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“what kinda dictionaries are you reading? proper nouns ‘n what not”
The New Century Dictionary (1946 edition) has an index of geographical names at the end so India and Indiana do indeed appear next to each other in that dictionary. Page 2647, I think.
The out of date college dictionary I read cover to cover for no good reason when I was about ten had proper nouns, a list of prefixes and suffixes, four alphabets and a whole page about semicolons. I didn’t really take the last one to heart, but that’s beside the point.
all the dictionaries i read at school had all the rude words underlined until i got to secondary school, then they were highlighted in pink or bright yellow
No, she couldn’t have. As much as I love Jocelyne, she is still a propagator of the infallible patriarchy. It’s how she was raised, not her fault, and she can try to break it, but for now she has shown me she is more or less part of it.
Literally everyone is raised to be a propagator of patriarchy. Everyone. The implication that Jocelyne does so more than Joyce does (who just yesterday was laying down concepts of a woman’s role in marriage that are patriarchal to the core, and bucked Dorothy’s suggestion that it could be otherwise) by lieu of having been assigned a male gender at birth is kinda gross? Unless you meant something else by this and I’m misreading you, but that’s sort of the implication I’m getting. Sorry in advance if I’m misinterpreting.
Oh, no, sorry. My fault, I should have been clearer, and you’re right, Joyce is terrible with that stuff, obviously (she’s growing but not great). At least she’s trying (she had to have a lesbian best friend and be held up for it to happen), I don’t see any of that from Jocelyne until now.
It is about gender, but not what Jocelyne was assigned at birth. I meant that there is no way she could’ve stood up to her brother because as a woman that would help further deconstruct it as Joyce was doing. Plus she’s been uber passive at all points before this, in part due to hiding sure, but you can’t tell me none of it is due to this. She didn’t help her sister because she’s scared and “it isn’t her place, she isn’t allowed to disagree.” She hid behind her menu, knowing full well her sister is right.
If any of this came across as close-minded or misinformed, I apologize. and please inform me where I’m wrong or if I made fallacies.
I don’t agree at all that there was “no way she could’ve”, because she is absolutely capable. I’m not even going to try to respond to the bit about “because as a woman that would help further deconstruct it as Joyce was doing,” because to be frank, I don’t understand what you meant by it at all.
I think Jocelyne is scared. But she’s not scared that it isn’t her place. She’s scared about what will happen if she begins to fight back against her family. She is stuck in an incredibly toxic situation. I’m not sure what she has in terms of resources for getting away from them, her own money, etc., but regardless of whether she could cut off ties with them or not, it’s a really hard situation that she’s in. As she once said to Ethan, she’s afraid she’ll say some things she can’t ever take back. Of course, in this strip, it seems like she may finally have had enough.
“She hid behind her menu, knowing full well her sister is right.” This makes it sound like she was ashamed or felt at fault because of what Joyce was saying, and I don’t think that’s the case. I think she hid because, as I said before, she is worried about what will happen when conflict breaks out. She tried to divert the conversation to protect Joyce and Becky and to avoid the conflict, but I don’t think she in any way wants to silence what they have to say.
Your opinion definitely makes more sense, and helps me understand why so many are mad at me. You are totally right, and now I see where I was making connections that aren’t strong at all frankly. I do get how it should be read as her trying to avoid conflict until now. That has just never been my strong suit, as you can tell with this thread.
This is how debates should be. It’s nice to see people explaining themselves without resorting to thinly veiled attacks and actually listening to responses rather than just getting defensive.
The sad thing is how often things go the other way instead
I just don’t understand what you’re getting at. Yes, it would be completely out of character for Joss right now to have said this in front of Joyce. Yes, it would have been a bad idea for her to do it, given how John was acting, since at least part of what John was doing was trying to save face.
Yeah, maybe she has internalized some of the female gender roles of being passive, maybe even pursuing them because she’s female and that’s how women are “supposed” to act. And, yeah, she probably was raised to believe in the whole familial hierarchy where the bigger brother (as long as he’s a Christian) is an authority.
But it seems a bit simplistic to put it down to upholding the patriarchy. Especially when that’s a common refrain of the anti-trans feminists.
(They think trans people are upholding the patriarchy by claiming to have an innate gender.)
Are the feminist that oppose trans people because of the concept of innate gender? I always read the argument as “trans people were encourage to transition by (certain parts of) society because if they transition, they don’t threaten the traditional gender roles.” An either conform or transition- approach by society which puts more pressure on women who do stuff traditionally not supposed to be done by women.
Nothing to be sorry for! Language is strange and imperfect, it’s friggin’ difficult trying to get the full scope of thought across and misunderstandings spring from that. If anything I’m sorry for drawing an incorrect conclusion!
It’s true! women are women are women regardless if they’re cis or not. Trans women get an even shorter end of the stick than cis women do because transmisogyny is like regular misogyny… but super-charged.
I don’t get why you’re saying this. Yes, we’re probably all propagators of the patriarchy to a degree, so you’re right in that sense. But why on earth are you zeroing in on Jocelyne? She is a member of a demographic that suffers the worst from the patriarchy and from the gender binary itself.
So why didn’t Jocelyne say this in the restaurant? She was afraid. And if that’s true, why is she saying it now? Because people aren’t automatons that say exactly the right thing at any given moment. It’s hard to make the right decision in a tense moment. It’s hardly ever done by anyone, imo. It’s really, really difficult.
Excuse me? Are you forgetting that she is trans existing in a trans-unfriendly space? Did you know trans people are often murdered in these spaces? Let me give an incredible “fuck you” for accusing Joss of being a part of something that would literally murder her if she went up against it.
Holy shit you’re right. I did definitely deserve that, I hope what I said explains my view for everyone else, but actually yeah.
I was just too hopeful in thinking maybe they could be like Joyce, and once someone close has these issues with oppression they could change, but they aren’t…
Sorry
I do think the fact she’s being forced to be silent instead of supporting Becky is something like a special torture for Josie. She wants to help and be supportive but it could very well be physically dangerous. Not to mention financially if they’re struggling. Which makes it no less like a punch in the gut.
Jocelyne is /likely/ pretty appraised on this stuff seeing as she’s young and in the modern era (and Gay males still have pride of place in queer networks, so what Becky’s gone through shouldn’t be unheard of for her). She’s scared because she has cause to be.
Oh yeah, very much ditto on that. Including the almost dying part. Jocelyne will have a tough fucking road ahead and that’s a major part of why she’s scared. The other part is that she is incensed by it all, but she knows if she gives in to that anger she risks outting herself and that’s the ballgame.
Hell, I’d say it’s guaranteed that she’s stewing in anger all the time, especially with family. When you’re a girl, but everyone thinks you’re a boy and thus you’ll fully agree with their ultra toxic masculinity and sexist views of women, it’s hard not to be.
It’s like having a front row seat to the partiarchy’s worst showing.
It really doesn’t ‘help to be heavily armed’. Then you’re an extremist and it’s okay to kill you anyway. And you kinda have to sleep, and aren’t omniscient besides.
so you’re saying that, on pain of death, she’s upholding a part of the patriarchy?
Look, part of the point of saying things like “EVERYONE is sexist” or “Everyone is racist” is that, you know, we actually mean them, rather than using them as a shibboleth. Jocelyne is both victim and inadvertent, unwilling supporter. It /is/ fucked up to go after her more for it than the gal we know is way more gung ho on supporting patriarchy as a rule, but she DID just allow patriarchy to continue by inaction. I’m not going to get MAD about it, because yeah, even without the fear of death (Which is completely a legit fear for her), she’s still ultimately afraid (of a dozen other terrible things), but that doesn’t change that Joyce just suffered directly from patriarchy, and Jocelyne didn’t try to stop it.
Whether you agree or disagree, whether patriarchy hurts or helps you, makes no fucking difference. Did you support it through your action, or your inaction? If so, what you did is sexist. If that hurts you, well, it’s kind of immaterial to that question. “Is what you did something I should be angry with you about” is not actually the same question as “Is what you did sexist”
I really, really, REALLY don’t need any fucking Brave Defenders who will deny my agency, or people who want to strip the complexities of life away. These things are hard and life sucks. Sometimes you don’t get a good choice – you just have to choose shitty options. Jocelyne’s choices suck – let John abuse the patriarchy to hurt Joyce, or open herself up to abuse for opposing him publicly. I *respect* her decision, but I’m not going to deny what it did.
Considering I don’t identify as a feminist that would be bad. Also wasn’t trying to say that, but obviously I don’t know how to voice my opinions correctly, I apologize.
Jocelyne is being *far* more effective talking to John one on one. That is, this way she has a chance of having a positive effect. If she’d spoken up in front of the evil sinner, she would have had no chance to do anything except undermine her own credibility in John’s eyes. Especially since she wouldn’t have been able to get the dig in about the fancy car bought by the poor for his use. I’ve had some second thoughts about something I said about John never seeing someone else’s problems as his own because of his missionary status, but if he’s driving that car around without guilt, he’s either an entirely thoughtless bastard or a sociopath. I’m hoping for thoughtless bastard, as that leaves some room for growth.
I think she may be forced to find a new ride home, depending whether John continues doubling down (likely) or not (in which case, he instead wants to try to prove he is a) a good christian and b) using the car well by getting Joss home.)
If only there was someone else there with a car.
Someone who’s also her family.
Someone who’s much safer for her to be around.
Someone she desperately wants to support.
Yeah, because Joss carpet-bombing her relationship with her entire family and hometown before she is established in life as a safe and assured independent, and doing so in such a way that would likely also guarantee her sister’s relationship with the family is destroyed, which would cost said sister her free college education from said family, is an absolutely sane and rational decision. Beyond that, you know how awful a position Becky is in right now? I can almost guarantee that at this early point in her college life, her adult life, Joyce’s parents could immediately leave her in the same position just by disowning her, let alone actively making it difficult for her to get what she needs to establish herself in life in the many ways that Toedad has for Becky?
Oh, not to mention that despite their despicable collection of human failings, Joss probably still loves at least some of her family, and knows that an explosive fucking drama bomb of in-fighting with unrepentant sinners will cost said family their entire social standing in their lifelong hometown, their very important positions in their church, even her older brother’s entire career and adult life up to this point. All of that could be gone in months or even weeks if this situation were to blow up into something that makes public record, or even generates the right rumours. I bet that Joss is plenty aware what most of the town is talking about related to this situation, and I bet it isn’t good. People can have genuinely shitty parents and any way Joss chooses to deal with that problem would be completely justified, but it’s entirely her choice to play this situation out how she thinks will keep everyone safer, or happier.
Joss is a meek person, but a calculating one, and she hopefully has some kind of long-term plan for gently making a clean break. Fuck, as meek as she has been shown to be, maybe she currently plans to stay closeted indefinitely – and that is absolutely a valid choice, despite the fact that it’s tragic and would make us all feel very sad, and possibly even make some people here outright hate her like she is some kind of traitor to trans* people. But undermining 25+ years of careful balancing to try to set herself up for a position where she could possibly live her life safely and happily by escalating a situation which may blow over with sufficient damage control and siding with her sister when she knows full well the family can’t possibly respect her as a sensible adult with meaningful agency is highly unlikely to help her sister or Becky, and will possibly destroy her own life in the process.
We would all love to see Joss take the warrior angle on this. It would be immediate, vindicating, and a beautiful symbolic and literal moment. But, the consequences are levels of dire that perhaps some people who haven’t experienced this sort of situation will find it difficult to comprehend. Even knowing of how dire they are, some in such a situation would choose to accept those consequences, and while that would be brave as hell for Joss to do, that does not make it the right choice, or the best choice, but simply the most honest and most satisfying. Once again, we know nothing about Joss’ long-term plan, and very little about her in general; we’re being clearly shown what Joss would like to do and projecting our desires to see her gain all the self-actualizing she would gain from finally getting to live true to who she is, and what she believes in, but with her upbringing this kind of dramatic moment is, if nothing else, not something she would ever just “jump into” the way that, say, Becky has.
But if anyone doubts the stakes here, please consider this and think about it in terms of precisely why Joss would want to see this blow over instead of come to a head; Joss is a member of the LGBQT community, and a member of the fundamentalist community, so she therefore knows well the dangers of being associated with the former and the reactionary attitudes of the latter. These girls are in a small American town that is predominantly fundamentalist, where their family is a well-known, well-respected, well-connected fixture of the community, and the young patriarch of the family is the local goddamned minister. Just think about what such a family could possibly do to solve the problem of a trouble-making, defiant, embarrassment of a daughter. Just think about the fact that this family is politically connected in the town’s hierarchy due to how deeply and thoroughly they are involved with the church, and that the vast majority of citizens and authority figures share their moral sensibilities. What if Joyce’s family decided that saving face with their community was worth more than their daughter’s safety, or even her life? Honour killings are a real thing, and not many questions would ever be asked if she were to suddenly disappear and never come back. Joyce is not in the same position as Joss to understand how much danger she may actually be putting herself in, so it’s great to see her react to all this in a way that mirrors our own frustration and disgust. But in Joss’ mind, I’m sure she’s trying to find a way to keep her sister from obliterating her current, privileged position in life for a simple moral victory that Joyce will be in a much safer position to assume after enacting a long-term plan.
Maybe I’m being excessively pessimistic, protective, or even paranoid with the extent to which I believe the danger could escalate in this situation. But not only is that level of discrepancy absolutely called for by those who are trapped in such situations, it suits the thinking of somebody brought up in such a hostile environment. John nailed the attitude of these people perfectly in his shut-down to Becky: People get what they deserve, and because you chose to do wrong, you should have expected all of the consequences that befell you and accept them as God’s will, and summary punishment for your wrongs. Even if you take the God parts out of it, this style of thinking often leads to that sort of never-ending forward-thinking and meticulous planning for the simple fact that you have internalized all outcomes as your direct responsibility and hold yourself fully accountable for ensuring that nothing bad ever happens.
I could have ascribed far too much thought into Joss’ motivations, but if nothing else, any and all deviations from her script with her family have a chance of raising suspicions she doesn’t want raised. If you think being a lesbian sympathizer isn’t going to go over well with the conservative establishment of a small town, think about the amount of immediate danger Joss would be in if she were ever outed before she has made a safe, clean break from the entire town? Being a gay ally is one thing, but a trans* person, in a place like that, from a family like that? She wouldn’t just be at risk from her family, anybody in that place might try to seriously hurt her. It could end up with a full-on lynch mob. Joss is meek, and scared, and is therefore understandably careful with how she handles her affairs, and if anybody is judging her for that they are seriously off their mark.
I do wish I was a bit nicer in retrospect, but I also wanted to be off-putting to try to highlight the actual gravity of this scenario, which might be lost on some people.
She could however fake it. Stay and talk to Joyce & Becky under the guise of “getting her to calm down”. And then try to make it clear to Joyce that while she supports her, it’s really best for both to try to stay low key.
If only because a long car ride with John and/or talking to Mom in this state might be even more dangerous.
This is what I’ve been hoping (or she at least keeps it under the implication of ‘that car is unchristian’ and not an unplanned ‘I’m an LGBQXYZ too, you snot’ no matter how satisfying it would be)
Yep.
She’s accusing John of being a hypocritical asshole without peeping a word in support of LGBT+ cause. She’s not breaking her relationship with her entire family but just leaving him and going to Joyce. Her secret is still safe.
What I want Jocelyne to say”Forget about Becky for a minute. A man we have known or who life came to our sister’s school. Aimed a gun at her and her best friend. FIRED that gun into the air. Kidnapped her best friend at gun point from right next to her and after a series of very dangerous actions one of the only things our sister could do about all of this is hit the man who did all of this before he was arrested. Then instead of getting comfort and support from her family after a newer life ending event her family keeps focusing on one aspect of one of the victims and essentially siding with the man who could have and seemed willing to SHOOT AND KILLED HER. You say she needs to calm down but maybe…. you should be thinking about her and not Becky and getting angry.” Not going to happen but I can wish.
And once more Fuck you John DIAF and I know we haven’t meet her but your wife must be a moron to marry you.
I think John’s feeling a little grab in the ol hypocrite jeans, as he sort of left the “T” out of the LGBQXYZ alphabet-soup there. Probably would have earned himself a clout in the ear if he’d put it in there, though, considering close company.
Kept thinking about that yesterday. How hypocritical John and his mother have been. “We support Ross because he is a part of our religious community.” Isn’t Joyce also a member of your religious community? As well as a member of your family?
Yep. That’s probably what they’re afraid of facing psychologically. I mean, I don’t think Carol liked Ross *either.* She just wasn’t going to let that stand in the way of never being wrong.
holy crap, is this a thing that happens?! I mean when i was a kid and was part of a christian (catholic) community we pitched in and bought our priest a car but that was a separate thing from the charity donations and he’d been a art of the community for decades at that point. is John even a pastor? or is he just a missionary? I admit i’m fuzzy on how it works in Protestant communities. I’m only catholic anymore when my grandma asks.
He probably works for one of those super-douchy tv churches that sends people envelopes asking them to “plant a seed”. Jocelyne didn’t necessarily misspeak when she said “tithings from the poor”.
Yeah, I had automatically read it as for at first (‘cos that’s how my church works and how any sane system would be set up), but I caught it on the second read. It literally hadn’t occurred to me because what the ever-living fuck.
That’s some televangelist / talk radio host level shit there, John.
No, he’s a missionary in India, I suspect Jocelyne’s statement was basically correct. That money was supposed to come from the poor, to support a church, and he took it.
I mean, probably legally, and probably on the grounds of ‘I didn’t need ALL of this money to set up a church in India, it’s cheap there”. Either way, whatever EXACT mechanism he used, there’s still no legitimate method for a missionary pastor to have a mustang that isn’t “I married into wealth” (Not actually impossible.)
People buying themselves private jets with the donations they get from the poor, sick and elderly is a thing (justified by them NEEDING a private jet to preach, somehow), so someone getting a car out of the same folks isn’t that surprising.
There is a looong history of (presumably not exclusively) American preachers getting rich off of donations, particularly among televised preachers (televangelists). Many American preachers don’t belong to any denomination and are beholden to no one.
There is also a belief among many American eVANGELICALS THAT caps lock is the devil- material success correlates with god’s approval of you; essentially the poor wouldn’t be poor if they didn’t deserve it, and the same for the rich.
It’s not a new or unknown phenomenon by any means. Now enjoy a topical rock song – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MixVbumoDWU
I don’t think Hank has literally done much that would take him out of the “we should hate him without compassion or mercy” bubble, but he seems to be written distinctly more moderate than the rest of the family in a pointed way that suggests to me in a meta-narrative way that Willis could actually plan for him to, in the long run, come around to reason and recognize that he is on the wrong side of his family for his own interpretation of Jesus’ teachings, similar to how Joyce has. The mother is unsalvageable, John is unsalvageable, but maybe there is hope for dear old dad to be a decent human being.
“Go ahead and try to hit us if you’re able
Can’t you see that our sisterhood is stable?
You can tsk and preach and scoff and threaten hellfire,
But we’ll knock you down with all the force of God’s ire”
“And you’re not gonna snark at us two together,
We are gonna stay like this forever.
If you preach us apart, we’ll just quip back better,
And we’ll always be twice the human you are.”
They’re only quality blows if she actually got through John’s armor. I perceive it’s within the parameters of possibility, plausibility, and perhaps probability that John’s perpetually, permanently unperturbed by people pointing out his putridness.
It’s a design choice I appreciate for a variety of reasons. Partly because my sister & I got our father’s blue-gray eyes and my brothers got my mom’s dark brown eyes. Partly because it helps make it so children don’t just look like clones of their same-sex parent in simple art styles. And partly for that great nod to Joc’s gender
We’ll see when Jordan appears, whether the reasonableness gene is attached to the same chromosome as the eye colour gene. (Unless Willis decides to mess with us and give him Hank’s eyes anyway.)
Though now I’m imaging (like, really just imagining, don’t actually believe this is the case) that John didn’t include the T because he views it as different and not part of this “trendy” LGBQXYZ; he’s actually surprisingly pretty okay with the T.
I’m guessing it’s more like when people say “Black, White, Purple, whatever”. And everyone who isn’t black or white is all “Hey… you shot off into imaginary people before even thinking about us.”
Yup, it’s a microaggression. It’s a reminder that not only are you an unperson and viewed as total garbage by the bigot you’re talking to… you’re also less than that garbage, not even acknowledged, seen as something almost fictional.
And it ends up being a reminder of how far your movement has to go and the itching knowledge that eventually once you’ve fought for years for visibility, you’ll rise to the position of being even more actively hated for what you are.
Yeah. As evidenced by the fact that the response to the unparalleled trans visibility of 2015 was 2016’s unparalleled wave of legislative attempts to pass laws effectively banning our very existence in public or ability to lead public lives. Sometimes visibility fucking sucks, y’all.
Not John, who is just showing contempt, but that was me back in the day. I actually was under the mistaken idea that gay men were really women and lesbians were really men, and that trans people were just more honest about it.
Yeah, I bought that being gay was wrong (from what I was taught), but being trans never seemed to be. Either they were sick, in which case it was horrible to have a problem with them, or they really were the other gender, and then of course they’d try to wear the other gender’s clothes. It would be sinful for them to do otherwise! (Yes, there really is such a scripture.)
Don’t get me wrong. While I am still a Christian, I don’t believe any of the anti-gay or anti-clothing stuff today. I’m just discussing how I grew up.
And I don’t think this applies to John at all. I didn’t even show that level of contempt towards gay people when I thought they were sinners.
So are all naturalists be us black, white, Chinese, Indian, native American, Asian, gay, straight, bi, trans, asexual, or any other race, gender, orientation you can think of
My only problem with naturism is that I wouldn’t be able to get through the day without laughing like a maniac. For some reason I cannot think of boobs as anything but hilarious and I think it might be a problem.
I’ve encountered at least one trans woman who was virulently homophobic, insisting that gay men were all secretly trans women, and vice-versa. (The notion of a trans lesbian, for instance, was completely unthinkable to her, as was the idea of bisexuality as anything other than a sign the person was simply a deviant of the highest order.)
In addition to the religious aspect trikly refers to, there’s also the fact that for many trans people, especially in conservative areas, the gatekeeping to get your trans status approved is intense, and rife with gender-policing. If you find a doctor willing to sign the forms at all, you frequently have to prove yourself to be an idyllic form of your true gender, as determined by traditional roles. So trans women are expected to be ultra-feminine housewives, while trans men have to be uber-masculine alpha males.
I was a bit shocked the first time I met a gay man who claimed that bisexuals were just faking it. Since then I learned that that has been a not uncommon “thing”. Before that point I had assumed that the LGBTQ-community were all sort of on the same page, but of course it’s going to have a ton of internal biases because everyone’s just people, after all.
I’ve read that a lot of bi kids are at significant more risk of mental health illness than usual, stemming from the idea that they can get shit from within the Queer community as well as out of it when we’ve built it up to be a safe haven of tolerance and understanding.
Part of that one stems from the unfortunate nature of ‘coming out’ in parts of this country. Since conservatives insist that being gay is a choice, then one consequence of that is that if you aren’t straight, you’re gay. So a kid in a situation like Becky’s has a romantic relationship (or even just recognizes the attraction) and decides they must be homosexual. (Note that neither Becky nor Joyce seems to have heard of the concept of a bisexual in their pre-comic lives.)
So, they go through the whole coming-out process, including lots of intense emotions and counseling and group struggles and so on. And they get to be in a lot of other people’s lives as well. Then they fall for someone of the opposite sex, and everyone is confused, and maybe former same-sex lovers feel betrayed/deceived. It’s a situation where ignorance of how this all actually works leads to a lot of confusion and doubt.
So, stories like that get passed around the gay community (usually only from one side), and pretty soon you get, “There’s no such thing as bisexual.”
There’s also a thing where people aren’t quite willing to fully embrace being gay and try to hang on to some normalcy or just continuity be thinking of themselves as bi, but eventually admit that they’re really only interested in the same sex. Then they or those who’ve watched them go through that, try to help others accept they’re actually gay.
Which does happen and is even well-intentioned, but still contributes to bi-erasure.
The problem, of course, is when those folks who were gay but “tried to hold onto normalcy” deny bisexuality as a valid sexual orientation.
This view of bisexuality as a half measure until admitting you were really gay all along and nothing previous mattered is a huge component of the bi-erasure epidemic.
Absolutely. But it is a thing that happens and it’s understandable when they think others are going through the same process. Wrong, but understandable. Less so in this day and age which is far more open about such things than even a decade or so ago. At least once people are past the Dan/Becky “Is that even a thing?” stage.
Lots of bigotry is understandable. It still hurts and it should still be squashed out so people never have to go through that “is that even a thing” stage.
I noticed but that’s coincidentally around the point where most people stop remembering the rest, or pretend not to remember the rest because it proves they actually recognize it all
though it would be super-weird to be okay with trans* but NONE OF THE REST–that’s like skipping some steps
It’s a cure for homosexuality, but it’s also totally a thing (And probably better accepted there than here, since even as a top-down dictate it still is unlikely to have remained in effect for 2 decades without at least broad support (Even among the rural people, since the people of the cities are generally more liberal than those who live in the states).
I mean, the general population of Iran isn’t more progressive than that of the states – IE if you count rural and rural. But it’s by no means some enormous gap that Meriken simply automatically win like they tend to imagine. Which is pretty true as a rule, afaik.
Well my impression and what I was getting at is that it’s about as accepted there as homosexuality is here, which is, you know, not great, esp. when you look at rural people or conservatives, but the contrast basically shows that intolerance (and partial/incomplete progression of tolerance on a societal level) comes in all sorts of flavors and you can’t really generalize there being “steps” or that accepting trans people is automatically a “higher level” than accepting gay people.
They do more surgery than thailand. Thailand is one of the most common places for Westerners to go (and plenty, even in more accepting countries, will still go to thailand). I’m sure it’s still not great, but there’s only so much room for this handwringing about how it’s ‘like the USA’.
It’s partially intentional. Folks like John do not believe in trans people. Trans people are just “extreme versions of gay people”. Like someone gays so hard they become a trans person. As such, of course they are not going to honor it, because in their eyes a (slur for gay male) is a (slur for gay male).
Don’t forget, all the people just putting it aside as a mental disease and it should be cured with Pimozide or something like that. In my experience that is the kind of opinion you meet when talking with “Intellectuals” any way.
“Someone gays so hard they become a trans person.”
That made me laugh in a really darkly amused way. I have been gaying all over the place for many years and still no penis Gotta keep buyin’ em at the store.
Sorry if insensitive, but sometimes I really think all the shitty nonsense bigots believe is ridiculous enough to be a joke. <3
Laughing at other people’s utterly irrational, unwavering stupidity is one of the most benign forms of dark humor probably. It may make you seem a bit insensitive but at least you’re not being actively offensive.
Actually historically it’s always been the other way around; LBGA people were all violating our traditional gender roles, by not wanting to marry and have kids in the Proper Heteronormative Fashion. So we were seen as “basically trans”, rather than trans folk being seen as “basically gay”.
I mean, transphobic cis LGBs have done a bang up job of trying to shift the umbrella so as to make same-gender attraction (esp. exclusive same-gender attraction) the primary reason for oppression, so that we can uh I guess feel more important and authoritative as we try to toss other people out of “”our”” movement for not being gay enough… but yeah, historically it’s not true. And in terms of which groups of us suffer the most extreme effects of LGBTQIAphobia, it’s pretty clear that it’s still not true. A white cis gay man is not, in fact, the most at-risk demographic.
Sure, though I wouldn’t be so quick to say “started by feminists” as if there was no overlap? See: the Spinster Movement, which was made up of LBA and feminist women. Feminism, asexuality, and WLW all united in an attempt to fight back.
HALLELUJAH, these words. I am sick to death of the sga model tacking on “or you could be trans I guess, then you can be part of the community too” as if…. the reason for being targeted is and always has been sga…..
Plus it’s incredibly obviously about excluding people (particularly aces).
/stands up for my ace and aro honorary siblings forever
I know it doesn’t always feel like this, but I swear to you: some of us recognize that the gatekeeping crap being lobbed your way right now is exactly the same transphobic and biphobic crap we’ve rejected before (are still rejecting now), and are only more determined to not tolerate it being used again.
You are valid and real and important and that you’ve been deliberately erased from history doesn’t make you any less deserving of a seat at the table.
True, very true. Which I think makes it easier for bigots to lump us all together (and is the reason that trans and other queer rights have always been intertwined). In their eyes, we’re all “sinning” against “proper gender roles” and trans people are just “sinning” harder than the rest.
And it tends to all stem from the same pit of anxious toxic masculinity, terrified that the separation between men and women isn’t the uncrossable gaping chasm they want it to be.
YEP. I think the thing to remember when looking at how we’re categorized is to remember that the cis straight dyadic hegemony has never given the tiniest of craps about how we differ from each other or why; we are all, have always been, weird and wrong to them. That’s why we were all “queer”. Because we failed the test for “normal”, because we our non-normality was incredibly threatening for their concept of society; not because we were specifically some degree of gay. And they sure as heck didn’t care to distinguish between someone exclusively gay and someone ace, because both had the same result of not wanting to get married and have kids.
But that’s why I’m nonbinary–maximum gay! Feelings for a dude? It’s gay. Feelings for a lady? Also gay. Feelings for another nb person? Super mega gay. Maximum gay: achieved. (I mean I’m also ace which people loooooove like to bring up to invalidate 100% of that, but only if they’re an asshat)
Oh I have gotten the “How is your “boyfriend”” from people. They literally do air quotes. So tempting to respond that “he is getting further than you ever will.”
Or the one I get from the a bunch of the kids at the college Queer Alliance, “You are just afraid to come out as gay.” Well no honey, I am biromantic and open about it, and most people I know would give me less shit for being gay.
Actually, I became “okay with trans” back in the ’80s, long before I became a decent human being on this stuff. It was a case of my sexism and homophobia beating up my transphobia. See, there was this James Bond Girl named Tula, who was trans, who did nude photo spreads. Somewhere, deep in my mind while flipping through the magazine, I came to the conclusion that either she was a woman, or I was gay–and being gay in the 80s was simply unacceptable even as a remote thought, so “trans woman = woman” it was.
I agree that that’s more likely. But, riddle me this…
Which is more interesting: Somebody who’s a bigot through and through? Or somebody who’s a bigot through and through, yet practices some bizarre form of mental gymnastics such that they can support their trans (and straight!) sister Jocelyne, but reject the rest of the lgbt+ community on the basis of being sinning trend-chasers that are distracting from the only important issue, the one that effects the people I know personally?
But frankly, if that were John’s exact attitude towards Joss, I wouldn’t take it as any sort of kindness or concession. It would simply be him choosing to specifically pardon his sister’s sin, while still fully internally believing that Joss is an abomination and subhuman, for either the sake of appearances or being utterly incapable of expanding his worldview beyond his privileged existence. That makes him a special kind of asshole, and a complete and total hypocrite.
I agree that it would be incredibly interesting if John were consciously sensitive towards Jocelyn. Unfortunately, with him addressing them as “Josh” in yesterday’s strip, it’s likely that John either isn’t aware of Joss’s situation, or (worse) he does know and is entirely dismissive of it.
Interestingly, I got it from an acquaintance of a friend of James Dobson, the founder and erstwhile president of Focus on the Family, that dear Dr Dobson believes just this. Trans people have a physical problem (i.e., being born into a body with a sex that doesn’t match who they are) and should be accepted and supported, but gay people have a sexual perversion that they indulge. So yeah. Apparently it’s a thing.
I don’t think I knew ‘T’ was a part of the acronym until a couple of years ago. If I was to have ‘Alphabet Soup’ the acronym, I’ve of done the same.Hell, I don’t think I even realized that the ‘T’ part of it was a thing at all, and my life was only partly sheltered. Perhaps John doesn’t know Trans people exist as well.
I grew up knowing “LGBT” without actually knowing the deciphering. I also knew “LGBT+” and “LGBTQ” (and “LGBTQ+”). Everything past that just disintegrates into alphabet soup for me… I prefer MOGAI XD
QUILTBAG does seem more fun, but seeing it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Think I’ve heard the term ‘queerbag’ used as an insult to a bi friend before.
He has no reason to actually learn or internalize everything, but due to being younger and also the importance of keeping up his appearance as a stoic and learned moral paragon of his ministry, he has to pretend to make an effort such that he differentiates himself from the more openly bigoted people with whom he agrees, yet must look and feel superior towards. By learning anything at all, he’s satisfied himself with his own exploration of the topic because he knows that he knows more about “that sort of trendy nonsense” than his peer group, which is exactly the same in his mind as actually giving the concepts and ideas an actual, critical, fair shake.
I don’t think they got to the “ordering” phase. I don’t know this restaurant chain, but I doubt they’re out more than some water and maybe some rolls or something.
And in half an hour, once they’ve eaten (Chicken fingers after all), they come out to find John and Jocelyne still in a screaming match in the parking lot.
Could be a Prosperity Gospel thing of some sort. An American evangelist, Creflo Dollar, has been getting a lot of press in recent months because he wants his congregation to donate funds for a 60 million buck bizjet for supposed evangelisation purposes.
That’s been a controversial point in the news before. The tithe goes to the church and is supposed to be used to spread the word of God… But if the preacher gets a fancy new car, well, if it helps him proselytize, who cares?
… if the preacher gets a fancy new car (or $60M jet), well, if it helps him proselytize, who cares?
—————————
It is beyond amazing just how people will twist the word of God when they need it to support their particular position, desire, or lifestyle.
I wouldn’t stretch to “Amazing”, really. Considering how many words they are and the it all has the verifiability of a fortune cookie it’s really a wonder that people have managed to form large consensuses at all.
A parsonage is fairly standard going back to at least the middle ages. It means that there is a place fro the pastor near the church and is a relatively sound investment for a fair size church as it can reduce the pastors needed salary, especially once the building is paid off it can reduce. In the churches that rotate pastors like the United Methodist it also save an incoming pastor from taking out a mortgage every few years.
And parsonages aren’t usually McMansions. I grew up as a PK (ELCA Lutheran), and I remember the fun that ensued when it was discovered that the basement wall of the parsonage was visibly bowing inwards. Time for committees, which always move fast!
Yeah, that’s not a big deal. It’s a house that they have for the pastor, and it’s a lot cheaper than paying him to have a large enough salary to actually buy a house. And he gets to be nearby, so he can get to the church quickly–which not only helps the parishioners, but also keeps transportation costs down.
You can’t literally have all the money coming to the church be spent on the poor–unless everyone working there is independently wealthy. That’s not really the issue. The issue is, as Joss pointed out, that a brand new car is not remotely necessary for his mission in India. Especially not a car that is back her in America.
Letting him borrow a car while he’s back would make sense, but a brand new car? That is just wasteful. And makes me think he’s not even the type of missionary who has to work when he comes back home.
I would like to take a small amount of pride in saying no mission or congregation I have been a part of was ever that wasteful. It really is amazing just how fast my opinion of John sank. I really wanted to like him.
I remember one priest get a car that expensive from our church… Three days later when I saw him at school for Wednesday mass he had sold it and was giving the money to the school for some to quote “new god damn paint” for the drama department. The uniforms it bought for the basketball team were… Infuriating.
I don’t think that’s accurate. I think in his case he may be blind enough to his own inherent hypocrisy that it’s more like “my sister was almost killed, but it was the direct consequence of her sins, and she needs to learn the lesson that God is trying to teach her with His Plan.”
There needs to be a group consisting of Joyce, Becky, Ethan, Danny, Walky, Dorothy, Billie, Ruth, Marcie, Carla, and Malaya standing behind her going “OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH” every time she says something boss.
I can’t say any of the things I truly think/would like to see visited upon this family which would embarrass even the Old Testament God. This seems like a nice enough place, and I don’t much want to be banned from commenting over it.
The problem is that he’s the one making the consequences. Like, being a lesbian needn’t have consequences, except that people like John and Ross are utterly horrible assholes about it.
You know, it’s actually incredible how little he seems to care for Joyce (and Becky, but Joyce is his SISTER so it’s more surprising). Does he even realize her life was literally in danger? She had a friggin rifle aimed at her. Does he somehow not realize that? Does he not care?
If he acknowledges she has a genuine point it strengthens her position and weakens his. Suddenly the lesbian is in the right and the fundy is in the wrong for acting on his beliefs.
It’s not that he doesn’t care, exactly. It’s that he thinks Ross was in the right to remove Becky from school and make plans for her to be sent to a “correction” camp, and Joyce was in the wrong to deceive a parent (and ngl, Ross being an older man does factor in in this particular sect, and Joyce defying him was beyond wrong to someone like John) when the parent was simply trying to protect their child. (Even though Ross’ form of “parenting” was abuse and kidnapping at gunpoint)
In his line of thinking, Joyce isn’t an adult protecting another adult/friend, Joyce is a dumb little kid lying to the adults to protect a sinful, entitled brat from the “loving correction” of their betters, and they drove Ross to his extreme actions.
So everything Ross did is Becky’s fault, and partly Joyce’s, and they should feel bad for driving Ross to it and getting Ross in trouble, and then daring to act like they were in the right.
If you’ll excuse me, I need to go take a shower and scrub these terrible childhood memories of these sorts of assholes off of my soul.
A singular fairness I can grant to him on this one thing is he probably has had zero involvement in Joyce or her life. He was probably nearly moved out by the time she was walking and talking, they’ve presented him that way. Why would you be close to a family member who was a baby when you lived with them and you then stopped seeing regularly, without some kind of special connection between the two of you?
Making sure to pass laws creating awfulness and suffering for a marginalized group, so you can point to the “harder” lives they live as proof of your superiority and the raw degeneracy of that “lifestyle”.
Encourage bullying in the schools, disownnment of queer kids, and firing them from all jobs and evicting them from all housing and then point to the suicide, homeless, and depression rates as proof of the “unhealthiness” of being queer. It’s the Family Research Council’s life-long shtick.
You know that phrase “Science advances one funeral at a time”? It totally applies to social progress too because half the way we move away from this shit is when the people who believe it have the good grace to fucking bite it.
Wanna know something super gross? “Social skills” therapy for autistic kids includes performance of gender stereotypes.
So if you are an autistic girl who likes weather like I was, your therapy will include trying to “extinguish” the “inappropriate behavior” of preferring meteorology to dolls. When they aren’t holding everything you love hostage to compliance as a “positive reinforcer..”
And autistic folk are WAY more likely to be transmitted and/or various non-straight alignments. Guess how they’re treated, since if you’re autistic you’re not even allowed to know you’re passionate about something. Cuz it’s not a passion, it’s a “special interest”.
As much as I think actions should have consequences (a huge part of agency is feeling that your actions produce proportionate responses) being a lesbian is not an action, and having a gun pointed at you pretty much not an acceptable consequence of any action.
And the refusal to accept that Toedad’s actions (aka. holding your daughter and her friend up at gunpoint) have consequences too, much more legally enshrined ones.
Seriously, life being hard or unfair is not a justification for your concerted efforts to maintain or exacerbate that state, the fact that life is hard and unfair should be something we strive to mitigate not an excuse to be an asshole.
Like, I am no shrinking violet at all, but in Jocelyne’s closeted shoes I’d probably be looking out the car window and trying to be as small as possible. It would be perfectly understandable and okay for her to react that way about all the terrible BS flying around her.
But that’s not what she’s doing, now is it!! YES GO JOCELYNE GO
Note how she’s not saying a thing about the actual issue at hand, she goes off on an independent barely related tangent having to do with John’s personal moral character instead.
Not a word uttered in actual overt support of alphabet soup.
I think Jocelyne was afraid of the conflict, and afraid of John turning his hellfire on her next, and afraid because she was getting a front-row seat to how conditional their family’s support is… but then she sassed him anyway, because she loves Joyce and she knows it’s right and she’s brave.
This also isn’t a direct defense of the lesbian. That’s too scary territory to touch. Comes to close to home.
She can attack John on the greed and hypocrisy without getting close to that. Deflection, but an outlet for the rage that has to be tearing her up.
I love Jocelyn. I want to hug him and just love him forever. Because he understands how it feels to have to hide something from your family because they wouldn’t understand or worse think that he needs to be “reconditioned”. V -V *hugs laptop* > A< YOU TELL HIM JOCELYN!
I know you mean well, but…
“I love Jocelyn. I want to hug *her and just love *her forever. Because *she understands how it feels to have to hide something from your family because they wouldn’t understand or worse think that *she needs to be “reconditioned”. V -V *hugs laptop* > A< YOU TELL HIM JOCELYN!"
Really, has she told anybody? She sent Ethan an SMS with her email addy so he may have some small inkling, but if there are any people that actually know, like members of her LGBTQIAPK support group (did I get all the letters in the correct order?) are people who have not been introduced in-comic as yet.
Ethan doesn’t have an inkling, he straight up knows that Joyce has a sister, now. Jocelyne took a huge risk in telling him, but, yeah, his face at the end of that strip was one of realization, when he saw the JocelyneJBrown email address.
Actually, I went back and looked at that comic again. After Ethan asked about being able to see some of her writing, Joshua/Jocelyne told Ethan she would text him some links; and then what he got on his phone was “JocelyneJBrown.com” — which is *NOT* an email address. I too thought at first that Joshua was writing under a female nom de plume in much the same way many females have written under an assumed male or androgynous name; it wasn’t until Willis himself made in clear in the comments that we knew beyond a doubt that Jocelyne was transgender but unannounced.
Speak for yourself. I didn’t read the comments the first time through and I picked up on that. (It helped that the hover text said “Joyce’s sister is kinda adorable.” I mean there’s only one way to interpret that)
I’m srry. Because there are some people who get confused or offended I wrote “he” more jokingly. V v V I realize her situation and shouldn’t have been rude like that.
Someone needs to kill him. Right now. Just slit his fucking throat and be DONE with it. “Entitled”?! “ENTITLED”?! Consequences for WHAT?! EXISTING?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
I was expecting this ever since John tried to keep Becky from coming to lunch. Seeing everyone else arrive here is … well, I didn’t expect it to be this painful.
I am never actively wishing violence or physical harm on anybody, but maaaan, if someone wrecked this jerkwad’s fancy car or something, I’d be so super okay with that.
Yeah. This is the Margaret Thatcher thing. Or Scalia. Or numerous others. People who, in life, used their power to actively harm people. I am not gonna be sad that they died. Maybe I have sympathy for their loved ones, but if anyone comes and tells me to ‘respect their legacy’, then….. nahhhhhh thanks, I’m good.
I don’t expect the car to be “free” actually. It’s probably paid from his income which will not be significantly more than that of others. It’s just that when you have that kind of income while living in a country where the average income is a 20th of yours, money tends to accumulate even when living a considerably luxurious style.
The bottom line may be the same but you arrive there with a lot more of, well, entitlement. You feel you deserve that much more than the ones around you since you were born into an exploitative country which you left voluntarily. You just left the money tap running, and when coming back to visit, the house is flooded.
Actually, in the megachurch scene it’s not uncommon for pastors and missionaries to get free luxury items tax free, often with some BS attached about how they totally use it for ministering… and just driving around.
A lot of the time, it’s paid for by little old ladies sending in their life savings to the Church because “that’s what god wants”.
This content made me think of that guy who tried to convince his congregation to put together a few million bucks to buy him a private jet – to use in the ministry, of course – and then blamed ‘Satan’ when they didn’t hit the funding target.
Jesus walked and frequently slept rough.
The Apostle Paul either walked or hitch-hiked his way around the entire Western Empire when he wasn’t on military prison barges.
I wonder if they’re capable of understanding what this says about them as ‘Christians’?
Where is the lightning when it is so clearly called for? Jocelyn’s burn needs to be followed by one from God — the real God, the God who loves and doesn’t put up with bigots and bullshit. The actual God of love; not the one of whatever f’ed up church the Brown’s attend.
I assume it is, since it’s Willis’ sort of thing to know, but it definitely is for higher ups in the mission programs (organizers and up, I mean, rather than random missionaries or the churches who promote missions).
Well clearly if the church gave them that car that means that God wanted them to have it.
But yeah it happens. They don’t often call it skimming, and some are even open about spending money on personal gifts, but mega-churches can make a ton of money and you can’t spend all of that on poor people, can you?
See, I never know how involved other people are in the culture. “Should I bring up Creflo Dollar’s 65 million dollar luxury jet, which was bought to replace another, smaller jet that he felt wasn’t worthy of him? I mean, he’s hardly a *standard* missionary, and everyone’s already heard of that, right?
Distributing a whole bunch of money to five people is a whole lot less work than distributing it to hundreds of thousands of people.
It’s just being efficient. Try getting some developing country project funded for $10000. Close to impossible. Make it $100mill of which most will go to “administrative” costs and spent inside of the organization including a bit of backpay, possibly in the form of campaign funds and other actually legal niceties, and you’re talking.
Plus it still makes its way down to the poor via “trickle down economics,” right? So it’s basically just the same as giving that money to the poor directly, just more efficient. And, like, intuitive and natural and stuff. Yeah.
There’s a long, shameful history of corrupt jackasses using the church as their own personal piggybank, and it’s alive and well (like a cancer) in the modern evangelical churches of America. It’s particularly grotesque and virulent in the ‘prosperity gospel’ variants, which con and coerce poor and desperate people into donating everything they’ve got ‘give till it hurts’ to ‘plant a seed’ that will then guarantee them that god will give them great riches in return. It’s disgusting beyond words.
Less common than people say, more common than a lot of people think. Prosperity Gospel malarky aside, some churches really do like buying expensive junk for their pastors. It’s not overwhelmingly common, but it happens.
Anywhere where huge amounts of money accumulate in one place, corruption tends to follow. That’s doubly so if the people accumulating the money have convinced themselves that they speak for a higher power.
Now I’m curious about the age difference between John and Jocelyne. Also, eee~ Go Joss~ as a starving writer, she knows that the real world is hard. Becky and Joyce know that too. But the real world shouldn’t have a consequence like ‘my dad came to SHOOT ME AND MY FRIENDS BECAUSE I’M GAY’. Like, this guy’s a missionary? THIS guy? Suppose the people of India should know they need to learn the consequences of having a different religion and culture…
Wooow, that’s a lot of years. I’m a little surprised that John roped Joss in with himself then, did he think college changed so much in the 5 years between when Joyce and Joss started college? Then again he probably just took Joss’ silence to mean she agreed and thus HER college years weren’t filled with so much ‘entitlement’.
I think it’s a convenient othering of experience that’s simply convenient to the social narrative that is shared by this social group. The “entitlement culture” of millennials and college students is a massive talking point of the regressive right in the modern day. Simply because this is the way that his culture views those things, right now, today, John is perfectly able to accept it as 100% fact that his lived experience with college was the “correct” and “standard” way the affair was supposed to go, but now that said demographic doesn’t include or agree with him, the narrative is simply “ever since we were done with it, it changed for the worse.” Ignore the fact that John was naturally absent from the specific segments of his college’s population (or, he probably just went to the fundie college to get his tax exemption uniform) that might have disagreed with his opinion, the way he experienced it was the way it was for everybody who came out of it at the same time as him. That, and since Joss came out of her time at Anderson as a “normal” person whereas Joyce has become something abhorrent and terrifying in the eyes of God (see: a baby girl who questions his overarching authority on all matters), so therefore the change in how college works can only possibly occur in the time between Joss leaving and Joyce showing up there. There is simply no other possible way of looking at it, because God is infallible and he made the world exactly this simple, which is what I was taught and is to what I owe all my success in life. The core failure that causes the suffering and complex problems of others can be summarized as “they didn’t believe the same things I did and therefore God intentionally fucked them over.”
There was a bonus comic that had Joyce not-yet-born, Jocelyne trying to express her trans-ness despite being FAR too young to even grock the concept, and John being discussed as if he was already out of school.
No it was John.
Which is why I’m a little surprised that John’s talking about college not being the same when they both went. Jocelyne can’t be that many years out of school.
I’d interpreted John as high school age in that one. Note that he is eating while the rest of the family is talking, so growth spurt in progress, maybe.
Isn’t the point of religious missionaries to completely replace the religion and culture of a foreign people with the “correct” one? You go in under the guise of improving the quality of life and helping people who need it and destroy everything that made them them.
Wow. I wasn’t sure there would be even more ways to utterly loathe the giant douchebag, but there we go.
Blame the lesbian for existing, and belittle being kidnapped and shot at, while going on about how entitled the women are getting, and you’re driving around in a gifted mustang.
Yeah. It’s Joyce and Becky that are “entitled” now. Burn in hell, older Brown sibling. I hope you enjoy Dante’s 6th Circle…I think this sort of action would fall under how Dante described heresy.
9th Circle is Complex Fraud, betrayal of family, but Dante’s version of betrayal was less this sort of action and more murdering them.
Toedad would go straight to 9th Circle. Jackass brown, even if mentality is similar, the action is not as “harsh”, at least to the eyes of someone like Dante.
Given that, by Dante’s schema, people on the inner ring of the 7th Circle include the “violent against nature” (i.e. gays), I imagine Dante would disagree with you there. But I think we can ignore that fact.
John would end up in the 8th Circle’s third bolgia, where dwell those condemned for committing simony and other profiteers of piety. Simon Magus, who trade gold for holy power, ended up there.
In Dante’s time, LGBT would be considered sinners, true. It’s only recently that view has been changed since the spread of Christianity.
However, Dante considered the acts in addition to who they were committed against. Those who kidnapped and killed Boniface VIII Dante stated would go to the inferno, even though Dante considered Boniface as shockingly horrible. Doesn’t matter if Becky is LGBT or not a sinner, Toedad’s actions without repentance would get him sent to Caina as an action against his daughter. If it was towards a non-relative or someone Toedad did not have an obligation to, 7th circle.
My point was more that Dante might very well have considered ToeDad’s acts righteous, rather than worthy of punishment. He wasn’t intending to kill her, after all; he was trying to “save” her in his own warped way. I think Dante would agree that the act and intents were noble.
If you set that aside, yes, ToeDad’s bound for Caina.
Actually, I think Ross would be bound for Caina. Paolo and Francesca were sent to the Lust ring for getting caught in bed together by Francesca’s husband and then getting killed before they could repent. Francesca’s husband, meanwhile, will have been sent lower down for his violent action, which he considered perfectly just and never repented for. Whether to the seventh or the ninth, I don’t remember, and I’m not sure it was mentioned.
Also, there’s the point that all sinners are judged by the ethics of their time; Cleopatra and Dido both appear in the Lust ring despite both being suicides because neither lived in a culture where suicide was a sin, despite that culture being “wrong”.
That’s Toedad’s dominion, definitely. Straight down to Caina.
I think, as awful as Brown #1 is, according to the way Dante categorized hell and sin, he’d be stuck in Circle 6. Heresy, at least in Dante’s time, was viewed as something very differently than today. This was before the Protestant reformation, after all. Placing things ahead of the common good, ahead of how Dante viewed Faith, but most importantly–how it played out.
The way I’m interpreting Dante’s view…all of the fundamentalists of Joyce’s soon-to-be-former church would probably be sent straight to Circle 6 as false Christians, or to the Malebolge of the Simonists in Circle 8, for how they are abusing church funds.
Of course, I am not an expert, I could be completely wrong.
Neither am I, but you certainly seem to be more of one than me. I’ve only read La Commedia once or twice, and it’s been a while. I need to dig them back up soon, now that I think of it.
I still need to find a good copy of Paradiso, the person who translated two of the standard English copies of Inferno and Purgatorio died before finishing the Paradiso translation. Even then, it’s a hard read, just because of how many contemporary figures Dante referenced. 0_O;
If you’re talking about the Dorothy L. Sayers translation, that’s the one I have. Paradiso’s last ten cantos were translated by one of Sayers’s friends and confidants who had access to her notes and had been “consulted” (I don’t know a better word for it) for the other twenty-three cantos of Paradiso. In my last reading, admittedly distant, I barely noticed a difference in quality.
Also, apparently Dante himself may have died before finishing his work, as there is a story where his son only found the last ten cantos (coincidence?) after a dream sent from his father told him where to look. Considering the era, it might have been media hype.
Also, where the hell is entitlement coming into this, even from a warped religious viewpoint? Or does John just thing “being angry” is a privelege reserved for those 30+?
It’s what they call Millennials who would like anything at all, such as a living wage, equality, self-respect, not getting guns pointed at them, you know, ridiculous things like that.
Additionally it’s truly a struggle not to choke condescending older asshats condemning Participation Trophy Entitlement Culture Millennials when they were the ones handing out the fucking participation trophies to their kids and grandkids with smiles on their faces like what did you expect of CHILDREN? TO GIVE THEM BACK TO YOU?
You’re right, why are they bongoing about that “everyone gets a trophy” mindset when THEY were the ones giving out the trophies and raising us like that?
I once read a person making a fair point, that everyone told him to study hard and go to a good college lest he have to flip burgers, and so he did well in college, and when he graduated and doesn’t particularly want to flip burgers they call him entitled.
Like, constantly through childhood, they told him that flipping burgers would be super terrible and/or shameful, it was the great big threat for not doing what they wanted, and that going to college = great job, so it’s his fault for believing them.
(Of course, I always expected to be a starving artist, so poverty wasn’t such a surprise, but you know, different strokes.)
And even if he sucks it up and starts flipping burgers despite that stigma that’s been repeated to him his whole life, he’d best not DARE point out the problems with the minimum wage. To his parents (and grandparents esp), that wage was actually LIVABLE so clearly the problem is with these bratty, entitled whelps. What inflation is?
My favorite part of the hatred for “trophy culture” is the dramatic misunderstanding of it. “Everyone gets a trophy” doesn’t lead to entitlement. It leads to people who don’t trust positive reinforcement or praise and don’t believe that they earned anything because it didn’t matter how mediocre or straight-up terrible you were as a kid, you still got that positive reinforcement, even if you knew you didn’t deserve it! Why would any praise or positive reinforcement be different as an adult? You’re actually worthless and everyone’s too polite to actually tell you that!
He’s entitled to be treated as the Wise sage because he’s older, male, and heterosexual? They’re NOT entitled (and thus Entitled with a capital E) because they’re expecting to have their opinions treated as valid just because they lived through the events.
Like most people of his ilk, words like “entitlement” don’t have actual meanings to him, it’s just a buzzword to describe “people who don’t agree with me”. It’s like “communist” and “fascist” in politics.
“Entitlement” is a phrase like “political correctness”, in the sense that although it does exist in a negative sense it’s more likely used by people in power to dismiss those who don’t have it but want to be treated with some sense of fairness.
People with a sense of privilege who think that because they have it easy everyone who doesn’t is a sponge, whiny or greedy, basically.
For John, Joyce is angry because she believes what hapenned to her and Becky wasn’t deserved, but for him it was a direct consequence of their actions (being gay, running away, helping to hide the runaway). It’s just what happens when you do those things, expecting to act this way and not suffer the natural consequences is Entitlement to him.
Basically, for John college should be like Becky’s, where bekng gay gets you kicked out. But it is like Joyce’s, where you get free pizza. “That’s entitlement”, says the man with the free mustang.
I don’t think that John even knows what the letters stand for. He clearly believes it’s all some trendy nonsense that doesn’t deserve a second thought.
I have heard people say LMNOP, but they meant it with loving good-humour, from within the community, not like what John’s doing here.
Oh, he knows, or at least, he could easily learn. No, he’s not only being hateful, he thinks he’s clever, because he’s rhyming. I’m sure he was smirking while he said it. (Source: Two years of Pre-Seminary courses.)
It’s that little ‘heh’ at the beginning of John’s rant that really makes me detest him. As if Joyce had just been involved in some wacky college prank, and not, you know, a gunman who threatened her life and Becky’s. What a completely garbage human being.
The condescension of that laugh, thinking it was funny that Joyce was so angry royally pissed me off. Then assuming that it was her immaturity that caused the reaction without ever considering what his reaction would be in the same situation. In short, he demonstrated how very little he cares about Joyce. Then he doubled down by rejecting the call for understanding because it was, for him, about the sin. And then doubled down again by assuming that being lesbian is a sense of entitlement and that what happened to Joyce, by supporting Becky, was a logical consequence and therefore deserved.
