etc
I think Dorothy might view things in terms of solvable problems- that you can organize your way out of pretty much everything. Joyce’s life is, apparently, going to be one thing after another, basically forever, and while you’re totally right that Dorothy is exhausted trying to help, Joyce might be thinking that she isn’t being seen by people she knows as a person with volition but a project. And that’s its own kind of exhausting. On the other hand, I don’t see Joyce taking much interest in her friends’ issues on anything like the level they do hers, so there’s more than one way to look at it.
Yeah, even when Dorothy was talking yesterday Joyce completely ignored what she was saying- basically pointing out Joyce was being borderline insulting- and kept steamrollering on with her nutty talk.
Joyce is an absolute mess. if she wants to pretend like Liz that she is chill so her friends learn that she isn’t a fundie anymore, she needs to get it together. I thought Joyce freaking out and having fundie PTSD was adorable but then lashing out at your best friend, who has been putting up with your freak-outs and listening to you process your de-conditioning, is just really gross. Just so sad for Dorothy. She’s going to spend the rest of the semester locked in a study room at the library with her phone in Focus Mode.
Although maybe Joyce saying out loud that Liz is right means it’s time to transfer to a new school where she can pretend to be normal, haha, good luck with that. Maybe transfer to a new dorm like Billie and pretend to be a totally different person and snub all your old friends.
How do people live with mindsets this fucking bleak?
“Just stop having problems, I don’t get what’s so hard about that”
Pain hurts. Not being in pain and unable to function normally is a big deal.
Oh so we’re being extra brooding today? Ok then.
not saying i condone the behavior but if i had joyce’s issues i’d proll ybe a lot more whiny myself lol
I’m glad they’re at least both voicing their hangups right now. That’s something they both really needed to do.
Also, the last panel got me, that’s definitely getting things back on track for the two. Not an entirely unreasonable ask from Joyce given Dorothy suggested it in the first place, though still funny for Joyce to ask after all of this.
Indeed, this is about how such incidents run. It’s only been an hour or so. Dorothy’s “my friend is hurting and I must help” is being overcome by the mounting evidence that “I’ve helped as much as I can.” Joyce’s “make everything go away!” is being tamped down by the realization that “Dorothy isn’t understanding me, I need to explain.” And it’s working. They’re starting to communicate again. They’ll be okay again by the next day. (Come October, we’ll see.)
The mood graphs are weak today, despite the whole “craving Dorothy” being to the max when she was eager to jog with her.
Yeah, scout the professors and their ratings too, that’s always crucial in enlisting in classes
*nod nod* definitely gonna be the same class as Malaya and Mary
cos that’s funner
Poor Dorothy!
GOOD! GOOD FOR YOU JOYCE!
verbalize those boundaries! and make sure they’re respected!
COSIGNED
She didn’t set boundaries. She’s acting like the spoiled brat she always was. “No mom! I want to do it myself!” *proceeds to give mom instructions instead of doing it herself like she just claimed she wanted * Joyce is using her friends without ANY consideration for how it impacts them, and treats them like shit when they try to make her follow through after they’ve done the actual work.
Agreed. I really don’t get Joyce’s attitude here. I’ve BEEN the person that needed help to get basic life necessities taken care of, and I was SO GRATEFUL for the help. Joyce is spitting on it but without Dorothy she wouldn’t have gotten her meds and she would’ve continued to be in pain. And to go back and ask for another favor afterwards?! I truly do not get what is going through her head.
Re: yesterday’s comment section, Joyce seems like she’s in Autistic burnout/overload. There’s been a lot going on that takes a big toll (conflict with friends, trauma, drs etc) plus a bad period (which ramps everything up by 100) and the result is emotional dysregulation, including outbursts, overstimulation and sensory sensitivity, greater difficulty with change, and loss of skills/capacities that are needed for day-to-day living, including executive functioning skills.
And the ONLY way to recover is to remove yourself from the situation, to be alone, to stop trying to “do” and just focus on comfort and safety.
Current Joyce is a perfect example of what burnout looks like and how it affects functioning. Willis is also really effectively showing how it affects those around her without resorting to “person good/person bad”.
As much as Dorothy’s intentions are good, and the overall result will be good for Joyce to be on medication, this kind of help isn’t what Joyce needs *right now*, as she’s been saying for the past week or however long. Long term, meds good, but immediately, being crowded and prodded and pushed to go into sensory hell and do new scary things could make things so much worse.
I often need help to manage things like appointments or any online/scheduling type tasks, and when I’m overloaded I need help with more mundane things like cooking and cleaning. It’s never helpful when someone pushes their “help” onto me. It’s infantilising and aggravating, and a lot of time it makes me feel worse by both being being an intrusion in my space and by making me so aware of all the things I need to do but can’t right now.
When I’m burnt out or getting there, I will react a lot like Joyce but with more tears then feel awful about it later because I don’t have as much control over my actions or emotions as I do when I’m well. If I’m pushed, or if I push myself to work through it then I lose ALL control and go into meltdown or shutdown (meltdown being the outward explosion of emotion, shutdown being an inward implosion). It takes much longer to recover from that than if I hit the brakes beforehand.
What always gets me about some of these comments — and in general — is how people who are just like Joyce can so often be unsympathetic to other people who are also just like Joyce. As someone who’s also neurodivergent and has often been on the receiving end of Dorothy and Sarah’s kind of “care” I’m always blown away by how other neurodivergent people act like I need to just suck it up.
More and more I’m coming to think most people see pain — physical, emotional, mental — as a moral failing, even if they don’t actually word it as such.
That’s often my experience, too. When we see that pain in others, it’s only ever through their external behaviours, and sometimes those behaviours get in the way of people empathising, especially when mixed in with a lot of “discourse” that gets in the head and clouds it (like around people being “toxic” and manipulative).
That’s all true and I think the burnout is a good way to look at it, but despite Willis trying to avoid “person good/person bad” that’s how a lot of people are taking it. Either throwing all the blame on Joyce or on her friends for not handling it right.
