Based loosely off of "The Snow Queen", a story by Hans Christian Andersen, we see things take a different turn as the demons become central characters, and the side characters stick around. Yup, that's the only differences. Enjoy!
The Witch Door
Anni K.
Katariina Lehto discovers her neighbor is a witch called Jousia Muotka. Jousia introduces Katariina to the strange people and places beyond the witch door...
Wychwood
Varethane
When Tiara's pyrokinesis is finally noticed, she is captured by a magical research organization for study. If she cooperates, she could be helping to save humanity from a dire threat - but can she trust them?
Cassiopeia Quinn
Gunwild, Psudonym
A cute, pantsless thief is pursued across the stars by a buttoned-up military officer in the spacey, laser-filled future.
Goodbye to Halos
Valerie Halla
Cuddles, gay flirting, weird feelings, and magic-fueled knife fights - it's an adventure across the queer multiverse!
The Automan's Daughter
Mike Stamm
Aisha Osman and her uncle Siddig outwit bikers, spies and kidnappers while gearing up for a showdown with the formidable Widowmaker mecha.
Guilded Age
T Campbell, John Waltrip, Florence Machina
Welcome to the saga of the working-class adventurer! Enjoy the complete story with new annotations daily!
Never Satisfied
Taylor Robin
Lucy Marlowe, a magician's apprentice, competes against other apprentices for an important, magical, Goverment Job.
Whomp!
Ronnie
A depressed, portly, hirsute anime fan stumbles through life in the ever-pursuit of chicken nuggets and other life-shortening indulgences.
Dumbing of Age
David M Willis
Joyce has been homeschooled her entire life until now, when she's suddenly a freshman in college! Things don't go well.
Knights Errant
J.R. Doyle
Wilfrid's humble quest for revenge becomes bigger and bloodier by the day.
Nerf Now!!
Josué Pereira
A cute webcomic about fanservice, video games, and... love. Mostly video games, though.
Ghost Junk Sickness
Studio CARTRIDGE, Laura Lee
Two hunters try to survive and end up being pushed to pursue a deadly bounty dubbed "The Ghost".
The Sanity Circus
Windy
Magic, monsters and mysteries await in the odd city of Sanity. It's up to Attley and a colorful group of characters to find out just what is going on.
Godslave
Meaghan Carter
Edith has been thrown into the dangerous world of modern-day Egyptian mythology. Fighting monsters and dealing with family drama of godly proportions.
Monster Pulse
Magnolia Porter Siddell
Four kids run afoul of a creepy secret organization's experiments, which turn their body parts into fighting monsters. Part sentimental coming-of-age story, part monster-training shonen manga, with just a bit of sci-fi body horror.
Sufficiently Remarkable
Maki Naro
Two young women living in Brooklyn discover that you're always coming of age.
Love Not Found
Gina Biggs
Abeille is on a quest to find someone who wants to do it the old-fashioned way in a time when touching has become outdated.
Sister Claire
Yamino
In the troubled aftermath of a great war between Witches and her fellow Nuns, novice Sister Claire just wants a purpose.
Lighter Than Heir
Melissa Albino
A young Volant woman joins the military in an effort to upstage her war-hero father.
Anarchy Dreamers
Emily Ree
Sparkly undead kids fight society's worst Nightmares in this pastel-punk urban fantasy coming-of-age!
Kiwi Blitz
Mary Cagle (Cube Watermelon)
Steffi thinks she can use her kiwi mech to become a superhero. This idea turns out to be very stupid.
The Lonely Vincent Bellingham
Diana Huh
Vincent is an unkind man looking to disappear, and finds himself in the care of a vampire and her two wicked children.
Between Failures
Jackie Wohlenhaus
The low stakes adventures of an assorted group of 20 somethings trapped in the declining years of American retail. They are naughty and say lots of swears.
The End
August Brown, Cory Brown
Two aliens crash a sci-fi convention and accidentally take seven nerds on an adventure that spans the galaxy!
Astral Aves
Moon Cabal
A fantasy coming-of-age following the adventures of Astra The Black and friends, as they navigate the mysterious world around them. It's politics, adventure, and the supernatural; oh, and crazy hair.
Tigress Queen
Allison Shaw
A barbarian warlord and a pampered prince try to avoid a marriage alliance that could end decades of violence.
Lilith's Word
inkPangur
If you had the power to make any wish come true using just one word, what would you say?
Star Impact
Jack McGee
A young, energetic woman fights her way up in the world of super-powered boxing after discovering the mighty gloves of her missing idol!
Girl Genius
Phil Foglio, Kaja Foglio
In a time when the Industrial Revolution has become an all-out war, Mad Science rules the World...with mixed success.
Atomic Robo
Brian Clevinger, Scott Wegener
The robot punches monsters and bad robots and one time he was a cowboy.
Cut Time
Juby
Rel and her trusty avian friend Fugue are on a quest to save a world that's lost track of time. Follow them and their new recruits, in a story written with help from the stars.
Caramel Corn
Potchimew
Sarah is the only human left in a world full of mythical creatures and monsters. All she wants to do is live a quiet life, but everything changes when she meets her guardian angel, Jacob.
Starhammer
J.N. Monk, Harry Bogosian
A teen girl inherits a powerful alien artifact and proceeds to make a series of increasingly poor decisions
Devil's Candy
Rem, Bikkuri
A lush fantasy about boy genius Kazu Decker, the girl he constructed for his 9th grade science project, and the world of devils and monsters they live in.
Alice and the Nightmare
Misha Krivanek
Alice finally attends University to learn to collect the dreams of humans, meet new friends, and deal with a pesky reflection along the way.
Kochab
Sarah Webb
A YA F/F fantasy comic about Sonya, a lost skier trying to survive a snowy wilderness and find her way back to her village; and Kyra - a fire spirit trying to fix the home that she let fall apart around her.
Real Science Adventures
Brian Clevinger
Spin off stories and other adventures from the world of Atomic Robo!
Cyanide & Happiness
Explosm
Satire, dark humor and surreal humor.
Fireweeds Moors
Gato Iberico
A cat-headed man and a girl with a sandwich hankering accidentally end up in a myth-infused country where magic chalices are a really big thing.
[un]Divine
Ayme
A highschool senior thought giving up his soul for a demon was a good idea. It wasn't.
Go Get a Roomie
Clover
Experience the queer journey of an upbeat hippie and the friendships she makes along the way! A tale of self-discovery and love of many forms.
El Goonish Shive
Dan Shive
WARNING: This comic often ignores the Laws of Physics
Sam & Fuzzy
Sam Logan
Troubled by gangster rodents, lovesick vampire stalkers, or confused ninja assassins? Don't panic! Sam and Fuzzy are here to help. (For a reasonable fee.)
Stand Still, Stay Silent
Minna Sundberg
A few generations after the end of the world, a small, poorly financed research crew is sent out to rediscover whatever is left of the forbidden old world in the south.
Widdershins
Kate Ashwin
A series of light-hearted Victorian-era adventure stories featuring grumpy bounty hunters, accidental thiefkings, and more, in England's magical capital city Widdershins!
Hazy London
Scotty
A story about messy relationships. From friendly foes to crazy families. Nothing is black and white, just full of color. But, all colors can get a little hazy...
Paranatural
Zack Morrison
Superpowered middle schoolers fight evil spirits in their rural hometown. Come for the jokes, stay for the cast, the creatures, and the mystery that ties them all together!
Empowered
Adam Warren
A sexy superhero comedy (except when it isn't) about the never-ending struggles of a plucky but very unlucky young superheroine.
Monsterkind
Taylor C
Wallace Foster, a young, bright-eyed human social worker, has his entire world view rocked when he's suddenly relocated into a city primarily inhabited by monsters.
Star Trip
Gisele Weaver
Jas is a human taken from her home planet on a trip across the galaxy she will never forget.
Wilde Life
Pascalle Lepas
Oscar decided to rent an old haunted house, and that's when things got weird...
Jailbird
Charlie Davis
An all-ages comic about a recently escaped prisoner's struggle to understand the outside world, and vice-versa. Also, a magic cape!
Awaken
Koti Saavedra/Flipfloppery
Superpowers, monsters and conspiracies. Piras, the spoiled Dameschi heir, fights to recover his identity after becoming a terrorist!
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The far right? Why does everyone always assume the conservatives are consistently the enemy. Wasn’t LBJ the one who pushed his “guns and butter” policies, further entrenching us in Vietnam? Wasn’t it Jimmy Carter who crashed our economy and promoted the “crisis of confidence”, followed by the Iran hostage crisis (which we had to clean up with the Iran Contra scandal)?
This is the one complaint I have for this webcomic: there’s too much of this fascist liberal propaganda, comparing conservatives to fascists (which has been going on since at least the counter-culture movement of the 60s).
If the politics were taken out of the Ryan arc (which is more than reasonable, seeing how Ted Bundy gave OSU’s campus a run for it’s money).
Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of fundamentalist religious nuts and warhawks who wear Wal-Mart American flag t-shirts, and they tow an overly-simplified view of federalist, conservative, and libertarian positions. However, to outright attack anyone of a conservative bent is ridiculous.
Certainly, the story could be even more interesting if Joyce’s transformation as a growing, independent woman involved finding a blend of Judeo-Christian fundamentals, the Greek empirical philosophers, and elements across the political spectrum that fit her personal truth. Why not make her take a few philosophy courses?
Because today it’s conservatives who want to dump millions of people off of health care just to give rich people a tax break.
It’s conservatives who fought to block same sex marriage.
It’s conservatives who want to force transgender people to use the wrong bathroom, forbid them from competing in athletics while in school, and bar them from serving in the military.
It’s conservatives who maintain that the Constitution doesn’t protect against discrimination against LGBT people. They’re the ones voting down laws aimed at making that protection explicit.
It’s conservatives insisting that our law enforcement agencies and local police don’t need to change, despite all of the innocent people getting murdered by them, with the perpetrators going free because they have a badge.
It’s conservatives insisting we need to ban refugees and immigrants based on their religion, while insisting that it’s Christianity that’s under attack.
It’s conservatives who are declaring science itself as their enemy, because they want to keep their heads in the sand about climate change, happy to let future generations suffer. And because they want THEIR views on evolution and sex ed to be taught as fact.
Nobody is vilifying them. They’re doing it to themselves.
What health care? What the states has is mandatory Health Insurance.
Medicare is where the money should have gone instead of into the pockets of the middlemen [aka the 0.1%]
Peoples Lives are literally being held ransom by Speculative Investors these days.
Also the whole “It’s conservatives” thing …. ugh.
I am a conservative, ie fiscally restrained etc etc responsible government etc etc.
What most call conservative in the United Staes of America is a full blown 1984 double-think with some Brazil, Clockwork Orange mixed in like some weird kind of Koolaid.
It is full blown dysfunctional corporate fascism and it looks to be getting worse in all sectors of society and the economy.
Even by their own estimates, not ONE version of the bill they’re trying to pass would have INCREASED access to care. The best estimate would have “only” uninsured 10 million people. Nobody denies that what we have now isn’t good enough, but it’s sure as hell better than what the GOP has been proposing.
If it weren’t for conservatives – or “conservatives” if that’s easier on your delicate feelings – we would have had single payer back in 2010. If you’re not like them, that’s fucking wonderful.
John McCain holds the ideas I’d define as conservatism and he just gave a massive middle finger to the Republican Party. Conservatism is not about denying rights and discriminating against others, it is about ensuring that each step taken is the correct one and being respectful of the level of power that government has over private citizens.
Remember also that you are biased. There are many good things that conservatives do to promote job growth, enable the country to thrive, and protect the rights of certain groups. You just don’t think about them because you’re focused on the groups they don’t protect and the people they don’t promote. Guess what honey – conservatives are in the same boat. It’s 100% perspective.
You and others who agree with your little diatribe there need to go and meet real conservatives and TALK TO THEM. You CANNOT have a deep understanding of someone’s political beliefs from a BULLET POINT LIST WRITTEN BY SOMEONE WHO HATES THE SUBJECT MATTER. Imagine if I tried to delineate trans rights in the same way you just scathingly denounced everything that “conservatives” believe. Spoiler: I’d get banned.
Note that this digression started with damning the “far right”, which was blurred neatly into “conservatives are being blamed”.
Problem is, it’s that far right that’s dominating conservative politics these days. Get me a sane moderate conservative party and we can talk. (By many standards of course, we already have one. It’s called the Democratic Party.)
I have personally argued against the idea that ALL conservatives are bad, and that conservatism is inherently bad on this very site. I’m well aware that there are many conservatives who voted for Hillary because they preferred a president they disagreed with over one who was unfit for office.
But I was responding to Chris, and they were the one who saw “the far right” and equated it with ALL conservatives. I was explaining the things actual conservatives are doing which cause people to have negative reactions to them.
Chris was also the one complaining about “fascist liberal propaganda, comparing conservatives to fascists”. Without irony, somehow. I’m still laughing about that.
Btw, that comparison is a dramatically false equivalence. People don’t choose to be trans. There aren’t millions of trans people out there who voted a bigot into office who is actively trying their damnedest to harm marginalized people.
I will totally concede the “not all conservatives” point, but holy crap, have some self-awareness. Conservatism is a political ideology, not some oppressed minority group, ffs
Hey, BigGuy, here’s an idea: my dad and my stepmom proudly support every one of the items on Captor’s bullet point list. How about you come over to their house and explain to them exactly how they do not qualify as “real conservatives?”
According to you, everyone I have ever met in real life that identifies as a conservative is not a “real” conservative. So, where do I have to go to meet these “real” conservatives in-person?
When have republicans ever done anything to promote job growth. And no, giving tax breaks to rich people, and trying to get rid of minimum wage would NOT promote job growth.
When have republicans actually helped the economy in the past thirty years? Since the record shows that over and over, it’s republicans who screw up the economy worldwide. Republican states tend to be worst off economically, exactly because it’s a proven fact that republican ideas on the economy do NOT work.
In TWIN PEAKS: THE RETURN which is AWESOME, btw, they have Cooper escape the Black Lodge to go after his doppelganger has been wrecking havoc for 25 in his body. Given this is multiverse, it makes sense Original Mary has either been replaced or became her original self a.k.a Good Mary. I assume that Evil Mary has been returned to the dimension from which she came.
Is that what Cooper’s been doing? Huh. In the version I’ve been watching, he’s just been stumbling around with a dazed look on his face and repeating the last few words that anyone says to him.
I believe David Lynch is having revenge on his audience for FIRE WALK WITH ME by saying, “So, you wanted back Cooper? Well, here is he, except he won’t actually be back until Episode 18 and probably in the last 2 minutes!” I’m ready to riot about the lack of Audrey too.
My favorite moment so far was the Mystery of the Golden Shovels which turned out to be a scam to bilk conspiracy theorist listeners out of their money.
… with a soupcon of hypocrisy in the “Using their faith to justify anything” part, though it’s a stretch to say Ryan.was doing that, more like using his association with a trusted authority figure (in the abstract as we know.nothing of his father, the father) to con his way into a position of advantage to exploit.
There is actually no such country as France. The so-called “French” pretend there is and then giggle en masse when our backs our turned, at how epically they’re trolling the rest of the world.
I mean, the escargot thing was a dead giveaway, and they still can’t believe that nobody caught on.
Nah. That’s just a distraction from the fact that the American continent never existed. Columbus actually did hit Japan when he sailed west, and all “Americans” actually live in some unknown region of Siberia and have made up an entire country.
I mean, it’s not like they even bothered to make up an actual culture to go with the country, so that’s a dead giveaway.
There once was a snail that loved to race cars. When he was old enough, he bought a car and painted a big “S” on it, so that everyone would know that the snail was driving a really fast car. Over time, people would point at the snail’s car as it sped by and say “Look at that S Car Go.”
It really is. Charlemagne hated it, and complained that he wished people would speak proper Latin or Frankish (which sounded like a really archaic form of Dutch) instead of that weird degenerate hybrid.
To be fair all languages are newfangled jargon.
And I’m not sure it was Charlemagne who wanted latin/frankish. More his scholars, if I remember it well enough from Saenger’s Space between words.
that’s why it’s important for everyone to reflect on their actions now and then. just, remember that amber’s way is not a healthy way human imperfections are generally better solved with kindness, compassion and sane boundaries, *especially* when dealing with your own mind.
I had the idea now that she found out about Stabface and it put a bit of a shock into her, finding out that a pastor’s son could go so wrong, and she’s had some insight into her own failings as a follower of her faith. And trying first to fix herself before trying to apologize for her meanness of spirit.
Maybe it could happen! On this Day Of Great Devotion, I want to see the good in people.
(Thirty years ago, Rick Astley promised he was never going to give us up or let us down, and he’s kept to that.)
Nar, she’s been weird since before that. It seemed like it was joy at what happened to Ruth at first, but hasn’t there been a week since that happened now? Mary acting decent is freaking me the hell out!
That seemed to be forced-nice from Billie, at least imo. She was evilly gleeful last chapter about Ruth’s return, but this seems different. The being nice to Carla could be part of a nefarious scheme (since Carla’s been one of her targets previously), but this doesn’t fit as well.
Ahh yes, the old bad person says agreeable thing but that doesn’t make you hate the bad person less, because no one is 100% evil but coming out of them, it doesn’t feel good at all
She’s saying that with a straight face, and I’m mostly confused. It’s coming off as more of a lack of self-awareness to me. But, I’ve been historically thrown off by that type of thing often with manipulators, so take that with a grain of salt i suppose.