I’m so very impressed with Willis’s ability to write John’s lines because I couldn’t do so without veering off into farce. That he also set up the punchline for Jocelyn was genius.
Wow John is getting worse and worse every day. I am so angry at his entire existence, I am seething. I don’t even want to think about how he stands for very real, flesh and blood people out there, who think exactly these kinds of things and it just. Ugh. Makes my skin crawl.
Mathew 19:16-24 The highlights (ESV):
16: And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”
20: Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
21: But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
24: Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”
He’ll probably turn the heat onto Jocelyne somehow, for supporting the sinners, hopefully in a way that doesn’t take the wind out of her sails because Sassy Jocelyne is cathartic and amazing and I only want more of her.
Actually what I would really enjoy is one where Jocelyne just keeps burning him and we don’t even get a big John reaction bc who cares what he thinks, it’s just awesome Jocelyne All Day tomorrow til she drops the mic and goes back in to hang with Becky and Joyce. <3
DoA: super cathartic edition.
I believe that he believes himself above “that kind of behavior.” It’s not that he thinks it’s wrong, but he knows how it can be perceived, and has an image to maintain as a member of his community. But, behind closed doors, when he knows he’s truly in an echo chamber? Then, perhaps.
Everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt. John proved beyond a doibt he’s a shitty person 3 comics back. Today’s comic lowered him to “self righteous hypocritical piece of shit” levels.
There will always be people who’ll defend characters like this. There are three reasons:
1) They agree with them
2) They don’t want to accept that people like that exist
3) They’re trolls who just want attention and to see people fight.
Yeah. I just hope I don’t encounter any of these people because boy am I ever NOT in the mood or right frame of mind to deal with them right now. I mean, unless they *want* to get their heads torn off…. ^^
True. I’m honestly a little surprised that we’re not getting an avalanche of “what a strawman, no one acts like this” comments like usually happens when a character reveals themselves to be so awful as to be indefensible.
Not just surprised, but pleasantly surprised, which is nice, because I’ve had way too many encounters with this flavor of asshole to tolerate much of that malarky.
I believe that is because Willis has to approve the first comment anyone makes in the site before they are able to comment more, and it’s very likely that these people would start with “strawman!”
Unfortunately I’ve seen enough of this world to know that there are still asshats who’d defend John. Luckily Willis is a speedy moderator so we don’t see as much of that here.
I was one of the people giving him the benefit of doubt, thinking he didn’t know the story at all, or new only oarts of what happend, or only got a one sided story from his mother. But no, hes just a homophobic, sexist, d-bag
IIRC a lot of people regretted it! Like, they gave him the benefit of the doubt as a human being, and then he crapped all over it, and then they were sad.
Well, benefit of the doubt only applies as long as doubt remains. There was nothing wrong with defending him prior to him doing or saying anything truly awful. Now that he’s unquestionably proven himself to be a dick, no one’s going to defend him.
I think the difference was that people who weren’t used to his style of behaviour —probably because it had never happened to them— kept giving him the benefit quite a bit beyond what the people who could see the red flags coming from a mile away, because they’d lived through those red flags repeatedly.
Me, I chose to believe the ones calling out the red flags. Turns out they were right too.
Personally, I was defending him a couple comics ago not because I didn’t see the red flags, but because I don’t like the idea of red flags. I find the idea of extrapolating a person’s entire personality based solely on initial impressions to be rather judgemental. Honestly, I would never be able to have any social interaction if everyone worked like that, because I’m not the most likeable person up front. Since people have the courtesy of not assuming I’m a total dick based on my antisocial behavior (note: I’m on the autism spectrum) I kinda feel like I have to extend the same courtesy to others. A lot of people can seem a little cold at first or hold one or two shitty beliefs and still turn out to be decent people overall, even if they make a terrible first impression.
Maybe I shouldn’t extend that courtesy to fictional characters, because they work by different rules and also don’t have actual feelings, but I dunno. Fiction is good training for handling situations in real life, so I try not to judge even fictional characters.
Like, this is a great ideal, and one I operated by for a long time, and then it got me into multiple abusive relationships and now I have C-PTSD and seeing people insist that red flags should be ignored in order to be, idk, humane and reasonable and a good person, is scary and shakiness-inducing.
And I say this as an autistic person, too, who often gets pegged as condescending and abrasive. It’s a really hard balance, and I don’t have a good answer. I’m just working so hard to listen to my instincts, which were trained out of me, and to learn that yeah it’s okay to avoid people who make you feel bad just because they make you feel bad.
And then there’s apologism and the superiority of “well IIII don’t judge so quickly” and general comment-section nature (although DOA is amazingly atypical), and it all turns into a giant trigger-ball of “can I ever feel like a person is sketchy without being a Horrible Judger.”
Of course there’s a lot of nuance to consider. I don’t believe any statement can apply to the entirety of human experience. “Don’t judge” is about as true as “lying is bad,” which is to say not always.
To say that you shouldn’t judge prematurely doesn’t mean you should try to be friends with someone who sounds like a jerk. There’s an in-between: you don’t need to assume either the best or the worst of someone, you can just be cautious until it becomes obvious which it is.
Yes, John did turn out to be a jerk, but that only became clear at the point where he got up and left. Prior to that, anything he said could be interpreted as tactless, poorly expressed concern. You shouldn’t assume that’s the case, but I don’t think you should assume he’s being dismissive and condescending right off the bat either. It’s what we call benefit of the doubt: just keep both possibilities in mind until you know for sure.
Ehh, I don’t have a problem with making conclusions based on your experience, as long as you’re not a jerk about it and as long a you’re very open to changing your initial stance given new info. People are judging *machines*, and learning from your experience is important.
Yes, you can, and I absolutely respect that. It’s just not how I proceed. I make no conclusions until I have enough evidence. I’m not saying that method’s superior; we’re talking about social interaction, not science experiments after all.
However, there were a lot of people defending John in previous comics (not so much now), myself included, and also a lot of people who were hating not just on John, but on anyone defending him. That I don’t think is fair.
Really simple? Most of them were saying “We shouldn’t ASSUME he’s an asshole. Let’s give the character a chance to prove if he is, or not.” And now, he has.
There’s really no hypocrisy in “Let’s at least see if it plays out like that. Well. Yep, it sure did.”
Willis left plenty of the room at the beginning for him to turn out to be misinformed, misunderstanding, misunderstood, or in some other fringe case not acting purely out of malice and dogma. I also don’t think there was enough evidence very early on that he was, in fact, unchangeable. But, the rate at which Willis is trying to torpedo any potential goodwill for John, I wouldn’t be surprised at any reveal of his wrongdoings at this point if they make sense in the context of the character. He’s clearly meant to have essentially zero redeeming qualities.
I still wouldn’t be at all surprised if the earlier speculation about Christi being Indian and that being a source of friction with his parents was true. It would be interesting if he was better on racial issues than at them, while still being horrible in many ways.
Good lord, it’s like reading things my father has said but with religious fervor.
Also Jocelyne just got a new reason as to why she’s my longtime fave: she is a MASTER of burns
(And yeah, John, real life is hard. For example, some people get stuck with really shitty older brothers who completely dismiss the horrifying experience they went through because “real life has consequences” or some gross sanctimonious bullshit.)
Anything I may have ever said nice about John — I take it all back.
And Jocelyne earns ten points for Gryffindor for recognizing hypocrisy when it’s staring her in the face
Even if you buy into everything he believes, even if you buy every possible excuse of working with partial information, trying to be pragmatic, whatever, he STILL got pissy with his little sister (a week after an incredibly traumatic experience) as soon as their conversation left the safest topics possible (running gags about Joyce’s eating habits), he STILL was incredibly dismissive about Becky (the friend-to-the-family-who-just-lost-her-parents-and-is-homeless), he contributed with nothing helpful at all and he ran away as soon as Joyce raised her voice.
Go John, truly you are a stellar shepherd for the troubled and lost.
Honestly, I really love how you follow up his “entitlement” comment with the fact that he has a fucking Mustang bought with Church tithings, Willis. That’s honestly the last few previous generations in a nutshell.
Go read about the 3C church and other prosperity denominations. They preach the “prosperity gospel” (antithesis of what Jesus taught) and their pastors make boatloads of money. I’ll bet John is one of those men who will always ask for the pastor discount at shops, restaurants and garage sales.
The Prosperity Gospel is actually more offensive to me than Ayn Rand’s teachings as a theistic follower of Rabbi Joshua ben Joseph (which I say just to screw with my fundamentalist neighbors I admit). I mean, there’s genuine evil in the name o God all the time, but that’s just so…self servingly SMUG.
At least when it comes to Ayn Rand, she’s only economically reprehensible. Socially, she’s… Pretty good, really. Rationalist and libertarian on social issues, through and through.
I’m hardly in agreement with her either, but if you believe in things like freedom of speech and conscience and the simple right to be different without fear of state-sanctioned persecution, you’ve gotta give credit where it’s due.
Not really racist, but culturally supremacist to the extreme, to where it’s virtually indistinguishable. She believed they didn’t have property rights because they didn’t “use” the land, and thus this justified white Europeans in extirpating the Natives from their homes by whatever means they saw fit.
Did she believe that Natives were in any way inherently inferior, though? Not that I’ve ever heard. As she put it herself, “Racism is a doctrine of, by and for brutes.”
Rand did more than say she wasn’t racist, though; she dedicated a fairly reasonable amount of her writing on ethics and virtue to how and why racism was irrational and wrong. The Virtue of Selfishness has an entire chapter dedicated to tearing at the concept philosophically. Racism, in her eyes, denigrates humanity to a kind of biological determinism. You are a genius or an idiot on your own terms – and, really, those were the only things she cared about – regardless of your origin.
The problem is, Rand loved the idea of “progress”, and anyone who didn’t get with the program was backwards and stupid; a standard to which she held everyone. It just becomes most glaring and cruel when directed at minorities and peoples whose histories have been marked by oppression and cultural ruin. “Yes, this is the society that oppressed you and murdered your ancestors, but it’s got trains and planes and automobiles, so if you don’t get with the program, you’re just stupid.”
Empathy wasn’t her strong suit, but I’m betting you knew that already.
Rand blamed numerous problems that women suffered on, you know, women. Saying she was ‘good socially’ pretends that libertarians, as a rule, are ‘good socially’. No, they’re just the ones who get defined as libertarians by libertarians who at least claim to be good socially. She considered Libertarians to be hippies (Much like how Marx never once identified with Marxism), so calling her one ‘through and through’ is laughable in the extreme.
And you’re saying she said racist shit, so I don’t know why you’re wasting your time trying further. Like, you won’t identify it as such, but you’re saying she said racist shit, so. People who WERE geniuses among natives were roundly ignored, and white geniuses were glorified.
The only thing that gets my hackles up more is people who use their kids for proselytizing. If the young’uns want to participate in church/synagogue/whatever stuff, sure, but when you tell them it’s their duty and hang back because emotional blackmail of strangers is more important than your kid’s well-being…
Reminds me of John Oliver’s bit on it, which resulted in him setting up the fake church “Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption.” (Unlike the prosperity gospel churches, though, he actually used his money for a good cause- in this case, donating it to Doctors Without Borders.)
If only there was someone else with a car there.
Someone who’s also a family.
Someone who’s not a complete bag of dicks.
Someone who she can feel relatively safe with.
Someone she desperately wants to support.
Now it’s been a long time since I gave an offering at church, but I thought it was supposed to be FOR the poor, not FROM them. Of course, if you’re going to skim off the top for fancy cars, I suppose it doesn’t matter who’s giving.
Yes, they do. But that’s not all of it. Some churches also tell people who can’t really afford it that they have to tithe. There are some churches that require you to give them your W2s and everything to even be a member.!
Plus, John is a missionary to India, which has a lot of poor people.
But thanks for catching that. I instinctively read it as “for.” Now the burn is on much, much stronger ground. (As tithes aren’t always for poor people.)
John: Listen, Josh, I’m ENTITLED to this because I don’t think I’m entitled to this. It was GIFTED to me by the church out of the goodness of their hearts which I KNEW about but didn’t EXPECT. That’s the difference. They, however, PRESUME I will be sympathetic and understanding which just will not stand.
Wow John I thought you couldn’t be more of an Asshole….I was wrooooooiiiing.
I am so glad that Jocelyne is calling him out on his bullshit. Its especially brave considering her own situation.
Amazing. John had already proven himself to be trash, and then he went and somehow managed to make me think even worse of hi,. And I hadn’t considered that possible before now.
Someone should remind John of Proverbs 16:18 (King James Version (KJV)) “Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.” His fall will be a wonder to behold.
oh ick. John is sounding kinda scumbaggy, aside from policing Joyce’s tone and not being emotionally supportive. what did he even want to accomplish during the lunch, if he wasn’t going to be there for Joyce?
Damn but that was good Jocelyne. Also, seriously, a damn Mustang?!? Is John’s church one of those Joel Olsteen style mega-churches or something, cause that level of corruption is pretty hard to hide otherwise.
To be fair, it’s very possible he works for the Willisverse of the 700 club where massive numbers of donations are sent to the Church’s missionary efforts where much falls off for plane fuel and otherwise.
Best prank ever: the Mustang is Ultra-Car in disguise, and she drops John off in the Amazon. Let’s see you spread the word of God to the jaguars and the venomous snakes.
I am so disappointed that, as the comic is generally grounded in these types of issues (plus Joyce being semi-autobiographical and Willis’s mom still being like this), it is highly unlikely characters like John and Carol will ever see the errors of their ways. DX
Now I’m picturing Joyce, Jocelyn, and Jordan’s family having thanksgiving in the future and one of the kids complaining that they invited Mean, Crazy, Uncle John.
Oh she will escape. I have no doubt about that. Hell, she’s already in the midst of grabbing what she can and building what she can before the inevitable skedaddle.
It’s not a matter of if, but rather when. And given that she’s hit her limit here. The when might be very very soon. Especially if she sees it as a way to protect her little sister from the rest of the family.
So after all this, let’s see how many people will still be up to defending John tonight, after this final display of his grotesque hypocrisy and contempt. He couldn’t even say ‘LGBTQ’ without intentionally changing it, to show his contempt for the very notion. “Her friend is swept up in some trendy whatever,” his utter disdain for Becky, the clear fact that he didn’t spend even a second, then or now, thinking about the fact that his sister was held at gunpoint by a man prepared to murder her in order to abduct his child so she could be tortured into compliance. All of that was just “whatever,” because he won’t, he *can’t*, countenance the possibility that they could have seriously gone through anything worthy of his consideration, understanding, or care. And the little thought he *did* spend on it led him to the conclusion, apparently, that she “should have thought of that before,” before coming out, before ‘deciding’ to be gay, before defying her father, before whatever hateful shit he was about to say.
This is the kind of man John is. I’m really waiting to hear what the defense of him will be, now. Or will it just be the fallback of “this is so unrealistic, Willis is just strawmanning christians, which he so *obviously* hates, nobody is ever like this for real.”
I’m sorry for being so bitter, here, but, seriously – people like me; gay folks, trans folks; have been in these comments sections night after night trying to explain that people like John are real, that they exist, and that they’ve made our lives a living hell even within our own families. That even now, people like John are trying to make it illegal just to *be* a trans person out in public, to even have a public life, by trying to deny us the simple ability to go to the frikkin’ restroom – but it’s like arguing with a brick wall, and even here, being shown a callous, patriarchial egotist like John, people have *lined up* to defend him, to construct arguments and alternate scenarios where he has a point, where he’s not wrong, where if only people would stop being so gosh darn emotional and listen. Even last night, people were explaining that he “had a point,” that he was just being misunderstood. Like, *now* do you see why that is and was always absolutely bogus?
I grew up surrounded by fundamentalists and most of them would have at least wanted to shoot (and kill) Ross for hurting their daughter. They also would have actually loathed him for trying to kidnap his daughter too at gunpoint to.
And that’s a legit thing. You experienced that.
Trigger warning for mention of sexual abuse and incest as well as mention of corrective rape as a “joke”
But they’re are so many of us who heard how we should die. How we’re sinners, damning ourselves. My southern Baptist family would have similar feelings to John here and my own feelings would be ignored. Once, corrective rape was joked about in front of me at a reunion for lesbians and those “fad following” bisexuals. In front of me. My dad was there, who had been suspicious abusing me since I was 6. His mother said this, after just that day telling me that the most important thing I could do as a woman was keep my flower until marriage. She made a corrective rape joke about lesbian and bisexual people. My dad, her son, my rapist, the person who “stole” my “flower” and made me feel filthy most of my life? He laughed.
So while I believe that the fundamentalists around you might not be this level of wilful ignorance and violent disregard for actually caring about people, and that’s great! It feels a bit like you’re trying to do exactly like the commenter above you said, calling out this as strawman arguments, as if real lived experience others have doesn’t matter because you know some who aren’t like that. If you didn’t mean it like not all fundies,sorry, I guys I misunderstood.
I’m actually attempting to draw attention to the sheer level of insensitivity and douchebaggery which is on display here. Hatespeech is hatespeech and there’s no buttering it up. However, plenty of fundamentalist do go the Joyce route and don’t act on their darker impulses and thankfully reject that portion of their view. The fact the Browns do not in the face of deliberate provocation to the contrary which would work on many-many members of similar sects is something I’m underscoring as even worse. I’m also in no way suggesting Dumbing of Age’s depiction is unrealistic. It’s dramatized but I have no doubt the Rosses can and do exist in commentator’s own lives let alone in reality as a whole.
Or, to summarize, “Fundamentalists tend to be homophobic. The sheer level of homophobia and hate on display here goes beyond that and shows it is something beyond even their religious beliefs justifying it. It is double-plus ungood and the worst of what is already a streak of religious thought I strongly disdain.”
Gotcha. I wasn’t sure which direction you were going with it, but your explanation made it more clear thank you. And I agree. While Ross and John are not the only Christians, so often people let them get away with things while being silent, I’m just glad there are people like Joyce within that can say who’s hold up this is awful, stop! Even if it doesn’t work. Idk I dredged up more hurt than I thought I would and I can’t articulate well and I have typos, probably but my screen is small and I can’t see.
No one’s blaming you for the pain. One thing Willis deserves amazing credit for is the honesty of his web comic and I believe it’s really helping make the world a better place, even if in just a small way of showing it like it is.
A certain kind of person existing isn’t proof that another kind of person doesn’t. Yeah there are plenty of people who’d be flipping out or at least acting like Joyce’s dad, but there’s also plenty of people who’d behave like John or Joyce’s mom, I know those people. Hell I even know people who would think Ross would have been in the right to disown or murder Becky.
You don’t have to apologize for sounding ‘bitter’. It’s because their words are bitter and terrible and you’ve had to swallow a lot of it. I imagine Willis will be moderating like hell tonight.
Privileged people don’t want to believe that evil exists (because, wouldn’t it be nice if it didn’t? That would be great!) whereas marginalized people know for damn certain, over and over, that it does. Some people really are this terrible. A lot of them. A lot of them have serious political power, too.
Don’t like it? Well, this is where a call to action goes, but I’m not sure exactly what we can do about it (other than voting, and not being assholes ourselves). Thoughts for real world action?
I feel like this comic is often an education for people who haven’t had lives of awful surrounded by truly abominable people.
Like, if I didn’t grow up surrounded by fundie culture, I wonder if it wouldn’t all seem alien and unreal to me. Like, what? No, no one could be that small-mindedly self-destructive and awful, right?
I mean if you have access to the internet it really shouldn’t surprise you. Like everyone I know is totally down with the LGBTQ or knows well enough to keep it to themselves if they’re not but I know plenty of people for whom that’s not the case because I make an active effort to encounter perspectives different from mine. It’s just a matter of trusting someone else to know their experiences better than you do instead of taking the ridiculously egotistical stance of “Well, that’s not what I experienced therefore it can’t be true.”
I didn’t grow up with Fundie culture, and I didn’t find it hard to believe that this goes on when I started reading. Then again the comic slowly introduces it so you become more receptive to believing it exists as opposed to starting with John.
Effectively, those not surrounded by Fundie culture can believe it more easily thanks to escalation.
I didn’t grow up with bigots, but I did grow up with the idea that the world is vast and full of wonders and terrors, so many many people who believe/do such varied things. So, if somebody says they meet a person who behaves a certain way, I tend to believe them!
I think the fact that all his characters are so rooted in reality, believable, and understandable, even the ones that are consistently vile, is a real testament to the writing skill at play here. If people are willing to open themselves to what’s outside their experience, it is very quick and very clear to see that all of these characters are very, very human, and their actions tend to be drawn logically from concrete internal reasoning that is supported by their own written or implied experiences.
I really hope John’s car gets totaled in this chapter. Or like, he crashes into a religious billboard encouraging people to be kind and understanding. “God, I need help dealing with my sister and her heathen friend, please send me a sign!” How about STOP, buddy?
It’s never right to harm another person, with very few defined exceptions. But, I would gladly lower myself to a level far below what the world deserves of me to wreak vengeance upon some of these characters. I could live with being morally incorrect over it.
Why did the church give him a brand new car? I feel like if there is a “sin” around here it is something John has done like blackmail or skimming the top of the offerings given on Sunday. I just don’t get it. Joss is still neutral, which makes sense. Joyce is being treated like she is insane by her family, which makes no sense. Becky is happy go lucky but I think that is only because Joyce is there defending her. She feels loved, and protected in a vulnerable time.
It is clear that Joss is ok with the lesbianism. What is not clear is her full stand. I want to say she is open minded, and understanding since she is transgender. Possibly feels jealous of Becky for having the confidence to stand up for who she is.
I have yet to find a redeemable quality from Josh. I feel like he is one of those christians like the Duggars. They use it to defend their own hatred and use it to extort money from poor people.
You’re probably not familiar with the fact missionary work is often tied to the “televagenglist” phenomenon in some areas. Also, bluntly, ministers giving themselves expansive paychecks and lifestyles is nothing new. Skimming from the plate is a time honored pasttime dating back to Babylon.
Becky is not happy-go-lucky. Becky -acts- happy-go-lucky, but that’s her way to cope, to survive. It’s her shield against the world.
And yes, it will bite her in the ass, and yes, what she needs to learn is to let her guard down and let her sadness show… Hopefully that day will come sooner rather than later. Best case scenario is that she’ll cry and vent for an entire day with people she can let down her guard with.
I presume you meant to type “John” in your last paragraph. Other than that, you’re pretty spot on on what type of Christian he is.
I suspect it’s a bit more complicated than that. She’s upset about a lot of things but I suspect her happiness is genuine as she has shed a terrible weight off her shoulders.
Back in college, she might have had some relatively happy last couple of days, especially with Dina. And Hank hugging her and still treating her as family with just a touch of awkwardness was also nice.
Although the fact that she felt safe enough in the car trip to fall asleep was probably the best indicator that things weren’t looking so bad… at this particular point.
And then she meets Carol, and pretty much every joke after that is a shield joke.
Yakno.. you should have been supportive like that IN FRONT of those two. ITs good to try and help behind the scenes but you’ve effectively done nothing for them in the end
Jocelyn isn’t perfect, and she was probably really scared of directly getting in the middle of that fight. It’s much easier (especially for someone in the closet) to confront one person than to take sides in a volatile fight between two other people.
Besides, they haven’t left the parking lot yet. Personally I’m hoping Jocelyn gets a ride home from Joyce instead.
In addition to what Greatveiledbear said, notice she didn’t actually go for the “you need to stop being a bigoted asshole” front. Instead, she went the “you were harsh and are kind of a shitty Christian” route. She’s still understandably afraid to directly support a fellow LGBT person, because that could lead to accidentally outing her.
Waiting til they got out to the car allowed her to slightly shift the subject.
I went though an entirely long-winded and, admittedly, excessively caustic in tone explanation above explaining why this is a tremendously unfair expectation of behavior from Joss. In short, we don’t know what her plans are for her life, both her and Joyce and even their shithead family have a lot to lose, and pushing even slightly too hard against this kind of thing can unleash a maelstrom of awful consequences that are morally despicable, but completely unavoidable. Joss and Joyce both are in a situation where they are actually under danger of egregious harm, bodily or otherwise, and holding Joss up to some kind of moral imperative to accept those consequences immediately and without any modicum of fully stable independence and control of her life is, at best, unrealistic for her character.
Jocelyne is a she. If you’re confused why that is, I’d be happy to explain, but I don’t want to patronize you as it may’ve been a typo or other mistake.
I bet she feels bad that she didn’t speak up for them in the restaurant. I mean, what happened is hardly her fault, but she’s trying to do what she didn’t do in the moment.
My apologies as it was a typo. Joss (is that even appropriate for Jocelyn?) didn’t stick up for Becky and Jocye during all this but gave silent consent to all of John’s attacks. With very good reason and out of fear but enough to give reason for her to feel guilty.
Willis himself used “Joss” in the alt-text of a comic a couple days ago, so I’d say it’s fine.
Now, ‘Jocelyn’ isn’t. There’s an e at the end of Jocelyne’s name.
I feel the content of this comment thread is a good detail to point out and I’m sad that a lot of people will miss it. I didn’t fully register it myself and it’s a very telling clue about how we are to best understand Joss’ inner turmoil.
I think it may well be Josie (I think this is a better nickname for Jocelyn) is so used to being the “perfect son” to hide their true identity they never have been put in a situation where they have to stand up for someone else suffering from a similar situation. It’s probably a new and terrifying experience to be face with an uncloseted person on the spectrum who is facing all the things she was afraid of facing. With, well, good reason given Ross’ gun.
I also like that you used the “they” pronoun. After all, we don’t really have any details about how they identify, which I hadn’t really thought about.
Yeah, I mean, I think that’s the general consensus, and from Willis’ extra-canonical commentary (I can’t cite anything specific but just like general tumblr/twitter stuff), it seems like that was the intention.
No, Joss is definitely a trans woman with she/her pronouns. Like you, I don’t have a link to Willis’ comment, but that’s the score. Also Joss is fine, it’s what a lot of people have been rolling with and it seems to be an appropriate short version.
I mean, Willis has stated (both in the comments and on tumblr) that Jocelyne identifies as female, but I guess you’re right in that she hasn’t actually done so herself in-comic. But outside of it, it’s pretty unambiguous.
Willis called Jocelyne “Joss” in an alt text recently, so it’s probably fine. I do agree that “Josie” is cuter, though. But please don’t call her “they”; degendering a trans person whose pronouns have been explicitly stated is rude.
Given that Willis is literally the god of this comic, I think it’s pretty safe to take his out-of-universe comments as canon. He’s consistently called her she/her.
jocelyne’s a girl who uses she/her pronouns, so using they/them pronouns is misgendering. willis refers to her using she/her pronouns, so there’s really not much reason to use any other pronouns for her. as far as i know, there aren’t any characters in the comic who currently use they/them pronouns.
@charles – jocelyne is always a woman, no matter how she’s presenting at that moment. she’s just in the closet. i’m sure you meant well but please don’t refer to trans women as men (or trans men as women). :c
Discussed at some length in comments literally yesterday and before, but yes: feminine pronouns. She’s not out to anyone but Ethan in-strip, and not directly even to him, so there’s been no opportunity to see her using them herself, but Willis has been consistent from the beginning.
Am I? I didn’t realize I was. I think it’s probably an error by the fact I was thinking of Josie’s persona and referencing the disguise by accident when writing.
Sorry about that, didn’t mean to use wrong terminology and want to be very clear in my usage because the language here is deeply personal and I don’t want to hurt anyone.
It takes practice, sometimes. Good luck. My recommendation whether with fictional characters or real people is just take a little time and try saying it out loud a bit and get used to really hearing the pronoun and making the connection. Helps a lot and it’s good training for when a person in your life comes out as trans and you need to get their pronouns right.
Please don’t unilaterally change her name. She does not go by Josie, she has only ever been shown to use Jocelyne in comic, and Willis has used Joss. Neither has ever used Josie. (Which is properly short for Josephine, or a name in its own right – it’s not impossible that a Jocelyne could use it, but it’s neither common nor specifically used by this Jocelyne.)
Joc/Joss (same pronunciation, 2 different spellings) is the common short form of Jocelyne, there is nothing inappropriate about it.
I had a feeling he wasn’t upset over Joyce’s angry outburst but rather annoyed that someone he sees as inferior to him dare talking down to him. Joyce is the youngest sibling and a girl so how dare she question her elder.
I do hope we meet her other brother, Jordon, in this chapter.
This Dick is either missing the point or is avoiding it entirely because his arrogant condescending ass. His little sister and her bestfriend have a encounterthat results in nearly having the heads blown off and he decids not to care about it because the last thing he wants to do is sympathize with Becky? Fuck off this guy is more of a self-righteous condescending dick head then Jason.
And as for that last panel, really John taking money from the church? That just goes back to the question ” will a man rob God ?” Well apparently yeah some people would which reminds me of this:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml8bQDnnkKk
Real life is hard? Says someone who’s never had a gun pointed at his face. Someone who’s never been drugged as the precursor to being raped. Gah, Willis, you invented this guy to put these hateable thoughts out in the storyline and I know that… BUT I HATE HIM SO MUCH.
GAH I can’t get over how angry this massive dickface makes me. ‘sin’ and ‘entitlement’ and all these fucking words that lgbtq+ kids hear alllll the time to invalidate their identities and belittle them and fuccccckkkkk this shit.
I can only ever say thanks to the universe that my family and my friends were not like this and I’ve had a relatively easy time being a queer kid, teenager and adult (tbh adult is the hardest one, thanks to my mental health issues that had nothing to do w/ my sexuality). Goddamn. Bless you, family. I’m not even all that close to my family and we’ve def had some MAJOR issues and I didn’t have a peachy childhood, but they never gave me shit about this.
Hearing from so many of my friends how fucking brutal it can be and how horrific their families or so-called friends reacted they came out, I can only say I’m grateful. It’s so rough. My heart bleeds for everyone who had to go through this :3
same. i’ve had it easy compared to other queer folks. i mean, for a while i didn’t know bisexuality was a thing, but i don’t think i ever felt self hatred or shame for my attraction to anyone.
admittedly, realizing i’m trans hasn’t been as easy, and my mom shut me down and invalidated me when i tried to come out to her, and i’m still plagued with self doubts about that, but i haven’t been kicked out or assaulted.
it’s my relatively easy journey that makes me so outspoken. i want to make things better for people who’ve had it worse than me.
[Me, a cis person, reading]
“i’ve had it easy compared to other queer folks (…) shut me down and invalidated (…) haven’t been kicked out or assaulted”
*weak voice* “well… congratulations for your relatively easy journey. I suppose I’ll just solider on in a society that confirms and celebrates my gender identity at every turn…. um… high five?”
No, seriously. Thanks for speaking out and thanks for making things better.
same. i’ve had a relatively easy time as a bi/gay/whatever person and even as a trans person – never been assaulted or kicked out, and not had self hatred driven into me every single day. that’s why i’m so passionate about speaking out for the people who’ve had it shittier than me.
I fucking HATE that that is our standard of “relatively easy”. I mean, I know it is, and I’m also on the “relatively easy” end of the spectrum of how I’ve been treated as a trans person, but it’s just so fucked up that I’m like “oh hey, one of my parents is only *emotionally* abusive, but I’ve got it good compared to most trans people”.
Honestly, how easy it’s been for me when it comes to my family makes me all the more enraged on the part of people it’s not easy for because I can see how simple it is to just be supportive of your alleged loved ones.
Uggggggh I am getting so goddamn angry. I want Jocelyne to take him down about twelve pegs, but I can understand why she would feel unsafe to do so. Her last-panel jab is nice, though. I’m sort of hoping she’ll turn around and go back to Joyce and Becky and they can have a nice lunch together.
Thank you so much for understanding how unsafe a situation this is for the girls. So many people are so desperate for the call to action to be answered immediately that they have lost sight of just how serious the options they want the characters to take actually are.
Oh, this guy. Not only is he a Smug Christian Asshole, he’s a Bootstrap SCA. It’s bad enough when the Osteens and Jakes of the world pull this shit, but he’s a missionary. If anyone ought to understand social injustice…but no, he EARNED his, right? And he thinks he’s saving people, when he is, as the quote goes, the single greatest cause of atheism in the world today.
John thinks that the consequences of choosing to get swept up in this gay fad (because it’s a trendy thing to do rather than an actual sexual identity amirite??) is having your father kidnap you at gunpoint.
It’s fucking scary how he’s wording this: it’s as if Becky had chosen to illegally download a movie off the internet and then she had gotten a fine for getting caught. Gives us an insight in how John thinks being gay works and damn that’s not okay by a long shot.
Well, guess I should write part 2 of the story I started yesterday, for the one you that actually gives a fuck (the one is me), However I will go back to the script format, as I’ve realized the novel format might be annoying to read on here. HELP ME DECIDE!
Jocelyne: He was trying to protect you!
Old Lady: From who!?
Jocelyne: From him…
a black cloud flew into the room and begin to take the shape of an old man, with a cane and hunched back.
Old Man Johnson: This house will be mine Edith!
Jocelyne: Though that’s her name (she thought)
Edith: You never got this house when you were alive, and you won’t get it now!
Jocelyne jumped to the side and pulled out a small bag of salt. She quickly undid the knot and tossed it.
Johnson: Salt eh, your going to have to do better then that!
Jocelyne: I can, Magic bullet motherfucker!
Jocelyne grabbed her gun and fired a shot at the ghost. He quickly dodged.
Jocelyne: Wait a sec…you shouldn’t be able to move that fast.
Johnson: Look at what the powers of hell can do for you! It was easy to escape, I’ll I had to do was find someone else to take my place in the pit.
Jocelyne: And you chose…
Johnson: Exactly, the old bongoes husband!
Edith: oh my God
Jocelyne: wait…if I open a portal to hell. I do have some runes in my pocket
Jocelyn grabbed a few tiles from her pocket, and tossed them on the floor.
Jocelyne: Demons of the gate, I command you open the doors to oblivion!
A small portal begin to form
Johnson: What are you doing?!
Jocelyne: Sending you back, and hopefully giving the old lady’s husband a way back at the same time.
The portal begin to suck like a cyclone.
Johnson: No! Not when my revenge is so close! I will be…
A hand reached out of the hole and grabbed him by the ankle.
Johnson: Not like this, not like this.
He screamed as he was ripped through the hole, as it closed behind him.
Jocelyne: Phew
Edith: Oh God, that was my husbands hand!
Jocelyne: Theres still hope…I just happen to have one rune left.
Jocelyne winks.
Jocelyne: I’ll send you a bill. See ya around.
Jocelyne walked of again. Wondering where she’d go next.
Ugh, I’m a christian, but this kind of bullshit is why I’m not all that strict about religion.
Plus, my old church had a leaderboard for those that donated the most.
Yeah, it definitely made me disgruntled enough to leave.
Personally I just think people should be good to other people and that god will forgive the rest. Plus, if the more strict Christians I know are correct, it wouldn’t be a heaven without my friends that are ‘deceitful sinners’, they’re the most entertaining people and I love them to absolute bits.
I kinda started looking askance when I got to “Leaderboard”. Unless it’s a scoreboard of how many people you forgave this week, or something, that’s just weird. “The last shall be first, and the first shall be last” was _not_ about racing!
The score board was basically the top 5 people to give the most money that week.
It was stupid and I’m never going back to that bullshit place. I’m perfectly fine being a Christian in my own home.
The Kingdom of Heaven was never about the afterlife. Judaism had no real such concept; the world you live in is the important one. The Olam Baha is here, and its time comes when all the world’s people are capable of entering it; utopia not as a place but as a people.
The laws in the Scriptures are not passcodes by which one enters some supernal eternity; they are guidelines on how to live a good and righteous life. The excoriations by prophets are reminders that you will never have a good world until you remember the basic rules: Give to the needy, care for your poor and vulnerable, and live selflessly for others. Since people refuse this obligation, the world shall always have suffering.
Christ carried on this tradition: Reminding people that until they give up the other things which they allow to rule their lives – lust for wealth, flesh, decadence, fame, even piety – they will not find peace; that salvation is first and foremost in this life; that the promise of liberation from sin is the promise that you can be a better person.
All else is noise. There is no other guidance on how to live your life in those words. It is only when you start getting to Paul that you start seeing increasing mysticism enter the texts. Personally, before I left the faith, I got the feeling that Paul hewed close to the definition of a false prophet.
That’s my take on it. I am… A dabbler in theology. But not much more than that.
I like your point of view.
I’ve read the bible (thank my dad for that he said that if I was going to be a Christian I’d read the book, which apparently so many don’t do.) I didn’t really analyze it beyond enjoying the stories and taking the ‘do good and be kind’.
I find myself agreeing with you.
I’m always glad to have a non-trolly conversation about such topics.
Eeeeeeeeh, it’s a bit more complicated than that as resurrection is a thing into a paradiscal physical world. The concept of Heaven was also a thing which even Judaism had differing interpretations on before the New Testament where it was pretty much already firmly established.
It certainly is more complicated than that, but I can hardly throw it all out there at once. Judaism has a number of traditions – many still alive today – about the nature of death, including a kind of eternal union with divinity or cycles of reincarnation, but the most common strain of thought you will find in the Torah seems to be of a covenant between humanity and God that provides blessings in the here and now. The hereafter is not much discussed and, when it is, seems to largely focus on the resurrection of the dead.
Just the same, Paradise in Jewish thought was never really another world; it was this world, but free of sin and toil. Eden, the Land of Milk and Honey, all that lovely stuff. Again, other strains exist, but we can’t discuss them all or we’d be here all night.
But the refrain of the prophets is always the same regardless: What matters is here, now. Do good, not because it gets you some great real estate after death but because it’s the best thing for you and everyone else right here and right now.
I actually know a preachers son who was “gifted” a Mac Laptop after he ruined his old one by accidentally pouring Coca Cola on it… From the congregation of course…
Seconded! “Rocks fall, everyone dies… except for Joyce, Jocelyne, and their father. Their father is wounded by the rocks, falls into a coma for two years, but when he comes out of it he sees the error of his former ways and they all flip the church a huge, collective, blue-eyed bird as they rock off into the sunset. And live happily ever after.”
I’d like to suggest Josie as the new nickname for Jocelyn as it works better than Joss, I think. On a related note, I think Josie is in a position which is kind of their own ironic hell. They’ve been Ethaning it for DECADES versus Ethan’s brief experiment for a month or so at being straight to get social acceptance. Josie now is witnessing someone who uncloseted themselves she’s giving silent consent to the persecution of–which is probably a scenario they never expected to encounter. It’s not just him that’s suffering from her refusing to come out.
Re: “I’d like to suggest Josie as the new nickname for Jocelyn as it works better than Joss, I think.”
Like Marie said, Willis used Joss, so it’s presumably canon. And, to be honest, I can see why Jocelyn would prefer “Joss” over “Josie,” at least right now? I mean, she can’t come out to her family, now or probably ever, but “Joss” sounds close enough to “Josh” that it’s not so jarring to hear when they call her that? I could be way off base, though…
Plus “Joss” flows from the pronunciation* of “Jocelyne” (JOSS-lin or JOSS-uh-lin) in a way that “Josie” just doesn’t, for me. As noted above, although Jocelyne hasn’t used the short name herself in-strip, Willis used it in the alt text for April 2 so I presume that’s the one she would prefer (i.e. it’s not just a fan nickname for her).
Please don’t unilaterally change her name. She does not go by Josie, she has only ever been shown to use Jocelyne in comic, and Willis has used Joss. Neither has ever used Josie. (Which is properly short for Josephine, or a name in its own right – it’s not impossible that a Jocelyne could use it, but it’s neither common nor specifically used by this Jocelyne.)
Joc/Joss (same pronunciation, 2 different spellings) is the common short form of Jocelyne, there is nothing inappropriate about it.
Congratulations John. You just went from “dick” to “complete biased asshole”. At this point Joyce may be better off telling her entire family to jump in a lake and just leaving.
Panel 1: Yeah, sure, let’s just add some ageism into the mix, why not? Brother of the year here, everyone!
Panel 2: Jocelyne digs deep to try and find the strength to take the biggest risk of her life.
Panel 3: AIEEE, Willis is a future mind-reader! Also, so many fist bumps to Jocelyne for saying what needed to be said and highlighting once again the whole “traumatic experience” “nearly being killed thing”. It won’t work, because if John was ok with dismissing Joyce herself saying that she was nearly murdered, Jocelyne saying it isn’t going to do jack squiddly either.
Panel 4: Oh, John, you irredeemable fuck. Like, he’s just the embodiment of every asshole overprivileged conservative douchebag online. Right down to whining that the Millennials are from an “entitlement” culture because they feel “entitled” to not be hunted down and murdered for what they are.
And yeah, we already know he sees Becky as just a walking sin rather than a real person, but it doesn’t make him any less punchable when he calls the thing that lost her her home and her family her “sin”. Cause, of course, Toedad nearly killing his sister would never be considered the same level of “sin”.
Panel 5: I’m… there’s just so much concentrated FUDGE YOU, JOHN, I don’t know where to begin. The dismissive asshole method of shitting on the queer alphabet soup. Acting like being queer is trendy because people have died and bled to make society a place where fewer queer kids axe themselves before adulthood or hide themselves in a closet for life. The extra little bullshittery that is applying that worldview to Becky and how much she has lost because of her identity, but now, she just chose to be a sinner, because it’s so trendy.
It’s extra annoying, because I dated a bisexual for nearly a decade and there were so many assholes who played that “oh, you’re just doing that because it’s trendy” line on her and it never failed to piss me off.
There’s the “back in my day” whining that should be shot out of a cannon into the sun. And the “entitlement” shit.
Oh, we’ll get to that little shitstorm shortly, but in the meantime, just FUDGE YOU, JOHN on every conceivable level.
Panel 6: Oh, Jocelyne, are you trying to win favorite character spot back from Carla… cause you’re making a very good case, right now.
Also, of course he’s embezzling from the Church for his own benefit. Cause it was clear someone was going to be given what happened at Willis’s old church and what frequently happens at this big Megachurches. And he has the gall to claim his younger siblings are the “entitled” ones.
And oh man, Jocelyne taking that big risk, saying the first thing she can’t take back because she can’t take it anymore. And there’s so many reasons for her to do so here. The rank hypocrisy and dismissal, the knowledge that this rant would apply equally to her if only he knew, the fact that John is just utter shit of a human being and anyone who had to suffer his company for any manner of time would want to be well and truly rid of him.
But one that’s actually jumping out of me is just how much that “real life is hard” line must have grated on Jocelyne.
Jocelyne is a poverty level Millennial, working an unstable freelance writing job, surviving on ramen. She’s been forced into a closet while those she is with have openly mocked the existence of people like her, suffering constant gender dysphoria and having legitimate barriers to transition.
She’s also smart and has done the research. She has a job under her real name, so she already has had experience with how hard it is to get a job as a trans woman and has likely read up on our staggering unemployment rates, job discrimination, and suicide rates. She knows that in Indiana she can be fired simply for being trans and this time in her world, more and more states are passing bathroom bills to make it illegal for her to shit in a public toilet.
She likely has read up on the staggering murder rate for trans women and has probably read at least one story of a murder very recently very close to her and knows that she could easily be a statistic if her family turns on her or if a Toedad type at church decided to “take care” of things.
She also knows the economy is in the tank while all of this is going on and while she desperately tries to get self-sufficient enough to not be completely fucked over when she finally says what she can’t take back.
And yet some spoiled rich brat stealing tax-free income enough to afford fancy cars wants to lecture her on “entitlement” and “life being hard”?
Yeah, no wonder Jocelyne’s near perfect run of playing peacemaker finally gave up.
Yeah,that “entitled” is hard to swallow, its just so… stupid and privileged and… entitled for John to say things like that, in righteous anger when he has NO idea of Becky’s or Jocelyne’s or even Joyce’s situation, when he did everything worse, only payed lip service to even TRYING to make things better, and then he drives off in his mustang to his house with his enormous wallet and leaves Becky and Joyce behind with NOTHING. (At least buy your baby sister some chicken fingers you smug fuck)
Jocelyne knows that if she gets in that car it will be another hour of listening to him blabb about Becky’s entitlement, and she’s not sure she can take that.
Technically I don’t think it’s considered embezzling if the church gives you something outright. It’s probably filed under “Aid for missionaries” or something, justified because it is aiding a missionary.
That said, I would be delighted to be proven wrong if it results in an arrest and/or the IRS coming down on John.
If it were possible to fire linguistic constructions out of a cannon and into the sun, every variation of “The youth of today” would indeed be among my top nominations. It’s been shitting things up since I think the invention of writing (Seriously, some of the oldest translated cuneiform we have is people whining about how the youth are disrespectful; I just don’t remember WHO’S cuneiform it is exactly)
It’s a thing, and in most places, it’s a legal thing…even in most places where other queer folk get protections on that front (of which there are depressingly few to begin with).
No, the sad part is that fired for being trans is more common of a thing than being hired despite it. There’s a reason that sex work and alternative economy stuff are some of the more common employments for trans people.
And there’s a reason why Jocelyne is a freelance writer scrambling on the web rather than serving as a staff writer for a state paper or something.
His pontificating on consequences in panel 5. It’s up to him — righteous, humble, doing-the-right-thing smugface John — to decide who should face consequences.
Nice analysis, but we don’t know if Jocelyne is a starving writer surviving from one cup of ramen to the next…we know next to nothing of her financial troubles or lack thereof
We’ve got a couple of clues. When she first met Ethan there was a comment of “I can help direct you to all the best and cheapest Ramen”. I believe there was a Patreon strip with similar implications.
This. The Patreon strip and Willis’s comments while writing it made it more explicit, but it’s been hinted at very strongly in comic that she’s living on the raggedy edge with not much of a safety net.
Wowwwwww, okay, so I now I don’t want to key this fictional character’s car, I want to force open the gas tank and pour sand in it. He deserves nothing nice.
What? No, it’s still a perfectly good car. What you need to do is forge the paperwork to donate the car to a charity that helps LGBT youth. Either he loses the car or will be viewed by the general public as a total dick.
which he probably is anyway but even more people will think it.
This entire lunch has been just AWFUL for Jocelyn! Like, holy crap. That “I wish I had a sister” must have hurt deep, and, from my personal experience, Joyce not knowing it would be hurtful probably just adds more pain on Jocelyn. Right in the feels, as always, Willis!
I’m so glad we’re spending more time with Jocelyn and Carla. <3
It gets worse as Josie has to sit back and basically silently back up John lest she burn all her bridges, which may well be financial in nature as well as family-based.
Plus, a lot of trans kids from very conservative, strict religious families deal with a lot of internalized shame. When you get the message that your god themself doesn’t approve of who you are inside… that takes some time to recover.
I thought the “I wish I had a sister” might have been pain with a tinge of hope that a confession to Joyce would result in gossip sessions while painting each other’s nails or whatever sisters who willingly speak to each other do together.
my sister is ten years older than me and I haven’t heard from her in about five years so I have no idea what Jocelyn might anticipate.
I’m very sorry your mom had to suffer that and makes your two’s little inside joke that much more bittersweet (but with emphasis on the sweet). This and the other anecdote you told about your brother makes me appreciate your family so much.
Ditto! I’m loving this Carla and Jocelyne heavy arc to death!
And yeah, it was probably painful in the moment, but there might also be hope there. After all, her sister defied God for her lesbian friend, so part of her may vainly hope that maybe this means some love can be spared her way as well. Doesn’t make it any less scary or painful, but I think Jocelyne is looking way more fired up than she has ever been and is taking some big risks so might be up for the biggest risk of them all.
I wouldn’t consider it a vain hope at all I think Joyce as she is now would have pretty much the same response as she had to Becky: confused yet accepting.
Meh, that’s a common name around here. Only that Cristi is for boys and it’s short for Cristian while for girls is Cristina. And the names don’t have the letter “h”.
“Stupid little sister, ‘mIright, Joss?
“They just can’t get rational, manly facts into their tiny little girl brains, ‘mIright, Joss?
“Those trendy QWERTY-queers are the worst, ‘mIright, Joss?
“Some people just don’t know how hard the REAL WORLD can be, ‘mIright, Joss?
“They are just so very entitled, ‘mIright, Joss?
“…Joss, you alright, there, brother, you looks a tiny bit miffed…. yeah, I know. I can’t stand that little attention seeker either… AACCCCK”
“So Christi was yakking my ear off, you know those wimmin’, amirite? And anyways, Joyce is being so uppity about this lunch, like hormonal much, yeah? Anyways, you got a lady in sights yet, bro? I mean you don’t want to grow up ‘odd’ like Joyce’s friend, right? Ugh, why do those people always demand special rights an-”
“Oh thank Christ, we’re here… I mean, aren’t you excited to see our sister?”
Oh lord, yes. And basically every other family gathering…
Honestly, extremly sucky as all this is, Jocelyne HAS found out that she might have at least one non-terrible family member, and that alone will hopefully make up for some of it.
Nothing kills your opinion of dudes more than being perceived as one of them and hearing what they have to say about women when they think there aren’t any present.
How dare you disrespect her because of her age? She’s fucking /eighteen/, and even if she was fifteen or twelve that doesn’t mean she’s not capable of being right where you’re wrong and that you don’t owe her respect. You’re a horribly arrogant adult and everything I hate about people like you.
Her friend’s ‘sin’?? Really?? I shouldn’t be surprised at all but nonetheless I’m utterly disgusted. I want to purge that word from the world. Sin is a weak word to describe things arbitrarily assigned as wrong by shitheads.
Thanks for butchering our acronym. It totally makes you look super intelligent and not at all like an asshole.
“Real life is hard; if you don’t conform to religious societal norms you deserve to be punished and you’re not allowed to complain even if your life is threatened. If you sin you cannot expect your family’s support or compassion unless you come crawling back on repentant knee. You may not have your own voice and if you try to speak against injustice you’re obviously a spoiled, entitled brat.”
Is that right, John? You’re almost explicitly denying your sister and her friend’s rights and personhood. Just using a bunch of euphemisms to cover it up. Why don’t you be honest: you’re a sexist, homophobic, bigoted jerkass who thinks children should be seen and not heard up until they’re grown men like you, because being an adult male makes you superior.
I think someone mentioned yesterday that they thought that while they’re both horrible people, Carol is simply stating her horrible position by saying it outright. Which is still horrible, but at least it’s not hard for people to see her for what she is.
John, on the other hand, is stating his horrible position by not saying it outright, because he doesn’t feel like he should have to explain why he’s obviously right in the first place. And whenever someone says something he doesn’t like, he just deflects it and pulls out all the gaslighting techniques in the book to avoid actually having to argue his position. Everything to put down the people that should defer to him because he’s their better.
And he’s so good at them too, good enough to fool a lot of people that aren’t familiar with said techniques. It either takes having lived through them, or to just be a generally cynical bastard (*waves his hand*) to see the red flags early.
At this point I think John grasps for whatever straw he can to explain away the fact that he got absolutely owned by his little baby sister, had no useful input at all and and did not begin to actually try to HELP her.
Fffffff….I was trying to reserve my judgement on John. It usually takes characters at least a couple strips to show their true selves, so I didn’t want to leap to conclusions, but god he is a dick.
John, you’ve known Becky pretty much her whole life and suddenly she’s just ‘Joyce’s friend’? A ‘misguided one’, even? You put down every subject change, and now you’re belittling your sister for yelling at you for belittling her, laughing about it, even, and saying that ‘college made her stupid’, basically. And that college has changed since you went, obviously, because Joyce is acting outside of your preconceived notion of ‘normal’ and ‘good’ and you never acted that way when you were in college.
The whole Brown family just reminds me of some of the people at my own church, which is troubling since the average age of our congregation is in the 60s-70s. They’re very old-fashioned. Nice people, but….well, you know. And it makes me wince to hear them talk about how they would pray for their roommates in college, and constantly ask them to come to church and come to know Jesus so they’d no longer be consumed by sin and I just……fff….I love you guys but stop it. Stoppit.
Not that it excuses anything, but John is a lot older, and Joyce has kinda said she isn’t very close to him because of that, so he may not really know Becky all that well.
Point still stands that he should know her name. But no, Becky’s been demoted to simply ‘Joyce’s sinful friend’. Like she’s lost the right to have her name used, as far as he’s concerned.
Let me preface this by saying that obviously I don’t think Becky or Joss’ situations are fair or just. Something has been confusing me though…Obviously Joss has huge risks if she is upfront with her identity, but isn’t she independent? Unlike Joyce, isn’t she in a position out from under her parents’ direct control? Joyce was terrified that her parents would pull her out of school because of the party attack, an outcome she is currently facing now, too, because of her choice to stand by Becky. I’m having a little trouble following why it is okay for Joss not to speak up, (not about being female or anything), when commentors before thought it was very bad before when Joyce wasn’t speaking out, for fear of the very situation she is facing now. I understand why the sisters are making a lot of the choices they’re making, but I’m not really comprehending why the commentors are reacting as they are for Joss versus Joyce.
…Really hoping no one yells at me for missing something that must be obvious to many other people..
From Patreon, she does have an apartment, but I would imagine her parents still give her some measure of financial support, especially as she’s currently the favourite (“precisely because they know the least about me” – Jocelyne).
Joyce is in a bad spot. Largely because she could lose her entire support network and other badness, possibly even be cloistered in a smaller box if she insists on “being obstinate” about her “sinner friend”.
Jocelyne is in a worse spot. Not because they can take college from her (she’s graduated and has work… albeit low paying and non-guaranteed work as a freelance writer). But because the moment she comes out, she will lose her family.
Family’s like theirs do not passively “tolerate” trans kids. They view it as an extreme version of Becky’s “sin” and as such even more extreme methods are needed. The ideal end for her would be to be disowned and banned from speaking to any family members, because her other fate would be the same reparative therapy that was waiting for Becky.
She will at that point lose all safety net as her family will likely literally refuse to talk to her and will likely only talk to her to demand she submit to being “fixed” if she does need them for anything (including access to her vital records and so on).
As such, she’s in the midst of preparing for that as best she can, securing as functional and self-sufficient of a life as she can before she can’t hold it in anymore, because things are going to get close to Becky levels when she does come out.
Just to elaborate on why fundies don’t tolerate trans kids, consider the following common fundie “reasoning” on their existence:
1) Sex is a dirty, dirty sinful thing that you must only share with the single most special person in your life (i.e. your husband; note that a man who has premarital sex “makes a mistake” while a woman is “defiled, worthless”)
2) Gay people are gay because they’re so obsessed with sex that they can’t be satisfied with “natural” relations and turn to their own gender. This is an abomination unto God and they deserve every bit of persecution they get (up to and including death, depending on the fundie).
3) Trans people are so super gay that they get confused about which gender they even are.
Note the lack in all that of any concept of dysphoria or inherent identity and orientation; anything not cis/het/mono is rooted in personal sin and cannot be passively “tolerated”. Sooner or later it all comes back to fundamentalists’ obsession with Other People’s Genitals.
But I don’t mean about her coming out…just about calling John and Mama Bear out on their bullshit which she IS doing here, but when Joyce struggled with standing up for Dorothy and later Becky, many commentors were kinda mean towards Joyce. In that regard, Jocelyne had less to lose than Joyce, but she didn’t get a negative reaction.
As for coming out, yeah, that won’t do her or Joyce any good right now in terms of backlash; that part I understand perfectly and isn’t the part I’m confused over.
This is where it gets psychological. Because Carol and John’s view on Becky and the ‘righteousness’ of what Ross did is firmly tangled up with their religion, disagreeing with them on this matter is disagreeing with their religion and basically telling them that God is wrong (because there is no possibility whatsoever in their minds that they are not following God’s commands in all aspects of their lives). We know how messy that gets; some sub-groups actually consider suggesting such a thing an open invitation for them to murder you.
Well, the thing with that is that Jocelyne is really fucking close to coming out in any angry fight with family and so has been trying to avoid angry fights, especially about LGBT stuff in order to avoid “saying something she can’t ever take back” because all this stuff is really important and resonant with her and she doesn’t fully trust herself.
