Dumbing of Age Book Eleven

Dumbing of Age

A college webcomic by David Willis
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September 28, 2023

Escalation

by David M Willis on November 22, 2018 at 12:01 am
  • 01 - Flyin' to the Red

└ Tags: amber, ethan, leland, marcie, sal

Discussion (455) ¬

[ Comments RSS ]
  1. Ana Chronistic
    Ana Chronistic
    November 22, 2018 at 12:01 am | #

    oh dang introspection

    the buller has now become the bully

    • Piotr W
      Piotr W
      November 22, 2018 at 12:05 am | #

      I think it’s more she realized that every time she rages, there are consequences…

      • Athedia
        Athedia
        November 22, 2018 at 12:11 am | #

        Nah, it is Sal seeing the circles of violence in her life. She sees that Leland attacked Marcie due to Sal defending Marcie before. Sal then panicked and hurt Ethan, Amber then attacked Sal due to her own warped sense of justice. Amber wants *herself* to be ended because she hasn’t seen that by taking responsibility she can end this.

        But Sal has figured out it is her job and responsibility to end the cycle and step away.

        At least I hope.

        I really want Sal to be okay.

        • BBCC
          BBCC
          November 22, 2018 at 12:16 am | #

          Not quite – Amber stabbed Sal because her dad berated her until she snapped for the most part. I do think that, while she’s regretted both the Leland fight and the robbery before now, this is the first time she’s seeing the connection.

          • CJ
            CJ
            November 22, 2018 at 3:38 am | #

            I think she just got why Amber would have felt hurt by her even though the knife was at Ethan’s throat. So suddenly, the girl who came out of nowhere and mutilated her hand has a reason she can relate to.

            • ischemgeek
              ischemgeek
              November 22, 2018 at 7:56 am | #

              Yeah this.

              I think the takeaway is less one dimensional than violence begets violence and more that learning to see things from others’ perspectives lends context to actions that felt unreasonable.

              Sal remembers how helpless and angry she felt when Leland hurt Marcie. It just clicked for her that THAT’S why Amber hurt her. Because she also felt hurt and angry and helpless.

              • Kris
                Kris
                November 22, 2018 at 12:19 pm | #

                Does that mean Leland only hurt Marcie because he needed money to help his crippled friend? Y’know, REALLY bring this whole story full circle.

                • ǝ snow ʍousɐ
                  ǝ snow ʍousɐ
                  November 22, 2018 at 1:14 pm | #

                  Knowing DoA, it’s probably because he had an abusive father.

                • BBCC
                  BBCC
                  November 22, 2018 at 2:17 pm | #

                  I mean, a few people did point out that his ready excuse of ‘she tripped in that ditch’ sounds a lot like what a kid might say about their ‘clumsy’ mother.

              • ǝ snow ʍousɐ
                ǝ snow ʍousɐ
                November 22, 2018 at 1:16 pm | #

                I think that’s the main thing, but she might be thinking about the vicious cycle of violence as well.

              • BBCC
                BBCC
                November 22, 2018 at 5:58 pm | #

                Kind of. Amber was definitely feeling hurt, afraid and helpless, but I’d argue that had a lot of thanks to Blaine berating her until she snapped. That said, Sal couldn’t possibly know that, so you’re not wrong that’s probably what she’s thinking.

                I’d also argue the stabbing itself is still unreasonable (as is the robbery) but in context it’s definitely a LOT more sympathetic. At least to me.

            • BBCC
              BBCC
              November 22, 2018 at 10:16 am | #

              Yeah, that too. She’s finally seeing the cyclical nature of the thing and how that’s affected Amber’s motivations.

              That said, cyclical nature or no, I really can’t bring myself to feel like she shouldn’t have choked that little bastard. Just maybe make sure he doesn’t know its you next time, Sal.

        • thereaverofdarkness
          thereaverofdarkness
          November 22, 2018 at 2:11 am | #

          I think Sal has always known that she is constantly receiving the blame for the mistakes of others, but is also seeing how her own actions triggered these events, even if the others weren’t justified in taking these actions. I think up until now she has refused to give up on her sense of justice, but now, finally, she is considering just mitigating the damage instead by avoiding the triggers that bring other people to do bad things.

          She is tired of the pain and suffering, and she needs a break from it all.

          And to be frank, I’ve seen a lot of folks in here rooting for Amber. As much as I like her, I can’t root for her. Amber is unambiguously in the wrong here. Sal didn’t hurt Amber. Blaine hurt Amber, and Amber projected her frustration with Blaine into actions that hurt others, like Sal. Here she is blaming Sal for her own misdoings and the shame she felt for giving in to them. I understand her mind is warped from the years of emotional abuse she has endured, but the only way she’s going to break free from this is to realize that Blaine is the enemy. Amber needs to realize that Amber isn’t the enemy, and then she needs to realize that while she isn’t an enemy, she has been one of the worst friends.

          • Clif
            Clif
            November 22, 2018 at 7:10 am | #

            I “root” for Amber because she has taken an absolutely crazy idea and with a lot of hard work and sacrifice made it work. She’s taken huge negatives in her own personality and constructed an identity where many of those negatives can be channeled for a positive good. Those who can’t respect and admire that are more lawful than good. I sympathize with Sal, but that’s just not as strong.

            • Emily
              Emily
              November 22, 2018 at 8:20 am | #

              What’s it like not believing in like trials or due process or law enforcement having any kind of accountability? Apparently a masked vigilante stalking and harassing a young black woman because of her own vendetta is justice.

              • Blazing Ace
                Blazing Ace
                November 22, 2018 at 12:28 pm | #

                You absolutely have a point, but let’s not pretend that our justice system works

                • BBCC
                  BBCC
                  November 22, 2018 at 2:16 pm | #

                  I think Emily would be the last person to say the current justice system is perfect and works. But the general principles of accountability, trials and due process are good ones.

                • TemperaryObsessor
                  TemperaryObsessor
                  November 22, 2018 at 3:09 pm | #

                  Our system is not perfect, but its generally better than allowing lynchings and such.

                • thejeff
                  thejeff
                  November 22, 2018 at 6:02 pm | #

                  All agreed, but let’s also not take it so far that rooting for Amber means “not believing in like trials or due process or law enforcement having any kind of accountability.”

                • Emily
                  Emily
                  November 22, 2018 at 6:26 pm | #

                  @Blazing Ace: Yeah and the reason it doesn’t work is because it fails to properly enforce those ideals.

          • thejeff
            thejeff
            November 22, 2018 at 8:10 am | #

            I’ve seen a lot more rooting for Sal. Personally, I’m on Team “please stop”.
            Which apparently both Sal and Amber are joining. 🙂

            I’ve been defending Amber, so that might seem like rooting for her. She’s been taking a lot of criticism that seems over the top to me. Well beyond what you said here.
            And very little on Sal that went nearly so far. There was that one poster calling her a thug, but by the time I saw that, they’d been sufficiently yelled at.

          • Steve C
            Steve C
            November 22, 2018 at 10:41 am | #

            I think they both have problems, but I sympathize a bit more with Amber simply because I think Sal can do better. Yes, Sal has had more than her share of pain in the past, and she has a lot of anger because she thinks (maybe justifiably, maybe not) that life has treated her unfairly, but Amber is mentally unstable from years of trying to deal with emotional abuse while Sal simply thinks she should have gotten some slack for attempted robbery because her heart was in the right place and her mother closed off her other option for paying Marcie’s family back. I’m not sure what this says about me personally, but I’d also rather see someone like Amber try to do the right thing for the wrong reasons that someone like Sal do the wrong thing for the right reasons.

            • BBCC
              BBCC
              November 22, 2018 at 10:45 am | #

              Sal’s also trying to deal with emotional abuse. And Sal’s never said she should have gotten some slack for the robbery. What she did say is while she faced both legal and parental sanctions, Amber faced neither (although her father made sure to take it out on Amber’s mom because Amber lashing out hurt his ego because Blaine’s an abusive tool).

              • Steve C
                Steve C
                November 22, 2018 at 11:06 am | #

                Maybe Sal didn’t say she shouldn’t have been punished for the attempted robbery, but she does seem to think that her parents sending her to a boarding school was over the top. I don’t know. Sal might have been better off in the long run going to juvie (assuming that the facility she went to had trained staff who gave a damn.)

                • Steve C
                  Steve C
                  November 22, 2018 at 11:10 am | #

                  Still, upon rereading BBCC’s reply, I guess I have to concede that Sal is justified in thinking that she faced consequences for her actions while Amber did not. (That doesn’t mean Amber wasn’t punished. Amber’s punishment has been self inflicted.)

                • BBCC
                  BBCC
                  November 22, 2018 at 11:19 am | #

                  Considering juvie and children of colour, I think the odds on that are sadly low. Looks like her school wasn’t great either, and of course, her parents are shit. School was probably the best option, but that’s not saying much, unfortunately. 🙁

        • erejnion
          erejnion
          November 22, 2018 at 12:28 pm | #

          Yeeeep. We’re nearing the Sal x Amber making out. Make love not war.

    • NelC
      NelC
      November 22, 2018 at 12:05 am | #

      “Bullee”, I think.

      I seek refuge in pedantry to avoid the feels.

      • Queen Anthai
        Queen Anthai
        November 22, 2018 at 1:45 am | #

        “Bullied” is what you’re all going for.

        Yes, it’s a noun.

    • LeslieBean4Shizzle
      LeslieBean4Shizzle
      November 22, 2018 at 12:09 am | #

      Violence begets violence.

      Her attack on what’s-his-name led to vengeance against Marcie, which led to her attack on Ethan, which led to Amber’s attack(s) on her, which led to her attack on Amber, which led to now.

      A vicious cycle in most literal sense.

      • Michael Steamweed
        Michael Steamweed
        November 22, 2018 at 12:21 am | #

        SO. IT HAS COME TO THIS.

        *they all then gang up to hunt leland. his body is never found. the dumbing of age characters all pass on into legend.

        • Ana Chronistic
          Ana Chronistic
          November 22, 2018 at 1:19 am | #

          nah his body was found

          nobody recognized it tho, them pigs’ll eat anythin’

      • Felgraf
        Felgraf
        November 22, 2018 at 2:21 am | #

        Given that that kid was fucking with Marcie dangerously before, I’m not convinced he might not have eventually done this ANYWAYS.

      • Emily
        Emily
        November 22, 2018 at 5:08 am | #

        Christ if that’s where this is headed my eyes are going to roll out of my fucking head because “violence begets violence” is the most clueless cishet white person thing ever.

        • Clif
          Clif
          November 22, 2018 at 7:16 am | #

          Sure, any problem can be solved with enough violence. But what I actually want to ask is, what’s a cishet?

          • Blaze3713
            Blaze3713
            November 22, 2018 at 7:24 am | #

            Confortable In Skin HETerosexual. Being used as a derogatory term, here.

            • thejeff
              thejeff
              November 22, 2018 at 8:16 am | #

              “Comfortable In Skin” must be a backronym, though I’ve never seen it before.
              Cis is just short for cisgender, which came by extension from transgender. Latin-derived chemistry terminology for “this side of” and “the other side of”.

              No more derogatory than white, even here.

            • BBCC
              BBCC
              November 22, 2018 at 10:18 am | #

              That is absolutely not what it means and Emily’s usage was not derogatory just because it points out cishet white people are the ones with the privilege to often be spouting ‘violence begets violence/forgive forget’ kind of crap.