The boundaries around this in terms of how to help and how to manage need to be worked out and negotiated. Dorothy’s not doing a great job of it, but she’s making it up as she’s going along. And Joyce isn’t being exactly reasonable about it – as we see in that last panel: falling back on relying on Dorothy to do stuff for her right after getting upset about how she was trying to help.
This is kind of why I really like this comic and how W’s writing has evolved. They are just making it up as the go along and messing up and figuring it out, because they’re kids living alone for the first time and going through hell to boot.
I do also get why we all get frustrated and hold the characters to higher standards, like, our brains are hardwired to make judgements based on past experiences, it takes so long for anything to be resolved irl, and a lot of us have outgrown the experiences that the characters are going through so we have more after-sight (or whatever that word is).
Being autistic doesn’t mean you are a jerk. She isn’t a four-year-old having a melt-down, Joyce is an adult. It’s her choice to lash out in this very personal, hurtful way instead of just saying thanks.
For assistance that she actively doesn’t want? For being dragged out, against her will, to something she’s actively afraid of, for medicine that– as they said the first week is a placebo– She Doesn’t Fucking Need Right This Second? While she’s in pain?
It’s not just Joyce behaving badly here, and Dorothy isn’t owed unconditional gratitude for so Generously helping Joyce when she doesn’t want to be helped.
Frankly, Joyce is right. They’re all up in her butthole. And maybe she’s not reacting the most maturely about it, but even adults have meltdowns, actually, particularly adults on the edge of burnout that were never taught how to deal with melt-downs when they WERE four years old.
And Dorothy knows that. And yes, Dorothy knows that she’s doing what is best for Joyce right now, but she also knows that it Fucking Grates to be a grown ass woman being HANDLED by your friends, because no one wants to treat you as a grown ass woman.
Growing up is hard, and no one understands, apparently, that it doesn’t magically stop the moment you turn eighteen.
jsyk, a meltdown isnt a tantrum. It’s an extreme, uncontrollable reaction to intense stimuli and stress. It’s painful and scary and way worse than panic attacks (which you have some control over and will generally abate in 20 minutes). It’s like being trapped inside an overheating engine watching a crash involving everyone around you and completely unable to help or even talk them through it.
And yes, being Autistic means that sometimes you are unable to check your emotional reactions when you are overwhelmed because that is what an Autistic brain is like. It sucks. It really, really sucks, and a lot of the time you hate yourself for it. It happens most with burnout, as I said, and Joyce is an excellent portrayal of what that looks like.
God, I hate my meltdowns, ESPECIALLY when I’m having them. I’m being a bongo! I know I’m being a bongo! I am actively watching myself say things I don’t mean and don’t want to say! I want to scream and cry and I can’t even say why it’s all just Too Fucking Much and it needs to Stop Right Now, Thank You! Every single thought is in all caps with an exclamation mark! Everyone is trying to make me use my words and my words aren’t working and why won’t they just leave me alone! Make them go away!
It’s HELL. I hate it.
Exactly! For me it can be physically painful because everything is so bright and anything touching me feels like it burns. It’s the touch-equivalent of the sound feedback makes when a microphone is near a speaker. I made cards for my phone and wallet with instructions in case it happens in public which basically say what it is, to call my sister, not paramedics, use yes and no questions if they need to ask, and park my ass in the nearest dark closet until I have at least fine motor functions back online.
I’m feeling for Joyce here. What she needs the most right now is time alone to process, and then after that, someone to listen to her. Not have a conversation like Dorothy, just someone to rant to who’ll just nod and go, “yeah, that sucks.”
My understanding of it is she’s picking up birth control pills right now right? Was there any indication they’re giving her pain killers too? Because birth control pills may help her be in less pain for her next period, but it isn’t like they’ll do anything now. I agree that she needs to start taking them now since that’s usually the instruction, take them when your next period starts, but it isn’t like they will help her yet. Unless I missed the part where they said there were more?
Yeah, uh, that’s a good point
see the thing about getting favors done when you don’t ask for them and in fact specifically didn’t want them is like having someone shoving cake in your face, really smearing it in your face and then screaming “WHY AREN’T YOU GRATEFUL FOR THIS?”
ok, I might be a bit hyperbolic with that example, but I hope it gets the message across. Having good intentions does mean that the actions are good. Just because Dorothy wants to help Joyce doesn’t mean forcing it is healthy or actually helpful
Have you ever seen Crazy Ex-Girlfriend? Because god this number has been going through my mind a lot lately: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtKtmXzeyqs
SAY IT! SAY IT OR I’LL GUT YOU LIKE A FISH
EXACTLY, thank God. People keep putting it on Dorothy- “she’s the mom friend, she doesn’t know how NOT to take charge of people” etc etc… but what’s the alternative, here? Joyce prior to getting this sorted is not viable, for herself or others. I would say Dorothy needs to create some healthy distance from Joyce, though.
“I need space to deal with this myself” reads to you as a spoiled brat?
I give up.
I think it’s combining that with “And can you do this for me” that gets that reaction.
I do not think that is what is getting that reaction, even if vast swaths of people who claim to like this comic strip have no apparent sense of humor at all.
At this point, giving up is probably the safe option. People are being incredibly silly about this, today.
I’m fuckin OUT
Yeah, this is incredibly ableist and the fact people agreed with you is conerning
please explain to me how “I would like to be alone and have some space right now” is not setting a boundary. Please, I really would like to hear this
What does Joyce mean by “maybe Liz had the right idea”?
other than mocking religion together, liz mentioned cutting ppl outta her life (though not as if she’s just gonna outright be an atheist herself and wanting ppl to know she misses church/hiding some aspects of her personality) , though i can’t imagine joyce really cutting dorothy off permanently
Oh, so only a temporary cutting-off? Lucky Dorothy, to be allowed back into the sacred embrace of Joyce’s one-way friendships. She should run to Yale and never look back, for God’s sake.
you know, Dorothy IS allowed to stop (s)mothering Joyce, right? She could say “actually fuck this, you’re on your own” and be within her right. You know that right? She’s not Joyce’s legal guardian or anything
She feels obligated to help Joyce because Joyce evidently has neither the wherewithal to do much of anything herself nor anyone else who will help her. You know that, right?