Now I’m conflicted. Because if Mary was replaced by a Skrull that’s a good thing I dislike Mary. But Skrulls are also evil beings seeking to invade Earth. But I think the Skrulls are probably an improvement from Mary
There’s been at least two skrulls and a half-skrull IIRC that weren’t evil, which suggests that the evil thing is not an inherent trait, but rather the percieved norm based on the perspectives of non-skrulls and the actions of skrull leaders and military.
On a Doyleist versus Watsonian approach, is the character of Mary better being a one-dimensional fundamentalist stooge who represents all that’s worst in religion or is it better that she might be able to re-evaluate her life or show layers? I don’t want Mary to be ever justified for her treatment of Carla and transphobia but I admit I wonder if Willis could redeem her like Ruth despite Mary being a bigot versus “just” a bully.
Nothing will ever, ever justify the way she treated Carla and Ruth. But, were this real life and not a comic, well–occasionally people change, see the error of their ways and become better people.
I don’t think we’ll see that happen here though, it’d need more time than we have. I doubt we’ll ever even see the end of freshman year.
Mind you, we have had Ruth and now presumably Joe change. The title is about the mistakes people make and how they cope with them. Robin, for example, TRIED to change and just found out it wasn’t possible. She didn’t even get a heroic moment where she proved instrumental in taking down Not-Ryan. HOWEVER, she did TRY.
You hit on something here that’s pretty interesting to me: I feel like Ruth’s apology session in particular deserves analysis in the context of the comic as a whole.
Ruth and Joe aren’t anywhere near the nature or magnitude of Mary’s awfulness, and even then, neither changed in a day. Joe has barely changed at all yet.
Mary’s awfulness came from hateful beliefs so entrenched that she actually got angry at Billie for suggesting that she should feel bad nearly bullying Ruth to suicide. So entrenched that when the entire floor turned on her for that, she was actually surprised. So entrenched that she immediately announced her intention of resuming that bullying the same day Ruth got back from the hospital.
Simply getting to the point where she might accept the possibility that she may have done anything bad would be a dramatic shift in her personality. Actually getting to the point of becoming a decent person would require years for her.
Maybe she can manage becoming less evil, but I’m not gonna hold my breath
I feel it’s better to show people getting better rather than just always being assholes. Her treatment of Carla was very familiar to me – in some ways I’m very similar to Jocelyn- but people I knew that reacted poorly to my coming out have since become better people.
(Incidentally, CT, I love your work.). (Willis, yours to.). (I wish I had time to write.)
I mean, we had points in the Walkyverse where Mary appeared to be heading for redemption, although it never seemed fully established. And it took years, in a fictional universe whose passage of time matched our own.
Even then, “Fundamentalist Girl stops being so judgemental” is already part of Joyce’s character in this universe, so it might be redundant for Mary to take that path.
Of course, it could be framed as an Accountability Arc, where Mary isn’t really redeemed but instead acknowledges that she’s done terrible things and must accept that people won’t immediately welcome her with open arms. Although we’re already getting plenty of that with Ruth, Joe and Robin.
This has occurred to me too, since I’d love to see a character development arc for Mary. I think Willis could put a great deal of complexity into her character without necessarily going for either redemption or accountability. Then again, it’d be interesting to see how exactly an accountability arc might play out. After all, it’s… well, it’s Mary, for crying out loud.
Though I do agree that it is possible Mary has gone through some character development, I think it much more likely that she’s just against rape. You can be a terrible bigot and still have some reasonable opinions about right and wrong. You wouldn’t expect her to support a serial killers, for example, just because they go to church.
Is it possible for a bigot to pull their head out of wherever it was previously lodged and become a better person? Absolutely. Do I believe it happened off-panel? No. Why would Willis spontaneously change a character’s personality when he could have the change happen on-panel and milk it for tasty, tasty drama?
A lot of this webcomic is about people realizing that they are wrong about either other people or their beliefs. They grow and learn through this realization and dealing with it.
Now if trying to put the audience through such an experience, Mary could be the best candidate.
Okay, what is going on? Did someone kidnap Mary and brainwash her? If that happened, we need to know who did it so we can properly celebrate their heroism.
If that was the case it would put her character in a whole new perspective. I would say that Ruth should have known that Mary needed to be on medication, but I could totally see Ruth blowing off looking through the students files
Ooh, that’s… entirely possible. She does seem to be concealing cut wrists, so it’s entirely possible that she’s been having mental health issues thus far.
We really haven’t, though. Not enough for us to be sure she isn’t hiding something. I just went back through all the comics tagged “Mary,” and the only times she’s been without her wristbands were when she was wearing a long-sleeved shirt and a shirt with long-ish sleeves. Maybe that counts? Cuts heal; if she was trying to stop, she might have made it to a point that they were subtle enough to wear three-quarter sleeves.
Either way, I don’t know if it means anything specific, or if I just missed something, but…she wears them when she brushes her teeth. The time Billie walked in on her when Mary was in her underwear, the only other clothes Mary had on were her wristbands. So I don’t know.
That, and if you want a reputation for being Ruthless, it does help to have as much information you can on your floor.
In any case, Mary would not in a million years be “on meds” for displaying bigoted behaviour; because said behaviour is perfectly acceptable and even encouraged in her local society.
And even if it wasn’t accepted, there aren’t any serious reports claiming that bigotry is in itself a psychiatric condition that needs psychiatric style treatment.
And I’m saying all this knowing that jeffep most likely just meant to make an offhand joke comment. Because if there’s one thing I’m good at, it’s killing jokes by deconstructing them completely.
Awwwwwhyeah, paladin Joyce is best Joyce. Friend is all torn up inside? (Well, understatement, but) This will not stand! Help friend!
Granted, Joyce is in no way qualified to give the kind of help Amber needs, but it’s a good impulse. And maybe being told she did a really good thing will…help somewhat?
The steely look just makes it, too.
(Also eeeeeeeeeee she’s hanging out with Jacob my otp)
I’m not sure what Amber needs is to be lauded for slashing up Ryan, even though I’m with Dorothy in that, intellectually, I’m all with her having gone all Jason Voorhees.
Absolutely she does. It’s thinking she’s nothing but a rage monster that’s tearing her apart now. She needs to know that not only are they grateful for what she did, but they’re not afraid of the “crazy stabby girl”, like Mike was so kind as to reinforce in her brain.
And we see that here: They’re not afraid of her, they’re grateful and concerned.
Just saying…..I think it’s better if she stays like this and we never know. Whatever the reason is won’t be satisfying. Like do we really need to know exactly what happened to Ryan? Him getting his ass kicked is enough. Mary being nice for no reason is funny. Just my opinion anyway. It probably won’t last though.
See that would bum me out cause then all this is filed under typical Mary bullshit and the last few weeks of nice Mary are cheapened. Although that’s believable as a thing so I guess I can’t be mad if it happens.
I think Mary is trying to pretend to be concerned, to be included in the conversation because she’s nosy as hell, but she only sees the world through Jesus glasses, so calling Ryan ( in essense) a bad Christian is all she’s got. That, and she’s trying to distance Ryan from Christianity, because even she can’t put a rosy Jesus-spin on what he did and he’s P.K., which in some way insulates him from No True Christian.
Because most of her swearing has been hell or damn. She said shit in front of her mom though, so it doesn’t matter. Not scandalous, more like a character note.
I think that Mary isn’t like going to turn out to be this great person, so much as she has SOME limits. This is like Joker telling off Red Skull, not a face turn entirely.
Let’s all post our insane theories for why Mary’s behavior has changed. Mine is she’s actually the new Female Doctor’s companion who took her on a year and a half of space travel that reorientated her worldview. The Doctor took her back within 2 days and she’s now trying to make amends.
Okay, who’s familiar with the “Avril Lavigne is dead” conspiracy theory? Basically, it’s that Avril Lavigne had a look a like to help distract the paparazzi from herself. Then, around 2003/2004/dates may vary, the real Avril Lavigne died, and her look a like took over and has been her ever since.
Yeah, it feels oddly genuine in a way she hasn’t really been in a long time. Which is… something. Maybe good, maybe bad, but it’s definitely something.
Insane theory: While she’s a jerk in many ways she genuinely is against rape, assault, and murder and is glad Ryan was stopped. Mary thinks Ryan is genuinely evil and only pretending to be a Christian and she thinks she herself is genuinely good and not merely justifying thing with her faith. Thus she thinks her comment is a perfectly normal thing to say and everyone else is thinking don’t you do the same thing (albeit not to the point of attempted murder she’s a jerk not a psychopath)
Yeah, she just tries to do her murders with words against suicidally depressed targets. She’d never murder with a knife.
Nor was this one of those (attempted) rapes that can easily be explained away as not rape because it’s all the girl’s fault somehow. Drugs and then attacks with a knife.
So it’s easy for her to cast herself on the good side here, as you suggest.
At the time I posted that, my mind was coming to some odd conclusions. See, Mary’s known for transphobia, and then a word that’s considered a transphobic slur pops up in the comments. At the time, it seemsd like Synnerman was referencing Mary’s transphobia.
I didn’t know of that other definition (and I guess I should call myself lucky because of that). I don’t know if I should thank you for educating me on that, or just feel horrible to now know about this…
I should add “definition” as it’s actually a misuse of the word as a word with ‘I can’t express what kinda horrible meaning, as I lack the words for that right now’-meaning
Partially because it’s a perfect example of that word having meaning, and partially because Ethan and Jacob weren’t there for the conversation I just linked? I don’t remember if Ethan and Jacob have seen Joyce’s pseudo-swearing from before; they could just see this as a perfectly appropriate use of the word.
That’s more or less how I’ve read that line too. Mary reuses the same words from Joyce’s sentence in the preceding panel. Funny thing is that it applies in so many ways to so many characters, starting with Mary herself. Like a black & white character commenting on how the world is actually shades of grey. Irony over nine thousand.
Wow, Mary, I guess you do have some self awareness– naw, who am I kidding, you’re still the same old sanctimonious hypocrite we’ve come to know and hate.
The irony of course, is that Ryan wasn’t using his faith to justify what he was doing. He was using his status as a P.K. as cover and bait, so your comment – intended to ingratiate yourself into the party?- was a non sequiter as to Ryan, and just shone a spotlight on your horrible self.
Way to make it about you, Mary.
So many of my friends will die. I will probably die. And I’m just… tired. Like, fuck, this bill makes insurance for being employed no longer mandatory, so we’re all about to lose insurance when this shit hits the fan and they are already laying the groundwork to regard a whole swath of medical conditions as not worth covering.
I’m trying to hold onto a silver lining, onto hope, but it’s getting real fucking thin at the moment.
Panel 1: Okay, time to pull it together. I like the group gathering to show support and it’s interesting to see Jacob being a major part in it despite him not really knowing her. I guess him and Joyce have been getting a lot closer lately in a totally platonic and not involving Joyce falling for him way.
And Ethan’s last comment. You can tell he’s really worried about that and knows how bad a sign that is.
Panels 2-3: I love this moment a lot. Like, at the end of the day, no, you can’t force support on someone. If they don’t want to talk, especially if they’re dealing with triggering stuff, sometimes forcing them to or intruding in their safe spaces makes things a lot worse. Joyce’s approach is well-meaning but has a lot of potential to go wrong.
That said, I feel the sentiment so hard. The desire to let someone who is emotionally hurting because they fought for you or protected you that you deeply care and value what they did. And it might be what Amber does need. To hear that she’s not a monster, but a hero. That Amber is a hero for what she did to protect and save Joyce and all the comfort and ability to go outside that Amber has brought her.
I dunno, it’s a tough situation.
Panels 4-5: … you know, I actually feel a little bit for Mary here. Like, growing up with the type of shitheads who’d cheer the bill being passed tonight, I got to see a lot of bullshit hand-waving when men of the cloth or deep religious convictions do wrong.
Like, it becomes either the action wasn’t actually bad and that sexual assault or terrorist bombing of a building was actually a heroic action for Christ that should be praised. Or it’s that person wasn’t a real Christian and was actually a secret atheist or jewish person or Catholic or something that allows them to distance themselves. Or it’s a false flag to discredit the faith. An intentional ruse of Satan.
So for Mary to fucking own that shit when so many folks who’ve stumbled on these comic threads can’t manage to own Mary or Toedad or Carol? To say, yeah, he’s of my faith and that’s disturbing is big. And it’s even bigger that she’s acknowledging and publicly wrestling with the fact that folks can use her faith to justify evil.
Like, yeah, it’s hypocritical, because she’s not being aware of how much she’s used her faith to justify horrific actions, but this feels like a crucial intermediate step to eventually being less of a shithead than she is now and that means something in our current hellhole people like Mary have trapped us in.
And it’s also understandable that this would be the thing to penetrate on that point. She may be bigoted as a Christian, but she’s still a woman, specifically a young woman and it’s damn hard to avoid rape culture and sexual harassment when you are a woman in public. So this hits home. This was a man who targeted folks like her, religious women he thought he could exploit. That closeness allows a little more empathy and reasoning than we’d normally see.
But it’s also nice seeing the line she won’t cross. What she’ll refuse to justify in the name of her twisted idea of religion and “good personhood”. I can hope that this will be the beginning of tumbling out of her vileness, but I doubt it. But I can at least appreciate this one moment of clarity for what it is.
Even if it makes everyone present have to very quickly bite their tongue in response.
Do not lose yourself to despair. We will have great need of resolve in the days ahead. There will be casualties, but we must endure, and be prepared to fight. For it is only once we accept defeat that we have been truly beaten. So carry on.
All the hugs. The only thing I can think of is call your senators, and have your friends do so too. That’s also for people outside the US – get American friends to do the thing.
And I hope you’re right and this piece of clarity for Mary sticks. Although, ick, that is an unpleasant thing that caused it.
I’m starting to think that McCain coming back to give the deciding vote to debate healthcare was secretly a Machiavellian ploy on his part to make sure that there wouldn’t be a bill passed, all so he could spit in Trump’s eye before he dies. Which is still kinda a dick move to the American people, but not as much of a dick move as it first appeared.
The skinny repeal bill just failed. Honestly I think the 49-51 defeat had to have been preplanned, that bill was the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard of, you can’t have the Obamacare marketplaces without a mandate. It just doesn’t function on a base level, they were near bankrupt even with it.
I was watching the livestream while on twitter. Someone tweeted something to the effect of: “We are all passionately tweeting about Senate votes. This is our lives now. Our social studies teachers would all be so proud.”
Of course Republicans are going to keep attacking the ACA. But each time they’re defeated, they wil have to back-pedal and come up with a less damaging replacement. The “skinny repeal,” while terrible, was objectively less terrible than their first attempt. I hope that Republicans keep being defeated to the point where they (a) just give up or (b) come up with something virtually indistinguisable from the ACA.
A reporter (I don’t remember who – I think maybe someone from CNN?) recently said that once you give people rights (like the right to healthcare) it is VERY hard to revoke those rights. We’re seeing that in action and it gives me hope in the midst of this Trumpian wasteland.
It’s never going to pass and it’s political theater at this point. The Republicans have the unfortunate situation (for them, not us) of the fact those who want the poor to die are opposed by those who have the fact Red States being the primacy beneficiaries of Obamacare.
Due to how reconciliation works, healthcare “reform” is dead until 2019 at the earliest unless McCain dies or becomes incapacitated within the next ~2 months before this year’s reconciliation window closes. They’re planning to use next year’s reconciliation bill on various tax cuts and Trump’s infrastructure agenda and can’t use it on health care.
Or unless they tweak it again to come up with something McCain will support. Or some other piece of political theater. It’s still possible to pass something on health care using this year’s reconciliation. They just need to cobble something together that can get to 50.
I don’t think it’s likely, but it’s not guaranteed.
It was intended to pass, it’s just not the political theater you’re thinking about.
They ram it through, the House passes it, Trump signs it, it’s the law of the land… with the harmful bits taking effect in 2018. Then, they work on a real healthcare law, one that wouldn’t turn the insurance industry into a smoking hole in the ground but isn’t nearly as good or provide as much coverage as the ACA.
That way, they could bully moderates into supporting an actual HC bill, because “If you don’t, this flaming turd will kill millions”.
…….of course, because the Republicans are fucking incompetent at actually running the government, the process would fail, the markets would crumble, and everyone would blame everyone else. But that part likely wasn’t part of the plan.
@Jaime: That last point is why they fought so hard against it in the first place. They couldn’t accept another government program that helps people and that people like. Even a crippled one like the ACA gets people used to the idea that government should be involved in health care. And it’s worked. Consider the difference between the debate now about Obamacare isn’t working and they’re going to “improve it, versus the debate back in 2009/10 about how government shouldn’t be involved at all.
Oh, they knew it was bad. The idea was that if they just passed *something*, they could work something better out in conference with the House.
Ludicrous, trying to use something designed to reconcile small differences in House and Senate legislation to write a whole new bill, but hey, that’s 2017 America for you.
They were seriously trying to get assurances from Paul Ryan and the House that they wouldn’t approve the Senate bill in order to convince Senators to vote for it. That’s how crazy it’s gotten. “You need to pass this, but we know it’s horrible and promise it’ll never actually become law.” WTF?
*Hugs. All the hugs. I’m so sorry about all that’s going on right now.*
Agreed about Mary. She owns something big and scary that many of her fellow Christians don’t. And you are right that as a woman growing up in that culture it is not unlikely that she herself has been on the receiving end of harassment that was swept under the rug. Ryans preferred target wasn’t lost on her. I don’t think Joe’s list did her sense of security any favors either.
It fits neatly with her role as Joyce without her positive traits. Joyce is trusting to a fault. Mary isn’t.
On the bright side, they failed again. They may try again, but there doesn’t seem to be a path forward for repeal now.
And the military brass seem to be pushing back hard on Trump’s tweet about trans people in the military.
So there are glimmers of hope.