              And Emily, I wouldn’t be worried. I don’t think this is going to go for a blanket ‘violence is bad’ message. I think this is more Sal realizing the specific cycle here and how that fed both her and Amber’s motivations rather than suggesting equivalent wrongdoing with Leland.

              Plus, if nothing else, there’ve been absolutely no ethical objections to Sarah turning Ryan’s face to mush with a bat.

          • Emily
            Emily
            November 22, 2018 at 7:33 am | #

            Cisgender heterosexual.

            • C.T Phipps
              C.T Phipps
              November 22, 2018 at 7:52 am | #

              At the risk of pointing this out, given whole sections of the world have been devastated by tribal and nationalist feuds which didn’t have a “good guy” in them, I think that’s colossally ignorant characterization.

              I say that while FULLY agreeing that Nazis should be punched and plenty of people act offended when victims fight back. But, seriously, the idea that violence solves problems unilaterally is THE white cis person’s go-to excuse.

              • thejeff
                thejeff
                November 22, 2018 at 8:21 am | #

                Might be wrong, but I suspect Emily wasn’t thinking violence always solves problems, but objecting to the idea that it’s where violence usually comes from. Plenty of people suffer from violence, without starting any themselves.

                It might be a “clueless cishet white person thing” to think that’s the only way violence comes about, but as you say, it certainly is a thing that happens once the violence starts.

                • Emily
                  Emily
                  November 22, 2018 at 8:31 am | #

                  Well that and the idea that violence is universally wrong and never effective which is just ridiculously naive and displays a complete lack of historical awareness. The Holocaust wasn’t ended by a picket line.

              • Emily
                Emily
                November 22, 2018 at 8:26 am | #

                Sure until it’s coming back on them then it’s suddenly “violence begets violence” and “peaceful protest” and “cycle of revenge.” It generally comes from a position of well-intended privileged ignorance of the role violence pretty much always plays in throwing off oppression or intense hypocrisy in the face of the violence they’ve been subjecting minorities to coming back to bite them in the ass.

                • thejeff
                  thejeff
                  November 22, 2018 at 12:33 pm | #

                  Ta-Nehisi Coates in the wake of the Freddie Gray riots in Baltimore.

                  When nonviolence is preached as an attempt to evade the repercussions of political brutality, it betrays itself. When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse. When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con. And none of this can mean that rioting or violence is “correct” or “wise,” any more than a forest fire can be “correct” or “wise.”

            • Clif
              Clif
              November 22, 2018 at 5:27 pm | #

              Thank you.

    • Sunny
      Sunny
      November 22, 2018 at 1:31 am | #

      Buller? Ferris Bueller?

  2. Doctor_Who
    Doctor_Who
    November 22, 2018 at 12:01 am | #

    Sal realizes that the real choke hold is the friends we’ve made along the way.

    • Claire
      Claire
      November 22, 2018 at 12:04 am | #

      Once again I wish we had up votes

      • Beef
        Beef
        November 22, 2018 at 12:48 am | #

        I keep going to use one of the reasons from Facebook and find myself holding down on the reply button

        • Beef
          Beef
          November 22, 2018 at 12:49 am | #

          Reactions* I want my edit button Willis

          • Cavalish
            Cavalish
            November 22, 2018 at 1:37 am | #

            Followed by a reactions button.

    • Bobcat
      Bobcat
      November 22, 2018 at 12:17 am | #

      Bravo.

  3. Inahc
    Inahc
    November 22, 2018 at 12:01 am | #

    Try to kill it all away
    But I remember everything

  4. AnvilPro
    AnvilPro
    November 22, 2018 at 12:02 am | #

    Sal: “I’m beginning to think we both have some sort of problem”

    • abysswatcher1993
      abysswatcher1993
      November 22, 2018 at 3:49 am | #

      You mean personality disassociation and hallucinations?

      • Drunk Mike
        Drunk Mike
        November 22, 2018 at 10:11 am | #

        Only Amber has that. The problem they both have is anger.

  5. Piotr W
    Piotr W
    November 22, 2018 at 12:02 am | #

    Oooh, someone’s having an epiphany! Finally 🙂

  6. shadowcell
    shadowcell
    November 22, 2018 at 12:02 am | #

    Dumbing of Age Book 9: …end…it…

  7. Stephen Bierce
    Stephen Bierce
    November 22, 2018 at 12:03 am | #

    This Is The End…beautiful friend…

  8. SailorCakes
    SailorCakes
    November 22, 2018 at 12:04 am | #

    There’s the Marcie flashback we all been waiting for

  9. Kris
    Kris
    November 22, 2018 at 12:04 am | #

    By “end it” she means her hunger by biting into a satisfying Snickers bar! Too bad they’ve gone too far with this fight and weren’t humble enough to realize they were not themselves when hungry! Could have prevented all of this.

    • thejeff
      thejeff
      November 22, 2018 at 8:23 am | #

      Stacy was right!

    • Pterodactyl Ghost
      Pterodactyl Ghost
      November 23, 2018 at 4:21 am | #

      If Amber and Sal are gonna be in one of those “You’re not yourself” Snickers commercials, then, I vote for them to be subbed out for Betty White and Danny Trejo, respectively!

  10. Tarkara
    Tarkara
    November 22, 2018 at 12:04 am | #

    Sal discovered: Consequences

    • Lemonycain
      Lemonycain
      November 22, 2018 at 12:12 am | #

      It’s super effective.

  11. Bagge
    Bagge
    November 22, 2018 at 12:04 am | #

    Now, now. Let’s focus on what’s most important. No light was shone. A good family’s name was not tarnished. A bunch of adults did not have to ass them selves to do something even resembling responsibility, and a young bully was free to develop his particular style of cruelty.

    FUDGING PIECE OF SHIT!!!!

    • Kris
      Kris
      November 22, 2018 at 12:07 am | #

      Whoa whoa whoa there Bagge! I know you’re not throwing hate at Leland for apparently stabbing Marcie in the throat with a sharp rock!? He has a future!

      • Kris
        Kris
        November 22, 2018 at 12:10 am | #

        A very bright future I might add. Marcie is clearly the source of all of this!

        • Bagge
          Bagge
          November 22, 2018 at 12:17 am | #

          I should know better than to shine a light

          • Needfuldoer
            Needfuldoer
            November 22, 2018 at 2:14 am | #

            Through the eyes of the ones left behind?

  12. ShinyNeen
    ShinyNeen
    November 22, 2018 at 12:05 am | #

    Well that’s a goddamn rock, cripes

    • Bicycle Bill
      Bicycle Bill
      November 22, 2018 at 7:34 am | #

      I remember a line something like that from the Kevin Costner movie, “American Flyers” — “…and that’s a big-assed rock,” IIRC.

    • mrnoidea
      mrnoidea
      November 22, 2018 at 8:58 am | #

      I didn’t even notice the rock the first time I read this strip.

  13. Yumi
    Yumi
    November 22, 2018 at 12:05 am | #

    Yeah, go track down Leland and kick his ass.
    That’s the takeaway here, right?

    • Synnerman
      Synnerman
      November 22, 2018 at 12:07 am | #

      I’m with Yumi. I thought Marci was injured by some sort of skating accident. That’s a damned rock!

    • Bagge
      Bagge
      November 22, 2018 at 12:09 am | #

      I think the Sal’s takeaway was more in the line of “No more trouble. No more fights.”

      http://www.dumbingofage.com/2018/comic/book-9-comic/01-flyin-to-the-red/fights/

    • Yumi
      Yumi
      November 22, 2018 at 12:12 am | #

      Sometimes, you kick the wrong ass. You can’t unkick that ass, but you CAN go find and kick the right ass, presuming he hasn’t died in the time you’ve been kicking the wrong ass.

      No?

      • hallucigenia
        hallucigenia
        November 23, 2018 at 3:44 pm | #

        “Sometimes, you kick the wrong ass.” That’s definitely Important Quotes material.

    • Kris
      Kris
      November 22, 2018 at 12:14 am | #

      You sure you want that? The pattern of escalation in Sal’s life would dictate Leland then run Marcie over with a truck paralyzing her from the waist down as splashback.

      • Delicious Taffy
        Delicious Taffy
        November 22, 2018 at 12:27 am | #

        Can’t run her over if he’s a fucking smear on the sidewalk. Hoo boy, I got that keypad courage over this fictional sack of crap.

        • Yumi
          Yumi
          November 22, 2018 at 12:33 am | #

          Maybe the comic will end with him getting trampled by a cow. (Was going to say “eaten by a shark,” but I didn’t want to add to the anti-shark narrative.)

          • Bagge
            Bagge
            November 22, 2018 at 1:00 am | #

            Now, now. That cow is a good cow. Very good cow. Promising future. Let’s not shine a light.

          • Catman
            Catman
            November 22, 2018 at 3:59 am | #

            How about stabbed through the butt by a Ninja hiding in his toilet? It’s embarrassing, and we can finally see DOA ninja Rick!

          • EvilMidnightLurker
            EvilMidnightLurker
            November 22, 2018 at 5:38 am | #

            Eaten by the cow. I know this cow can devour a whole human in like five seconds flat.

  14. DailyBrad
    DailyBrad
    November 22, 2018 at 12:05 am | #

    I hope this is her moment of clarity. I mean, I hope it’s one for BOTH of them, but Amber’s got a whole lot of things to sort out, whereas Sal’s probably closer to a breakthrough at the moment.

    I want very much for her to step away from the cycle of violence, and firmly believe she has it in her to do so.

    • thejeff
      thejeff
      November 22, 2018 at 8:41 am | #

      I think Amber got hers yesterday, though there’s more work to do. Not just (what she thought was) beating Sal, but mostly for stopping.

  15. Marlowe
    Marlowe
    November 22, 2018 at 12:06 am | #

    oh, man.

    Leland can go skinnydip in a woodchipper. Hopefully Sal pushes him in.

    • Jamie
      Jamie
      November 22, 2018 at 1:33 am | #

      Yeah, that’s what Sal’s psyche needs. A murder on her conscience.

      • Marlowe
        Marlowe
        November 22, 2018 at 12:56 pm | #

        She didn’t kill him. The woodchipper did.

        It’s not her fault he tripped.

        • zathael
          zathael
          November 22, 2018 at 10:08 pm | #

          • zathael
            zathael
            November 22, 2018 at 10:09 pm | #

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVKc6PBYvD0

    • Needfuldoer
      Needfuldoer
      November 22, 2018 at 2:18 am | #

      Ha-ha!

      (Hey it was either that or Fargo.)

    • C.T Phipps
      C.T Phipps
      November 22, 2018 at 7:53 am | #

      I choose to believe Leland was arrested after this and spent a decade in juvenile hall before emerging into life a career criminal who later spends the rest of his life behind bars.

  16. gangler
    gangler
    November 22, 2018 at 12:07 am | #

    Okay, good revelation, but making your exit at this point might be easier said than done.

    Amber was willing to call it quits a moment ago when she thought she’d “Won”, but what happens if Sal let’s go right now?

    Plus, how do you exit this in such a way that you don’t have to deal with her stalking you for the rest of your school year?

    • gangler
      gangler
      November 22, 2018 at 12:16 am | #

      I guess, fundamentally, while I appreciate that sometimes violence can escalate things, I’m just not sure what the alternative is in situations like this, where the police will likely do nothing.