She shouldn’t. Joyce can fuck up on her own and deal with it. It might be good for her.
I took that to mean “literally running away from school and hanging out somewhere else so I don’t have to see or interact with my social group that’s stressing me out very badly with their expectations of me sounds real appealing just now”.
Maybe she should go hang out with Jocelyne for a weekend! And I’m totally not saying that just because I love seeing them interact and it’s been awhile.
I like that better than Joyce switching dorms to pretend to be different person like Billie, and Dorothy locking herself in the library and blocking Joyce to avoid her two-faced drama.
This is good. Dorothy has been a bit too smothering as of late, and looking up life drawing classes for Joyce would be the best way to help her while giving her the space she wants.
actually the best thing to do is to stop helping her until she’s being a friend again. anyone who repeatedly asks for help from people moments after telling them as rudely as possible to go away and leave them alone should expect to start hearing a No or two.
Good one.
Maybe the best thing to do is to arrange to research that *together*, *a little later*, and make Joyce do the actual research. Teach a woman to fish, and she’ll eat for a lifetime….
Judging from the last panel Joyce has developed learned helplessness on her friends (or rather transferred it from her upbringing). Looking up drawing classes is something Joyce should be able to do by herself and Dorothy shouldn’t be doing it for her. Dorothy needs to reevaluate how she interacts with Joyce and her other friends because now shes made herself too much of a mom which while tempting isn’t doing Joyce or herself any favors in the long run.
Joyce and Dorothy are communicating and Joyce is clearly communicating what would be helpful and what she can’t deal with right now in her current state. This is what adulting looks like.
… Not to the vast majority of people, no, it really doesn’t. Still, they are mere undergraduates.
And also probably Autistic. I think it’s good for them to be talking about what sort of help would *actually* help right now, and if looking up classes helps, then cool. Personally, the area I need the most support in is around scheduling/appointments/forms-type thing. It’s easier for me to learn to repair an engine than apply for classes. My brain’s wiring just isn’t set up for it.
Can you describe what difficulties you have with scheduling/appointments/forms?
I’m both ADHD and Autistic, so there’s a lot exectutive dysfunction (like attention, working memory, planning). With forms I have difficulty holding information in my head short-term, so I have to reread pages at a time. I often have trouble understanding what is being asked of me (this also goes for assignments) so I need to seek a lot of clarification. I also can’t estimate for shit. Can’t estimate time, cost, space, risk, nada so there’s a lot of questions or factors that I can’t account for when I’m planning as a result. Working memory plus time management means that I struggle to remember/plan appointments or any kind of scheduling. I’ve had the same classes for 6 weeks now and still need to check when they’re on before making additional plans. It’s also impossible to estimate whether I am going to be okay enough to follow through, so setting long-term plans gives a lot of anxiety. Because those sorts of tasks rely on executive functioning skills that I lack, it takes a LOT of effort for me where it takes someones else relatively little. Plus there’s a lot of little mistakes that can be made made and they tend to have big consequences, like I spend upwards of $1000 in missed appointments a year, once misunderstood a question about reporting income and lost more than $2000 in pay, and royally screwed up my class schedule so I’ll be at uni for 2 extra years.
Being Autistic, my general “functioning” fluctuates. When I’m well I have no issues with “adulting”. When I’m not well I can’t remember more than one task at a time (eg I can’t go get my phone AND my charger from another room), I struggle reading (I just see the individual letters and have to mentally put them together), my fine-motor skills deteriorate so my writing looks like a preschooler’s, and my capacity to focus is murdered.
I find university and government websites to be particularly frustrating to deal with. There’re not designed in a particularly ND friendly way and can be very confusing. Unfortunately I’m studying social work and my assessment is all about the very disability insurance scheme I’ve been fighting to access for years.
This is what the Start of adulting looks like.
The fact is, they’re still young. They’re barely adults, and most of them come from childhoods that didn’t adequately equip them with the skills they need. No one here is being a perfect friend to each other– and that’s realistic. That’s life.
Sometimes we hurt each other. Sometimes we lash out. Sometimes we fuck up. Two steps forward, one step back, from our first baby steps until we’re one foot in the grave.
Joyce needs to learn to take care of things herself. Joyce wants to learn to take care of things herself. Joyce is afraid of learning to take care of things herself. No one will give Joyce the chance to Try to take care of things for herself. Not maliciously, not unkindly; they are trying to do what they think is right.
They’re grating against each other right now, and it happens. That’s part of life. And part of maintaining friendships as adults is accepting and making apologies, after times like this.
Shit’s hard. They’re doing their best.
Yep. She’s been infantalized and so used to others just doing that she is getting confused over it to an extent. Been there
Joyce you were so close until that last panel. You can use a search engine. You should be in Amber’s beginner computer class from her first semester if not.
I’ll send you a list. I’ll want you to print it out. Then I’ll need you to fold it until it’s all corners. Then stick it.
“until it’s all corners”…?
how can it be all corners, corners need some surface to be corners to, this is braining my brain aaah
It’s a fractal thing.
This is the answer I want Dorothy to make, haha. Stick up for yourself girl! She’s only here with Joyce because she believed it when Billie accused her of being a bad friend.
Joyce, Joyce you sweet summer child…
She gave up HARVARD for you! Period be damned, she is a bad friend!
It’s just a school.
And one who’s culture is just about thoroughly rooted in elitism, to say the least.
I agree, but it (yale) is/was her dream so it still would count as giving it up (if indeed she has)
Like hell it is.
So you admit that Harvard isn’t a school.
No, I’m referencing “Not just a toy store” from Shortpacked.
Was that the slogan for the store or something? Sorry, it’s not ringing a bell and now I’ve ruined your reference by not getting it.
It’s ok. I likely goofed the reference anyway.
This whole interaction is just too precious
It’s yale, not harvard, and I don’t think we know that she actually said no to it (rather than it being a invitation for her second year)
If Dorothy did give up yale (and we don’t know that she did) that does not indenture Joyce to her. Like, for one thing I honestly think Joyce doesn’t know (we haven’t seen Dorothy tell anyone) and for two, Joyce didn’t ask Dorothy to give up on her desire to go to Yale.