As for Amber and everyone’s desire to support her. I absolutely get the problems with forcing support on people, but on the other hand, she’s thinks everyone will think she’s crazy and be afraid of her and she really needs to know that’s not true.
Maybe a note or online contact? Respect her privacy, but let her know.
Rousing chorus of “For she’s a jolly good fellow” (or “For she’s a jolly good hero”?) just outside her door? Thank you cards/notes slipped under it? Pass the hat and buy a gift card for pizza and a thank you card and get everyone to sign it?
*hugs*
If it’s any consolation, the bill didn’t pass and the Pentagon has said, and I’ll paraphrase and translate from politic speak, “Fuck that shit. We aren’t changing our policy because of a goddamn fucking tweet. Give us an executive order in written format motherfucker. And even then, we’re gonna protect our current trans soldiers until a federal court strikes your dumbass order down and we can just ignore this idiocy ever happened!”
You know, I’d love for Mary to get a little character growth here. Even if all that happens is she just embraces her inner and outer bongo and drops the idea that she’s the moral right, and just hates everyone because she’s kind of a crappy person who just hates people then I’d like her character a bit more
…
And then mike would find her….and train her
Nah, she said ‘shit’ when she and Becky were visiting Joyce’s home after the fiasco with Mr. Macintire’s school shooting. She was whispering something to Becky through a door about her mother getting crazy and then Becky responded that Joyce’s mother was in the room with Becky and heard everything she just said, to which Joyce said ‘Shit” without time to think
Half the comments I’m reading are like, “Is Mary becoming a good person?” “Is she having character developement?” “Weird that she says something you can actually agree with” I thought is was just to highlight her raging hypocrisy and lack of self awareness, not signalling a change in character.
You know, I could’ve sworn there was some story book or other that had a story about this guy Joshua who said something about how it’s easier to notice a splint in another person’s eye than a beam in your own… I wonder if Mary’s ever read that book.
1st Century Judea was, by necessity, bilingual (Hebrew and Koine or ‘Common’ Greek, the lingua franca of the Eastern Mediterranean). Jesus would probably have been commonly known by both names as well as the title ‘Rabbi‘ (‘teacher’) with varying degrees of sincerity.
I don’t know, to me it looks like people around Joyce are all looking at her because they know that she used to be the kind of person who used religion to get away with some pretty bad things… And Joyce is aware of who she used to be too, and so I guess she tries to look at herself.
But looking at yourself isn’t really possible, and I guess that in the end, it may look like you’re rolling your eyes; especially in a still comic panel.
Wait is it captain marvel and not power rangers? I remember loving that he brought power rangers into short packed because I couldn’t relate with most of the transformers stuff at all
I choose to believe Mary has had no character development at all, and is just evincing a complete lack of self-awareness.
But now that I think about it has DoAverse Mary actually ever used her religion to justify being an asshole? She didn’t want to hang out with Dorothy and Sierra in Choosing My Religion after learning they were non-Christian, but that’s not evil. She used transphobic language against Carla, and blackmailed Billie and Ruth, which is evil, but she never connected it to her religion (she did tell Billie lesbianism was a sin, but that was more of an “I know” threat; Mary’s motivations for blackmailing Ruth were pretty clearly about giving Mary power)…
Huh….
Going through the archive, the more DoAVerse Mary’s thinking about Jesus, the *less* evil she’s tended to be, as she was content to go off to sulk in sadness when Robin was outed and when her burgeoning church group with Dorothy and Sierra fell apart. It’s when she’s thinking in secular terms about her own group status that she goes full Hitler.
I’m starting to think not. I’m sure that was hardly the first puppy she ate since the series began, and I have a hard time believing that this one just HAPPENED to sate her lust for evil this long when none of the others came close.
I have to admit I’m wrong. I expected Mary to always support evil when it evoked religion. Her moral scale, while still out of wack, is more nuanced than I thought.
Maybe Mary is displaying self-awareness. Over the three days, something happened to make her a better person and realize the error of her ways and now she’s changed a bit, but is trying to pretend the old her never happened.
So, when this comes up, she brings up something she did as a “some people” thing.
Mary is bipolar. She may also be manicdepressive. If this turns out to be true, i hope all of you admit your lack of sympathy for a mentality I’ll person.
Whatever the reason for Mary’s about face, she should be praised for it and encouraged to maintain it.
I’m the future, when wefind out what’s going on with her, i hope to post “called it!”
I’m comfortable having no sympathy for a transphobic piece of shit. Having a mental disorder doesn’t mean she gets to be a transphobic piece of shit for free.
Mary’s not hated for lashing out at people because she can’t control her emotions, she’s hated for overt transphobia and blackmail, attempts at controlling and gaining power over people that go far beyond inability to control her emotions in the moment. Hell, she’s been pretty good at controlling her emotions in the moment.
She’s not trying to do it to get people to -like- her, either. She’s doing it to get other people to do what she wants, pure and simple.
Sure, it can be a side effect of a disorder still. Control issues and all that.
Isn’t it weird how other, actual and not-guessed-at bipolar people DON’T HURL TRANSPHOBIA AT TRANS PEOPLE OR TAKE SATISFACTION IN THE SUICIDAL THOUGHTS OF OTHERS
Um no. I am bipolar and there is no way Mary is a good portrayal of bipolar behavior. In my experiences with bipolar mood swings they don’t change your personality and views they just give you temporary phases of euphoric elation and hamper your ability to think beyond the moment, as well as phases of depression that make you feel numb and bored with everything . they dont make you switch from cruel and scheming to self aware and rational on a dime. I mean obviously my description is colored by my own experience but i know what bipolar disorder doesn’t do. And it doesnt completly change your personality.
Even if she were she still deserves heavy critcism for her behavior. She hurt people and caused pain.
It seems like you’re looking for some kind of “gotcha” to shame people for being critical of Mary’s abusive behavior. Don’t throw mentally ill people under the bus for that.
This isn’t an “about face”. If Mary suddenly had realized how terrible her past actions were, she would be sobbing uncontrollably and too ashamed to show her face around the other people on her floor.
All she’s doing is putting on the appearance of being friendly. She’s yet to do a single thing to apologize to anyone she’s hurt, or show the slightest twinge of remorse.
Even if she HAS changed, or even if she WERE mentally ill (she’s definitely not, btw), that would excuse exactly none of her behavior.
But she’s not. We’ve ALREADY seen her feign politeness to Ruth, then IMMEDIATELY make it clear to Billie that she was going to get revenge against her. She’s simply being manipulative, we just don’t know what her angle is yet.
What I don’t get is why anyone thinks shes chsnged or is pretending to change. Despising a rapist attempted murderer seems completely consistent with her character and beliefs. I mean did people think she would consider going to the wrong church a serious moral failing but trying to stan someone outside her dorm was ok? Especially when its caught on video tape?
Damar, a Cardassian who is now part of the resistance against their Dominion “allies”, has just learned that his family has been killed as reprisal/punishment, and in his grief, asks how anyone could order the death of innocents.
Kira, a Bajoran who used to be part of the resistance against the Cardassian occupation, who did that kind of thing a lot, throws it in his face.
It’s worth noting that Kira has developed, since those days, enough to feel some remorse and sympathy afterward. But pragmatic Garak suggests that it is, in fact, exactly what Damar needs to hear at this stage in his own.
Yeah, I thought it would be Joyce who would charge in where others fear to tread when it comes to Amber! She may not be completely right in her suggestion as to what to do but I do agree that Amber shouldn’t be left alone right now.
Okay… So, either we can add ‘complete lack of self-awareness’ to Mary’s list of character flaws or… or… Okay, seriously, who are you and what did you do with the real Mary Bradford? I’m not interested in exposing you or making a criminal complaint, you understand. I just want to make sure that your story is rock-solid as we don’t want any complications at this stage when things are going so well!
I actually really hope that Joyce does talk to Amber. Amber sees herself as a “monster” right now; she needs to hear from someone who feels safer now that Ryan is “off the streets.” As I’ve said here before, I’m a firm believer in non-violence. However, Ryan was a violent menace to a LOT of people and Amber was defending herself and Dorothy. (We don’t know exactly what Amber did to Ryan yet, so I’m TOTALLY not commenting on whether or not the degree of violence she used was justified.) In the process, Amber also brought Joyce some much-needed closure. IMHO, Amber needs to be reminded of that.
I’ve shared before that I’ve experienced sexual assault and harrassment. However, I’ve never experienced what Joyce did – knowing that the person who assaulted you might be out there somewhere in your immediate vicinity and might *return* to assault you again. I can only imagine how terrifying that must be. To Joyce, Amber is a hero and Amber needs to be reminded of that. She can be a hero without having to be Amazi-Girl.
All that being said, I dearly hope that we see Amber getting some therapy (and perhaps medication) soon. She doesn’t seem to be in a good place right now. If she was a real person, I’d honestly be worried she might be thinking of hurting herself and I really hope that’s not where this story arc is going.
I don’t disagree that Ryan (probably) got what was coming to him, and that everyone is safe with him off the streets. But I submit that Amber’s problem isn’t so much with her violent actions.
Amber’s problems are the fact whatever she does is something she’ll use to attack herself. If Joyce said stabbing people was a good thing when they’re bad, Amber would just hear, “You enjoy stabbing people.”
Mary is a little too on the nose for my taste. I think Willis has a time machine, which is how she is making that statement on a week where transgender issues are in the forefront. Care to give me next Saturday’s Powerball numbers?
Well, at least she’s not defending Ryan because he’s the son of a pastor and taking his side. So there’s a small ray of discernment there. So, that’s good.
Huh, I just noticed that Mary’s last two outfits haven’t covered her wrists.
And now I wonder if she could have been another of Ryan’s victims, who wasn’t save from him. She would have been just as vulnerable as Joyce to his ‘nice preacher boy’ story, and the original version of her was at her very worst when she was trying to keep anyone from believing she was no longer “pure”, if it wasn’t even her own choice maybe she reacted by pushing even more to make sure no one could possible doubt that she was a strong faithful Christian who would never get pulled into any type of sinful ways. It would explain why she’s so happy now. (Not saying it would make her Maryness alright, mind you, she’s still a terrible person)
This is immediately what came to my mind and I’m surprised so few people have suggested it. The idea, if it is indeed what happened in the story, also makes me sick to my stomach.
I think it’s because it was buried so far back in the story. It was pretty much said from the time Mary was introduced that she had a traumatic experience with someone who pretended to be basically a saint.
Echoing Cass (and many others) that it still doesn’t justify being a “b-word” to people.
This is what am thinking, too. I am going through the comments backwards today. So, I actually commented much the same thing further down. I think that happening to her could have completely twisted her up and Amber vanquishing him could have set her free. What we might be seeing now is the “factory default settings” for Mary. It doesn’t excuse any of her behavior, but wow.
Am I the only one who reads Mary’s recent strange behaviour as being that she had some sort of personal stake in Ryan seeing justice? As in, she definitely knew him.
Either in the worst sort of way, or she knew him personally (same church?) and knew what he did but was somehow unable to do anything about it. (-> Son of her pastor??)
Maybe Mary has gone through something similar with Ryan or some Ryan type douche? It would kind of explain why she was super cheery earlier even though others assumed it was cause of her score on Joes list.
Though, actually if it was some other guy that would essentially bring up bad memories so maybe not.
Either way, I would really like to see Mary go through a redemption arc. This line here shows at least the possibility could exist….
Okay, is there something in the water? Mary is freaking me out! I could understand her being happy since its a natural emotion but a bad sign coming from her, because that’s to be expected of her. But now she’s rebuking Ryan for his connection to a pastor?! Did she meet the Dumbingverse version of Eric?! What is going on?!
I absolutely would not be surprised if finding a boyfriend (or at least a boy) is giving her this temporary elation and enlightened attitude of being nice to everybody.
The expressions in the last panel, I assume, are at the confluence of total shock and recognition of the blatant hypocrisy. There is a war waging in Joyce’s head, in particular, I think, between telling Mary to bugger off and agreeing with her surprising sentiment.
It suddenly occurs to me that Ryan never used his being a pastor’s son as a justification for anything. He used it at camouflage, to give himself a facade of righteousness and respectability but (apart from some weird behavioural quirks), he never claimed any religious justification for his actions.
But assuming he is Christian (which isn’t that much of a stretch), he’d still need to level his actions with his beliefs. Justifying them by reading selectively is an easy way to do so.
Not at all. The vast majority of those who label themselves as ‘Christian’ see no need to let that impact on their lifestyle beyond setting aside a few hours for church every week.
No, but he used being a Pastor’s son to get close to girls who were religious, and drug them, and rape them and I don’t even wish that on Mary and could see something like that twisting her up into a real fucking psycho.
In addition to this, it is also quite possible that he used his status to get away with what he did. After all, a pastor’s son can do no wrong, so anyone accusing him of someone must be lying, right?
Or his victims never bothered at all because they knew it was going to be an uphill battle in so many ways already; and him being a pastor’s son would make it downright impossible.
Could something that happened immediately before that time skip be the reason? Could the cause of Amber’s depressive state be the direct cause of Mary’s happiness?
Maybe, just maybe, could Willis be about to reveal a huge “FU” to all who ‘judged’ Mary for being a horrible person… without knowing what (who) “made” her into a horrible person…?
Eeehh. Sure, we might learn some awful shit from Mary’s backstory that will earn her sympathy despite her horrible actions, but like, her actions are still horrible and judge-worthy.
Commenters were, from day one, theorizing that Mary must have had horrible parents who brainwashed her into being a horrible person, and Willis’s response to that theory was that no, her parents were good people, and she just “learned all the wrong lessons” from church by herself.
Considering that, I really, really doubt that anything he ever reveals about Mary’s past will be “a huge ‘fu’ to all who ‘judged’ her”.
Not all horrible people are “made” horrible by people in their past. And we don’t base people on the basis of their pasts. we judge them on their actions.
Yes, Mary, he was the son of a pastor. And he bragged about having access to this dorm. I wonder who he could have known on the inside that would have let him in? And I wonder what lengths they might go to in order to keep other people from figuring that out?
He “found” someone’s key fob? He knows a guy who knows a girl in there? He’s skulked around long enough to figure out who’s dumb enough to fall for the “I want to surprise my girlfriend” or “I lost my key” bs? There are a lot of ways to get into a dorm you don’t belong in, trust me.
I’m still going with the theory that Mary was a previous victim of Ryan’s, and she’s acting all nice now because she knows he got his comeuppance. And unlike Joyce, she had no friends to come and save her.
Er, no, that part was true. It was something he used to get Joyce under his sway but from the way he was dropping bible verses throughout his appearances I also suspect it was a large part of his own self-identity.
I just keep going back to what Mary had said way back near the beginning of the strip. “If evil weren’t nice, nobody’d bother with it.” Look at her expression when she says that.
She’s not completely incapable of self-awareness; which, if that IS an expression meant to convey something negative, could range from a dark memory like others have implied to something more like the fact that she kinda totally masturbates to anime Reagan (or at least with anime Reagan somewhere nearby as her drawing of the guy apparently featured in her solo slipshine re:willis).
But my takeaway was her face is important but not because of her expression. (Which honestly, on its own that is an facial expression she has worn frequently when expressing judgement, not pain. Even the slightly upturned eyebrows are a feature she wears a lot, in addition to scowling and brow-raising disbelief, when she’s arguing from the “high and mighty” position because Mary feels violated and done injustice often by others not automatically deferring her superiority).
I think that panel’s important because she’s saying those words about legitimately nice people saying perfectly reasonable and good things that she does not believe in and so she wants Joyce to, as of course she should, immediately abandon them as a morally superior person does. Then Joyce makes her decision and Mary leaves with judgement passed and her face is fully cast in shadow for the first time. Shadowed faces can mean a lot of things in DoA for dramatic effect, but it happening on that moment was essentially a villain reveal.
My theory is that the only personal revelation that Mary has had is that she needs to make an effort to convince people in general that she’s actually a good person if she expects to get away with being truly nasty to specific people like Billie and Ruth.
I think there is a good chance of that, though I also suspect it could be just that something (boyfriend? hookup?) in her personal life is making her happy enough to actually feel like being sanctimonious and loving the sinners around her despite inwardly remaining 100% convinced they’re all going to hell.
People who are manipulative and self-centered can often learn how to be friendly. In the book “How To Win Friends and Influence People” is a classic, and while it was written with good intentions (to help shy, socially anxious people overcome social phobias) it has also become sort of a “Manipulation 101” manual.
All the advice in it are things like, “People like compliments; try to give someone a genuine compliment at least once in a conversation. Listen to them to hear what they value in themselves.” Or, “People like questions that show interest in their personal life but aren’t *too* personal. Try asking how their pets are doing, or their opinion on a recent sporting event or popular film.” And, “Remember people’s answers so that you have a place to continue the conversation later. If someone expresses a worry about something upcoming to you, ask after it the next time you see them. For instance, ‘Hey, how did that test go?'”
Which seems like normal, semi-obvious conversational advice. Which means the two kinds of people who really like the book are people who are socially phobic and tend to freeze up in social situations, and people with a serious lack of empathy and a desire to manipulate.
By the end of the book, which also talks about body language and non-verbal cues and so on, pretty much anyone can become someone most other people feel good around.
I suspect Mary has begun to learn a bit of this. Learning pro-social conversational patterns does not, in any way, equate to being less mean or manipulative.
I figure it’s just good old-fashioned obliviousness. Mary is a cruel person in the service of her beliefs, but I doubt she thinks of herself as “using her faith to justify” anything.