      • Clif
        Clif
        November 22, 2018 at 7:35 am | #

        Well, it was apparently Amazigirl who was doing the stalking and not Amber. And Amazigirl already had her own moment of clarity where she realized that the stalking was the absolute opposite of what Amazigirl was about. And apparently replaced the stalking goal shortly thereafter with a recruiting Sal as a sidekick goal. With mixed success, you’ll notice.

        • Zee
          Zee
          November 22, 2018 at 7:43 am | #

          The stalking was before the split though

          • thejeff
            thejeff
            November 22, 2018 at 8:46 am | #

            The stalking was before they stopped sharing memories. The split goes back further, though it’s somewhat gradual.

            For example, we can see that Amber was still having panic reactions to Sal, while Amazi-Girl was able to interact with her rationally.

            Regardless, the stalking had stopped sometime ago. Amazi-Girl had made peace with Sal and Amber hadn’t stalked her, so the idea that Sal needs to do something now to stop the stalking doesn’t really make sense.

    • DailyBrad
      DailyBrad
      November 22, 2018 at 4:53 am | #

      Danny and Ethan’s presence will, hopefully, keep it from reigniting once she relinquishes the hold.

      As for the rest, uhh, Amber can just boink Walky and everyone can go back to not being in each other’s business, hopefully. Probably not quite that simple.

    • BenRG
      BenRG
      November 22, 2018 at 5:31 am | #

      I’m pretty sure that if Sal let go now, Amber’s first question will be: “Why didn’t you finish me off? Why?!?“

    • Fela
      Fela
      November 22, 2018 at 5:35 am | #

      Amber stopped when she thought she had ‘won’, but Sal had not given up.

      Amber has clearly conceded here (apparently not just the fight, but also her life…) and according to her expression, Sal will probably be willing to end her fight.

      So, completely different situations.

    • thejeff
      thejeff
      November 22, 2018 at 8:48 am | #

      Umm, did you read the strip? “End it” isn’t exactly a threat.

  17. Mr. Random
    Mr. Random
    November 22, 2018 at 12:07 am | #

    … Oh hey. Sal’s finally grown up enough to see the cycle. It won’t last long, it never does, but let’s see if she uses her moment of clarity to break out of that cycle.

    • a4lbi
      a4lbi
      November 22, 2018 at 12:07 am | #

      I hope so. The look on Sal’s face last panel gives me a little hope.

  18. Rosicrucian
    Rosicrucian
    November 22, 2018 at 12:07 am | #

    Oh god, Leland is the one that made Marcie mute.

    • Foxhack
      Foxhack
      November 22, 2018 at 12:09 am | #

      What the hell kind of injury did he give her to make her lose her voice? Did he crush her trachea with that rock?!

      • BBCC
        BBCC
        November 22, 2018 at 12:14 am | #

        That’s what I’m thinking.

      • Lemonycain
        Lemonycain
        November 22, 2018 at 12:15 am | #

        I think he severed her vocal chords or something

      • Z
        Z
        November 22, 2018 at 4:28 am | #

        That is a crazy level of violence to enact on someone who has never hurt you. Our justice system is seriously janked that he didn’t go to juvie (assuming he didn’t but I think sal would have less issues if justice had been served on some level).

        • Fela
          Fela
          November 22, 2018 at 5:40 am | #

          Unless his two accomplices had an epiphany at some point, there’d have been a testimony problem. No fair justice system is equipped to deal with stuff like that in a satisfying fashion.

    • ktbear
      ktbear
      November 22, 2018 at 12:42 am | #

      Ana Chronistic
      September 2, 2018 at 12:01 am

      …it was Leland, wasn’t it

    • Kinoko
      Kinoko
      November 22, 2018 at 10:21 am | #

      Yeah, Sal’s hair and outfit in panel 2 match the date of Marcie’s injury, and we saw a zoomed-in version of that panel without Leland as a flashback-within-a-flashback during the robbery.

      🙁

  19. Roger
    Roger
    November 22, 2018 at 12:07 am | #

    My Longest Yeah Boy Ever. Also can’t really tell turned Amber’s mouth process into end it but i’m glad she got knocked out and not like, Strangled

  20. Piotr W
    Piotr W
    November 22, 2018 at 12:08 am | #

    What I find distressing is the “End it” plea. Amber has a death wish..???

    • LeslieBean4Shizzle
      LeslieBean4Shizzle
      November 22, 2018 at 12:11 am | #

      Yup. It even has a name. And a costume.

      • Lemonycain
        Lemonycain
        November 22, 2018 at 12:13 am | #

        oh shit…OH SHIT

        • Clif
          Clif
          November 22, 2018 at 7:37 am | #

          This is not exactly news.

        • Zee
          Zee
          November 22, 2018 at 7:52 am | #

          We been knew

      • StClair
        StClair
        November 22, 2018 at 2:42 am | #

        Well said.

      • Jago
        Jago
        November 22, 2018 at 10:28 am | #

        Nice one.

    • BarerMender
      BarerMender
      November 22, 2018 at 12:15 am | #

      Amber has always had a death wish. Remember what she said when Danny told her Sal had saved her life?

    • Bagge
      Bagge
      November 22, 2018 at 12:46 am | #

      I’m pretty sure she at least has some of martyr complex of the “she should have targeted ME with the knife” flavor.

      • Catman
        Catman
        November 22, 2018 at 4:01 am | #

        And now there’s the whole “If you kill me now, you’ll only prove my point” trope.

  21. Alanari
    Alanari
    November 22, 2018 at 12:08 am | #

    This is why Marcie losing her voice is sals “fault”! The guy she has beaten up on the playground (that “tripping” incident) hit marcie with a stone while she was restrained.

    Also, sal, it’s nice that you are learning something but amber seems to be low on oxygen right now. It would probably be a good idea to let go of her before she drops unconscious.

    • CrazyJ
      CrazyJ
      November 22, 2018 at 1:04 am | #

      If Sal lets go, Amber will probably go back to attacking her. Maybe letting Amber slip into unconsciousness and using the moment it will take for blood to rush to her brain to escape might be Sal’s best option. I mean I don’t see how Sal can talk Amber down at this point.

      • Fart Captor
        Fart Captor
        November 22, 2018 at 1:11 am | #

        Ignoring the fact that Amber was already done fighting and Sal very EASILY gotten away then or talked her down by admitting defeat or even just grumbling and leaving, Amber is ALREADY dazed from being strangled, and Ethan and Danny are RIGHT THERE.

        Even if Amber still has any fight left in her, she’s not going to get the chance.

        • Masumi
          Masumi
          November 22, 2018 at 10:00 am | #

          Maybe now Sal can get away (or start talking, I’m all for talking), but I get why she didn’t give up when Amber stopped earlier. I mean, imagine there’s this girl with a history of unpredictable violence and stalking and whatnot standing over you and starting to laugh maniacally. Also, pretty sure Amber runs faster than Sal. So keeping fighting does seem like a reasonable choice here…

          • Kinoko
            Kinoko
            November 22, 2018 at 10:24 am | #

            Sal’s motorcycle isn’t too far off, though. If she gets a head start, she can get away.

            • MatthewTheLucky
              MatthewTheLucky
              November 22, 2018 at 10:30 am | #

              Okay, word of advice: Never mount a motorcycle in the middle of a fight.

    • Zee
      Zee
      November 22, 2018 at 7:55 am | #

      Well if she can speak she can breathe so it can’t be that bad

  22. newllend(henryvolt)
    newllend(henryvolt)
    November 22, 2018 at 12:08 am | #

    Thank God they’re coming to their senses… wait actually no maybe not both I can’t tell if that “end it” meant end the fight or life. Because if that was a possible suicidal plea then…

  23. JepMZ
    JepMZ
    November 22, 2018 at 12:09 am | #

    Man, did Leland get any sort of severe punishment for this?

    Glad Sal is getting a break thru at least.

    • Bagge
      Bagge
      November 22, 2018 at 12:11 am | #

      Dunno, let’s hear what the adults in charge of such things have to say in a similar case.

      http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-7/01-glower-vacuum/liability/

      Yup. I think it is very likely that he got a severe punishment and that it was not swept under the rug. Very likely indeed…

      • Arioch
        Arioch
        November 22, 2018 at 7:51 pm | #

        Bagge, I’m pretty sure that was the first incident. The tripping. The reason that Sal attacked him…. This one….

        http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-7/01-glower-vacuum/landed/

        • thejeff
          thejeff
          November 22, 2018 at 8:35 pm | #

          It was, but I think the point was that the result was likely to be similar.

    • newllend(henryvolt)
      newllend(henryvolt)
      November 22, 2018 at 12:11 am | #

      For what? Just another ” Tripping accident.”

  24. Lemonycain
    Lemonycain
    November 22, 2018 at 12:09 am | #

    You think killing people will make them like you but it doesn’t, it just makes people dead – Voldemort

    • Bagge
      Bagge
      November 22, 2018 at 12:11 am | #

      I got that reference!!!

      • Inahc
        Inahc
        November 22, 2018 at 12:30 am | #

        I didn’t…

        • Bagge
          Bagge
          November 22, 2018 at 12:42 am | #

          Then allow me the great pleasure to introduce you to the hilarity that is “A very Potter Musical”

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmwM_AKeMCk

  25. Irredentist
    Irredentist
    November 22, 2018 at 12:11 am | #

    Violence doesn’t solve anything. Just begets more violence.

    • BBCC
      BBCC
      November 22, 2018 at 12:14 am | #

      Depends on the situation. Sometimes violence is necessary to defend yourself or a third party, or where not fighting would lead to something as bad or worse as fighting to defend yourself.

      I might be biased though. Ignoring my abusive best friend didn’t stop her, crying didn’t stop her, begging to just stop ‘fighting’ and being best friends didn’t stop her, but she sure stopped when I punched her in the stomach though.

      • Irredentist
        Irredentist
        November 22, 2018 at 12:23 am | #

        I’m tired of justifications. If no one started shit, there’d be no need for anyone to claim “self defense”.

        • BBCC
          BBCC
          November 22, 2018 at 12:28 am | #

          Yeah, well, I’m tired of ‘all violence is always bad’. Like I said, one punch in my so called ‘friend’s’ stomach and she left me alone more or less for two years before she changed schools. This was after 3 or 4 years of pretty solid emotional abuse. I don’t regret anything.

          • Irredentist
            Irredentist
            November 22, 2018 at 12:40 am | #

            If she hadn’t been a dick you wouldn’t have had to punch her. Your story is not an example of why violence is good. It is an example of why violence is bad. Because it causes more violence in response.

            • BBCC
              BBCC
              November 22, 2018 at 12:43 am | #

              She was a dick, but she was never violent in a way it would matter. And while her being violent (if you accept her as violent which, again, most people don’t) lead to more violence, me punching her ended up getting her to back off and I haven’t seen her in ten years.

              • Irredentist
                Irredentist
                November 22, 2018 at 12:52 am | #

                But that only matters because she was violent and abusive in the first place. So ultimately, violence is still the problem.

                • Yumi
                  Yumi
                  November 22, 2018 at 12:55 am | #

                  Right, but what you said was, “Violence doesn’t solve anything.” Then BBCC offer an example from her life where she felt violence solved something. You can argue that the issue that was solved was itself caused by violence, but that’s still something.

                • Irredentist
                  Irredentist
                  November 22, 2018 at 1:08 am | #

                  That just seems like a circular argument to me. Violence can be good sometimes because it might stop other violence? I can’t see that as something to celebrate, or believe in. Because “self defense” is a matter of perspective.