The other thing that’s in play is that both Carol and Joyce have noted that there’s been aspects of Jocelyne’s just general behavior and demeanor that has been enough to prompt worry. Whether it be Joyce noting how suddenly it was very important growing up that “proper gender identity” be emphasized for Jocelyne or Carol noting that “public school seemed extra evil” when Jocelyne was going through: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/squeezing-2/
So basically, Jocelyne’s family has smelled that there’s something “off” about Jocelyne that puts her “at extra risk”, which means if she were to openly support an LGBT issue or person, it could be taken as a bit more of a confirmation of what she is than if Joyce were to.
So, it’s a risky dangerous thing for her, sadly.
That all being said, what Joyce is doing is mad brave, especially since as a young lady without a boyfriend who is fiercely calling her lesbian best friend “my family”, she is opening all manner of speculation about herself for the Carol and John side of the family and by openly defying the family she is at great risk of being taken away from her support network and “protected”.
And the people slagging on Joyce back when she hesitated were not at all being aware or respectful of how much she had to lose by “defying her family” and how much she has been trained all her life to see that sort of action as literal demon infestation.
I’m not entirely convinced Jocelyn is in worse spot. Everything you say is true, but she’s got an apartment and at least some writing income apparently. Almost certainly a degree. She’s not at all stable, but she’s got something of a foundation.
Joyce is a college freshman, entirely reliant on her parents. Who are already talking about pulling her out of school. When that comes down to the big fight and she doesn’t give up on Becky, which she won’t, she could easily get kicked out to. If she does, she’s in even worse shape than Jocelyne is.
Jocelyne for who she is. Joyce for not knuckling under.
And after overhearing that conversation last night, with echoes of Toedad ringing through everything her mom says, she knows it and she’s terrified.
As I said yesterday, Joyce, take one piece of advice from your asshole brother. Think it through. Find copies of your birth certificate and SSN.
Yeah, but Joss could very well get another ToeDad situation happening to her if she comes out/is forced out. So while she may have an apartment (which she might not be entirely funding herself) and a degree (which generally doesn’t get you as much as it may have in the past if I am to take my friends’ at their words, and I do) she could still be in danger of getting outright killed by some fundie who just wants to “cure” her.
Joyce could be forced home, she could be abused, she all sorts of things and it is SUPREMELY difficult speaking out for family, especially when a blanket has just been taken off from over your head for years, but she’s not -most likely- going to be killed, nor even probably questioned to the point where they try and put her in “reparative therapy” like Toedad wanted to do to Becky.
Both were in scary situations. I have a feeling, both are going to do the best things they are equipped to do and everyone being hard on either one is really lacking in empathy IMO.
Joss is a freelancer with a liberal arts degree in the depression economy and also a marginalized person. In short, she is nigh-guaranteed to be poor as shit. Her dialogue with Ethan also heavily suggests this, so it’s almost definitely canon.
Yup, and she’s in a state where not only can anyone fire or evict her for being trans and no other reason, but thanks to all the professional anti-gay groups bristling over being called out for the RFRA in that state, the person firing or evicting her would probably be lauded by said organizations as a brave freedom fighter standing against trans tyranny.
It’s not going to be fun even if it’s very necessary.
That’s an awesome story, I can totally see a sibling doing that.
“Huh, my brot…. SISTER (who would have known?) just entrusted me with something super important and personal. How do I show my support and love? I KNOW – LET’S MAKE A JOKE OUT OF IT!!!”
Supportive family stuff for trans people always makes me smile! And I also really think that Joyce will be initially taken aback, but will make the right choice to support and love her sister in the end. And then she’ll be fighting to the death for two sisters.
I want to see how John reacts to Jocelyn’s comment, yet from what I have seen I already believe that it will likely make the majority of people hate him more.
John isn’t going to get upset, because that’s not his way. But Carol will hear about this, and she is not anywhere near as diplomatic. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some chastising, or even some tangible consequences.
Understanding of WHAT?! How about understanding that your sister’s life was endangered? How about understanding she has suffered a traumatic experience that has cast her whole world into doubt?
But no, he’s so fixated on BECKY, he’s totally forgotten his sister.
He hasn’t forgotten his sister at all. His sister committed deliberate sins, and what’s worse, she’s ignoring the lessons and signs that God has deliberately given her to return to the path of righteousness. To him, that is far more dangerous than her facing off with a righteous man like Toedad. If she hadn’t done the wrong things, none of this would have happened. But her refusal to repent, and accept the error of her ways? She is straying from the path of Christ, and harboring dangerous, immoral ideas. If he actually respected her agency as a human being and weren’t writing off all of these actions as “some sort of rebellious phase,” his response would probably be much different…and reveal even deeper what a relentless scumbag he is.
I was positing a few days earlier than maybe, he was secretly gay and that’s what all this secrecy is about. A couple of days ago, that might have saved him. But the level of hypocrisy that would be present in him if that angle turned out true still puts all his conduct on a level of callous and reprehensible that isn’t easily redeemed. The only way left I think he could spin that kind of hypocrisy and get away with it is if it turns out he’s in the neighboring boat to Joss, and is much more dedicated to putting on the “no really I’m a perfect fundie” act.
I just simply don’t believe something like that is even remotely likely to happen, anymore. At this point we can convict him beyond a reasonable doubt as human waste, and only groundbreaking evidence to the contrary could change that.
How so? The prosperity doctrine crowd who throw expensive toys at their favoured sons (and skimming from the missions tithe is entirely an appropriate recognition of God blessing their work) is exactly the same crowd who erase orientation (and identity) as (a) worldly-trendy and (b) sin.
I get these folk in my facebook feed. If it’s any consolation, being directly affected via family is the only way I’ve ever seen any change.
(and to be fair, I could easily have wound up that way myself. I doubt I would ever have bongoed about entitlement while driving $50K worth of car, but I’ve seen exactly that sort in action.)
A naive part of me just still holding out hope that there’s a reason for John being a jackass, aside from “he’s a jackass”. It’d be nice for Joyce to have a wider support circle within her blood relatives is all.
My surviving grandparents are devout Christians (to the point I can’t sleep in the same room as my girlfriend if they’re visiting) and my workplace is owned, managed, and 90% populated by Christian fundamentalists, and yet I still have not personally experienced any people that are deranged to the point this comic goes to. The only reason I can accept that people like this do in fact exist is because I’ve basically grown up on the internet and am fully aware of the level of idiocy around us, especially when it comes to religion and/or politics.
What I’m saying is, you dismissing people who have trouble accepting these characters is just as ignorant(willful or otherwise) as the people who think these characters are exaggerated. Either make a helpful comment or stay silent.
Wow, thanks for that. Either make a helpful comment or stay silent. That’s super inappropriate in this situation. Like, someone being frustrated to see what looks like a strawman argument (AGAIN) is the same ignorance that people who might be thinking something is a strawman argument posesses? That’s not– that reads to me like, “Yeah, but some black people are just as racist as white people! It’s reverse racism, but you don’t see white people constantly being ‘divisive’ about race, it’s always the black people!” And yes I am WELL aware those are NOT the same things, but it’s reading on that sort of level. Sure, absolutely there are fundies who aren’t like that, I’m really glad you know some! That’s good! And there are fundies who are and I’m really glad that you know that from seeing it on the internet and so You Personally Won’t Discount John As Strawman.
But gosh golly your comment just rubbed the really wrong. It’s not actually helpful, and it’s silencing of people who are Really Tired of others saying 1)People like John Don’t Exist or 2)It can’t really be That Bad.
It’s not ignorance that spawned the comment above yours, I Imagine it’s cynicism and sarcasm and frustration, just like what spawns my own comments.
As someone with a similar disconnect to the idea that anybody could be this genuinely awful to their loved one after they have gone through a traumatic experience; it’s real.
Our life experiences ain’t everyone else’s, y’know?
He literally does not care at all about his sister. Like, not even a little bit. Don’t even try to tell me he does. She got held at gunpoint and he’s just like “your life was threatened? someone you trusted pointed a gun at you? lol could’ve been worse! get the fuck over it why are you upset i don’t understand.”
What in hell would have been this guy’s response if Ross had killed Becky and Joyce with that gun? It’s a shame they didn’t get a chance to repent but what’s God’s will is God’s will?
So… here’s how that community sees this whole affair:
If Joyce had been shot, then that would be sad, but a joyous moment, because Joyce would be in Heaven with God and it would have been “God’s plan” that she die there and it would serve as a test to the rest of them of the importance of trusting God’s plan. After all, they’ll clearly see her again soon once the Rapture happens and God’s chosen are whisked off to Heaven (though maybe not this part, I don’t think we’ve gotten confirmation one way or another whether Joyce’s sect are Rapturists or not).
However, she didn’t get shot, so it clearly wasn’t God’s plan that she be shot, so she was never in any real danger, because God was watching out for her and protecting her against the bullet because of her pure heart.
And it’s actually worse that she wasn’t shot, because if she was shot, she would have been a pure soul taken before its time, but with her PTSD, Joyce is now all angry and defensively supporting sinners and defying parents and now her immortal soul is at risk of going to Hell and losing the path to righteousness and God’s love.
As such, the family needs to come together to try and heal Joyce and turn her away from this dark path before its too late. Because it would have been best for her if she had died at that fountain in the eyes of that twisted theology.
And that’s the sickest part of all of this. How that worldview makes it seem better that a person die than be traumatized and changed by a near-death experience. Because all that matters is riding out the clock to your death before you lose your innocence and “goodness”.
This has not been my experience. Sure, that’s how you might logically process it, using their beliefs. But one of the big things I always noticed was the inconsistency in the dying/heaven area. Death was still always treated like a tragedy, even though we were supposed to celebrate it.
I mean, think about it. If they did take what you said, then abortion would be the best think you could do for everyone, since fundamentalists all believe that babies go to heaven. But, no, it’s horrible.
If Becky and her homosexuality wasn’t involved, I believe the responses would be completely different. It’s the “sin” aspect that is making them all calloused. Despite “love the sin, hate the sinner,” there’s a whole lot of “hate the sinner.”
Now, don’t get me wrong. They’d still believe that Joyce was never in any real danger. But they’d be trying to comfort her, not acting like Becky deserved what happened, and Joyce too for trying to help her.
Admittedly, I’m basing a lot on the flavor of awful Rapturist Pre-Millennial Dispensationalist Christianity I grew up surrounded by. Like, one where adults I grew up surrounded by literally said that it would be better for their son to be killed than grow up a (homophobic slur), because at least then his soul would be saved.
But that’s a sect that’s very convinced that the end of the world is any day now so it really is all about waiting out the clock and keeping your soul pure for just a little longer so you don’t miss out on Heaven (this meant a lot of pressure to abandon and treat shittily a child who “strayed” as unconditionally loving them could mean missing out on your ticket if the Rapture was to hit tomorrow.
And so for them, resisting abortion wasn’t really about the “dead babies” (not that most people who argue against access to legal, medically ethical surgical procedures actually believe in that) per se. It was more about the chance to openly perform goodness and thus secure one’s golden ticket to the Afterlife.
So publicly performing how much you hate abortion or hate gay people or support Israel or resisting the Anti-christ even though you totally want the Anti-christ to win faster so that you can stop running down the clock and just skip to the Rapture already.
But I agree that it’s not something that’s openly thought of outside bitter mumbled thoughts. Death would be mourned, it’d just have an air of “her time” and “God’s plan” and “wasn’t she so pure to be taken so young?”
And it just so happens that the reaction that she has lived is to assume she wasn’t in any real danger and that the bigger issue is saving her soul because it is at risk from supporting the lesbian. Carol and John won’t openly admit that they would have preferred Joyce to die (until the moment they consider her fully “lost” to the path of Christ), but it’s the general reality of how they’re different responses would have been to that circumstance.
Isn’t there also something about Joyce “taking herself out from under the umbrella of God’s protection”, by behaving in an “ungodly” manner when she “defied Ross’s right to enforce morality within his family”? And so anything bad that happens to her from that point on is her own fault for not trusting in God (who is assumed to be working through Ross, because bad fathers are apparently never a thing in that strain of thought)? Or is that the wrong flavor of super-fundamentalist – I recall that that one baby-abusing (what kind of sadist blanket-trains their child???) guy’s material was really popular in homeschooling circles, but… There’s a lot of things I find bizarre that are popular in those circles, and I often get them mixed up.
Thank you for communicating so clearly and thoroughly with so many people about these issues as someone who has lived them, it is extremely informative and your closeness to such problems makes your ability to explain them to others very easy to understand.
So who is the worse Brown? Carol or John? I mean they have similar bullshit views but on the one hand:
a) John is /also/ fine spending more money than is required from tithes to the poor (Honestly I can understand needing /a/ car for missonary work… in India)- but why get something so expensive here in the US itself at all? Buy your own damn car for the US. You can get certain cars dirt cheap in India if I recall. Though I’m unsure as to the ethics of how they are made? But I somehow think John wouldn’t give a damn. Wow John.
But:
b) Carol actually raised this festering wound on humanity. I’m thinking she has a huge influence.
So yeah.
But amusingly she wouldn’t have had the only influence.
It’s kind of interesting to note too that people were kind of annoyed at Joyce being this ‘bad’ representation of homeschooled kids once- yet John who went to public school is the raging douchelord so far of the kids. We can’t be sure about Jordan (enemy of your enemy isn’t always your friend) but like we know Jocelyne and Joyce are decent people and /they/ were the homeschooled kids.
It’s kind of interesting almost how the more their mother tried to grasp at them the further they flew to ‘views’ she wouldn’t approve of. It’s almost amusing when looking at that strip where Joyce is listening in on her mum and dad’s conversation that morning.
Inspite of Ms Brown’s best efforts they became decent people.
Two very different takes on horribleness.
Carol seems to believe that she’s right even if her beliefs are horrifying. The petty spite seems a little hard to justify though, even within her twisted moral framework.
John is a straight up corruption of the views he espouses. What those views actually are remain to be seen, but it would be hilarious if they were more tolerant than Carol’s.
Was ‘Jordan used to be the favourite’ something from a Patreon comic? Because the only reference to favourites that has come up in the public comics is Jocelyne saying she was ‘because they know the least about [her]’. John has never been criticized by either parent, and the stated reason for his not being at Family Weekend was being too busy with/caught up in his marriage. (Nor has he been praised – just mentioned in a neutral sense.)
He spent some of the money in a Mustang INDIA model, so its kind of right, and some of the money in the shipping to Indiana, just to show the people the blessings of the missionary life.
Aaaand Willis touches upon on of the things that always bothered me with most Protestant Churches I grew up in and around. I don’t expect Reverends to be dressing in burlap, but it gets a little ridiculous sometimes. :/
When we found out that the family disapproved of John I assumed that he was unChristian and possibly sympathetic. The reality is worse. He tacks a whole new layer of awful onto the Brown’s vile strain of faith, which was at least sincere.
I was willing to give John *some* benefit of the doubt in terms of him just having a combination of male privilege and a blisteringly downplayed understanding of just what exactly Joyce had been through. This exchange with Jocelyn though shows that he is, in fact, a pure bag of dicks. Judge harder from your fancy-ass car that you in no way earned, jerk-wad.
Can I also add that Jocelyne was pretty smart here if she was going to call out John at all, well it was better to do it here out in the open then back in the restaurant- making John feel more cornered and possibly lashing out and things worse for everyone perhaps in the end. Clever girl. Socially very clever girl.
She’s establishing her lines while not risking outing herself, which she knows is dangerous- and she finds it wanting now to play nice now she’s more sure of how they’d treat her.
Someone said ’10 points for Gryffindor’ but honestly I’m more thinking ’10 points for Slytherin’. Jocelyne is like a ‘good Slytherin’ more than anything to me. She makes calculated moves. She has to really to survive. But she’s a good person. Joyce is a Gryffindor clearly or a Hufflepuff perhaps. John I feel is one of those Ravenclaws when they’re a douchelord. (I say this as someone constantly sorted into Ravenclaw on online quizzes). Or heck maybe even the Ayn Rand!Hufflepuff for all we know (given at least in fandom- the go to trait is ‘hard work’ that they value). (And I say this while I think of Hufflepuff as generally having the fewest number of douchelords compared to all the others).
Jocelyne is a survivor. Moral, yes, but at the end of the day, she’s a survivor. Which is a big part of why her conversation with Becky was all about checking in on Becky’s means of moderate-term survival.
what I don’t understand is John’s “of what? her sin?” ‘question.’ does he really totally not sympathize with HAVING BEEN LITERALLY CHASED WITH A SHOTGUN? I reaaaaaally want to think that ahhhh maybe he just doesn’t know yet, or something???? or that the truth of it had been sugarcoated “well, ross went to go get his daughter, it got a little out of hand, becky’s still a sinner THE-END-FOREVER”, maybe?
seriously, without some SEEEEERIOUS way-too-nice stretches, there is NO way to consider what john is saying as remotely charitable, and yknow, fuck that, white christian dudes who have been given ‘stangs don’t need our pity!
How I read it is that John thinks that the whole thing is Joyce and Becky’s fault. Becky for “choosing” to be gay and running away to Joyce and Joyce for hiding her instead of returning her to her father so he could take her home.
Because Joyce flat out told him what happened last comic. Sure, a really short version, but still told him that she almost died.
Joss confirmed for god-tier character, holy shit. I thought we would still be in the dinner with Joyce and Becky rn. This is literally everything I could want from a single strip. Fucking smack down.
Note: John is getting more and more obviously bigoted and hypocritical in this strip. Will some people excuse his blatant homophobia and dismissal of his sister opinions? I don’t know! I haven’t read the comments above me. Survey says probably.
*crumples up and eats a long rant about character arcs and similarities and maid things and knight things and facades and transformations* *i literally just used a fake aspect why is this ‘not be an annoying nerd’ thing so hard*
Gee, John, don’t you know you can REALLY do the Lord’s work by coming back home and going full mega-church televangelist? I mean, that’s Corvette and Private Jet level Lord’s work right there.
…. you know those jokes that are funny because they’re true? The above is not funny for the very same reason. Humor is a strange beast.
“Understanding of what?” Understanding of the gun being pointed at someone and having verbal confirmation that he’s basically willing to start a bloodbath. At that point, it has nothing to do with Becky being a lesbian. In fact, replace “because Becky was a lesbian” with “due to a familial dispute” and try to legitimately tell me how you could justify that without making yourself sound inhuman. @_@
John is displaying a degree of self-awareness several notches below what I’d consider a person. Congratulations John, your shittiness has reached Toedad levels. You may not be as violent, but you are definitely as much of a pathetic moron.
Brown#1. “Dad”
Becky-action: Open up with a Joyce-is-a-picky-eater-joke. Signals that she is a the same old Becky. Asks him to allow her to take up space in his family.
Brown-reaction: “Of course Becky, Always.” Reserved but ultimately welcoming. Fulfilling minimum of basic humanity and then some.
Brown#2: “Mum”
Becky-action: Smile and nod. Say nothing. Have haircut.
Brown-reaction: “Why don’t you go and live in your father’s house because you are not welcome here”. Open, unprovoked hostility.
Brown#3: “Big brother”
Becky-action: Opens up with a hostile, crappy nazi-joke.
Brown-reaction: “Maybe you should think of things things before…” smug, condensenting dismissal. Victim blaming.
Brown#4: “Big sis”
Becky-action: Opens up with a hostile, crappy nazi-joke.
Brown-reaction: “High five”. Support, help, acceptance, general awesomeness.
Brown#5: “Too Jordon” (data missing because Jordan)
Brown#Prime: “Joyce”
Becky-action: Silly mindgames, surprise kiss, sad Beckyfaces.
Brown-reaction: “Pit you against anything else in my life. You will win every time.” Awesomeness off the charts, hearts swelling three sizes, acceptance, welcoming, Ross-punches.
Conclusion: Despite the subject being hotly debated in the comments every time Becky meets a new Brown, how they react to her say more about the Brown than about Becky. The three of them that has shown above-acceptable awesomeness have been able to excuse sass and rudeness from a scared, homeless kid.
Simply put, those of the Browns who do not allow Becky some leeway do not think she should take up ANY space in their family or in Joyce’s life at all. The “problems” Becky causes for Joyce is not by being too much Becky – it’s by EXISTING.
I absolutely love every part of this comment and I fully agree. How the Browns react to Becky’s openings really says more about the Brown family member than about Becky. And it’s the real moral test for the family members, even if they believe it’s a moral test to reject all semblance of her humanity.
If they can continue seeing her as the person she is, then they have a chance to break free from the poison they were raised in to a more compassionate and humane faith or non-faith. If not, they end up rolling in their awfulness and reflexive bigotry. All reveal their true personalities behind their masks of careful civility in her presence though.
Hank, wanting to do good, but guarded and prone to just disengaging from the true issue to try and appease everyone.
Carol, valuing her performance of “moral crusader” above all else, including the humanity of Joyce or Becky.
John, a smug piece of shit hiding behind a paper-thin mask of “civil tone”.
Jocelyne, scared, but supportive, wanting to leap out and reveal how similar she is in terms of being “family”.
Joyce, needing a reboot, but then more supportive than she could ever have thought possible.
Hell, she works as an interesting bellweather with a lot of people, which I guess is a lot like life. For someone’s true character, never see how they treat a social superior or a dominant group member. See how they treat the least fortunate. The homeless, the deeply marginalized, the visibly mentally ill. How someone reacts to those individuals says a lot about who they are as a person and their real character when the chips are down.
Okay, See, I was reserving my opinion on John. During the Restaurant scenes, yes he was a bit of an idiot, but well, he hadn’t really said anything that really merited hate. Stick up his ass? Sure, but the comments calling him shitface and similar were kinda Ott in my opinion. Now however? Rage ahead.
It’s… not over the top when there are warning signs. People in the comments were saying hey, x y and z action we saw in the dinner point to this character being a bigot. Commenters say they don’t want to judge him despite being pretty overt about his unwillingness to budge on his awful opinions, the worst being yesterday, where Joyce brought up that her family was defending a man who pointed a gun in her face and he called her a child.
Just because some people in the comments didn’t see the signs, doesn’t mean that they weren’t there, or that other people overreacted when they pointed them out. John’s behavior today shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone who was paying close enough attention.
Logically, up until yesterday’s strip there was a viable possibility of John having false/incomplete information about the event (and it’s better not to assume malice when something can be explained by ignorance). However, yesterday’s strip voided the “Carol News Network defence” and proved that he’s definitely an asshat.
2 days before that John basically that said that Becky being unable to get her SSN because her house is locked up was a consequence of her coming out, and that she should have thought of that beforehand.
The signs WERE there, but like the person below me, many people didn’t want to see it, which is an irritating mistake at worst on a forum like this in regards to a fictional character. Real life though? Ignoring warning signs because you don’t want to see them can have serious consequences. That’s why all of the people who were in similar positions to Becky saw this coming from a mile away.
Of course you shouldn’t ignore warning signs.
However, while signs are a sufficient reason to take precautionary measures, they’re not proofs, and therefore not enough to pass judgment.
So, before yesterday, the correct reaction was “watch out, he can be an asshat”, not “fuck him, he’s an asshat”.
Maybe for you the examples listed don’t qualify enough for you to judge, but that’s a rule not everybody goes by. Moreover, for me, the difference between “I probably can’t trust this guy” and “I KNOW I can’t trust this guy” exists, but is semantical at best. The conversation was going downhill fast and it wasn’t a leap in logic to see John land headfirst into the bigot pile. The further we went in days, the sillier “Let’s just give him a chance before we pass judgement” comment became.
If John’s early, minority-bigoted comments weren’t motivated by deeper, below-the-surface bigotry, then where did they come from? Luck? Misunderstanding? Those answers don’t make as much sense as him being someone with beliefs that align with his mother, and would require more coincidence than the conclusion a lot of the other comments came to. So, in essence, they used Occam’s razor.
So, as I said earlier, those commenters were not over the top, since there were clear signs pointing to this conclusion. Also, as a bonus, they were entirely correct.
> Moreover, for me, the difference between “I probably can’t trust this guy” and “I KNOW I can’t trust this guy” exists, but is semantical at best.
That wasn’t what I was saying. If you suspect someone to be a bad person, you obviously shouldn’t trust him. Distrust is main of the “precautionary measures” I mentioned earlier, and doesn’t require judgment.
What requires judgment, on the other hand, is the overwhelming urge to punch John in the face we’re probably all feeling now.
I’d compare that situation to a criminal case: Whena person is suspected to have commited a crime, they are arrested to temporarily isolate them from society, but the punishment isn’t dealt until it is proved in court that the person commited the crime.
By the way, things he said in 1st and 2nd of April strips could be adequately and plausibly explained by ignorance. Yesterday’s strip mainly ruled out him not knowing what happened.
So, in the first two days, the Occam’s razor didn’t apply as much as Hanlon’s razor.
You’re kinda missing what I’m going for here. John isn’t a criminal, and judgement isn’t really a factor. The only thing I’ve been saying is that it was not an overblown or outlandish conclusion to assume that John was a bigot. We’re not prosecuting John or getting ready to sentence him, we’re making comments about who he is on a forum, so the analogy doesn’t really align since making calls about him here doesn’t hurt him, whereas the parallels you provided run the risk of harming him if he’s innocent.
Moreover, ignorance and bigotry go hand and hand, to the point where they’re often used interchangeably, so I don’t see how that can be construed as a different/better answer. He knows Becky is gay, he is told how things have become difficult for her, he is rude to Becky anyway. Ignorance or bigotry, John is not a nice person in this scenario, and this happened pretty early, so again, John being ignorant/prejudiced is the most logical conclusion.
John isn’t a baby, he’s a grown man. If you’re still that ignorant going on 30 years old, it’s as bad as malice.
It seems to me that the very best that could have been granted John, every step of the way, was that whatever he was ignorant of, who was smugly pleased to be so AND judgemental based on his suppossed ignorance AND … He knew the core points, yes? Becky was kidnapped at gunpoint, Joyce was threatened. What else did he need to know? The only thing he asked about was Joyce’s wrist and when she told him he sided with Toedad!!
He’s not someone accused of a crime, nor are comment thread participants in legal authority to harass him over our suspicions or to deny him freedom and a fair trial.
We’re just people with opinions about people and life experiences that make us more or less sensitive to certain flavors of bullshit. “Innocent until proven otherwise” when applied to the opinions people are allowed to have about a person or character can often be extremely negative, because it can overprivilege perspectives that have the least skin in the game as well as make our extremely flawed court system the final arbiter despite the fact that it often gets things wrong and thus minimizes those who are most likely to be hurt by social attitudes.
I’m thinking most specifically (in the real world) of people who try and pretend that people shouldn’t have opinions about a rapist or a hate crime offender until the court has had its say, despite the fact that neither is actually all that likely to be actually processed and denying people’s right to process their feelings of anger and hurt about abusers and recognizing red flags is an important part of activism to change that fact.
For a fictional character, like in this, well, it’s a matter of “oh, god this red flag or this annoying behavior” and reacting to it. And when people are like “nuh uh, you’re seeing things that aren’t there and you’re also being deeply unfair and a mean feminist” and all the stuff that got thrown at a lot of the people who were noticing stuff earlier, it gets kinda dismissive of people’s experiences and more off.
Like, one thing I belatedly noticed is how frequently white cis male characters who are tripping red flags are treated with “wait, hold on, there might be a convoluted way they are actually totally awesome” and angry calls to withhold judgement whereas victimized queer characters tend to get slammed for every instance of imperfection even though it’s not a matter of ignoring red flags, it’s just a failure to keep in mind their actual actions or circumstances.
Addendum to emphasize that there’s nothing wrong with hope and empathy and being willing to see the good in characters and hope that they aren’t as awful as they seem.
And I saw a lot of that too, people who were worried he was awful, but holding out hope that maybe he wouldn’t be or wouldn’t be as bad as he was.
But that shouldn’t be at the expense and minimization of people who are noting what he was doing wrong when his awfulness was subtler.
Yeah listen to Cerberus, who said similar things to what I said but more eloquently and with a more empathetic approach than my 6 o’clock brain. Well said!
Even the Carol News Network defense didn’t really work. He’d have had to have heard about this only from Carol, in a very truncated, biased form and then not tried to find anything else about it. The incident made the news.
Can you imagine hearing about your little sister as the victim of some kind of crime and not trying to find out more?
More generally, haven’t we learned yet at least in this comic, to listen to the people saying “I’ve been here. I’ve been abused by people like this. This one is scary.”
This is fiction. This is Willis. He’s not going to have a story arc where the brother is a condescending prick about Becky’s kidnapping and have it be a wacky misunderstanding. He’s not going to have an arc whose moral is Joyce needs to calm down and listen to her religious relatives. This isn’t that kind of story.
> This is Willis. He’s not going to have a story arc where the brother is a condescending prick about Becky’s kidnapping and have it be a wacky misunderstanding.
Wacky, not. I can totally see Willis making a dramatic misunderstanding-fueled plot, though. After all, quite a lot of stuff in DoA is essentially a case of Poor Communication Kills…
But not this one. Not a “Joyce’s anger over her family dismissing Ross’s threat to her and Becky’s lives is just because of a misunderstanding”.
Wasn’t going to happen. The condescending prick isn’t going to be in the right here. Joyce doesn’t have to calm down and listen to the menfolk.
Willis isn’t going to deliberately reinforce all the horrible tropes and mindsets we’ve been talking about the last few days.
I… honestly don’t know how did you read my comment, because I never implied that John was/could be/whatever in the right, or that Joyce “has to listen to menfolk”.
BTW, what menfolk? The bigots here are John and Carol, and out of these two only one is male…
Because that’s how the “misunderstanding” would have had to play out. Not right in the “Toedad was right” or even the “Your reaction was extreme” side, but in the “You’re getting angry for no reason”, “You’re not listening” sense. The tone policing. And I said “menfolk” because even though there’s only one man doing it here, it’s still such a incredibly gendered thing that doing it in this context would have to reinforce that.
Hey if you want dramatic misunderstanding then look no further than Danny hanging out with his girlfriend’s PTSD trigger while crushing on her ex-boyfriend.
Yeah no, gonna disagree on this, even if you meant it in jest. Yes, obviously John would have to be a bigot, the narrative essentially dictated that fact from the beginning, otherwise there would have been no conflict. I also completely agree that the signs were there, willis wasnt exactly subtle in that regard. But call me naive or whatever, I will always try to Reserve judgement until I have clear evidence. Until today, his statements were kinda misinformed, hasty, and slightly condesending, but honestly nothing that earned him the vitriol we have seen over the past few days in the comments. Today he crossed the line by like a mile with that statement. I dunno, it just bothered me that commenters were so quick to fight what is essentially internalized bigotry with open hate.
Yesterday he walked out on his sister for complaining her family was defending someone who almost murdered her. Everyone has a different line that shouldn’t be crossed. Just because yours fell on what happened today doesn’t make other people over the top for seeing him for what he was earlier.
“Until today, his statements were kinda misinformed, hasty, and slightly condesending,”
You didn’t actually read yesterday’s strip, did you? Because “slightly condescending doesn’t even begin to cover what it was he actually did there. It really doesn’t. Joyce just reminded him what it was Ross actually did, and he just put her down with as many gaslighting techniques in the book that was possible to put down in one strip. He most certainly already crossed the line there -at the latest-; and most people who’s been on the receiving end of that style of BS (or in my case, just being a really cynical bastard) obviously could tell really early what was coming. I’m sure some of them still held out -hope-, and I surely did some of that myself; but I never thought it was going to be realistic that John would be anything but a real asshole.
People were quick to point out what he was really doing because he was putting up some fucking -huge- red flags. And now, even as you say you also realised that those flags were there, you’re -still- trying to blame people for spotting these red flags for being over the top and “too quick to jump to it”, instead of simply acknowledging that they were damn right all along; and that maybe you should’ve listened to them a bit closer in the first place.
Premature Haters of COMPLETELY Unsympathetic, etc, etc., etc. Brother John, eh? Are we worse than John himself? Anyway, I deny prematurity and jumping to conclusions. John was So Much a Dick/Douche/etc in EVERY strip that I disliked him every day for what he did that day. AND THEN he was even more of a dick the next dsy, so I disliked him afresh. AND THEN …
@EmperorNorton dued, I’m not trying to blame anyone! All I said was that some of the really hateful comments, which started right at the very beginning, were basically incredibly harsh considering thet John hadn’t really even done anything but criticize Joyce for punching someone. We didn’t know how much of the situation he knew etc. so what was happening essentially was vitriol for ‘someone he will probably turn out to be’. All I know is, when I have judged people too hastily in the past, more often than not I have regretted it. But whatever, this strip (and yeah you are right, yesterday too for the most part) kinda did away with the need for discussion.
@ Fogel “Are we worse than John himself?” what? Of course not, he is a bigot with a 14th century world view. There are literally Zero positive traits written into his personality, because that is who Willis decided he be. You are some real-life guy/girl who is probably quite a nice and non-judgemental Person, who might be a little emotional about a Webcomic. Do you honestly think that comparison is fair?
I mean, I saw the signs too, as far as 3 days ago, but I really didn’t want to think that John was bad cause before then, he seemed pretty cool. I was hoping Christi would be a dude, or something Carol wouldn’t like.
After that point, I was in denial of his shittiness, until today.
Like a poor sweet summer child I was actually holding out hope that he was just relaying Jocelyne’s request, that maybe she’d want to come out to just two siblings at first. The hope lasted a while. ‘Bout a mayfly’s lifetime.
What I’m hearing is “If I don’t judge her and treat her terribly she’ll go around thinking there aren’t enough terrible and judgmental people in the world, and that would be false seeing as I’m one of them.” What I don’t hear is any reason the world needs anyone like you, John.
It’s entirely telling how Carol an John have both tried to elide over that fact because of its inconvenience to their worldview. Like, Becky was raised by someone so extreme in the “proper way” that she wasn’t even allowed internet or phone and went to her school in the proper, god-fearing ultra Christian place.
But acknowledging that would be inconvenient for their desire to think of queerness as being something picked up by exposure to degenerates in public schools rather than something that you are.
So instead she’s just someone who “jumped on the trend” in a “college”, all to justify viewing Joyce as in danger for being in public school and thus feeling it would be better to take her out and put her in a safer institution, like the exact one Becky got caught being gay at.
So, Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Queer, Xylophilic, Yurtsexual, and Zebragirl?
Xylophilic – Attracted to ents. Often closeted. Tends to date a human to hide one’s identity, who is referred to as a “treebeard”.
Yurtsexual – Attracted to Turkic nomadic shelters – a very tents existence. Zebragirl – Transformed into a demoness by slamming shut a magical, ancient Babylonian tome found in the attic. Usually attracted to jerky men with angelic names like Michael.
I mean, once again, in most of these people’s worldview, Toedad went to utterly heroic lengths to try to save his daughter from eternal damnation, the very last living member of his family’s soul was at stake, and for that act he unjustly paid out his freedom for his entire life, all because their juvenile and confused daughter strayed from God’s path under the influence of an irredeemable lesbian succubus. Someday, God will grant Toedad eternal life in heaven for following his plan and his teachings so thoroughly, and none of these people will ever believe he wasn’t acting out of an absolute moral obligation for his daughter’s spiritual health and well-being. He is the hero of this story. Joyce is the fool, and Becky is the Godless heathen villain. It is a great tragedy that Becky wasn’t “saved,” probably through means that most people haven’t mentioned because it would require a content warning longer than this entire post.
Yes and that’s been the undercurrent of the whole diner conversation. Which became clearer and clearer throughout, though he didn’t say it openly until he was away from them and in company he assumed would agree.
Re.: Panel 4 — No, John, understanding of the fact that she’s traumatised from the experience of having a man who was an uncle to her in all but blood sticking a gun in her face and threatening to kill her and her best friend if he is not obeyed immediately. Oh, but of course, that was their fault too, wasn’t it? One of the ‘consequences’ that entitled little girls like them don’t understand comes with their actions and from which they have no right to expect protection.
John, my friend, it doesn’t fall to me to stand in judgement over you. However, you are beginning to read like one of the people who would plead with Jesus “Lord, Lord! Did we not do many powerful works in your name?” and he will reply “I never knew you! Get away with me you workers of lawlessness.” In your case, he will also add: “Still, you got a cool car out of the deal! I do hope you decide it was worth the price you’re paying!”
I mean, hey, he lives life correctly. You sure as hell never see him ending up being kidnapped at gunpoint, right? Sure proof that God favors him due to his piety.
General McPentagon *peaks up from bunker*: “All right, Joyce and John are separated, I think we are in the cle…”
Jocelyne: [Sick Burn]
General McPentagon: “THERE IS SO MUCH FIRE!!!!!”
Oooh, did John really skim funds from his church to buy that car? That’s bad, John. Really, REALLY bad.
Also, now that I know your true motivations for the way you acted towards Becky, I can’t defend you anymore. I’m always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, until proven otherwise. And you, sir, have just proven otherwise in a MAJOR way.
No, no, John didn’t embezzle, that’d be simple stealing. Instead, he is an unapologetic, unabashed traveling mouthpiece for an organization so corrupt and distanced from its original teachings that it a) has the free funds and b) thinks it’s appropriate to simply buy him an expensive sports car. Jesus washed the feet of the poor, but John can probably just pay others to wash his mustang.
I’ve never seen someone win an argument that hard before. After inflicting that much ownage, I’m pretty sure Jocelyn should be taken up to Heaven on a ray of light, having at last achieved the true purpose of Man: that burn.
what if you’re saying it because you have a horrible sports car addiction and are buried in mountains of debt, and you just bought another one and they’re gonna reposess your house, but you can’t help but press the remote on your new sports car
I would like permission to copy and print the last panel of this comic.
This would be for the purpose of reprinting it and posting on every church billboard in my local area, especially the pacific island ones.
Huh. Apparently so far, the understanding ones in Joyce’s family have had blue eyes. Dad, Jocelyne, and, of course, Joyce. Though Willis could always throw us for a loop at anytime as well.
But I don’t mean about her coming out…just about calling John and Mama Bear out on their bullshit which she IS doing here, but when Joyce struggled with standing up for Dorothy and later Becky, many commentors were kinda mean towards Joyce. In that regard, Jocelyne had less to lose than Joyce, but she didn’t get a negative reaction.
As for coming out, yeah, that won’t do her or Joyce any good right now in terms of backlash; that part I understand perfectly and isn’t the part I’m confused over.
Well… It was there. She was continually trying to redirect John and Joyce away from an argument and trying to support Becky. The problem is that John had his mission and Joyce had her new attitude. The consequence was that keeping the peace proved impossible.
Walking through the parking lot, Jocelyne suddenly realised just what an asshole her older brother was. This wasn’t miscommunication and it wasn’t misunderstanding. He literally thought that Becky and Joyce had got what was coming to them from Ross and had no sympathy for them whatsoever. It’s at this point that Jocelyne realises that John is a moral hypocrite and tells him so.
I’ve said this before but I’m pretty sure that Jocelyne is pretty scared of the consequences of pushing the more radical members of her family too far. I suspect that the cautionary tale of Jordan may yet prove to be the explanation as to why.
There’s also the immediate fear posed by getting involved with this conflict, especially when it was more heated. She had no idea what was going to happen, and as a closeted trans woman, she was likely worried for her own safety–for entirely good reasons! Now that it’s a bit after the fact and John is still just reaffirming what an asshole he is, she’s decided it’s worth it to say something. All in all, IMO considering her situation, she had no obligation to put herself in danger before (and like you said, she was trying to quietly help).
Oh, I’m sure Jocelyne always knew. He’s not hiding it, not from her.
She just couldn’t take it anymore – and had a relatively safe avenue of attack – greed and hypocrisy, much safer than fighting the homophobia. That could lead to questions and things getting said.
Also, Jocelyne gave the man ample chances to not be a complete asshole, hell even throwing in a last ditch save face here with the “hey, maybe ‘we’ could be ‘forgiving’ of the sister who nearly got murdered by the fuckface from our church” bit in Panel 3.
John just rejected them all because he’s an asshole.
This is interesting and I’m wondering if this is actually going to happen. Willis has previewed a scene that, IIRC, he called Jocelyn’s apartment. Maybe Joyce and Becky will drive ‘Josh’ back to ‘his’ place and the whole thing is going to come out.
Oh-hoo… John, you don’t quite fit the poverty oath or maybe, should I say, humility, my man. Bigotry? Why yes, fundie culture at best. Real Life is hard, but it doesn’t excuse hipocrisy.
…I think Jocelyne has had enough. Like she’s not even focusing on what he did wrong, she’s just hammering “you are a fucking asshole” through his thick skull.
Ideally, they have a low key fight right now and Jocelyne goes back to rejoin Joyce and Becky and comes out of closet and Joyce is so happy to have a sister and everyone hugs and nothing hurts ever again
> low key fight
Make it a huge fight, ended with Jocelyne telling him “…and by the way, I’m a girl!” and going back to Joyce and Becky, leaving him completely shocked in this parking lot.
but this would ruin Jocelyne’s life, as he’d inevitably tattle on her to their parents, at least cutting off financial and emotional support, at most putting her in actual active physical danger a la Ross McIntyre himself.
Yup. Which is not to say it isn’t coming, because Jocelyne is, as you noted, had just about enough of all of it.
And it’s got to be infuriating for her as a person who knows that all these comments about Becky would apply very similarly to herself and yet given a behind-the-scenes sneak peek at the full level of awful because she’s seen as just being the “favorite” child.
“Heavily accepting” is a bit generous. “Learning to cope” is more his speed, which is honestly the best Joyce and Jocelyne can do right now. But I don’t think it will be enough. The idea of transness goes beyond simply “liking the same gender”.
Time is coming when Carol and John are going to force him to chose sides. I’ll place a small bet if I can get decent odds on him jumping the right way, no matter how conflicted and pushed he might feel.
Once got flown to the West Coast for a job interview and was told to rent a car. I reserved an economy; they gave me a mustang with 8 cylinders and duo carbs. At the time I drove a VW Beetle which I took onto the highway by flooring it and praying. So when I was getting on the highway out of SFO, I floored it out of reflex. Id swear that I saw those elongated rainbow/spectra things that happen when you enter warp.
Well north of 1,000, possibly 2,000. Certainly enough that it comes close to breaking WordPress’s system. Willis has had to close comments sometimes just because moderating the oncoming storm is just too difficult for him to do.
“Deceptress” aka Ross Has A Gun: 1,602 comments
“Writer” aka Her Name Is Jocelyne: 1,441 comments
“Hit the road” aka Becky Dares To Talk To Hank: 1,021 comments
“Moral Foundation” aka Hank Thinks Hitler Was A Jew: 1,042 comments
So the previous comic, “Settle down” aka John Goes Tone Policing being at 1,056 means something.
I can’t think of any other comic that have passed the 1,000 comments mark. Even Sal’s “you are whiter, Walky” didn’t go over 700.
And of course, we can only guess at how big the comment sections of the closed comics like those around the Carla vs Mary arc would be.
So, with those links and the comic after this one being posted, the most commented are:
1- Deceptress (Ross Has a Gun), 1602
2- Leverage (Mary Blackmails Ruth), 1542
3- Trendy (this one), 1211+
4- Thoughts (Danny Daydreams of Ethan), 1164
5- Settle Down (the one before this one), 1065
So those two comics are on the Top 5. Impressive.
If I’m still missing something with more comments, please do tell me.
I do remember a moment when I regained my Christian faith, which ironically I’d been losing while I became more and more fundamentalist in behavior.
God spoke to me about 15 years ago and said: “Chuck, you’re being a homophobic asshole who hurts other people to make yourself feel good.”
After that, I’ve tried to be as un-Johnlike as possible. I haven’t always succeeded but the recognition kicking the ground out from others to make yourself feel taller was the root of my actions (and the local fundamentalist culture) really put a lot of it into context.
Yes, yes, I deserve a great deal of praise for that. Thank you, thank you. I get all the cookies for being the bare minimum required of a decent person. But to clarify, I wasn’t asking for the aforementioned cookies *crunches on his* but actually pointing out the attitude behind this is simple bullying I think. John wants to look down on Becky because he wants to feel bigger and badder. It’s spectacularly petty.
This
I’m not perfect in my faith, hell no one is.
But I at least try to treat others with love and respect, even if their beliefs and life choices are different from mine. Because that’s the Christ would have done it.
In short.
John is an ass, and is probably going to hell.
John’s from the Love the “Sin”, Hate the Sinner stream of Christianity. Love the “Sin” because its a weapon you can use to make yourself feel all self-righteous. (“Sin” because I refer to i refer to what he says is “sin”.)
I would love to see Joyce’s youth minister sit down next to her an Becky, after overhearing that conversation, and offer to pray with them for compassion and understanding, without recrimination or accusation. Not everyone in her family’s congregation can be a complete douchnozzle…. I hope…
There’s a text-adventure game called Community College Hero. In it, a teacher blatantly trades sexual favours for better grades and acts proud of it. I thought it had made me reach maximum hatred for a fictional character. I was wrong.
Oh, how I was wrong.
However, I now eagerly await Willis’s DoA-spinoff comic, “Joss Burns – there ain’t no sunscreen that’s strong enough.”
According to Word of Willis, the eyes (and the hairs) are gender-based. Kids get the hair of the same-gendered parents, and the eyes of the opposite-gendered parents.
It doesn’t help that her dad’s hair is also a similar shade. Joyce and Jocelyn have similar hair shape to Carol, a bit. It’s hard to know, with John being the only brother we’ve met so far.
I hope you’re not right, cause that would mean the good in this family is genetic based which sounds dumb. Plus that would be way too easy an out when dealing with carol and johns awfulness.
Ok… But, like, he is referring to “being treated like a human being, including the right to have emotions and not get a gun pointed at you” as being entitled? Not to say that negative “entitlement” doesn’t exist, but these days it tends to be a buzzword for any person looking to complain about millenials wanting to be seen, as, y’know, people. Or being able to afford stuff like food and a roof over their heads.
Funny thing, no-one in that meeting (and possibly the strip) feels more wrongfully entitled that Jonathan himself.
Also, can we please stop using “entitlement” as a bad thing? Words have actual meanings, and I, for one, am quite content in letting, say, Becky being entitled to not being hunted down by a gun-toting fundietard for being sexually attracted to girls, and Joyce being entitled to picking from whatever menu she likes the food best (I like apples AND oranges, so what?)
EXACTLY. Half the time, people who whine about “entitlement” are the kind that think they’re entitled to spew their own crappy, bigoted opinions without being criticized or challenged for them (y’know that “everyone’s entitled to their own opinion!” thing that never mentions how yes, you can have your own shitty opinion, but that doesn’t mean no one else has the right to call you out on it).
My only defence for this statement, “shitty opinion” is not something that can be 100% objectively defined. Now we all have an idea of what a shitty opinion is but sometimes what we personally believe is a shitty opinion, might only be shitty to us personally. Not saying that we shouldn’t call out shitty people and opinions. For example, despite me being a Christian, I completely disagree with John’s attitude and it’s not the way someone who claims Christianity should act. It’s appalling to me.
No, the dismissal of kids these days – like talking about the “entitled college students” of today as if they were so different from you – is wrong too. But I guess it’s an ordinary sort of putting yourself above other people, not first class asshole work like “trendy LGBQXYZ”.
It’s terrible as a blanket statement, but let’s be honest, there are plenty of “kids these days” who can properly be blanketed by said statement and do actually deserve it.
Plato’s Republic: “the young men of the governing class, are habituated to lead a life of luxury and idleness both of body and mind; they do nothing, and are incapable of resisting either pleasure or pain.”
There are lots of people who feel entitled to things they shouldn’t. Thinking it is a problem of the young, though, is a problem of older people with no self-awareness.
True.
Perhaps a better statement would be “some people’s kids”
Which is a general statement I use when I see anybody being a dipshitted/entitled/arrogant dumbass, even if they are older than me. Lol.
University students usually goes with Joyce’s age bracket, and most people talk about them as entitled the same way they do other millennials, like you see in this strip.
If you were talking about the handful of older students instead, congratulations for looking down on a different group than usual, I guess?
Grabs the hacked Muzak and plays “Fortunate Son” to John on a loop.
And Joyces family shrinks to Her (of course), Jocelyne, possibly the brother no one mentions, and Hank (despite never really standing up for his beliefs) as decent human beings.
Okay, I have to admit I don’t understand this mindset.
I can understand John being of the mindset where he tries to defend Hank’s attempt to abduct his daughter. He thinks she was living in sin and Hank was only doing what was best for her. I can ever understand John defending the necessity of using a gun, although I don’t see why anyone would think that was a good decision.
What I don’t understand is why John doesn’t get that Joyce might be upset about getting a gun pointed at her. This seems like a perfectly straightforward reason for complaint.
Ross is a good Christian. Why would Joyce have ever possibly thought that Ross might actually hurt her? The gun was just to make a point, she was never in danger.
And if she wasn’t sinning by defending the lesbian and defying Ross’s righteous authority, he wouldn’t have had to do it.
She may be upset, but she should have thought about the consequences of her actions.
I imagine he blames her for it. If she’d been a good christian and sent her sinner friend home to her father as soon as she showed up, instead of hiding her, things could’ve been fixed peacefully. Instead she and Becky drove a good christian man to an extreme, out of desperation and wanting to save his daughter.
And since the gun thing already happened and she wasn’t harmed, obviously any lingering ill feelings about it are just hysterical womanly feelings.
Strictly because, if she hadn’t sinned, these tragic events never would have come to pass. If she didn’t want God to have one of his devout followers hold her at gunpoint, clearly she should have stayed on the right side of God, like her brother.
Looking back at lunch, I realized whats been scratching the back of my consciousness: we didn’t see John and Jocelyne and Joyce and Becky greet each other with huge hugs. Did Willis just not show those OR do these folks not do hugs, even when 2 of them were in serious danger of being murdered?
I get the impression John discouraged jocelyn from hugging her sister, or at the very least, she knew that the conversation was not going to be a happy one.
They’ve heard of it, and decided it was one of those evil things that those deceived by Satan do, because otherwise it’d mean they’d have to be respectful to other people, and you’re saved through your belief not your actions. Making an actual effort is for those that don’t believe in Jesus (I wish I was kidding in ANY of that).
But it’s all moot anyway, because Becky is a lesbian and therefore not actually “human.”
It’s interesting. I was rereading the comic where Hank and Joyce were talking right before getting into the car, and Hank mentions how he’s been doing a lot of thinking and praying, and tells Joyce that she’s a woman now. It’s incredible (and rather sad) how her own father is capable of recognizing that she is an autonomous, complex person who is an adult, but her own older brother refuses to admit that (because it’d blow a hole in his ridiculous beliefs).
Oh yeah, I know exactly which comic you’re talking about without even looking.
And I remember saying then that while Hank still has a way to go, he’s at least -trying- to become a better person. He really is. He’s got a long, unknown path ahead of him, but he’s taken those first few crucial steps, while people like Carol tries dragging him off it.
And we see today just how much of a difference that really makes. Yeah, he’s not going to win “dad of the year” awards, but if we don’t reckognise his improvement, if we don’t encourage his improvement, if all we do is saying that he should already have done so much better… Well, I can’t say that he shouldn’t have; but I know, and pretty much all studies show, that positive reinforcement works better.
So yeah, if we ever meet a Hank in our lives, let’s try to help them with the next few steps, so that they don’t revert back to John.
I personally think religion is bullshit, and here’s why.
If god knows the future, then it must already be determined, if it’s determined, then we have no free will, so either there is no hell, or god is an asshole.
There’s also the fact that christians don’t believe in evolution, if you don’t believe in evolution, but believe in Noah’s ark, then every time a new disease is discovered, your mental image of Noah should get worse.
There’s like a bizarre amount of what’s wrong with this.
1. If you know a guy is going to throw a ball because he says he is and you know him, he still chooses to throw the ball.
2. Hell is a concept which has multiple patterns of belief. C.S. Lewis basically just threw it as a place to go if you reject God.
3. Where in the world do you get the idea Christians don’t believe in evolution?
American fundamentalism has a lot of Creationlists but they’re not even close to the majority of the 4 billion Christians on the planet.
1. But the christian god knows things before they happen, meaning that he sees the future, humans don’t see the future, do we?
2. Mkay.
3. They believe in creationism, evolution would disprove that.
Let’s not do the full on attack on Christianity here. There’s a very broad spectrum of beliefs.
Even just on Creation/Evolution, Christians range from Young Earth Creationism with all species created essentially as is ~6000 years ago to God created the universe and things evolved from there. There are plenty of Christian evolutionary biologists.
Some strands of Christianity are horribly toxic for various reasons. Others are not and have done much good.
Nor of course are all religions Christian. And all the same arguments apply there, with variations.
3. We do? News to me. If you’re interested in what is actually going on in Christianity in the U.S., rather than what the loudest ranters say is going on, I suggest looking up http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist. Fred Clark grew up like Joyce and got out without falling into traps such as believing that creationism, of all the fluffy-headed innovations, is foundational to Christianity. He blogs a lot about the problems in his upbringing.
Here’s my view on this as a Christian.
1) Life is like a maze filled with multiple turns and multiple paths to the end, and God can see every possible path and possible decision that we could take.
2) Hell exist’s I’m just not the person to discuss hell with currently, something I need to research more.
3) This is the most ignorant statement in this list. Plenty of Christian scientist believe in evolution. And pretty much all scientist believe that before the “big bang” all the matter that was the cause of the big bang had to have been created before.
I’m Christian who believes in evolution, just not the evolution that says we evolved from a single cell organism.
Out of curiosity, why don’t you? There’s a lot of evidence for it, up to and including both homologies and intermediates between single cell and multi-cell creatures, and like you say it doesn’t conflict with most Christianity at all.
Partly cause I was born and raised in the South lol.
And though I honestly do love science evolution is one of those topics I just inadvertently avoided I guess because of the constant arguments and conspiracy for/against/around it. I do believe in the evolution of adaptation, animals adapting to better survive environment, I just haven’t taken the time to really dig into research about evolution yet.
While the Bible may give an oversimplified version of the beginning of time, it’s not exactly wrong.
Sure God didn’t “create” the earth and its inhabitants in seven days. But at the same time whose to say what a “day” is like to an omnipotent all powerful being.
And the creation cycle does follow the same path.
I just haven’t fully researched evolution yet to truly compare.
3) I don’t think that’s what most scientists would say about the big bang. At least not most scientists who study such things. Most would not use the word “created”, for example. If speaking strictly, they also wouldn’t use the word “before”, since both space and time began with the big bang, according to most theories. There was no “before”, since what we know as time didn’t exist until after.
I believe in macroevolution as well as the sort of microevolution you’re talking about, because it makes sense to me that since animals adapt to their environments and other factors through natural selection, that over long periods of times this leads to speciation and stuff.
But, if you’re not a biologist, I don’t really care if you don’t believe humans evolved over billions of years from ye olde one-celled organism. Like, I believe that such selection was guided by God as well as natural forces, because God is the one moving around the natural forces, but as long as you’re not going ‘no evolution happens at all’ I don’t really think it’s ignorant.
Augh, I feel like I’m wording this semi-offensively, sorry.
I mean, we can actually see speciation happening in modern species (the process through which subspecies evolve separately enough they are in the process of no longer fitting the biological definition of the same species). The biological definition of the same species is typically ‘can interbreed and have viable and fertile offspring’, aka offspring can survive AND have more babies.
But the fun part with this definition is not only is it basically useless for long extinct species because we can never throw two extinct dinosaurs into a bow-chicka-wow-wow chamber and see exactly how viable and fertile their offspring would be, but it’s not a case of either-or even with modern, extant species.
For example, say species A has 5 subspecies on a chain of 5 islands, subspecies 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Now say subspecies 1 can successfully interbreed with subspecies 1-4, and subspecies 5 can interbreed with subspecies 2-5, but all offspring of subspecies 1 and 5 are sterile.
Are 1 and 5 the same species? There is debate!
Biology is confusing and I love it and I thought you’d find that interesting.
Privilege in a nutshell. Joyce is feeling entitled according to John. Entitled to an opinion. Entitled to anger. Entitled to decide what is sinful. And she doesn’t understand how the world works.