Someone giving up a thing without being asked to do so doesn’t put you under any obligation to rearrange your plans/mood/time. And while most people probably would because they love their friend, Joyce is not psychic and can’t know what she doesn’t know.
Joyce isn’t being a Bad Friend. She’s being Tired, Overwhelmed, and In Pain. Asking for space is not some shitty thing that is done TO a person, it’s a boundary for Dorothy to respect (which she seems keen to!)
Sure, sure, but she’s also being Tiring, Overwhelming, and A Pain, with no consideration for Dorothy or anyone else, like she has been ever since turning away from religion. Feeling bad doesn’t excuse shittiness.
“Feeling bad” is seriously minimizing her situation. She has trauma she’s working through, debilitating physical pain, and likely is some flavour of neurodivergent which can create some unfortunate issues with being overwhelmed.
Also, to a certain degree I do think “feeling bad” excuses some shittiness. Joyce is human, sometimes when humans are in pain (emotional or physical) their patience is lower and they can’t handle everything they normally can without being abrasive. It’s just life.
Also, no one is forcing Dorothy to be there. If she’s Tired, Overwhelmed, and finding Joyce to be A Pain then she can take a break the same way Joyce is.
this, this, this. ^what Nova said
If Joyce “attitude” soooooo bad, then Dorothy can just fucking walk away, do her own thing for a while, come back IF and when they both want to.
It’s kinda breaking my brain that Joyce is explicitly asking for this, but you (person with the – username) is asking as if Joyce is being a horrible burden on poor little Dorothy.
Literally all Dorothy had to do to not be in this scenario was… choose not to be and do something else instead. So clearly she at least cares about Joyce enough to not take the erratic behavior personally, which she explicitly stated she’s deliberately not doing out of sympathy for Joyce’s apparently horrendous pain. I dunno, there’s a weird aftertaste to the “Joyce is a wretched toddler” remarks, when this isn’t even that big of an issue in-comic.
periods be damned! from now on we only use exclamation marks!
The Marvel Comics style!
Exclamation marks are normal! When you want emphasis use more than one!!
For extra banana bonkers statements throw in a question mark or two?!!!?!
Hey everyone, it’s me, Mr D.
You may have noticed I haven’t been commenting or snarking around as much as I used to these past couple of weeks!
Well, I moved to europe! That, however, means I am usually not up yet by the time the strip updates, so any of you who likes seeing me around? I’ll likely be around the middle of the comment section from now on, if not the bottom.
Is it one of the cool parts of Europe, at least?
It is an extremely hot part of europe.
Dorothy. Dorothy WHAT DID YOU MISS TODAY OMG
She missed her chance to smooch Joyce in public.
Later: she smooches Joyce in private
it happens off-panel
they agree to pretend like it never happened
*headcannon fired off*
NO ONE CAN PROVE OTHERWISE
NOT EVEN WILLIS
I AM A GOD
I don’t know if I know how to feel about this update.
Dorothy cancelled on her Hinge date to be with Joyce.
She wasn’t planning to be all up in Joyce‘s butthole today,
Assuming Hinge is another one of those single-word-named, “let’s all set up casual hookups until bots and scammers inevitably flood the app” type services?
supposedly. i’ve never used it but it is the entirety of the rage
What I wanna know is, what do all these apps offer to stand out, aside from not already being full of the aforementioned bots? I feel like I hear about a new one every year or two, so they must not be very good.
so, allegedly, Hinge is supposed to be less about swiping left and right in an epic trance of obscene consumerism and more about finding true lurv to the point where they market themselves as the app whose goal is to be deleted.
but hey, ultimately, if you’re not into dating apps, it’s probably, like, just another dating app for you to not be into.
i’ve only tried okcupid once, hooked up with one person, freaked the fuck out, told them its not them its me, torched my profile and decided i was too broken to ever try casual dating ever again, so i’m not any sort of expert
Maybe this is pessimistic of me, but I still have doubts that anyone’s gonna find their True Love on a dating app. I know a couple people who use ’em, but all anyone ever seems to have is bad stories about their results, mixed with an occasional “Yeah, we fucked and that was sort of it.” Not being judgemental, of course, it’s just one of those things I don’t Get.
Squinting as hard as I can but that emoji isn’t clearing up any. Is it a bowl of pasta?
unicode translation:
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So hey, this is days late and probably dollars short, but what the hey.
I was single for a very, very long time before I decided to start using a dating app. And I tried Hinge because, as was said, it was apparently the thing to use. And after just a few weeks, I met someone and we’ve been seeing each other since the beginning of July. We’re not “hooking up”, but rather dating as I understand it. Hinge has been successfully deleted from my phone, as they advertised. A friend of mine, as I recall, met his current girlfriend of more than a year on Hinge (we only met at his father’s funeral and all got *really* tanked afterwards, so it’s a bit muddled).
So yeah, Hinge worked for me.
Well… It’s a start. I just gotta keep reminding myself that they’re really very young.
Youth isn’t an excuse for war crimes.
You know, Dorothy, nobody actually forced you to seize control of Joyce’s life. So yeah, you’re right that blurting out the fact you in fact have other things to do isn’t fair to Joyce. She does need help, and is asking for it, but maybe you should listen to her and not force it on her in ways she told you she is uncomfortable with just because you cannot wait for a few days so at least her period is over and she had time to digest this and the autism thing and she’s in a better state.
Thisthisthis all of this.
OK, so, how SHOULD Dorothy have dealt with this exact situation? I’m intrigued. Kid gloves don’t work with Joyce.
exactly what Akane said, wait a few days so joyce has time to process. I’m not super defending joyce here because she is admittedly being a bit of a brat, but clearly she’s in no place to deal with all these big changes Right Now This Exact Second. even if she was able to start her new birth control immediately without the placebos, it probably wouldn’t start having a noticeable effect until after this period is over anyway, so there really is no need to rush out and get it
Make Billie get the medication and make Joyce take it. Everyone was fine letting Joyce be Joyce until Head Cheerleader came and took charge.