I’m guessing from Mary’s perspective, she doesn’t need to use her faith to justify her bigotry because from her perspective, it’s not bigotry. Her actions are already justified because she’s just calling out people who indulge in unchristian behaviour. Rape and attempted murder however is something even she recognizes as unchristian behaviour and as such she sees the bongo formerly known as Ryan as someone who (not at all like her) abuses their faith to justify unchristian behaviour.
I’m not trying to defend Mary’s hypocrisy. I’m just trying (against my better judgement) to think of a way she could actually be serious when she says something like that. Because don’t I buy for a second that she is serious. I think Fart Captor a few posts up explained perfectly what she’s really doing.
A part of me wonders over time whether the point of Mary will, as more and more readers call for her getting a “redemption” arc as they have from Day 1 through Day Worst, be showing us that, yes, a bad person taking positive steps or showing sympathetic qualities is not necessarily and of course will not always be the same thing as a good person making mistakes in the process of growth.
That partly what Rachel said is true. Because some people make mistakes, but some people in taking the same actions are only giving you glimpses of hope, small pieces of enlightenment gained but then lost perhaps even unwittingly to manipulate you and / or themselves into wanting to believe they will end up in a better place to judge their own behaviors. And that you should preemptively give them the benefit of the doubt. And that you do not reserve the right to wait for time to tell.
And if that turns out to be the case, maybe starting here with so many bursts of uncharacteristic behavior…perhaps this Mary in addition to displaying so far characteristics of a mean and hungry sociopath also has in her the Mary from Roomies! The Mary that owned up to her wrongdoings, once—who flatly admitted (to BILLIE, of all people) to getting an abortion after her first pregnancy despite Mary’s ‘previous’ self being the type to preach and find it reprehensible it reprehensible and then learning to empathize—and then over time simply lost this ground of understanding only to repeat all her same reprehensible actions over again, so that the glimpses of better developments sadly faded back from whence they came and became the “mistakes” themselves when her hypocrisy doubled down. Which is why I always questioned but now honestly believe Roomies!Mary is perhaps the worse of the two universes’, to date, for remaining a villain thereafter. Because until now as much as I think of DoA Mary as the worst, she has never yet tugged my heartstrings or given me the impression she could do better against my better judgement the way her former incarnation did. And I think the falsely earned (or rather, looked-for) sympathy story; i.e., the true-to-life version of the “redemption is a story” story, to a character where it actually applies? Is one that Willis may have a lot to write about if he ever so chooses, with so many people pulling excuses out of their ass for not just Mary but for every Blaine and Toedad and Ryan that so much as threatens a person with bodily harm in this strip despite them not doing a damn thing to atone for it.
Because even if they showed remorse, even if Mary can feel remorse (and this is the first time I have even found myself questioning whether she had a conscience, because DoA Mary never gave a glimpse of one until this storyline), and even if we find that out, it isn’t the guilt that makes something that happened or will happen a mistake on a person’s part. It’s the understanding and especially the real acknowledgement, the living and breathing and continued admittance, that the thing done was done was wrong. That is what separates a person making mistakes and learning from them (which, everyone on the cast page is and what the webcomic is about) different from a person that has done wrong things and yet is not on or headed toward redemption but on the road of good intentions that maybe were never so good to begin, or so intended.
And unlike the rest of the cast Mary is someone both established and awful that could feasibly in-story gain a certain level of new understanding, or even just pretend to, and then let it go again. And then not look back. And be a villain. Because a person with reasonably human, sympathetic qualities or their own stories or mysteries is not always or willing or ready or, in a worst-case scenario, able to be redeemed. A person that says and does and learns and experiences better things than what they knew previously is not always or even often as devoted or willing as Joyce has been to taking them to heart if hypothetically presented with the same opportunities.
That for people whose main prerogative in life is not to gain knowledge, but to be assured they have it so they can use it to victimize or even just think themselves as being better than others…redemption IS a story.
It could be, of course, but if I had to guess carefully at this time, I would say, no, redemption is not real. Not for Mary. It’s a story that among the comments you might say people like to read, but despite part of me wanting to see her as not evil I don’t think these flashes of insight and niceness are ever or somehow potentially going to make Mary not the thing she was before. Because what that Mary wants more than anything is not justice or righteousness (far from it!) but to be better than other people. And despite how good “learning” and “progress” might feel for her at this stage if she is indeed making some kind of visible effort to “be better” in front of others and riding the high of some new enlightenment or other…these two goals are ultimately not compatible. She has to “learn” that she is equal to others and vice versa. She has to “learn” to be sorry instead of grasping at hypocrisy to refuse admitting wrongdoing.
I mean, who knows, maybe she’ll take Rachel’s wrongly directed words to heart in the long run and become another protagonist. Anything’s possible. But I’d bet a lot more on Robin getting a redemption than ever Mary.
There was an episode of the British TV sitcom Drop the Dead Donkey where a previously-vinegary TV news anchorwoman suddenly became all hearts and flowers overnight and it later emerged that she was pregnant. It became a very bittersweet story because she suffered a miscarriage and some of the characters (to whom she had previously been highly antagonistic) had to help her through it.
I’m wondering if Willis is planning something like this? Mary has had something tremendously good happen to her and is on a high because of that. Then, maybe, it will be taken away from her and, ironically, it will be Carla, Billie and Ruth who are there for her at the darkest moment in her life.
Mary’s still being kinda nice. I’m a little scared. Unless the theory that Mary was one of scardouche’s victims is accurate. Then I feel sorry for her.
Am I the only one who feels the need to MENTION that Joyce said, “Shithead”?? Wasn’t she, at last check, only using swears that included damn and g-damn?
“Tonight, on Animal Attacks: An Indiana student is mobbed to death by huge flocks of magpies and jackdaws, attracted by the impossibly shiny mirror she was holding!”
I know what they are trying to do, and while she did put a criminal out of the streets she took it to far, she needs psyquiatric help , it would have been better for her to take a sabatical leave to get better
She needs psychiatric help, yes, but not because of what she did to Ryan. She didn’t take it too far. This narrative that you have to hold back when defending yourself from an armed, unprovoked attacker needs to die a swift and painful death.
Depends – from her persona and history, it’s pretty apparent she lost control. In a dangerous way. Much like she did when she was fighting Blaine.
We don’t know how much damage she actually did and that’s not really the issue. She’s got an uncontrolled berserker rage thing going and that’s not good.
Yes but I don’t think Ethan is the type to just run off when he gets a text without saying “Hey Amber texted me I’m going to go check on her” or something.
I dunno, that’s probably the case, but I’m hoping they were hanging out and having religious debates again > w<
hmm. amber turning down the transformer eventually reminded me that I still feel like I owe a friend for not risking my life to save his pager in high school. and a bunch of other silly things. yay self-awareness!
it’s like… I’m more aware of the purpose behind social things that I can’t manage to do, so my brain was trying to be all “o noes you’re not perfect, that means you’re horrible and nobody should put up with you” which is obvious bullshit when put into words, but much sneakier when it’s lurking in shadowy corners of my brain… not only that, but, that kind of thinking actively hinders me from solving the problems it identifies. exactly the kind of bullshit anxiety tries to trap me in so I’ll never try to do things.
and I think the answer to that is… sorta… no we don’t want to ignore those problems (if they actually *are* problems), but neither do we want the bullshit “solutions” anxiety provides. we want a middle path. using compassion and boundaries to change the things that need changing, instead of attempting fight/flight/freeze against ourself. and holy crap does that take a lot of compassion. so it’s something to do in small doses at first, like weightlifting – you need to give the body the time and resources to heal and grow stronger, to grow that well of compassion the way muscles are grown. and some days you’re not well enough to manage it, and that’s ok. rome wasn’t built in a day and all that.
take a moment to think of just
flexibility, love and trust…
Geez, Mary, are you saying ALL Christians are rapists?! Nice straw-man! This Mary person is obviously a knee-jerk atheist who knows nothing about Christian culture!
Sort of a weird tangent, but I’m wondering if there exists a religion or philosophy out that *does* justify rape according to its own parameters.
Like, okay, if you were to make a list of all rapists in the world, I’m certain you’d find at least one adherent to each religion or secular philosophy represented. Some would be over-represented, probably (maybe nihilists? idk). But, at the same time, raping a stranger at a party would be considered immoral, I suspect, by the standards of morality in pretty much every ethical framework in existence.
Which leads to sort of a conundrum, or maybe just a hard limit of ethics in general (religious or otherwise): is it just impossible to make people internalize an ethic if they’re not already inclined to follow it? If 99% of ethical frameworks agree raping a stranger is wrong, yet there are still many people who clearly feel like that doesn’t apply to them, is there any way to fix the problem?
I mean, ideally, prevent the problem before it happens, not simply punish the person afterwards.
Looks like self-awareness is still a sin, eh, Mary?
On another site – No Longer Quivering – we’ve got some quotes from people in a similar fundamentalist Christian culture; long story short, every one of the featured authors is severely lacking in self-awareness.
I’ve seen the main woman who began NLQ interviewed on other sites (secular feminist magazines and so on). It seemed like she was doing important work, but I did get a bit teary just reading the interview so I didn’t click through to the rest of the site.
Are the featured authors lacking self-awareness because they’re speaking out against spiritual abuse but still condoning other kinds of abuse? Or what’s the main issue you’re seeing that’s problematic?
I suppose I should just go through and read it myself :/ I was considering adding it as a resource on a local domestic violence website, but if there are too many pro-abuse stories on there I probably shouldn’t.
She’s planting seeds. She’s playing the long con. She’s getting on everybody’s good side so they don’t hate HER more than they hate RUTH the next time Mary tries some evil bullshit.
I’m not sure what you’d call this kind of action, it’s not really gaslighting, not really plausible deniability, but a weird, distorted mix of the two. There’s probably a term for it but I’m not sure. They’re not going to be doubting their own sanity, but doubting that they KNOW Mary is an evil douchebag. So not quite gaslighting.
When she pulls her revenge off on Ruth and Billie down the road, and Billie spills what Mary did/tried to do, by then everybody will have been used to the “new” Mary. And no one will back Ruth or Billie up(maybe almost nobody at least, somebody might swoop in if Willis wants to give us a happy almost ending to that plot line, maybe Joyce, maybe Carla, maybe Rachel, who knows).
It’s why she’s laying this shit on so thick, even on Carla. Prancing around in a white dress all sing-songy and happy and smiles. That didn’t just fucking HAPPEN.
The last time we saw her before this white dress thing happened she was literally grinning evilly at Billie and telling her she has something to lose.
lmao still @ like sorry but one last thing b/c all these comments speculating over mary’s deal last few days and whether it has to do with ryan personally or some master plan of evil, etc. and like
one last comment now that i am just sitting here giggling at these theories on mary getting out of control (my own included) because come on guys, it could be some master plan or history with ryan OR MAYBE hey so you know what else makes people nice and cheery, girl got laid.
prolly mary just had an awesome-fucking friday night w/pun intended and the endorphin high is riding her high enough that she…gasp…feels like being nice to the sinners for a change!!
because why not? love the sinner, hate the sin; all that, god will send them to hell in good time! good morning songs! sunshine and rainbows!! she’ll even pay a compliment to the [insert awful slur here] and well gee shit there was a religious dude who did a…uh, a sin thing the other day. and oh shit maybe the others might suspect that mary, the holiest one, might also be capable of–IT’S AMAZING HOW PEOPLE WILL USE THEIR FAITH TO JUSTIFY ANYTHING YOU GUYS BUT MAN I SURE DO BELIEVE THAT IS BAD AND I WOULD NEVER WANT TO
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“so what are YOU trying to justify, you sack of wet badgers”
Hey now.
The badgers didn’t deserve that comparison.
What about the mushrooms, or the snake?
Both are actually enjoyed by people, Mary on the other hand…
Even Mary could be enjoyed, with the right marinade. ftftftftftft.
Everything tastes better with ketchup but consuming Mary may cause indigestion, upset stomach, diarrhea, bloating, gas…
I think Mary could use a good consumption
mary-nade?
The mushrooms, maybe… But the snakes? they’re not even that low…
On Wisconsin!
And she was all happy and friendly earlier.
Maybe she took a heavy blow to the head off-panel somewhere?
I’m thinkin gas leak.
We can only hope. Bludgeoning the far-right is cool and good, and it should be done more often.
Hey hey hey.
Let me edit that.
Bludgeoning the shitheads is all well and good.
Don’t leave any out. The far right aren’t the only ones who need a good clubbing with a crowbar.
The far right, maybe, but right leaning? Not so much…
The far right? Why does everyone always assume the conservatives are consistently the enemy. Wasn’t LBJ the one who pushed his “guns and butter” policies, further entrenching us in Vietnam? Wasn’t it Jimmy Carter who crashed our economy and promoted the “crisis of confidence”, followed by the Iran hostage crisis (which we had to clean up with the Iran Contra scandal)?
This is the one complaint I have for this webcomic: there’s too much of this fascist liberal propaganda, comparing conservatives to fascists (which has been going on since at least the counter-culture movement of the 60s).
If the politics were taken out of the Ryan arc (which is more than reasonable, seeing how Ted Bundy gave OSU’s campus a run for it’s money).
Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of fundamentalist religious nuts and warhawks who wear Wal-Mart American flag t-shirts, and they tow an overly-simplified view of federalist, conservative, and libertarian positions. However, to outright attack anyone of a conservative bent is ridiculous.
Certainly, the story could be even more interesting if Joyce’s transformation as a growing, independent woman involved finding a blend of Judeo-Christian fundamentals, the Greek empirical philosophers, and elements across the political spectrum that fit her personal truth. Why not make her take a few philosophy courses?
Because today it’s conservatives who want to dump millions of people off of health care just to give rich people a tax break.
It’s conservatives who fought to block same sex marriage.
It’s conservatives who want to force transgender people to use the wrong bathroom, forbid them from competing in athletics while in school, and bar them from serving in the military.
It’s conservatives who maintain that the Constitution doesn’t protect against discrimination against LGBT people. They’re the ones voting down laws aimed at making that protection explicit.
It’s conservatives insisting that our law enforcement agencies and local police don’t need to change, despite all of the innocent people getting murdered by them, with the perpetrators going free because they have a badge.
It’s conservatives insisting we need to ban refugees and immigrants based on their religion, while insisting that it’s Christianity that’s under attack.
It’s conservatives who are declaring science itself as their enemy, because they want to keep their heads in the sand about climate change, happy to let future generations suffer. And because they want THEIR views on evolution and sex ed to be taught as fact.
Nobody is vilifying them. They’re doing it to themselves.
What health care? What the states has is mandatory Health Insurance.
Medicare is where the money should have gone instead of into the pockets of the middlemen [aka the 0.1%]
Peoples Lives are literally being held ransom by Speculative Investors these days.
Also the whole “It’s conservatives” thing …. ugh.
I am a conservative, ie fiscally restrained etc etc responsible government etc etc.
What most call conservative in the United Staes of America is a full blown 1984 double-think with some Brazil, Clockwork Orange mixed in like some weird kind of Koolaid.
It is full blown dysfunctional corporate fascism and it looks to be getting worse in all sectors of society and the economy.
Even by their own estimates, not ONE version of the bill they’re trying to pass would have INCREASED access to care. The best estimate would have “only” uninsured 10 million people. Nobody denies that what we have now isn’t good enough, but it’s sure as hell better than what the GOP has been proposing.
If it weren’t for conservatives – or “conservatives” if that’s easier on your delicate feelings – we would have had single payer back in 2010. If you’re not like them, that’s fucking wonderful.
John McCain holds the ideas I’d define as conservatism and he just gave a massive middle finger to the Republican Party. Conservatism is not about denying rights and discriminating against others, it is about ensuring that each step taken is the correct one and being respectful of the level of power that government has over private citizens.
Remember also that you are biased. There are many good things that conservatives do to promote job growth, enable the country to thrive, and protect the rights of certain groups. You just don’t think about them because you’re focused on the groups they don’t protect and the people they don’t promote. Guess what honey – conservatives are in the same boat. It’s 100% perspective.
You and others who agree with your little diatribe there need to go and meet real conservatives and TALK TO THEM. You CANNOT have a deep understanding of someone’s political beliefs from a BULLET POINT LIST WRITTEN BY SOMEONE WHO HATES THE SUBJECT MATTER. Imagine if I tried to delineate trans rights in the same way you just scathingly denounced everything that “conservatives” believe. Spoiler: I’d get banned.
Note that this digression started with damning the “far right”, which was blurred neatly into “conservatives are being blamed”.
Problem is, it’s that far right that’s dominating conservative politics these days. Get me a sane moderate conservative party and we can talk. (By many standards of course, we already have one. It’s called the Democratic Party.)
Lol, oh my god. Shush.
I have personally argued against the idea that ALL conservatives are bad, and that conservatism is inherently bad on this very site. I’m well aware that there are many conservatives who voted for Hillary because they preferred a president they disagreed with over one who was unfit for office.
But I was responding to Chris, and they were the one who saw “the far right” and equated it with ALL conservatives. I was explaining the things actual conservatives are doing which cause people to have negative reactions to them.
Chris was also the one complaining about “fascist liberal propaganda, comparing conservatives to fascists”. Without irony, somehow. I’m still laughing about that.
Btw, that comparison is a dramatically false equivalence. People don’t choose to be trans. There aren’t millions of trans people out there who voted a bigot into office who is actively trying their damnedest to harm marginalized people.
I will totally concede the “not all conservatives” point, but holy crap, have some self-awareness. Conservatism is a political ideology, not some oppressed minority group, ffs
“honey”? you’re starting to get rude and condescending. could you, like… not?
Hey, BigGuy, here’s an idea: my dad and my stepmom proudly support every one of the items on Captor’s bullet point list. How about you come over to their house and explain to them exactly how they do not qualify as “real conservatives?”