John isn’t entitled. He just drives a muscle car (compensate much?) bought with other people’s money. He talks about his mission, but is mainly about making the world more like him. He can dismiss other’s opinions without much thought, because.. reasons basically. Nope, his sister’s trauma doesn’t matter, since it didn’t (and couldn’t) happen to him.
John is a missionary, but mainly for a gospel of success and privilege.
Until Jocelyne spoke up, everything John-John said was BEYOND ironic. Real life is also harder than it needs to be when you don’t get that talking the talk alone just isn’t enough.
Screw separate bathrooms for non-heteronormative people, can we just get separate bathrooms for the heartless instead? They’re the ones who are having all the problems with this issue.
Furthermore, I’d like to continue to point out that John’s senile and archaic views on Christianity are what make him a false Christian. Dude preaches like he wrote the Holy Book but acts like he’s the devil himself.
And how shocking a twist that’d be, it’s still speaks volumes that this is not a Christian man. This is a bigoted, unsanctioned, unapologetic asshole.
Oh, but he -is- Christian. I mean, it’s clear that he loves Jesus more than he loves his family members, which is just the way Jesus wanted it (Matthew 10, 37).
And personally, I suspect that if any supernatural entity wrote the bible, it’d be more likely to be the devil, considering the actual contents in it.
But he also isn’t Christian because he clearly doesn’t love others the same way (John 13:34)
Now im a believer but i don’t believe that the Bible was written “by God”. I do believe that it was written by man about God.
John is the absolute worst here. I had been hoping John was just having an asshole moment, but I hate this attitude John is showing.
It is my experience that many fundamentalists take the Bible out of its historical context for maximum dickery. Like an ‘eye for an eye’ there are way too many people who have merrily decided that is a prescriptive rather than prohibitive statement. There reasoning being that they don’t need all that history to understand God’s word . . .
Which usually becomes an excuse to ignore the context since it wouldn’t jive with their literalist interpretation. Or might expose them to uncomfortable new ideas.
This makes sense I guess.
I always learned that the historical context was pretty much key to understanding the Bible, and it really is. Most of the Old Testament is really just a historical document. Not gonna say it’s a perfect and accurate account of history, (pretty sure God didn’t create the world within a week) but to deny the history in the Old Testament, believer or not, is ignorant.
Yeah, unfortunately those people exist. A lot of the fucked up laws of the Old Testament were just cultural, but somehow, some people tooke it as biblical law I guess.
And don’t even get me started on Levitical law. Just. Don’t…
What I was getting at is that, in some ways, and sometimes, not always, ancient Biblical cultures could be more philosophically enlightened than a lot of American fundamentalists today.
Like, it would not be an alien idea to a Rabbi two thousand years ago that someone unable to attend to their physical needs would find it almost impossible to achieve spiritual enlightenment.
John we’re going to need to send your ass home in an ambulance. Jocelyne has inherited your car, your wife has left you, and your family gives not a single fuck. Simply because of how bad that sick burn was.
*Explodes from rage*
“skimming” the funds. disgusting! i want to spit in his face. What other “perks” did he also get? I get very angry when people do that. misusing people’s charity. *spits John in his face and hope for it is acid kind*
Such a hypocritcal bastard.. and isn’t this kind illegal too?
Johnathan, not Josh – Josh is the unmet Brown that we pretty much know nothing about. But the rest of the family seems to have cut ties with him, so I have high hopes for the lad.
Damn it, I’m starting to get my Browns mixed up, why did they all have to start with a “J.” Falling Star is sort of right, Josh is Jocelyne’s… previous identity? alter ego? I don’t know the correct term. Basically, who everyone thinks she is. The unmet Brown is Jordan.
Definitely not “alter ego”, though I can see why you’d think that; in the sense that Jocelyne still has to pretend to be Joshua when around family.
“Dead name” is the term I’ve seen used the most (though admittedly that hasn’t been a lot). As such, it is considered polite to (when you know their real name) never use the dead name*. So best stick with Jocelyne.
*Unless they’re with people that they still need to hide from.
Yes, that’s what I was going for with “alter ego,” as in “her Josh identity isn’t fully gone yet, because she still uses it for, at least, her family.”
I’ve just been using Jocelyne or Joss; the whole “Josh” thing just came up due to Jen’s (what can I only assume was a) typo.
I merely used the name ‘Josh’ so that no confusion would happen if I just threw the name ‘Jocelyne’ in there without explanation. I meant no disrespect to Jocelyn herself.
If you are still checking out this comment tree: In the strip after this, Cerberus is suggesting “zombie name” for the name that a trans person considers dead, but still has to use in one or more settings (whether it’s when dealing with bureaucracy, bigoted family, or whatever makes them need to hide their true selves).
As emperor of the internet, I immediately approved of said suggestion, and it is now official.
Still, never use a person’s zombie name unless they’re also currently having to use it.
{insert ‘all aboard the Rage Train’ pic here}
Self-righteous prick. In real life, someone like that would be wearing an expression that’s a cross between derision and disgust, and I’d want to punch them in the face for it. Grrrr…
So, uh, quick question for the religious scholars: Jesus was strong enough to flip a bunch of tables, but can he flip a 200X Ford Mustang? This is vital to my AU fic.
Jesus knows a bunch of commercial fishermen who made a living hauling nets by hand back in the day. Also two of them are nicknamed the Sons of Thunder and another guy is known as The Rock. I think you’re covered.
Is John a seminary student? Some require missionary work, and the Mustang could have been a “signing bonus” to get him to preach locally for a few years. It would explain a lot about his attitude and his dismissal of the danger that Fundie put everyone in. If he adheres to the local fundamentalist dogma, then he would see Fundie’s actions as justified. In his mind, Fundie’s a hero. After all, he would have gladly died for his daughter. Becky, being a mere female (and therefore chattel) committed a grievous sin by defying him. A sin John sees his sister committing, and condoning.
Since he would be in his mid-late 30s, since he’s something like a decade older than Jocelyne (who herself is probably around 5 years older than Joyce), and certainly isn’t a recent convert, seminary seems rather unlikely.
Mmm I don’t think it would be unusual for someone 30-35 (as Willis has indicated John’s age to be on the tumblr) to be in Seminary, or at least in a position where they haven’t been fully ordained yet. It’s about right for the people I know who went to seminary. And it’s not like other career paths where you go straight to seminary out of college or high school. It’s not unusual to have persons who get the call later in life.
That is the opposite of my experience…except for late convert, seminary is a direct path from other schooling. But I was raised Catholic…it might be a different culture among fundies.
As a Christian myself, this is the exact kind of attitude I hate to see in other so called Christians. Did God not call us to love everyone including our “enemies”? (Matthew 5:43-48)
It sickens and saddens me to know that Christians out there act like this out there. I guess I’ve been lucky enough to have gone to a good church that didn’t shun people for their past.
John’s attitude is the reason that Christianity is the leading cause of atheism. People who claim God with their words yet act completely opposite.
I mean, I do my best to love others and treat others with respect. I’m certainly not perfect but I’d like to believe I do my best to treat others the way Jesus did, with love and compassion.
This attitude of John’s is not only destructive to non-believers by puahing them away, it’s destructive to himself and every other person who claims to be Christian.
A lot of American Christian fundamentalism is based in Calvinism, aka the idea that everyone’s actions and life are already pre-determined. This allows people to think that they’re the ‘Chosen Ones’ who live Good, Faithful lives and will always go to heaven, and meanwhile all those Dirty Sinners are destined to just keep being Dirty Sinners.
It’s a toxic, horrible mindset and not one I think Jesus would approve of, at all.
Let’s just not even get started on Calvinism. I do not agree with it at all. The Bible doesn’t agree with it, though I’m sure you know this as well.
I lean more towards Arminianism, though I would not call myself such.
I dunno what school I’d say I lean towards. The school of ‘it’s okay to be gay and also I just want to help people and support the poor and oppressed and be charitable’ I suppose.
Also adding that, yeah, as a lesbian Christian with a lot of queer, non-christian, and athiest friends, this storyline is hitting really closely. I’m fortunate my parents are accepting and loving.
Blanket reminder to Christians posting on this thread that we can’t actually say that a self-identified Christian isn’t Christian unless they explicitly deny bedrock doctrine, by which I mean something about as old as the Apostles’ Creed. Doesn’t mean we can’t call out hypocrisy, greed, selfishness, cruelty, good old beams in the eye, and general jackassery though.
Also have to agree with this. I certainly a think a lot of mainstream Christianity isn’t very Christ-like, but that doesn’t mean the people involved aren’t genuine Christians, just that they’re not… very good at interpreting the bible? IDK.
To be fair, denying other Christians are Christians is one of the most cherished and time-honored past-times of the faith. It’s like, literally, something which dates back to Peter and Paul hating each other in that loving Christ-like way.
But “No, the ear can’t tell the eye that they’re not part of the body” is just as old. As is Paul hearing that somebody is calling themselves a Paulian Christian (as opposed to all those ignorant and bad non-Paulian Christians) and going “WUT NO.”
Genuine Christians? Maybe. Genuine assholes? Definitely. It’s not okay to give them a pass as just being ‘bad at interpreting the Bible.’ That doesn’t give them carte blanche to be prickmuffins.
Going off my comment a little downthread, it isn’t so much Bible interpretation as looking at certain passages and making up reasons why they don’t really apply to us. Which is a tradition that started probably, oh, AD 34 or so.
Part of Christian humility, I think, is to realize that no matter how hard we try not to do this, we still do it anyway. And part of the innovations that Fred Clark sarcastically calls Real True Christianity–the Christian-flavored American subculture he was raised in, like Joyce–is to pretend that we never, never do. RTC preachers say that their interpretation is simply the obvious meaning of the text and anybody who argues with it is not only wrong, but being wrong on purpose.
Yeah. And I think you can also tie that with Calvinism’s idea that some people are just destined to be saved no matter what but the number is limited, so because people have decided obviously they are the ones that are going to be saved, that they are doing the Right Thing, because otherwise they wouldn’t be the Chosen Ones who are Saved, and…
God, it’s such self-recursive headachey bad logic.
Exactly. It’s all interpretation, but when you start pretending that your interpretation isn’t actually interpretation, you dive down the rabbit hole.
Because it is interpretation. It’s just the interpretation you’ve been taught since you first saw the text. No one ever comes to the Bible without a ton of preconceptions already built in.
That’s why the doctrines of divinely dictated Scripture* and Biblical literalism** are so poisonous. Not to mention every nutty innovation, from Creationism to the End Times Checklist, that is “proven” by the “obvious” meaning of a bunch of verses snipped out of context and patchworked together.
*Prophecies? Sure. Jesus’ words? Of course. But priestly commentaries on (now lost) secular historical books, or that one passage in Paul’s letters where he carefully specifies which of his suggestions are just his opinion and which are divinely inspired? Humans thought those up. And humans wrote it all down. And we’re not infallible.
**”Clap your hands, you hills.” Say what? And what about the passage where God portrays Himself as a cuckolded husband ranting about his wife (Israel) going off with some jerk just because he’s hung like a donkey? Biblical literalists keep using that word. It does not mean what they think it means.
Man, I feel increasingly bad for Willis the more we read of Joyce’s storyline. To grow up in an environment where your family believes that being threatened with a gun by your best friend’s dad isn’t traumatic? Or that they only pretend it’s traumatic because they feel entitled? I grew up in a religious family, but never had to deal with such insanely inhuman extremism.
I feel you here. And Willis. And Joyce.
Also grew up in a religious home but also not so extreme. Now I still hold on to my faith however I’m glad I’ve learned that I don’t have to be this perfect person who has it all figured out, because Lord know I ain’t
To be fair I haven’t met many Catholics, but I don’t agree with a lot of their tenents of belief. Like purgatory, or having to do a penance (I think that’s the right word for it) to receive gods forgiveness.
Catholics are…interesting…for lack of a better word. I know of good Catholics, and I know of not so good Catholics.
You could say Protestants have to do a penance, too. In order to receive god’s forgiveness, they must acknowledge that their nature is sinful and that Christ alone can redeem them. It’s not _called_ penance, but it’s a fee paid all the same.
I don’t know if I would say that. The idea is similar I guess, but I don’t think I’d call acknowledgement of sin the same as a penance. Penance requires an action be done before forgiveness can be received, whereas for Protestants forgiveness is already received, one just has to ask.
I can see why they would be considered the same, however in essence they are different.
Yeah, I think 99% of protestants would object to being compared to purgatory– they’d say they don’t believe that one can merit heaven, and purgatory seems to be a kind of merit.
Of course Catholics (and I am one), would say that Purgatory is a necessary consequence of definitions of heaven and hell.
But anyway, yeah, I’m glad even the most extreme human beings I’ve ever met are still a far cry from the Joyce family.
I am well well aware that fundies of this nature and willful blindness do exist and are a very real thing…I’m just glad I haven’t met any personally. Which is surprising given where I live. But I’m real glad I haven’t. I don’t think I could stand them. “Consequences” do not include a nutjob threatening people with a gun. That’s all on the nutjob not on Becky, Joyce or any of their actions at all. It’s not justifiable in any logical way.
How sheltered do you have to keep yourself as an adult to not see all of the glaring contradictions to the shit you were taught as a kid?
Like I get not seeing anything but Trendy sexuality when you’re a kid and you’re kept from history books and the mainstream media but seriously when you’re an adult you kind of have to make the intentional decision to avoid anything that might challenge your beliefs. IE Joyce she could have avoided classes and a school that would challenge her beliefs but she didn’t.
I will say that American Christianity is very good at “preparing” their faithful youth for the “persecution” they will receive in college and how “Satan has his hands in the liberal teaching” aka you might meet socially accepted gays and they’re Real People (but you should try and convert them or you’re a bad person).
A lot of people cling to those teachings despite being in an environment that is blatant proof that those teachings are complete horseshit.
White American Christian church is great at this thing called brainwashing fixed on the crux of threat of hell and damnation.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say the teachings are complete horseshit. I would say that a lot of “biblical teachers” of the past century have gone about teaching the Bible the wrong way. Luckily, I think hellfire and brimstone preachers are starting to become a thing of the past now.
For me personally, I still held onto my belief after starting college, except Instead of clinging tighter to more destructive ideals, I molded them around the world I was experiencing into what I believed was a more Christ-like view.
What I find surprising and disgusting about people like John and his mom is how they basically ignore anything Jesus said in for a set of values and prejudices that have nothing to do with the Bible.
I mean, 99 % of what Jesus said could be summarized as “don’t be a asshole and help people in need”, but fundies like John think that being a Christian means hating on everybody who isn’t exactly like them and trying to stop governmental policies that help the poor and unfortunate.
Another example: Old Testament allowed marriages to be repudiated and forbade homosexuality. Jesus didn’t say a thing about homosexuality at all, but he explicitly forbade divorcees to remarry (I do not agree with him, but the point is, he did it). Fundies remarry after divorce, but they bash on homosexuality, because Old Testament seem to be more important that the New Testament to them.
For all the talk and Bible quotes, religions are far more just inherited sets of beliefs and behaviors with some textual justifications tacked. Religions are great ways to codify and maintain mores and values over generations.
Fundamentalist religions are particularly troublesome, since they pretend to be relying on the raw text, not on interpretation of it, it’s very hard to challenge the interpretations they are making.
Meant to lead up to:
What the actual text says doesn’t matter nearly so much as what they were taught it says. Fighting fundies with Bible quotes is usually a waste of time.
I guess I’ve just been lucky enough to not encounter fundies.
I think part of the reason Christianity has fallen within the last century is because it has been focused on being a religion, instead of being a relationship with God.
What I mean by that is that the religion aspect focuses too much on the biblical “laws”, which yes are still important, but should not be the focus.
We have become so focused on “don’t do this or you’ll burn for eternity” when instead we be showing love, not trying to invoke fear.
As opposed to when? “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”?
The long centuries when the Catholic Church ruled the West as the successor to Rome?
I’m not even sure that Christianity really has fallen within the last century, depending on exactly what you mean by that.
Fundamentalism arose in the 19th and 20th centuries. Say what you want about Catholicism, but at least it didn’t flat out reject all modernism or progressivism.
And I disagree that Bible verses are a waste of time. Sure, they believe what they are told. But they also think that what they are told is the only way to read the Bible. So showing that there are other ways is often what ultimately gets through to those who do leave.
Remember, Joyce is autobiographical. And how was she first convinced about homosexuality? By reading stuff where people showed using scripture that it wasn’t necessarily sinful.
Honestly part of me completely disassociate’s Catholicism from Christianity as Catholicism as many tenents in place that have given its church and its leaders unnecessary powers, both in the past and now.
That being said I associate Christianity with the Protestant Reformation. I’m not going to say it was perfect but Martin Luther was right.
The 20th century was a breeding ground for hellfire and brimstone preachers and a terrible way of preaching the Bible and conversion. Fear instead of love. Punishment instead of grace. Pastors were so desperate to convert that they ended up ostracizing their target. And now pastors of this century have to deal with problems their predecessors caused. Some have dealt with it appropriately some have not.
I understand a lot of Protestants feel that way, but Catholics are a slight majority of the world’s Christians. And were an even larger majority for most of Christian history. It’s really hard to talk about Christianity, when you exclude most of the people who’ve called themselves Christians.
It’s perfectly fine to criticize the history or doctrine of other denominations, but to exclude them entirely is sketchy.
If you want to talk about Protestants, there’s a perfectly good term for that – Protestant. If you want to narrow it down farther and exclude some of them, there are categories within Protestant. But don’t talk about Christians and mean something else. Especially not if you want people to understand you.
I don’t mean to say I exclude them in anyway. I recognize that Catholics make up the majority of Christian history. My second argument more stems from the semantics of the etymology of the word “Chiristian”.
That said i will also say that i dont believe the catholic church has done so great the last century either.
My main point i guess was that the teachings of this 20th century was not a great time for Christian history really.
Luther was an Agustinian monk who was educated by Catholic teachers, read a Catholic Bible compiled by the Catholic Pope Damasus I in 382 CE (there were some books who were left out) and translated from Greek to Latin by Saint Jerome on Pope Damasus’s orders.
Luther studied Theology in the Catholic University of Wittenberg, and his studies were based on the work of the theologians of the Catholic University of Paris, which in turn was based on the work of the Fathers of the Church and on Greek Phylosophy.
Everything he knew and learnt, had been handed down to him by the Catholic Church. He didn’t have any information about the older Church or Jerusalem, headed by James and Judah, brothers of Jesus. He wasn’t an archeologist or anthropologist. All he did, he built upon what the Catholic Church had allowed to be transmitted to him.
If the Catholic Church isn’t Christian, then Protestants aren’t Christian either.
About the excesive power of the leaders of the Catholic Church… The Pope wasn’t considered infallible until 1870, in a desperate attempt from the Vatican to curve down the spread of Liberalism. And politically speaking, Emperor Charles was waging war against the Pope at the same time he fought the Protestants in Germany. The problem wasn’t Luther’s refusal to obey the Pope, many Catholics have opposed Popes both doctrinally and politically along History; the problem was his refusal to accept the judgement of the Universal Councils (since he believed that everybody should study the Bible by themselves without following the directon of others), meaning that even if everybody else came to an agreement, he would still preach his interpretation of the Bible.
Many of the stuff Protestants believe the Reformation was about are wrong. Right before Luther the dominant form of Catholicism in the most important European Courts was the Christian Humanism of Erasmus of Rotterdam, which refused indulgencies, the excesses of the cult of Saints, superstitions and the corruption of the ecclesial hierarchy. The kings of France and England, the Emperor Charles of Germany and Spain, and even the freaking Spanish High Inquisitor Alonso Manrique were enthusiastic Erasmists, and wanted to implement reforms.
The problem was, not even Erasmus could accept Luther’s position that only Faith did matter for Salvation. The Catholics believed that your actions during your lifetime had a weight with regards to what happened afterwards. That breach was irreconcilable. And as I said, an agreement was impossible since Luther didn’t believe that the Councils had the power to tell anybody what to believe.
And true religious freedom wasn’t impossible because of how interwined were religion and politics. Luther believed in the separation of secular power and the Church, which is nice, that that means that he thought that the economical and administrative structure of the Church had to be dissassembled and taken by the secular power, which was a juicy prize for the German princes, and put him at odds with the regular Orders and the Bishops (except a few ones who managed to seize power as secular princes).
So every prince backed their favoured one (Catholic, Lutheran and later Anabaptists) and forbade any other to be practiced in their domains, meant war.
Look I’m not trying to say Catholics aren’t Christian. I’ve just unintentionally disassociated partly with Catholicism for some reason. I don’t discount them from Christian history…but I have not worded previous statements well. Learning a bit about Martin Luther though.
I guess I need to re word a lot of previous statements lol.
A lot of thoughts have not come out the way I meant them too XD
Oooohhh…. was this a specific “Gospel for Asia” burn? Because if it is, I love you even more Willis. In a totally platonic non-trendy way, notthathtere’sanythingwrongwiththat.
How long ago was this comic written? The first I heard about the GfA thing was in February. (Though, of course, Willis may have had his suspicions before that.)
Two days from now, Jocelyne is in some sort of building, seemingly talking to someone with an awkward smile. I doubt it’s a car, the area of light from the windows is too large.
Either Jocelyne leaves John and goes back to Joyce and Becky to apologize for his behaviour, or we’ll be jumping to a new scene at Jocelyne’s house. The former sounds more likely to me.
I doubt it. Previous reports say that Joss lives about two hours drive away. I would expect that John picked her up on the way to town from wherever he lives, which is presumably further away.
I expect Jocelyne to tell John that she has decided to spend the night at her parents’ home and have Hank drop her off tomorrow.
Background of the preview panel is the same gold and brown color scheme as inside the restaurant, so my money is on Joss heading back to Joyce and Becky.
See, I’m reading it as the opposite. She’s waited until the situation is mostly defused, and completely refraining from fighting back with anything remotely incriminating. John can get mad at her, certainly, but it’ll be a normal sibling fight over a disagreement, not an “I’m going to pass intel along to Mom that will leave you without a family.”
I like to think I’m not a particularly violent or spiteful human being.
But man, I really, deeply, sincerely hope someone lays the See You Next Tuesday that is John Brown right the fuck out, like some fine teak decking. If anyone has it coming, it’s him.
Progression is, thus far:
Mild jerk- wants ‘family only’, but there may be other reasons from that.
Somewhat jerky- MIGHT be overly annoyed at Nazi jokes.
Pretty dang jerky- OK, you might be able to pin this on Carol somehow.
Chauvinistic Assclown- Yep, no excuse for this reaction to Joyce expressing anger.
Chauvinistic, Entitled, Complains-Like-A-Middle-Aged-Right-Winger-Full-Bore Asshole- Today.
The scary thing is that getting a mustang from your church is comparatively innocuous. Really rich televangelists routinely buy private jets, ostensibly for “missionary work,” not to mention the mansions that count as “parsonages.”
It just dawns on me that this is probably one of those things that Joss has wanted to say for a while, but kept her mouth shut to avoid “causing problems.”
And I do wonder if John’s response will be that, if she doesn’t appreciate it, then she can just stay there. It’d suck if Joss didn’t choose to stay behind, but it would be perfectly in character for John.
I hope I’m just projecting here, based on my own experiences, but Johns body language suggests that he might be a bully-type
He definitely wouldn’t try anything with anyone even close to his own size but his little brother (in his eyes) I wouldn’t put it past him to shove him round a bit
Right now, this moment is when Joss needs to ‘come out’ to John, then tell him to stuff his condesention up his ass, go back inside and ‘high-five’ Joyce for standing up to him.
Well, looks like you guys were right, and I was wrong. I wanted to believe that John could have just been rude and insensitive, but everything you guys said about his inner thoughts was surprisingly 100% correct. I’m not sure how you guys picked up on all that subtext so accurately. Anyway, now John’s past my benefit of the doubt.
I’ve been lucky enough not to have to deal with guys like him, so I only picked it up by being an intensely cynical bastard. Listening to the people that has had to deal with people like him also helped.
And there’s nothing wrong with wanting to believe that he could’ve been better than he turned out. I’m sure most of us were hoping for that.
I think the main reason you didn’t pick it up is because all those little clues is… How shall I put it? Let’s liken it to the infamous water drop torture. You know, the one where all they do is continuously dripping a drop of water on someone’s forehead. One drop is nothing. Nor is two drops. But keep it up for an hour, and suddenly it turns devastatingly cruel. But you have to have experienced it to really know how cruel it is (please don’t experience it). And if you have experienced it, you will also cringe when you see it happen to someone else -at the very first drop-. You don’t have to wait long to understand what the end result is going to be.
Until the last couple of days, what John’s been doing is basically the verbal version of this, commonly known as micro-aggression. One comment is, in itself, hardly anything. But anyone who’s ever been on the receiving end knows that it doesn’t end in that one comment. Another will come, and another, and another, and another… And all of a sudden it’s becoming completely unbearable.
That’s really how I can best describe what’s going on up until the last couple of days, where John stopped with the drops and basically changed tactics to waterboarding instead.
I mean, I guess it’s more like Willis is. He really wants to send messages he believes in with this comic. Part of that could come down as far as setting his comic up to generate these kinds of responses in the chat and display a dialogue.
Ugh. I hate guys like John. My stupid cousin is just like this and
I disowned him. People like that suck and make the world a suckier place. Stupid fundies!
He reminds me of my oldest brother. He left home when I was young, so I never had a chance to get to know him because he never came to visit, nor did he make any effort to stay in contact with me and my little brother. He has a close relationship with my other two older brothers though, so when I’m at one of their functions I’ll run into the oldest and he has this weird notion that he can still be condescending and “big brother”-y towards me while maintaining a dismissive attitude and refusing to see me as a person. While I understand the older brother complex, he never earned his. I remember after he left I tried to get into contact with him on an MMO we both loved playing but he blocked me and otherwise refused to interact with me… he’s been married twice. My older brothers went but my mom and I never even knew until a few months after the fact.
I think the only difference between mine and this guy is that this guy reaches out to talk to Joyce, mine only acknowledges me when we’re forced to be in the same room together.
I was ten when he left, so I dont feel like I did anything that would have driven him away from me. Man.That shit hurts.
I’m gonna pretend I’m Dear Abby for a moment here. Mlle Blackfox, some people live their lives as though they only have so many seats at the table for people labeled “Family,” and somewhere along the line the decide that they don’t need anyone else. These people hurt others because they simply don’t care. It is certainly not your fault. Your brother missed out on a special relationship.
Instead, find the people in your life who have a table that’s full and still welcome you in. They will grab you a plate, pull the lawn chair in the porch and hand you a beer while telling you to fill your plate. They’ll introduce you to their weird ass family, and you’ll fit right in because they were welcomed the way you were once and want to pass that on. This is the family that will be there for you through thick and thin. Sometimes they’re blood, sometimes they’re not, but they love you for who you are just the same.
I do so hope that Hank will use his patriarchal authority for a good cause: to put John in his place, explain in detail why and how he’s utterly fucking superwrong, and make him apologize to Becky and Joyce. And then let Joyce punch him.
I don’t have the time or energy to read the comments, but I postdict (like predict, except about stuff that’s already happened) a fair amount of people upset that Willis is misrepresenting christians, a handful of people proclaiming that all of this is either Joyce’s or Becky’s fault, a lone nutter proclaiming that it’s Carla’s fault, and one or two clueless asshats still trying to defend John.
Actually, it’s remarkably sane today.
Very little on any of those fronts.
One or two sort of still defending him. Quite a few saying we couldn’t know until now and if wasn’t fair jumping to conclusions. But mostly agreement that John’s an ass and they’d just been holding out hope because they wanted him to be different.
Considering the stuff I saw deleted before, though, it’s possible that it was still there at some point. Or that those people weren’t allowed to post anymore.
Cool, seeing a comic without so many comments that it cause my Firefox to freeze up for a bit. This comments system doesn’t seem to scale well to 700+ comments, let alone 1000+
It doesn’t freeze up for me, though it takes a moment to load them all. But there’s no way I know of to find new comments or even replies to mine.
That’s annoying.
ctrl-f for your name for the latter. (I’ve been doing that to find replies to me on this page, since looking for my avatar is giving me false positives.)
The former… well, it can be accomplished with ctrl-f, but it would be massively tedious. >_>
Well, my Firefox is a bit messed up for some reason, anyways. I think that, when a page has delays, it exacerbates them. And it’s too much for me right now to try and track down the problem.
Still, that delay is there, even in Chrome. The main thing I wish is that, when you replied, it would just put your comment in using JavaScript.
Basically, it needs to borrow however Reddit does it.
Is the part of John Brown played by Darren Doane (director/co-star of Kirk Cameron’s Saving Christmas), who used the oh-so-tasteful “LGBTQYSTD”?
They certainly have matching douchebeards.
And then of course this has been making the rounds during this whole arc. Oddly enough this guy looks like an older version of John. COINCIDENCE I THINK NOT
Were we supposed to know that John had access to tithing funds somehow already? Like is he or someone in his family in a position to be managing their church’s finances? This felt really left-field to me.
Wait, when John was getting mad at Becky about the social security number thing, maybe he was actually just offended that she wasn’t very good at stealing money from people. “NO THAT ISN’T HOW YOU FRAUD YOU’RE BRINGING SHAME TO THE ENTIRE PROFESSION”.
Okay I was with John up to this point, but he’s just a douchebag now. Seriously, no mention of the traumatic events Joyce has gone through at all? And driving away in a new Mustang while commenting on how hard life is? Come on. Hopefully he’ll wise up later on, but with how this comic portrays conservative Christians I severely doubt it.
Also, what is with this comic and portraying any Christian who’s even slightly conservative as an unrepentant asshole? It can’t just be me noticing this. WE’RE NOT ALL LIKE THIS.
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See, this is why *I* only tithe to Willis and Spike Trotman! If either of THEM get a free GT, they’ve EARNED IT
(sensing Joss will seek a new ride home in 3, 2, 1…)
anyway, India’s right next to Indiana, so YEAH???
[/sarcasm]
[/unless you count the dictionary]
what kinda dictionaries are you reading? proper nouns ‘n what not
besides Urban Dictionary? well
“what kinda dictionaries are you reading? proper nouns ‘n what not”
The New Century Dictionary (1946 edition) has an index of geographical names at the end so India and Indiana do indeed appear next to each other in that dictionary. Page 2647, I think.
I think I love you.
So what am I so afraid of?
*applause*
Sea cucumbers?
Cuttlefish! I saw a documentary. It was terrifying.
…I actually am afraid of cuttlefish. (I am not, however, Klaw.)
True facts about the Cuttlefish?
Ooh, someone’s dating themselves with THAT reference!
Oi! Take that back! I haven’t dated myself for years! I have a girlfriend who takes care of that, now. >_>
She dates herself for you?
If we’re in the mood for that, sure. >_>
What reference are you guys making? I am so confused. T^T
I’m afraid that I’m not sure of
A love there is no cure for
I think I love you
Something something in French*
Though it worries me to say
I’ve never felt this way
Heyyyyyyy
*elevator ding*
(*not the actual line here, in-joke substitute for the part I can’t remember w/o looking it up)
Everything.
So did you know that from memory or did you look it up
The out of date college dictionary I read cover to cover for no good reason when I was about ten had proper nouns, a list of prefixes and suffixes, four alphabets and a whole page about semicolons. I didn’t really take the last one to heart, but that’s beside the point.
Umm, most dictionaries I’ve seen include proper nouns. Not even in a separate section, just right along with the rest of the words.
all the dictionaries i read at school had all the rude words underlined until i got to secondary school, then they were highlighted in pink or bright yellow
You think Indiana’s next to India? Na, man.
Well, it’s close enough that it could be in the adjacent column or the opposite page.
…. Wait.
…. Wouldn’t “Indian” be between the two?
Not when geographical names appear in a separate index.
Okay, now I’m sure.
At least you can get away with saying “India” is IN “Indiana”.
Dunno, but India is in Texas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India,_Texas
waitWHOA it’s like
Christian is Christi with “an”
Indiana is India with “an” (Indi – AN – a)
Johann is John with “an”
MIND BLOWN
[/sarcasm]
[[gonna cut back on sugar and take a nap now]]
Daw…
What you did there, I see it.
Makes me think of the old cartoon with Columbus planting his flag in the ice and insisting that it was “Northern India”.
India? Na.
she coulda tried that in front of joyce, but still: zing!
if only there were a more rebellious ride for her to catch…
No, she couldn’t have. As much as I love Jocelyne, she is still a propagator of the infallible patriarchy. It’s how she was raised, not her fault, and she can try to break it, but for now she has shown me she is more or less part of it.
Literally everyone is raised to be a propagator of patriarchy. Everyone. The implication that Jocelyne does so more than Joyce does (who just yesterday was laying down concepts of a woman’s role in marriage that are patriarchal to the core, and bucked Dorothy’s suggestion that it could be otherwise) by lieu of having been assigned a male gender at birth is kinda gross? Unless you meant something else by this and I’m misreading you, but that’s sort of the implication I’m getting. Sorry in advance if I’m misinterpreting.
Oh, no, sorry. My fault, I should have been clearer, and you’re right, Joyce is terrible with that stuff, obviously (she’s growing but not great). At least she’s trying (she had to have a lesbian best friend and be held up for it to happen), I don’t see any of that from Jocelyne until now.
It is about gender, but not what Jocelyne was assigned at birth. I meant that there is no way she could’ve stood up to her brother because as a woman that would help further deconstruct it as Joyce was doing. Plus she’s been uber passive at all points before this, in part due to hiding sure, but you can’t tell me none of it is due to this. She didn’t help her sister because she’s scared and “it isn’t her place, she isn’t allowed to disagree.” She hid behind her menu, knowing full well her sister is right.
If any of this came across as close-minded or misinformed, I apologize. and please inform me where I’m wrong or if I made fallacies.
I don’t agree at all that there was “no way she could’ve”, because she is absolutely capable. I’m not even going to try to respond to the bit about “because as a woman that would help further deconstruct it as Joyce was doing,” because to be frank, I don’t understand what you meant by it at all.
I think Jocelyne is scared. But she’s not scared that it isn’t her place. She’s scared about what will happen if she begins to fight back against her family. She is stuck in an incredibly toxic situation. I’m not sure what she has in terms of resources for getting away from them, her own money, etc., but regardless of whether she could cut off ties with them or not, it’s a really hard situation that she’s in. As she once said to Ethan, she’s afraid she’ll say some things she can’t ever take back. Of course, in this strip, it seems like she may finally have had enough.
“She hid behind her menu, knowing full well her sister is right.” This makes it sound like she was ashamed or felt at fault because of what Joyce was saying, and I don’t think that’s the case. I think she hid because, as I said before, she is worried about what will happen when conflict breaks out. She tried to divert the conversation to protect Joyce and Becky and to avoid the conflict, but I don’t think she in any way wants to silence what they have to say.
Your opinion definitely makes more sense, and helps me understand why so many are mad at me. You are totally right, and now I see where I was making connections that aren’t strong at all frankly. I do get how it should be read as her trying to avoid conflict until now. That has just never been my strong suit, as you can tell with this thread.
I really appreciate you saying this! It’s always nice to have a positive experience with comments section discussions, haha.
This is how debates should be. It’s nice to see people explaining themselves without resorting to thinly veiled attacks and actually listening to responses rather than just getting defensive.
The sad thing is how often things go the other way instead
I’m glad I decided to read this.
I just don’t understand what you’re getting at. Yes, it would be completely out of character for Joss right now to have said this in front of Joyce. Yes, it would have been a bad idea for her to do it, given how John was acting, since at least part of what John was doing was trying to save face.
Yeah, maybe she has internalized some of the female gender roles of being passive, maybe even pursuing them because she’s female and that’s how women are “supposed” to act. And, yeah, she probably was raised to believe in the whole familial hierarchy where the bigger brother (as long as he’s a Christian) is an authority.
But it seems a bit simplistic to put it down to upholding the patriarchy. Especially when that’s a common refrain of the anti-trans feminists.
(They think trans people are upholding the patriarchy by claiming to have an innate gender.)
Are the feminist that oppose trans people because of the concept of innate gender? I always read the argument as “trans people were encourage to transition by (certain parts of) society because if they transition, they don’t threaten the traditional gender roles.” An either conform or transition- approach by society which puts more pressure on women who do stuff traditionally not supposed to be done by women.
Nothing to be sorry for! Language is strange and imperfect, it’s friggin’ difficult trying to get the full scope of thought across and misunderstandings spring from that. If anything I’m sorry for drawing an incorrect conclusion!
Uh…not really…Trans women are just as much victims of the patriarchy as cis women, even if they are still in the closet.
It’s true! women are women are women regardless if they’re cis or not. Trans women get an even shorter end of the stick than cis women do because transmisogyny is like regular misogyny… but super-charged.
Transmisogyny is, like, double-ply.
Without being NEARLY so comfortable on the ol’ tushie as say, Charmin.
I don’t get why you’re saying this. Yes, we’re probably all propagators of the patriarchy to a degree, so you’re right in that sense. But why on earth are you zeroing in on Jocelyne? She is a member of a demographic that suffers the worst from the patriarchy and from the gender binary itself.
So why didn’t Jocelyne say this in the restaurant? She was afraid. And if that’s true, why is she saying it now? Because people aren’t automatons that say exactly the right thing at any given moment. It’s hard to make the right decision in a tense moment. It’s hardly ever done by anyone, imo. It’s really, really difficult.
Okay, Wheelpath. You have me curious here. Exactly *how* is Jocelyne a propagator of the infallible patriarchy?
Excuse me? Are you forgetting that she is trans existing in a trans-unfriendly space? Did you know trans people are often murdered in these spaces? Let me give an incredible “fuck you” for accusing Joss of being a part of something that would literally murder her if she went up against it.
Holy shit you’re right. I did definitely deserve that, I hope what I said explains my view for everyone else, but actually yeah.
I was just too hopeful in thinking maybe they could be like Joyce, and once someone close has these issues with oppression they could change, but they aren’t…
Sorry
I do think the fact she’s being forced to be silent instead of supporting Becky is something like a special torture for Josie. She wants to help and be supportive but it could very well be physically dangerous. Not to mention financially if they’re struggling. Which makes it no less like a punch in the gut.
Jocelyne is /likely/ pretty appraised on this stuff seeing as she’s young and in the modern era (and Gay males still have pride of place in queer networks, so what Becky’s gone through shouldn’t be unheard of for her). She’s scared because she has cause to be.
Damn right. Hell, I’ve almost died for being a transwoman. Her fears are not unfounded.
Oh yeah, very much ditto on that. Including the almost dying part. Jocelyne will have a tough fucking road ahead and that’s a major part of why she’s scared. The other part is that she is incensed by it all, but she knows if she gives in to that anger she risks outting herself and that’s the ballgame.
Hell, I’d say it’s guaranteed that she’s stewing in anger all the time, especially with family. When you’re a girl, but everyone thinks you’re a boy and thus you’ll fully agree with their ultra toxic masculinity and sexist views of women, it’s hard not to be.
It’s like having a front row seat to the partiarchy’s worst showing.
It helps to be heavily armed.
It really doesn’t ‘help to be heavily armed’. Then you’re an extremist and it’s okay to kill you anyway. And you kinda have to sleep, and aren’t omniscient besides.
quarktime-
Sadly, even if that helped, it would not help us:
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/11196-no-justice-when-women-fight-back
Well said.
….
so you’re saying that, on pain of death, she’s upholding a part of the patriarchy?
Look, part of the point of saying things like “EVERYONE is sexist” or “Everyone is racist” is that, you know, we actually mean them, rather than using them as a shibboleth. Jocelyne is both victim and inadvertent, unwilling supporter. It /is/ fucked up to go after her more for it than the gal we know is way more gung ho on supporting patriarchy as a rule, but she DID just allow patriarchy to continue by inaction. I’m not going to get MAD about it, because yeah, even without the fear of death (Which is completely a legit fear for her), she’s still ultimately afraid (of a dozen other terrible things), but that doesn’t change that Joyce just suffered directly from patriarchy, and Jocelyne didn’t try to stop it.
That’s ridiculous logic and I don’t agree with you.
Whether you agree or disagree, whether patriarchy hurts or helps you, makes no fucking difference. Did you support it through your action, or your inaction? If so, what you did is sexist. If that hurts you, well, it’s kind of immaterial to that question. “Is what you did something I should be angry with you about” is not actually the same question as “Is what you did sexist”
I really, really, REALLY don’t need any fucking Brave Defenders who will deny my agency, or people who want to strip the complexities of life away. These things are hard and life sucks. Sometimes you don’t get a good choice – you just have to choose shitty options. Jocelyne’s choices suck – let John abuse the patriarchy to hurt Joyce, or open herself up to abuse for opposing him publicly. I *respect* her decision, but I’m not going to deny what it did.
Yo…getting awfully close to TERF nonsense here, Wheelpath…might want to cool it with the “trans women are tools of the patriarchy” bullcrap.
Considering I don’t identify as a feminist that would be bad. Also wasn’t trying to say that, but obviously I don’t know how to voice my opinions correctly, I apologize.
Jocelyne is being *far* more effective talking to John one on one. That is, this way she has a chance of having a positive effect. If she’d spoken up in front of the evil sinner, she would have had no chance to do anything except undermine her own credibility in John’s eyes. Especially since she wouldn’t have been able to get the dig in about the fancy car bought by the poor for his use. I’ve had some second thoughts about something I said about John never seeing someone else’s problems as his own because of his missionary status, but if he’s driving that car around without guilt, he’s either an entirely thoughtless bastard or a sociopath. I’m hoping for thoughtless bastard, as that leaves some room for growth.
Between Twins and Transformers, if Willis can get a Mustang as well I should just give him all my money, he clearly can manage it better than I can.
So if he buys the movie version of Barricade, you’ll park the TARDIS where now? *Opens notepad.*
I think she may be forced to find a new ride home, depending whether John continues doubling down (likely) or not (in which case, he instead wants to try to prove he is a) a good christian and b) using the car well by getting Joss home.)
If only there was someone else there with a car.
Someone who’s also her family.
Someone who’s much safer for her to be around.
Someone she desperately wants to support.
If only…
Yeah, because Joss carpet-bombing her relationship with her entire family and hometown before she is established in life as a safe and assured independent, and doing so in such a way that would likely also guarantee her sister’s relationship with the family is destroyed, which would cost said sister her free college education from said family, is an absolutely sane and rational decision. Beyond that, you know how awful a position Becky is in right now? I can almost guarantee that at this early point in her college life, her adult life, Joyce’s parents could immediately leave her in the same position just by disowning her, let alone actively making it difficult for her to get what she needs to establish herself in life in the many ways that Toedad has for Becky?
Oh, not to mention that despite their despicable collection of human failings, Joss probably still loves at least some of her family, and knows that an explosive fucking drama bomb of in-fighting with unrepentant sinners will cost said family their entire social standing in their lifelong hometown, their very important positions in their church, even her older brother’s entire career and adult life up to this point. All of that could be gone in months or even weeks if this situation were to blow up into something that makes public record, or even generates the right rumours. I bet that Joss is plenty aware what most of the town is talking about related to this situation, and I bet it isn’t good. People can have genuinely shitty parents and any way Joss chooses to deal with that problem would be completely justified, but it’s entirely her choice to play this situation out how she thinks will keep everyone safer, or happier.
Joss is a meek person, but a calculating one, and she hopefully has some kind of long-term plan for gently making a clean break. Fuck, as meek as she has been shown to be, maybe she currently plans to stay closeted indefinitely – and that is absolutely a valid choice, despite the fact that it’s tragic and would make us all feel very sad, and possibly even make some people here outright hate her like she is some kind of traitor to trans* people. But undermining 25+ years of careful balancing to try to set herself up for a position where she could possibly live her life safely and happily by escalating a situation which may blow over with sufficient damage control and siding with her sister when she knows full well the family can’t possibly respect her as a sensible adult with meaningful agency is highly unlikely to help her sister or Becky, and will possibly destroy her own life in the process.
We would all love to see Joss take the warrior angle on this. It would be immediate, vindicating, and a beautiful symbolic and literal moment. But, the consequences are levels of dire that perhaps some people who haven’t experienced this sort of situation will find it difficult to comprehend. Even knowing of how dire they are, some in such a situation would choose to accept those consequences, and while that would be brave as hell for Joss to do, that does not make it the right choice, or the best choice, but simply the most honest and most satisfying. Once again, we know nothing about Joss’ long-term plan, and very little about her in general; we’re being clearly shown what Joss would like to do and projecting our desires to see her gain all the self-actualizing she would gain from finally getting to live true to who she is, and what she believes in, but with her upbringing this kind of dramatic moment is, if nothing else, not something she would ever just “jump into” the way that, say, Becky has.
But if anyone doubts the stakes here, please consider this and think about it in terms of precisely why Joss would want to see this blow over instead of come to a head; Joss is a member of the LGBQT community, and a member of the fundamentalist community, so she therefore knows well the dangers of being associated with the former and the reactionary attitudes of the latter. These girls are in a small American town that is predominantly fundamentalist, where their family is a well-known, well-respected, well-connected fixture of the community, and the young patriarch of the family is the local goddamned minister. Just think about what such a family could possibly do to solve the problem of a trouble-making, defiant, embarrassment of a daughter. Just think about the fact that this family is politically connected in the town’s hierarchy due to how deeply and thoroughly they are involved with the church, and that the vast majority of citizens and authority figures share their moral sensibilities. What if Joyce’s family decided that saving face with their community was worth more than their daughter’s safety, or even her life? Honour killings are a real thing, and not many questions would ever be asked if she were to suddenly disappear and never come back. Joyce is not in the same position as Joss to understand how much danger she may actually be putting herself in, so it’s great to see her react to all this in a way that mirrors our own frustration and disgust. But in Joss’ mind, I’m sure she’s trying to find a way to keep her sister from obliterating her current, privileged position in life for a simple moral victory that Joyce will be in a much safer position to assume after enacting a long-term plan.
Maybe I’m being excessively pessimistic, protective, or even paranoid with the extent to which I believe the danger could escalate in this situation. But not only is that level of discrepancy absolutely called for by those who are trapped in such situations, it suits the thinking of somebody brought up in such a hostile environment. John nailed the attitude of these people perfectly in his shut-down to Becky: People get what they deserve, and because you chose to do wrong, you should have expected all of the consequences that befell you and accept them as God’s will, and summary punishment for your wrongs. Even if you take the God parts out of it, this style of thinking often leads to that sort of never-ending forward-thinking and meticulous planning for the simple fact that you have internalized all outcomes as your direct responsibility and hold yourself fully accountable for ensuring that nothing bad ever happens.
I could have ascribed far too much thought into Joss’ motivations, but if nothing else, any and all deviations from her script with her family have a chance of raising suspicions she doesn’t want raised. If you think being a lesbian sympathizer isn’t going to go over well with the conservative establishment of a small town, think about the amount of immediate danger Joss would be in if she were ever outed before she has made a safe, clean break from the entire town? Being a gay ally is one thing, but a trans* person, in a place like that, from a family like that? She wouldn’t just be at risk from her family, anybody in that place might try to seriously hurt her. It could end up with a full-on lynch mob. Joss is meek, and scared, and is therefore understandably careful with how she handles her affairs, and if anybody is judging her for that they are seriously off their mark.
^ Amen. Well said, HMH.
I do wish I was a bit nicer in retrospect, but I also wanted to be off-putting to try to highlight the actual gravity of this scenario, which might be lost on some people.
She could however fake it. Stay and talk to Joyce & Becky under the guise of “getting her to calm down”. And then try to make it clear to Joyce that while she supports her, it’s really best for both to try to stay low key.
If only because a long car ride with John and/or talking to Mom in this state might be even more dangerous.
Sounds like a wise plan to me, seems like we might be headed that way.
This is what I’ve been hoping (or she at least keeps it under the implication of ‘that car is unchristian’ and not an unplanned ‘I’m an LGBQXYZ too, you snot’ no matter how satisfying it would be)
Yep.
She’s accusing John of being a hypocritical asshole without peeping a word in support of LGBT+ cause. She’s not breaking her relationship with her entire family but just leaving him and going to Joyce. Her secret is still safe.
I can just feel the divide start in this family
What I want Jocelyne to say”Forget about Becky for a minute. A man we have known or who life came to our sister’s school. Aimed a gun at her and her best friend. FIRED that gun into the air. Kidnapped her best friend at gun point from right next to her and after a series of very dangerous actions one of the only things our sister could do about all of this is hit the man who did all of this before he was arrested. Then instead of getting comfort and support from her family after a newer life ending event her family keeps focusing on one aspect of one of the victims and essentially siding with the man who could have and seemed willing to SHOOT AND KILLED HER. You say she needs to calm down but maybe…. you should be thinking about her and not Becky and getting angry.” Not going to happen but I can wish.
And once more Fuck you John DIAF and I know we haven’t meet her but your wife must be a moron to marry you.
Chuck autocorrect and 2 am posts ‘ known our whole life’ not know or who and ‘near life ending’ not newer life ending
I think John’s feeling a little grab in the ol hypocrite jeans, as he sort of left the “T” out of the LGBQXYZ alphabet-soup there. Probably would have earned himself a clout in the ear if he’d put it in there, though, considering close company.
Kept thinking about that yesterday. How hypocritical John and his mother have been. “We support Ross because he is a part of our religious community.” Isn’t Joyce also a member of your religious community? As well as a member of your family?
Yes, but, see, Ross is a guy, and therefore More Right than Joyce (in John’s mind)
Yep. That’s probably what they’re afraid of facing psychologically. I mean, I don’t think Carol liked Ross *either.* She just wasn’t going to let that stand in the way of never being wrong.
holy crap, is this a thing that happens?! I mean when i was a kid and was part of a christian (catholic) community we pitched in and bought our priest a car but that was a separate thing from the charity donations and he’d been a art of the community for decades at that point. is John even a pastor? or is he just a missionary? I admit i’m fuzzy on how it works in Protestant communities. I’m only catholic anymore when my grandma asks.
There’s no Protestant vow of poverty, unlike in Catholicism. Unfortunately, I have a Catholic upbringing and don’t know any more than that.
He probably works for one of those super-douchy tv churches that sends people envelopes asking them to “plant a seed”. Jocelyne didn’t necessarily misspeak when she said “tithings from the poor”.
Yeah, I had automatically read it as for at first (‘cos that’s how my church works and how any sane system would be set up), but I caught it on the second read. It literally hadn’t occurred to me because what the ever-living fuck.
That’s some televangelist / talk radio host level shit there, John.
No, he’s a missionary in India, I suspect Jocelyne’s statement was basically correct. That money was supposed to come from the poor, to support a church, and he took it.
I mean, probably legally, and probably on the grounds of ‘I didn’t need ALL of this money to set up a church in India, it’s cheap there”. Either way, whatever EXACT mechanism he used, there’s still no legitimate method for a missionary pastor to have a mustang that isn’t “I married into wealth” (Not actually impossible.)
People buying themselves private jets with the donations they get from the poor, sick and elderly is a thing (justified by them NEEDING a private jet to preach, somehow), so someone getting a car out of the same folks isn’t that surprising.
There is a looong history of (presumably not exclusively) American preachers getting rich off of donations, particularly among televised preachers (televangelists). Many American preachers don’t belong to any denomination and are beholden to no one.
There is also a belief among many American eVANGELICALS THAT caps lock is the devil- material success correlates with god’s approval of you; essentially the poor wouldn’t be poor if they didn’t deserve it, and the same for the rich.
It’s not a new or unknown phenomenon by any means. Now enjoy a topical rock song – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MixVbumoDWU
Not to mention the Last Week Tonight monologue that introduced us to Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption.
+1
Which, of course, they later shut down not because they’d broken any laws but because the “seed” they’d been receiving had begun to include semen.
… Whyyyyyyy?
Because people will figure out a way to ruin anything nice.
The term “Prosperity Gospel” is commonly used to describe this belief. It’s damnably toxic.
I’m going with ‘The Pastor’s Son-in-Law.’
DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN.
That burn. Well done Jocelyne!
But John DESERVES that ‘Stang.
Yeah, I don’t know what I was expecting after last time, but wooooooow. Fuck off, you prickmuffin. Fuck all the way off.
He now gets all my hatred previously reserved for Mr. Brown.
… ALL of them? You’ve got none left for Hank? None at all?
I mean, yeah, John’s probably more deserving, but share the anti-love.
I actually kinda like Hank.
And I do believe John has been put right up there with Ross, Blaine, and Mary at the top of my “fuckin’ hate” list.
I don’t think Hank has literally done much that would take him out of the “we should hate him without compassion or mercy” bubble, but he seems to be written distinctly more moderate than the rest of the family in a pointed way that suggests to me in a meta-narrative way that Willis could actually plan for him to, in the long run, come around to reason and recognize that he is on the wrong side of his family for his own interpretation of Jesus’ teachings, similar to how Joyce has. The mother is unsalvageable, John is unsalvageable, but maybe there is hope for dear old dad to be a decent human being.
let’s all cross our fingers
I am with you. Wow… so much.
Wait, that’s not my account?
I hope the eyeroll and jerking motion which go with that statement just didn’t translate to text…
Sarcasm?
Savage AF!
I like angry-Joyce savage, but I think I prefer impossible-to-recover-from sick-truth-burns savage
If Jocelyn and Joyce did the Fusion Dance, the righteous, snarky fury would be absolutely unstoppable.
“Go ahead and try to hit us if you’re able
Can’t you see that our sisterhood is stable?
You can tsk and preach and scoff and threaten hellfire,
But we’ll knock you down with all the force of God’s ire”
Yes!
“And you’re not gonna snark at us two together,
We are gonna stay like this forever.
If you preach us apart, we’ll just quip back better,
And we’ll always be twice the human you are.”
(am i doin’ this right?)
Thumbs up!
I need this song on youtube. Just saying.
You guys have made my morning.
Were you talking about DBZ, and everybody assumed it was Steven Universe, or were you talking about SU, and I assumed it was DBZ?
Plot Twist: it was really A:tLA.
And the constant misspelling Joycelyne would finally make sense!
“Welcome to burn city, don’t let your privilege hit you on your way in”
Fun driving comics incoming!!
AGAIN?!!
Oh DANG Jocelyn that was a SICK BURN
That’s it, Jocelyne is basically me (if I weren’t a guy). Don’t take any of John’s bullshit, Jocelyne!
Go, Jocelyn!
Jocelyn landing some quality blows.
I can only hope someone comes along to land some actual blows.
They’re only quality blows if she actually got through John’s armor. I perceive it’s within the parameters of possibility, plausibility, and perhaps probability that John’s perpetually, permanently unperturbed by people pointing out his putridness.
Jocelyne’s burn did not seem critical enough to affect the type of person who would gladly accept a mustang paid for from tithings, unfortunately.
*effect!
But I’m sure he’ll get self righteously angry about it, just not introspective or repentant.
You had it right the first time.
Don’t worry, I see what you did there
The hero we need.
We haven’t seen her and Mar ie for a while. Wonder what they are up to.
*Marcie
I do believe that’s the other shoe…
Not yet! It’s falling but hasn’t hit the ground yet! Wait for John to suplex Joss for having an opinion in the next strip!
(and then watch people defend him as not being that bad)
About as intense as watching the ball fall in slow motion only to be received AGAIN.
Snap! Privilege checked.
Anyone else notice that Joyce’s family members that are more calm and understanding actually have eye color?
Clearly blue eyed Browns are the superior Brown.
it’s mostly a coincidence because Willis gives kids the eyecolor of the parent of the opposite gender. which is a nice little hint for Jocelyn.
It’s a design choice I appreciate for a variety of reasons. Partly because my sister & I got our father’s blue-gray eyes and my brothers got my mom’s dark brown eyes. Partly because it helps make it so children don’t just look like clones of their same-sex parent in simple art styles. And partly for that great nod to Joc’s gender
We’ll see when Jordan appears, whether the reasonableness gene is attached to the same chromosome as the eye colour gene. (Unless Willis decides to mess with us and give him Hank’s eyes anyway.)
Plot twist: Jordan is non binary. They have different colored eyes.