I actually agree. Everyone’s mad that Joyce is pissy about being dragged out in pain today, but she didn’t fucking ask for this, Billie demanded that Dorothy do it.
Billie needs to make up her fucking mind about whether she’s here or not.
Not have dragged Joyce into the pharmacy on the day Joyce was in great physical pain is a great first step.
Dorothy should shoot Joyce in the face with a gun, several times. Is that what you want somebody to say?
Yes. Yes that is EXACTLY it, wonderfully perspicacious of you there buddy. Is that what you want me to say?
The things we do for those we love
Joyce feels entitled to me here.
She is, massively. The kicker is the “Liz was right” snarky comment, which is basically out of line. I usually roll my eyes a bit over Dorothy being a martyr, but she might actually be some kind of saint.
don’t worry it’s not just you
That word gets thrown around a lot, these days.
“Words used when people using them deem them appropriate”- shocking development; more to come in our news bulletin at 9
dear god how
Wait never mind. I don’t care.
Dude Joyce, you can find your own life drawing classes. WTH?
C’mon Dorothy, set some boundaries!
*exasperated sigh*
Dorothy’s the one that recommended those classes in the first place. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask her to look up something she herself suggested personally.
… It’s unreasonable enough given the exact circumstances, it seems like. Joyce could have just asked her later, when they hadn’t literally JUST had a slightly fraught interaction. Unless this is Joyce’s “smoothing it over” play, which, hey, congrats, Dorothy’s a soft touch and she got what she wants. Good for her.
K.
Uh, yeah, right..? “K” right back at ya fella
It /does/ feel like a fumbled ‘smooth it over’ play. Very ‘I know I’m fucking up and I know I’m being irritating, here is me showing interest in something you recommended to me and asking for more information about it so you know that your advice is important to me’ vibes.
I was happy to note (to myself) that Dorothy’s last expression has narrowed eyes (kind of like an eye-roll without actually being one) and not the kind that one would have if she actually appreciated being asked to do more work (when she just said she was busy). It’s not actually about control for Dorothy—she would be happier if Joyce didn’t need her because she actually cares about Joyce and has the personality of a fixer who hasn’t learned how to protect herself. (I have been there, one of my favorite bloggers is just coming out of this.)
But I do wonder if Carole liked that kind of gesture. I could totally see Joyce’s last thing as being a normal response with an overbearing mom who doesn’t actually want an independent kid. So Joyce’s intentions are to appease but Dorothy isn’t a controlling SAHM with nothing but free time.
And to add— I continue to be so impressed with these Joyce storylines. They really are realistic and the facial expressions are so fantastic that you can actually analyze Dorothy’s expressions and know how she’s feeling. The strips have always been good but the Liz storyline really seemed to take everything to a new level, I feel like.
They’re not Dorothy’s life drawing classes. Do you also expect Dorothy to take them after she looks them up if Joyce asks her to? Because she suggested it as potentially helpful to Joyce?
Dorothy literally just said she was busy.
I don’t “expect” anything. What are you even on about with this slippery slope line of thought?
Like, your weird-ass fantasy scenario in which I’ve suddenly gone completely braindead and decided that “looking up something you yourself suggested” somehow means “sign yourself up for and attend an extra class”, there’s no level on which I can engage this in a meaningful way. What the fuck are you talking about? What the flying fuck is anybody fucking talking about today?
“Suddenly”? Nah.
There are no teachers. There are no classes. There is only drama. Everyone under 40 is a minor. You only think you left home.
Sometimes I wonder if people reading this know that this is a comic strip and the characters are meant to be doofy caricatures primed for panel-four-punchlines more than they’re meant to be real people
The Internet is Serious Business.
No one has ever said anything in jest
If they’re not meant to be real people then why did Willis make them so realistic?
“Realistic” is doing a LOT of heavy lifting here
I see this sentiment all over the place. Are YOU for real? Comics are a form of literature that often deals with very heavy stuff, leavened with levity. It’s so weird to think of dishing on people who discuss them seriously. There’s no need to append “of course these characters are fictional,” everyone knows that.
Also many of the characters in DOA are reflective of actual experiences.
None of that disputes the fact that the characters are meant to have exaggerated and intentionally quirky personalities before they’re meant to be earnest reflections of real life. I’m aware that Joyce is based off of the author’s own experience but that doesn’t mean she can’t be overblown for comedic effect and a self-deprecating jab
I like how your comment itself has now become Serious Business in the replies.
Yes, we know. The hint was that they’re cartoons.
Some people enjoy talking about fictional characters as if their relationships and the way they handle those relationships matters. It’s how we process and enjoy the comic.
Others like trying to dunk on strangers talking about a comic in the comments section of that comic.
Whatever works for you!
It’s… not really working for him, let’s be honest; like nine people have dressed him down already
Nothing like dumping all over someones help and then asking for more of it.
I’m starting to realize Dorothy’s Maternal Vulture habits migjt unhealthy for… Dorothy?
Like, we saw this during when she stretched herself too thin while dating Walky, but Dorothy has a bad habit of doing her Problem Solver thing the the point of mental and emotional exhaustion. And we see that here, where she skipped something significant to help Joyce with birth control medication thar honestly probably could have waited a day, two days, even a few hours because Joyce Had a Problem That Needed Fixing (nevermind how Joyce doesn’t want fixing right now).
Not only would it be more helpful to Joyce and their friendship if Dorothy gave her space, but it would also be healthier for Dorothy to realize that she can’t and shouldn’t hold herself responsible for everyone’s needs. Part of leadership is learning when to delegate and when to prioritize, after all.
Girl’s lucky she’s so blonde ’cause she’s gonna end up with stress grays before she graduates at this rate.
Yes to all this! If Dorothy is feeling stressed and stretched by all this…actually backing off and giving Joyce more space to do this by herself or with other people’s help was always an option! In fact, she was perfectly fine NOT helping Joyce deal with her terrible periods (because she thought it would be a real pain and Joyce would be difficult about it) until *Jennifer* stepped in to help Joyce (and actually got positive results). At which point Dorothy *immediately* tried to get heavily involved with it, because Dorothy has a self-image rooted in Being The Helping Friend, and Jennifer (who also has a self-image rooted in being A Fixer) was competition. There’s more going on here than Dorothy being endlessly selfless with an ungrateful, undeserving Joyce.