According to you, everyone I have ever met in real life that identifies as a conservative is not a “real” conservative. So, where do I have to go to meet these “real” conservatives in-person?
When have republicans ever done anything to promote job growth. And no, giving tax breaks to rich people, and trying to get rid of minimum wage would NOT promote job growth.
When have republicans actually helped the economy in the past thirty years? Since the record shows that over and over, it’s republicans who screw up the economy worldwide. Republican states tend to be worst off economically, exactly because it’s a proven fact that republican ideas on the economy do NOT work.
I just…I just have to ask. Was this intentionally ironic or…or somethign else?
>…there’s too much of this fascist liberal propaganda, comparing conservatives to fascists
What if it’s Mary’s not evil twin?
Like from Spirited away!
It could be, maybe she is like Goku: one huge hit and she forgot she was supposed to destroy humanity.
I have a theory about Mary and Rapist D-Bag that would not be pleasant at all, but may explain her happiness since D-Bag got stabbed.
She is secretly strangling a puppy behind her back
And her kindness will continue tapering off until said puppy has been devoured.
In TWIN PEAKS: THE RETURN which is AWESOME, btw, they have Cooper escape the Black Lodge to go after his doppelganger has been wrecking havoc for 25 in his body. Given this is multiverse, it makes sense Original Mary has either been replaced or became her original self a.k.a Good Mary. I assume that Evil Mary has been returned to the dimension from which she came.
Is that what Cooper’s been doing? Huh. In the version I’ve been watching, he’s just been stumbling around with a dazed look on his face and repeating the last few words that anyone says to him.
I believe David Lynch is having revenge on his audience for FIRE WALK WITH ME by saying, “So, you wanted back Cooper? Well, here is he, except he won’t actually be back until Episode 18 and probably in the last 2 minutes!” I’m ready to riot about the lack of Audrey too.
It was startling at first but I’m enjoying TP’s slow burn nature. Plus, the craziness is really ramping up.
My favorite moment so far was the Mystery of the Golden Shovels which turned out to be a scam to bilk conspiracy theorist listeners out of their money.
That was pretty goofy. It’s the little absurdities I appreciate.
Um. Spoilers?
It’s in the first episode. David Lynch is crazy that way.
Her butt?
I hate Mary even more here. Just. So much. She’s planning something.
You’re severely overreacting. She’s literally doing nothing but condemning a rapist, right now.
… with a soupcon of hypocrisy in the “Using their faith to justify anything” part, though it’s a stretch to say Ryan.was doing that, more like using his association with a trusted authority figure (in the abstract as we know.nothing of his father, the father) to con his way into a position of advantage to exploit.
I thought “soupçon” was some newfangled made-up jargon. Naturally, it’s just French.
Actually, all French is newfangled jargon. They do it to mess with people.
There is actually no such country as France. The so-called “French” pretend there is and then giggle en masse when our backs our turned, at how epically they’re trolling the rest of the world.
I mean, the escargot thing was a dead giveaway, and they still can’t believe that nobody caught on.
Nah. That’s just a distraction from the fact that the American continent never existed. Columbus actually did hit Japan when he sailed west, and all “Americans” actually live in some unknown region of Siberia and have made up an entire country.
I mean, it’s not like they even bothered to make up an actual culture to go with the country, so that’s a dead giveaway.
There once was a snail that loved to race cars. When he was old enough, he bought a car and painted a big “S” on it, so that everyone would know that the snail was driving a really fast car. Over time, people would point at the snail’s car as it sped by and say “Look at that S Car Go.”
Sorry, I had to.
“Actually, all French is newfangled jargon.”
It really is. Charlemagne hated it, and complained that he wished people would speak proper Latin or Frankish (which sounded like a really archaic form of Dutch) instead of that weird degenerate hybrid.
To be fair all languages are newfangled jargon.
And I’m not sure it was Charlemagne who wanted latin/frankish. More his scholars, if I remember it well enough from Saenger’s Space between words.
She’s blind to her own hypocrisy.
That just seems so…likely.
That always makes me worry about what I’m overlooking in myself.
*agos*
that’s why it’s important for everyone to reflect on their actions now and then. just, remember that amber’s way is not a healthy way
human imperfections are generally better solved with kindness, compassion and sane boundaries, *especially* when dealing with your own mind.
I had the idea now that she found out about Stabface and it put a bit of a shock into her, finding out that a pastor’s son could go so wrong, and she’s had some insight into her own failings as a follower of her faith. And trying first to fix herself before trying to apologize for her meanness of spirit.
Maybe it could happen! On this Day Of Great Devotion, I want to see the good in people.
(Thirty years ago, Rick Astley promised he was never going to give us up or let us down, and he’s kept to that.)
I was all prepared to be mad after her first sentence and now I’m just confused again.
Yeah, me too. I was here thinking “Oh, she’s gonna defend him.”
First she was nice to Carla, and now this.
She must be on some new meds.
Ah damn, Mary flipped the script! Script flip!
Seriously wondering what’s up with Mary at this point.
Maybe she saw the stabbing and got traumatized?
Nar, she’s been weird since before that. It seemed like it was joy at what happened to Ruth at first, but hasn’t there been a week since that happened now? Mary acting decent is freaking me the hell out!
I think it was half a week – about three days was the time jump, wasn’t it?
But yeah, she has been like that before that, so something has to be up.
Either she’s up to something, or every pastor in town has asked her to put a sock in it because she’s driving down their attendance.
That seemed to be forced-nice from Billie, at least imo. She was evilly gleeful last chapter about Ruth’s return, but this seems different. The being nice to Carla could be part of a nefarious scheme (since Carla’s been one of her targets previously), but this doesn’t fit as well.
She became self-aware and knows she’s in a webcomic now, and wants to ruin the webcomic by removing all drama and solving everyone’s problems.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day
Wow, you don’t say.
Ahh yes, the old bad person says agreeable thing but that doesn’t make you hate the bad person less, because no one is 100% evil but coming out of them, it doesn’t feel good at all
She’s saying that with a straight face, and I’m mostly confused. It’s coming off as more of a lack of self-awareness to me. But, I’ve been historically thrown off by that type of thing often with manipulators, so take that with a grain of salt i suppose.
Mary best character? Is that what’s about to happen?
I doubt it, but still she could try to fix her mistakes by stopping being a jerk.
What, just now? I guess everyone’s a late adopter for something.
N…No? Not at all?
It’s a trick. Get an axe.
A Paul Reed Smith Santana?
I got that. I am so proud of myself.
Agh, the lack of self awareness is creating a singularity, escape while you can!
Oh, shut the hell up, Mary.
Bit uncalled for.
mary was replaced with a skrull!
Good.
Now I’m conflicted. Because if Mary was replaced by a Skrull that’s a good thing I dislike Mary. But Skrulls are also evil beings seeking to invade Earth. But I think the Skrulls are probably an improvement from Mary
Hostile alien takeover, or one unpleasant college girl? That’s a tough comparison.
It can be difficult to tell one from the other, I’ll grant you that.
The Skrulls’ god is a fair sight worse than Fundie Light Bulb.
There’s been at least two skrulls and a half-skrull IIRC that weren’t evil, which suggests that the evil thing is not an inherent trait, but rather the percieved norm based on the perspectives of non-skrulls and the actions of skrull leaders and military.
I, for one, welcome our new Skrull overlords.
On a Doyleist versus Watsonian approach, is the character of Mary better being a one-dimensional fundamentalist stooge who represents all that’s worst in religion or is it better that she might be able to re-evaluate her life or show layers? I don’t want Mary to be ever justified for her treatment of Carla and transphobia but I admit I wonder if Willis could redeem her like Ruth despite Mary being a bigot versus “just” a bully.
Nothing will ever, ever justify the way she treated Carla and Ruth. But, were this real life and not a comic, well–occasionally people change, see the error of their ways and become better people.
I don’t think we’ll see that happen here though, it’d need more time than we have. I doubt we’ll ever even see the end of freshman year.
Mind you, we have had Ruth and now presumably Joe change. The title is about the mistakes people make and how they cope with them. Robin, for example, TRIED to change and just found out it wasn’t possible. She didn’t even get a heroic moment where she proved instrumental in taking down Not-Ryan. HOWEVER, she did TRY.
You hit on something here that’s pretty interesting to me: I feel like Ruth’s apology session in particular deserves analysis in the context of the comic as a whole.
Ruth and Joe aren’t anywhere near the nature or magnitude of Mary’s awfulness, and even then, neither changed in a day. Joe has barely changed at all yet.
Mary’s awfulness came from hateful beliefs so entrenched that she actually got angry at Billie for suggesting that she should feel bad nearly bullying Ruth to suicide. So entrenched that when the entire floor turned on her for that, she was actually surprised. So entrenched that she immediately announced her intention of resuming that bullying the same day Ruth got back from the hospital.
Simply getting to the point where she might accept the possibility that she may have done anything bad would be a dramatic shift in her personality. Actually getting to the point of becoming a decent person would require years for her.
Maybe she can manage becoming less evil, but I’m not gonna hold my breath
I feel it’s better to show people getting better rather than just always being assholes. Her treatment of Carla was very familiar to me – in some ways I’m very similar to Jocelyn- but people I knew that reacted poorly to my coming out have since become better people.
(Incidentally, CT, I love your work.). (Willis, yours to.). (I wish I had time to write.)
Cool! Thank you! Working on three new books now.
I mean, we had points in the Walkyverse where Mary appeared to be heading for redemption, although it never seemed fully established. And it took years, in a fictional universe whose passage of time matched our own.
Even then, “Fundamentalist Girl stops being so judgemental” is already part of Joyce’s character in this universe, so it might be redundant for Mary to take that path.
Of course, it could be framed as an Accountability Arc, where Mary isn’t really redeemed but instead acknowledges that she’s done terrible things and must accept that people won’t immediately welcome her with open arms. Although we’re already getting plenty of that with Ruth, Joe and Robin.
This has occurred to me too, since I’d love to see a character development arc for Mary. I think Willis could put a great deal of complexity into her character without necessarily going for either redemption or accountability. Then again, it’d be interesting to see how exactly an accountability arc might play out. After all, it’s… well, it’s Mary, for crying out loud.
Though I do agree that it is possible Mary has gone through some character development, I think it much more likely that she’s just against rape. You can be a terrible bigot and still have some reasonable opinions about right and wrong. You wouldn’t expect her to support a serial killers, for example, just because they go to church.
That’s what I’d be more interested in seeing. It’s quite possible for a villain to become more than one-dimensional, while still staying a villain.
Is it possible for a bigot to pull their head out of wherever it was previously lodged and become a better person? Absolutely. Do I believe it happened off-panel? No. Why would Willis spontaneously change a character’s personality when he could have the change happen on-panel and milk it for tasty, tasty drama?
A lot of this webcomic is about people realizing that they are wrong about either other people or their beliefs. They grow and learn through this realization and dealing with it.
Now if trying to put the audience through such an experience, Mary could be the best candidate.
Is Mary aware of the words that are coming out of her face hole?
I have never wanted anyone to suffer the same fate they did in the Walkyverse as I do Mary.
*breaks a record of “Along Comes Mary”*
*looks for something else to play*
*remembers it was U2 playing last time Mary was on-screen*
*sets U2 collection on SHUFFLE*
I suggest “Jesus he knows me”.
Thank you for the earworm!
How about “The Pot,” by Tool.
Mary’s broken. Someone call the Christian repair department!
Bah, they’re useless. All they do is pray for their imaginary spirit to do the work, then protest outside your house when it doesn’t work.
And if all else fails, they’ll throw the book at the problem. Just chuck the Bible straight at their head. Concussions make brainwashing easier.
Okay, what is going on? Did someone kidnap Mary and brainwash her? If that happened, we need to know who did it so we can properly celebrate their heroism.
What if it was Ryan?
In that case, “celebrate their heroism” will quickly become a new favorite euphemism among the DoA readership.
The sentence: “We celebrated him right off the roof.” just passed through my mind.
She’s back on her meds.
If that was the case it would put her character in a whole new perspective. I would say that Ruth should have known that Mary needed to be on medication, but I could totally see Ruth blowing off looking through the students files
Ooh, that’s… entirely possible. She does seem to be concealing cut wrists, so it’s entirely possible that she’s been having mental health issues thus far.
Of course her wrists are cut. How else was she gonna get the data drive out?
She’s not wearing anything on her wrists.
Ah, didn’t notice the outfit ditched the wristbands.
No, we’ve seen her wrists.
We really haven’t, though. Not enough for us to be sure she isn’t hiding something. I just went back through all the comics tagged “Mary,” and the only times she’s been without her wristbands were when she was wearing a long-sleeved shirt and a shirt with long-ish sleeves. Maybe that counts? Cuts heal; if she was trying to stop, she might have made it to a point that they were subtle enough to wear three-quarter sleeves.
Either way, I don’t know if it means anything specific, or if I just missed something, but…she wears them when she brushes her teeth. The time Billie walked in on her when Mary was in her underwear, the only other clothes Mary had on were her wristbands. So I don’t know.
Actually, no, I don’t see Ruth skipping reading student’s files. And we know she read Billies (therefore knowing Billie was alcoholic).
That, and if you want a reputation for being Ruthless, it does help to have as much information you can on your floor.
In any case, Mary would not in a million years be “on meds” for displaying bigoted behaviour; because said behaviour is perfectly acceptable and even encouraged in her local society.
And even if it wasn’t accepted, there aren’t any serious reports claiming that bigotry is in itself a psychiatric condition that needs psychiatric style treatment.
And I’m saying all this knowing that jeffep most likely just meant to make an offhand joke comment. Because if there’s one thing I’m good at, it’s killing jokes by deconstructing them completely.
Maybe her last “praying to Jesus” session triggered such a strong orgasm she is still tripping on the endorphins.
JOYCE SAID A WORD
Awwwwwhyeah, paladin Joyce is best Joyce. Friend is all torn up inside? (Well, understatement, but) This will not stand! Help friend!
Granted, Joyce is in no way qualified to give the kind of help Amber needs, but it’s a good impulse. And maybe being told she did a really good thing will…help somewhat?
The steely look just makes it, too.
(Also eeeeeeeeeee she’s hanging out with Jacob my otp)
WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MARY!!!!!!
She quit being intolerable for five seconds. Shocker, I know, but people can do that.
She has before, I would be much more weirded out if Blaine started acting nice.
I’m thinking she realized that she was on everyone’s shit list, and needs to put on a facade of decency before she can get away with crap again.
Well hello there, Pot. You’re looking mighty black today.
That sound you heard was the irony of her own words flying over Mary’s head at Mach 3.
I’m not sure what Amber needs is to be lauded for slashing up Ryan, even though I’m with Dorothy in that, intellectually, I’m all with her having gone all Jason Voorhees.
Absolutely she does. It’s thinking she’s nothing but a rage monster that’s tearing her apart now. She needs to know that not only are they grateful for what she did, but they’re not afraid of the “crazy stabby girl”, like Mike was so kind as to reinforce in her brain.
And we see that here: They’re not afraid of her, they’re grateful and concerned.
I’m still wondering what the fuck is going on with Mary. Did she get replaced with her good clone or something?
That would explain the white.
Good lord, they whitewashed the white girl! They know not what they do.
Mary’s the best character in this comic now! She’s become self aware!
Personal experience!
Skynet became self-aware too AND LOOK WHAT HAPPENED (or didn’t) .
Honestly this strikes me more as a staggering display of a LACK of self-awareness than anything
Seriously, seriously, WHAT THE FUCK IS UP WITH MARY?
I need to know this.
Also, not sure if she’s done this before, but Joyce is dropping the word ‘shit’ now huh? Oh my.
Also, if you’re American – you might want to call your senators about this healthcare nonsense. Like, right now.
Just saying…..I think it’s better if she stays like this and we never know. Whatever the reason is won’t be satisfying. Like do we really need to know exactly what happened to Ryan? Him getting his ass kicked is enough. Mary being nice for no reason is funny. Just my opinion anyway. It probably won’t last though.
Because I don’t trust Mary being nice not to be part of some trick.
See that would bum me out cause then all this is filed under typical Mary bullshit and the last few weeks of nice Mary are cheapened. Although that’s believable as a thing so I guess I can’t be mad if it happens.
“nice is different than good”
I think Mary is trying to pretend to be concerned, to be included in the conversation because she’s nosy as hell, but she only sees the world through Jesus glasses, so calling Ryan ( in essense) a bad Christian is all she’s got. That, and she’s trying to distance Ryan from Christianity, because even she can’t put a rosy Jesus-spin on what he did and he’s P.K., which in some way insulates him from No True Christian.
This seems like the most likely explanation.
Don’t see what’s so scandalous about “shit” specifically when it comes to Joyce. She’s been peppering in swears ever since Bk6Ch1.
Because most of her swearing has been hell or damn. She said shit in front of her mom though, so it doesn’t matter. Not scandalous, more like a character note.
Joyce’s motto is “you *will* be hugged” ‹3
Uh.
What?
Strong – but justified – words, Joyce.
I’m going nuts just wondering what gives about Mary.
… k, so i’ve been late a few nights, may have not bothered to look back, did something happen to mary?
Not so far as we’ve been made aware of, yet? It’s throwing us all for a bit of a loop.
Mary is scaring me.
Any moment now Mary is going to take off her face mask while everyone’s guard is down and turn out to actually be Ryan.
Then Ryan will take off his mask and it will turn out to just be one of the Globetrotters or something.
and then everyone in Birdman’s office laughs.
Ha-ha!
I think that Mary isn’t like going to turn out to be this great person, so much as she has SOME limits. This is like Joker telling off Red Skull, not a face turn entirely.