                • Yumi
                  Yumi
                  November 22, 2018 at 1:12 am | #

                  I don’t think anyone’s arguing it as something to “celebrate” or even believe as much as just a recognition of how they see the world. Violence can serve a purpose. Now, would it be better if we could magically eliminate all violence? Sure. But that’s not the world we live in.

                • David M Willis
                  David M Willis
                  November 22, 2018 at 1:17 am | #

                  I feel like I’m in an Internet edit of Matt Bors’ comic about the guy who keeps trying to gotcha folks for participating in the systems they have problems with.

                  “We should try to do less violence on people.” “And yet you’re in favor of fighting back someone trying to kill you! I am very intelligent.”

                • Irredentist
                  Irredentist
                  November 22, 2018 at 1:16 am | #

                  It’s not the world we live in, because people use violence to serve their purposes.

                • Emily
                  Emily
                  November 22, 2018 at 5:14 am | #

                  This is inane semantics not a cogent argument.

                • Clif
                  Clif
                  November 22, 2018 at 7:45 am | #

                  I am in 100% agreement with Emily. Yet another sign of the end times.

                • Julez
                  Julez
                  November 22, 2018 at 9:10 am | #

                  Holy hell, I am a pacifist and even I disagree with Irredentist here. Violence should not be the answer, but sometimes it is the only way to stop more immediate and intense harm.

                • Kinoko
                  Kinoko
                  November 22, 2018 at 10:29 am | #

                  Also a pacifist. Hard same.

                  Ghandi’s form of nonviolent resistance only worked because he had a platform. It’s not something that can be easily applied to a personal grudge between two college kids.

                • BBCC
                  BBCC
                  November 22, 2018 at 10:43 am | #

                  Again, that only works if you consider her violent, and many wouldn’t. Frankly, I don’t regret slugging her, even if it was an accident, and I don’t really care if she’s considered violent or I am for throwing the only real blow in that relationship. Last I heard, she was still a twit to her friends so fuck her.

                • thejeff
                  thejeff
                  November 22, 2018 at 12:52 pm | #

                  Note that the key to non-violent resistance is the resistance, not just the non-violence. It’s not just a platform, but you need to have something your opposition wants and the means to deny it to them: Britain exploited India as a colonial possession, drawing wealth from it in the form of resources. Gandhi’s movement disrupted that wealth, through non-violent action. Strikes and the like. It was not simply a matter of shaming the British into going away as it’s often portrayed. He made it unprofitable to hold India.
                  MLK’s tactics during the Civil Rights Movement were similar: protests and marches to draw attention, but also strikes and boycotts to win specific integration goals.

                  As you say, how to apply that to a bully is not simple.

                • BBCC
                  BBCC
                  November 22, 2018 at 2:14 pm | #

                  Also, both the Indian independence movement and the civil rights movement both involved plenty of violent incidents and groups. In some instances, that helped persuade the government to listen to the non-violent group as a sort of ‘Okay, these people are willing to talk to us, while these people are going to burn this place down if something doesn’t change. Let’s go with the peaceful ones’.

                  Of course, there are also times violent protests have led to reprisals or crackdowns. the point is, most protest movements and histories involve a mix of peaceful and violent protest.

                • thejeff
                  thejeff
                  November 22, 2018 at 5:22 pm | #

                  And the non-violent resistance was also met by reprisals and crackdowns.

                  Being met with violence is generally a sign you’re being effective. 🙂

                • Emily
                  Emily
                  November 22, 2018 at 6:33 pm | #

                  The history of many successful “peaceful” uprisings are pretty heavily whitewashed by those in power to hide the role violent protest had in their success in order to try to minimize knowledge of the effectiveness of violent protest.

                • thejeff
                  thejeff
                  November 22, 2018 at 8:44 pm | #

                  Maybe. But considering how much effort those in power tend to go to paint nonviolent protests as violent riots or to actually start violence with agents provocateurs and the like, I’m not so sure.

                  One thing I suspect they do is to emphasize the role of simple protest and demonstration over direct action, especially non-violent action.

              • Koms
                Koms
                November 22, 2018 at 1:08 am | #

                I’m glad she left you alone. You had to do that for self preservation.

                • BBCC
                  BBCC
                  November 22, 2018 at 10:22 am | #

                  Honestly, I slipped on some ice while I had my fists clenched (I was angry because she and her friends were tormenting me again). But she thought it was on purpose and I wasn’t about to set her straight.

                • Kinoko
                  Kinoko
                  November 22, 2018 at 10:50 am | #

                  BBCC, I’m so sorry that happened to you. I’ve been in similar situations where I wasn’t able to fight back either because I was too scared both of my bully and of becoming her. I’m glad circumstances eventually worked out so that yours left you alone.

                • Kinoko
                  Kinoko
                  November 22, 2018 at 10:51 am | #

                  (In my case, I ended up moving to another country and never saw her again, so I turned out fine. Though she did try to add me on Facebook years later and I was like “AHAHAHAH NO.”)

                • BBCC
                  BBCC
                  November 22, 2018 at 10:55 am | #

                  MINE TRIED TO ADD ME ON FACEBOOK TOO. Twice, actually. I stared at it for a bit and then finally said ‘You gotta be fucking kidding me.’ and deleted the request with extreme prejudice.

                  I was afraid of getting in trouble if I hit her or swore at her or yelled at her (I actually did get detention once because I screamed at her in class. My mother was LIVID. My teacher knew about what a piece of work my ‘friend’ was – apparently I was not her only target in my class. She was just too close to retiring to give a shit, and our principal was absolutely gutless. Her solution to everything was to separate the students fighting. The good news is that for the next two years, we weren’t allowed to be in the same class. Which is probably for the best. I got a lot more confident over those two years and had no problem telling her to shut her damn mouth on the two occasions she tried shit after that).

              • Arioch
                Arioch
                November 22, 2018 at 8:18 pm | #

                BBCC, I am genuinely sorry all these things happened to you. Unlike most folks on here apparently, I do not consider myself as having the luxury to be a pacifist. I wish I could. I will punch a Nazi. I will defend the helpless. I will use my white, cishet, (etc) privilege to defend people and stand in front of those that aren’t part of those categories and if someone tries to hurt my friends, I hit back. I’ve lost a lot, I’ll be damned if I lose more without a fight. I got bullied a lot as a kid, by teachers and students. I am surprisingly unafraid of bullies.
                Bullies sort of feed me. They get started and my brain remembers that I don’t have a flight reflex because of my bullies only a fight reflex. It’s why I don’t like crowds because crowd anxiety can cause me to go into fight response – which I don’t want to happen ever. I am lucky, I have people who help me with it. So, I don’t like violence, but I can’t claim that I am a pacifist. My brain isn’t wired that way. My brain thinks the only safe way out is through and only a few trusted people can keep me calm enough that I trust myself in large crowd.

                • BBCC
                  BBCC
                  November 22, 2018 at 11:19 pm | #

                  No worries, I’m over her now. Last I heard she lived several hours away and she can fucking stay there. I don’t like bullies either. I’m just not good at doing IRL confrontations for the most part. I’m much better when I can write what I want to say. Or telling people to fuck off, that happens too.

        • Zero
          Zero
          November 22, 2018 at 12:40 am | #

          But there is a need, so I’m tired of the fact that you just said victims need to stop.

          • Irredentist
            Irredentist
            November 22, 2018 at 12:43 am | #

            Victims need to stop what?

            • Zero
              Zero
              November 22, 2018 at 1:14 am | #

              Protecting themselves.
              Did you forget what you said? It’s still there.

              • Irredentist
                Irredentist
                November 22, 2018 at 1:24 am | #

                I don’t think victims need to stop defending themselves. My apologies if it came across that way.

                • Questionor
                  Questionor
                  November 22, 2018 at 3:31 am | #

                  You wanted no need for anyone to “claim” self-defense. Not that no one would need to defend themselves. You’re literally saying self-defense is not a valid “excuse”, that it isn’t “real”. This amounts to saying they shouldn’t defend themselves because that’s not a good excuse for violence. So maybe you didn’t mean that but it *is* what you said. Words matter. Especially when those word are victim blaming.

                • ischemgeek
                  ischemgeek
                  November 22, 2018 at 6:34 am | #

                  Your exact words:

                  I’m tired of justifications. If no one started shit, there’d be no need for anyone to claim “self defense”.

                  Explain to me how your scare quotes around self-defense can be interpreted as anything other than deep scorn for the concept. Especially in the context of the previous sentence.

                  When I was a kid my dad was an abusive shitbag who only stopped terrorizing me (read: beating me up and regularly threatening murder) because I got big enough to shove him off me and threatened to ruin his life if he touched me again without killing me. Please explain how 16YO me (outweighed by 75lbs and outmatched in height by 6″) could have resolved his abuse without shoving. Asking him to stop didn’t work. Crying just made him angrier. Complying with his every whim was impossible. And I couldn’t leave because i had no transport because we lived 100km away from the nearest shelter and it was October. Do tell.

                  My father was a bully. The only language bullies respect is force. The only way they will stop preying on someone is if that person no longer seems weak enough to be an easy target. That can happen socially or physically, but it will only ever stop for real when the victim is able to show the bully they cannot be abused without consequence.

                • Bicycle Bill
                  Bicycle Bill
                  November 22, 2018 at 8:12 am | #

                  what ischemgeek said … in spades.

                • Irredentist
                  Irredentist
                  November 22, 2018 at 8:51 am | #

                  I do have deep scorn for the concept of self defense, as well as for the politics of strength. I feel that too often “self defense” is used as justification for violence when it is unnecessary. Especially in this country, and especially against people of color. So ultimately I think it is better to view all violence as bad. Even self defense, even when necessary. That doesn’t mean don’t do it. But I don’t accept that ultimately, it really solves anything.

                • thejeff
                  thejeff
                  November 22, 2018 at 12:43 pm | #

                  Self defense certainly is abused, as you say, but the concept isn’t inherently flawed. To some extent, it’s necessary.
                  And even without self-defense, some potential for legitimate violence must exist. Some really bad things can’t reasonably be stopped without it. But then the potential for abuse exists with state violence as well as with self-defense.

                  So at the very least, we’re going to need to distinguish between levels of badness in violence: Joyce’s violence against Ross wasn’t as bad as Ross’s violence.
                  But then by painting even that as bad, we’re in the position of shaming and criticizing those who are already using violence only in defense, making them less willing to do so when necessary. To quote Joyce’s brother John: “That’s a pretty extreme reaction.”

        • Axel
          Axel
          November 22, 2018 at 12:42 am | #

          Yeah, if no one started shit. People DO start shit though, and violence can be the only way back out.

          • Irredentist
            Irredentist
            November 22, 2018 at 12:44 am | #

            Sure, sometimes violence is “necessary”. That doesn’t make it good.

            • Renadt
              Renadt
              November 22, 2018 at 1:13 am | #

              No one ever said that. Violence is never good. But there are people who do like hurting people. And the only language they understand is that. And when you have a situation like Leland’s (take, for instance, Brock Turner), violence becomes the only answer.

              • Clif
                Clif
                November 22, 2018 at 8:05 am | #

                Irredentist: Sure, sometimes violence is “necessary”. That doesn’t make it good.
                Renadt: No one ever said that. Violence is never good.