OH
OHH
*OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH*
^ All of the voices in my head right now.
And fuck yo’ shitty shoes too!
Gotta love how even when he’s adding random letter on, the T still gets left out.
I was hoping someone else noticed. I wonder if Joss did (seeing as the letters probably weren’t her focus in this moment)
Though now I’m imaging (like, really just imagining, don’t actually believe this is the case) that John didn’t include the T because he views it as different and not part of this “trendy” LGBQXYZ; he’s actually surprisingly pretty okay with the T.
John: maybe only mostly an asshole
I’m guessing it’s more like when people say “Black, White, Purple, whatever”. And everyone who isn’t black or white is all “Hey… you shot off into imaginary people before even thinking about us.”
Yes, this
Yup, it’s a microaggression. It’s a reminder that not only are you an unperson and viewed as total garbage by the bigot you’re talking to… you’re also less than that garbage, not even acknowledged, seen as something almost fictional.
And it ends up being a reminder of how far your movement has to go and the itching knowledge that eventually once you’ve fought for years for visibility, you’ll rise to the position of being even more actively hated for what you are.
(/what it feels like to be ace most days)
Yeah. As evidenced by the fact that the response to the unparalleled trans visibility of 2015 was 2016’s unparalleled wave of legislative attempts to pass laws effectively banning our very existence in public or ability to lead public lives. Sometimes visibility fucking sucks, y’all.
Nah, if it was intentional at all it’s because he doesn’t know what T is.
LGBQXYZ is the super secret queer mathematics guild.
As if queer mathematicians would only be satisified with three dimensions!
We can’t put the symbol for the 4th dimension up in public. It would destroy the world.
Lesbian Gay Bisexual Queer Xenosexual YuGiOh Zoids
Not John, who is just showing contempt, but that was me back in the day. I actually was under the mistaken idea that gay men were really women and lesbians were really men, and that trans people were just more honest about it.
Yeah, I bought that being gay was wrong (from what I was taught), but being trans never seemed to be. Either they were sick, in which case it was horrible to have a problem with them, or they really were the other gender, and then of course they’d try to wear the other gender’s clothes. It would be sinful for them to do otherwise! (Yes, there really is such a scripture.)
Don’t get me wrong. While I am still a Christian, I don’t believe any of the anti-gay or anti-clothing stuff today. I’m just discussing how I grew up.
And I don’t think this applies to John at all. I didn’t even show that level of contempt towards gay people when I thought they were sinners.
I’m anti-clothing and I’m not even religious.
So are all naturalists be us black, white, Chinese, Indian, native American, Asian, gay, straight, bi, trans, asexual, or any other race, gender, orientation you can think of
Naturists not naturalists my mobile always something like this when I forget autocorrect is on
My only problem with naturism is that I wouldn’t be able to get through the day without laughing like a maniac. For some reason I cannot think of boobs as anything but hilarious and I think it might be a problem.
I’ve encountered at least one trans woman who was virulently homophobic, insisting that gay men were all secretly trans women, and vice-versa. (The notion of a trans lesbian, for instance, was completely unthinkable to her, as was the idea of bisexuality as anything other than a sign the person was simply a deviant of the highest order.)
In addition to the religious aspect trikly refers to, there’s also the fact that for many trans people, especially in conservative areas, the gatekeeping to get your trans status approved is intense, and rife with gender-policing. If you find a doctor willing to sign the forms at all, you frequently have to prove yourself to be an idyllic form of your true gender, as determined by traditional roles. So trans women are expected to be ultra-feminine housewives, while trans men have to be uber-masculine alpha males.
I was a bit shocked the first time I met a gay man who claimed that bisexuals were just faking it. Since then I learned that that has been a not uncommon “thing”. Before that point I had assumed that the LGBTQ-community were all sort of on the same page, but of course it’s going to have a ton of internal biases because everyone’s just people, after all.
I’ve read that a lot of bi kids are at significant more risk of mental health illness than usual, stemming from the idea that they can get shit from within the Queer community as well as out of it when we’ve built it up to be a safe haven of tolerance and understanding.
Part of that one stems from the unfortunate nature of ‘coming out’ in parts of this country. Since conservatives insist that being gay is a choice, then one consequence of that is that if you aren’t straight, you’re gay. So a kid in a situation like Becky’s has a romantic relationship (or even just recognizes the attraction) and decides they must be homosexual. (Note that neither Becky nor Joyce seems to have heard of the concept of a bisexual in their pre-comic lives.)
So, they go through the whole coming-out process, including lots of intense emotions and counseling and group struggles and so on. And they get to be in a lot of other people’s lives as well. Then they fall for someone of the opposite sex, and everyone is confused, and maybe former same-sex lovers feel betrayed/deceived. It’s a situation where ignorance of how this all actually works leads to a lot of confusion and doubt.
So, stories like that get passed around the gay community (usually only from one side), and pretty soon you get, “There’s no such thing as bisexual.”
There’s also a thing where people aren’t quite willing to fully embrace being gay and try to hang on to some normalcy or just continuity be thinking of themselves as bi, but eventually admit that they’re really only interested in the same sex. Then they or those who’ve watched them go through that, try to help others accept they’re actually gay.
Which does happen and is even well-intentioned, but still contributes to bi-erasure.
The problem, of course, is when those folks who were gay but “tried to hold onto normalcy” deny bisexuality as a valid sexual orientation.
This view of bisexuality as a half measure until admitting you were really gay all along and nothing previous mattered is a huge component of the bi-erasure epidemic.
Absolutely. But it is a thing that happens and it’s understandable when they think others are going through the same process. Wrong, but understandable. Less so in this day and age which is far more open about such things than even a decade or so ago. At least once people are past the Dan/Becky “Is that even a thing?” stage.
Lots of bigotry is understandable. It still hurts and it should still be squashed out so people never have to go through that “is that even a thing” stage.
He also left out a bunch of other letters.
Dumbass never learned his ABC’s yet he’s callin’ Joyce a kid, shaw right.
[/wittysarcasm]
Oooooh. That is such an interesting detail. Kudos, Willis.
…oh wow. It’s a small thing, but… wow.
I noticed but that’s coincidentally around the point where most people stop remembering the rest, or pretend not to remember the rest because it proves they actually recognize it all
though it would be super-weird to be okay with trans* but NONE OF THE REST–that’s like skipping some steps
> though it would be super-weird to be okay with trans* but NONE OF THE REST–that’s like skipping some steps
Well, AIUI that’s the situation in Iran (at least, on the official level – the general population isn’t necessarily any more progressive than here).
It’s a cure for homosexuality, but it’s also totally a thing (And probably better accepted there than here, since even as a top-down dictate it still is unlikely to have remained in effect for 2 decades without at least broad support (Even among the rural people, since the people of the cities are generally more liberal than those who live in the states).
I mean, the general population of Iran isn’t more progressive than that of the states – IE if you count rural and rural. But it’s by no means some enormous gap that Meriken simply automatically win like they tend to imagine. Which is pretty true as a rule, afaik.
Well my impression and what I was getting at is that it’s about as accepted there as homosexuality is here, which is, you know, not great, esp. when you look at rural people or conservatives, but the contrast basically shows that intolerance (and partial/incomplete progression of tolerance on a societal level) comes in all sorts of flavors and you can’t really generalize there being “steps” or that accepting trans people is automatically a “higher level” than accepting gay people.
They do more surgery than thailand. Thailand is one of the most common places for Westerners to go (and plenty, even in more accepting countries, will still go to thailand). I’m sure it’s still not great, but there’s only so much room for this handwringing about how it’s ‘like the USA’.
Content warning: Homophobia
Oh, it’s not just that.
It’s partially intentional. Folks like John do not believe in trans people. Trans people are just “extreme versions of gay people”. Like someone gays so hard they become a trans person. As such, of course they are not going to honor it, because in their eyes a (slur for gay male) is a (slur for gay male).
Don’t forget, all the people just putting it aside as a mental disease and it should be cured with Pimozide or something like that. In my experience that is the kind of opinion you meet when talking with “Intellectuals” any way.
“Someone gays so hard they become a trans person.”
That made me laugh in a really darkly amused way. I have been gaying all over the place for many years and still no penis
Gotta keep buyin’ em at the store.
Sorry if insensitive, but sometimes I really think all the shitty nonsense bigots believe is ridiculous enough to be a joke. <3
Laughing at other people’s utterly irrational, unwavering stupidity is one of the most benign forms of dark humor probably. It may make you seem a bit insensitive but at least you’re not being actively offensive.
Actually historically it’s always been the other way around; LBGA people were all violating our traditional gender roles, by not wanting to marry and have kids in the Proper Heteronormative Fashion. So we were seen as “basically trans”, rather than trans folk being seen as “basically gay”.
I mean, transphobic cis LGBs have done a bang up job of trying to shift the umbrella so as to make same-gender attraction (esp. exclusive same-gender attraction) the primary reason for oppression, so that we can uh I guess feel more important and authoritative as we try to toss other people out of “”our”” movement for not being gay enough… but yeah, historically it’s not true. And in terms of which groups of us suffer the most extreme effects of LGBTQIAphobia, it’s pretty clear that it’s still not true. A white cis gay man is not, in fact, the most at-risk demographic.
All of which, while certainly true, is also part of the even larger shift in our approach to gender roles, started by the early feminist movements.
Sure, though I wouldn’t be so quick to say “started by feminists” as if there was no overlap? See: the Spinster Movement, which was made up of LBA and feminist women. Feminism, asexuality, and WLW all united in an attempt to fight back.
The idea of bigotry from within the Queer community always truck me as one of the saddest things I’ve ever heard.
Seconded, but there will always be people who react to oppression by trying to oppress someone else even more vulnerable than they are
HALLELUJAH, these words. I am sick to death of the sga model tacking on “or you could be trans I guess, then you can be part of the community too” as if…. the reason for being targeted is and always has been sga…..
Plus it’s incredibly obviously about excluding people (particularly aces).
/stands up for my ace and aro honorary siblings forever
I know it doesn’t always feel like this, but I swear to you: some of us recognize that the gatekeeping crap being lobbed your way right now is exactly the same transphobic and biphobic crap we’ve rejected before (are still rejecting now), and are only more determined to not tolerate it being used again.
You are valid and real and important and that you’ve been deliberately erased from history doesn’t make you any less deserving of a seat at the table.
True, very true. Which I think makes it easier for bigots to lump us all together (and is the reason that trans and other queer rights have always been intertwined). In their eyes, we’re all “sinning” against “proper gender roles” and trans people are just “sinning” harder than the rest.
And it tends to all stem from the same pit of anxious toxic masculinity, terrified that the separation between men and women isn’t the uncrossable gaping chasm they want it to be.
YEP. I think the thing to remember when looking at how we’re categorized is to remember that the cis straight dyadic hegemony has never given the tiniest of craps about how we differ from each other or why; we are all, have always been, weird and wrong to them. That’s why we were all “queer”. Because we failed the test for “normal”, because we our non-normality was incredibly threatening for their concept of society; not because we were specifically some degree of gay. And they sure as heck didn’t care to distinguish between someone exclusively gay and someone ace, because both had the same result of not wanting to get married and have kids.
But that’s why I’m nonbinary–maximum gay! Feelings for a dude? It’s gay. Feelings for a lady? Also gay. Feelings for another nb person? Super mega gay. Maximum gay: achieved. (I mean I’m also ace which people loooooove like to bring up to invalidate 100% of that, but only if they’re an asshat)
INFINITE GAY!
Oh I have gotten the “How is your “boyfriend”” from people. They literally do air quotes. So tempting to respond that “he is getting further than you ever will.”
Or the one I get from the a bunch of the kids at the college Queer Alliance, “You are just afraid to come out as gay.” Well no honey, I am biromantic and open about it, and most people I know would give me less shit for being gay.
Actually, I became “okay with trans” back in the ’80s, long before I became a decent human being on this stuff. It was a case of my sexism and homophobia beating up my transphobia. See, there was this James Bond Girl named Tula, who was trans, who did nude photo spreads. Somewhere, deep in my mind while flipping through the magazine, I came to the conclusion that either she was a woman, or I was gay–and being gay in the 80s was simply unacceptable even as a remote thought, so “trans woman = woman” it was.
Rightest decision for wrongest reasons, ever.
I thought the omission was startling as well.
I wonder if it’s because he’s somehow sensitive to Jocelyne’s “T”-ness. Or it’s just a mistake or erasure.
Given his current attitude, what do you think the odds are that he knows at all?
Seems more likely to me that he just doesn’t care enough to actually know the full acronym.
Bingo. “This isn’t even worth me taking it seriously enough to be accurate about it.”
I agree that that’s more likely. But, riddle me this…
Which is more interesting: Somebody who’s a bigot through and through? Or somebody who’s a bigot through and through, yet practices some bizarre form of mental gymnastics such that they can support their trans (and straight!) sister Jocelyne, but reject the rest of the lgbt+ community on the basis of being sinning trend-chasers that are distracting from the only important issue, the one that effects the people I know personally?
“They’re all terrible except for tnis one individual in particular because I know them personally” is a logic contortion in many circles.
But frankly, if that were John’s exact attitude towards Joss, I wouldn’t take it as any sort of kindness or concession. It would simply be him choosing to specifically pardon his sister’s sin, while still fully internally believing that Joss is an abomination and subhuman, for either the sake of appearances or being utterly incapable of expanding his worldview beyond his privileged existence. That makes him a special kind of asshole, and a complete and total hypocrite.
Yes and as if she needs his pardon for being herself.
I agree that it would be incredibly interesting if John were consciously sensitive towards Jocelyn. Unfortunately, with him addressing them as “Josh” in yesterday’s strip, it’s likely that John either isn’t aware of Joss’s situation, or (worse) he does know and is entirely dismissive of it.
Interestingly, I got it from an acquaintance of a friend of James Dobson, the founder and erstwhile president of Focus on the Family, that dear Dr Dobson believes just this. Trans people have a physical problem (i.e., being born into a body with a sex that doesn’t match who they are) and should be accepted and supported, but gay people have a sexual perversion that they indulge. So yeah. Apparently it’s a thing.
Benzene is awesome.
‘Kay, bye.
I don’t think I knew ‘T’ was a part of the acronym until a couple of years ago. If I was to have ‘Alphabet Soup’ the acronym, I’ve of done the same.Hell, I don’t think I even realized that the ‘T’ part of it was a thing at all, and my life was only partly sheltered. Perhaps John doesn’t know Trans people exist as well.
I grew up knowing “LGBT” without actually knowing the deciphering. I also knew “LGBT+” and “LGBTQ” (and “LGBTQ+”). Everything past that just disintegrates into alphabet soup for me… I prefer MOGAI XD
QUILTBAG for me. More fun to say; harder to leave anyone out.
QUILTBAG does seem more fun, but seeing it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Think I’ve heard the term ‘queerbag’ used as an insult to a bi friend before.
Part of why I like QUILTBAGPIPE
(Pansexual, Intersex again because they get left out so much, Polyamorous, and Everyone Else we forgot)
Ouch, yeah, and that was absolutely not lost on Jocelyne.
And the A, please don’t forget about us….
And no, it does NOT mean Ally.
Well, duh, it’s stands for… uh… um… “aren’t we glad we didn’t miss anyone?”, right?
(/sarcasm because I’m also totally ace)
Between the regular “A is for Ally!” and preferring MOGAI for that exact reason, I actually didn’t notice.
John is truly a neverending deliverer of miracles
Truth in fiction. Truest truth in any fiction ever.
I’m just surprised he got the LGBQ part.
I’m surprised that he knows about the alphabet soup. Normally people just stick with “the gays”
I’m surprised he cares.
He has no reason to actually learn or internalize everything, but due to being younger and also the importance of keeping up his appearance as a stoic and learned moral paragon of his ministry, he has to pretend to make an effort such that he differentiates himself from the more openly bigoted people with whom he agrees, yet must look and feel superior towards. By learning anything at all, he’s satisfied himself with his own exploration of the topic because he knows that he knows more about “that sort of trendy nonsense” than his peer group, which is exactly the same in his mind as actually giving the concepts and ideas an actual, critical, fair shake.
Good GOD, Jocelyn! That burn wasn’t even HUMANE!
Nice work.
So savage she should be busting myths on TV.
YEAHHHHHHH JOCELYNE IN FOR THE KILL
Wrong person to lecture to, Johnny-boy.
Oh shit – Jocelyne is bringing out the receipts, because it’s time to get payback.
John better pull out his aloe, ’cause he’ll need it for those burns!
I trust that they were only drinking water, so they didn’t just run out on the check.
I don’t think they got to the “ordering” phase. I don’t know this restaurant chain, but I doubt they’re out more than some water and maybe some rolls or something.
I love the idea that now that they’re gone Joyce and Becky are kicking back and perusing the menu.
And in half an hour, once they’ve eaten (Chicken fingers after all), they come out to find John and Jocelyne still in a screaming match in the parking lot.
Ooh sick burn brah.
Well, well– I can see John is going to be even more “popular” around here after reading today’s strip!
If I were in a room with John and Toedad, I honestly suspect I’d punch John first.
At least Toedad didn’t pretend there was no gun, kidnapping, and death threats involved.
Toedad is Voldemort; John is Umbridge.
I can totally see John forcing Joyce to write something like “I won’t say angry things” in her own hand.
And then Joyce and Becky leave him to a herd of the destitute, lesbians, and gay men as he begs for help.
He never recovers and screams every time he sees red hair.
Do you think the comments will exceed yesterday’s?
Looks like there is a strong chance of it.
Wow, just wow…is that like a thing that you get a new car for being a missionary?
I really now virtually nothing about the workings of churchs and missionaries but this seems…excessive
Ninjaed.
And yeah, I’ve never heard of this, but then I don’t know any fundie missionary types. It seems rather less than charitable.
Could be a Prosperity Gospel thing of some sort. An American evangelist, Creflo Dollar, has been getting a lot of press in recent months because he wants his congregation to donate funds for a 60 million buck bizjet for supposed evangelisation purposes.
He got the jet, actually. Oh, and the home they own are tax-free.
Yea, because apparently his previous jet was too old or too small.
That’s been a controversial point in the news before. The tithe goes to the church and is supposed to be used to spread the word of God… But if the preacher gets a fancy new car, well, if it helps him proselytize, who cares?
Satan’s already got all that cool hellfire and shit, Pastor’s gotta’ have something to up the cool factor.
“HEY KIDS LOOK! A NEW WATERSLIDE!”
A… holy waterslide?
Makes baptisms a whole lot more fun.
That holy waterslide is for killing vampires only, and don’t you forget it!
Look…if there is a waterslide involved I am gettin’ baptised. I might need four or five turns on the slide just to make sure it takes.
“I still feel like a godless gay heathen, can I get baptized again?”
… if the preacher gets a fancy new car (or $60M jet), well, if it helps him proselytize, who cares?
—————————
It is beyond amazing just how people will twist the word of God when they need it to support their particular position, desire, or lifestyle.
I wouldn’t stretch to “Amazing”, really. Considering how many words they are and the it all has the verifiability of a fortune cookie it’s really a wonder that people have managed to form large consensuses at all.
You throw all the money up in the air, and God grabs what he needs, and the rest is yours.
My cousins-in-law got a house. It came with their pastorate. The whole thing makes me kinda queasy.
Were they given it or are they living in it rent free?
A parsonage is fairly standard going back to at least the middle ages. It means that there is a place fro the pastor near the church and is a relatively sound investment for a fair size church as it can reduce the pastors needed salary, especially once the building is paid off it can reduce. In the churches that rotate pastors like the United Methodist it also save an incoming pastor from taking out a mortgage every few years.
Of course, traditionally, it’s never actually the preacher’s house. They can’t even change the carpet without permission.
And parsonages aren’t usually McMansions. I grew up as a PK (ELCA Lutheran), and I remember the fun that ensued when it was discovered that the basement wall of the parsonage was visibly bowing inwards. Time for committees, which always move fast!
I literally could have written this entire comment. Are you me (or one of my five siblings)?
Yeah, that’s not a big deal. It’s a house that they have for the pastor, and it’s a lot cheaper than paying him to have a large enough salary to actually buy a house. And he gets to be nearby, so he can get to the church quickly–which not only helps the parishioners, but also keeps transportation costs down.
You can’t literally have all the money coming to the church be spent on the poor–unless everyone working there is independently wealthy. That’s not really the issue. The issue is, as Joss pointed out, that a brand new car is not remotely necessary for his mission in India. Especially not a car that is back her in America.
Letting him borrow a car while he’s back would make sense, but a brand new car? That is just wasteful. And makes me think he’s not even the type of missionary who has to work when he comes back home.
Unless it’s a particularly nice house, I’m not sure why that’s odd or controversial. Pastor needs a place to live, don’t ‘e?
I would like to take a small amount of pride in saying no mission or congregation I have been a part of was ever that wasteful. It really is amazing just how fast my opinion of John sank. I really wanted to like him.
Yeah, I wanted him to be an okay person too. Not necessarily perfect, but generally sympathetic.
I remember one priest get a car that expensive from our church… Three days later when I saw him at school for Wednesday mass he had sold it and was giving the money to the school for some to quote “new god damn paint” for the drama department. The uniforms it bought for the basketball team were… Infuriating.
Depends on the missionaries and the people backing them.
*plays the Osmond Brothers’ “Crazy Horses” on a passing car’s stereo*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K48WZaA3rlA <- For your listening pleasure.
Yes. This is good.
Niiiiice.
Woo Jocelyne! I’m glad she’s getting some in. Now let’s see if John’s a jerk enough to leave her here.
My money’s on no, but only because he needs a captive audience to criticize for a bit. Probably gets antsy if he can’t do that every few minutes.
Yeah, John needs to explain how, even from his viewpoint, his sister shouldn’t be upset at having a rifle pointed at her.
“My sister was almost killed, how can I make this about me?”
I don’t think that’s accurate. I think in his case he may be blind enough to his own inherent hypocrisy that it’s more like “my sister was almost killed, but it was the direct consequence of her sins, and she needs to learn the lesson that God is trying to teach her with His Plan.”
Oh, John will definitely leave her behind.
Oh snap!
Jocelyn. You fucking go girl.
That was so needed to be said at that moment.
There needs to be a group consisting of Joyce, Becky, Ethan, Danny, Walky, Dorothy, Billie, Ruth, Marcie, Carla, and Malaya standing behind her going “OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH” every time she says something boss.
I am so angry at this condescending fucker that I can’t even articulate how much I hate him. I’m just seething.
Well, getting angry just proves you are wrong, right?
I can. I’d like to knock his smug, condescending teeth so far in he’ll be chewing with his colon.
Seriously, that, ‘life is hard, so i don’t NEED to have sympathy for others’ right wing attitude makes me mad as hell too.
-Especially- when their own life is anything but hard.
+1
I can’t say any of the things I truly think/would like to see visited upon this family which would embarrass even the Old Testament God. This seems like a nice enough place, and I don’t much want to be banned from commenting over it.
Let’s discuss this later when you can be reasonable, mmkay?
How ’bout I “reasonably” rearrange his face with my cane. I have to have it to walk to the bus stop or farther, might as well put it to good use.
…is walking to the bus stop or father not good use?
Same. Urge to punch someting – rising.
I feel like I should be inventing words or something myself.
Behold, the next Shakespeare.
Fie! Though Jocelyne’s burneth wast very much hot, joshua yet stands unbearably entithl’d.
Might I recommend a series of three *snaps?
What sucks is he’s not all wrong. Actions have consequences is a prime lesson in college.
The problem is that he’s the one making the consequences. Like, being a lesbian needn’t have consequences, except that people like John and Ross are utterly horrible assholes about it.
You know, it’s actually incredible how little he seems to care for Joyce (and Becky, but Joyce is his SISTER so it’s more surprising). Does he even realize her life was literally in danger? She had a friggin rifle aimed at her. Does he somehow not realize that? Does he not care?
Trust me, it’s the ‘not care’ one.
Nope ’cause in their bigoted little heads, it was all their fault for being what they are.
You know.
Decent human beings.
If he acknowledges she has a genuine point it strengthens her position and weakens his. Suddenly the lesbian is in the right and the fundy is in the wrong for acting on his beliefs.
It’s not that he doesn’t care, exactly. It’s that he thinks Ross was in the right to remove Becky from school and make plans for her to be sent to a “correction” camp, and Joyce was in the wrong to deceive a parent (and ngl, Ross being an older man does factor in in this particular sect, and Joyce defying him was beyond wrong to someone like John) when the parent was simply trying to protect their child. (Even though Ross’ form of “parenting” was abuse and kidnapping at gunpoint)
In his line of thinking, Joyce isn’t an adult protecting another adult/friend, Joyce is a dumb little kid lying to the adults to protect a sinful, entitled brat from the “loving correction” of their betters, and they drove Ross to his extreme actions.
So everything Ross did is Becky’s fault, and partly Joyce’s, and they should feel bad for driving Ross to it and getting Ross in trouble, and then daring to act like they were in the right.
If you’ll excuse me, I need to go take a shower and scrub these terrible childhood memories of these sorts of assholes off of my soul.
Gods, I need a shower after reading that as well.
*hugs and sobs uncontrollably*
A singular fairness I can grant to him on this one thing is he probably has had zero involvement in Joyce or her life. He was probably nearly moved out by the time she was walking and talking, they’ve presented him that way. Why would you be close to a family member who was a baby when you lived with them and you then stopped seeing regularly, without some kind of special connection between the two of you?
That’s the rub, ain’t it?
Making sure to pass laws creating awfulness and suffering for a marginalized group, so you can point to the “harder” lives they live as proof of your superiority and the raw degeneracy of that “lifestyle”.
Encourage bullying in the schools, disownnment of queer kids, and firing them from all jobs and evicting them from all housing and then point to the suicide, homeless, and depression rates as proof of the “unhealthiness” of being queer. It’s the Family Research Council’s life-long shtick.
You know that phrase “Science advances one funeral at a time”? It totally applies to social progress too because half the way we move away from this shit is when the people who believe it have the good grace to fucking bite it.
Wanna know something super gross? “Social skills” therapy for autistic kids includes performance of gender stereotypes.
So if you are an autistic girl who likes weather like I was, your therapy will include trying to “extinguish” the “inappropriate behavior” of preferring meteorology to dolls. When they aren’t holding everything you love hostage to compliance as a “positive reinforcer..”
And autistic folk are WAY more likely to be transmitted and/or various non-straight alignments. Guess how they’re treated, since if you’re autistic you’re not even allowed to know you’re passionate about something. Cuz it’s not a passion, it’s a “special interest”.
Trans not transmitted. Fucking Autocorrect.
True, but it’s hard to hear any reasonable meaning he has when his head is so far up his ass.
Yeah, but that really doesn’t apply to the situation here.
Not all wrong, no. Just where it counts.
As much as I think actions should have consequences (a huge part of agency is feeling that your actions produce proportionate responses) being a lesbian is not an action, and having a gun pointed at you pretty much not an acceptable consequence of any action.
And the refusal to accept that Toedad’s actions (aka. holding your daughter and her friend up at gunpoint) have consequences too, much more legally enshrined ones.
“Life is hard” is not false. But it is all wrong when spoken as if it had to be the case, by someone who is actually one of the reasons life is hard.
Seriously, life being hard or unfair is not a justification for your concerted efforts to maintain or exacerbate that state, the fact that life is hard and unfair should be something we strive to mitigate not an excuse to be an asshole.
Well well, welly well well, to quote Jonesy Garcia. Remove the beam from your own eye and all that, John.
Ooooooh I underestimated Jocelyne.
::popcorn::
Like, I am no shrinking violet at all, but in Jocelyne’s closeted shoes I’d probably be looking out the car window and trying to be as small as possible. It would be perfectly understandable and okay for her to react that way about all the terrible BS flying around her.
But that’s not what she’s doing, now is it!! YES GO JOCELYNE GO
Note how she’s not saying a thing about the actual issue at hand, she goes off on an independent barely related tangent having to do with John’s personal moral character instead.
Not a word uttered in actual overt support of alphabet soup.
SICK BURN delivered.
I fucking love Jocelyne.
With this, I agree completely and heartily!
I know right! I wasn’t expecting this, but pretty excited about all this sass.
(Actually it makes me wonder if Jocelyne was actually afraid of Joyce, yesterday.)
I think Jocelyn might have been afraid of getting hit by whatever Joyce was likely to throw at Jonathan.
Yeah, I’d be afraid of Joyce with a heavy object rn.
I think Jocelyne was afraid of the conflict, and afraid of John turning his hellfire on her next, and afraid because she was getting a front-row seat to how conditional their family’s support is… but then she sassed him anyway, because she loves Joyce and she knows it’s right and she’s brave.
Also the heavy objects.
If only Round The Clock served sweet-pickle pies.
Yup! Those are all very scary things. And yet she spoke up anyhow! I think all the love for Jocelyne is more than warranted!
This also isn’t a direct defense of the lesbian. That’s too scary territory to touch. Comes to close to home.
She can attack John on the greed and hypocrisy without getting close to that. Deflection, but an outlet for the rage that has to be tearing her up.
JOCELYNE WITH NO REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE
JOCE DA HOSS
I DUNNO I’M JUST SUPER EXCITED AND HAPPY WITH OL’ JOCELYNE TEAM JOCE 4EVER
I’VE GOT THE T-SHIRTS
LET’S GOOOOOOOOOOO
That guy has to be the youngest curmudgeon I’ve ever seen. Will John call Joyce a whippersnapper in the next strip?
… I read ‘curmudgeon’ as ‘cum dungeon’
Well you’re not wrong…
Is that some kind of LGBQXYZ thing?
Age is a state of mind.
I love Jocelyn. I want to hug him and just love him forever. Because he understands how it feels to have to hide something from your family because they wouldn’t understand or worse think that he needs to be “reconditioned”. V -V *hugs laptop* > A< YOU TELL HIM JOCELYN!
I know you mean well, but…
“I love Jocelyn. I want to hug *her and just love *her forever. Because *she understands how it feels to have to hide something from your family because they wouldn’t understand or worse think that *she needs to be “reconditioned”. V -V *hugs laptop* > A< YOU TELL HIM JOCELYN!"
Her. Jocelyne, and “her”.
*her, she, she. Careful there.
*her, her, she & she
I really hope the misgendering was accidental.
(Jocelyn is trans, and she hasn’t dared tell anyone in her family yet.)
Really, has she told anybody? She sent Ethan an SMS with her email addy so he may have some small inkling, but if there are any people that actually know, like members of her LGBTQIAPK support group (did I get all the letters in the correct order?) are people who have not been introduced in-comic as yet.
Ethan doesn’t have an inkling, he straight up knows that Joyce has a sister, now. Jocelyne took a huge risk in telling him, but, yeah, his face at the end of that strip was one of realization, when he saw the JocelyneJBrown email address.
Assuming he picked up on it as well as the chat did. He did seem to come to a realization when he saw it. But I could still see him not quite get it.
I know I thought it was a pen name. It wasn’t until I saw the chat that I put it all together.
Actually, I went back and looked at that comic again. After Ethan asked about being able to see some of her writing, Joshua/Jocelyne told Ethan she would text him some links; and then what he got on his phone was “JocelyneJBrown.com” — which is *NOT* an email address. I too thought at first that Joshua was writing under a female nom de plume in much the same way many females have written under an assumed male or androgynous name; it wasn’t until Willis himself made in clear in the comments that we knew beyond a doubt that Jocelyne was transgender but unannounced.
Incidentally, type “JocelyneJBrown.com” into your browser and see what comes up.
haahhahahahahah omg that’s amazing
Not that amazing. It’s pretty much common sense that if you’re going to use a URL in fiction, you register it.
What’s unusual is he’s still keeping the registration up several years later.
(What would be amazing would be if he’d actually built a site of Joss’s writing. Just redirecting is more common.)
Well…register it, or use a TLD that doesn’t exist. But in this era of .horse, I’m not sure if it’s possible for a TLD to not exist ant more.
Speak for yourself. I didn’t read the comments the first time through and I picked up on that. (It helped that the hover text said “Joyce’s sister is kinda adorable.” I mean there’s only one way to interpret that)
I’m srry. Because there are some people who get confused or offended I wrote “he” more jokingly. V v V I realize her situation and shouldn’t have been rude like that.
Wow, you know what, fuck John, he’s terrible.
What’s practical with John is that you can fuck him ANYWHERE since he’s just a giant asshole!
Oh come on, he did not park in the handicapped space.
*inhales slowly*
*breathes out slowly*
Someone needs to kill him. Right now. Just slit his fucking throat and be DONE with it. “Entitled”?! “ENTITLED”?! Consequences for WHAT?! EXISTING?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
I want him dead I want him dead I want him dead
Tempting but psychological trauma last a lot longer than death.
I was expecting this ever since John tried to keep Becky from coming to lunch. Seeing everyone else arrive here is … well, I didn’t expect it to be this painful.
I am never actively wishing violence or physical harm on anybody, but maaaan, if someone wrecked this jerkwad’s fancy car or something, I’d be so super okay with that.
“I have never killed any one, but I have read some obituary notices with great satisfaction.” – Clarence Darrow
Yeah. This is the Margaret Thatcher thing. Or Scalia. Or numerous others. People who, in life, used their power to actively harm people. I am not gonna be sad that they died. Maybe I have sympathy for their loved ones, but if anyone comes and tells me to ‘respect their legacy’, then….. nahhhhhh thanks, I’m good.
Why have I never heard this quote before?
What about:
“You should never say bad things about the dead, you should only say good . . . Joan Crawford is dead. Good.” – Bette Davis
please I need more
Wow. That’s not an overreaction or anything…
I especially love the guy with the free fancy car is the one calling others entitled.
Even without all the other factors that’s enough to make him a total arsewipe.
I don’t expect the car to be “free” actually. It’s probably paid from his income which will not be significantly more than that of others. It’s just that when you have that kind of income while living in a country where the average income is a 20th of yours, money tends to accumulate even when living a considerably luxurious style.
The bottom line may be the same but you arrive there with a lot more of, well, entitlement. You feel you deserve that much more than the ones around you since you were born into an exploitative country which you left voluntarily. You just left the money tap running, and when coming back to visit, the house is flooded.
Actually, in the megachurch scene it’s not uncommon for pastors and missionaries to get free luxury items tax free, often with some BS attached about how they totally use it for ministering… and just driving around.
A lot of the time, it’s paid for by little old ladies sending in their life savings to the Church because “that’s what god wants”.
Basically just google “prosperity gospel”.
This content made me think of that guy who tried to convince his congregation to put together a few million bucks to buy him a private jet – to use in the ministry, of course – and then blamed ‘Satan’ when they didn’t hit the funding target.
Jesus walked and frequently slept rough.
The Apostle Paul either walked or hitch-hiked his way around the entire Western Empire when he wasn’t on military prison barges.
I wonder if they’re capable of understanding what this says about them as ‘Christians’?
Where is the lightning when it is so clearly called for? Jocelyn’s burn needs to be followed by one from God — the real God, the God who loves and doesn’t put up with bigots and bullshit. The actual God of love; not the one of whatever f’ed up church the Brown’s attend.
… is this a thing that happens? Missionarys getting free cars from skimmed money? Cause… damn.
I assume it is, since it’s Willis’ sort of thing to know, but it definitely is for higher ups in the mission programs (organizers and up, I mean, rather than random missionaries or the churches who promote missions).
Yes. Yes, it is.
Well clearly if the church gave them that car that means that God wanted them to have it.
But yeah it happens. They don’t often call it skimming, and some are even open about spending money on personal gifts, but mega-churches can make a ton of money and you can’t spend all of that on poor people, can you?
See, I never know how involved other people are in the culture. “Should I bring up Creflo Dollar’s 65 million dollar luxury jet, which was bought to replace another, smaller jet that he felt wasn’t worthy of him? I mean, he’s hardly a *standard* missionary, and everyone’s already heard of that, right?
Considering it was covered on Last Week Tonight last year, I think people know.
Yeah, but LWT is delivered to a small audience of the like-minded. Granted, those people are disproportionately likely to read DoA, but…
Bless our Mega Reverend and CEO for founding Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption!
And call 1-800-THIS-IS-LEGAL!
LET’S SEND OUR SEED
I have no idea who it was who played his ‘wife’ for that segment, but she was fantastic.
Rachel Dratch, SNL 1999-2006, and she’s been in a lot of stuff (over a dozen different one-episode roles in 30 Rock, for example).
Distributing a whole bunch of money to five people is a whole lot less work than distributing it to hundreds of thousands of people.
It’s just being efficient. Try getting some developing country project funded for $10000. Close to impossible. Make it $100mill of which most will go to “administrative” costs and spent inside of the organization including a bit of backpay, possibly in the form of campaign funds and other actually legal niceties, and you’re talking.
Plus it still makes its way down to the poor via “trickle down economics,” right? So it’s basically just the same as giving that money to the poor directly, just more efficient. And, like, intuitive and natural and stuff. Yeah.
Yup and more.
Hey, it’s not like Jesus said that it should be the rich giving all their money to the poor, is it?
There’s a long, shameful history of corrupt jackasses using the church as their own personal piggybank, and it’s alive and well (like a cancer) in the modern evangelical churches of America. It’s particularly grotesque and virulent in the ‘prosperity gospel’ variants, which con and coerce poor and desperate people into donating everything they’ve got ‘give till it hurts’ to ‘plant a seed’ that will then guarantee them that god will give them great riches in return. It’s disgusting beyond words.
Less common than people say, more common than a lot of people think. Prosperity Gospel malarky aside, some churches really do like buying expensive junk for their pastors. It’s not overwhelmingly common, but it happens.
Anywhere where huge amounts of money accumulate in one place, corruption tends to follow. That’s doubly so if the people accumulating the money have convinced themselves that they speak for a higher power.
Now I’m curious about the age difference between John and Jocelyne. Also, eee~ Go Joss~ as a starving writer, she knows that the real world is hard. Becky and Joyce know that too. But the real world shouldn’t have a consequence like ‘my dad came to SHOOT ME AND MY FRIENDS BECAUSE I’M GAY’. Like, this guy’s a missionary? THIS guy? Suppose the people of India should know they need to learn the consequences of having a different religion and culture…
From the patreon bonus strip, Jocelyne is maybe 5 years older than Joyce and 10 years younger than John. Not sure about Jordan.
Wooow, that’s a lot of years. I’m a little surprised that John roped Joss in with himself then, did he think college changed so much in the 5 years between when Joyce and Joss started college? Then again he probably just took Joss’ silence to mean she agreed and thus HER college years weren’t filled with so much ‘entitlement’.
Thanks for answering that for me!
The Johns of the world are always surprised to encounter face-to-face disagreement. I mean, they’re just RIGHT, y’know?
Well, if Joycelen weren’t wrong, she would not need to get angry, would she now? Man, that line of condescension is a gold mine.
I think it’s a convenient othering of experience that’s simply convenient to the social narrative that is shared by this social group. The “entitlement culture” of millennials and college students is a massive talking point of the regressive right in the modern day. Simply because this is the way that his culture views those things, right now, today, John is perfectly able to accept it as 100% fact that his lived experience with college was the “correct” and “standard” way the affair was supposed to go, but now that said demographic doesn’t include or agree with him, the narrative is simply “ever since we were done with it, it changed for the worse.” Ignore the fact that John was naturally absent from the specific segments of his college’s population (or, he probably just went to the fundie college to get his tax exemption uniform) that might have disagreed with his opinion, the way he experienced it was the way it was for everybody who came out of it at the same time as him. That, and since Joss came out of her time at Anderson as a “normal” person whereas Joyce has become something abhorrent and terrifying in the eyes of God (see: a baby girl who questions his overarching authority on all matters), so therefore the change in how college works can only possibly occur in the time between Joss leaving and Joyce showing up there. There is simply no other possible way of looking at it, because God is infallible and he made the world exactly this simple, which is what I was taught and is to what I owe all my success in life. The core failure that causes the suffering and complex problems of others can be summarized as “they didn’t believe the same things I did and therefore God intentionally fucked them over.”
Jordan’s between the girls, so that narrows it down considerably.
There was a bonus comic that had Joyce not-yet-born, Jocelyne trying to express her trans-ness despite being FAR too young to even grock the concept, and John being discussed as if he was already out of school.
So probably something like 20 years.
Whoops, got John and the older kid mixed up.
No, you wereright. John is the oldest.
No it was John.
Which is why I’m a little surprised that John’s talking about college not being the same when they both went. Jocelyne can’t be that many years out of school.
That’s even more years, damn. I’m surprised he’s only been married one year and with no children. Thank you for answering, too!
Christi is probably Hijra. So no children to be expected.
I’d interpreted John as high school age in that one. Note that he is eating while the rest of the family is talking, so growth spurt in progress, maybe.
It’s really heart-breakingly adorable and that’s why I’m happy that the print comics are going to have the Bonus Strips in them.
Isn’t the point of religious missionaries to completely replace the religion and culture of a foreign people with the “correct” one? You go in under the guise of improving the quality of life and helping people who need it and destroy everything that made them them.
Good point, John’s perfect for the job.
Word of Willis says he’s “between 30 and 35”. There’s a pretty long gap between John and Jocelyne, the next oldest. We know Joyce is the youngest, and she’s 18.
Wow. I wasn’t sure there would be even more ways to utterly loathe the giant douchebag, but there we go.
Blame the lesbian for existing, and belittle being kidnapped and shot at, while going on about how entitled the women are getting, and you’re driving around in a gifted mustang.
Yeah. It’s Joyce and Becky that are “entitled” now. Burn in hell, older Brown sibling. I hope you enjoy Dante’s 6th Circle…I think this sort of action would fall under how Dante described heresy.
IIRC there’s a very low circle for betraying your family. I think that’s where John would fit in the best.
9th Circle is Complex Fraud, betrayal of family, but Dante’s version of betrayal was less this sort of action and more murdering them.
Toedad would go straight to 9th Circle. Jackass brown, even if mentality is similar, the action is not as “harsh”, at least to the eyes of someone like Dante.
It’s still unequivocally awful, though.
Given that, by Dante’s schema, people on the inner ring of the 7th Circle include the “violent against nature” (i.e. gays), I imagine Dante would disagree with you there. But I think we can ignore that fact.
John would end up in the 8th Circle’s third bolgia, where dwell those condemned for committing simony and other profiteers of piety. Simon Magus, who trade gold for holy power, ended up there.
In Dante’s time, LGBT would be considered sinners, true. It’s only recently that view has been changed since the spread of Christianity.
However, Dante considered the acts in addition to who they were committed against. Those who kidnapped and killed Boniface VIII Dante stated would go to the inferno, even though Dante considered Boniface as shockingly horrible. Doesn’t matter if Becky is LGBT or not a sinner, Toedad’s actions without repentance would get him sent to Caina as an action against his daughter. If it was towards a non-relative or someone Toedad did not have an obligation to, 7th circle.
My point was more that Dante might very well have considered ToeDad’s acts righteous, rather than worthy of punishment. He wasn’t intending to kill her, after all; he was trying to “save” her in his own warped way. I think Dante would agree that the act and intents were noble.
If you set that aside, yes, ToeDad’s bound for Caina.
True. Reading something from centuries ago, values dissonance is a big problem, you are completely right. Dante might have considered it so.
Actually, I think Ross would be bound for Caina. Paolo and Francesca were sent to the Lust ring for getting caught in bed together by Francesca’s husband and then getting killed before they could repent. Francesca’s husband, meanwhile, will have been sent lower down for his violent action, which he considered perfectly just and never repented for. Whether to the seventh or the ninth, I don’t remember, and I’m not sure it was mentioned.
Also, there’s the point that all sinners are judged by the ethics of their time; Cleopatra and Dido both appear in the Lust ring despite both being suicides because neither lived in a culture where suicide was a sin, despite that culture being “wrong”.
That would be Caina in Cocytus. He’d be frozen up to his neck.
That’s Toedad’s dominion, definitely. Straight down to Caina.
I think, as awful as Brown #1 is, according to the way Dante categorized hell and sin, he’d be stuck in Circle 6. Heresy, at least in Dante’s time, was viewed as something very differently than today. This was before the Protestant reformation, after all. Placing things ahead of the common good, ahead of how Dante viewed Faith, but most importantly–how it played out.
The way I’m interpreting Dante’s view…all of the fundamentalists of Joyce’s soon-to-be-former church would probably be sent straight to Circle 6 as false Christians, or to the Malebolge of the Simonists in Circle 8, for how they are abusing church funds.
Of course, I am not an expert, I could be completely wrong.
Neither am I, but you certainly seem to be more of one than me. I’ve only read La Commedia once or twice, and it’s been a while. I need to dig them back up soon, now that I think of it.
I still need to find a good copy of Paradiso, the person who translated two of the standard English copies of Inferno and Purgatorio died before finishing the Paradiso translation. Even then, it’s a hard read, just because of how many contemporary figures Dante referenced. 0_O;
I may have a good copy of Paradiso, but I just can’t get through Purgatorio. Though I agree with the 8th circle for John.
If you’re talking about the Dorothy L. Sayers translation, that’s the one I have. Paradiso’s last ten cantos were translated by one of Sayers’s friends and confidants who had access to her notes and had been “consulted” (I don’t know a better word for it) for the other twenty-three cantos of Paradiso. In my last reading, admittedly distant, I barely noticed a difference in quality.
Also, apparently Dante himself may have died before finishing his work, as there is a story where his son only found the last ten cantos (coincidence?) after a dream sent from his father told him where to look. Considering the era, it might have been media hype.
Awwww, did your little speech about entitlement and consequences backfire right into your face, John? Man, I feel sooooo sorry for you!
Riiiiiiiight?
Ah yes the trauma was all reasonable consequence for sinful actions.
Heck yeah, Jocelyn strikes back!
Wow, that was a sick burn at the end!
LGBQXYZ Yeah nice one john now your gonna start saying your a member of the La-li-lu-le-lo.
Who are the patriots?
Also, where the hell is entitlement coming into this, even from a warped religious viewpoint? Or does John just thing “being angry” is a privelege reserved for those 30+?
It’s what they call Millennials who would like anything at all, such as a living wage, equality, self-respect, not getting guns pointed at them, you know, ridiculous things like that.
Affordable anything, really. Health care, Post-High School, food.
Additionally it’s truly a struggle not to choke condescending older asshats condemning Participation Trophy Entitlement Culture Millennials when they were the ones handing out the fucking participation trophies to their kids and grandkids with smiles on their faces like what did you expect of CHILDREN? TO GIVE THEM BACK TO YOU?
This, everything this guy said right here.
You’re right, why are they bongoing about that “everyone gets a trophy” mindset when THEY were the ones giving out the trophies and raising us like that?
I once read a person making a fair point, that everyone told him to study hard and go to a good college lest he have to flip burgers, and so he did well in college, and when he graduated and doesn’t particularly want to flip burgers they call him entitled.
Like, constantly through childhood, they told him that flipping burgers would be super terrible and/or shameful, it was the great big threat for not doing what they wanted, and that going to college = great job, so it’s his fault for believing them.
(Of course, I always expected to be a starving artist, so poverty wasn’t such a surprise, but you know, different strokes.)
And even if he sucks it up and starts flipping burgers despite that stigma that’s been repeated to him his whole life, he’d best not DARE point out the problems with the minimum wage. To his parents (and grandparents esp), that wage was actually LIVABLE so clearly the problem is with these bratty, entitled whelps. What inflation is?
My favorite part of the hatred for “trophy culture” is the dramatic misunderstanding of it. “Everyone gets a trophy” doesn’t lead to entitlement. It leads to people who don’t trust positive reinforcement or praise and don’t believe that they earned anything because it didn’t matter how mediocre or straight-up terrible you were as a kid, you still got that positive reinforcement, even if you knew you didn’t deserve it! Why would any praise or positive reinforcement be different as an adult? You’re actually worthless and everyone’s too polite to actually tell you that!
OH MY GOD THIS. YES.
Children are a lot more observant of these things than adults give them credit for. And at a much younger age.
He’s entitled to be treated as the Wise sage because he’s older, male, and heterosexual? They’re NOT entitled (and thus Entitled with a capital E) because they’re expecting to have their opinions treated as valid just because they lived through the events.
Like most people of his ilk, words like “entitlement” don’t have actual meanings to him, it’s just a buzzword to describe “people who don’t agree with me”. It’s like “communist” and “fascist” in politics.
“Entitlement” is a phrase like “political correctness”, in the sense that although it does exist in a negative sense it’s more likely used by people in power to dismiss those who don’t have it but want to be treated with some sense of fairness.
People with a sense of privilege who think that because they have it easy everyone who doesn’t is a sponge, whiny or greedy, basically.
For John, Joyce is angry because she believes what hapenned to her and Becky wasn’t deserved, but for him it was a direct consequence of their actions (being gay, running away, helping to hide the runaway). It’s just what happens when you do those things, expecting to act this way and not suffer the natural consequences is Entitlement to him.
And now I need a shower after typing all this.
Basically, for John college should be like Becky’s, where bekng gay gets you kicked out. But it is like Joyce’s, where you get free pizza. “That’s entitlement”, says the man with the free mustang.
John confirmed as raging dick hole
When did human rights become entitlement?
To the people who had the power, pretty much always.
Pull through for them, Jocelyne! Stick up for your sister.
Also FU John. Being gay is not a trend.
“LGBXYZ”
Note the lack of the “T”
He probably figures the ‘Q’ would cover it all anyway.
Nah, John’s just heard the acronym tossed around, he doesn’t know (or care, I imagine) what the significance behind it or any part of it is.
He hasn’t cared about other peoples’ rights since the “T” got added.
I don’t think that John even knows what the letters stand for. He clearly believes it’s all some trendy nonsense that doesn’t deserve a second thought.
I have heard people say LMNOP, but they meant it with loving good-humour, from within the community, not like what John’s doing here.
Oh, he knows, or at least, he could easily learn. No, he’s not only being hateful, he thinks he’s clever, because he’s rhyming. I’m sure he was smirking while he said it. (Source: Two years of Pre-Seminary courses.)
D’:
It’s that little ‘heh’ at the beginning of John’s rant that really makes me detest him. As if Joyce had just been involved in some wacky college prank, and not, you know, a gunman who threatened her life and Becky’s. What a completely garbage human being.
This!
The condescension of that laugh, thinking it was funny that Joyce was so angry royally pissed me off. Then assuming that it was her immaturity that caused the reaction without ever considering what his reaction would be in the same situation. In short, he demonstrated how very little he cares about Joyce. Then he doubled down by rejecting the call for understanding because it was, for him, about the sin. And then doubled down again by assuming that being lesbian is a sense of entitlement and that what happened to Joyce, by supporting Becky, was a logical consequence and therefore deserved.
I’m so very impressed with Willis’s ability to write John’s lines because I couldn’t do so without veering off into farce. That he also set up the punchline for Jocelyn was genius.
Tell him, Jocelyn
“Consequences”. As if having your life threatened and bring kidnapped are reasonable consequences to being outside the heteronormative script.
To the Johns of the world, they are.
Or being homeless at 18.
Wow John is getting worse and worse every day. I am so angry at his entire existence, I am seething. I don’t even want to think about how he stands for very real, flesh and blood people out there, who think exactly these kinds of things and it just. Ugh. Makes my skin crawl.
But omfg, you go Joceylne! Sick burn. I love you.
So, grade A scumbag through and through. Good to know.
1.) Yesssssssssssssssss girl ♥
2.) Holy shit their church, taking from the poor to give out free cars is not at all Christlike
3.) John keeps getting worse and worse, bets for what he’ll say tomorrow?
3. Nothin’, he’s driven off and run over Joss’ foot on the way
“What do you mean Jesus said that it is the rich that should give their money to the poor? Show me where it says that in the bible!”
I was poor and now I’m getting money! It’s all justified by the Bible!
Puts me in mind of the Shortpacked AFD comic…
Pretty much.
Because I can’t resist such a setup:
Mathew 19:16-24 The highlights (ESV):
16: And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”
20: Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
21: But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
24: Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”
He’ll probably turn the heat onto Jocelyne somehow, for supporting the sinners, hopefully in a way that doesn’t take the wind out of her sails because Sassy Jocelyne is cathartic and amazing and I only want more of her.
Actually what I would really enjoy is one where Jocelyne just keeps burning him and we don’t even get a big John reaction bc who cares what he thinks, it’s just awesome Jocelyne All Day tomorrow til she drops the mic and goes back in to hang with Becky and Joyce. <3
DoA: super cathartic edition.
Okay, you were right, he’s just a dick.
So is John just going to go for broke and actually start dropping slurs tomorrow?
I believe that he believes himself above “that kind of behavior.” It’s not that he thinks it’s wrong, but he knows how it can be perceived, and has an image to maintain as a member of his community. But, behind closed doors, when he knows he’s truly in an echo chamber? Then, perhaps.
Oooh. Go Jocelyn!
So where are all those folks who kept saying we should still give him the benefit of the doubt?
Everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt. John proved beyond a doibt he’s a shitty person 3 comics back. Today’s comic lowered him to “self righteous hypocritical piece of shit” levels.
If last comic didn’t already cement him as a douche in there eyes they might still try to hang on in this one.
lol if there are STILL people defending him after today (tbh, after yesterday), I’m gonna fucking lose it.
There will always be people who’ll defend characters like this. There are three reasons:
1) They agree with them
2) They don’t want to accept that people like that exist
3) They’re trolls who just want attention and to see people fight.
Yeah. I just hope I don’t encounter any of these people because boy am I ever NOT in the mood or right frame of mind to deal with them right now. I mean, unless they *want* to get their heads torn off…. ^^
True. I’m honestly a little surprised that we’re not getting an avalanche of “what a strawman, no one acts like this” comments like usually happens when a character reveals themselves to be so awful as to be indefensible.
Not just surprised, but pleasantly surprised, which is nice, because I’ve had way too many encounters with this flavor of asshole to tolerate much of that malarky.
I believe that is because Willis has to approve the first comment anyone makes in the site before they are able to comment more, and it’s very likely that these people would start with “strawman!”
…sorry
Unfortunately I’ve seen enough of this world to know that there are still asshats who’d defend John. Luckily Willis is a speedy moderator so we don’t see as much of that here.
I was one of the people giving him the benefit of doubt, thinking he didn’t know the story at all, or new only oarts of what happend, or only got a one sided story from his mother. But no, hes just a homophobic, sexist, d-bag
IIRC a lot of people regretted it! Like, they gave him the benefit of the doubt as a human being, and then he crapped all over it, and then they were sad.
Well, benefit of the doubt only applies as long as doubt remains. There was nothing wrong with defending him prior to him doing or saying anything truly awful. Now that he’s unquestionably proven himself to be a dick, no one’s going to defend him.
I think the difference was that people who weren’t used to his style of behaviour —probably because it had never happened to them— kept giving him the benefit quite a bit beyond what the people who could see the red flags coming from a mile away, because they’d lived through those red flags repeatedly.
Me, I chose to believe the ones calling out the red flags. Turns out they were right too.
Personally, I was defending him a couple comics ago not because I didn’t see the red flags, but because I don’t like the idea of red flags. I find the idea of extrapolating a person’s entire personality based solely on initial impressions to be rather judgemental. Honestly, I would never be able to have any social interaction if everyone worked like that, because I’m not the most likeable person up front. Since people have the courtesy of not assuming I’m a total dick based on my antisocial behavior (note: I’m on the autism spectrum) I kinda feel like I have to extend the same courtesy to others. A lot of people can seem a little cold at first or hold one or two shitty beliefs and still turn out to be decent people overall, even if they make a terrible first impression.
Maybe I shouldn’t extend that courtesy to fictional characters, because they work by different rules and also don’t have actual feelings, but I dunno. Fiction is good training for handling situations in real life, so I try not to judge even fictional characters.
Like, this is a great ideal, and one I operated by for a long time, and then it got me into multiple abusive relationships and now I have C-PTSD and seeing people insist that red flags should be ignored in order to be, idk, humane and reasonable and a good person, is scary and shakiness-inducing.