Crazy theory: Ryan is the son of HER pastor and this is causing her to re-evaluate a lot of his speeches.
Let’s all post our insane theories for why Mary’s behavior has changed. Mine is she’s actually the new Female Doctor’s companion who took her on a year and a half of space travel that reorientated her worldview. The Doctor took her back within 2 days and she’s now trying to make amends.
Okay, who’s familiar with the “Avril Lavigne is dead” conspiracy theory? Basically, it’s that Avril Lavigne had a look a like to help distract the paparazzi from herself. Then, around 2003/2004/dates may vary, the real Avril Lavigne died, and her look a like took over and has been her ever since.
So
What’s notable is Mary’s face is lacking its usual EVIL SNEER. It’s like the Joker frowning.
It’s unsettling.
Yeah, it feels oddly genuine in a way she hasn’t really been in a long time. Which is… something. Maybe good, maybe bad, but it’s definitely something.
“Paul is dead”, nothing is new.
Sounds like old fans trying to cope with their favorite artist/idol changing (as most people do over time).
For those of us who are MUCH older, think “Paul is dead” tinfoil hat theory. Or the “Elvis was kidnapped by aliens” theory to explain the Fat Elvis.
Insane theory: While she’s a jerk in many ways she genuinely is against rape, assault, and murder and is glad Ryan was stopped. Mary thinks Ryan is genuinely evil and only pretending to be a Christian and she thinks she herself is genuinely good and not merely justifying thing with her faith. Thus she thinks her comment is a perfectly normal thing to say and everyone else is thinking don’t you do the same thing (albeit not to the point of attempted murder she’s a jerk not a psychopath)
Yeah, she just tries to do her murders with words against suicidally depressed targets. She’d never murder with a knife.
Nor was this one of those (attempted) rapes that can easily be explained away as not rape because it’s all the girl’s fault somehow. Drugs and then attacks with a knife.
So it’s easy for her to cast herself on the good side here, as you suggest.
Words are not as clumsy or random as a knife. An elegant weapon for a more civilized age.
space worms.
(…spaaaaaace!)
Whaaaatttt is happening here
It’s a trap!
That’s a slur.
No. Just no. Whether that was a joke or not, no.
But…it is, though?
Synnerman is clearly using the dictionary definition, so no.
At the time I posted that, my mind was coming to some odd conclusions. See, Mary’s known for transphobia, and then a word that’s considered a transphobic slur pops up in the comments. At the time, it seemsd like Synnerman was referencing Mary’s transphobia.
I didn’t know of that other definition (and I guess I should call myself lucky because of that). I don’t know if I should thank you for educating me on that, or just feel horrible to now know about this…
I should add “definition” as it’s actually a misuse of the word as a word with ‘I can’t express what kinda horrible meaning, as I lack the words for that right now’-meaning
I’m not sure it would be appropriate to thank someone for teaching you a new slur.
…the hell?
Why is no one mentioning that Joyce swore? No one?
She’s been doing it regularly for a while?
They probably gave mention to it in the three day interim and became accustomed during that same timeframe.
I agree, it felt stronger than her “usual” swearing!
Partially because it’s a perfect example of that word having meaning, and partially because Ethan and Jacob weren’t there for the conversation I just linked? I don’t remember if Ethan and Jacob have seen Joyce’s pseudo-swearing from before; they could just see this as a perfectly appropriate use of the word.
She swore when talking about Toedad even though she was talking to her dad at the time. Swearing as she mentions Ryan only makes sense.
She mentioned the ‘s’ bomb twice when she went home, just a matter of time before she drops the ‘f’ bomb.
Interesting – I read Mary’s comment as a snide attack at Joyce, to make her feel guilty…
She seems to be sincere with her body language and facial expression. Why everyone is weirded out
That’s more or less how I’ve read that line too. Mary reuses the same words from Joyce’s sentence in the preceding panel. Funny thing is that it applies in so many ways to so many characters, starting with Mary herself. Like a black & white character commenting on how the world is actually shades of grey. Irony over nine thousand.
Ah look hypocrisy from Mary…big shocker.
Pot, kettle, black.
Are you comparing black people to cookware?
Why are you trolling?
I stopped trolling a long time ago.
um, actually, you’ve been getting a little trollish the last couple of days.
I’d hardly call my conduct “trollish”. The worse I’ve done is express disdain for spoiler aversion.
I think disdain is exactly the right word. I’m seeing a lot of disdain in a lot of your comments, enough that I don’t find them funny any more.
Has there been? I haven’t noticed, but it may be runoff from my increasing frustration with most things online.
makes sense
the world is a bit of a frustrating place, especially lately. I’ve been avoiding most news and such the last few years.
Are you fucking kidding me
Apologies. My mind was drawing some odd conclusions, at the time.
Honestly, I just figured it was a smarmy quip rather than any actual offense taken. Feigned indignance, not actual.
Joyce in last panel is staring up at God and wondering, “is lack of self-awareness a smite-worthy offense? Smite once for yes.”
Smite twice for no, just to be clear.
Wow, Mary, I guess you do have some self awareness– naw, who am I kidding, you’re still the same old sanctimonious hypocrite we’ve come to know and hate.
The irony of course, is that Ryan wasn’t using his faith to justify what he was doing. He was using his status as a P.K. as cover and bait, so your comment – intended to ingratiate yourself into the party?- was a non sequiter as to Ryan, and just shone a spotlight on your horrible self.
Way to make it about you, Mary.
He did, admittedly, use the Jules “misuse a Bible quote to sound cool” thing when stalking Dot and Amber.
He also did with Joyce. Something about reaping what you sow.
Found both
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/bat/
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/03-the-thing-i-was-before/reprioritize/
Oh, the irony
Do Ethan and Jacob have a context for Mary being awful?
Do any of the guy have any context for anything that happens in the ladies dorm?
Joyce probably mentioned her to Ethan at some point.
Hey Willis, nobody will blame you if you go back on your “no characters will die”policy for Mary.
You know what’s really incredible, Mary? How SOME PEOPLE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED have absolutely NO self-awareness whatsoever! Isn’t that WILD?????/s
Comic Reactions:
… I’m so so tired…
So many of my friends will die. I will probably die. And I’m just… tired. Like, fuck, this bill makes insurance for being employed no longer mandatory, so we’re all about to lose insurance when this shit hits the fan and they are already laying the groundwork to regard a whole swath of medical conditions as not worth covering.
I’m trying to hold onto a silver lining, onto hope, but it’s getting real fucking thin at the moment.
Panel 1: Okay, time to pull it together. I like the group gathering to show support and it’s interesting to see Jacob being a major part in it despite him not really knowing her. I guess him and Joyce have been getting a lot closer lately in a totally platonic and not involving Joyce falling for him way.
And Ethan’s last comment. You can tell he’s really worried about that and knows how bad a sign that is.
Panels 2-3: I love this moment a lot. Like, at the end of the day, no, you can’t force support on someone. If they don’t want to talk, especially if they’re dealing with triggering stuff, sometimes forcing them to or intruding in their safe spaces makes things a lot worse. Joyce’s approach is well-meaning but has a lot of potential to go wrong.
That said, I feel the sentiment so hard. The desire to let someone who is emotionally hurting because they fought for you or protected you that you deeply care and value what they did. And it might be what Amber does need. To hear that she’s not a monster, but a hero. That Amber is a hero for what she did to protect and save Joyce and all the comfort and ability to go outside that Amber has brought her.
I dunno, it’s a tough situation.
Panels 4-5: … you know, I actually feel a little bit for Mary here. Like, growing up with the type of shitheads who’d cheer the bill being passed tonight, I got to see a lot of bullshit hand-waving when men of the cloth or deep religious convictions do wrong.
Like, it becomes either the action wasn’t actually bad and that sexual assault or terrorist bombing of a building was actually a heroic action for Christ that should be praised. Or it’s that person wasn’t a real Christian and was actually a secret atheist or jewish person or Catholic or something that allows them to distance themselves. Or it’s a false flag to discredit the faith. An intentional ruse of Satan.
So for Mary to fucking own that shit when so many folks who’ve stumbled on these comic threads can’t manage to own Mary or Toedad or Carol? To say, yeah, he’s of my faith and that’s disturbing is big. And it’s even bigger that she’s acknowledging and publicly wrestling with the fact that folks can use her faith to justify evil.
Like, yeah, it’s hypocritical, because she’s not being aware of how much she’s used her faith to justify horrific actions, but this feels like a crucial intermediate step to eventually being less of a shithead than she is now and that means something in our current hellhole people like Mary have trapped us in.
And it’s also understandable that this would be the thing to penetrate on that point. She may be bigoted as a Christian, but she’s still a woman, specifically a young woman and it’s damn hard to avoid rape culture and sexual harassment when you are a woman in public. So this hits home. This was a man who targeted folks like her, religious women he thought he could exploit. That closeness allows a little more empathy and reasoning than we’d normally see.
But it’s also nice seeing the line she won’t cross. What she’ll refuse to justify in the name of her twisted idea of religion and “good personhood”. I can hope that this will be the beginning of tumbling out of her vileness, but I doubt it. But I can at least appreciate this one moment of clarity for what it is.
Even if it makes everyone present have to very quickly bite their tongue in response.
*offers hugs, sympathy, and as always, thanks for the thoughtful analysis*
Remember, Cerberus, the health stuff keeps failing! Keep hoping. *hug* The rest can fail too.
You have our support.
Chin up, Cerberus. We’ll make noise and give them hell.
Do not lose yourself to despair. We will have great need of resolve in the days ahead. There will be casualties, but we must endure, and be prepared to fight. For it is only once we accept defeat that we have been truly beaten. So carry on.
All the hugs. The only thing I can think of is call your senators, and have your friends do so too. That’s also for people outside the US – get American friends to do the thing.
And I hope you’re right and this piece of clarity for Mary sticks. Although, ick, that is an unpleasant thing that caused it.
Call my senators, eh? What do you suggest I call ’em?
Depending on how they voted, tell them to Bannon themselves.
Depends who your senator is.
Democrats or McCain, Murkowski, or Collins
Thank you for voting against it
Republicans who are not one of the above three
Tell them allllllllllll about your displeasure.
its-time-to-fight.weebly.com and 5calls both will help you figure out which senators are yours and their contact info. Happy calling.
Huh. McCain actually voted against a bill that would kill people. I did not expect that.
I’m starting to think that McCain coming back to give the deciding vote to debate healthcare was secretly a Machiavellian ploy on his part to make sure that there wouldn’t be a bill passed, all so he could spit in Trump’s eye before he dies. Which is still kinda a dick move to the American people, but not as much of a dick move as it first appeared.
*hugs*
The skinny repeal bill just failed. Honestly I think the 49-51 defeat had to have been preplanned, that bill was the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard of, you can’t have the Obamacare marketplaces without a mandate. It just doesn’t function on a base level, they were near bankrupt even with it.
THANK F*CK.
I was watching the livestream while on twitter. Someone tweeted something to the effect of: “We are all passionately tweeting about Senate votes. This is our lives now. Our social studies teachers would all be so proud.”
Of course Republicans are going to keep attacking the ACA. But each time they’re defeated, they wil have to back-pedal and come up with a less damaging replacement. The “skinny repeal,” while terrible, was objectively less terrible than their first attempt. I hope that Republicans keep being defeated to the point where they (a) just give up or (b) come up with something virtually indistinguisable from the ACA.
A reporter (I don’t remember who – I think maybe someone from CNN?) recently said that once you give people rights (like the right to healthcare) it is VERY hard to revoke those rights. We’re seeing that in action and it gives me hope in the midst of this Trumpian wasteland.
It’s never going to pass and it’s political theater at this point. The Republicans have the unfortunate situation (for them, not us) of the fact those who want the poor to die are opposed by those who have the fact Red States being the primacy beneficiaries of Obamacare.
Don’t get complacent.
Due to how reconciliation works, healthcare “reform” is dead until 2019 at the earliest unless McCain dies or becomes incapacitated within the next ~2 months before this year’s reconciliation window closes. They’re planning to use next year’s reconciliation bill on various tax cuts and Trump’s infrastructure agenda and can’t use it on health care.
Or unless they tweak it again to come up with something McCain will support. Or some other piece of political theater. It’s still possible to pass something on health care using this year’s reconciliation. They just need to cobble something together that can get to 50.
I don’t think it’s likely, but it’s not guaranteed.
It was intended to pass, it’s just not the political theater you’re thinking about.
They ram it through, the House passes it, Trump signs it, it’s the law of the land… with the harmful bits taking effect in 2018. Then, they work on a real healthcare law, one that wouldn’t turn the insurance industry into a smoking hole in the ground but isn’t nearly as good or provide as much coverage as the ACA.
That way, they could bully moderates into supporting an actual HC bill, because “If you don’t, this flaming turd will kill millions”.
…….of course, because the Republicans are fucking incompetent at actually running the government, the process would fail, the markets would crumble, and everyone would blame everyone else. But that part likely wasn’t part of the plan.
@Jaime: That last point is why they fought so hard against it in the first place. They couldn’t accept another government program that helps people and that people like. Even a crippled one like the ACA gets people used to the idea that government should be involved in health care. And it’s worked. Consider the difference between the debate now about Obamacare isn’t working and they’re going to “improve it, versus the debate back in 2009/10 about how government shouldn’t be involved at all.
Oh, they knew it was bad. The idea was that if they just passed *something*, they could work something better out in conference with the House.
Ludicrous, trying to use something designed to reconcile small differences in House and Senate legislation to write a whole new bill, but hey, that’s 2017 America for you.
They were seriously trying to get assurances from Paul Ryan and the House that they wouldn’t approve the Senate bill in order to convince Senators to vote for it. That’s how crazy it’s gotten. “You need to pass this, but we know it’s horrible and promise it’ll never actually become law.” WTF?
They’ve been crusading against the mandate since before Obamacare became law. Because everything must be run with Maximum Freedom!
Arguing with Tea Party types these days is like arguing with Communists in college – the Theory is everything and must never be tainted with reality.
*Hugs. All the hugs. I’m so sorry about all that’s going on right now.*
Agreed about Mary. She owns something big and scary that many of her fellow Christians don’t. And you are right that as a woman growing up in that culture it is not unlikely that she herself has been on the receiving end of harassment that was swept under the rug. Ryans preferred target wasn’t lost on her. I don’t think Joe’s list did her sense of security any favors either.
It fits neatly with her role as Joyce without her positive traits. Joyce is trusting to a fault. Mary isn’t.
On the bright side, they failed again. They may try again, but there doesn’t seem to be a path forward for repeal now.
And the military brass seem to be pushing back hard on Trump’s tweet about trans people in the military.
So there are glimmers of hope.
As for Amber and everyone’s desire to support her. I absolutely get the problems with forcing support on people, but on the other hand, she’s thinks everyone will think she’s crazy and be afraid of her and she really needs to know that’s not true.
Maybe a note or online contact? Respect her privacy, but let her know.
Rousing chorus of “For she’s a jolly good fellow” (or “For she’s a jolly good hero”?) just outside her door? Thank you cards/notes slipped under it? Pass the hat and buy a gift card for pizza and a thank you card and get everyone to sign it?
*hugs*
If it’s any consolation, the bill didn’t pass and the Pentagon has said, and I’ll paraphrase and translate from politic speak, “Fuck that shit. We aren’t changing our policy because of a goddamn fucking tweet. Give us an executive order in written format motherfucker. And even then, we’re gonna protect our current trans soldiers until a federal court strikes your dumbass order down and we can just ignore this idiocy ever happened!”
*hugs* and I’m sorry.
…. so, DID Mary get character development in the past three days? Sounds like it.
…. and that begs the question: is she the one that is going to reach Amber?
You know, I’d love for Mary to get a little character growth here. Even if all that happens is she just embraces her inner and outer bongo and drops the idea that she’s the moral right, and just hates everyone because she’s kind of a crappy person who just hates people then I’d like her character a bit more
…
And then mike would find her….and train her
Here you go, Mary.
…ok, moving on.
So Mary DOES have standards. Albeit rather LOW standards.
Is that Joyce’s first time saying “shit” or am I not remembering correctly?
Nope. She said “shit” at her mom. Twice.
Okay just my terrible memory then.
But those were interjections, and unplanned.
This instance required some forethought.
Go big or go home. Joyce is rather impressive.
Nah, she said ‘shit’ when she and Becky were visiting Joyce’s home after the fiasco with Mr. Macintire’s school shooting. She was whispering something to Becky through a door about her mother getting crazy and then Becky responded that Joyce’s mother was in the room with Becky and heard everything she just said, to which Joyce said ‘Shit” without time to think
Does she not see where she has done exactly the same thing in the past? Hypocrazy? (deliberate misspelling)
The word we’re looking for here is “hypocrisy” although Hypocrazy fits Mary too.
Joyce is about to use her special attack, boundary crossing
PAST TENSE ALERT
PAST TENSE ALERT
SCARDOUCHE MIGHT BE DEAD
I’m pretty sure Willis has said that he’s not.
Yeah but still.
Let a guy hope.
Well Mary you’re not wrong here. Just a hypocrite that’s all.
Half the comments I’m reading are like, “Is Mary becoming a good person?” “Is she having character developement?” “Weird that she says something you can actually agree with” I thought is was just to highlight her raging hypocrisy and lack of self awareness, not signalling a change in character.
You know, I could’ve sworn there was some story book or other that had a story about this guy Joshua who said something about how it’s easier to notice a splint in another person’s eye than a beam in your own… I wonder if Mary’s ever read that book.
If she did she definitely used it to point out how other people have HUGE beams in their eyes.
Wait, that line’s from the Book of Joshua? Was Jesus quoting that older text-?