Not quite to your point, but looking back at that scene in light of commentary since then: Damn Jennifer was being toxic there. Sure, she might have been more successful and her approach to handling Joyce might be a better one, but it’s still handling Joyce.
She’s subtler to Joyce, but she opens to Dorothy and Becky with “Why aren’t any of you solving this?” and “I figured in my absence, between the two of you, you could reasonably take care of her.” She’s being just as infantilizing to Joyce, in that she’s decided she knows better and that Joyce needs taking care of, she just was a little less obvious about it to her face.
Which is good, but she’s also had less chances to do it and have it blow up. And she left Dorothy and Becky to handle the follow up.
I’m. Not sure I agree?
To Billie, a friend group takes care of /each other/. It’s not infantilizing Joyce, it’s being a community. The point of Joyce needing taking care of is not that Joyce is a helpless baby, it’s that Joyce is the one in trouble / in pain RIGHT NOW.
And yes, Joyce has a tendency to be that person, but that doesn’t really make her a baby. Not to Billie, I don’t think. SHe’s too much of A Fixer to really have that baggage. EVERYONE needs her help, to her.
How is that different from Dorothy other than that Dorothy wasn’t jumping into to do it until Jennifer pushed her?
@thejeff Well put.
Good point. It was Billie’s nasty lecture that convinced Joyce’s friends they needed to DO SOMETHING and FIX JOYCE. Meanwhile Billie is nowhere to be found.
Maybe Jennifer is the one who’ll wind up in the Oval Office. Because she’s got the Executive Attitude: here is what we need to do, now do it!
I truly, truly do not think Jennifer is personally okay. She’s still a mess, and heavily in denial about being a mess.
I also think she has, for reasons that are not necessarily personally healthy *for her*, concretely helped Joyce on her menstrual issues more than Joyce’s other friends have, and that her successful offer of support to Joyce on this was rooted in approaching Joyce in a way that didn’t infantilize her. We love to talk about intent vs impact, so: regardless of whether Jennifer’s motives were spurred by condescending feelings about Joyce’s ability to handle her own problems, she kept that aspect of her motives enough to herself not to alienate the person she was trying to help. And Jennifer successfully helped the person she was trying to help, without adding to Joyce’s psychological burden during a crisis period. It’s not *supposed* to be a competition.
That’s fair, but she also stepped in at one point. We don’t know how she would have reacted to Joyce not yet having gone to get the prescription. She’s ignored the parts that had Dorothy and Becky hesitating at the beginning.
My suspicion is that she’d be acting similarly. “Why aren’t you solving this?”
It’s a lot easier to do one thing without coming off as infantilizing. Much harder to keep managing someone else’s problems without doing so and she does very clearly see Joyce’s issues as problems that she (or Joyce’s other friends) should be solving.
Yeah I think she has a bit of a compulsion to help everyone and control every situation. Walky commented on the way she goes berserk if she feels she can’t solve every problem because that means she’s incapable of doing something.
Joyce being a right shit.
I know she’s in pain and discomfort (also psychologically), but she’s still being a right shit.
Exactly. Nice to see some common sense amongst the “but but think about poor Joyce”, like half these people would spend five minutes dealing with someone as much of a pain in the ass as Joyce is being, let alone over and over again like Dorothy
Quite a few people have an “all or none” sort of approach to this webcomic, especially if they relate in any way to the characters. “This is my personal take on the situation because of my situation and this is why this is right/wrong.” That sort of approach is very common and when met with skepticism or a differing comment that may add some nuance, they dig their heels in the sand and don’t budge.
Like, a comment mentioning “victim blaming” was used and I couldn’t help but laugh. It’s fine to get invested in the story and everything that goes on, but there’s a line that a few of the commenters here just blow past. That’s why I personally only comment like…a very small handful of times.
I mentioned in my comments yesterday that both Dorothy’s and Joyce’s irritation can be correct. But, other comments insists that one is more correct than the other as if both can’t correct. There’s no nuance especially since feelings are at play. Some commenters feel that if another person critiques certain characters then That’s Bad (TM), justified or not.
Dorothy and Joyce can both be shits, they can both be in pain, they can both be irritated. They can both be justified in said feelings. It’s not the Sadness Olympics. There’s no gold medal here.
I mean. I have? And I’ve been the one being as much of a pain as Joyce is, too. When you care about each other, you understand that sometimes you’re going to drive each other to the point of frustration. And sometimes, you need to step back and stop trying to help for a bit unless they actually ask you to, because trying to help when they don’t want it just frustrates everyone, actually?
At this point it would be best for Dorothy to leave Joyce alone and let her figure it out. She needs to learn to stand on her own even if she ends up falling quite a bit. That’s not her problem. She needs to focus on getting into Yale and move forward with her life. I had a Dorothy friend back at uni and she really helped me as I am neurodivergent and had a lot of issues. She helped me get my thoughts together and introduced me to the university counseling center which I was able to start therapy and then I was able to start making decent day to day plans. So I hope Joyce finds some sort of support from possibly a therapist because this is way above her friends pay grade.
I mean if I was Dotty, I would consider this to be a big mark in the “pros” column for Going To Yale
Not saying I want that to be where the plot goes, just…y’know…
Oof. Holy shit. Both of them.
Hey, I think this webcomic about stressed-out teenagers might not be the shining example of perfect, algorithm-optimised interpersonal behavior or something.
Both of these characters are having a hard time. Pitting them against each other like every punctuation mark is enough information for a half-hour episode of Death Battle, when that’s definitely not the actual case, it feels strange. And comments are getting needlessly personal and pissy about it, which feels a tiny bit disgusting.