And I say this as an autistic person, too, who often gets pegged as condescending and abrasive. It’s a really hard balance, and I don’t have a good answer. I’m just working so hard to listen to my instincts, which were trained out of me, and to learn that yeah it’s okay to avoid people who make you feel bad just because they make you feel bad.
And then there’s apologism and the superiority of “well IIII don’t judge so quickly” and general comment-section nature (although DOA is amazingly atypical), and it all turns into a giant trigger-ball of “can I ever feel like a person is sketchy without being a Horrible Judger.”
Of course there’s a lot of nuance to consider. I don’t believe any statement can apply to the entirety of human experience. “Don’t judge” is about as true as “lying is bad,” which is to say not always.
To say that you shouldn’t judge prematurely doesn’t mean you should try to be friends with someone who sounds like a jerk. There’s an in-between: you don’t need to assume either the best or the worst of someone, you can just be cautious until it becomes obvious which it is.
Yes, John did turn out to be a jerk, but that only became clear at the point where he got up and left. Prior to that, anything he said could be interpreted as tactless, poorly expressed concern. You shouldn’t assume that’s the case, but I don’t think you should assume he’s being dismissive and condescending right off the bat either. It’s what we call benefit of the doubt: just keep both possibilities in mind until you know for sure.
Ehh, I don’t have a problem with making conclusions based on your experience, as long as you’re not a jerk about it and as long a you’re very open to changing your initial stance given new info. People are judging *machines*, and learning from your experience is important.
Yes, you can, and I absolutely respect that. It’s just not how I proceed. I make no conclusions until I have enough evidence. I’m not saying that method’s superior; we’re talking about social interaction, not science experiments after all.
However, there were a lot of people defending John in previous comics (not so much now), myself included, and also a lot of people who were hating not just on John, but on anyone defending him. That I don’t think is fair.
Really simple? Most of them were saying “We shouldn’t ASSUME he’s an asshole. Let’s give the character a chance to prove if he is, or not.” And now, he has.
There’s really no hypocrisy in “Let’s at least see if it plays out like that. Well. Yep, it sure did.”
Doubt was given. He used it all up.
Some people managed to defend Toedad right to the end.
And I bet a few still do.
Willis left plenty of the room at the beginning for him to turn out to be misinformed, misunderstanding, misunderstood, or in some other fringe case not acting purely out of malice and dogma. I also don’t think there was enough evidence very early on that he was, in fact, unchangeable. But, the rate at which Willis is trying to torpedo any potential goodwill for John, I wouldn’t be surprised at any reveal of his wrongdoings at this point if they make sense in the context of the character. He’s clearly meant to have essentially zero redeeming qualities.
I still wouldn’t be at all surprised if the earlier speculation about Christi being Indian and that being a source of friction with his parents was true. It would be interesting if he was better on racial issues than at them, while still being horrible in many ways.
Oh god, it just hit me that John is my entire family. Just replace “it’s a sin” with “it’s weird”.
I found Carla’s next job. http://blog.caranddriver.com/this-is-the-design-for-roboraces-self-driving-race-car/?mag=cdb&list=nl_dvr_news&src=nl&date=040416 The cars are delivered minus software other than a basic OS.
Good lord, it’s like reading things my father has said but with religious fervor.
Also Jocelyne just got a new reason as to why she’s my longtime fave: she is a MASTER of burns
Ohhhhhhhhhhh
You tell ‘im, Jocelyne.
(And yeah, John, real life is hard. For example, some people get stuck with really shitty older brothers who completely dismiss the horrifying experience they went through because “real life has consequences” or some gross sanctimonious bullshit.)
Dumbing of Triangle: DAY 20
These triangle grins get more and more unfitting… wait, FREE MUSTANG!?
The car really needs a triangle on the front grill.
Lemme guess, you also want me to paint it red and name it Ultra-Car?
Why would I want to punish Ultra Car like that? A triangle would merely show how evil John’s car no doubt is.
Nega-Ultra-Car? We sure John’s car is evil?
I dunno, Jocelyne in that last panel…
Anything I may have ever said nice about John — I take it all back.
And Jocelyne earns ten points for Gryffindor for recognizing hypocrisy when it’s staring her in the face
Yeah, John didn’t impress very much. Or at all.
Even if you buy into everything he believes, even if you buy every possible excuse of working with partial information, trying to be pragmatic, whatever, he STILL got pissy with his little sister (a week after an incredibly traumatic experience) as soon as their conversation left the safest topics possible (running gags about Joyce’s eating habits), he STILL was incredibly dismissive about Becky (the friend-to-the-family-who-just-lost-her-parents-and-is-homeless), he contributed with nothing helpful at all and he ran away as soon as Joyce raised her voice.
Go John, truly you are a stellar shepherd for the troubled and lost.
Wait, am I understanding right, that John gets expensive cars based on money taken from the poor?
If thats the case, he may have just upgraded from Jackass to actually evil.
It’s a religious thing. Some big churches do that. For reasons.
He didn’t actually ask for the car, I think, they just gave it to him for being such a good little converter.
He abuses the brown people with smug detachment far better than most of his flock.
Honestly, I really love how you follow up his “entitlement” comment with the fact that he has a fucking Mustang bought with Church tithings, Willis. That’s honestly the last few previous generations in a nutshell.
Maybe not him personally. It may be the proper of XYZ Ministries.
“property”
That’s human history in a nutshell.
What I wonder, is if he went to India as a destination wedding instead of “missionary work” as he claims.
http://36.media.tumblr.com/3b7051c0a622e8cecc33f8bd8a09bc52/tumblr_nvgl1zHxgS1rblazuo1_1280.jpg?.jpg
Well played, Jocelyne. Now follow it up with the perfect heel pivot-turn right back into that diner so you can go hang out with Joyce and Becky.
Go read about the 3C church and other prosperity denominations. They preach the “prosperity gospel” (antithesis of what Jesus taught) and their pastors make boatloads of money. I’ll bet John is one of those men who will always ask for the pastor discount at shops, restaurants and garage sales.
The Prosperity Gospel is actually more offensive to me than Ayn Rand’s teachings as a theistic follower of Rabbi Joshua ben Joseph (which I say just to screw with my fundamentalist neighbors I admit). I mean, there’s genuine evil in the name o God all the time, but that’s just so…self servingly SMUG.
… I thought he wasn’t a rabbi. >_>
‘Rabbi’ means ‘teacher’, and this was during the rise of rabbinical Judaism. He can be one.
Jewish rabbis have been known to refer to Yeshua bin Yusef as a rabbi (which roughly means teacher ).
At least when it comes to Ayn Rand, she’s only economically reprehensible. Socially, she’s… Pretty good, really. Rationalist and libertarian on social issues, through and through.
As a socialist far left liberal Christian, let’s say me and Ayn Rand’s views on social issues differ.
I’m hardly in agreement with her either, but if you believe in things like freedom of speech and conscience and the simple right to be different without fear of state-sanctioned persecution, you’ve gotta give credit where it’s due.
I give credit to Ayn Rand for her Epic Burn on Reagan, I admit. Also, inspiring Bioshock and being a fairly engaging science-fiction writer.
She had her moments. I’ve not read anyone quite like her who offers such a soaring salute to the human spirit.
Wait, wasn’t she racist towards Native Americans or something?
Not really racist, but culturally supremacist to the extreme, to where it’s virtually indistinguishable. She believed they didn’t have property rights because they didn’t “use” the land, and thus this justified white Europeans in extirpating the Natives from their homes by whatever means they saw fit.
Did she believe that Natives were in any way inherently inferior, though? Not that I’ve ever heard. As she put it herself, “Racism is a doctrine of, by and for brutes.”
Well if she says she’s not racist, then…
I really fail to see the distinction in terms of reprehensibility here.
On that particular point, there isn’t one.
Rand did more than say she wasn’t racist, though; she dedicated a fairly reasonable amount of her writing on ethics and virtue to how and why racism was irrational and wrong. The Virtue of Selfishness has an entire chapter dedicated to tearing at the concept philosophically. Racism, in her eyes, denigrates humanity to a kind of biological determinism. You are a genius or an idiot on your own terms – and, really, those were the only things she cared about – regardless of your origin.
The problem is, Rand loved the idea of “progress”, and anyone who didn’t get with the program was backwards and stupid; a standard to which she held everyone. It just becomes most glaring and cruel when directed at minorities and peoples whose histories have been marked by oppression and cultural ruin. “Yes, this is the society that oppressed you and murdered your ancestors, but it’s got trains and planes and automobiles, so if you don’t get with the program, you’re just stupid.”
Empathy wasn’t her strong suit, but I’m betting you knew that already.
Rand blamed numerous problems that women suffered on, you know, women. Saying she was ‘good socially’ pretends that libertarians, as a rule, are ‘good socially’. No, they’re just the ones who get defined as libertarians by libertarians who at least claim to be good socially. She considered Libertarians to be hippies (Much like how Marx never once identified with Marxism), so calling her one ‘through and through’ is laughable in the extreme.
And you’re saying she said racist shit, so I don’t know why you’re wasting your time trying further. Like, you won’t identify it as such, but you’re saying she said racist shit, so. People who WERE geniuses among natives were roundly ignored, and white geniuses were glorified.
The only thing that gets my hackles up more is people who use their kids for proselytizing. If the young’uns want to participate in church/synagogue/whatever stuff, sure, but when you tell them it’s their duty and hang back because emotional blackmail of strangers is more important than your kid’s well-being…
Reminds me of John Oliver’s bit on it, which resulted in him setting up the fake church “Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption.” (Unlike the prosperity gospel churches, though, he actually used his money for a good cause- in this case, donating it to Doctors Without Borders.)
Oh for f**k’s sake, John, why do you have to be the absolute worst? I had hopes for you!
Joce is gonna have to walk home.
If only there was someone else with a car there.
Someone who’s also a family.
Someone who’s not a complete bag of dicks.
Someone who she can feel relatively safe with.
Someone she desperately wants to support.
If only…
;]
(>u<)
Now it’s been a long time since I gave an offering at church, but I thought it was supposed to be FOR the poor, not FROM them. Of course, if you’re going to skim off the top for fancy cars, I suppose it doesn’t matter who’s giving.
Yes, they do. But that’s not all of it. Some churches also tell people who can’t really afford it that they have to tithe. There are some churches that require you to give them your W2s and everything to even be a member.!
Plus, John is a missionary to India, which has a lot of poor people.
But thanks for catching that. I instinctively read it as “for.” Now the burn is on much, much stronger ground. (As tithes aren’t always for poor people.)
John: Listen, Josh, I’m ENTITLED to this because I don’t think I’m entitled to this. It was GIFTED to me by the church out of the goodness of their hearts which I KNEW about but didn’t EXPECT. That’s the difference. They, however, PRESUME I will be sympathetic and understanding which just will not stand.
Petition to rechristen John “Johnny B. Douche”.
Wow John I thought you couldn’t be more of an Asshole….I was wrooooooiiiing.
I am so glad that Jocelyne is calling him out on his bullshit. Its especially brave considering her own situation.
John: “No, they also gave me a private yacht. THAT is how I get to India, stupid.”
Amazing. John had already proven himself to be trash, and then he went and somehow managed to make me think even worse of hi,. And I hadn’t considered that possible before now.
You go, Jocelyne.
John responds saying “Some people joined the wrong church”.
Someone should remind John of Proverbs 16:18 (King James Version (KJV)) “Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.” His fall will be a wonder to behold.
oh ick. John is sounding kinda scumbaggy, aside from policing Joyce’s tone and not being emotionally supportive. what did he even want to accomplish during the lunch, if he wasn’t going to be there for Joyce?
Is John a minister because usually this level of corruption only follows actual members of the Church Hierarchy? This is a serious question.
Damn but that was good Jocelyne. Also, seriously, a damn Mustang?!? Is John’s church one of those Joel Olsteen style mega-churches or something, cause that level of corruption is pretty hard to hide otherwise.
To be fair, it’s very possible he works for the Willisverse of the 700 club where massive numbers of donations are sent to the Church’s missionary efforts where much falls off for plane fuel and otherwise.
BOOM
John is the kind of scumbag that makes me want to temporarily redact my “Pacifist to a Point” stance, and punch the ever-loving-fuck out of.
Don’t know about you, but my personal pacifism is not about never wanting to punch people; it’s about wanting it but never doing it.
There are days when the wanting is pretty damn strong.
Did I miss a Nazi joke? What’s that line in reference to?
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/roundtheclock/
She’s referring to Becky’s “Hitler youth” crack a few days back
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/roundtheclock/
Whoops, beaten to the punch XD
Did ya Nazi them all over the place?
Best prank ever: the Mustang is Ultra-Car in disguise, and she drops John off in the Amazon. Let’s see you spread the word of God to the jaguars and the venomous snakes.
Sweet-pickle-pies to the face!
Snakes: We are deeply offended that you are trying to burn us for being the devil! That was one book!! One!!
Well, it was in the first of seventy-three books and they never got their own character arc that explained why they weren’t that bad, so…
(I’m sorry if I’m wrong but I only cared about the bible when I was an altar boy at 10-years-old, and then it quickly faded…)
Zing!
Well Joyce missed her chance, but now Jocelyne can throw John into his car
I am so disappointed that, as the comic is generally grounded in these types of issues (plus Joyce being semi-autobiographical and Willis’s mom still being like this), it is highly unlikely characters like John and Carol will ever see the errors of their ways. DX
Joyce is the one that escapes, far as I can tell.
I sure hope that Jocelyne escapes! Because the only alternative I could see to that in her position is for her to, well, die.
(And, of course, Jordan has already escaped, it seems. Probably the most truly Christian of the bunch, given how much they dislike him.)
Now I’m picturing Joyce, Jocelyn, and Jordan’s family having thanksgiving in the future and one of the kids complaining that they invited Mean, Crazy, Uncle John.
And cheering because Grandpa Hank is there without mean Grandma Carol.
An everyone wants to play with auntie Becky and auntie Dina! They brought the cloned velociraptors and the youngest can still ride them.
Oh she will escape. I have no doubt about that. Hell, she’s already in the midst of grabbing what she can and building what she can before the inevitable skedaddle.
It’s not a matter of if, but rather when. And given that she’s hit her limit here. The when might be very very soon. Especially if she sees it as a way to protect her little sister from the rest of the family.
So after all this, let’s see how many people will still be up to defending John tonight, after this final display of his grotesque hypocrisy and contempt. He couldn’t even say ‘LGBTQ’ without intentionally changing it, to show his contempt for the very notion. “Her friend is swept up in some trendy whatever,” his utter disdain for Becky, the clear fact that he didn’t spend even a second, then or now, thinking about the fact that his sister was held at gunpoint by a man prepared to murder her in order to abduct his child so she could be tortured into compliance. All of that was just “whatever,” because he won’t, he *can’t*, countenance the possibility that they could have seriously gone through anything worthy of his consideration, understanding, or care. And the little thought he *did* spend on it led him to the conclusion, apparently, that she “should have thought of that before,” before coming out, before ‘deciding’ to be gay, before defying her father, before whatever hateful shit he was about to say.
This is the kind of man John is. I’m really waiting to hear what the defense of him will be, now. Or will it just be the fallback of “this is so unrealistic, Willis is just strawmanning christians, which he so *obviously* hates, nobody is ever like this for real.”
I’m sorry for being so bitter, here, but, seriously – people like me; gay folks, trans folks; have been in these comments sections night after night trying to explain that people like John are real, that they exist, and that they’ve made our lives a living hell even within our own families. That even now, people like John are trying to make it illegal just to *be* a trans person out in public, to even have a public life, by trying to deny us the simple ability to go to the frikkin’ restroom – but it’s like arguing with a brick wall, and even here, being shown a callous, patriarchial egotist like John, people have *lined up* to defend him, to construct arguments and alternate scenarios where he has a point, where he’s not wrong, where if only people would stop being so gosh darn emotional and listen. Even last night, people were explaining that he “had a point,” that he was just being misunderstood. Like, *now* do you see why that is and was always absolutely bogus?
I grew up surrounded by fundamentalists and most of them would have at least wanted to shoot (and kill) Ross for hurting their daughter. They also would have actually loathed him for trying to kidnap his daughter too at gunpoint to.
And that’s a legit thing. You experienced that.
Trigger warning for mention of sexual abuse and incest as well as mention of corrective rape as a “joke”
But they’re are so many of us who heard how we should die. How we’re sinners, damning ourselves. My southern Baptist family would have similar feelings to John here and my own feelings would be ignored. Once, corrective rape was joked about in front of me at a reunion for lesbians and those “fad following” bisexuals. In front of me. My dad was there, who had been suspicious abusing me since I was 6. His mother said this, after just that day telling me that the most important thing I could do as a woman was keep my flower until marriage. She made a corrective rape joke about lesbian and bisexual people. My dad, her son, my rapist, the person who “stole” my “flower” and made me feel filthy most of my life? He laughed.
So while I believe that the fundamentalists around you might not be this level of wilful ignorance and violent disregard for actually caring about people, and that’s great! It feels a bit like you’re trying to do exactly like the commenter above you said, calling out this as strawman arguments, as if real lived experience others have doesn’t matter because you know some who aren’t like that. If you didn’t mean it like not all fundies,sorry, I guys I misunderstood.
I’m actually attempting to draw attention to the sheer level of insensitivity and douchebaggery which is on display here. Hatespeech is hatespeech and there’s no buttering it up. However, plenty of fundamentalist do go the Joyce route and don’t act on their darker impulses and thankfully reject that portion of their view. The fact the Browns do not in the face of deliberate provocation to the contrary which would work on many-many members of similar sects is something I’m underscoring as even worse. I’m also in no way suggesting Dumbing of Age’s depiction is unrealistic. It’s dramatized but I have no doubt the Rosses can and do exist in commentator’s own lives let alone in reality as a whole.
Or, to summarize, “Fundamentalists tend to be homophobic. The sheer level of homophobia and hate on display here goes beyond that and shows it is something beyond even their religious beliefs justifying it. It is double-plus ungood and the worst of what is already a streak of religious thought I strongly disdain.”
heavy-heavy sarcasm on the justifying, FYI. Just want to be clear.
Gotcha. I wasn’t sure which direction you were going with it, but your explanation made it more clear thank you. And I agree. While Ross and John are not the only Christians, so often people let them get away with things while being silent, I’m just glad there are people like Joyce within that can say who’s hold up this is awful, stop! Even if it doesn’t work. Idk I dredged up more hurt than I thought I would and I can’t articulate well and I have typos, probably but my screen is small and I can’t see.
No one’s blaming you for the pain. One thing Willis deserves amazing credit for is the honesty of his web comic and I believe it’s really helping make the world a better place, even if in just a small way of showing it like it is.
A certain kind of person existing isn’t proof that another kind of person doesn’t. Yeah there are plenty of people who’d be flipping out or at least acting like Joyce’s dad, but there’s also plenty of people who’d behave like John or Joyce’s mom, I know those people. Hell I even know people who would think Ross would have been in the right to disown or murder Becky.
Your other comments hadn’t showed up on the page I had loaded up. Disregard this post
You don’t have to apologize for sounding ‘bitter’. It’s because their words are bitter and terrible and you’ve had to swallow a lot of it. I imagine Willis will be moderating like hell tonight.
Privileged people don’t want to believe that evil exists (because, wouldn’t it be nice if it didn’t? That would be great!) whereas marginalized people know for damn certain, over and over, that it does. Some people really are this terrible. A lot of them. A lot of them have serious political power, too.
Don’t like it? Well, this is where a call to action goes, but I’m not sure exactly what we can do about it (other than voting, and not being assholes ourselves). Thoughts for real world action?
I feel like this comic is often an education for people who haven’t had lives of awful surrounded by truly abominable people.
Like, if I didn’t grow up surrounded by fundie culture, I wonder if it wouldn’t all seem alien and unreal to me. Like, what? No, no one could be that small-mindedly self-destructive and awful, right?
I mean if you have access to the internet it really shouldn’t surprise you. Like everyone I know is totally down with the LGBTQ or knows well enough to keep it to themselves if they’re not but I know plenty of people for whom that’s not the case because I make an active effort to encounter perspectives different from mine. It’s just a matter of trusting someone else to know their experiences better than you do instead of taking the ridiculously egotistical stance of “Well, that’s not what I experienced therefore it can’t be true.”
I didn’t grow up with Fundie culture, and I didn’t find it hard to believe that this goes on when I started reading. Then again the comic slowly introduces it so you become more receptive to believing it exists as opposed to starting with John.
Effectively, those not surrounded by Fundie culture can believe it more easily thanks to escalation.
I didn’t grow up with bigots, but I did grow up with the idea that the world is vast and full of wonders and terrors, so many many people who believe/do such varied things. So, if somebody says they meet a person who behaves a certain way, I tend to believe them!
I think the fact that all his characters are so rooted in reality, believable, and understandable, even the ones that are consistently vile, is a real testament to the writing skill at play here. If people are willing to open themselves to what’s outside their experience, it is very quick and very clear to see that all of these characters are very, very human, and their actions tend to be drawn logically from concrete internal reasoning that is supported by their own written or implied experiences.
I really hope John’s car gets totaled in this chapter. Or like, he crashes into a religious billboard encouraging people to be kind and understanding. “God, I need help dealing with my sister and her heathen friend, please send me a sign!” How about STOP, buddy?
Dang it I can’t quite get my finger through the screen to throttle John.
BOOP BOOP
It’s better to hear wisdom from someone who orders from the kids’ menu that to hear foolishness from someone who orders from the wine list.
“Thus said the prophet and ate her Chicken fingers. Because they had not touched other stuff, which would have been an affront to the Lord.
Also, gays are totally OK, just so we all are clear on that. Anyone has a problem with that, huh? huh?”
~The Letters of Joyce~
The Apology of Joyce Martyr.
More leik whine list, amirite?
So is it now alright for him to be punched?
When was it not?
The previous strip when people were telling me violence is not the answer.
It’s never right to harm another person, with very few defined exceptions. But, I would gladly lower myself to a level far below what the world deserves of me to wreak vengeance upon some of these characters. I could live with being morally incorrect over it.
Why did the church give him a brand new car? I feel like if there is a “sin” around here it is something John has done like blackmail or skimming the top of the offerings given on Sunday. I just don’t get it. Joss is still neutral, which makes sense. Joyce is being treated like she is insane by her family, which makes no sense. Becky is happy go lucky but I think that is only because Joyce is there defending her. She feels loved, and protected in a vulnerable time.
It is clear that Joss is ok with the lesbianism. What is not clear is her full stand. I want to say she is open minded, and understanding since she is transgender. Possibly feels jealous of Becky for having the confidence to stand up for who she is.
I have yet to find a redeemable quality from Josh. I feel like he is one of those christians like the Duggars. They use it to defend their own hatred and use it to extort money from poor people.
You’re probably not familiar with the fact missionary work is often tied to the “televagenglist” phenomenon in some areas. Also, bluntly, ministers giving themselves expansive paychecks and lifestyles is nothing new. Skimming from the plate is a time honored pasttime dating back to Babylon.
Becky is not happy-go-lucky. Becky -acts- happy-go-lucky, but that’s her way to cope, to survive. It’s her shield against the world.
And yes, it will bite her in the ass, and yes, what she needs to learn is to let her guard down and let her sadness show… Hopefully that day will come sooner rather than later. Best case scenario is that she’ll cry and vent for an entire day with people she can let down her guard with.
I presume you meant to type “John” in your last paragraph. Other than that, you’re pretty spot on on what type of Christian he is.
I suspect it’s a bit more complicated than that. She’s upset about a lot of things but I suspect her happiness is genuine as she has shed a terrible weight off her shoulders.
Back in college, she might have had some relatively happy last couple of days, especially with Dina. And Hank hugging her and still treating her as family with just a touch of awkwardness was also nice.
Although the fact that she felt safe enough in the car trip to fall asleep was probably the best indicator that things weren’t looking so bad… at this particular point.
And then she meets Carol, and pretty much every joke after that is a shield joke.
Not at all related but I like drawing lewd to lighten the mood.
Billie’s Billies are powerful.
http://i.imgur.com/Yu5z0eV.png
Becky Boob Screen Of Death?
(Sorry.)
(Not really sorry.)
Nothing lighten up the mood more than yotomoe art, which has always been the best thing about DoA fan art.
“Billies’ Billies”. Yup, that’s the correct terminology.
And that’s the correct response of Becky.
You are a constant ray of sunshine, Yotomoe.
Billie used Lift Shirt!
It’s Super Effective.
Becky is now Paralyzed.
Yup.
Yakno.. you should have been supportive like that IN FRONT of those two. ITs good to try and help behind the scenes but you’ve effectively done nothing for them in the end
Jocelyn isn’t perfect, and she was probably really scared of directly getting in the middle of that fight. It’s much easier (especially for someone in the closet) to confront one person than to take sides in a volatile fight between two other people.
Besides, they haven’t left the parking lot yet. Personally I’m hoping Jocelyn gets a ride home from Joyce instead.
In addition to what Greatveiledbear said, notice she didn’t actually go for the “you need to stop being a bigoted asshole” front. Instead, she went the “you were harsh and are kind of a shitty Christian” route. She’s still understandably afraid to directly support a fellow LGBT person, because that could lead to accidentally outing her.
Waiting til they got out to the car allowed her to slightly shift the subject.
Exactly.
With a side note of not being able to take John doubling down now that he thinks he’s got a friendly audience.
I went though an entirely long-winded and, admittedly, excessively caustic in tone explanation above explaining why this is a tremendously unfair expectation of behavior from Joss. In short, we don’t know what her plans are for her life, both her and Joyce and even their shithead family have a lot to lose, and pushing even slightly too hard against this kind of thing can unleash a maelstrom of awful consequences that are morally despicable, but completely unavoidable. Joss and Joyce both are in a situation where they are actually under danger of egregious harm, bodily or otherwise, and holding Joss up to some kind of moral imperative to accept those consequences immediately and without any modicum of fully stable independence and control of her life is, at best, unrealistic for her character.
Also I just realized Joss included herself in “we should’ve been more understanding”
Is she blaming herself partly for John being a doucheface, or is this a tactic to try and bring John around to being less awful?
I think Joss is noting he didn’t do anything to defend Joyce or Becky.
Jocelyne is a she. If you’re confused why that is, I’d be happy to explain, but I don’t want to patronize you as it may’ve been a typo or other mistake.
I bet she feels bad that she didn’t speak up for them in the restaurant. I mean, what happened is hardly her fault, but she’s trying to do what she didn’t do in the moment.
My apologies as it was a typo. Joss (is that even appropriate for Jocelyn?) didn’t stick up for Becky and Jocye during all this but gave silent consent to all of John’s attacks. With very good reason and out of fear but enough to give reason for her to feel guilty.
Willis himself used “Joss” in the alt-text of a comic a couple days ago, so I’d say it’s fine.
Now, ‘Jocelyn’ isn’t. There’s an e at the end of Jocelyne’s name.
I hate English third person pronouns. It’s so easy to accidentally misgender someone with a typo.
I feel the content of this comment thread is a good detail to point out and I’m sad that a lot of people will miss it. I didn’t fully register it myself and it’s a very telling clue about how we are to best understand Joss’ inner turmoil.
I definitely read it as a tactic she’s using to avoid putting him on the defensive.
I think it may well be Josie (I think this is a better nickname for Jocelyn) is so used to being the “perfect son” to hide their true identity they never have been put in a situation where they have to stand up for someone else suffering from a similar situation. It’s probably a new and terrifying experience to be face with an uncloseted person on the spectrum who is facing all the things she was afraid of facing. With, well, good reason given Ross’ gun.
That makes a lot of sense to me.
I also like that you used the “they” pronoun. After all, we don’t really have any details about how they identify, which I hadn’t really thought about.
I think Josie is a heterosexual woman, which is why they like Ethan in a flirty manner but know there’s no real future there.
I admit, I’m just guessing here, though.
Yeah, I mean, I think that’s the general consensus, and from Willis’ extra-canonical commentary (I can’t cite anything specific but just like general tumblr/twitter stuff), it seems like that was the intention.
No, Joss is definitely a trans woman with she/her pronouns. Like you, I don’t have a link to Willis’ comment, but that’s the score. Also Joss is fine, it’s what a lot of people have been rolling with and it seems to be an appropriate short version.
Every time people say “Joss” I think “Whedon” and then start wondering which brother he is.
I mean, Willis has stated (both in the comments and on tumblr) that Jocelyne identifies as female, but I guess you’re right in that she hasn’t actually done so herself in-comic. But outside of it, it’s pretty unambiguous.
Willis called Jocelyne “Joss” in an alt text recently, so it’s probably fine. I do agree that “Josie” is cuter, though. But please don’t call her “they”; degendering a trans person whose pronouns have been explicitly stated is rude.
Oh, hm. But have Joss’s pronouns been stated specifically? I think Willis may have done so himself but not actually in the comic?
Given that Willis is literally the god of this comic, I think it’s pretty safe to take his out-of-universe comments as canon. He’s consistently called her she/her.
jocelyne’s a girl who uses she/her pronouns, so using they/them pronouns is misgendering. willis refers to her using she/her pronouns, so there’s really not much reason to use any other pronouns for her. as far as i know, there aren’t any characters in the comic who currently use they/them pronouns.
@charles – jocelyne is always a woman, no matter how she’s presenting at that moment. she’s just in the closet. i’m sure you meant well but please don’t refer to trans women as men (or trans men as women). :c
Discussed at some length in comments literally yesterday and before, but yes: feminine pronouns. She’s not out to anyone but Ethan in-strip, and not directly even to him, so there’s been no opportunity to see her using them herself, but Willis has been consistent from the beginning.
Also directly from Willis himself a couple of days ago (can’t post more than one link per reply or I get mod-queued).
I think she considers herself unambiguously a woman. Jocelyn is Batman while their daytime life as a man is their Bruce Wayne-esque disguise.
Sorry, I still don’t understand why you’re switching pronouns back and forth if you know she’s definitely a woman.
Am I? I didn’t realize I was. I think it’s probably an error by the fact I was thinking of Josie’s persona and referencing the disguise by accident when writing.
Sorry about that, didn’t mean to use wrong terminology and want to be very clear in my usage because the language here is deeply personal and I don’t want to hurt anyone.
Totally understandable!
It takes practice, sometimes. Good luck. My recommendation whether with fictional characters or real people is just take a little time and try saying it out loud a bit and get used to really hearing the pronoun and making the connection. Helps a lot and it’s good training for when a person in your life comes out as trans and you need to get their pronouns right.
Please don’t unilaterally change her name. She does not go by Josie, she has only ever been shown to use Jocelyne in comic, and Willis has used Joss. Neither has ever used Josie. (Which is properly short for Josephine, or a name in its own right – it’s not impossible that a Jocelyne could use it, but it’s neither common nor specifically used by this Jocelyne.)
Joc/Joss (same pronunciation, 2 different spellings) is the common short form of Jocelyne, there is nothing inappropriate about it.
These things are not mutually exclusive.
It can be two things?
I mean I think it was both.
Could well be.
Almost commented yesterday that John was a lot like my ex-brother-in-law. I was wrong.
He’s EXACTLY like my ex-brother-in-law.
I’m so happy about that “ex” there! So very happy!
And there it is!!!!!!!
oh_snap.gif
I had a feeling he wasn’t upset over Joyce’s angry outburst but rather annoyed that someone he sees as inferior to him dare talking down to him. Joyce is the youngest sibling and a girl so how dare she question her elder.
I do hope we meet her other brother, Jordon, in this chapter.
seconded :/
END HIM JOSS, YAS
This Dick is either missing the point or is avoiding it entirely because his arrogant condescending ass. His little sister and her bestfriend have a encounterthat results in nearly having the heads blown off and he decids not to care about it because the last thing he wants to do is sympathize with Becky? Fuck off this guy is more of a self-righteous condescending dick head then Jason.
And as for that last panel, really John taking money from the church? That just goes back to the question ” will a man rob God ?” Well apparently yeah some people would which reminds me of this:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml8bQDnnkKk
…. fuck you John
Wow.
Usually characters have to work to be this big a douchebag. John manages to just to exhale it with every breath.
Well, I’m glad we firmly established that John is basically the worst. At least as far as Joyce’s family is concerned ^^
So a bunch of people have noticed the “T” got left out. Anyone else think that might be the reason Jocelyne said something? Last straw and all that?
The Y stands for allY, right?
Slow clap.
I did sort of ugly-laugh at this comment, so kudos.
LGBQXYZ
interseX
allY
tranZgender
The last is p much the same as transgender, except it involves pizza, mountain dew, and skateboards.
i love this.
Also, X-Y-Z, phew, thank god there’s only 26 kinds of sinners, it’s so hard to keep track of them all
Go ahead, Jocelyne. Say those things you can’t take back. Get it over with, you’ll feel better. Just like ripping off a bandaid.
Real life is hard? Says someone who’s never had a gun pointed at his face. Someone who’s never been drugged as the precursor to being raped. Gah, Willis, you invented this guy to put these hateable thoughts out in the storyline and I know that… BUT I HATE HIM SO MUCH.
Gosh, no we wouldn’t want to feel ENTITLED, would we, John?
GAH I can’t get over how angry this massive dickface makes me. ‘sin’ and ‘entitlement’ and all these fucking words that lgbtq+ kids hear alllll the time to invalidate their identities and belittle them and fuccccckkkkk this shit.
I can only ever say thanks to the universe that my family and my friends were not like this and I’ve had a relatively easy time being a queer kid, teenager and adult (tbh adult is the hardest one, thanks to my mental health issues that had nothing to do w/ my sexuality). Goddamn. Bless you, family. I’m not even all that close to my family and we’ve def had some MAJOR issues and I didn’t have a peachy childhood, but they never gave me shit about this.
Hearing from so many of my friends how fucking brutal it can be and how horrific their families or so-called friends reacted they came out, I can only say I’m grateful. It’s so rough. My heart bleeds for everyone who had to go through this :3
Man. Some people are just human garbage.
same. i’ve had it easy compared to other queer folks. i mean, for a while i didn’t know bisexuality was a thing, but i don’t think i ever felt self hatred or shame for my attraction to anyone.
admittedly, realizing i’m trans hasn’t been as easy, and my mom shut me down and invalidated me when i tried to come out to her, and i’m still plagued with self doubts about that, but i haven’t been kicked out or assaulted.
it’s my relatively easy journey that makes me so outspoken. i want to make things better for people who’ve had it worse than me.
[Me, a cis person, reading]
“i’ve had it easy compared to other queer folks (…) shut me down and invalidated (…) haven’t been kicked out or assaulted”
*weak voice* “well… congratulations for your relatively easy journey. I suppose I’ll just solider on in a society that confirms and celebrates my gender identity at every turn…. um… high five?”
No, seriously. Thanks for speaking out and thanks for making things better.
high five indeed
same. i’ve had a relatively easy time as a bi/gay/whatever person and even as a trans person – never been assaulted or kicked out, and not had self hatred driven into me every single day. that’s why i’m so passionate about speaking out for the people who’ve had it shittier than me.
“I’ve had it relatively easy as a trans person”
“never been assaulted or kicked out”
I fucking HATE that that is our standard of “relatively easy”. I mean, I know it is, and I’m also on the “relatively easy” end of the spectrum of how I’ve been treated as a trans person, but it’s just so fucked up that I’m like “oh hey, one of my parents is only *emotionally* abusive, but I’ve got it good compared to most trans people”.
yeah, it’s very fucked up…
Honestly, how easy it’s been for me when it comes to my family makes me all the more enraged on the part of people it’s not easy for because I can see how simple it is to just be supportive of your alleged loved ones.
Uggggggh I am getting so goddamn angry. I want Jocelyne to take him down about twelve pegs, but I can understand why she would feel unsafe to do so. Her last-panel jab is nice, though. I’m sort of hoping she’ll turn around and go back to Joyce and Becky and they can have a nice lunch together.
Thank you so much for understanding how unsafe a situation this is for the girls. So many people are so desperate for the call to action to be answered immediately that they have lost sight of just how serious the options they want the characters to take actually are.
Oh, this guy. Not only is he a Smug Christian Asshole, he’s a Bootstrap SCA. It’s bad enough when the Osteens and Jakes of the world pull this shit, but he’s a missionary. If anyone ought to understand social injustice…but no, he EARNED his, right? And he thinks he’s saving people, when he is, as the quote goes, the single greatest cause of atheism in the world today.
John thinks that the consequences of choosing to get swept up in this gay fad (because it’s a trendy thing to do rather than an actual sexual identity amirite??) is having your father kidnap you at gunpoint.
It’s fucking scary how he’s wording this: it’s as if Becky had chosen to illegally download a movie off the internet and then she had gotten a fine for getting caught. Gives us an insight in how John thinks being gay works and damn that’s not okay by a long shot.
Ooooh gurl, preach him straight to hell!
READ the bongo, Joss. <3
Well, guess I should write part 2 of the story I started yesterday, for the one you that actually gives a fuck (the one is me), However I will go back to the script format, as I’ve realized the novel format might be annoying to read on here. HELP ME DECIDE!
Jocelyne: He was trying to protect you!
Old Lady: From who!?
Jocelyne: From him…
a black cloud flew into the room and begin to take the shape of an old man, with a cane and hunched back.
Old Man Johnson: This house will be mine Edith!
Jocelyne: Though that’s her name (she thought)
Edith: You never got this house when you were alive, and you won’t get it now!
Jocelyne jumped to the side and pulled out a small bag of salt. She quickly undid the knot and tossed it.
Johnson: Salt eh, your going to have to do better then that!
Jocelyne: I can, Magic bullet motherfucker!
Jocelyne grabbed her gun and fired a shot at the ghost. He quickly dodged.
Jocelyne: Wait a sec…you shouldn’t be able to move that fast.
Johnson: Look at what the powers of hell can do for you! It was easy to escape, I’ll I had to do was find someone else to take my place in the pit.
Jocelyne: And you chose…
Johnson: Exactly, the old bongoes husband!
Edith: oh my God
Jocelyne: wait…if I open a portal to hell. I do have some runes in my pocket
Jocelyn grabbed a few tiles from her pocket, and tossed them on the floor.
Jocelyne: Demons of the gate, I command you open the doors to oblivion!
A small portal begin to form
Johnson: What are you doing?!
Jocelyne: Sending you back, and hopefully giving the old lady’s husband a way back at the same time.
The portal begin to suck like a cyclone.
Johnson: No! Not when my revenge is so close! I will be…
A hand reached out of the hole and grabbed him by the ankle.
Johnson: Not like this, not like this.
He screamed as he was ripped through the hole, as it closed behind him.
Jocelyne: Phew
Edith: Oh God, that was my husbands hand!
Jocelyne: Theres still hope…I just happen to have one rune left.
Jocelyne winks.
Jocelyne: I’ll send you a bill. See ya around.
Jocelyne walked of again. Wondering where she’d go next.
You know, just a thought, not sure if people have mentioned it yet.
Joyce’s parents and Jocelyne still don’t know that Joyce and Ethan have broken up, or that he’s gay.
More potential fuel for the fire! More chance of sisterly support! More… Jocelyne/Ethan interactions?
I thought Ethan did come out to Jocelyne (after she basically told him she already knew)?
Ethan didn’t so much come out, as not deny it when directly asked.
‘I’m not actually gay.’
‘Oh.’
‘But you are, aren’t you?’
[Beat]
‘So then why the hell are you dating my sister?’
‘Solely to embarrass myself with her cute brothers, apparently.’
So John’s benefiting from seed faith? Or just basic collection-plate skimming?
Also, ugh, poor Jocelyn. Having to stay buried to avoid John and the rest of the family leveling those same accusations and ostracism at her.
Ugh, I’m a christian, but this kind of bullshit is why I’m not all that strict about religion.
Plus, my old church had a leaderboard for those that donated the most.
Yeah, it definitely made me disgruntled enough to leave.
Personally I just think people should be good to other people and that god will forgive the rest. Plus, if the more strict Christians I know are correct, it wouldn’t be a heaven without my friends that are ‘deceitful sinners’, they’re the most entertaining people and I love them to absolute bits.
That’s just my take though.
I’m not a theologian.
I kinda started looking askance when I got to “Leaderboard”. Unless it’s a scoreboard of how many people you forgave this week, or something, that’s just weird. “The last shall be first, and the first shall be last” was _not_ about racing!
The score board was basically the top 5 people to give the most money that week.
It was stupid and I’m never going back to that bullshit place. I’m perfectly fine being a Christian in my own home.
The Kingdom of Heaven was never about the afterlife. Judaism had no real such concept; the world you live in is the important one. The Olam Baha is here, and its time comes when all the world’s people are capable of entering it; utopia not as a place but as a people.
The laws in the Scriptures are not passcodes by which one enters some supernal eternity; they are guidelines on how to live a good and righteous life. The excoriations by prophets are reminders that you will never have a good world until you remember the basic rules: Give to the needy, care for your poor and vulnerable, and live selflessly for others. Since people refuse this obligation, the world shall always have suffering.
Christ carried on this tradition: Reminding people that until they give up the other things which they allow to rule their lives – lust for wealth, flesh, decadence, fame, even piety – they will not find peace; that salvation is first and foremost in this life; that the promise of liberation from sin is the promise that you can be a better person.
All else is noise. There is no other guidance on how to live your life in those words. It is only when you start getting to Paul that you start seeing increasing mysticism enter the texts. Personally, before I left the faith, I got the feeling that Paul hewed close to the definition of a false prophet.
That’s my take on it. I am… A dabbler in theology. But not much more than that.
I like your point of view.
I’ve read the bible (thank my dad for that he said that if I was going to be a Christian I’d read the book, which apparently so many don’t do.) I didn’t really analyze it beyond enjoying the stories and taking the ‘do good and be kind’.
I find myself agreeing with you.
I’m always glad to have a non-trolly conversation about such topics.
Have a read of the culture surrounding it, then. Even just an afternoon browsing Wikipedia can open your mind up a little.
Eeeeeeeeh, it’s a bit more complicated than that as resurrection is a thing into a paradiscal physical world. The concept of Heaven was also a thing which even Judaism had differing interpretations on before the New Testament where it was pretty much already firmly established.
It certainly is more complicated than that, but I can hardly throw it all out there at once. Judaism has a number of traditions – many still alive today – about the nature of death, including a kind of eternal union with divinity or cycles of reincarnation, but the most common strain of thought you will find in the Torah seems to be of a covenant between humanity and God that provides blessings in the here and now. The hereafter is not much discussed and, when it is, seems to largely focus on the resurrection of the dead.
Just the same, Paradise in Jewish thought was never really another world; it was this world, but free of sin and toil. Eden, the Land of Milk and Honey, all that lovely stuff. Again, other strains exist, but we can’t discuss them all or we’d be here all night.
But the refrain of the prophets is always the same regardless: What matters is here, now. Do good, not because it gets you some great real estate after death but because it’s the best thing for you and everyone else right here and right now.
‘We’re all equal in God’s eyes’.
But we like to keep score of who is more equal.
I actually know a preachers son who was “gifted” a Mac Laptop after he ruined his old one by accidentally pouring Coca Cola on it… From the congregation of course…
Give him hell, Jocelyne. I bet Joyce would be happy to give you a ride home.
Okay Willis. It’s been fun, but It’s time to kill this guy off now. Come on. You know you want too.
Seconded! “Rocks fall, everyone dies… except for Joyce, Jocelyne, and their father. Their father is wounded by the rocks, falls into a coma for two years, but when he comes out of it he sees the error of his former ways and they all flip the church a huge, collective, blue-eyed bird as they rock off into the sunset. And live happily ever after.”
Jordan has yet to exist and since he seems to be a Brown family Un-Person, I doubt he deserves to die.
*exist on panel.
I’d like to suggest Josie as the new nickname for Jocelyn as it works better than Joss, I think. On a related note, I think Josie is in a position which is kind of their own ironic hell. They’ve been Ethaning it for DECADES versus Ethan’s brief experiment for a month or so at being straight to get social acceptance. Josie now is witnessing someone who uncloseted themselves she’s giving silent consent to the persecution of–which is probably a scenario they never expected to encounter. It’s not just him that’s suffering from her refusing to come out.
Joss is presumably canonical, based on Willis’ use
Re: “I’d like to suggest Josie as the new nickname for Jocelyn as it works better than Joss, I think.”
Like Marie said, Willis used Joss, so it’s presumably canon. And, to be honest, I can see why Jocelyn would prefer “Joss” over “Josie,” at least right now? I mean, she can’t come out to her family, now or probably ever, but “Joss” sounds close enough to “Josh” that it’s not so jarring to hear when they call her that? I could be way off base, though…
Plus “Joss” flows from the pronunciation* of “Jocelyne” (JOSS-lin or JOSS-uh-lin) in a way that “Josie” just doesn’t, for me. As noted above, although Jocelyne hasn’t used the short name herself in-strip, Willis used it in the alt text for April 2 so I presume that’s the one she would prefer (i.e. it’s not just a fan nickname for her).
And variations on Joss (usually I would use Joc, same pronunciation) are pretty regular shortenings for Jocelyne besides
Copypasting from elsewhere:
Please don’t unilaterally change her name. She does not go by Josie, she has only ever been shown to use Jocelyne in comic, and Willis has used Joss. Neither has ever used Josie. (Which is properly short for Josephine, or a name in its own right – it’s not impossible that a Jocelyne could use it, but it’s neither common nor specifically used by this Jocelyne.)
Joc/Joss (same pronunciation, 2 different spellings) is the common short form of Jocelyne, there is nothing inappropriate about it.
Ack, missed your last paragraph.
Heh…no worries…it’s nice to have it confirmed that the ‘Joc’ spelling isn’t an idiosyncrasy of the one I know. >_>
Congratulations John. You just went from “dick” to “complete biased asshole”. At this point Joyce may be better off telling her entire family to jump in a lake and just leaving.
Can’t really be happening, as the comic would end, since Joyce would no longer be in school.
yesh hes a douche
Comic Reactions:
Panel 1: Yeah, sure, let’s just add some ageism into the mix, why not? Brother of the year here, everyone!
Panel 2: Jocelyne digs deep to try and find the strength to take the biggest risk of her life.
Panel 3: AIEEE, Willis is a future mind-reader! Also, so many fist bumps to Jocelyne for saying what needed to be said and highlighting once again the whole “traumatic experience” “nearly being killed thing”. It won’t work, because if John was ok with dismissing Joyce herself saying that she was nearly murdered, Jocelyne saying it isn’t going to do jack squiddly either.
Panel 4: Oh, John, you irredeemable fuck. Like, he’s just the embodiment of every asshole overprivileged conservative douchebag online. Right down to whining that the Millennials are from an “entitlement” culture because they feel “entitled” to not be hunted down and murdered for what they are.
And yeah, we already know he sees Becky as just a walking sin rather than a real person, but it doesn’t make him any less punchable when he calls the thing that lost her her home and her family her “sin”. Cause, of course, Toedad nearly killing his sister would never be considered the same level of “sin”.
Panel 5: I’m… there’s just so much concentrated FUDGE YOU, JOHN, I don’t know where to begin. The dismissive asshole method of shitting on the queer alphabet soup. Acting like being queer is trendy because people have died and bled to make society a place where fewer queer kids axe themselves before adulthood or hide themselves in a closet for life. The extra little bullshittery that is applying that worldview to Becky and how much she has lost because of her identity, but now, she just chose to be a sinner, because it’s so trendy.
It’s extra annoying, because I dated a bisexual for nearly a decade and there were so many assholes who played that “oh, you’re just doing that because it’s trendy” line on her and it never failed to piss me off.
There’s the “back in my day” whining that should be shot out of a cannon into the sun. And the “entitlement” shit.
Oh, we’ll get to that little shitstorm shortly, but in the meantime, just FUDGE YOU, JOHN on every conceivable level.
Panel 6: Oh, Jocelyne, are you trying to win favorite character spot back from Carla… cause you’re making a very good case, right now.
Also, of course he’s embezzling from the Church for his own benefit. Cause it was clear someone was going to be given what happened at Willis’s old church and what frequently happens at this big Megachurches. And he has the gall to claim his younger siblings are the “entitled” ones.
And oh man, Jocelyne taking that big risk, saying the first thing she can’t take back because she can’t take it anymore. And there’s so many reasons for her to do so here. The rank hypocrisy and dismissal, the knowledge that this rant would apply equally to her if only he knew, the fact that John is just utter shit of a human being and anyone who had to suffer his company for any manner of time would want to be well and truly rid of him.
But one that’s actually jumping out of me is just how much that “real life is hard” line must have grated on Jocelyne.
Jocelyne is a poverty level Millennial, working an unstable freelance writing job, surviving on ramen. She’s been forced into a closet while those she is with have openly mocked the existence of people like her, suffering constant gender dysphoria and having legitimate barriers to transition.
She’s also smart and has done the research. She has a job under her real name, so she already has had experience with how hard it is to get a job as a trans woman and has likely read up on our staggering unemployment rates, job discrimination, and suicide rates. She knows that in Indiana she can be fired simply for being trans and this time in her world, more and more states are passing bathroom bills to make it illegal for her to shit in a public toilet.
She likely has read up on the staggering murder rate for trans women and has probably read at least one story of a murder very recently very close to her and knows that she could easily be a statistic if her family turns on her or if a Toedad type at church decided to “take care” of things.
She also knows the economy is in the tank while all of this is going on and while she desperately tries to get self-sufficient enough to not be completely fucked over when she finally says what she can’t take back.
And yet some spoiled rich brat stealing tax-free income enough to afford fancy cars wants to lecture her on “entitlement” and “life being hard”?
Yeah, no wonder Jocelyne’s near perfect run of playing peacemaker finally gave up.
Cause. Fuck. That. Noise.
Also, FUCK YEAH, JOCELYNE!
Yeah,that “entitled” is hard to swallow, its just so… stupid and privileged and… entitled for John to say things like that, in righteous anger when he has NO idea of Becky’s or Jocelyne’s or even Joyce’s situation, when he did everything worse, only payed lip service to even TRYING to make things better, and then he drives off in his mustang to his house with his enormous wallet and leaves Becky and Joyce behind with NOTHING. (At least buy your baby sister some chicken fingers you smug fuck)
Jocelyne knows that if she gets in that car it will be another hour of listening to him blabb about Becky’s entitlement, and she’s not sure she can take that.
Technically I don’t think it’s considered embezzling if the church gives you something outright. It’s probably filed under “Aid for missionaries” or something, justified because it is aiding a missionary.
That said, I would be delighted to be proven wrong if it results in an arrest and/or the IRS coming down on John.
The irony of this ‘life is hard’ would almost be funny if it wasn’t soul-crushingly awful for Joc. He has no. fucking. clue.
If it were possible to fire linguistic constructions out of a cannon and into the sun, every variation of “The youth of today” would indeed be among my top nominations. It’s been shitting things up since I think the invention of writing (Seriously, some of the oldest translated cuneiform we have is people whining about how the youth are disrespectful; I just don’t remember WHO’S cuneiform it is exactly)
“Fired for being Trans”. It saddens me that’s a thing.
It’s a thing, and in most places, it’s a legal thing…even in most places where other queer folk get protections on that front (of which there are depressingly few to begin with).
No, the sad part is that fired for being trans is more common of a thing than being hired despite it. There’s a reason that sex work and alternative economy stuff are some of the more common employments for trans people.
And there’s a reason why Jocelyne is a freelance writer scrambling on the web rather than serving as a staff writer for a state paper or something.
People that are a part of the LGBTQA are just that, people. Those that so easily dismiss them, are not.
They’re still people. They’re just terrible people. Shit happens.
I don’t say this to defend them, so much as to avoid trying to segregate this shit. IT’s not something /those people/ do.
THIS to EVERY DAMN WORD
but also to add:
His pontificating on consequences in panel 5. It’s up to him — righteous, humble, doing-the-right-thing smugface John — to decide who should face consequences.
That sort of thinking leads to Toedad.
I’m so glad I stayed up long enough to see your comments tonight, Cerberus. <3 as always. So much <3
Nice analysis, but we don’t know if Jocelyne is a starving writer surviving from one cup of ramen to the next…we know next to nothing of her financial troubles or lack thereof
We’ve got a couple of clues. When she first met Ethan there was a comment of “I can help direct you to all the best and cheapest Ramen”. I believe there was a Patreon strip with similar implications.
This. The Patreon strip and Willis’s comments while writing it made it more explicit, but it’s been hinted at very strongly in comic that she’s living on the raggedy edge with not much of a safety net.
Wow. I didn’t think I’d be able to hate somebody in Joyce’s family more than I hate her mom, but bravo John, you just made the top of my list.
That’s a sick burn there Joss.
Also, John needs to get run over with that damn Mustang.
This is small universe syndrome but I want Raidah to be his sister-in-law so this can complicate Sarah’s life.
Oh hell yes, you go Joss.
I mean, I’m worried for her, but that was worth a fist pump. Also, John continues to be a raging asshole.
yeah! stab him right in the hypocrisy!
also finally figured out i’ve been using the wrong email for gravatar…i think… SCIENCE!
Wowwwwww, okay, so I now I don’t want to key this fictional character’s car, I want to force open the gas tank and pour sand in it. He deserves nothing nice.
No no, Remember mythbusters. What you REALLY want to do is put bleach in the oil tank.
What? No, it’s still a perfectly good car. What you need to do is forge the paperwork to donate the car to a charity that helps LGBT youth. Either he loses the car or will be viewed by the general public as a total dick.
which he probably is anyway but even more people will think it.
Step 1: Remove shoe
Step 2: Grasp handful of gravel
Step 3: Buff “LGBTQIAP” across the hood
Now John won’t forget!
real life is ha- bongo YOUR SISTER HAD A GUN POINTED AT HER YOU THINK IT WAS AN IMAGINARY GUN
aaaaand today I discovered a word filter. neat.
It’s a rite of passage
Mine was a trope being deleted.
Mine was equating sociopaths with assholes in an earnest but nonarticulate way.
This entire lunch has been just AWFUL for Jocelyn! Like, holy crap. That “I wish I had a sister” must have hurt deep, and, from my personal experience, Joyce not knowing it would be hurtful probably just adds more pain on Jocelyn. Right in the feels, as always, Willis!
I’m so glad we’re spending more time with Jocelyn and Carla. <3
It gets worse as Josie has to sit back and basically silently back up John lest she burn all her bridges, which may well be financial in nature as well as family-based.
Plus, a lot of trans kids from very conservative, strict religious families deal with a lot of internalized shame. When you get the message that your god themself doesn’t approve of who you are inside… that takes some time to recover.
she didnt seem to be backing him, silently or no
she kept trying to stop john from saying stupid shit but he didn’t listen
I thought the “I wish I had a sister” might have been pain with a tinge of hope that a confession to Joyce would result in gossip sessions while painting each other’s nails or whatever sisters who willingly speak to each other do together.
my sister is ten years older than me and I haven’t heard from her in about five years so I have no idea what Jocelyn might anticipate.
My mum really wanted a daughter. Would’ve had one if she hadn’t suffered a miscarriage. Well, she retroactively got her wish!
I hope that once the dust settles, Joyce and Jocelyne have as strong a bond as my mum and I.
I’m very sorry your mom had to suffer that and makes your two’s little inside joke that much more bittersweet (but with emphasis on the sweet). This and the other anecdote you told about your brother makes me appreciate your family so much.
Ditto! I’m loving this Carla and Jocelyne heavy arc to death!
And yeah, it was probably painful in the moment, but there might also be hope there. After all, her sister defied God for her lesbian friend, so part of her may vainly hope that maybe this means some love can be spared her way as well. Doesn’t make it any less scary or painful, but I think Jocelyne is looking way more fired up than she has ever been and is taking some big risks so might be up for the biggest risk of them all.
I wouldn’t consider it a vain hope at all I think Joyce as she is now would have pretty much the same response as she had to Becky: confused yet accepting.
now I’m wondering if Christi is real.
oh dear jesus, he married a girl named Christ
Oh dear Christ, he married a girl named Jesus.
Meh, that’s a common name around here. Only that Cristi is for boys and it’s short for Cristian while for girls is Cristina. And the names don’t have the letter “h”.
I wonder if Josie is financially dependent on their family as adding another layer of ironic hell to all this.