…
You’re just being coy, aren’t you.
More like alluding to how the person known in the West as Jesus would have been named Joshua in his society.
1st Century Judea was, by necessity, bilingual (Hebrew and Koine or ‘Common’ Greek, the lingua franca of the Eastern Mediterranean). Jesus would probably have been commonly known by both names as well as the title ‘Rabbi‘ (‘teacher’) with varying degrees of sincerity.
Joyce is a blunt instrument. This situation calls for something more delicate.
And Joyce eye roll for the win.
I don’t know, to me it looks like people around Joyce are all looking at her because they know that she used to be the kind of person who used religion to get away with some pretty bad things… And Joyce is aware of who she used to be too, and so I guess she tries to look at herself.
But looking at yourself isn’t really possible, and I guess that in the end, it may look like you’re rolling your eyes; especially in a still comic panel.
Hmm, as far as we know, he didn’t try to justify anything, much less with his faith, Mary. Projecting much?
I love Jacob’s shirt <3
You mean his Captain Marvel shirt!
Jacob is the Captain Marvel we all deserve.
>:(
Wait is it captain marvel and not power rangers? I remember loving that he brought power rangers into short packed because I couldn’t relate with most of the transformers stuff at all
Maybe we’ll see Mary start changing for the better? Mayyyyyyyybe???
She can hardly change for the worse.
She could draw Rule 63 fanart of Dream Daddy.
Or, for a legitimate turn, she could send Naomi Scott death threats for being in a Disney movie.
That’d mean she’s getting more LGBT friendly
Maybe not? TBH I didn’t really think how gender swaps might bother people
I choose to believe Mary has had no character development at all, and is just evincing a complete lack of self-awareness.
But now that I think about it has DoAverse Mary actually ever used her religion to justify being an asshole? She didn’t want to hang out with Dorothy and Sierra in Choosing My Religion after learning they were non-Christian, but that’s not evil. She used transphobic language against Carla, and blackmailed Billie and Ruth, which is evil, but she never connected it to her religion (she did tell Billie lesbianism was a sin, but that was more of an “I know” threat; Mary’s motivations for blackmailing Ruth were pretty clearly about giving Mary power)…
Huh….
Going through the archive, the more DoAVerse Mary’s thinking about Jesus, the *less* evil she’s tended to be, as she was content to go off to sulk in sadness when Robin was outed and when her burgeoning church group with Dorothy and Sierra fell apart. It’s when she’s thinking in secular terms about her own group status that she goes full Hitler.
Jacob’s eyes just peering over the top of Joyce’s head in the last two panels just make this for me.
….. and it gets more incredible the longer you talk, Mary.
(Though to be reluctantly fair, she’s not trying to justify anything at the moment.)
Now we just need a Joseph, because we already have a JESUS, MARY
How have I never seen this in the comments before?
This wins everything.
Nothing notable, here.
No, that’s not sarcasm.
This… this might be the friendliest interaction with her peers we have seen Mary have throughout the entire comic.
…it’s still the puppy thing, isn’t it?
I’m starting to think not. I’m sure that was hardly the first puppy she ate since the series began, and I have a hard time believing that this one just HAPPENED to sate her lust for evil this long when none of the others came close.
She discovered Nanako Dojima, an innocence more powerful than all of Earth’s baby mammals combined.
It’s about on par with Mary recommending a church to Joyce and co. back in Book 2.
*reads back*
Huh, that’s true. And when I think of it, it’s a pretty similar discussion. It’s about faith and other people and how you find your place in it.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2012/comic/book-2/02-choosing-my-religion/guitars/
I have to admit I’m wrong. I expected Mary to always support evil when it evoked religion. Her moral scale, while still out of wack, is more nuanced than I thought.
No, no one could ever support-
…
There’s always someone out there.
Is Mary, um, having some character growth?
If she is, I’ll go to church the week it’s confirmed.
Wait, what?
Wait! Perhaps Mary’s brain will grow 3 sizes that day… She’s so close.
Maybe Mary is displaying self-awareness. Over the three days, something happened to make her a better person and realize the error of her ways and now she’s changed a bit, but is trying to pretend the old her never happened.
So, when this comes up, she brings up something she did as a “some people” thing.
Hmm, Toe-Dad abducted Becky due to religion, and Ryan’s a preacher’s son… maybe she’s getting an inkling of why some of us find religion repugnant.
nobody invited you mary
Mary is bipolar. She may also be manicdepressive. If this turns out to be true, i hope all of you admit your lack of sympathy for a mentality I’ll person.
Whatever the reason for Mary’s about face, she should be praised for it and encouraged to maintain it.
I’m the future, when wefind out what’s going on with her, i hope to post “called it!”
Uh, isn’t manic depressive the same thing as bipolar?
Yeah, older term for it.
I’m comfortable having no sympathy for a transphobic piece of shit. Having a mental disorder doesn’t mean she gets to be a transphobic piece of shit for free.
Mary’s not hated for lashing out at people because she can’t control her emotions, she’s hated for overt transphobia and blackmail, attempts at controlling and gaining power over people that go far beyond inability to control her emotions in the moment. Hell, she’s been pretty good at controlling her emotions in the moment.
She’s not trying to do it to get people to -like- her, either. She’s doing it to get other people to do what she wants, pure and simple.
Sure, it can be a side effect of a disorder still. Control issues and all that.
But not a mood disorder, no, I don’t think so.
Isn’t it weird how other, actual and not-guessed-at bipolar people DON’T HURL TRANSPHOBIA AT TRANS PEOPLE OR TAKE SATISFACTION IN THE SUICIDAL THOUGHTS OF OTHERS
Um no. I am bipolar and there is no way Mary is a good portrayal of bipolar behavior. In my experiences with bipolar mood swings they don’t change your personality and views they just give you temporary phases of euphoric elation and hamper your ability to think beyond the moment, as well as phases of depression that make you feel numb and bored with everything . they dont make you switch from cruel and scheming to self aware and rational on a dime. I mean obviously my description is colored by my own experience but i know what bipolar disorder doesn’t do. And it doesnt completly change your personality.
Even if she were she still deserves heavy critcism for her behavior. She hurt people and caused pain.
It seems like you’re looking for some kind of “gotcha” to shame people for being critical of Mary’s abusive behavior. Don’t throw mentally ill people under the bus for that.
This isn’t an “about face”. If Mary suddenly had realized how terrible her past actions were, she would be sobbing uncontrollably and too ashamed to show her face around the other people on her floor.
All she’s doing is putting on the appearance of being friendly. She’s yet to do a single thing to apologize to anyone she’s hurt, or show the slightest twinge of remorse.
Even if she HAS changed, or even if she WERE mentally ill (she’s definitely not, btw), that would excuse exactly none of her behavior.
But she’s not. We’ve ALREADY seen her feign politeness to Ruth, then IMMEDIATELY make it clear to Billie that she was going to get revenge against her. She’s simply being manipulative, we just don’t know what her angle is yet.
What I don’t get is why anyone thinks shes chsnged or is pretending to change. Despising a rapist attempted murderer seems completely consistent with her character and beliefs. I mean did people think she would consider going to the wrong church a serious moral failing but trying to stan someone outside her dorm was ok? Especially when its caught on video tape?
All valid points and yes, she doesn’t get a pass if she’s mentally ill.
I wasn’t looking to excuse but to explain.
She clearly had *some* kind of disorder beyond simply being an asshole.
Time will tell.
No, she does not clearly have any disorder. Being a manipulative, heartless bigot is not a mental illness. It’s a problem with society, not the brain.
fMRIs show a very real structural difference in the brain of a sociopath.
…which would actually be relevant if Mary were a sociopath, or if all sociopaths acted like the amoral assholes the way Hollywood portrays them
*mentally ill
I hate autocorrect.
Yeah Damar, what kind of people give those orders?
Sounds suspiciously like a DS9 reference.
It is.
Damar, a Cardassian who is now part of the resistance against their Dominion “allies”, has just learned that his family has been killed as reprisal/punishment, and in his grief, asks how anyone could order the death of innocents.
Kira, a Bajoran who used to be part of the resistance against the Cardassian occupation, who did that kind of thing a lot, throws it in his face.
It’s worth noting that Kira has developed, since those days, enough to feel some remorse and sympathy afterward. But pragmatic Garak suggests that it is, in fact, exactly what Damar needs to hear at this stage in his own.
I rewatched the series back to back about a year ago or so, but I didn’t remember this particular quote.
Joyce said shithead and barely paused! I’m so proud of her.
Yeah, I thought it would be Joyce who would charge in where others fear to tread when it comes to Amber! She may not be completely right in her suggestion as to what to do but I do agree that Amber shouldn’t be left alone right now.
Okay… So, either we can add ‘complete lack of self-awareness’ to Mary’s list of character flaws or… or… Okay, seriously, who are you and what did you do with the real Mary Bradford? I’m not interested in exposing you or making a criminal complaint, you understand. I just want to make sure that your story is rock-solid as we don’t want any complications at this stage when things are going so well!
I actually really hope that Joyce does talk to Amber. Amber sees herself as a “monster” right now; she needs to hear from someone who feels safer now that Ryan is “off the streets.” As I’ve said here before, I’m a firm believer in non-violence. However, Ryan was a violent menace to a LOT of people and Amber was defending herself and Dorothy. (We don’t know exactly what Amber did to Ryan yet, so I’m TOTALLY not commenting on whether or not the degree of violence she used was justified.) In the process, Amber also brought Joyce some much-needed closure. IMHO, Amber needs to be reminded of that.
I’ve shared before that I’ve experienced sexual assault and harrassment. However, I’ve never experienced what Joyce did – knowing that the person who assaulted you might be out there somewhere in your immediate vicinity and might *return* to assault you again. I can only imagine how terrifying that must be. To Joyce, Amber is a hero and Amber needs to be reminded of that. She can be a hero without having to be Amazi-Girl.
All that being said, I dearly hope that we see Amber getting some therapy (and perhaps medication) soon. She doesn’t seem to be in a good place right now. If she was a real person, I’d honestly be worried she might be thinking of hurting herself and I really hope that’s not where this story arc is going.
I don’t disagree that Ryan (probably) got what was coming to him, and that everyone is safe with him off the streets. But I submit that Amber’s problem isn’t so much with her violent actions.
It’s with the fact that she enjoyed them.
Amber’s problems are the fact whatever she does is something she’ll use to attack herself. If Joyce said stabbing people was a good thing when they’re bad, Amber would just hear, “You enjoy stabbing people.”
Mary is a little too on the nose for my taste. I think Willis has a time machine, which is how she is making that statement on a week where transgender issues are in the forefront. Care to give me next Saturday’s Powerball numbers?
*cricket noise*
Well, at least she’s not defending Ryan because he’s the son of a pastor and taking his side. So there’s a small ray of discernment there. So, that’s good.
Also, good swearing, Joyce. Good job.
I am all for Joyce being there for Amber when Amazi-girl was there for Joyce
Huh, I just noticed that Mary’s last two outfits haven’t covered her wrists.
And now I wonder if she could have been another of Ryan’s victims, who wasn’t save from him. She would have been just as vulnerable as Joyce to his ‘nice preacher boy’ story, and the original version of her was at her very worst when she was trying to keep anyone from believing she was no longer “pure”, if it wasn’t even her own choice maybe she reacted by pushing even more to make sure no one could possible doubt that she was a strong faithful Christian who would never get pulled into any type of sinful ways. It would explain why she’s so happy now. (Not saying it would make her Maryness alright, mind you, she’s still a terrible person)
That actually makes a lot of sense.
This is immediately what came to my mind and I’m surprised so few people have suggested it. The idea, if it is indeed what happened in the story, also makes me sick to my stomach.
I think it’s because it was buried so far back in the story. It was pretty much said from the time Mary was introduced that she had a traumatic experience with someone who pretended to be basically a saint.
Echoing Cass (and many others) that it still doesn’t justify being a “b-word” to people.
Hmmm. There could be.something to your idea.
This is what am thinking, too. I am going through the comments backwards today. So, I actually commented much the same thing further down. I think that happening to her could have completely twisted her up and Amber vanquishing him could have set her free. What we might be seeing now is the “factory default settings” for Mary. It doesn’t excuse any of her behavior, but wow.
Mary’s mood has nothing to do with Ryan, as Mandy pointed out the joy act was a new development as of Saturday–Ryan was caught Wednesday.
Am I the only one who reads Mary’s recent strange behaviour as being that she had some sort of personal stake in Ryan seeing justice? As in, she definitely knew him.
Either in the worst sort of way, or she knew him personally (same church?) and knew what he did but was somehow unable to do anything about it. (-> Son of her pastor??)
Maybe Mary has gone through something similar with Ryan or some Ryan type douche? It would kind of explain why she was super cheery earlier even though others assumed it was cause of her score on Joes list.
Though, actually if it was some other guy that would essentially bring up bad memories so maybe not.
Either way, I would really like to see Mary go through a redemption arc. This line here shows at least the possibility could exist….
Remember, it’s been three days. Mary’s only acting happy now, as her dormmates note, as of Saturday, so her mood hasn’t been from him getting caught.
Did she start acting happy on Saturday, or did the rest of the floor only notice that she was acting happy on Saturday?
You’d know all about that, wouldn’t you “Pot.”
Mary looks adorable. It’s a sign of her evil power growing.
Self-awareness is awful hard, innit.
Okay, is there something in the water? Mary is freaking me out! I could understand her being happy since its a natural emotion but a bad sign coming from her, because that’s to be expected of her. But now she’s rebuking Ryan for his connection to a pastor?! Did she meet the Dumbingverse version of Eric?! What is going on?!
I absolutely would not be surprised if finding a boyfriend (or at least a boy) is giving her this temporary elation and enlightened attitude of being nice to everybody.
The expressions in the last panel, I assume, are at the confluence of total shock and recognition of the blatant hypocrisy. There is a war waging in Joyce’s head, in particular, I think, between telling Mary to bugger off and agreeing with her surprising sentiment.
Ok, this is the second time she’s acted too nice, and she’s not smart enough to be playing a long con, so…?
Mirror universe twin or alien pod-person.
I was seriously expecting a lightning to hit her in that last panel for the uber hypocrisy… but I guess God is not that accommodating…
It suddenly occurs to me that Ryan never used his being a pastor’s son as a justification for anything. He used it at camouflage, to give himself a facade of righteousness and respectability but (apart from some weird behavioural quirks), he never claimed any religious justification for his actions.
I dunno, he was quoting the Bible just before trying to shank Amber and Dotty…
In a random, raving way that suggests that his brain was in ‘free association’ mode.
Guess he was too far gone to use his religion as an excuse.
And yet, if he were brown and Muslim, his whole community would be up in arms about how it was his religion that made him behave that way. Huh.
But assuming he is Christian (which isn’t that much of a stretch), he’d still need to level his actions with his beliefs. Justifying them by reading selectively is an easy way to do so.
Not at all. The vast majority of those who label themselves as ‘Christian’ see no need to let that impact on their lifestyle beyond setting aside a few hours for church every week.
oooooooh snap
OK look this was a great comic today but, I’d recognize a Power Rangers lightning bolt anywhere and I’m 99% sure that’s what’s on Jacob’s chest.
Maybe I missed something, but I don’t recall Rapey McRapenstein using religion to back up his raping lifestyle.
Mary isn’t exactly the narrator.
No, but he used being a Pastor’s son to get close to girls who were religious, and drug them, and rape them and I don’t even wish that on Mary and could see something like that twisting her up into a real fucking psycho.
In addition to this, it is also quite possible that he used his status to get away with what he did. After all, a pastor’s son can do no wrong, so anyone accusing him of someone must be lying, right?
Or his victims never bothered at all because they knew it was going to be an uphill battle in so many ways already; and him being a pastor’s son would make it downright impossible.
Mary is just terrifying atm..
POD PERSON!
What is it?
Anything of note for Joyce and Jacob being there together?
Were they having Bible study? (I literally mean this. Jacob’s the one person shown with an interest in iI to rival Joyce’s.)
It’s possible; I wouldn’t expect Jacob to be there normally unless Ethan asked him for his help with Amber.
Aw, that’d be kinda sweet actually.
Did Joyce just properly swear?!
Oh wait, it looks like she already swore. My bad.
I was wondering if anyone else noticed that…
Since the time skip, Mary has been “happy.”
Could something that happened immediately before that time skip be the reason? Could the cause of Amber’s depressive state be the direct cause of Mary’s happiness?
Maybe, just maybe, could Willis be about to reveal a huge “FU” to all who ‘judged’ Mary for being a horrible person… without knowing what (who) “made” her into a horrible person…?
WHY she’s a horrible person is irrelevant. There’s no excusing the things she’s done.
Eeehh. Sure, we might learn some awful shit from Mary’s backstory that will earn her sympathy despite her horrible actions, but like, her actions are still horrible and judge-worthy.
Commenters were, from day one, theorizing that Mary must have had horrible parents who brainwashed her into being a horrible person, and Willis’s response to that theory was that no, her parents were good people, and she just “learned all the wrong lessons” from church by herself.
Considering that, I really, really doubt that anything he ever reveals about Mary’s past will be “a huge ‘fu’ to all who ‘judged’ her”.
Not all horrible people are “made” horrible by people in their past. And we don’t base people on the basis of their pasts. we judge them on their actions.
What are you up to Mary, you filthy spawn of a mudfish.
Dear Kettle:
You’re black.
Love, Pot.
Yes, Mary, he was the son of a pastor. And he bragged about having access to this dorm. I wonder who he could have known on the inside that would have let him in? And I wonder what lengths they might go to in order to keep other people from figuring that out?