                I said that. Violence is a tool. As with any tool, whether it’s good or bad depends on the use you make of it. Violence is frequently an inappropriate tool. It can lead to all kinds of unintended consequences. It is occasionally the only effective tool you have. Saying violence is never good is simply silly.

                • Emily
                  Emily
                  November 22, 2018 at 8:36 am | #

                  Like, that guy punching Richard Spencer in the face? Extremely good.

                • Irredentist
                  Irredentist
                  November 22, 2018 at 8:37 am | #

                  I don’t think it is good, even when it is necessary.

                • Kinoko
                  Kinoko
                  November 22, 2018 at 10:44 am | #

                  The Richard Spencer face punch is actually a really good example of this thorny-as-hell problem. I’ve always been conflicted about it.

                  On the one hand, it was an unexpected attack on guy who was giving an interview. On the other, a Nazi got punched in the face for spreading Nazi hate.

                  TBH, anyone advocating for fucking genocide shouldn’t be surprised when they are punched in the face. Due to my own tendency towards pacifism, I personally do not know if I could punch him in the face. But I’m not going to tell other people if they should or shouldn’t. I don’t think that’s up to me to say.

                  Also, the fact that I can find the ethical ambiguity of the situation fascinating is due to my own privilege at not being his target. If I were, maybe I personally would want to punch him, too.

                • Emily
                  Emily
                  November 22, 2018 at 10:58 am | #

                  Yeah it’s hard to find the ethical complexity in punching someone who wants to subject you to genocide.

                • Rain
                  Rain
                  November 22, 2018 at 9:06 pm | #

                  Richard Spencer getting punched was like, good on all sides. Being repeatedly punched when he showed his face has led to Spencer expressing an inability to attend rallies. He and other Nazis have specifically said, among their own, that their agenda has been dramatically slowed by antifa protests and violence. And we all benefit when nazi agendas are slowed down.

                • thejeff
                  thejeff
                  November 22, 2018 at 10:39 pm | #

                  I do think it’s best when those protests can dominate non-violently. Street fighting isn’t the best approach, even if it’s sometimes necessary.
                  Opportunistic punching of Nazi representatives is useful to keep the leaders heads down. Groups like antifa work best in a defensive stance, I think. Keeping Nazi groups from doing their own violence and intimidation. And just organizing and protecting larger counter protests. Making them look few and weak rather than persecuted.

            • Fart Captor
              Fart Captor
              November 22, 2018 at 1:17 am | #

              Actually, people defending themselves from violence is extremely good. What’s bad is people being forced to do so.

              And take the “necessary” out of scare quotes unless you’re prepared to let some angry bigot beat you or a loved one to a pulp for the sake of smug moral superiority

              • Irredentist
                Irredentist
                November 22, 2018 at 1:22 am | #

                I only put it in quotes because what is “necessary” is largely dependent on context and perspective.

                • Fart Captor
                  Fart Captor
                  November 22, 2018 at 1:46 am | #

                  Yes. I know. That’s why I objected to it. Nobody gave a hypothetical scenario where context or perspective even would exist. They just referred to the concept of “self defense” and your response was to question the necessity.

                • Irredentist
                  Irredentist
                  November 22, 2018 at 8:36 am | #

                  Context and perspective always exist.

                • Emily
                  Emily
                  November 22, 2018 at 8:37 am | #

                  Not when you’re referring to a concept outside of any specific context.

        • Kim
          Kim
          November 22, 2018 at 12:43 am | #

          +1!

          • Kim
            Kim
            November 22, 2018 at 12:47 am | #

            (To irredentist, that is)

        • Keulen
          Keulen
          November 22, 2018 at 1:01 am | #

          Sometimes the people who start shit are bullies who won’t stop until you respond with violence.

    • Michael Steamweed
      Michael Steamweed
      November 22, 2018 at 12:43 am | #

      Sometimes the only way to stop a constant source of violence is to use violence against it.

    • CJ
      CJ
      November 22, 2018 at 3:32 am | #

      Even Marschall Rosenberg said that in some situations, you have to stop the ongoing violence first. And unfortunately that may mean to resort to enough violence to get to the stop.

      • Meagan
        Meagan
        November 22, 2018 at 5:45 am | #

        Hey you are familiar with MBR’s work? Me too. Do you remember where you read that about him saying violence can be necessary? Are you talking about his concept of “protective use of force”?

        • CJ
          CJ
          November 22, 2018 at 8:55 am | #

          Yes, “protective use of force sounds about right”. I think it was during an Q and A in a seminary he did for professionals that I saw on DVD.

          The distinction between force and violence can be difficult to determine.

          • Meagan
            Meagan
            November 22, 2018 at 9:12 am | #

            Yes, the criteria to distinguish between protective use of force and unilateral force (coercion) are not objective, IMO. I have been involved in the NVC community for years, and I have seen people use the idea of protective force to justify what to me seemed like coercion at the time – eg stopping teenagers from using drugs, which to me seemed like a normal part of most people’s adolescence and personal exploration. Now that I am older I feel somewhat differently about it – but I do not necessarily think it is because I am wiser. It might have more to do with having lost empathy for the deep need for autonomy that tends to increases with force around puberty.

            But for me the difference between an intention to protectively use force and violence is not wanting to hurt the person (punish them). In physical fights this could look like an aikido style of fighting, with an emphasis on restraining the person with minimal effort and damage. Ideally I try to find ways to do that in non-physical situations too.

            Too often there is a portrayal of a false dichotomy between fighting and hurting someone in self defense or just taking abuse. There is a third path of nonviolent self defense. Eg aikido, techniques of setting boundaries wth NVC, etc

            • CJ
              CJ
              November 23, 2018 at 7:23 am | #

              I can see where you are coming from. It’s rather easy to find a reason why the own acts are justified uses of force while the other people’s are acts of violence. I actually rather prefer to define all instances of physical force as violence, because then it is clear that you need a really good reason for it. It avoids a “me good, you bad” mindset in situations where an absolute “good” just isn’t in the books. But I see that this way to look at things might hinder others to keep themselves safe, so anyone should find their own way to express their ethics.

              While people like gashface and toedad are on the extreme part of the human spectrum, stopping them must come before any NVC can be tried. It doesn’t work with people who have no empathy, and people in extreme situations tend to shut away that ability so you need a cool down period for them anyway. Real psychopaths never have empathy and cannot be reached by it, but luckily, those are few and far between.

              If you think of groups or nations at war, this is slightly different as it may be necessary to talk to parts of those groups while others are still involved with violence, because usually, you do not have the resources to put a stop to their violence or at least don’t want to involve even more people to stop them.

    • Ed Rhodes
      Ed Rhodes
      November 22, 2018 at 8:55 am | #

      #6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it. – Seventy Maxims of Effective Mercenaries.

  26. Derek
    Derek
    November 22, 2018 at 12:11 am | #

    how the fuck did Leland shove a sharp rock into a girl’s throat, PERMANENTLY DISABLING HER, and not go to jail for attempted murder??

    • BBCC
      BBCC
      November 22, 2018 at 12:12 am | #

      Probably crushed her throat with it.

      As for how he’s not in jail – easy. Rich, white kid with well connected parents.

      • Derek
        Derek
        November 22, 2018 at 12:19 am | #

        I would say “there are crimes that even the rich and powerful can’t get away with once they become public”, but I know better than that. thinking about it is crushing

    • Bagge
      Bagge
      November 22, 2018 at 12:15 am | #

      As far as I can tell, the adults involved chose not to shine a light at the alleged attack. After all, they don’t know if the girl is homeschooled or if she’s an… an… an illegal, but most adult probably worked managed to convince themselves it was just not their liability. After all, Leland is a good student. A very good student from a good family with a promising future. This wouldn’t seem like him at all. Just because Sal claimed he did… something there was no reason to… to shine a spotlight, considering all that’s at risk. I’m pretty sure they felt the best solution would be to dissuade the girl who got stabbed in her throat with a rock from doing anything that might put her near Leland in the future. She’s kind of the source of all this.

      The adults involved are horrible at adulting.

      • linkman0596
        linkman0596
        November 22, 2018 at 12:22 am | #

        One thing it seems like everyone glosses over, if Marcie’s family are illegal immigrants, then could getting the cops involved make things worse for her than for Leland? I mean, they did just list out all the reasons why the cops might overlook Leland’s behavior, but could getting Marcie’s family on the cops radar lead to them getting deported? Part of me wonders if that was part of the conversation the adults were having back then that Sal was just too young to pick up on

        • BBCC
          BBCC
          November 22, 2018 at 12:29 am | #

          Potentially, it could. Sal knows that’s risky though and it doesn’t prevent the school from punishing Leland for shoving another kid in a ditch full of concrete and rebar.

        • CK
          CK
          November 22, 2018 at 12:47 am | #

          Side note, but iirc Sal mentioned to Marcie that if elected, Robin DeSanto wouldn’t hesitate to deport her parents, so I think that’s pretty direct confirmation that they are here illegally?

          • Needfuldoer
            Needfuldoer
            November 22, 2018 at 2:24 am | #

            Well, considering how many in the red ball cap club would deport anyone who doesn’t look like them, regardless of birthplace…

            • Z
              Z
              November 22, 2018 at 4:40 am | #

              Yeeeeup. Countries can rescind citizenship. We don’t like to think itbecause we like to feel safe but the reality is government has scary levels of power.

              • Clif
                Clif
                November 22, 2018 at 8:08 am | #

                This!!!

              • thejeff
                thejeff
                November 22, 2018 at 8:58 am | #

                Or just deport people without letting them prove their claim to citizenship. Which has happened.

                Or the current “We think some midwives near the border were faking birth certificates for kids actually born on the wrong side, so we’re assuming all such birth certificates are fake unless you can prove otherwise. While locked up. Before we can deport you.”

      • CJ
        CJ
        November 22, 2018 at 3:23 am | #

        How did Billie manage to grow up friends with Sal and be naive about homeless people no longer being in the city (you remember her calling home when Becky showed up)?

        • Fela
          Fela
          November 22, 2018 at 6:08 am | #

          Homeless ‘illegal’ immigrants

          • Fela
            Fela
            November 22, 2018 at 6:09 am | #

            Hmpf, there was supposed to be arrows indicating ‘not the same as’

        • Zee
          Zee
          November 22, 2018 at 8:10 am | #

          She was more friends with Walky than sal. I don’t think they ever really hung out

          • CJ
            CJ
            November 22, 2018 at 9:00 am | #

            Oh, you are right, I misremembered. Starts to look like Billie became the substitute daughter after Sal was sent to catholic school.

          • BBCC
            BBCC
            November 22, 2018 at 10:26 am | #

            Walky and Billie have been friends since they were five, but I don’t think she and Sal have ever been very close. Billie sees Walky as something akin to a brother, while she very much doesn’t seem to see Sal as a sister.

        • the final pam
          the final pam
          November 22, 2018 at 8:38 pm | #

          How would being friends with Sal even correlate with knowing about the status of homeless people in their city? Marcie’s not homeless, and Sal’s not shown to be friends with any homeless people or to talk about any homelessness issues.

          • BBCC
            BBCC
            November 22, 2018 at 11:14 pm | #

            They might be misremembering and thought Marcie was homeless, or at least lived in a place with lots of homeless people. The only thing related to homelessness with Sal was the shocked expressions on her face while Billie was being…well meaningly ignorant.

    • newllend(henryvolt)
      newllend(henryvolt)
      November 22, 2018 at 12:16 am | #

      Sharpened the rock with another rock?