Her name is Jocelyne or Joss. Not Josie.
F**K HIM UP JOCELYNE
I have only one thing to say about today’s strip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZHvd0ks7Es
“Stupid little sister, ‘mIright, Joss?
“They just can’t get rational, manly facts into their tiny little girl brains, ‘mIright, Joss?
“Those trendy QWERTY-queers are the worst, ‘mIright, Joss?
“Some people just don’t know how hard the REAL WORLD can be, ‘mIright, Joss?
“They are just so very entitled, ‘mIright, Joss?
“…Joss, you alright, there, brother, you looks a tiny bit miffed…. yeah, I know. I can’t stand that little attention seeker either… AACCCCK”
Can you imagine the car ride over?
“So Christi was yakking my ear off, you know those wimmin’, amirite? And anyways, Joyce is being so uppity about this lunch, like hormonal much, yeah? Anyways, you got a lady in sights yet, bro? I mean you don’t want to grow up ‘odd’ like Joyce’s friend, right? Ugh, why do those people always demand special rights an-”
“Oh thank Christ, we’re here… I mean, aren’t you excited to see our sister?”
Oh lord, yes. And basically every other family gathering…
Honestly, extremly sucky as all this is, Jocelyne HAS found out that she might have at least one non-terrible family member, and that alone will hopefully make up for some of it.
Nothing kills your opinion of dudes more than being perceived as one of them and hearing what they have to say about women when they think there aren’t any present.
All the ditto.
…Bizarro John Brown, you have just leapt downwards in my estimation of you.
More like Earth-2, since Bizarros’ skin turns crystalline after exposure to yellow sunlight.
Earth-3, since he’s evil and calm.
I don’t recognise this Autobot.
That’s the point. Robots… In Disguise.
God, I hate you, John.
How dare you disrespect her because of her age? She’s fucking /eighteen/, and even if she was fifteen or twelve that doesn’t mean she’s not capable of being right where you’re wrong and that you don’t owe her respect. You’re a horribly arrogant adult and everything I hate about people like you.
Her friend’s ‘sin’?? Really?? I shouldn’t be surprised at all but nonetheless I’m utterly disgusted. I want to purge that word from the world. Sin is a weak word to describe things arbitrarily assigned as wrong by shitheads.
Thanks for butchering our acronym. It totally makes you look super intelligent and not at all like an asshole.
“Real life is hard; if you don’t conform to religious societal norms you deserve to be punished and you’re not allowed to complain even if your life is threatened. If you sin you cannot expect your family’s support or compassion unless you come crawling back on repentant knee. You may not have your own voice and if you try to speak against injustice you’re obviously a spoiled, entitled brat.”
Is that right, John? You’re almost explicitly denying your sister and her friend’s rights and personhood. Just using a bunch of euphemisms to cover it up. Why don’t you be honest: you’re a sexist, homophobic, bigoted jerkass who thinks children should be seen and not heard up until they’re grown men like you, because being an adult male makes you superior.
I fucking hate John.
All of this.
It’s honestly to the point where I think he might even be worse than Carol and I really didn’t think she was going to be topped by a family member.
Carol is at least less smug and doesn’t maintain this idea that being pretentiously detached from the issue suddenly makes you right.
I think someone mentioned yesterday that they thought that while they’re both horrible people, Carol is simply stating her horrible position by saying it outright. Which is still horrible, but at least it’s not hard for people to see her for what she is.
John, on the other hand, is stating his horrible position by not saying it outright, because he doesn’t feel like he should have to explain why he’s obviously right in the first place. And whenever someone says something he doesn’t like, he just deflects it and pulls out all the gaslighting techniques in the book to avoid actually having to argue his position. Everything to put down the people that should defer to him because he’s their better.
And he’s so good at them too, good enough to fool a lot of people that aren’t familiar with said techniques. It either takes having lived through them, or to just be a generally cynical bastard (*waves his hand*) to see the red flags early.
So yeah, I can see the case for John being worse.
At this point I think John grasps for whatever straw he can to explain away the fact that he got absolutely owned by his little baby sister, had no useful input at all and and did not begin to actually try to HELP her.
Fffffff….I was trying to reserve my judgement on John. It usually takes characters at least a couple strips to show their true selves, so I didn’t want to leap to conclusions, but god he is a dick.
John, you’ve known Becky pretty much her whole life and suddenly she’s just ‘Joyce’s friend’? A ‘misguided one’, even? You put down every subject change, and now you’re belittling your sister for yelling at you for belittling her, laughing about it, even, and saying that ‘college made her stupid’, basically. And that college has changed since you went, obviously, because Joyce is acting outside of your preconceived notion of ‘normal’ and ‘good’ and you never acted that way when you were in college.
The whole Brown family just reminds me of some of the people at my own church, which is troubling since the average age of our congregation is in the 60s-70s. They’re very old-fashioned. Nice people, but….well, you know. And it makes me wince to hear them talk about how they would pray for their roommates in college, and constantly ask them to come to church and come to know Jesus so they’d no longer be consumed by sin and I just……fff….I love you guys but stop it. Stoppit.
Not that it excuses anything, but John is a lot older, and Joyce has kinda said she isn’t very close to him because of that, so he may not really know Becky all that well.
Point still stands that he should know her name. But no, Becky’s been demoted to simply ‘Joyce’s sinful friend’. Like she’s lost the right to have her name used, as far as he’s concerned.
Man this guy is such a prickmuffin he’s almost parodic… it’s kinda sad to think that kind of guy exist for real…
God, I just realized John left them to pick up the check.
They didn’t make it to the ordering food stage of the meal. That’s how quickly things went belly-up.
Let me preface this by saying that obviously I don’t think Becky or Joss’ situations are fair or just. Something has been confusing me though…Obviously Joss has huge risks if she is upfront with her identity, but isn’t she independent? Unlike Joyce, isn’t she in a position out from under her parents’ direct control? Joyce was terrified that her parents would pull her out of school because of the party attack, an outcome she is currently facing now, too, because of her choice to stand by Becky. I’m having a little trouble following why it is okay for Joss not to speak up, (not about being female or anything), when commentors before thought it was very bad before when Joyce wasn’t speaking out, for fear of the very situation she is facing now. I understand why the sisters are making a lot of the choices they’re making, but I’m not really comprehending why the commentors are reacting as they are for Joss versus Joyce.
…Really hoping no one yells at me for missing something that must be obvious to many other people..
She’s an independent writer so, no, probably financially dependent on them. Hell, she might even live with them.
From Patreon, she does have an apartment, but I would imagine her parents still give her some measure of financial support, especially as she’s currently the favourite (“precisely because they know the least about me” – Jocelyne).
Joyce is in a bad spot. Largely because she could lose her entire support network and other badness, possibly even be cloistered in a smaller box if she insists on “being obstinate” about her “sinner friend”.
Jocelyne is in a worse spot. Not because they can take college from her (she’s graduated and has work… albeit low paying and non-guaranteed work as a freelance writer). But because the moment she comes out, she will lose her family.
Family’s like theirs do not passively “tolerate” trans kids. They view it as an extreme version of Becky’s “sin” and as such even more extreme methods are needed. The ideal end for her would be to be disowned and banned from speaking to any family members, because her other fate would be the same reparative therapy that was waiting for Becky.
She will at that point lose all safety net as her family will likely literally refuse to talk to her and will likely only talk to her to demand she submit to being “fixed” if she does need them for anything (including access to her vital records and so on).
As such, she’s in the midst of preparing for that as best she can, securing as functional and self-sufficient of a life as she can before she can’t hold it in anymore, because things are going to get close to Becky levels when she does come out.
TW: gender bigotry and slurs
Just to elaborate on why fundies don’t tolerate trans kids, consider the following common fundie “reasoning” on their existence:
1) Sex is a dirty, dirty sinful thing that you must only share with the single most special person in your life (i.e. your husband; note that a man who has premarital sex “makes a mistake” while a woman is “defiled, worthless”)
2) Gay people are gay because they’re so obsessed with sex that they can’t be satisfied with “natural” relations and turn to their own gender. This is an abomination unto God and they deserve every bit of persecution they get (up to and including death, depending on the fundie).
3) Trans people are so super gay that they get confused about which gender they even are.
Note the lack in all that of any concept of dysphoria or inherent identity and orientation; anything not cis/het/mono is rooted in personal sin and cannot be passively “tolerated”. Sooner or later it all comes back to fundamentalists’ obsession with Other People’s Genitals.
But I don’t mean about her coming out…just about calling John and Mama Bear out on their bullshit which she IS doing here, but when Joyce struggled with standing up for Dorothy and later Becky, many commentors were kinda mean towards Joyce. In that regard, Jocelyne had less to lose than Joyce, but she didn’t get a negative reaction.
As for coming out, yeah, that won’t do her or Joyce any good right now in terms of backlash; that part I understand perfectly and isn’t the part I’m confused over.
This is where it gets psychological. Because Carol and John’s view on Becky and the ‘righteousness’ of what Ross did is firmly tangled up with their religion, disagreeing with them on this matter is disagreeing with their religion and basically telling them that God is wrong (because there is no possibility whatsoever in their minds that they are not following God’s commands in all aspects of their lives). We know how messy that gets; some sub-groups actually consider suggesting such a thing an open invitation for them to murder you.
Well, the thing with that is that Jocelyne is really fucking close to coming out in any angry fight with family and so has been trying to avoid angry fights, especially about LGBT stuff in order to avoid “saying something she can’t ever take back” because all this stuff is really important and resonant with her and she doesn’t fully trust herself.
The other thing that’s in play is that both Carol and Joyce have noted that there’s been aspects of Jocelyne’s just general behavior and demeanor that has been enough to prompt worry. Whether it be Joyce noting how suddenly it was very important growing up that “proper gender identity” be emphasized for Jocelyne or Carol noting that “public school seemed extra evil” when Jocelyne was going through:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/squeezing-2/
So basically, Jocelyne’s family has smelled that there’s something “off” about Jocelyne that puts her “at extra risk”, which means if she were to openly support an LGBT issue or person, it could be taken as a bit more of a confirmation of what she is than if Joyce were to.
So, it’s a risky dangerous thing for her, sadly.
That all being said, what Joyce is doing is mad brave, especially since as a young lady without a boyfriend who is fiercely calling her lesbian best friend “my family”, she is opening all manner of speculation about herself for the Carol and John side of the family and by openly defying the family she is at great risk of being taken away from her support network and “protected”.
And the people slagging on Joyce back when she hesitated were not at all being aware or respectful of how much she had to lose by “defying her family” and how much she has been trained all her life to see that sort of action as literal demon infestation.
Thanks guys! Especially for the more in-depth on Jocelyne.
I’m not entirely convinced Jocelyn is in worse spot. Everything you say is true, but she’s got an apartment and at least some writing income apparently. Almost certainly a degree. She’s not at all stable, but she’s got something of a foundation.
Joyce is a college freshman, entirely reliant on her parents. Who are already talking about pulling her out of school. When that comes down to the big fight and she doesn’t give up on Becky, which she won’t, she could easily get kicked out to. If she does, she’s in even worse shape than Jocelyne is.
Jocelyne for who she is. Joyce for not knuckling under.
And after overhearing that conversation last night, with echoes of Toedad ringing through everything her mom says, she knows it and she’s terrified.
As I said yesterday, Joyce, take one piece of advice from your asshole brother. Think it through. Find copies of your birth certificate and SSN.
Yeah, but Joss could very well get another ToeDad situation happening to her if she comes out/is forced out. So while she may have an apartment (which she might not be entirely funding herself) and a degree (which generally doesn’t get you as much as it may have in the past if I am to take my friends’ at their words, and I do) she could still be in danger of getting outright killed by some fundie who just wants to “cure” her.
Joyce could be forced home, she could be abused, she all sorts of things and it is SUPREMELY difficult speaking out for family, especially when a blanket has just been taken off from over your head for years, but she’s not -most likely- going to be killed, nor even probably questioned to the point where they try and put her in “reparative therapy” like Toedad wanted to do to Becky.
Both were in scary situations. I have a feeling, both are going to do the best things they are equipped to do and everyone being hard on either one is really lacking in empathy IMO.
Joss is a freelancer with a liberal arts degree in the depression economy and also a marginalized person. In short, she is nigh-guaranteed to be poor as shit. Her dialogue with Ethan also heavily suggests this, so it’s almost definitely canon.
Yup, and she’s in a state where not only can anyone fire or evict her for being trans and no other reason, but thanks to all the professional anti-gay groups bristling over being called out for the RFRA in that state, the person firing or evicting her would probably be lauded by said organizations as a brave freedom fighter standing against trans tyranny.
It’s not going to be fun even if it’s very necessary.
Yep, Grade-A douchewaffle. So up his own butt that he dismisses his own sister for arbitrary reasons.
Doesn’t matter if she orders off the kid’s menu… doesn’t make her opinion less valid.
Boy am I glad my only sibling followed, “I HAVE NO BROTHER!” up with, “So what’s up, sis?”
One of the happiest moments of my life, after a brief instant of terror. Siblings, right? …Oh yeah. Some of them are like John.
Hang in there, Jocelyne.
that’s so cute omg
That’s an awesome story, I can totally see a sibling doing that.
“Huh, my brot…. SISTER (who would have known?) just entrusted me with something super important and personal. How do I show my support and love? I KNOW – LET’S MAKE A JOKE OUT OF IT!!!”
of course, it’s a case of knowing your audience.
Supportive family stuff for trans people always makes me smile! And I also really think that Joyce will be initially taken aback, but will make the right choice to support and love her sister in the end. And then she’ll be fighting to the death for two sisters.
Oh shit!
I want to see how John reacts to Jocelyn’s comment, yet from what I have seen I already believe that it will likely make the majority of people hate him more.
John isn’t going to get upset, because that’s not his way. But Carol will hear about this, and she is not anywhere near as diplomatic. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some chastising, or even some tangible consequences.
Understanding of WHAT?! How about understanding that your sister’s life was endangered? How about understanding she has suffered a traumatic experience that has cast her whole world into doubt?
But no, he’s so fixated on BECKY, he’s totally forgotten his sister.
He hasn’t forgotten his sister at all. His sister committed deliberate sins, and what’s worse, she’s ignoring the lessons and signs that God has deliberately given her to return to the path of righteousness. To him, that is far more dangerous than her facing off with a righteous man like Toedad. If she hadn’t done the wrong things, none of this would have happened. But her refusal to repent, and accept the error of her ways? She is straying from the path of Christ, and harboring dangerous, immoral ideas. If he actually respected her agency as a human being and weren’t writing off all of these actions as “some sort of rebellious phase,” his response would probably be much different…and reveal even deeper what a relentless scumbag he is.
Man I should’ve gone with working for the church instead of getting a PhD…
not sure if i’m really buying john’s ridiculousness at this point
If it increases, then I’d say there’s an argument that he’s hiding something as well. If it tapers back, then it’s just a fault in his personality.
I was positing a few days earlier than maybe, he was secretly gay and that’s what all this secrecy is about. A couple of days ago, that might have saved him. But the level of hypocrisy that would be present in him if that angle turned out true still puts all his conduct on a level of callous and reprehensible that isn’t easily redeemed. The only way left I think he could spin that kind of hypocrisy and get away with it is if it turns out he’s in the neighboring boat to Joss, and is much more dedicated to putting on the “no really I’m a perfect fundie” act.
I just simply don’t believe something like that is even remotely likely to happen, anymore. At this point we can convict him beyond a reasonable doubt as human waste, and only groundbreaking evidence to the contrary could change that.
How so? The prosperity doctrine crowd who throw expensive toys at their favoured sons (and skimming from the missions tithe is entirely an appropriate recognition of God blessing their work) is exactly the same crowd who erase orientation (and identity) as (a) worldly-trendy and (b) sin.
I get these folk in my facebook feed. If it’s any consolation, being directly affected via family is the only way I’ve ever seen any change.
(and to be fair, I could easily have wound up that way myself. I doubt I would ever have bongoed about entitlement while driving $50K worth of car, but I’ve seen exactly that sort in action.)
Oh good. That’s refreshing. I was wondering where the “Strawman” crowd was today.
I’m not sure if they meant they don’t buy him as a character or they don’t buy his behaviour as genuine and think it may be a facade.
A naive part of me just still holding out hope that there’s a reason for John being a jackass, aside from “he’s a jackass”. It’d be nice for Joyce to have a wider support circle within her blood relatives is all.
I mean she potentially has more than half if Jordan turns out to not be garbage.
John is reminding me of someone I played D&D with last semester, though only in intensity of flaws, not similar issues.
My surviving grandparents are devout Christians (to the point I can’t sleep in the same room as my girlfriend if they’re visiting) and my workplace is owned, managed, and 90% populated by Christian fundamentalists, and yet I still have not personally experienced any people that are deranged to the point this comic goes to. The only reason I can accept that people like this do in fact exist is because I’ve basically grown up on the internet and am fully aware of the level of idiocy around us, especially when it comes to religion and/or politics.
What I’m saying is, you dismissing people who have trouble accepting these characters is just as ignorant(willful or otherwise) as the people who think these characters are exaggerated. Either make a helpful comment or stay silent.
Wow, thanks for that. Either make a helpful comment or stay silent. That’s super inappropriate in this situation. Like, someone being frustrated to see what looks like a strawman argument (AGAIN) is the same ignorance that people who might be thinking something is a strawman argument posesses? That’s not– that reads to me like, “Yeah, but some black people are just as racist as white people! It’s reverse racism, but you don’t see white people constantly being ‘divisive’ about race, it’s always the black people!” And yes I am WELL aware those are NOT the same things, but it’s reading on that sort of level. Sure, absolutely there are fundies who aren’t like that, I’m really glad you know some! That’s good! And there are fundies who are and I’m really glad that you know that from seeing it on the internet and so You Personally Won’t Discount John As Strawman.
But gosh golly your comment just rubbed the really wrong. It’s not actually helpful, and it’s silencing of people who are Really Tired of others saying 1)People like John Don’t Exist or 2)It can’t really be That Bad.
It’s not ignorance that spawned the comment above yours, I Imagine it’s cynicism and sarcasm and frustration, just like what spawns my own comments.
W/E I’m out
As someone with a similar disconnect to the idea that anybody could be this genuinely awful to their loved one after they have gone through a traumatic experience; it’s real.
Our life experiences ain’t everyone else’s, y’know?
He literally does not care at all about his sister. Like, not even a little bit. Don’t even try to tell me he does. She got held at gunpoint and he’s just like “your life was threatened? someone you trusted pointed a gun at you? lol could’ve been worse! get the fuck over it why are you upset i don’t understand.”
what a dick
What in hell would have been this guy’s response if Ross had killed Becky and Joyce with that gun? It’s a shame they didn’t get a chance to repent but what’s God’s will is God’s will?
Good question. Ugh. He’s seriously bending over backwards to justify this.
That Ross has done the Lord’s work and delivered two beautiful girls to his bosom?
Probably that Becky got Joyce killed. Of course, he’d probably hate Ross too but the sheer lack of antipathy to him is as alien as Cthulhu to me.
So… here’s how that community sees this whole affair:
If Joyce had been shot, then that would be sad, but a joyous moment, because Joyce would be in Heaven with God and it would have been “God’s plan” that she die there and it would serve as a test to the rest of them of the importance of trusting God’s plan. After all, they’ll clearly see her again soon once the Rapture happens and God’s chosen are whisked off to Heaven (though maybe not this part, I don’t think we’ve gotten confirmation one way or another whether Joyce’s sect are Rapturists or not).
However, she didn’t get shot, so it clearly wasn’t God’s plan that she be shot, so she was never in any real danger, because God was watching out for her and protecting her against the bullet because of her pure heart.
And it’s actually worse that she wasn’t shot, because if she was shot, she would have been a pure soul taken before its time, but with her PTSD, Joyce is now all angry and defensively supporting sinners and defying parents and now her immortal soul is at risk of going to Hell and losing the path to righteousness and God’s love.
As such, the family needs to come together to try and heal Joyce and turn her away from this dark path before its too late. Because it would have been best for her if she had died at that fountain in the eyes of that twisted theology.
And that’s the sickest part of all of this. How that worldview makes it seem better that a person die than be traumatized and changed by a near-death experience. Because all that matters is riding out the clock to your death before you lose your innocence and “goodness”.
This has not been my experience. Sure, that’s how you might logically process it, using their beliefs. But one of the big things I always noticed was the inconsistency in the dying/heaven area. Death was still always treated like a tragedy, even though we were supposed to celebrate it.
I mean, think about it. If they did take what you said, then abortion would be the best think you could do for everyone, since fundamentalists all believe that babies go to heaven. But, no, it’s horrible.
If Becky and her homosexuality wasn’t involved, I believe the responses would be completely different. It’s the “sin” aspect that is making them all calloused. Despite “love the sin, hate the sinner,” there’s a whole lot of “hate the sinner.”
Now, don’t get me wrong. They’d still believe that Joyce was never in any real danger. But they’d be trying to comfort her, not acting like Becky deserved what happened, and Joyce too for trying to help her.
OK, that typo made me laugh.
Admittedly, I’m basing a lot on the flavor of awful Rapturist Pre-Millennial Dispensationalist Christianity I grew up surrounded by. Like, one where adults I grew up surrounded by literally said that it would be better for their son to be killed than grow up a (homophobic slur), because at least then his soul would be saved.
But that’s a sect that’s very convinced that the end of the world is any day now so it really is all about waiting out the clock and keeping your soul pure for just a little longer so you don’t miss out on Heaven (this meant a lot of pressure to abandon and treat shittily a child who “strayed” as unconditionally loving them could mean missing out on your ticket if the Rapture was to hit tomorrow.
And so for them, resisting abortion wasn’t really about the “dead babies” (not that most people who argue against access to legal, medically ethical surgical procedures actually believe in that) per se. It was more about the chance to openly perform goodness and thus secure one’s golden ticket to the Afterlife.
So publicly performing how much you hate abortion or hate gay people or support Israel or resisting the Anti-christ even though you totally want the Anti-christ to win faster so that you can stop running down the clock and just skip to the Rapture already.
But I agree that it’s not something that’s openly thought of outside bitter mumbled thoughts. Death would be mourned, it’d just have an air of “her time” and “God’s plan” and “wasn’t she so pure to be taken so young?”
And it just so happens that the reaction that she has lived is to assume she wasn’t in any real danger and that the bigger issue is saving her soul because it is at risk from supporting the lesbian. Carol and John won’t openly admit that they would have preferred Joyce to die (until the moment they consider her fully “lost” to the path of Christ), but it’s the general reality of how they’re different responses would have been to that circumstance.
Isn’t there also something about Joyce “taking herself out from under the umbrella of God’s protection”, by behaving in an “ungodly” manner when she “defied Ross’s right to enforce morality within his family”? And so anything bad that happens to her from that point on is her own fault for not trusting in God (who is assumed to be working through Ross, because bad fathers are apparently never a thing in that strain of thought)? Or is that the wrong flavor of super-fundamentalist – I recall that that one baby-abusing (what kind of sadist blanket-trains their child???) guy’s material was really popular in homeschooling circles, but… There’s a lot of things I find bizarre that are popular in those circles, and I often get them mixed up.
Thank you for communicating so clearly and thoroughly with so many people about these issues as someone who has lived them, it is extremely informative and your closeness to such problems makes your ability to explain them to others very easy to understand.
First Joyce, now Jocelyne.
These sisters be giving out third degree BURNS.
I doubt that Mustang was completely free. He musta sucked somebodies
So who is the worse Brown? Carol or John? I mean they have similar bullshit views but on the one hand:
a) John is /also/ fine spending more money than is required from tithes to the poor (Honestly I can understand needing /a/ car for missonary work… in India)- but why get something so expensive here in the US itself at all? Buy your own damn car for the US. You can get certain cars dirt cheap in India if I recall. Though I’m unsure as to the ethics of how they are made? But I somehow think John wouldn’t give a damn. Wow John.
But:
b) Carol actually raised this festering wound on humanity. I’m thinking she has a huge influence.
So yeah.
But amusingly she wouldn’t have had the only influence.
It’s kind of interesting to note too that people were kind of annoyed at Joyce being this ‘bad’ representation of homeschooled kids once- yet John who went to public school is the raging douchelord so far of the kids. We can’t be sure about Jordan (enemy of your enemy isn’t always your friend) but like we know Jocelyne and Joyce are decent people and /they/ were the homeschooled kids.
It’s kind of interesting almost how the more their mother tried to grasp at them the further they flew to ‘views’ she wouldn’t approve of. It’s almost amusing when looking at that strip where Joyce is listening in on her mum and dad’s conversation that morning.
Inspite of Ms Brown’s best efforts they became decent people.
Two very different takes on horribleness.
Carol seems to believe that she’s right even if her beliefs are horrifying. The petty spite seems a little hard to justify though, even within her twisted moral framework.
John is a straight up corruption of the views he espouses. What those views actually are remain to be seen, but it would be hilarious if they were more tolerant than Carol’s.
I doubt Carol approves of John, which may be in part why he’s like this. Jordan, the pariah, was actually the favorite of the family.
Was ‘Jordan used to be the favourite’ something from a Patreon comic? Because the only reference to favourites that has come up in the public comics is Jocelyne saying she was ‘because they know the least about [her]’. John has never been criticized by either parent, and the stated reason for his not being at Family Weekend was being too busy with/caught up in his marriage. (Nor has he been praised – just mentioned in a neutral sense.)
I don’t support Willis on Patreon (I buy the comic books though!) so I may have just gotten my info wrong. My bad.
He spent some of the money in a Mustang INDIA model, so its kind of right, and some of the money in the shipping to Indiana, just to show the people the blessings of the missionary life.
Probably just tried to get a regular Mustang shipped to India. Whole thing was a misunderstanding.
YES! I’ve been waiting for Jocelyn to chew him out.
Aaaand Willis touches upon on of the things that always bothered me with most Protestant Churches I grew up in and around. I don’t expect Reverends to be dressing in burlap, but it gets a little ridiculous sometimes. :/
When we found out that the family disapproved of John I assumed that he was unChristian and possibly sympathetic. The reality is worse. He tacks a whole new layer of awful onto the Brown’s vile strain of faith, which was at least sincere.
I was willing to give John *some* benefit of the doubt in terms of him just having a combination of male privilege and a blisteringly downplayed understanding of just what exactly Joyce had been through. This exchange with Jocelyn though shows that he is, in fact, a pure bag of dicks. Judge harder from your fancy-ass car that you in no way earned, jerk-wad.
Can I also add that Jocelyne was pretty smart here if she was going to call out John at all, well it was better to do it here out in the open then back in the restaurant- making John feel more cornered and possibly lashing out and things worse for everyone perhaps in the end. Clever girl. Socially very clever girl.
She’s establishing her lines while not risking outing herself, which she knows is dangerous- and she finds it wanting now to play nice now she’s more sure of how they’d treat her.
Someone said ’10 points for Gryffindor’ but honestly I’m more thinking ’10 points for Slytherin’. Jocelyne is like a ‘good Slytherin’ more than anything to me. She makes calculated moves. She has to really to survive. But she’s a good person. Joyce is a Gryffindor clearly or a Hufflepuff perhaps. John I feel is one of those Ravenclaws when they’re a douchelord. (I say this as someone constantly sorted into Ravenclaw on online quizzes). Or heck maybe even the Ayn Rand!Hufflepuff for all we know (given at least in fandom- the go to trait is ‘hard work’ that they value). (And I say this while I think of Hufflepuff as generally having the fewest number of douchelords compared to all the others).
Jocelyne is a survivor. Moral, yes, but at the end of the day, she’s a survivor. Which is a big part of why her conversation with Becky was all about checking in on Becky’s means of moderate-term survival.
Woah damn, that’s a nice car. You ass.
what I don’t understand is John’s “of what? her sin?” ‘question.’ does he really totally not sympathize with HAVING BEEN LITERALLY CHASED WITH A SHOTGUN? I reaaaaaally want to think that ahhhh maybe he just doesn’t know yet, or something???? or that the truth of it had been sugarcoated “well, ross went to go get his daughter, it got a little out of hand, becky’s still a sinner THE-END-FOREVER”, maybe?
seriously, without some SEEEEERIOUS way-too-nice stretches, there is NO way to consider what john is saying as remotely charitable, and yknow, fuck that, white christian dudes who have been given ‘stangs don’t need our pity!
How I read it is that John thinks that the whole thing is Joyce and Becky’s fault. Becky for “choosing” to be gay and running away to Joyce and Joyce for hiding her instead of returning her to her father so he could take her home.
Because Joyce flat out told him what happened last comic. Sure, a really short version, but still told him that she almost died.
Not a shotgun. A hunting rifle, of an identifiable make.
either way, it kills things and you never want one pointed at you
Specifically, a single-shot rifle. Absolutely the worst thing Ross could have picked if a mass murder spree was on his mind.
Joss confirmed for god-tier character, holy shit. I thought we would still be in the dinner with Joyce and Becky rn. This is literally everything I could want from a single strip. Fucking smack down.
Note: John is getting more and more obviously bigoted and hypocritical in this strip. Will some people excuse his blatant homophobia and dismissal of his sister opinions? I don’t know! I haven’t read the comments above me. Survey says probably.
And we frickin’ needed it.
See, I’m back to saying “frickin'”! Much better!
Ah! You’re going to make me feel bad about my language up there, I swore twice! My bad.
And her title would be… the Knight of Sass
I see her more of a Maid of Sass.
*crumples up and eats a long rant about character arcs and similarities and maid things and knight things and facades and transformations* *i literally just used a fake aspect why is this ‘not be an annoying nerd’ thing so hard*
YES THAT IS ALSO POSSIBLE
JOCELYN PULLIN’ OUT THE BIG GUNS AW YE
JOHN STILL BEING A SHIT-SUCKER FUCK HIM AW YE
Gee, John, don’t you know you can REALLY do the Lord’s work by coming back home and going full mega-church televangelist? I mean, that’s Corvette and Private Jet level Lord’s work right there.
…. you know those jokes that are funny because they’re true? The above is not funny for the very same reason. Humor is a strange beast.
“Understanding of what?” Understanding of the gun being pointed at someone and having verbal confirmation that he’s basically willing to start a bloodbath. At that point, it has nothing to do with Becky being a lesbian. In fact, replace “because Becky was a lesbian” with “due to a familial dispute” and try to legitimately tell me how you could justify that without making yourself sound inhuman. @_@
John is displaying a degree of self-awareness several notches below what I’d consider a person. Congratulations John, your shittiness has reached Toedad levels. You may not be as violent, but you are definitely as much of a pathetic moron.
OK, now when we have some data to work with…
Brown#1. “Dad”
Becky-action: Open up with a Joyce-is-a-picky-eater-joke. Signals that she is a the same old Becky. Asks him to allow her to take up space in his family.
Brown-reaction: “Of course Becky, Always.” Reserved but ultimately welcoming. Fulfilling minimum of basic humanity and then some.
Brown#2: “Mum”
Becky-action: Smile and nod. Say nothing. Have haircut.
Brown-reaction: “Why don’t you go and live in your father’s house because you are not welcome here”. Open, unprovoked hostility.
Brown#3: “Big brother”
Becky-action: Opens up with a hostile, crappy nazi-joke.
Brown-reaction: “Maybe you should think of things things before…” smug, condensenting dismissal. Victim blaming.
Brown#4: “Big sis”
Becky-action: Opens up with a hostile, crappy nazi-joke.
Brown-reaction: “High five”. Support, help, acceptance, general awesomeness.
Brown#5: “Too Jordon” (data missing because Jordan)
Brown#Prime: “Joyce”
Becky-action: Silly mindgames, surprise kiss, sad Beckyfaces.
Brown-reaction: “Pit you against anything else in my life. You will win every time.” Awesomeness off the charts, hearts swelling three sizes, acceptance, welcoming, Ross-punches.
Conclusion: Despite the subject being hotly debated in the comments every time Becky meets a new Brown, how they react to her say more about the Brown than about Becky. The three of them that has shown above-acceptable awesomeness have been able to excuse sass and rudeness from a scared, homeless kid.
Simply put, those of the Browns who do not allow Becky some leeway do not think she should take up ANY space in their family or in Joyce’s life at all. The “problems” Becky causes for Joyce is not by being too much Becky – it’s by EXISTING.
I absolutely love every part of this comment and I fully agree. How the Browns react to Becky’s openings really says more about the Brown family member than about Becky. And it’s the real moral test for the family members, even if they believe it’s a moral test to reject all semblance of her humanity.
If they can continue seeing her as the person she is, then they have a chance to break free from the poison they were raised in to a more compassionate and humane faith or non-faith. If not, they end up rolling in their awfulness and reflexive bigotry. All reveal their true personalities behind their masks of careful civility in her presence though.
Hank, wanting to do good, but guarded and prone to just disengaging from the true issue to try and appease everyone.
Carol, valuing her performance of “moral crusader” above all else, including the humanity of Joyce or Becky.
John, a smug piece of shit hiding behind a paper-thin mask of “civil tone”.
Jocelyne, scared, but supportive, wanting to leap out and reveal how similar she is in terms of being “family”.
Joyce, needing a reboot, but then more supportive than she could ever have thought possible.
Hell, she works as an interesting bellweather with a lot of people, which I guess is a lot like life. For someone’s true character, never see how they treat a social superior or a dominant group member. See how they treat the least fortunate. The homeless, the deeply marginalized, the visibly mentally ill. How someone reacts to those individuals says a lot about who they are as a person and their real character when the chips are down.
best
I can’t love this comment enough.
Okay, See, I was reserving my opinion on John. During the Restaurant scenes, yes he was a bit of an idiot, but well, he hadn’t really said anything that really merited hate. Stick up his ass? Sure, but the comments calling him shitface and similar were kinda Ott in my opinion. Now however? Rage ahead.
It’s… not over the top when there are warning signs. People in the comments were saying hey, x y and z action we saw in the dinner point to this character being a bigot. Commenters say they don’t want to judge him despite being pretty overt about his unwillingness to budge on his awful opinions, the worst being yesterday, where Joyce brought up that her family was defending a man who pointed a gun in her face and he called her a child.
Just because some people in the comments didn’t see the signs, doesn’t mean that they weren’t there, or that other people overreacted when they pointed them out. John’s behavior today shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone who was paying close enough attention.
diner, not dinner. no one can be inside dinner. well, no one should be inside a dinner
Or BE dinner, either. Or both, like turducken
NOT WITH THAT ATTITUDE
Logically, up until yesterday’s strip there was a viable possibility of John having false/incomplete information about the event (and it’s better not to assume malice when something can be explained by ignorance). However, yesterday’s strip voided the “Carol News Network defence” and proved that he’s definitely an asshat.
2 days before that John basically that said that Becky being unable to get her SSN because her house is locked up was a consequence of her coming out, and that she should have thought of that beforehand.
The signs WERE there, but like the person below me, many people didn’t want to see it, which is an irritating mistake at worst on a forum like this in regards to a fictional character. Real life though? Ignoring warning signs because you don’t want to see them can have serious consequences. That’s why all of the people who were in similar positions to Becky saw this coming from a mile away.
Of course you shouldn’t ignore warning signs.
However, while signs are a sufficient reason to take precautionary measures, they’re not proofs, and therefore not enough to pass judgment.
So, before yesterday, the correct reaction was “watch out, he can be an asshat”, not “fuck him, he’s an asshat”.
Maybe for you the examples listed don’t qualify enough for you to judge, but that’s a rule not everybody goes by. Moreover, for me, the difference between “I probably can’t trust this guy” and “I KNOW I can’t trust this guy” exists, but is semantical at best. The conversation was going downhill fast and it wasn’t a leap in logic to see John land headfirst into the bigot pile. The further we went in days, the sillier “Let’s just give him a chance before we pass judgement” comment became.
If John’s early, minority-bigoted comments weren’t motivated by deeper, below-the-surface bigotry, then where did they come from? Luck? Misunderstanding? Those answers don’t make as much sense as him being someone with beliefs that align with his mother, and would require more coincidence than the conclusion a lot of the other comments came to. So, in essence, they used Occam’s razor.
So, as I said earlier, those commenters were not over the top, since there were clear signs pointing to this conclusion. Also, as a bonus, they were entirely correct.
> Moreover, for me, the difference between “I probably can’t trust this guy” and “I KNOW I can’t trust this guy” exists, but is semantical at best.
That wasn’t what I was saying. If you suspect someone to be a bad person, you obviously shouldn’t trust him. Distrust is main of the “precautionary measures” I mentioned earlier, and doesn’t require judgment.
What requires judgment, on the other hand, is the overwhelming urge to punch John in the face we’re probably all feeling now.
I’d compare that situation to a criminal case: Whena person is suspected to have commited a crime, they are arrested to temporarily isolate them from society, but the punishment isn’t dealt until it is proved in court that the person commited the crime.
By the way, things he said in 1st and 2nd of April strips could be adequately and plausibly explained by ignorance. Yesterday’s strip mainly ruled out him not knowing what happened.
So, in the first two days, the Occam’s razor didn’t apply as much as Hanlon’s razor.
You’re kinda missing what I’m going for here. John isn’t a criminal, and judgement isn’t really a factor. The only thing I’ve been saying is that it was not an overblown or outlandish conclusion to assume that John was a bigot. We’re not prosecuting John or getting ready to sentence him, we’re making comments about who he is on a forum, so the analogy doesn’t really align since making calls about him here doesn’t hurt him, whereas the parallels you provided run the risk of harming him if he’s innocent.
Moreover, ignorance and bigotry go hand and hand, to the point where they’re often used interchangeably, so I don’t see how that can be construed as a different/better answer. He knows Becky is gay, he is told how things have become difficult for her, he is rude to Becky anyway. Ignorance or bigotry, John is not a nice person in this scenario, and this happened pretty early, so again, John being ignorant/prejudiced is the most logical conclusion.
John isn’t a baby, he’s a grown man. If you’re still that ignorant going on 30 years old, it’s as bad as malice.
It seems to me that the very best that could have been granted John, every step of the way, was that whatever he was ignorant of, who was smugly pleased to be so AND judgemental based on his suppossed ignorance AND … He knew the core points, yes? Becky was kidnapped at gunpoint, Joyce was threatened. What else did he need to know? The only thing he asked about was Joyce’s wrist and when she told him he sided with Toedad!!
podian –
He’s not someone accused of a crime, nor are comment thread participants in legal authority to harass him over our suspicions or to deny him freedom and a fair trial.
We’re just people with opinions about people and life experiences that make us more or less sensitive to certain flavors of bullshit. “Innocent until proven otherwise” when applied to the opinions people are allowed to have about a person or character can often be extremely negative, because it can overprivilege perspectives that have the least skin in the game as well as make our extremely flawed court system the final arbiter despite the fact that it often gets things wrong and thus minimizes those who are most likely to be hurt by social attitudes.
I’m thinking most specifically (in the real world) of people who try and pretend that people shouldn’t have opinions about a rapist or a hate crime offender until the court has had its say, despite the fact that neither is actually all that likely to be actually processed and denying people’s right to process their feelings of anger and hurt about abusers and recognizing red flags is an important part of activism to change that fact.
For a fictional character, like in this, well, it’s a matter of “oh, god this red flag or this annoying behavior” and reacting to it. And when people are like “nuh uh, you’re seeing things that aren’t there and you’re also being deeply unfair and a mean feminist” and all the stuff that got thrown at a lot of the people who were noticing stuff earlier, it gets kinda dismissive of people’s experiences and more off.
Like, one thing I belatedly noticed is how frequently white cis male characters who are tripping red flags are treated with “wait, hold on, there might be a convoluted way they are actually totally awesome” and angry calls to withhold judgement whereas victimized queer characters tend to get slammed for every instance of imperfection even though it’s not a matter of ignoring red flags, it’s just a failure to keep in mind their actual actions or circumstances.
Addendum to emphasize that there’s nothing wrong with hope and empathy and being willing to see the good in characters and hope that they aren’t as awful as they seem.
And I saw a lot of that too, people who were worried he was awful, but holding out hope that maybe he wouldn’t be or wouldn’t be as bad as he was.
But that shouldn’t be at the expense and minimization of people who are noting what he was doing wrong when his awfulness was subtler.
Yeah listen to Cerberus, who said similar things to what I said but more eloquently and with a more empathetic approach than my 6 o’clock brain. Well said!
Even the Carol News Network defense didn’t really work. He’d have had to have heard about this only from Carol, in a very truncated, biased form and then not tried to find anything else about it. The incident made the news.
Can you imagine hearing about your little sister as the victim of some kind of crime and not trying to find out more?
More generally, haven’t we learned yet at least in this comic, to listen to the people saying “I’ve been here. I’ve been abused by people like this. This one is scary.”
This is fiction. This is Willis. He’s not going to have a story arc where the brother is a condescending prick about Becky’s kidnapping and have it be a wacky misunderstanding. He’s not going to have an arc whose moral is Joyce needs to calm down and listen to her religious relatives. This isn’t that kind of story.
> This is Willis. He’s not going to have a story arc where the brother is a condescending prick about Becky’s kidnapping and have it be a wacky misunderstanding.
Wacky, not. I can totally see Willis making a dramatic misunderstanding-fueled plot, though. After all, quite a lot of stuff in DoA is essentially a case of Poor Communication Kills…
But not this one. Not a “Joyce’s anger over her family dismissing Ross’s threat to her and Becky’s lives is just because of a misunderstanding”.
Wasn’t going to happen. The condescending prick isn’t going to be in the right here. Joyce doesn’t have to calm down and listen to the menfolk.
Willis isn’t going to deliberately reinforce all the horrible tropes and mindsets we’ve been talking about the last few days.
I… honestly don’t know how did you read my comment, because I never implied that John was/could be/whatever in the right, or that Joyce “has to listen to menfolk”.
BTW, what menfolk? The bigots here are John and Carol, and out of these two only one is male…
Because that’s how the “misunderstanding” would have had to play out. Not right in the “Toedad was right” or even the “Your reaction was extreme” side, but in the “You’re getting angry for no reason”, “You’re not listening” sense. The tone policing. And I said “menfolk” because even though there’s only one man doing it here, it’s still such a incredibly gendered thing that doing it in this context would have to reinforce that.
Hey if you want dramatic misunderstanding then look no further than Danny hanging out with his girlfriend’s PTSD trigger while crushing on her ex-boyfriend.
How wacky!
@Podian: its safest to assume ignorance &/or malice, then you’ve got all the possibilities covered.
Yeah no, gonna disagree on this, even if you meant it in jest. Yes, obviously John would have to be a bigot, the narrative essentially dictated that fact from the beginning, otherwise there would have been no conflict. I also completely agree that the signs were there, willis wasnt exactly subtle in that regard. But call me naive or whatever, I will always try to Reserve judgement until I have clear evidence. Until today, his statements were kinda misinformed, hasty, and slightly condesending, but honestly nothing that earned him the vitriol we have seen over the past few days in the comments. Today he crossed the line by like a mile with that statement. I dunno, it just bothered me that commenters were so quick to fight what is essentially internalized bigotry with open hate.
Yesterday he walked out on his sister for complaining her family was defending someone who almost murdered her. Everyone has a different line that shouldn’t be crossed. Just because yours fell on what happened today doesn’t make other people over the top for seeing him for what he was earlier.
“Until today, his statements were kinda misinformed, hasty, and slightly condesending,”
You didn’t actually read yesterday’s strip, did you? Because “slightly condescending doesn’t even begin to cover what it was he actually did there. It really doesn’t. Joyce just reminded him what it was Ross actually did, and he just put her down with as many gaslighting techniques in the book that was possible to put down in one strip. He most certainly already crossed the line there -at the latest-; and most people who’s been on the receiving end of that style of BS (or in my case, just being a really cynical bastard) obviously could tell really early what was coming. I’m sure some of them still held out -hope-, and I surely did some of that myself; but I never thought it was going to be realistic that John would be anything but a real asshole.
People were quick to point out what he was really doing because he was putting up some fucking -huge- red flags. And now, even as you say you also realised that those flags were there, you’re -still- trying to blame people for spotting these red flags for being over the top and “too quick to jump to it”, instead of simply acknowledging that they were damn right all along; and that maybe you should’ve listened to them a bit closer in the first place.
Premature Haters of COMPLETELY Unsympathetic, etc, etc., etc. Brother John, eh? Are we worse than John himself? Anyway, I deny prematurity and jumping to conclusions. John was So Much a Dick/Douche/etc in EVERY strip that I disliked him every day for what he did that day. AND THEN he was even more of a dick the next dsy, so I disliked him afresh. AND THEN …
@EmperorNorton dued, I’m not trying to blame anyone! All I said was that some of the really hateful comments, which started right at the very beginning, were basically incredibly harsh considering thet John hadn’t really even done anything but criticize Joyce for punching someone. We didn’t know how much of the situation he knew etc. so what was happening essentially was vitriol for ‘someone he will probably turn out to be’. All I know is, when I have judged people too hastily in the past, more often than not I have regretted it. But whatever, this strip (and yeah you are right, yesterday too for the most part) kinda did away with the need for discussion.
@ Fogel “Are we worse than John himself?” what? Of course not, he is a bigot with a 14th century world view. There are literally Zero positive traits written into his personality, because that is who Willis decided he be. You are some real-life guy/girl who is probably quite a nice and non-judgemental Person, who might be a little emotional about a Webcomic. Do you honestly think that comparison is fair?
I mean, I saw the signs too, as far as 3 days ago, but I really didn’t want to think that John was bad cause before then, he seemed pretty cool. I was hoping Christi would be a dude, or something Carol wouldn’t like.
After that point, I was in denial of his shittiness, until today.
He never seemed cool. His very first strip had him trying to exclude Becky. First strip. First warning signs.
Sure, there were other possible interpretations, he could have come back from that and still been okay. But it wasn’t a good start.
No but he was being bigoted… In an awesome way?
Like a poor sweet summer child I was actually holding out hope that he was just relaying Jocelyne’s request, that maybe she’d want to come out to just two siblings at first. The hope lasted a while. ‘Bout a mayfly’s lifetime.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
What I’m hearing is “If I don’t judge her and treat her terribly she’ll go around thinking there aren’t enough terrible and judgmental people in the world, and that would be false seeing as I’m one of them.” What I don’t hear is any reason the world needs anyone like you, John.
I believe that John believes that Jesus called him to be smug, self-righteous, and, hence, judgemental.
Jocelyne? She’s alright. Would have understood if she just gritted her teeth and went along to get along, but instead she stood up and shut John down.
John getting called out continually is like my favorite thing now, that smug shitbag.
I chuckled when I realised that Becky went to Anderson, a strict *religious* college as I understand it.
John is so wrong on so many levels, Jocelyne needs to kick him in the nuts.
Verbally, she just did!
It’s entirely telling how Carol an John have both tried to elide over that fact because of its inconvenience to their worldview. Like, Becky was raised by someone so extreme in the “proper way” that she wasn’t even allowed internet or phone and went to her school in the proper, god-fearing ultra Christian place.
But acknowledging that would be inconvenient for their desire to think of queerness as being something picked up by exposure to degenerates in public schools rather than something that you are.
So instead she’s just someone who “jumped on the trend” in a “college”, all to justify viewing Joyce as in danger for being in public school and thus feeling it would be better to take her out and put her in a safer institution, like the exact one Becky got caught being gay at.
So, Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Queer, Xylophilic, Yurtsexual, and Zebragirl?
Xylophilic – Attracted to ents. Often closeted. Tends to date a human to hide one’s identity, who is referred to as a “treebeard”.
Yurtsexual – Attracted to Turkic nomadic shelters – a very tents existence.
Zebragirl – Transformed into a demoness by slamming shut a magical, ancient Babylonian tome found in the attic. Usually attracted to jerky men with angelic names like Michael.
In any case, missing -at least- T and A
I and P also.
Urn just like to refer to myself as “heterodivergent”
Does he *really* consider getting threatened with a gun to be a “consequence” of Becky’s “sin”?
Yes.
Not sarcasm, not hyperbole, not a strawman, not a dream.
YES, HE THINKS IT WAS BECKY’S FAULT THAT HER FATHER KIDNAPPED HER AT GUNPOINT.
HE EVEN THINKS IT WAS JOYCE’S FAULT THAT SHE WAS THREATENED WITH A GUN, FOR TRYING TO SUPPORT BECKY.
I have a real hard time wrapping my head about that concept but – unfortunately – it’s not an uncommon standing in real life.
See also: Carol’s comments before and during dinner. John is not alone in blaming Becky.
All this.
I mean, once again, in most of these people’s worldview, Toedad went to utterly heroic lengths to try to save his daughter from eternal damnation, the very last living member of his family’s soul was at stake, and for that act he unjustly paid out his freedom for his entire life, all because their juvenile and confused daughter strayed from God’s path under the influence of an irredeemable lesbian succubus. Someday, God will grant Toedad eternal life in heaven for following his plan and his teachings so thoroughly, and none of these people will ever believe he wasn’t acting out of an absolute moral obligation for his daughter’s spiritual health and well-being. He is the hero of this story. Joyce is the fool, and Becky is the Godless heathen villain. It is a great tragedy that Becky wasn’t “saved,” probably through means that most people haven’t mentioned because it would require a content warning longer than this entire post.
Yes, he evidently does.
Yes and that’s been the undercurrent of the whole diner conversation. Which became clearer and clearer throughout, though he didn’t say it openly until he was away from them and in company he assumed would agree.
What a fucking conga.
John, of course.
I could have been more eloquent and typed out a more measured response. But sometimes being succinct is eloquent enough.
Re.: Panel 4 — No, John, understanding of the fact that she’s traumatised from the experience of having a man who was an uncle to her in all but blood sticking a gun in her face and threatening to kill her and her best friend if he is not obeyed immediately. Oh, but of course, that was their fault too, wasn’t it? One of the ‘consequences’ that entitled little girls like them don’t understand comes with their actions and from which they have no right to expect protection.
John, my friend, it doesn’t fall to me to stand in judgement over you. However, you are beginning to read like one of the people who would plead with Jesus “Lord, Lord! Did we not do many powerful works in your name?” and he will reply “I never knew you! Get away with me you workers of lawlessness.” In your case, he will also add: “Still, you got a cool car out of the deal! I do hope you decide it was worth the price you’re paying!”
“Well, and sometimes these consequence include being kidnapped at gunpoint.”
This guy needs a reality check.
He is just so… what’s the word… ENTITLED.
I mean, hey, he lives life correctly. You sure as hell never see him ending up being kidnapped at gunpoint, right? Sure proof that God favors him due to his piety.
General McPentagon *peaks up from bunker*: “All right, Joyce and John are separated, I think we are in the cle…”
Jocelyne: [Sick Burn]
General McPentagon: “THERE IS SO MUCH FIRE!!!!!”
You win the internet for the day.
Remember when we were hoping Joss would come out of the closet at this diner?
Yeah, now doesn’t seem like a good time for her, does it?
NB : See ? Even Jocelyne thought it was a really crappy and tasteless joke.
Even Willis called it a crappy and tasteless joke in a blog post. And yet…
Everybody thought it was crappy and tasteless! Just sadly culturally commonplace.
Noooooooo. No. Not everybody. Believe you me, not everybody.
It doesn’t seem to have bothered John?
Seriously. Tho also
Yeah, I completely agree, it was crappy and tasteless. Becky shouldn’t have said it. Jocelyne did an awesome job derailing it without enabling it.
And even so, John managed to be the one to destroy the family lunch with his condescending tone-policing, not Becky with her Nazi-joke.
It was not only crappy and tasteless. It was crappy and tasteless and unnecessarily hostile, and STILL…
There was precisely nothing about it that was unnecessary hostile.
Crappy and tasteless, I’ll give you.
Unnecessarily hostile, no.
Yeah it wasn’t a hostile moral comparison it was an aesthetic one cuz of the whole ultra-Aryan thing the Brown clan has going.
“it’s not morally hostile to compare people to nazi”
uh, yeah, ok. no.
When it’s a joke about their APPEARANCE, no it’s not?
Oooh, did John really skim funds from his church to buy that car? That’s bad, John. Really, REALLY bad.
Also, now that I know your true motivations for the way you acted towards Becky, I can’t defend you anymore. I’m always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, until proven otherwise. And you, sir, have just proven otherwise in a MAJOR way.
No, no, John didn’t embezzle, that’d be simple stealing. Instead, he is an unapologetic, unabashed traveling mouthpiece for an organization so corrupt and distanced from its original teachings that it a) has the free funds and b) thinks it’s appropriate to simply buy him an expensive sports car. Jesus washed the feet of the poor, but John can probably just pay others to wash his mustang.
No, it was given to him by his church, bought with money skimmed from poor people.
No (and this is more worrying really), the Church’s administrators skimmed the funds. John just considers it a perk of his ‘calling’.
His “entitlement” for services rendered, if you will.
Ha! Hope John managed to get some burn medicine from the church too!
I’ve never seen someone win an argument that hard before. After inflicting that much ownage, I’m pretty sure Jocelyn should be taken up to Heaven on a ray of light, having at last achieved the true purpose of Man: that burn.
Saying “Real life is hard” while you click the remote unlock on your late model sports car is a clue that you might be a raging jackass.
what if you’re saying it because you have a horrible sports car addiction and are buried in mountains of debt, and you just bought another one and they’re gonna reposess your house, but you can’t help but press the remote on your new sports car
OH DIZZAM
Go Jocelyn!
OH SHIT SHOTS FIRED
I would like permission to copy and print the last panel of this comic.
This would be for the purpose of reprinting it and posting on every church billboard in my local area, especially the pacific island ones.
Huh. Apparently so far, the understanding ones in Joyce’s family have had blue eyes. Dad, Jocelyne, and, of course, Joyce. Though Willis could always throw us for a loop at anytime as well.
*looks at today page*
Yes, Operator? Dial the Angry Marines for me? I’ve found new recruits for them.
But I don’t mean about her coming out…just about calling John and Mama Bear out on their bullshit which she IS doing here, but when Joyce struggled with standing up for Dorothy and later Becky, many commentors were kinda mean towards Joyce. In that regard, Jocelyne had less to lose than Joyce, but she didn’t get a negative reaction.
As for coming out, yeah, that won’t do her or Joyce any good right now in terms of backlash; that part I understand perfectly and isn’t the part I’m confused over.
Where was that support and defiance during the last few strips?
Well… It was there. She was continually trying to redirect John and Joyce away from an argument and trying to support Becky. The problem is that John had his mission and Joyce had her new attitude. The consequence was that keeping the peace proved impossible.
Walking through the parking lot, Jocelyne suddenly realised just what an asshole her older brother was. This wasn’t miscommunication and it wasn’t misunderstanding. He literally thought that Becky and Joyce had got what was coming to them from Ross and had no sympathy for them whatsoever. It’s at this point that Jocelyne realises that John is a moral hypocrite and tells him so.
I’ve said this before but I’m pretty sure that Jocelyne is pretty scared of the consequences of pushing the more radical members of her family too far. I suspect that the cautionary tale of Jordan may yet prove to be the explanation as to why.
There’s also the immediate fear posed by getting involved with this conflict, especially when it was more heated. She had no idea what was going to happen, and as a closeted trans woman, she was likely worried for her own safety–for entirely good reasons! Now that it’s a bit after the fact and John is still just reaffirming what an asshole he is, she’s decided it’s worth it to say something. All in all, IMO considering her situation, she had no obligation to put herself in danger before (and like you said, she was trying to quietly help).
Oh, I’m sure Jocelyne always knew. He’s not hiding it, not from her.
She just couldn’t take it anymore – and had a relatively safe avenue of attack – greed and hypocrisy, much safer than fighting the homophobia. That could lead to questions and things getting said.
This.
Also, Jocelyne gave the man ample chances to not be a complete asshole, hell even throwing in a last ditch save face here with the “hey, maybe ‘we’ could be ‘forgiving’ of the sister who nearly got murdered by the fuckface from our church” bit in Panel 3.
John just rejected them all because he’s an asshole.
Joss: ‘The consequence of this conversation is I’m getting a ride with Joyce. Enjoy your filthy lu-car.’