Or in a different tone: Being An Adult is when you have absolutely no comfort at any given time, and the responsible thing to do when you see a person being visibly uncomfortable (and therefore childish) is to grab them by the jaw, hold their mouth open, and scream down their throat about how entitled they are for ever getting even vaguely ruffled about something. If they’re noticeably braindifferent and you’re aware of it in any way, they’re automatically just using it as an excuse to harm you as much as they can.
hey Taffy, hey. remember when you said it did wonders to your mental health to hang out here less?
maybe…? maybe this is one those moments where calling it a day and doing something more rewarding is a good idea?
swear i’m just trying to help you, not silence you, it’s just, you sound a tiny bit on edge. feel free to ignore me if this is unwelcome (and/or tell me to fuck myself, i mean, never a bad idea)
take care cupcake
Nah, you’re probably right. I’m taking certain people way too seriously. Probably stems from Joyce’s current volatile state feeling very #relatable and then seeing people have actual spite for her over it.
Sometimes I let myself forget that this is the same website where I was more or less told to kill myself outright by a person who I’m pretty sure still comments here.
<3
Wait, WHAT. Who the hell said that!?
Pretty sure I know exactly who it was but I’m not gonna name ’em, solely because when I Google certain key words I remember from that episode, I can’t find the specific strip. I figure it was taken down at some point, and good riddance honestly, but it does make proof hard to come by.
i’m not sure we’re thinking about the same time, but i remember this situation?
in which case the person used 2 different accounts, the comments from one of which (the worst comments) were deleted.
i don’t know that they still comment, at least i don’t think i’ve seen that username, but maybe you’ve recognized them somehow commenting under a different pseud
I’m definitely finding Joyce more relatable than Dorothy. Joyce has been going through a lot of tough changes and stuff lately, and her friends really haven’t given her the space and time she needs to sort things out.
Yeah I think her friends are reacting to the old Joyce who feel comforted by someone taking charge of her stuff, but Joyce is changing and now feels smothered by it.
Is it weird phrasing if I say that I think Current Joyce is in a sort of transitional state between Where She Started and Where She Starts Next? She’s only been out and about in The Real World for something close to half a year, and it’s been one hell of a half-year at that. Which is to say, there’s probably bound to be some tension since people’s expectations of her started off on such an extreme foot.
Maybe it’s cuz I’ve been awake for like 2 days straight at this point, but that feels weird the way I said it.
That’s not how it would usually be expressed in English but I understand where you’re coming from. She’s in a transitional period brought about by her new environment and also the traumatic experiences from her old community.
Most things I say aren’t how they’d usually be expressed in English, in fairness. Glad it still came across.
No it makes sense! Joyce is a huge mess because that poor girl is….I wanted to use a butterfly metaphor, but let’s face it “in a cocoon” is exactly the wrong idea. She’s in a transitional state, though, and that’s as metaphorically as slimy and uncomfortable as what I assume occurs within a cocoon.
Oh you’re definitely right! I remember my own similar meltdown, after we finally got me out of Texas and I had a few months to process, and suddenly everything hit like a fucking TRUCK.
Frankly, Joyce is handling this transition better than I did. I spent a solid week screaming and crying, followed by a month long manic state before I could finally get my shit together, and I was immensely lucky to be surrounded by people who loved me at the time.
It’s named ‘Dumbing Of Age’ for a reason. Did we forget that this is the story about them learning to become adults?
I feel really bad for Dorothy right now. All her best efforts are always not enough
She’s really trying, here. I think she’s maybe a little out of her depth though, biting off more than she could reasonably be expected to chew, but all she can really do about it is take better stock of her own (current) capabilities versus what she’d like to be doing.
That’s what I really enjoy about the current arc. Dorothy is trying her best to help Joyce, but Joyce doesn’t always want or appreciate the help especially as she changes and figures out who she is now.
Wow the color and shine in their hair is really pretty, I like how the lighting alone conveys what time of day it is
As someone who has been in Dorothys position before… you gotta stop doing this kinda thing, Dorothy, because eventually you will be sick of it and you will lash out at a time that isn’t great for anyone involved.
For real! It’s not good for either of them. It’s hurting both of them, and building resentment between them that doesn’t need no be there– Dorothy needs to learn that it’s okay to let her friends struggle a little bit, that she doesn’t have to swim out with a life preserver the moment someone starts to flounder.
“You want to spend time with me, but when I push myself into your personal healthcare and do things you vocally find unpleasant at best you get grumpy, what gives?”
I mean really, Dorothy, this doesn’t seem that mysterious
Definitely getting frustrated with the increasing amount of ableism and intolerance in the comment section towards a character for traits that very much reflect what many people on the spectrum have, such as trying to gain space when having an autistic meltdown (not to mention period cramps and possibly social anxiety). Having autistic traits shouldn’t be grounds for ending a friendship, let alone fleeing to an entirely different university. The lack of empathy for both of them being in a shitty situation where there aren’t good options is actually really toxic and frustrating to see. There doesn’t always have to be a hero and villain in every situation. Sometimes, often IMO, arguments happen because both sides have genuinely valid reasons for what they believe. In those situations, ending the conversation to recover is often the best answer because no one will win if it keeps going. That doesn’t make either of them a villain or necessarily in the wrong. They are just coming at the situation with different perspectives and missing a lot of the differences that lead to them taking things badly;
GOD, thank you, someone else fucking saying it.
Absolutely.
I think Willis is doing a great job at portraying what it looks like and sort of the reactions/impacts on other people without being judgemental of any of the kids just trying to work shit out as they go. Like, they are just kids, they’re living on their own for the first time and adapting to adult friendships, plus going through more shit than the majority of the population has to. And they’re actually doing pretty alright at navigating that.
It is a limitation of the distant third-person perspective that it’s hard to empathise with the internal experience since what we mostly see is externalised behaviours. It’s why I’ve been writing a bit more about what it’s like for myself to experience overstimulation/burnout/meltdowns etc. Now I’m wondering whethre it’d be possible to do a fan-comic of what this could be like from Joyce’s internal perspective (although i think that’d be a bit iffy for me to do since she’s autobiographical).
Honestly it’s just straight-up hateful.
Man, them kids. They fucking up in ways that cannot be avoided the first time.