    • timemonkey
      timemonkey
      November 22, 2018 at 12:17 am | #

      Marcie’s family may not have been in a position to press charges.

      • cbwroses
        cbwroses
        November 22, 2018 at 12:22 am | #

        For violent crimes, a lot of states don’t require the victim to place charges.
        That said, I don’t know if that’s the case in this state.

      • Derek
        Derek
        November 22, 2018 at 12:23 am | #

        I’m not very well versed in US law, do people actually need to press charges when there’s strong physical evidence? if I got assaulted the police wouldn’t arrest my assailant until I specifically said I want to press charges?
        I might be interpreting that wrong, it seems massively flawed

        • Marlowe
          Marlowe
          November 22, 2018 at 12:31 am | #

          When the perpetrator is white, and especially if he/his family is ‘connected’/’respected’/etc., strong physical evidence oftentimes isn’t nearly enough. Especially if it’s possible to pin the blame on the victim.

          “Justice for all”

          • Bicycle Bill
            Bicycle Bill
            November 22, 2018 at 8:17 am | #

            American justice is where two people get together in court to see who could afford to hire the better lawyer. Justice very rarely has much of anything to do with it.

            • Marlowe
              Marlowe
              November 22, 2018 at 12:59 pm | #

              ^^this guy gets it

        • Vukodlak
          Vukodlak
          November 22, 2018 at 1:23 am | #

          No, the prosecutor could still charge the assailant without your cooperation. You the victim could even be thrown in jail for contempt of court by refusing to testify.

          So for instance say someone did beat you with in an inch of your life and it was caught on camera and by three witnesses. If the DA can positively identify the perp without you he/she will.

    • Kris
      Kris
      November 22, 2018 at 12:27 am | #

      I mean I guess we don’t technically know he’s not in jail do we? I’m gonna believe he’s in jail until told otherwise. I’m also gonna believe he has such bad diabetes he had to have one of his feet cut off and he’s so fat now he’ll probably die in his forties and has to be weighed by a scale used for horses. BBC has a documentary on him. “I’m literally a giant sack of human waste” :Shining a light on Leland. Airing next fall.

      • Derek
        Derek
        November 22, 2018 at 3:40 pm | #

        I get your sentiment but maybe let’s not use fatness as a punishment for bad people

    • Alanari
      Alanari
      November 22, 2018 at 12:27 am | #

      Do we know nothing happened?

      Also, it’s possible that marcie never called police to protect her parents from being deported.

      • thejeff
        thejeff
        November 22, 2018 at 9:02 am | #

        When you wind up rushed to the hospital with a major throat injury, it’s not a matter of you calling the police. They come and ask questions. Marcie might not have been able to communicate at first (not just unable to speak, but put out for surgery or whatever), but Sal was a witness.
        Despite her distrust for authority, would she really have lied to police, making up a story about it being an accident?

        • BBCC
          BBCC
          November 22, 2018 at 10:26 am | #

          For Leland? I doubt it.

    • BenRG
      BenRG
      November 22, 2018 at 2:03 am | #

      You’d be surprised how many pre-teen psychopaths get a free pass because ‘they’re just a kid’. Having wealthy, well-connected parents who can afford expensive lawyers who can dish out a sob-story about ‘a child with a bright future who went too far in a moment of enthusiasm’ helps to that end too.

      Then they’re adults and do something bad and, as they’re carted off to the big house for life, the parents and everyone from their past shake their heads and mutter that they don’t know where they went wrong.

    • FacelessDeviant
      FacelessDeviant
      November 22, 2018 at 10:02 am | #

      Most likely he got away with it because he was a minor.

  27. BBCC
    BBCC
    November 22, 2018 at 12:12 am | #

    Oooooh, more anxiety panels from Sal! Fun!

    …

    Well, I’m having fun anyways.

    And of course, I suspect this turning point will be delicious.

    I was curious whether we’d see more red panels from Sal before the arc was over. Interesting how a couple weren’t red initially and now she’s put the pieces together they are.

    I love these anxiety flashbacks even as they make me sad. Well done, Willis <3

    We can see more blood in the stabbing flashback now that it's Sal's pov too. Nice touch. The visual callback with how Sal was choking Leland vs how she's choking Amber is nice too.

    On that note, this is a weird time to bring it up, but I hate how Sal's dressed in a lot of her flashbacks. You can practically SEE the way her parents had their influence in it and I hate it. She still dresses to please them when she sees them. FUCK the Walkertons.

    As for that evil little toad, Leland…yeah, I'm not sure what would be the best way to handle him. Reporting him was useless, doing nothing's not an option when you have a sense of justice like Sal's. It frigging BURNS doing nothing and it haunts you and makes you feel almost as bad as the actual injustice does because you SAW the injustice and you KNOW its unjust but you didn't do anything for it. And with guilt issues like Sal's (thanks to a cocktail of emotional abuse, survivor's guilt, systemic injustices, and that aforementioned keen sense of justice), it would absolutely torture her over it and every other little thing that could relate to it. So yeah, doing nothing? Definitely not an option. The one time she even suggested it, it went out the window five seconds later when AG nearly got her teeth knocked down her throat. And obviously choking him came with splash back (which also resulted in the robbery because ahhhh violence is cyclical). My best advice would be wait for a way to nail him that can't be tied too strongly back to you (and by extension your loved ones) I guess.

    This is why we pick our battles. Normally its so we don't write a check with our mouths that our asses can't cash, but with Sal, aiming for de-escalating and looking to nail folks while doing the least possible collateral damage would be a good start.

    …Alternatively, choking him a little longer or a little harder would've solved that problem too, but it also would've created a new problem (going to juvie if not jail for a fucking long time), so I guess it's for the best.

    …Now if you all don't mind, I'll be over here imagining an anvil dropping and smacking that kid in the head. Real fucking tragedy.

    • Marlowe
      Marlowe
      November 22, 2018 at 12:27 am | #

      Insert douchebag A into woodchipper B. Slowly.

      That’s my theory.

    • Axel
      Axel
      November 22, 2018 at 12:45 am | #

      > As for that evil little toad, Leland…yeah, I’m not sure what would be the best way to handle him.

      Wolves

      • BBCC
        BBCC
        November 22, 2018 at 10:27 am | #

        My current story is he ended up going somewhere schmancy like Yale (‘such a good family’) and then got busted in like the first week for being a drug dealer when he sold a mountain of dangerous shit to an undercover cop.

        I will not part with this story easily.

        • 3oranges
          3oranges
          November 22, 2018 at 12:31 pm | #

          Maybe you can compromise though. Busted in the first week, then eaten by wolves?

          • BBCC
            BBCC
            November 22, 2018 at 2:03 pm | #

            I can live with that.

          • Foxhack
            Foxhack
            November 22, 2018 at 2:19 pm | #

            Oh no. Poor wolves. They probably got the shits for weeks.

            • BBCC
              BBCC
              November 22, 2018 at 3:05 pm | #

              Robot wolves?

        • Marlowe
          Marlowe
          November 22, 2018 at 1:00 pm | #

          He got out of the charges by presenting a calendar indicating he was hanging out with PJ and Squi.

          • BBCC
            BBCC
            November 22, 2018 at 2:03 pm | #

            Nope, can’t hear you, he’s currently in jail forever for selling a mountain of illegal and dangerous drugs to an undercover cop.

    • BBCC
      BBCC
      November 22, 2018 at 11:20 am | #

      Small addition – I like finally knowing why Sal blames herself (and why Marcie makes a >:( face when she does).

  28. stoodmuffin
    stoodmuffin
    November 22, 2018 at 12:13 am | #

    NOW she’s putting shit together?!

    NOW She’s getting that she’s the…

    wait. IS THAT RYAN

    • Some1
      Some1
      November 22, 2018 at 12:15 am | #

      That’s Leland, then again Ryan is his middle name so maybe its Leland Ryan ____

      But I doubt it

      • BBCC
        BBCC
        November 22, 2018 at 12:17 am | #

        Nah, we’ve seen them in a picture together and their noses are different.

        • Needfuldoer
          Needfuldoer
          November 22, 2018 at 2:26 am | #

          Pretty sure this theory was nipped in the bud on Twitter or Tumblr, too.

    • newllend(henryvolt)
      newllend(henryvolt)
      November 22, 2018 at 12:15 am | #

      Nah possibly his cousin.

    • Sam
      Sam
      November 22, 2018 at 12:17 am | #

      No, that is Leland. Different character.

    • Koms
      Koms
      November 22, 2018 at 1:18 am | #

      No, Mr. Willis has confirmed that they are different people. But as a whole Leland, Ryan, Toedad, Blaine, Mary, Peter, Ruth’s grandpa, they are the antagonists where no matter how much violence you may wish upon them, it doesn’t seem to be enough.

  29. newllend(henryvolt)
    newllend(henryvolt)
    November 22, 2018 at 12:15 am | #

    So you got into it with that one psycho kid in the 1st panel, which then led to you getting yourself and Marcy into this other mess with the same psycho rich bongo in the 2nd panel, then you tried to fix it to with very questionable means which got you into the mess with Ethan in the 3rd panel, which led to the life ruining tragedy in the 4th panel, which has carried onto the escalation of this present day’s tragedy.

    • Catman
      Catman
      November 22, 2018 at 5:10 am | #

      I read this in Captain America’s voice.

  30. Darkoneko
    Darkoneko
    November 22, 2018 at 12:15 am | #

    This never ends well, does it.
    Stranglehold suddenly switches to hug !

  31. Delicious Taffy
    Delicious Taffy
    November 22, 2018 at 12:16 am | #

    Well, Sal, you heard the girl. /sarcasm

    But hey, maybe she’ll finally realise that chokeholds in particular are the cause of every problem she’s ever had in her entire life.

    • Delicious Taffy
      Delicious Taffy
      November 22, 2018 at 12:22 am | #

      Also, Jesus Christ, Amber. I guaran-fucking-tee you Sal isn’t holding her nearly as tight as all that. Fucking overdramatic, even for her.

      • BarerMender
        BarerMender
        November 22, 2018 at 12:31 am | #

        When the mouth is stretch open and the blackout bubbles are forming, that’s tight.

        • Delicious Taffy
          Delicious Taffy
          November 22, 2018 at 12:39 am | #

          Sure, but not “I can see the light! Is that you, Grandma?” levels of tight. Sal may be pissed, but she’s not stupid.

      • Inahc
        Inahc
        November 22, 2018 at 12:34 am | #

        the bubbles above her head suggest otherwise.

        • newllend(henryvolt)
          newllend(henryvolt)
          November 22, 2018 at 12:38 am | #

          No no tardy is referring to Amber possibly saying “Kill me” even though it could just be her saying “End this fight” it’s either or but I hope it the last one.

          • Delicious Taffy
            Delicious Taffy
            November 22, 2018 at 12:40 am | #

            Tardy? This is dangerously close to calling me late for dinner. You’re on thin ice, buddy.

            • Koms
              Koms
              November 22, 2018 at 1:19 am | #

              Hahhahahahhahahahahhaa

  32. Axel
    Axel
    November 22, 2018 at 12:16 am | #

    Fully thought Sal was blushing in the last panel, like she just got the most uncomfortable boner from her flashbacks.

    (I didn’t think she did have one, just that she looked it. I am now aware that it’s blood)

    • BBCC
      BBCC
      November 22, 2018 at 12:18 am | #

      Pretty sure it’s a bruise. She had one there in earlier strips. Could also be a scratch from Amber knocking her to the ground.