He “found” someone’s key fob? He knows a guy who knows a girl in there? He’s skulked around long enough to figure out who’s dumb enough to fall for the “I want to surprise my girlfriend” or “I lost my key” bs? There are a lot of ways to get into a dorm you don’t belong in, trust me.
Or he lives on another floor, or one of the other interns does, or maybe every student has access to every dorm.
I have no word.
Either she had an offscreen, if you’ll pardon the expression, come to Jesus moment…. or she’s a pod person.
I’m still going with the theory that Mary was a previous victim of Ryan’s, and she’s acting all nice now because she knows he got his comeuppance. And unlike Joyce, she had no friends to come and save her.
Wasn’t his being a Pastor’s son part of his con? Mary mentioning that is good evidence he may have targeted her. Plus she fits his victim profile.
Er, no, that part was true. It was something he used to get Joyce under his sway but from the way he was dropping bible verses throughout his appearances I also suspect it was a large part of his own self-identity.
I just keep going back to what Mary had said way back near the beginning of the strip. “If evil weren’t nice, nobody’d bother with it.” Look at her expression when she says that.
She’s not completely incapable of self-awareness; which, if that IS an expression meant to convey something negative, could range from a dark memory like others have implied to something more like the fact that she kinda totally masturbates to anime Reagan (or at least with anime Reagan somewhere nearby as her drawing of the guy apparently featured in her solo slipshine re:willis).
But my takeaway was her face is important but not because of her expression. (Which honestly, on its own that is an facial expression she has worn frequently when expressing judgement, not pain. Even the slightly upturned eyebrows are a feature she wears a lot, in addition to scowling and brow-raising disbelief, when she’s arguing from the “high and mighty” position because Mary feels violated and done injustice often by others not automatically deferring her superiority).
I think that panel’s important because she’s saying those words about legitimately nice people saying perfectly reasonable and good things that she does not believe in and so she wants Joyce to, as of course she should, immediately abandon them as a morally superior person does. Then Joyce makes her decision and Mary leaves with judgement passed and her face is fully cast in shadow for the first time. Shadowed faces can mean a lot of things in DoA for dramatic effect, but it happening on that moment was essentially a villain reveal.
Did something happen to Mary? (Yes, I know I am dittoing Kyle Voltti and other reader/commenters too numerous to mention.)
My theory is that the only personal revelation that Mary has had is that she needs to make an effort to convince people in general that she’s actually a good person if she expects to get away with being truly nasty to specific people like Billie and Ruth.
I don’t trust her for a moment.
I think there is a good chance of that, though I also suspect it could be just that something (boyfriend? hookup?) in her personal life is making her happy enough to actually feel like being sanctimonious and loving the sinners around her despite inwardly remaining 100% convinced they’re all going to hell.
Exactly.
People who are manipulative and self-centered can often learn how to be friendly. In the book “How To Win Friends and Influence People” is a classic, and while it was written with good intentions (to help shy, socially anxious people overcome social phobias) it has also become sort of a “Manipulation 101” manual.
All the advice in it are things like, “People like compliments; try to give someone a genuine compliment at least once in a conversation. Listen to them to hear what they value in themselves.” Or, “People like questions that show interest in their personal life but aren’t *too* personal. Try asking how their pets are doing, or their opinion on a recent sporting event or popular film.” And, “Remember people’s answers so that you have a place to continue the conversation later. If someone expresses a worry about something upcoming to you, ask after it the next time you see them. For instance, ‘Hey, how did that test go?'”
Which seems like normal, semi-obvious conversational advice. Which means the two kinds of people who really like the book are people who are socially phobic and tend to freeze up in social situations, and people with a serious lack of empathy and a desire to manipulate.
By the end of the book, which also talks about body language and non-verbal cues and so on, pretty much anyone can become someone most other people feel good around.
I suspect Mary has begun to learn a bit of this. Learning pro-social conversational patterns does not, in any way, equate to being less mean or manipulative.
Wait, what? What just happened here?
Weeks of Joe being a little shit with no change occurs but then Mary just all of a sudden drops her behavior and changes personalities?
The fuck?
I figure it’s just good old-fashioned obliviousness. Mary is a cruel person in the service of her beliefs, but I doubt she thinks of herself as “using her faith to justify” anything.
Nah, it’s the beginning of a long con of some kind. Bet on it.
… Okay, who the Hell is this Pod Person and what have they done with the real Mary?
Everyone else’s thought bubble: “NOBODY TELL HER!”
A little introspection is all I’m asking for, Mary.
The hypocrisy feels very appropriate for today. Not like, “OMG, he planned this” levels of on the nose, more like matching a theme.
I’m guessing from Mary’s perspective, she doesn’t need to use her faith to justify her bigotry because from her perspective, it’s not bigotry. Her actions are already justified because she’s just calling out people who indulge in unchristian behaviour. Rape and attempted murder however is something even she recognizes as unchristian behaviour and as such she sees the bongo formerly known as Ryan as someone who (not at all like her) abuses their faith to justify unchristian behaviour.
I’m not trying to defend Mary’s hypocrisy. I’m just trying (against my better judgement) to think of a way she could actually be serious when she says something like that. Because don’t I buy for a second that she is serious. I think Fart Captor a few posts up explained perfectly what she’s really doing.
A part of me wonders over time whether the point of Mary will, as more and more readers call for her getting a “redemption” arc as they have from Day 1 through Day Worst, be showing us that, yes, a bad person taking positive steps or showing sympathetic qualities is not necessarily and of course will not always be the same thing as a good person making mistakes in the process of growth.
That partly what Rachel said is true. Because some people make mistakes, but some people in taking the same actions are only giving you glimpses of hope, small pieces of enlightenment gained but then lost perhaps even unwittingly to manipulate you and / or themselves into wanting to believe they will end up in a better place to judge their own behaviors. And that you should preemptively give them the benefit of the doubt. And that you do not reserve the right to wait for time to tell.
And if that turns out to be the case, maybe starting here with so many bursts of uncharacteristic behavior…perhaps this Mary in addition to displaying so far characteristics of a mean and hungry sociopath also has in her the Mary from Roomies! The Mary that owned up to her wrongdoings, once—who flatly admitted (to BILLIE, of all people) to getting an abortion after her first pregnancy despite Mary’s ‘previous’ self being the type to preach and find it reprehensible it reprehensible and then learning to empathize—and then over time simply lost this ground of understanding only to repeat all her same reprehensible actions over again, so that the glimpses of better developments sadly faded back from whence they came and became the “mistakes” themselves when her hypocrisy doubled down. Which is why I always questioned but now honestly believe Roomies!Mary is perhaps the worse of the two universes’, to date, for remaining a villain thereafter. Because until now as much as I think of DoA Mary as the worst, she has never yet tugged my heartstrings or given me the impression she could do better against my better judgement the way her former incarnation did. And I think the falsely earned (or rather, looked-for) sympathy story; i.e., the true-to-life version of the “redemption is a story” story, to a character where it actually applies? Is one that Willis may have a lot to write about if he ever so chooses, with so many people pulling excuses out of their ass for not just Mary but for every Blaine and Toedad and Ryan that so much as threatens a person with bodily harm in this strip despite them not doing a damn thing to atone for it.
Because even if they showed remorse, even if Mary can feel remorse (and this is the first time I have even found myself questioning whether she had a conscience, because DoA Mary never gave a glimpse of one until this storyline), and even if we find that out, it isn’t the guilt that makes something that happened or will happen a mistake on a person’s part. It’s the understanding and especially the real acknowledgement, the living and breathing and continued admittance, that the thing done was done was wrong. That is what separates a person making mistakes and learning from them (which, everyone on the cast page is and what the webcomic is about) different from a person that has done wrong things and yet is not on or headed toward redemption but on the road of good intentions that maybe were never so good to begin, or so intended.
And unlike the rest of the cast Mary is someone both established and awful that could feasibly in-story gain a certain level of new understanding, or even just pretend to, and then let it go again. And then not look back. And be a villain. Because a person with reasonably human, sympathetic qualities or their own stories or mysteries is not always or willing or ready or, in a worst-case scenario, able to be redeemed. A person that says and does and learns and experiences better things than what they knew previously is not always or even often as devoted or willing as Joyce has been to taking them to heart if hypothetically presented with the same opportunities.
That for people whose main prerogative in life is not to gain knowledge, but to be assured they have it so they can use it to victimize or even just think themselves as being better than others…redemption IS a story.
It could be, of course, but if I had to guess carefully at this time, I would say, no, redemption is not real. Not for Mary. It’s a story that among the comments you might say people like to read, but despite part of me wanting to see her as not evil I don’t think these flashes of insight and niceness are ever or somehow potentially going to make Mary not the thing she was before. Because what that Mary wants more than anything is not justice or righteousness (far from it!) but to be better than other people. And despite how good “learning” and “progress” might feel for her at this stage if she is indeed making some kind of visible effort to “be better” in front of others and riding the high of some new enlightenment or other…these two goals are ultimately not compatible. She has to “learn” that she is equal to others and vice versa. She has to “learn” to be sorry instead of grasping at hypocrisy to refuse admitting wrongdoing.
I mean, who knows, maybe she’ll take Rachel’s wrongly directed words to heart in the long run and become another protagonist. Anything’s possible. But I’d bet a lot more on Robin getting a redemption than ever Mary.
….She said while plotting…….
There was an episode of the British TV sitcom Drop the Dead Donkey where a previously-vinegary TV news anchorwoman suddenly became all hearts and flowers overnight and it later emerged that she was pregnant. It became a very bittersweet story because she suffered a miscarriage and some of the characters (to whom she had previously been highly antagonistic) had to help her through it.
I’m wondering if Willis is planning something like this? Mary has had something tremendously good happen to her and is on a high because of that. Then, maybe, it will be taken away from her and, ironically, it will be Carla, Billie and Ruth who are there for her at the darkest moment in her life.
That sounds too close to Mary’s arc in Roomies! for a repeat performance, I think.
Pot, meet kettle.
Kettle, Pot….
I saw the title and was hoping for a nice typesetting joke. This will do, I guess.
Mary’s still being kinda nice. I’m a little scared. Unless the theory that Mary was one of scardouche’s victims is accurate. Then I feel sorry for her.
HA HA HA HA HA HA
Am I the only one who feels the need to MENTION that Joyce said, “Shithead”?? Wasn’t she, at last check, only using swears that included damn and g-damn?
She said “shit” to her mom before. Twice.
You’re not the only one, and asking if you are makes it look like you didn’t even read any of the other comments.
“Tonight, on Animal Attacks: An Indiana student is mobbed to death by huge flocks of magpies and jackdaws, attracted by the impossibly shiny mirror she was holding!”
I know what they are trying to do, and while she did put a criminal out of the streets she took it to far, she needs psyquiatric help , it would have been better for her to take a sabatical leave to get better
Because we know about her psychological issues and no one official in world does?
She certainly does need help, but there’s no real way to force her into it at this point.
She needs psychiatric help, yes, but not because of what she did to Ryan. She didn’t take it too far. This narrative that you have to hold back when defending yourself from an armed, unprovoked attacker needs to die a swift and painful death.
Depends – from her persona and history, it’s pretty apparent she lost control. In a dangerous way. Much like she did when she was fighting Blaine.
We don’t know how much damage she actually did and that’s not really the issue. She’s got an uncontrolled berserker rage thing going and that’s not good.
Was Mary one of boyo’s victims? Now that could be an interesting development.
Looks like Joyce and Jacob came up together. Were they hanging out prior? Oh gosh I hope so.
“Hanging out”, is that what the kids are calling it?
I don’t think Joyce has gone quite /that/ far, lol. :p
She was probably hanging out with Ethan. Isn’t Jacob his roommate?
Yes but I don’t think Ethan is the type to just run off when he gets a text without saying “Hey Amber texted me I’m going to go check on her” or something.
I dunno, that’s probably the case, but I’m hoping they were hanging out and having religious debates again > w<
Angel Mode Mary ™ is kinda freaking me out.
Mary, c´mere. Hear me out, there. Are you a SANE person?
hmm. amber turning down the transformer eventually reminded me that I still feel like I owe a friend for not risking my life to save his pager in high school. and a bunch of other silly things. yay self-awareness!
it’s like… I’m more aware of the purpose behind social things that I can’t manage to do, so my brain was trying to be all “o noes you’re not perfect, that means you’re horrible and nobody should put up with you” which is obvious bullshit when put into words, but much sneakier when it’s lurking in shadowy corners of my brain… not only that, but, that kind of thinking actively hinders me from solving the problems it identifies. exactly the kind of bullshit anxiety tries to trap me in so I’ll never try to do things.
and I think the answer to that is… sorta… no we don’t want to ignore those problems (if they actually *are* problems), but neither do we want the bullshit “solutions” anxiety provides. we want a middle path. using compassion and boundaries to change the things that need changing, instead of attempting fight/flight/freeze against ourself. and holy crap does that take a lot of compassion. so it’s something to do in small doses at first, like weightlifting – you need to give the body the time and resources to heal and grow stronger, to grow that well of compassion the way muscles are grown. and some days you’re not well enough to manage it, and that’s ok. rome wasn’t built in a day and all that.
take a moment to think of just
flexibility, love and trust…
Aww, I totally missed the chance for a “strong in the real way” joke.
Geez, Mary, are you saying ALL Christians are rapists?! Nice straw-man! This Mary person is obviously a knee-jerk atheist who knows nothing about Christian culture!
Sort of a weird tangent, but I’m wondering if there exists a religion or philosophy out that *does* justify rape according to its own parameters.
Like, okay, if you were to make a list of all rapists in the world, I’m certain you’d find at least one adherent to each religion or secular philosophy represented. Some would be over-represented, probably (maybe nihilists? idk). But, at the same time, raping a stranger at a party would be considered immoral, I suspect, by the standards of morality in pretty much every ethical framework in existence.
Which leads to sort of a conundrum, or maybe just a hard limit of ethics in general (religious or otherwise): is it just impossible to make people internalize an ethic if they’re not already inclined to follow it? If 99% of ethical frameworks agree raping a stranger is wrong, yet there are still many people who clearly feel like that doesn’t apply to them, is there any way to fix the problem?
I mean, ideally, prevent the problem before it happens, not simply punish the person afterwards.
Looks like self-awareness is still a sin, eh, Mary?
On another site – No Longer Quivering – we’ve got some quotes from people in a similar fundamentalist Christian culture; long story short, every one of the featured authors is severely lacking in self-awareness.
Are they?
I’ve seen the main woman who began NLQ interviewed on other sites (secular feminist magazines and so on). It seemed like she was doing important work, but I did get a bit teary just reading the interview so I didn’t click through to the rest of the site.
Are the featured authors lacking self-awareness because they’re speaking out against spiritual abuse but still condoning other kinds of abuse? Or what’s the main issue you’re seeing that’s problematic?
I suppose I should just go through and read it myself :/ I was considering adding it as a resource on a local domestic violence website, but if there are too many pro-abuse stories on there I probably shouldn’t.
“You have something to lose.”
How quickly we forget.
She’s planting seeds. She’s playing the long con. She’s getting on everybody’s good side so they don’t hate HER more than they hate RUTH the next time Mary tries some evil bullshit.
I’m not sure what you’d call this kind of action, it’s not really gaslighting, not really plausible deniability, but a weird, distorted mix of the two. There’s probably a term for it but I’m not sure. They’re not going to be doubting their own sanity, but doubting that they KNOW Mary is an evil douchebag. So not quite gaslighting.
When she pulls her revenge off on Ruth and Billie down the road, and Billie spills what Mary did/tried to do, by then everybody will have been used to the “new” Mary. And no one will back Ruth or Billie up(maybe almost nobody at least, somebody might swoop in if Willis wants to give us a happy almost ending to that plot line, maybe Joyce, maybe Carla, maybe Rachel, who knows).
It’s why she’s laying this shit on so thick, even on Carla. Prancing around in a white dress all sing-songy and happy and smiles. That didn’t just fucking HAPPEN.
The last time we saw her before this white dress thing happened she was literally grinning evilly at Billie and telling her she has something to lose.
This, or some version of this, is her plan.
lmao still @ like sorry but one last thing b/c all these comments speculating over mary’s deal last few days and whether it has to do with ryan personally or some master plan of evil, etc. and like
one last comment now that i am just sitting here giggling at these theories on mary getting out of control (my own included) because come on guys, it could be some master plan or history with ryan OR MAYBE hey so you know what else makes people nice and cheery, girl got laid.
prolly mary just had an awesome-fucking friday night w/pun intended and the endorphin high is riding her high enough that she…gasp…feels like being nice to the sinners for a change!!
because why not? love the sinner, hate the sin; all that, god will send them to hell in good time! good morning songs! sunshine and rainbows!! she’ll even pay a compliment to the [insert awful slur here] and well gee shit there was a religious dude who did a…uh, a sin thing the other day. and oh shit maybe the others might suspect that mary, the holiest one, might also be capable of–IT’S AMAZING HOW PEOPLE WILL USE THEIR FAITH TO JUSTIFY ANYTHING YOU GUYS BUT MAN I SURE DO BELIEVE THAT IS BAD AND I WOULD NEVER WANT TO
“Yes, Mary, I agree whole-heartedly. Without a hint of irony. But I’m speaking for myself in that.”
Non-hateful Mary is weird. I don’t think I’m the only one here but non-hateful Mary is honeymoon phasing like whoa.
Something is building with her and I don’t know what it is and it makes me worried.
Pot, the kettle’s on the phone for you. Something about you being black.
Whoa! Joyce swore. She must be really upset if she swore. Not that I can blame her.
Mary really really really needs to have the shit beaten out of her.
Buh..what…um…ow.
Even Mary has standards, evidently.