New reaction image just dropped, boy are we going to get a lot of use out of this one.
i think joyce picking up life drawing would be really good for her – it’ll give her space outside of her friends, her own little joyce thing.
all her other classes (that we see) seem to overlap heavily with her friends’ classes, and she shares a room with sarah – so she doesn’t really get a whole lot of time to herself. everything is communal, and while there are going to be other people in the life drawing class, they aren’t going to be people joyce has close relationships with. it’ll be a good space for her to center herself i think.
not sure if her being in the same class as malaya and mary would be much better, though i suppose malaya is indifferent/tolerant enough to ‘trust’ joyce with fuckface, but I imagine mary and her would clash even more now that she’s full on atheist
All Joyce expressed a desire for during this whole period of illness, pun intended, was to be left alone – which is pretty relatable.
No, Dorothy, she doesn’t know, because you didn’t say anything about it.
And yet, as soon as Dorothy says something about it Joyce asks her to do another favor for her that will take more of her time. Dorothy should really set that boundary too.
Exactly. Joyce wants Dorothy out of her face… oh, but, one sec, Dorothy, could you just…
Fuck OFF Joyce
i really wish joyce would stop looking up to liz, she’s not a good role model
…I didn’t get the job I applied for.
That’s OK.
It would have been nice, but I understand why they would want to go with someone else.
I’m sorry, Laura, that sucks.
Yeah that sucks. The sting of rejection that’s a part of every job hunt is always rough.
Thanks folks.
oh no!
what do you mean, you understand!? you would’ve done great, and they suck!
take care Laura <3
Hmm…
This is twice now that Joyce has expressed wanting her friends to leave her alone… followed quickly by a request to do something for her that she can quite easily do herself (though at least this one sort of makes sense, because what would fetching a pad help? she still has to get up and shuffle to the bathroom to change it…).
I don’t think it’s a coincidence. I think this weird push/pull thing going on might happen a couple more times and end up leading somewhere.
idk, at least a fresh one would be a stopgap to keep the existing bit from dripping on the floor
Joyce: *acts like a traumatized, tired, overstimulated autistic woman on the verge of a meltdown because she’s in pain and intensely hormonal on her period*
Everyone: OMG THE DEVIL.
I just. Do you ever think about the fact that you are almost certainly friends with someone who’s had a moment like this? That someone you love has had a moment like this?
How do you discard someone as being irredeemable, without thinking about what the people in your life reading what you think will feel when they realize you actually hate them?
I don’t get it.
as a traumatized autistic person: RIGHT??
I KNOW. Like! I cannot imagine it! I’m a traumatized autistic woman living in a household full of traumatized autistic people, this Happens sometimes! Meltdowns suck, give them space and let them put their headset on, stop poking at the raw nerve and let them fix their brain. They’ll apologize in an hour or two when their ears aren’t full of bees, a day or two at most.
Sending care your way. Being late-diagnosed is an additional kick in the guts.
I keep thinking of the John Hodgman saying: “Help people in the way they want to be helped.”
It’s not a contradiction to find someone’s attempts to help annoying but to be interested in things you want them to help you with acceptable.
Yeah. I rarely get really mad at the comments section here. But seriously, Dorothy hasn’t suffered shit I’m this situation. What’s gonna happen if Dorothy leaves Joyce alone on this? She starts her birth control next week? Maybe? And she lies in bed and takes lots of pain killers and sleeps? When Joyce’s request to be left alone requires everybody to sweep her room for sharps prior to leaving the room, then she can start to talk. Or when she has to sit with Joyce to make sure she eats something for the first time in 48 hours and then has to stay with her to make sure she doesn’t vomit it up before she can feel safe leaving Joyce alone instead of taking her to the hospital. THEN we can talk about how Dorothy didn’t have a real choice but to stay and help. Joyce CAN be left alone for a couple days. She will live. She has survived debilitating periods since she was like 10! Nobody decided it was an emergency until Joyce was also dealing with kidnapping, death, divorced parents, losing her faith, having a massive fight with Becky, and learning she’s maybe autistic?????? I dealt with really heavy, pretty dang painful periods until I started birth control because I was about to get MARRIED. I didn’t think the severity of my periods was weird because that’s how it was for my mom and my sisters. It was really not that big of a deal! Taking some time to emotionally prepare to get a new medication, and even GOING TO A DIFFERENT PHARMACY when the closest one is decorated with your worst fears are perfectly reasonable strategies to dealing with a new situation.
Also. To all those saying Joyce is acting like a child? I’m a foster/adopt parent. I promise you no part of Joyce’s reaction looks anything like how traumatized children behave when they’re overstimulated, in pain, or expected to do something that stretches their window of tolerance. Joyce is calm, expresses thanks for Dorothy’s efforts, and calmly sets boundaries, while expressing she still respects and appreciates Dorothy’s opinions and some of her attempts to help. My kids scream bloody murder, tell me I’m stupid, mean, they hate me, and sometimes throw things or hit me repeatedly… because I said it was time to come brush teeth before bedtime. Seriously. If you think Joyce is over the top, please don’t go anywhere near traumatized children or adults.
I get why Dorothy thought she was doing the right thing. I’m not slamming her. She has a sense that Joyce is lashing out reasonably. Maybe she even realizes she’s overstepped. She also hasn’t had any trauma training. I know I reacted badly sometimes to my friend in college with the self-harm issues because I didn’t know any better. Heck, i often respond less than ideally to my kids and I HAVE had a ton of training now. But the people bashing Joyce in the comments are WAY out of line.
Seconded.
Thirded!
Forthed!
People tripping over themselves to call Joyce an ungrateful brat in reaction *this* strip, of all strips, the strip where she *used her words* not only to clearly state what she needed from Dorothy, instead of emotionally lashing out in pain the way she’s done a couple of times leading up to this, but also to explicitly thank Dorothy for helping her…*that* was the bit that made me wtf
at this fucking comments section again. Did y’all want a full-floor headpress accompanied by torrents of abject, tearful apologies from Joyce for being difficult during an ongoing moment of crisis? Joyce is literally trying to be the friend who thanks a friend for her help, even though that help has been painful and not entirely welcome during a very trying time.
Is Dorothy about to realize she just did what Danny did at the beginning of the series? (Also, how am I the only person mentioning this? I just searched the page for “Danny” because I was sure someone else would have made this comparison.)