      • Axel
        Axel
        November 22, 2018 at 12:40 am | #

        I was thinking a scrape, they get that bloodyish look but stay in place like that.

        • BBCC
          BBCC
          November 22, 2018 at 5:17 pm | #

          That’s true! That could be it.

  33. Derek
    Derek
    November 22, 2018 at 12:17 am | #

    we know that Amber is dealing with depression on top of her other mental illness, but was she ever suicidal?
    I feel like in the last panel she is saying “kill me, because I have fulfilled my life’s purpose of defeating you once”

    • Needfuldoer
      Needfuldoer
      November 22, 2018 at 10:49 am | #

      That’s how I read it.

  34. Michael Steamweed
    Michael Steamweed
    November 22, 2018 at 12:18 am | #

    In units of fucked-up-ness per square inch, this strip beats every comic ever. :O

  35. newllend(henryvolt)
    newllend(henryvolt)
    November 22, 2018 at 12:22 am | #

    This damn cycle man, when does it end?

    • Catman
      Catman
      November 22, 2018 at 5:13 am | #

      After the e! 🤣🤣🤣🤣

      OH I laugh because my heart hurts

  36. Josh Spicer
    Josh Spicer
    November 22, 2018 at 12:25 am | #

    Cycles.

    They make a story.

    Both in the positive ways…and the sad ones.

  37. goggleman64
    goggleman64
    November 22, 2018 at 12:25 am | #

    YES! YES!

    YOU CAN DO IT, SAL! YOU CAN END THE CYCLE; I BELIEVE IN YOU!!!

    • Goki
      Goki
      November 22, 2018 at 12:37 am | #

      Damn… I thought I was hateful….

      • newllend(henryvolt)
        newllend(henryvolt)
        November 22, 2018 at 12:40 am | #

        Could just be saying to end the cycle by stopping the fight…. at least I hope that’s what’s being implied.

    • gangler
      gangler
      November 22, 2018 at 12:43 am | #

      What would you suggest she do, to deal with her stalker, without perpetuating a cycle of violence?

      • Vukodlak
        Vukodlak
        November 22, 2018 at 12:56 am | #

        She didn’t care about her stalker until she learned it was the same girl who stabbed her in the hand years ago. Stop bringing up irreverent points.

        • gangler
          gangler
          November 22, 2018 at 12:59 am | #

          She cares today, and she’s allowed to.

          Knowing that this woman has stabbed her before is important context.

          • thejeff
            thejeff
            November 22, 2018 at 9:24 am | #

            Yes, it’s important context. Yes, Amazi-Girl not revealing that context earlier was shitty. As of course was the actual stalking, though that had stopped and they seemed to have dealt with that until now.

            But to echo your question back at you, “What would you suggest she do?” She could kill Amber. That would end the stalking (or more accurately remove any chance of it starting again, since it had already stopped.) Short of that, or of crippling her to the point where she can’t be a threat, any more violence she does will likely just make matters worse.

            What do you suggest she do?

        • Emily
          Emily
          November 22, 2018 at 5:21 am | #

          A stalker is bad. A stalker who stabbed you 5 years ago and then insinuated themselves into your life while concealing that is worse.

  38. Romanticide
    Romanticide
    November 22, 2018 at 12:28 am | #

    I was imagining it. Either Leland directly damaged Marcie’s throat or him beating her around would result in her falling in a way that it did.

    • BarerMender
      BarerMender
      November 22, 2018 at 3:51 am | #

      He must have done something to her eyes, too. Thus the red goggles.

  39. Risen Daemon
    Risen Daemon
    November 22, 2018 at 12:29 am | #

    All the weeks of shipping and this week’s big throwdown made me forget Amber has a death wish

  40. mrj
    mrj
    November 22, 2018 at 12:30 am | #

    My contribution to the lyrics people are quoting is from (as most of my song quotations are wont to be):

    When the last days come
    We shall see visions
    More vivid than sunsets
    Brighter than stars
    We will recognize each other
    And see ourselves for the first time
    The way we really are

    (It’s from the song “Against Pollution.” If it sounds inappropriately optimistic, listen to the actual song and you’ll get a better sense of the tone.)

  41. cbwroses
    cbwroses
    November 22, 2018 at 12:32 am | #

    So what I’m wondering now is was there multiple altercations between them and that asshole or did he just hold a grudge for several years until he found a couple of lamer assholes willing to help him get back at Sal and Marcie?

  42. David Doty
    David Doty
    November 22, 2018 at 12:32 am | #

    Clearly, she’s asking Sal to end the campaign to save Gotham, since it’s clear the creators have already made peace with it’s ending and have plotted out the last season to be exactly that.

  43. William Leonard Reese Jr.
    William Leonard Reese Jr.
    November 22, 2018 at 12:36 am | #

    . . .Is. . .is Amber asking Sal to kill her? Really?

    . . .She needs to be put on medication and therapy asap for her own safety.

    • Delicious Taffy
      Delicious Taffy
      November 22, 2018 at 12:59 am | #

      What, you don’t say weird suicidal shit when someone has you in a chokehold? They let go real fast, and you can get in a cheap and dirty elbow to the gut.

      Look, I was easy prey as a kid. My options were limited, don’t judge me.

      • Yumi
        Yumi
        November 22, 2018 at 1:01 am | #

        I say weird suicidal shit all the time, and it’s only cause for concern a fraction of that.

        • Delicious Taffy
          Delicious Taffy
          November 22, 2018 at 1:52 am | #

          Is it weird that I do that, too? Mostly over easily-resolved minor issues, because otherwise I’d lose my mind on a daily basis?

      • Zee
        Zee
        November 22, 2018 at 8:23 am | #

        So such thing as “cheap and dirty” if you’re getting wrecked, son
        Go for the eyes

      • thejeff
        thejeff
        November 22, 2018 at 9:26 am | #

        Is that what people are really thinking here?

        Well, I suppose the only choice then is to tighten the hold and keep it up for a couple minutes after she stops trying to trick you then.

        • BBCC
          BBCC
          November 22, 2018 at 3:26 pm | #

          I don’t think it’s what Amber’s doing, but for the record, it is absolutely what I would do as well. Try to get the other person to let me go by weirding them out and then elbow them as hard as I possibly can in their kidneys. Then I’d run like hell.

          • thejeff
            thejeff
            November 22, 2018 at 5:25 pm | #

            Note to self: If ever in a situation where you’re strangling BBCC, don’t let go when the weirdness starts. It’s a trick.

            I know what I would do in that situation: Struggle for breath, grab uselessly at their arm and try to beg for mercy. I’ve got no illusions. 🙂

            • BBCC
              BBCC
              November 22, 2018 at 6:07 pm | #

              Hey, if you’re strangling me, all bets are off. 😉

    • Keulen
      Keulen
      November 22, 2018 at 1:05 am | #

      A lot of characters in DoA could use some therapy at this point.

  44. Goki
    Goki
    November 22, 2018 at 12:39 am | #

    The text on the last panel could sooooooo easily changed to something that would be Slipshine worthy. Any takers for what could be the worst? XD

    • Michael Steamweed
      Michael Steamweed
      November 22, 2018 at 12:50 am | #

      “Finish me.”

      • Goki
        Goki
        November 22, 2018 at 1:55 am | #

        “harder”

        • MatthewTheLucky
          MatthewTheLucky
          November 22, 2018 at 2:30 am | #

          “Oh yeah, Walky~”

        • Catman
          Catman
          November 22, 2018 at 5:16 am | #

          “*oooh- harder Sally*”

    • Zee
      Zee
      November 22, 2018 at 8:26 am | #

      “I’m getting close~”

  45. brasca1
    brasca1
    November 22, 2018 at 12:42 am | #

    Yes Sal. Leland is probably living a very good life. Go off and end that.

    • newllend(henryvolt)
      newllend(henryvolt)
      November 22, 2018 at 12:46 am | #

      Probably got engaged to a fiance he beats. Sounds dark but it’s plausible.

      • brasca1
        brasca1
        November 22, 2018 at 2:20 am | #

        Like Ryan he’ll eventually be stopped. Here’s hoping his overconfidence leads him to picking a fight with someone he thought was an illegal alien, but is actually an off duty police officer who proceeds to beat him within an inch of his life and then leaves a confiscated gun on the ground so he can claim self defense.

  46. Dafydd
    Dafydd
    November 22, 2018 at 12:44 am | #

    Yeah, sorry, no — if that’s how Marcie lost her voice, I’m not seeing how it could possibly be anything but All Leland’s Fault.

    • gangler
      gangler
      November 22, 2018 at 12:53 am | #

      All fault lies on Leland, but Sal can still appreciate that when she starts choking people things can get out of hand quickly.

      From a purely pragmatic standpoint, that’s a real concern.

      • gangler
        gangler
        November 22, 2018 at 12:55 am | #

        Well, I should rephrase. Leland was a child, all fault lies on the adults in Leland’s life who made him that way. At that age you’re not really responsible for the person you are.

        I’m sure he grew into an equally shitty adult though.

        • Yumi
          Yumi
          November 22, 2018 at 12:59 am | #

          Idk, seems like telling young people that they’re not responsible for the people they are is a fine way to get those shitty adults.
          Leland was also, like, at least twelve by the time he did that to Marcie.

          • gangler
            gangler
            November 22, 2018 at 1:08 am | #

            At 12 years old you’re still very much the person the adults in your life have made you into.

            You don’t tell children they’re not responsible for their own actions, but holding them responsible for their actions is part of how you make them into a responsible person.

            Sal was just a confused kid back then. Amber was just an abused kid back then. Leland was just a privileged kid back then. They’re all adults now with the power to shake off the shackled of their upbringing, but I suspect Leland will choose not to. Privilege is pretty comfortable.

            • Yumi
              Yumi
              November 22, 2018 at 1:20 am | #

              I just disagree that there’s this clear division between children and adults and responsibility of the individual and responsibility of the environment. Leland had the power then not to do what he did. Were relational and social influences a factor? Sure. And they still would be today.

              I agree that he should now have a more formed sense of self, responsibility, all that, than he did back then. I just don’t think you’re separate from your actions/self at that or any age.

              • gangler
                gangler
                November 22, 2018 at 1:27 am | #

                I think you’re over-estimating how much capacity for independent thought a 12 year old has.

                Social influences weren’t just “A factor”. They were everything. At that age if you’d put him in a new home in a new city with a new family you could end this behavior within a year. As an adult he’s not gonna change unless he wants to.

                • Yumi
                  Yumi
                  November 22, 2018 at 1:29 am | #

                  I work with 12 year olds. I think you’re underestimating it.

                • gangler
                  gangler
                  November 22, 2018 at 1:38 am | #

                  Has one of those twelve year olds you work with ever committed a serious crime?

                  Were they tried as an adult?

                • Yumi
                  Yumi
                  November 22, 2018 at 1:42 am | #

                  Dude, you’re getting into a whole other topic now, and you’re not making the points you think you’re making.

                  As for what you said before, if Leland’s new environment had been one where he WANTED to change, then he may have changed. These are also factors that impact adults. What I’m saying is that it’s a mix of these factors and that twelve year olds are their own people.

                • Delicious Taffy
                  Delicious Taffy
                  November 22, 2018 at 2:06 am | #

                  @gangler I was “tried as an adult” when I was 12. For having my head down in class. It was considered a “criminal disruption”, and I was told to consider myself “lucky” not to get thrown in juvie.