This is interesting and I’m wondering if this is actually going to happen. Willis has previewed a scene that, IIRC, he called Jocelyn’s apartment. Maybe Joyce and Becky will drive ‘Josh’ back to ‘his’ place and the whole thing is going to come out.
I have a dangling, evidence-bereft theory that Joss is living in one big apartment of trans* people to account for her impoverished finances.
Welp, I stand corrected in my previous strip comment…
Call to screenwriters – title: Driving To India.
GO!
“Understanding of what? Of her friend’s sin?”
All else aside, YES, you’re supposed to be understanding of sin! Jesus said so!
(Not that this is a sin, but cripes, be internally consistent in your wrongness.)
SHOTS FIRED.
OTP INTENSIFIES
Whoa.
Oh-hoo… John, you don’t quite fit the poverty oath or maybe, should I say, humility, my man. Bigotry? Why yes, fundie culture at best. Real Life is hard, but it doesn’t excuse hipocrisy.
…I think Jocelyne has had enough. Like she’s not even focusing on what he did wrong, she’s just hammering “you are a fucking asshole” through his thick skull.
Ideally, they have a low key fight right now and Jocelyne goes back to rejoin Joyce and Becky
and comes out of closet and Joyce is so happy to have a sister and everyone hugs and nothing hurts ever again> low key fight
Make it a huge fight, ended with Jocelyne telling him “…and by the way, I’m a girl!” and going back to Joyce and Becky, leaving him completely shocked in this parking lot.
but this would ruin Jocelyne’s life, as he’d inevitably tattle on her to their parents, at least cutting off financial and emotional support, at most putting her in actual active physical danger a la Ross McIntyre himself.
Joyce, now… :]
Yup. Which is not to say it isn’t coming, because Jocelyne is, as you noted, had just about enough of all of it.
And it’s got to be infuriating for her as a person who knows that all these comments about Becky would apply very similarly to herself and yet given a behind-the-scenes sneak peek at the full level of awful because she’s seen as just being the “favorite” child.
But their dad though. He seems heavily accepting of the stuff that Joyce and Becky have done.
He’s still as low key passive as Jocelyne, but still openly said he was glad that Joyce knocked Toedad’s face.
“Heavily accepting” is a bit generous. “Learning to cope” is more his speed, which is honestly the best Joyce and Jocelyne can do right now. But I don’t think it will be enough. The idea of transness goes beyond simply “liking the same gender”.
Fair points,
Then it makes me wonder how much he’ll be able to “cope”. I mean, he helped make this spawn that turned out to be a daughter in a son’s body.
Like you said, he’s “learning to cope” and surprisingly well.
Time is coming when Carol and John are going to force him to chose sides. I’ll place a small bet if I can get decent odds on him jumping the right way, no matter how conflicted and pushed he might feel.
I just want to comment so that the counter hits 666.
It seems apropos.
Yes, I am pretty petty and spiteful to bigotry that way.
BUT FREE MUSTANG
I know right, totally worth loosing a sister over… or two.
I’d sell my soul for that mustang
Yea, I would sell my Sole too. (Kia, that is)
Once got flown to the West Coast for a job interview and was told to rent a car. I reserved an economy; they gave me a mustang with 8 cylinders and duo carbs. At the time I drove a VW Beetle which I took onto the highway by flooring it and praying. So when I was getting on the highway out of SFO, I floored it out of reflex. Id swear that I saw those elongated rainbow/spectra things that happen when you enter warp.
I wonder what the record is for the most comments to this webcomic is?
Someone had statistics about it at some point. I think “HOLY CRAP TOEDAD HAS A GUN!!!!” was the winner.
Well north of 1,000, possibly 2,000. Certainly enough that it comes close to breaking WordPress’s system. Willis has had to close comments sometimes just because moderating the oncoming storm is just too difficult for him to do.
Somewhere around 1600 I believe? It happened last fall when Ross brought out the gun.
“Deceptress” aka Ross Has A Gun: 1,602 comments
“Writer” aka Her Name Is Jocelyne: 1,441 comments
“Hit the road” aka Becky Dares To Talk To Hank: 1,021 comments
“Moral Foundation” aka Hank Thinks Hitler Was A Jew: 1,042 comments
So the previous comic, “Settle down” aka John Goes Tone Policing being at 1,056 means something.
I can’t think of any other comic that have passed the 1,000 comments mark. Even Sal’s “you are whiter, Walky” didn’t go over 700.
And of course, we can only guess at how big the comment sections of the closed comics like those around the Carla vs Mary arc would be.
If I remember correctly, one of the Carla/Mary strips broke the “Ross has a gun” record.
Though I think that was for comments that ended up getting banned, because looking back, it’s only sitting at 1542:
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/leverage-2/
Now, I’m just imagining how big the comment threads would get for a Becky/Carla/Jocelyne team up arc.
The Ethanny shiptease broke 1,000.
proof
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-4/04-the-whiteboard-dong-bandit/thoughts/
Often we have lots of posts when there is a controversy. Now we have close to 1000 comments saying variations of… “what a massive dick”
It’s rather refreshing, honestly. Yay, comment thread, good on ya!
So, with those links and the comic after this one being posted, the most commented are:
1- Deceptress (Ross Has a Gun), 1602
2- Leverage (Mary Blackmails Ruth), 1542
3- Trendy (this one), 1211+
4- Thoughts (Danny Daydreams of Ethan), 1164
5- Settle Down (the one before this one), 1065
So those two comics are on the Top 5. Impressive.
If I’m still missing something with more comments, please do tell me.
I do remember a moment when I regained my Christian faith, which ironically I’d been losing while I became more and more fundamentalist in behavior.
God spoke to me about 15 years ago and said: “Chuck, you’re being a homophobic asshole who hurts other people to make yourself feel good.”
After that, I’ve tried to be as un-Johnlike as possible. I haven’t always succeeded but the recognition kicking the ground out from others to make yourself feel taller was the root of my actions (and the local fundamentalist culture) really put a lot of it into context.
*claps for Charles, & his not being a homophobic asshole*
Yes, yes, I deserve a great deal of praise for that. Thank you, thank you. I get all the cookies for being the bare minimum required of a decent person. But to clarify, I wasn’t asking for the aforementioned cookies *crunches on his* but actually pointing out the attitude behind this is simple bullying I think. John wants to look down on Becky because he wants to feel bigger and badder. It’s spectacularly petty.
Or in short: For John to feel Good, someone else has to be Evil. It’s just he’d prefer that to be Becky than Toedad.
Which…fuck that.
This
I’m not perfect in my faith, hell no one is.
But I at least try to treat others with love and respect, even if their beliefs and life choices are different from mine. Because that’s the Christ would have done it.
In short.
John is an ass, and is probably going to hell.
John’s from the Love the “Sin”, Hate the Sinner stream of Christianity. Love the “Sin” because its a weapon you can use to make yourself feel all self-righteous. (“Sin” because I refer to i refer to what he says is “sin”.)
This guy gets it.
You can be a Christian and not a be a homphobic asshole.
Actually, that’s literally what being a Christian is. Love thy neighbor, etc. etc.
You mean…like Joyce?
I would love to see Joyce’s youth minister sit down next to her an Becky, after overhearing that conversation, and offer to pray with them for compassion and understanding, without recrimination or accusation. Not everyone in her family’s congregation can be a complete douchnozzle…. I hope…
There’s a text-adventure game called Community College Hero. In it, a teacher blatantly trades sexual favours for better grades and acts proud of it. I thought it had made me reach maximum hatred for a fictional character. I was wrong.
Oh, how I was wrong.
However, I now eagerly await Willis’s DoA-spinoff comic, “Joss Burns – there ain’t no sunscreen that’s strong enough.”
Didn’t quite pick up on it until now, but John’s a straight-up shitsoul.
I’m getting the feeling that the eyes are key in the Brown family. Big baby blues means they’re a good, chill person. Black dots take warning.
According to Word of Willis, the eyes (and the hairs) are gender-based. Kids get the hair of the same-gendered parents, and the eyes of the opposite-gendered parents.
wait but every one of Joyce’s siblings has blond hair, herself included. The ones we’ve seen anyway.
Or did I miss something?
Carol’s hair has been classified as dirty blonde.
It doesn’t help that her dad’s hair is also a similar shade. Joyce and Jocelyn have similar hair shape to Carol, a bit. It’s hard to know, with John being the only brother we’ve met so far.
Well, we know that black sheep Jordan should probably have his mother’s eyes, so who knows?
I’m just glad he took both of them, instead of just one. Really makes her life that much harder.
I hope you’re not right, cause that would mean the good in this family is genetic based which sounds dumb. Plus that would be way too easy an out when dealing with carol and johns awfulness.
Well, he isnt wrong about entitled university students. otherwise he is a first class asshole.
Ok… But, like, he is referring to “being treated like a human being, including the right to have emotions and not get a gun pointed at you” as being entitled? Not to say that negative “entitlement” doesn’t exist, but these days it tends to be a buzzword for any person looking to complain about millenials wanting to be seen, as, y’know, people. Or being able to afford stuff like food and a roof over their heads.
nice straw man, is it a hobby or do you farm?
Well, what do you think he means with college filling kids full of entitlement?
Funny thing, no-one in that meeting (and possibly the strip) feels more wrongfully entitled that Jonathan himself.
Also, can we please stop using “entitlement” as a bad thing? Words have actual meanings, and I, for one, am quite content in letting, say, Becky being entitled to not being hunted down by a gun-toting fundietard for being sexually attracted to girls, and Joyce being entitled to picking from whatever menu she likes the food best (I like apples AND oranges, so what?)
EXACTLY. Half the time, people who whine about “entitlement” are the kind that think they’re entitled to spew their own crappy, bigoted opinions without being criticized or challenged for them (y’know that “everyone’s entitled to their own opinion!” thing that never mentions how yes, you can have your own shitty opinion, but that doesn’t mean no one else has the right to call you out on it).
My only defence for this statement, “shitty opinion” is not something that can be 100% objectively defined. Now we all have an idea of what a shitty opinion is but sometimes what we personally believe is a shitty opinion, might only be shitty to us personally. Not saying that we shouldn’t call out shitty people and opinions. For example, despite me being a Christian, I completely disagree with John’s attitude and it’s not the way someone who claims Christianity should act. It’s appalling to me.
No, the dismissal of kids these days – like talking about the “entitled college students” of today as if they were so different from you – is wrong too. But I guess it’s an ordinary sort of putting yourself above other people, not first class asshole work like “trendy LGBQXYZ”.
It’s terrible as a blanket statement, but let’s be honest, there are plenty of “kids these days” who can properly be blanketed by said statement and do actually deserve it.
And so it has ever been.
Plato’s Republic: “the young men of the governing class, are habituated to lead a life of luxury and idleness both of body and mind; they do nothing, and are incapable of resisting either pleasure or pain.”
There are lots of people who feel entitled to things they shouldn’t. Thinking it is a problem of the young, though, is a problem of older people with no self-awareness.
True.
Perhaps a better statement would be “some people’s kids”
Which is a general statement I use when I see anybody being a dipshitted/entitled/arrogant dumbass, even if they are older than me. Lol.
did I say “kids these days”? nope. I said “university students” I did not mention a generation. nice try. better luck next time.
University students usually goes with Joyce’s age bracket, and most people talk about them as entitled the same way they do other millennials, like you see in this strip.
If you were talking about the handful of older students instead, congratulations for looking down on a different group than usual, I guess?
Oh oh, Joss. Better be careful. You’re starting to sound angry. John doesn’t like you when you’re angry.
Joss smash puny fundie?
No, don’t give him any ideas! Now he’ll request something amphibious and much more expensive for his next car so he can drive to India in it….
Grabs the hacked Muzak and plays “Fortunate Son” to John on a loop.
And Joyces family shrinks to Her (of course), Jocelyne, possibly the brother no one mentions, and Hank (despite never really standing up for his beliefs) as decent human beings.
Okay, I have to admit I don’t understand this mindset.
I can understand John being of the mindset where he tries to defend Hank’s attempt to abduct his daughter. He thinks she was living in sin and Hank was only doing what was best for her. I can ever understand John defending the necessity of using a gun, although I don’t see why anyone would think that was a good decision.
What I don’t understand is why John doesn’t get that Joyce might be upset about getting a gun pointed at her. This seems like a perfectly straightforward reason for complaint.
Ross. Ross’s attempt. Hank is their dad, and has shown a capacity for growth that Ross never did. (Nor Carol, for that matter.)
Oops, yes, Ross, you are right. I knew I should have checked names first. Hank is just a word I associate with a giant block of meat.
Well, the simple answer is:
1. She’s a woman.
2. She’s defending Becky
3. She’s put the Browns in an awkward position of not being behind Toedad.
Ross is a good Christian. Why would Joyce have ever possibly thought that Ross might actually hurt her? The gun was just to make a point, she was never in danger.
This is probably how John thinks about it.
And if she wasn’t sinning by defending the lesbian and defying Ross’s righteous authority, he wouldn’t have had to do it.
She may be upset, but she should have thought about the consequences of her actions.
I imagine he blames her for it. If she’d been a good christian and sent her sinner friend home to her father as soon as she showed up, instead of hiding her, things could’ve been fixed peacefully. Instead she and Becky drove a good christian man to an extreme, out of desperation and wanting to save his daughter.
And since the gun thing already happened and she wasn’t harmed, obviously any lingering ill feelings about it are just hysterical womanly feelings.
(Uuuuugghhh.)
Strictly because, if she hadn’t sinned, these tragic events never would have come to pass. If she didn’t want God to have one of his devout followers hold her at gunpoint, clearly she should have stayed on the right side of God, like her brother.
Joss is getting sassy.
Sassy Joss is best Joss, like No Fucks Given Obama is best Obama.
Jocelyne, this is why you’re my favorite.
Looking back at lunch, I realized whats been scratching the back of my consciousness: we didn’t see John and Jocelyne and Joyce and Becky greet each other with huge hugs. Did Willis just not show those OR do these folks not do hugs, even when 2 of them were in serious danger of being murdered?
Given how extremely touchy-feely both Joyce and Becky are…
…yeah, that tells us something.
Again, contrast with Hank. Hugs for Joyce. Slightly hesitant hugs for Becky.
I get the impression John discouraged jocelyn from hugging her sister, or at the very least, she knew that the conversation was not going to be a happy one.
I think some of you might find the following article published in the Guardian (UK) interesting:
Sin or not, BECKY COULD HAVE BEEN KILLED. I guess fundies haven’t heard of a thing called “basic human decency”.
They’ve heard of it, and decided it was one of those evil things that those deceived by Satan do, because otherwise it’d mean they’d have to be respectful to other people, and you’re saved through your belief not your actions. Making an actual effort is for those that don’t believe in Jesus (I wish I was kidding in ANY of that).
But it’s all moot anyway, because Becky is a lesbian and therefore not actually “human.”
Or a silly, immature, irresponsible, entitled college trendoid?
John makes my mind hurt.
It’s interesting. I was rereading the comic where Hank and Joyce were talking right before getting into the car, and Hank mentions how he’s been doing a lot of thinking and praying, and tells Joyce that she’s a woman now. It’s incredible (and rather sad) how her own father is capable of recognizing that she is an autonomous, complex person who is an adult, but her own older brother refuses to admit that (because it’d blow a hole in his ridiculous beliefs).
Oh yeah, I know exactly which comic you’re talking about without even looking.
And I remember saying then that while Hank still has a way to go, he’s at least -trying- to become a better person. He really is. He’s got a long, unknown path ahead of him, but he’s taken those first few crucial steps, while people like Carol tries dragging him off it.
And we see today just how much of a difference that really makes. Yeah, he’s not going to win “dad of the year” awards, but if we don’t reckognise his improvement, if we don’t encourage his improvement, if all we do is saying that he should already have done so much better… Well, I can’t say that he shouldn’t have; but I know, and pretty much all studies show, that positive reinforcement works better.
So yeah, if we ever meet a Hank in our lives, let’s try to help them with the next few steps, so that they don’t revert back to John.
I personally think religion is bullshit, and here’s why.
If god knows the future, then it must already be determined, if it’s determined, then we have no free will, so either there is no hell, or god is an asshole.
There’s also the fact that christians don’t believe in evolution, if you don’t believe in evolution, but believe in Noah’s ark, then every time a new disease is discovered, your mental image of Noah should get worse.
There’s like a bizarre amount of what’s wrong with this.
1. If you know a guy is going to throw a ball because he says he is and you know him, he still chooses to throw the ball.
2. Hell is a concept which has multiple patterns of belief. C.S. Lewis basically just threw it as a place to go if you reject God.
3. Where in the world do you get the idea Christians don’t believe in evolution?
American fundamentalism has a lot of Creationlists but they’re not even close to the majority of the 4 billion Christians on the planet.
1. But the christian god knows things before they happen, meaning that he sees the future, humans don’t see the future, do we?
2. Mkay.
3. They believe in creationism, evolution would disprove that.
Let’s not do the full on attack on Christianity here. There’s a very broad spectrum of beliefs.
Even just on Creation/Evolution, Christians range from Young Earth Creationism with all species created essentially as is ~6000 years ago to God created the universe and things evolved from there. There are plenty of Christian evolutionary biologists.
Some strands of Christianity are horribly toxic for various reasons. Others are not and have done much good.
Nor of course are all religions Christian. And all the same arguments apply there, with variations.
3. We do? News to me. If you’re interested in what is actually going on in Christianity in the U.S., rather than what the loudest ranters say is going on, I suggest looking up http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist. Fred Clark grew up like Joyce and got out without falling into traps such as believing that creationism, of all the fluffy-headed innovations, is foundational to Christianity. He blogs a lot about the problems in his upbringing.
Here’s my view on this as a Christian.
1) Life is like a maze filled with multiple turns and multiple paths to the end, and God can see every possible path and possible decision that we could take.
2) Hell exist’s I’m just not the person to discuss hell with currently, something I need to research more.
3) This is the most ignorant statement in this list. Plenty of Christian scientist believe in evolution. And pretty much all scientist believe that before the “big bang” all the matter that was the cause of the big bang had to have been created before.
I’m Christian who believes in evolution, just not the evolution that says we evolved from a single cell organism.
Out of curiosity, why don’t you? There’s a lot of evidence for it, up to and including both homologies and intermediates between single cell and multi-cell creatures, and like you say it doesn’t conflict with most Christianity at all.
Partly cause I was born and raised in the South lol.
And though I honestly do love science evolution is one of those topics I just inadvertently avoided I guess because of the constant arguments and conspiracy for/against/around it. I do believe in the evolution of adaptation, animals adapting to better survive environment, I just haven’t taken the time to really dig into research about evolution yet.
I’m even open to the idea simply because
While the Bible may give an oversimplified version of the beginning of time, it’s not exactly wrong.
Sure God didn’t “create” the earth and its inhabitants in seven days. But at the same time whose to say what a “day” is like to an omnipotent all powerful being.
And the creation cycle does follow the same path.
I just haven’t fully researched evolution yet to truly compare.
3) I don’t think that’s what most scientists would say about the big bang. At least not most scientists who study such things. Most would not use the word “created”, for example. If speaking strictly, they also wouldn’t use the word “before”, since both space and time began with the big bang, according to most theories. There was no “before”, since what we know as time didn’t exist until after.
Hey, I’m a christian and a biologist and I absolutely believe in evolution. Don’t generalize.
I believe in evolution. The kind of evolution that says animals adapt to better survive in their environments kind.
I believe in macroevolution as well as the sort of microevolution you’re talking about, because it makes sense to me that since animals adapt to their environments and other factors through natural selection, that over long periods of times this leads to speciation and stuff.
But, if you’re not a biologist, I don’t really care if you don’t believe humans evolved over billions of years from ye olde one-celled organism. Like, I believe that such selection was guided by God as well as natural forces, because God is the one moving around the natural forces, but as long as you’re not going ‘no evolution happens at all’ I don’t really think it’s ignorant.
Augh, I feel like I’m wording this semi-offensively, sorry.
We have fossils of whales with legs. What more should anyone need?
Life is awesome.
I’ve got the long explanation in another comment somewhere.
So here’s the TL:DR
I just simply haven’t taken the time to properly study evolution yet. Someday maybe. It’s on a list
And yes life is awesome.
Also scary.
Life is scary awesome.
I mean, we can actually see speciation happening in modern species (the process through which subspecies evolve separately enough they are in the process of no longer fitting the biological definition of the same species). The biological definition of the same species is typically ‘can interbreed and have viable and fertile offspring’, aka offspring can survive AND have more babies.
But the fun part with this definition is not only is it basically useless for long extinct species because we can never throw two extinct dinosaurs into a bow-chicka-wow-wow chamber and see exactly how viable and fertile their offspring would be, but it’s not a case of either-or even with modern, extant species.
For example, say species A has 5 subspecies on a chain of 5 islands, subspecies 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Now say subspecies 1 can successfully interbreed with subspecies 1-4, and subspecies 5 can interbreed with subspecies 2-5, but all offspring of subspecies 1 and 5 are sterile.
Are 1 and 5 the same species? There is debate!
Biology is confusing and I love it and I thought you’d find that interesting.
Privilege in a nutshell. Joyce is feeling entitled according to John. Entitled to an opinion. Entitled to anger. Entitled to decide what is sinful. And she doesn’t understand how the world works.
John isn’t entitled. He just drives a muscle car (compensate much?) bought with other people’s money. He talks about his mission, but is mainly about making the world more like him. He can dismiss other’s opinions without much thought, because.. reasons basically. Nope, his sister’s trauma doesn’t matter, since it didn’t (and couldn’t) happen to him.
John is a missionary, but mainly for a gospel of success and privilege.
Until Jocelyne spoke up, everything John-John said was BEYOND ironic. Real life is also harder than it needs to be when you don’t get that talking the talk alone just isn’t enough.
Oh, and if you’re a closet heartless wimp. That too.
Oh, come on, be fair to Jonathan. His heartlessness isn’t closeted AT ALL.
i dont mind if your heartless, but could you maybe not do it in public?
Screw separate bathrooms for non-heteronormative people, can we just get separate bathrooms for the heartless instead? They’re the ones who are having all the problems with this issue.
Fuck this fuck this fuuuuuck this
Furthermore, I’d like to continue to point out that John’s senile and archaic views on Christianity are what make him a false Christian. Dude preaches like he wrote the Holy Book but acts like he’s the devil himself.
And how shocking a twist that’d be, it’s still speaks volumes that this is not a Christian man. This is a bigoted, unsanctioned, unapologetic asshole.
Oh, but he -is- Christian. I mean, it’s clear that he loves Jesus more than he loves his family members, which is just the way Jesus wanted it (Matthew 10, 37).
And personally, I suspect that if any supernatural entity wrote the bible, it’d be more likely to be the devil, considering the actual contents in it.
Yeah, but that was archaic views I was talking about.
And…yeah, you have a good point there actually.
But he also isn’t Christian because he clearly doesn’t love others the same way (John 13:34)
Now im a believer but i don’t believe that the Bible was written “by God”. I do believe that it was written by man about God.
John is the absolute worst here. I had been hoping John was just having an asshole moment, but I hate this attitude John is showing.
It is my experience that many fundamentalists take the Bible out of its historical context for maximum dickery. Like an ‘eye for an eye’ there are way too many people who have merrily decided that is a prescriptive rather than prohibitive statement. There reasoning being that they don’t need all that history to understand God’s word . . .
Which usually becomes an excuse to ignore the context since it wouldn’t jive with their literalist interpretation. Or might expose them to uncomfortable new ideas.
This makes sense I guess.
I always learned that the historical context was pretty much key to understanding the Bible, and it really is. Most of the Old Testament is really just a historical document. Not gonna say it’s a perfect and accurate account of history, (pretty sure God didn’t create the world within a week) but to deny the history in the Old Testament, believer or not, is ignorant.
But then they will bend over backwards to “it was just the culture back then” the things that make them uncomfortable.
Like the defense of the rules where a woman would be forced to marry her rapist.
Yeah, unfortunately those people exist. A lot of the fucked up laws of the Old Testament were just cultural, but somehow, some people tooke it as biblical law I guess.
And don’t even get me started on Levitical law. Just. Don’t…
What I was getting at is that, in some ways, and sometimes, not always, ancient Biblical cultures could be more philosophically enlightened than a lot of American fundamentalists today.
Like, it would not be an alien idea to a Rabbi two thousand years ago that someone unable to attend to their physical needs would find it almost impossible to achieve spiritual enlightenment.
John we’re going to need to send your ass home in an ambulance. Jocelyne has inherited your car, your wife has left you, and your family gives not a single fuck. Simply because of how bad that sick burn was.
I was actually scared that Jocelynne would keep neutral but THIS. is a mighty sweet burn.
*Explodes from rage*
“skimming” the funds. disgusting! i want to spit in his face. What other “perks” did he also get? I get very angry when people do that. misusing people’s charity. *spits John in his face and hope for it is acid kind*
Such a hypocritcal bastard.. and isn’t this kind illegal too?
Ugh! I am adding to the list of “OMG! RAGE! How dare his church skim funds from the tithings” comments. Jackass. (not Willis, Josh and the church)
I think you mean John. Josh is the one coming in with the flamethrower, delivering sick burns.
Johnathan, not Josh – Josh is the unmet Brown that we pretty much know nothing about. But the rest of the family seems to have cut ties with him, so I have high hopes for the lad.
Damn it, I’m starting to get my Browns mixed up, why did they all have to start with a “J.” Falling Star is sort of right, Josh is Jocelyne’s… previous identity? alter ego? I don’t know the correct term. Basically, who everyone thinks she is. The unmet Brown is Jordan.
Definitely not “alter ego”, though I can see why you’d think that; in the sense that Jocelyne still has to pretend to be Joshua when around family.
“Dead name” is the term I’ve seen used the most (though admittedly that hasn’t been a lot). As such, it is considered polite to (when you know their real name) never use the dead name*. So best stick with Jocelyne.
*Unless they’re with people that they still need to hide from.
Yes, that’s what I was going for with “alter ego,” as in “her Josh identity isn’t fully gone yet, because she still uses it for, at least, her family.”
I’ve just been using Jocelyne or Joss; the whole “Josh” thing just came up due to Jen’s (what can I only assume was a) typo.
I merely used the name ‘Josh’ so that no confusion would happen if I just threw the name ‘Jocelyne’ in there without explanation. I meant no disrespect to Jocelyn herself.
If you are still checking out this comment tree: In the strip after this, Cerberus is suggesting “zombie name” for the name that a trans person considers dead, but still has to use in one or more settings (whether it’s when dealing with bureaucracy, bigoted family, or whatever makes them need to hide their true selves).
As emperor of the internet, I immediately approved of said suggestion, and it is now official.
Still, never use a person’s zombie name unless they’re also currently having to use it.
REKT SO HARD BRUH
{insert ‘all aboard the Rage Train’ pic here}
Self-righteous prick. In real life, someone like that would be wearing an expression that’s a cross between derision and disgust, and I’d want to punch them in the face for it. Grrrr…
Backpfeifengesicht
Also known as “the Ted Cruz effect”
Honestly is this what would Jesus do? The older brother should get a donkey instead.
Slightly redundant as he’s an ass already.
So, uh, quick question for the religious scholars: Jesus was strong enough to flip a bunch of tables, but can he flip a 200X Ford Mustang? This is vital to my AU fic.
Jesus knows a bunch of commercial fishermen who made a living hauling nets by hand back in the day. Also two of them are nicknamed the Sons of Thunder and another guy is known as The Rock. I think you’re covered.
It’s official. I hate john. He’s the exact kind of holier than thou asshole that i would punch in the face with a chair in real life.
Is John a seminary student? Some require missionary work, and the Mustang could have been a “signing bonus” to get him to preach locally for a few years. It would explain a lot about his attitude and his dismissal of the danger that Fundie put everyone in. If he adheres to the local fundamentalist dogma, then he would see Fundie’s actions as justified. In his mind, Fundie’s a hero. After all, he would have gladly died for his daughter. Becky, being a mere female (and therefore chattel) committed a grievous sin by defying him. A sin John sees his sister committing, and condoning.
Since he would be in his mid-late 30s, since he’s something like a decade older than Jocelyne (who herself is probably around 5 years older than Joyce), and certainly isn’t a recent convert, seminary seems rather unlikely.
Mmm I don’t think it would be unusual for someone 30-35 (as Willis has indicated John’s age to be on the tumblr) to be in Seminary, or at least in a position where they haven’t been fully ordained yet. It’s about right for the people I know who went to seminary. And it’s not like other career paths where you go straight to seminary out of college or high school. It’s not unusual to have persons who get the call later in life.
That is the opposite of my experience…except for late convert, seminary is a direct path from other schooling. But I was raised Catholic…it might be a different culture among fundies.
Yeah, I think YMMV. Most of the seminarians I referred to are UU, and experience on my part is limited to (non-fundamentalist) Protestantism.
As a Christian myself, this is the exact kind of attitude I hate to see in other so called Christians. Did God not call us to love everyone including our “enemies”? (Matthew 5:43-48)
It sickens and saddens me to know that Christians out there act like this out there. I guess I’ve been lucky enough to have gone to a good church that didn’t shun people for their past.
John’s attitude is the reason that Christianity is the leading cause of atheism. People who claim God with their words yet act completely opposite.
I think the same thing every time I see another christian acting this way.
I mean, I do my best to love others and treat others with respect. I’m certainly not perfect but I’d like to believe I do my best to treat others the way Jesus did, with love and compassion.
This attitude of John’s is not only destructive to non-believers by puahing them away, it’s destructive to himself and every other person who claims to be Christian.
A lot of American Christian fundamentalism is based in Calvinism, aka the idea that everyone’s actions and life are already pre-determined. This allows people to think that they’re the ‘Chosen Ones’ who live Good, Faithful lives and will always go to heaven, and meanwhile all those Dirty Sinners are destined to just keep being Dirty Sinners.
It’s a toxic, horrible mindset and not one I think Jesus would approve of, at all.
Let’s just not even get started on Calvinism. I do not agree with it at all. The Bible doesn’t agree with it, though I’m sure you know this as well.
I lean more towards Arminianism, though I would not call myself such.
I dunno what school I’d say I lean towards. The school of ‘it’s okay to be gay and also I just want to help people and support the poor and oppressed and be charitable’ I suppose.
Calvinism just gives me heebie-jeebies.
Calvinism is not just not cool and completely denies a lot of biblical truth.
Plus. The guys name was also John.
Damn you John…
Also adding that, yeah, as a lesbian Christian with a lot of queer, non-christian, and athiest friends, this storyline is hitting really closely. I’m fortunate my parents are accepting and loving.
John is willfully ignorant to the point of delusion. It wouldn’t surprise me to learn that “Cristi” is Japanese love pillow.
Blanket reminder to Christians posting on this thread that we can’t actually say that a self-identified Christian isn’t Christian unless they explicitly deny bedrock doctrine, by which I mean something about as old as the Apostles’ Creed. Doesn’t mean we can’t call out hypocrisy, greed, selfishness, cruelty, good old beams in the eye, and general jackassery though.
Also have to agree with this. I certainly a think a lot of mainstream Christianity isn’t very Christ-like, but that doesn’t mean the people involved aren’t genuine Christians, just that they’re not… very good at interpreting the bible? IDK.
To be fair, denying other Christians are Christians is one of the most cherished and time-honored past-times of the faith. It’s like, literally, something which dates back to Peter and Paul hating each other in that loving Christ-like way.
But “No, the ear can’t tell the eye that they’re not part of the body” is just as old. As is Paul hearing that somebody is calling themselves a Paulian Christian (as opposed to all those ignorant and bad non-Paulian Christians) and going “WUT NO.”
Genuine Christians? Maybe. Genuine assholes? Definitely. It’s not okay to give them a pass as just being ‘bad at interpreting the Bible.’ That doesn’t give them carte blanche to be prickmuffins.
Going off my comment a little downthread, it isn’t so much Bible interpretation as looking at certain passages and making up reasons why they don’t really apply to us. Which is a tradition that started probably, oh, AD 34 or so.
Part of Christian humility, I think, is to realize that no matter how hard we try not to do this, we still do it anyway. And part of the innovations that Fred Clark sarcastically calls Real True Christianity–the Christian-flavored American subculture he was raised in, like Joyce–is to pretend that we never, never do. RTC preachers say that their interpretation is simply the obvious meaning of the text and anybody who argues with it is not only wrong, but being wrong on purpose.
Yeah. And I think you can also tie that with Calvinism’s idea that some people are just destined to be saved no matter what but the number is limited, so because people have decided obviously they are the ones that are going to be saved, that they are doing the Right Thing, because otherwise they wouldn’t be the Chosen Ones who are Saved, and…
God, it’s such self-recursive headachey bad logic.
Exactly. It’s all interpretation, but when you start pretending that your interpretation isn’t actually interpretation, you dive down the rabbit hole.
Because it is interpretation. It’s just the interpretation you’ve been taught since you first saw the text. No one ever comes to the Bible without a ton of preconceptions already built in.
That’s why the doctrines of divinely dictated Scripture* and Biblical literalism** are so poisonous. Not to mention every nutty innovation, from Creationism to the End Times Checklist, that is “proven” by the “obvious” meaning of a bunch of verses snipped out of context and patchworked together.
*Prophecies? Sure. Jesus’ words? Of course. But priestly commentaries on (now lost) secular historical books, or that one passage in Paul’s letters where he carefully specifies which of his suggestions are just his opinion and which are divinely inspired? Humans thought those up. And humans wrote it all down. And we’re not infallible.
**”Clap your hands, you hills.” Say what? And what about the passage where God portrays Himself as a cuckolded husband ranting about his wife (Israel) going off with some jerk just because he’s hung like a donkey? Biblical literalists keep using that word. It does not mean what they think it means.
“AD 34”
I see what you did there
Man, I feel increasingly bad for Willis the more we read of Joyce’s storyline. To grow up in an environment where your family believes that being threatened with a gun by your best friend’s dad isn’t traumatic? Or that they only pretend it’s traumatic because they feel entitled? I grew up in a religious family, but never had to deal with such insanely inhuman extremism.
Which, I should have specified, specifically feel bad for him because Joyce’s family is based off of his own experiences.
I feel you here. And Willis. And Joyce.
Also grew up in a religious home but also not so extreme. Now I still hold on to my faith however I’m glad I’ve learned that I don’t have to be this perfect person who has it all figured out, because Lord know I ain’t
my family wasnt religious at all, but i had to be baptised to go to school here (ireland) so ive met my fair share of people like this
catholic school sucks
To be fair I haven’t met many Catholics, but I don’t agree with a lot of their tenents of belief. Like purgatory, or having to do a penance (I think that’s the right word for it) to receive gods forgiveness.
Catholics are…interesting…for lack of a better word. I know of good Catholics, and I know of not so good Catholics.
You could say Protestants have to do a penance, too. In order to receive god’s forgiveness, they must acknowledge that their nature is sinful and that Christ alone can redeem them. It’s not _called_ penance, but it’s a fee paid all the same.
I don’t know if I would say that. The idea is similar I guess, but I don’t think I’d call acknowledgement of sin the same as a penance. Penance requires an action be done before forgiveness can be received, whereas for Protestants forgiveness is already received, one just has to ask.
I can see why they would be considered the same, however in essence they are different.
Yeah, I think 99% of protestants would object to being compared to purgatory– they’d say they don’t believe that one can merit heaven, and purgatory seems to be a kind of merit.
Of course Catholics (and I am one), would say that Purgatory is a necessary consequence of definitions of heaven and hell.
But anyway, yeah, I’m glad even the most extreme human beings I’ve ever met are still a far cry from the Joyce family.
I am well well aware that fundies of this nature and willful blindness do exist and are a very real thing…I’m just glad I haven’t met any personally. Which is surprising given where I live. But I’m real glad I haven’t. I don’t think I could stand them. “Consequences” do not include a nutjob threatening people with a gun. That’s all on the nutjob not on Becky, Joyce or any of their actions at all. It’s not justifiable in any logical way.
How sheltered do you have to keep yourself as an adult to not see all of the glaring contradictions to the shit you were taught as a kid?
Like I get not seeing anything but Trendy sexuality when you’re a kid and you’re kept from history books and the mainstream media but seriously when you’re an adult you kind of have to make the intentional decision to avoid anything that might challenge your beliefs. IE Joyce she could have avoided classes and a school that would challenge her beliefs but she didn’t.
I will say that American Christianity is very good at “preparing” their faithful youth for the “persecution” they will receive in college and how “Satan has his hands in the liberal teaching” aka you might meet socially accepted gays and they’re Real People (but you should try and convert them or you’re a bad person).
A lot of people cling to those teachings despite being in an environment that is blatant proof that those teachings are complete horseshit.
White American Christian church is great at this thing called brainwashing fixed on the crux of threat of hell and damnation.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say the teachings are complete horseshit. I would say that a lot of “biblical teachers” of the past century have gone about teaching the Bible the wrong way. Luckily, I think hellfire and brimstone preachers are starting to become a thing of the past now.
For me personally, I still held onto my belief after starting college, except Instead of clinging tighter to more destructive ideals, I molded them around the world I was experiencing into what I believed was a more Christ-like view.
Basically the entire new testament was written by Paul, who is constantly a sexist asshole.
Yes, they are complete horseshit.
What I find surprising and disgusting about people like John and his mom is how they basically ignore anything Jesus said in for a set of values and prejudices that have nothing to do with the Bible.
I mean, 99 % of what Jesus said could be summarized as “don’t be a asshole and help people in need”, but fundies like John think that being a Christian means hating on everybody who isn’t exactly like them and trying to stop governmental policies that help the poor and unfortunate.
Another example: Old Testament allowed marriages to be repudiated and forbade homosexuality. Jesus didn’t say a thing about homosexuality at all, but he explicitly forbade divorcees to remarry (I do not agree with him, but the point is, he did it). Fundies remarry after divorce, but they bash on homosexuality, because Old Testament seem to be more important that the New Testament to them.
For all the talk and Bible quotes, religions are far more just inherited sets of beliefs and behaviors with some textual justifications tacked. Religions are great ways to codify and maintain mores and values over generations.
Fundamentalist religions are particularly troublesome, since they pretend to be relying on the raw text, not on interpretation of it, it’s very hard to challenge the interpretations they are making.
Meant to lead up to:
What the actual text says doesn’t matter nearly so much as what they were taught it says. Fighting fundies with Bible quotes is usually a waste of time.
I guess I’ve just been lucky enough to not encounter fundies.
I think part of the reason Christianity has fallen within the last century is because it has been focused on being a religion, instead of being a relationship with God.
What I mean by that is that the religion aspect focuses too much on the biblical “laws”, which yes are still important, but should not be the focus.
We have become so focused on “don’t do this or you’ll burn for eternity” when instead we be showing love, not trying to invoke fear.
As opposed to when? “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”?
The long centuries when the Catholic Church ruled the West as the successor to Rome?
I’m not even sure that Christianity really has fallen within the last century, depending on exactly what you mean by that.
Fundamentalism arose in the 19th and 20th centuries. Say what you want about Catholicism, but at least it didn’t flat out reject all modernism or progressivism.
And I disagree that Bible verses are a waste of time. Sure, they believe what they are told. But they also think that what they are told is the only way to read the Bible. So showing that there are other ways is often what ultimately gets through to those who do leave.
Remember, Joyce is autobiographical. And how was she first convinced about homosexuality? By reading stuff where people showed using scripture that it wasn’t necessarily sinful.
The same thing happened to me.
Honestly part of me completely disassociate’s Catholicism from Christianity as Catholicism as many tenents in place that have given its church and its leaders unnecessary powers, both in the past and now.
That being said I associate Christianity with the Protestant Reformation. I’m not going to say it was perfect but Martin Luther was right.
The 20th century was a breeding ground for hellfire and brimstone preachers and a terrible way of preaching the Bible and conversion. Fear instead of love. Punishment instead of grace. Pastors were so desperate to convert that they ended up ostracizing their target. And now pastors of this century have to deal with problems their predecessors caused. Some have dealt with it appropriately some have not.
I understand a lot of Protestants feel that way, but Catholics are a slight majority of the world’s Christians. And were an even larger majority for most of Christian history. It’s really hard to talk about Christianity, when you exclude most of the people who’ve called themselves Christians.
It’s perfectly fine to criticize the history or doctrine of other denominations, but to exclude them entirely is sketchy.
If you want to talk about Protestants, there’s a perfectly good term for that – Protestant. If you want to narrow it down farther and exclude some of them, there are categories within Protestant. But don’t talk about Christians and mean something else. Especially not if you want people to understand you.
I don’t mean to say I exclude them in anyway. I recognize that Catholics make up the majority of Christian history. My second argument more stems from the semantics of the etymology of the word “Chiristian”.
That said i will also say that i dont believe the catholic church has done so great the last century either.
My main point i guess was that the teachings of this 20th century was not a great time for Christian history really.
Luther was an Agustinian monk who was educated by Catholic teachers, read a Catholic Bible compiled by the Catholic Pope Damasus I in 382 CE (there were some books who were left out) and translated from Greek to Latin by Saint Jerome on Pope Damasus’s orders.
Luther studied Theology in the Catholic University of Wittenberg, and his studies were based on the work of the theologians of the Catholic University of Paris, which in turn was based on the work of the Fathers of the Church and on Greek Phylosophy.
Everything he knew and learnt, had been handed down to him by the Catholic Church. He didn’t have any information about the older Church or Jerusalem, headed by James and Judah, brothers of Jesus. He wasn’t an archeologist or anthropologist. All he did, he built upon what the Catholic Church had allowed to be transmitted to him.
If the Catholic Church isn’t Christian, then Protestants aren’t Christian either.
About the excesive power of the leaders of the Catholic Church… The Pope wasn’t considered infallible until 1870, in a desperate attempt from the Vatican to curve down the spread of Liberalism. And politically speaking, Emperor Charles was waging war against the Pope at the same time he fought the Protestants in Germany. The problem wasn’t Luther’s refusal to obey the Pope, many Catholics have opposed Popes both doctrinally and politically along History; the problem was his refusal to accept the judgement of the Universal Councils (since he believed that everybody should study the Bible by themselves without following the directon of others), meaning that even if everybody else came to an agreement, he would still preach his interpretation of the Bible.
Many of the stuff Protestants believe the Reformation was about are wrong. Right before Luther the dominant form of Catholicism in the most important European Courts was the Christian Humanism of Erasmus of Rotterdam, which refused indulgencies, the excesses of the cult of Saints, superstitions and the corruption of the ecclesial hierarchy. The kings of France and England, the Emperor Charles of Germany and Spain, and even the freaking Spanish High Inquisitor Alonso Manrique were enthusiastic Erasmists, and wanted to implement reforms.
The problem was, not even Erasmus could accept Luther’s position that only Faith did matter for Salvation. The Catholics believed that your actions during your lifetime had a weight with regards to what happened afterwards. That breach was irreconcilable. And as I said, an agreement was impossible since Luther didn’t believe that the Councils had the power to tell anybody what to believe.
And true religious freedom wasn’t impossible because of how interwined were religion and politics. Luther believed in the separation of secular power and the Church, which is nice, that that means that he thought that the economical and administrative structure of the Church had to be dissassembled and taken by the secular power, which was a juicy prize for the German princes, and put him at odds with the regular Orders and the Bishops (except a few ones who managed to seize power as secular princes).
So every prince backed their favoured one (Catholic, Lutheran and later Anabaptists) and forbade any other to be practiced in their domains, meant war.
Look I’m not trying to say Catholics aren’t Christian. I’ve just unintentionally disassociated partly with Catholicism for some reason. I don’t discount them from Christian history…but I have not worded previous statements well. Learning a bit about Martin Luther though.
I guess I need to re word a lot of previous statements lol.
A lot of thoughts have not come out the way I meant them too XD
Oooohhh…. was this a specific “Gospel for Asia” burn? Because if it is, I love you even more Willis. In a totally platonic non-trendy way, notthathtere’sanythingwrongwiththat.
How long ago was this comic written? The first I heard about the GfA thing was in February. (Though, of course, Willis may have had his suspicions before that.)
Two days from now, Jocelyne is in some sort of building, seemingly talking to someone with an awkward smile. I doubt it’s a car, the area of light from the windows is too large.
Either Jocelyne leaves John and goes back to Joyce and Becky to apologize for his behaviour, or we’ll be jumping to a new scene at Jocelyne’s house. The former sounds more likely to me.
And it just occurred to me that John taking Jocelyne “home” probably refers to their parents’ house.
That’s possible; there may be a big all-family (except Jordan) Brown Family Soiree planned for tonight, in-universe.
I doubt it. Previous reports say that Joss lives about two hours drive away. I would expect that John picked her up on the way to town from wherever he lives, which is presumably further away.
I expect Jocelyne to tell John that she has decided to spend the night at her parents’ home and have Hank drop her off tomorrow.
Background of the preview panel is the same gold and brown color scheme as inside the restaurant, so my money is on Joss heading back to Joyce and Becky.
Getting awfully close to “stuff I can’t ever take back” there, Joss. Careful.
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2013/comic/book-3/04-just-hangin-out-with-my-family/heated/
Oh man, I just looked at the alt text for that one. Not enough sad faces…
See, I’m reading it as the opposite. She’s waited until the situation is mostly defused, and completely refraining from fighting back with anything remotely incriminating. John can get mad at her, certainly, but it’ll be a normal sibling fight over a disagreement, not an “I’m going to pass intel along to Mom that will leave you without a family.”
“I’m having it ferried across the Bering Strait, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.”
Driving from Vladivostok to New Delhi overland! MISSIONARY ROAD TRIP!
…that sounds pretty fun, actually.
Both ‘missionary road trip’ and/or ‘Vladivostok to New Delhi overland’ sound like they should be double entendres.
And now I’m not sure which sounds like more fun. The actual roadtrip or whatever act the entendres entail.
oh wow this guy is a hundred times the asshole I thought he was…
Every strip we see him in he gets worst. Its actually kind of impressive.
I like to think I’m not a particularly violent or spiteful human being.
But man, I really, deeply, sincerely hope someone lays the See You Next Tuesday that is John Brown right the fuck out, like some fine teak decking. If anyone has it coming, it’s him.
DRAG HIM, JOCELYNE
Ugh, the more I see of John, the more I dislike him, and he gets worse every page. He has gone from being a dick to all out asshole.
Its actually mildly impressive how much worst he gets every page. Every day I think “Well John can’t get much worst” but NOPE.
Progression is, thus far:
Mild jerk- wants ‘family only’, but there may be other reasons from that.
Somewhat jerky- MIGHT be overly annoyed at Nazi jokes.
Pretty dang jerky- OK, you might be able to pin this on Carol somehow.
Chauvinistic Assclown- Yep, no excuse for this reaction to Joyce expressing anger.
Chauvinistic, Entitled, Complains-Like-A-Middle-Aged-Right-Winger-Full-Bore Asshole- Today.
Oh snap, John’s gonna need some burn cream.
I read this as “bum” cream at first.
Another win for poor kerning
Ok so I hate Ross and Ryan more than John but I dislike John more..? Not sure how that works but there you go
Oh snap.
Also, my first reaction was “Man, would that actually ever happen?” and then .001 seconds later I was like, “Of course it would.” Ugh. xP
The scary thing is that getting a mustang from your church is comparatively innocuous. Really rich televangelists routinely buy private jets, ostensibly for “missionary work,” not to mention the mansions that count as “parsonages.”
It just dawns on me that this is probably one of those things that Joss has wanted to say for a while, but kept her mouth shut to avoid “causing problems.”
And I do wonder if John’s response will be that, if she doesn’t appreciate it, then she can just stay there. It’d suck if Joss didn’t choose to stay behind, but it would be perfectly in character for John.
I hope I’m just projecting here, based on my own experiences, but Johns body language suggests that he might be a bully-type
He definitely wouldn’t try anything with anyone even close to his own size but his little brother (in his eyes) I wouldn’t put it past him to shove him round a bit
Right now, this moment is when Joss needs to ‘come out’ to John, then tell him to stuff his condesention up his ass, go back inside and ‘high-five’ Joyce for standing up to him.
Well, looks like you guys were right, and I was wrong. I wanted to believe that John could have just been rude and insensitive, but everything you guys said about his inner thoughts was surprisingly 100% correct. I’m not sure how you guys picked up on all that subtext so accurately. Anyway, now John’s past my benefit of the doubt.
Mostly from dealing with people exactly like him.
experience, mostly. i envy you tho. i want to believe the best of everyone and give people the benefit of the doubt, but i’m cynical by necessity
I’ve been lucky enough not to have to deal with guys like him, so I only picked it up by being an intensely cynical bastard. Listening to the people that has had to deal with people like him also helped.
And there’s nothing wrong with wanting to believe that he could’ve been better than he turned out. I’m sure most of us were hoping for that.
I think the main reason you didn’t pick it up is because all those little clues is… How shall I put it? Let’s liken it to the infamous water drop torture. You know, the one where all they do is continuously dripping a drop of water on someone’s forehead. One drop is nothing. Nor is two drops. But keep it up for an hour, and suddenly it turns devastatingly cruel. But you have to have experienced it to really know how cruel it is (please don’t experience it). And if you have experienced it, you will also cringe when you see it happen to someone else -at the very first drop-. You don’t have to wait long to understand what the end result is going to be.
Until the last couple of days, what John’s been doing is basically the verbal version of this, commonly known as micro-aggression. One comment is, in itself, hardly anything. But anyone who’s ever been on the receiving end knows that it doesn’t end in that one comment. Another will come, and another, and another, and another… And all of a sudden it’s becoming completely unbearable.
That’s really how I can best describe what’s going on up until the last couple of days, where John stopped with the drops and basically changed tactics to waterboarding instead.
At this point I’m not even surprised. It’s like John’s actively trying to see how many times he can make people feel silly for defending him!
I mean, I guess it’s more like Willis is. He really wants to send messages he believes in with this comic. Part of that could come down as far as setting his comic up to generate these kinds of responses in the chat and display a dialogue.
Ugh. I hate guys like John. My stupid cousin is just like this and
I disowned him. People like that suck and make the world a suckier place. Stupid fundies!
He reminds me of my oldest brother. He left home when I was young, so I never had a chance to get to know him because he never came to visit, nor did he make any effort to stay in contact with me and my little brother. He has a close relationship with my other two older brothers though, so when I’m at one of their functions I’ll run into the oldest and he has this weird notion that he can still be condescending and “big brother”-y towards me while maintaining a dismissive attitude and refusing to see me as a person. While I understand the older brother complex, he never earned his. I remember after he left I tried to get into contact with him on an MMO we both loved playing but he blocked me and otherwise refused to interact with me… he’s been married twice. My older brothers went but my mom and I never even knew until a few months after the fact.
I think the only difference between mine and this guy is that this guy reaches out to talk to Joyce, mine only acknowledges me when we’re forced to be in the same room together.
I was ten when he left, so I dont feel like I did anything that would have driven him away from me. Man.That shit hurts.
I’m gonna pretend I’m Dear Abby for a moment here. Mlle Blackfox, some people live their lives as though they only have so many seats at the table for people labeled “Family,” and somewhere along the line the decide that they don’t need anyone else. These people hurt others because they simply don’t care. It is certainly not your fault. Your brother missed out on a special relationship.
Instead, find the people in your life who have a table that’s full and still welcome you in. They will grab you a plate, pull the lawn chair in the porch and hand you a beer while telling you to fill your plate. They’ll introduce you to their weird ass family, and you’ll fit right in because they were welcomed the way you were once and want to pass that on. This is the family that will be there for you through thick and thin. Sometimes they’re blood, sometimes they’re not, but they love you for who you are just the same.
And then there are people who never grow up.
I do so hope that Hank will use his patriarchal authority for a good cause: to put John in his place, explain in detail why and how he’s utterly fucking superwrong, and make him apologize to Becky and Joyce.
And then let Joyce punch him.I don’t have the time or energy to read the comments, but I postdict (like predict, except about stuff that’s already happened) a fair amount of people upset that Willis is misrepresenting christians, a handful of people proclaiming that all of this is either Joyce’s or Becky’s fault, a lone nutter proclaiming that it’s Carla’s fault, and one or two clueless asshats still trying to defend John.
Actually, it’s remarkably sane today.
Very little on any of those fronts.
One or two sort of still defending him. Quite a few saying we couldn’t know until now and if wasn’t fair jumping to conclusions. But mostly agreement that John’s an ass and they’d just been holding out hope because they wanted him to be different.
Considering the stuff I saw deleted before, though, it’s possible that it was still there at some point. Or that those people weren’t allowed to post anymore.
Translation: “Life should be hard for people who live the way I don’t want them to!”
Someone please slap him with a fish.
Was going through old(er) strips and this: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/04-walking-with-dina/relentless/
made me tear up. Maybe this is my 2nd favest strip (after Joyce saying “I love you, becky” at the fountain).
Cool, seeing a comic without so many comments that it cause my Firefox to freeze up for a bit. This comments system doesn’t seem to scale well to 700+ comments, let alone 1000+
It doesn’t freeze up for me, though it takes a moment to load them all. But there’s no way I know of to find new comments or even replies to mine.
That’s annoying.
ctrl-f for your name for the latter. (I’ve been doing that to find replies to me on this page, since looking for my avatar is giving me false positives.)
The former… well, it can be accomplished with ctrl-f, but it would be massively tedious. >_>
Massively tedious it is.
Addicted I am.
Right? I guess you could go hour-by-hour searching “3:” for comments posted in the 3pm hour, then “4:”….
Well, my Firefox is a bit messed up for some reason, anyways. I think that, when a page has delays, it exacerbates them. And it’s too much for me right now to try and track down the problem.
Still, that delay is there, even in Chrome. The main thing I wish is that, when you replied, it would just put your comment in using JavaScript.
Basically, it needs to borrow however Reddit does it.
Turn off Shockwave. It should fix the problem.
Better late than never.
shots fucking fired!
Yeah, tell that asshole! Jocelyne rocks!
I kind of expected this but then not really. Kudos Jocelyne.
Dang a new car. That’s like corruption 101. How can he not see such impressive hypocrisy?
He probably feels he’s entitled to it. As Robert Tilton said: “I didn’t take no oath of poverty.” or, for that matter, good grammar.
Is the part of John Brown played by Darren Doane (director/co-star of Kirk Cameron’s Saving Christmas), who used the oh-so-tasteful “LGBTQYSTD”?
They certainly have matching douchebeards.
Presumably at some later date we’ll discover he’s not such a bad guy overall, but so far…I really kinda hate John. What a tool.
scott wilson santa fe, new mexico said this in the comments section of a NYT article:
“Certain so-called christians are truly not happy unless they can be both the bully and the victim–at the same time.”
That last panel is so fucking baller.
And then of course this has been making the rounds during this whole arc. Oddly enough this guy looks like an older version of John. COINCIDENCE I THINK NOT
https://youtu.be/GBDbGyv6SIQ
“Real life is hard”?
Did he honestly chalk up assault with a deadly weapon as just something that happens?
To women who get out of line, sure.
Were we supposed to know that John had access to tithing funds somehow already? Like is he or someone in his family in a position to be managing their church’s finances? This felt really left-field to me.
We knew he was doing missionary work in India. It was cited a couple of times in the recent strips.
But it is now any new information, however small, that wasn’t heavily hinted before to be considered “left-field”?
Wait, when John was getting mad at Becky about the social security number thing, maybe he was actually just offended that she wasn’t very good at stealing money from people. “NO THAT ISN’T HOW YOU FRAUD YOU’RE BRINGING SHAME TO THE ENTIRE PROFESSION”.
Okay I was with John up to this point, but he’s just a douchebag now. Seriously, no mention of the traumatic events Joyce has gone through at all? And driving away in a new Mustang while commenting on how hard life is? Come on. Hopefully he’ll wise up later on, but with how this comic portrays conservative Christians I severely doubt it.
Also, what is with this comic and portraying any Christian who’s even slightly conservative as an unrepentant asshole? It can’t just be me noticing this. WE’RE NOT ALL LIKE THIS.
Damn. A missed opportunity to get the OTHER wrist some exercise!