                  “Tried as an adult” is a bullshit nonsense jumble of letters and syllables.

                • Yumi
                  Yumi
                  November 22, 2018 at 2:08 am | #

                  @Taffy: I’m honestly not sure what I just read because it seems so ludicrous, but I’m sorry that happened.

                • Delicious Taffy
                  Delicious Taffy
                  November 22, 2018 at 2:18 am | #

                  @Yumi Thanks for that. Yeah, I’d like to tell you that was the only time it happened, but I’m trying to cut down on sugarcoating this stuff.

                • ischemgeek
                  ischemgeek
                  November 22, 2018 at 7:22 am | #

                  I… have an interesting perspective to offer. I volunteer with kids and was also brought up in an extremist household.

                  12YOs from healthy, nurturing households have great capacity for independent thought. I see it every day. They’re not little adults but they are starting to figure out who they are and what they value.

                  Neither Amber nor Sal are from nurturing households. They’re from abusive households. And from my first hand experience of growing up in an abusive household, they’re all about inhibiting independent thought and instilling rote compliance. Even if you rebel, it’s very binary. You are either in the system or out. Golden child or scapegoat. Because dealing with the abuse takes so much of you, you don’t have time to evaluate who you are or what you value. You’re just reacting.

                  What I am saying is many 12YOs do have capacity to break way from what they were taught. I don’t think Amber or Sal could have. I know I couldn’t at 12. I didn’t even start till 16 or so and it is a process still ongoing at 31.

                • ǝ snow ʍousɐ
                  ǝ snow ʍousɐ
                  November 22, 2018 at 1:37 pm | #

                  Well said, @ischemgeek

        • BarerMender
          BarerMender
          November 22, 2018 at 3:55 am | #

          Children choose. They choose to be good or evil at quite a young age, though not necessarily fully consciously. The influence of adults counts for plenty, but still, they choose.

          • gangler
            gangler
            November 22, 2018 at 4:26 am | #

            Children choose small things, then, work their way up to big things. They test out their developing independence and freedom, spread their wings as far as their allowed.

            Much like a mouse in a labyrinth. Their choices are not the choices of an adult.

            If a child is still 12 and they’re making decisions like “I think I’ll go around maiming poor girls of colour” then the adults have steered them wrong. That shouldn’t have been a turn in the labyrinth. That’s not a place an ordinary 12 year old finds themselves after an ordinary upbringing with all the standard consequences for their actions.

            • BarerMender
              BarerMender
              November 22, 2018 at 5:13 am | #

              You have your assertions, I have mine.

          • gangler
            gangler
            November 22, 2018 at 4:29 am | #

            Sidenote, people are usually so eager to say Amber and Sal shouldn’t be judged by their childhood actions, but rather the adults they became, so I’m surprised I’m getting this much pushback on the notion that Leland, at this point in his life, was also likely a product of his circumstances.

            • Alanari
              Alanari
              November 22, 2018 at 6:57 am | #

              It’s way more interesting that sal is learning things about violence usually only leading to more violence and half of the comment section wants to resort to violence.

              But, you know, excuses are way more easy to accept if they are excusing someone you like.

              • Meagan
                Meagan
                November 22, 2018 at 9:21 am | #

                Yes to this.

              • BBCC
                BBCC
                November 22, 2018 at 10:58 am | #

                Yeah, I have absolutely no issues wishing violence on fictional characters. On real people, I’m more reluctant. I still call bullshit on the ‘usually violence only leads to more violence’ though. Like I said, that’s just not my experience.

            • Knayt
              Knayt
              November 22, 2018 at 7:14 am | #

              That’s a very different case though – Sal at 13 can be judged for the actions of Sal at 13. Judging Sal at 18 for them is a different matter; she’s not the same person and we’ve seen those changes. Same thing for Amber, and potentially the same thing for Leland (though we haven’t seen him change).

              It’s also not a matter of being either a product of circumstances or a responsible actor. People are both, including children.

            • ischemgeek
              ischemgeek
              November 22, 2018 at 7:41 am | #

              You have a point there.

              I was bullied horribly in school. Some of my bullies have matured into fairly average adults. One matured into someone who surprised the hell out of me by offering a genuine, no strings attached, no forgiveness expected or coerced by guilt trip apology. That perso is the only one to own up to the shit they pulled. The rest of them who are average humans just kind of awkwardly avert their eyes and avoid the topic when they see me.

              About a quarter of the kids who bullied me grew into garbage adults. But my worst bully as a kid? The one who hissed at me ro jump off a suspension bridge on a field trip because everyone hates me and wants me to die? The one who gathered a gang of friends to strip me in the bathroom? The one who slammed a 50lb lid of a steel ball crate on my head trying to kill me in gym class? And who got away with it by pretending it was an accident and later told me I should’ve just died and next time they won’t miss and get part of my shoulder too? That one.

              That one was the one who apologized. And made amends. And now volunteers with an antibullying program talking about what they did and why it was bad. And by all accounts has matured into a decent human being.

              No kid is beyond hope.

              • ischemgeek
                ischemgeek
                November 22, 2018 at 7:49 am | #

                That person for the record is the only one to have earned my forgiveness. Not that i am gonna spend time around them because their ace still makes my hindbrain go eeeeeeeeee but like I’d help them and have something to do with them now. The rest I wouldn’t even piss on if they were on fire. Not that I want them to burn. More… they have nothing to do with me anymore and that is how I want it to stay. The less involvement I have with them the better.

              • Jago
                Jago
                November 22, 2018 at 8:21 am | #

                Goddamn, that’s a hell of a lot of shit you went through there.

                • ischemgeek
                  ischemgeek
                  November 22, 2018 at 8:36 am | #

                  I was tiny, ugly, had an easy to make fun of facial deformity, had two different speech impediments, was chronically ill, from away in a rural area, and twice exceptional (gifted and autistic).

                  I basically walked around with a giant target on my back. And the adults found it easier to tell me to be normal than help me at all.

                  I am saying I really relate to Sal’s anti-authority chip on her shoulder. Also I hate bullies.

              • Jago
                Jago
                November 22, 2018 at 8:24 am | #

                (…cont., because I acciadentally hit post)
                And I have a lot of respect for you, to be honest. To go through so much and still believing in this is admirable.

                • ischemgeek
                  ischemgeek
                  November 22, 2018 at 8:39 am | #

                  I had a really angry phase where I was a bad person who almost did an unforgivable thing. But I chose to walk away from the cycle of vengeance I was taught. I can’t believe a kid is beyond hope because I would be saying it about myself.

    • Victor Riley
      Victor Riley
      November 22, 2018 at 12:57 am | #

      I think maybe it’s something on the “survivor’s guilt” side of the spectrum. She attacked Leland before for just being a racist jerk… and in retaliation, he then attacked Marcie while his cronies held her off, which led her to blame herself because a) she couldn’t save Marcie, and b) the thought that if she never attacked him in the first place he wouldn’t have done that, and c) that it should have been her instead of her best friend (which is where I think the “surivivor’s guilt” part is coming in).

    • Vukodlak
      Vukodlak
      November 22, 2018 at 1:03 am | #

      When Sal beat up Leland he retaliated by hurting Marcie. So Sal blamed herself.

      • Vukodlak
        Vukodlak
        November 22, 2018 at 1:04 am | #

        @In answer to Dafydd originally post.

      • CJ
        CJ
        November 22, 2018 at 3:13 am | #

        And it looks like Leyland knows that he can get away with hurting Marcie, so his friends are just restraining Sal.
        He became a tactical astute asshole early.

    • BenRG
      BenRG
      November 22, 2018 at 2:39 am | #

      Human emotions, especially guilt, don’t work on fact. Sal is the sort of personality that will find some way to blame herself for others actions when they somehow involve her and those she loves.

    • Zee
      Zee
      November 22, 2018 at 8:29 am | #

      She feels responsible for not being able to defend Marcie, thus “her fault”

    • FacelessDeviant
      FacelessDeviant
      November 22, 2018 at 10:07 am | #

      We still don’t know exactly what happened. It could turn out that he was using it to threaten Marcie when Sal got loose and jumped him, causing him to accidently hurt Marcie.

      Its not what I think happened, and I am not justifying anything. Just saying, part of why I like this comic is all the curve balls it throws.

    • BBCC
      BBCC
      November 22, 2018 at 10:32 am | #

      Because Sal has a massive amount of survivor’s guilt, a keen sense of justice, guilt issues, and is a victim of emotional abuse to boot which often leaves people with problems not feeling guilty.

  47. Untes
    Untes
    November 22, 2018 at 1:05 am | #

    I feel like there’s a lesson lost on a lot of commentators, and as was shown, on the characters themselves. That the whole “fault” thing is a big pile of feces.

    It’s up to the people involved to stop the cycle of violence. And at some point you have to just say no to it. Sure, your vengeance may even be righteous but that doesn’t make it the _right_ choice. Doing the right thing is awful and hard.

    At least Sal is seeing the problem with propagating the circle. It’ll be interesting to see if she turns a corner.

  48. mrnoidea
    mrnoidea
    November 22, 2018 at 1:16 am | #

    Holy shit, David.

    • Zee
      Zee
      November 22, 2018 at 8:30 am | #

      David?
      I think you’re mixed up. David is Walky, Leland is the asshole trying to kill Marcie

      • 3oranges
        3oranges
        November 22, 2018 at 12:34 pm | #

        I think this means M Willis, who is all of them.

        • ǝ snow ʍousɐ
          ǝ snow ʍousɐ
          November 22, 2018 at 1:41 pm | #

          M for Monsieur?

          • Tan
            Tan
            November 22, 2018 at 8:19 pm | #

            M for whatever Willis’s middle name is, as he goes by the name David M Willis on this site. If it has been revealed what that middle name is, I am not aware of it.

  49. Rabid Rabbit
    Rabid Rabbit
    November 22, 2018 at 1:21 am | #

    Goddammit.

    I’m not sure why, but I was really hoping Leland wouldn’t have anything to do with Marcie’s injury.

    Not because I have any sympathy for the little shit. But somehow, having Leland beat Marcie up when they were younger, and then — it’s him! Again! seems… well, lazy. As if there’s only one asshole in the world.

    Yes, it explains Sal’s guilt — her beating up Leland for beating up Marcie leads to him later injuring Marcie (a fair bit later, based on Sal’s straightened hair and the fact Marcie seems older), and thus it’s “all her fault” in her mind. But Sal’s rage against the entire system feels like it would be better justified if she’s seen this happen time and again with people other than just this one shit.

    I mean, sure, it makes a nice contrast with Amber that, as far as we can see, Sal hasn’t built Leland up as her nemesis to be stalked and destroyed. But…

    Well, at least Leland isn’t also Ryan, as some people seem to think. That would be really>/i> shoddy storytelling on Willis’s part.

    • Vukodlak
      Vukodlak
      November 22, 2018 at 1:26 am | #

      Pretty sure of Leland showed up attending the College, Sal’s behavior towards him would not be kind and forgiving. She’d probably be spending every moment willing herself NOT to kick his ass.

      • TemperaryObsessor
        TemperaryObsessor
        November 22, 2018 at 1:24 pm | #

        Yea I get the impression Sal didn’t become Amber’s nemesis until they happened to be going to the same college.
        Those three incidents don’t reflect well on Amazigirl.

    • David M Willis
      David M Willis
      November 22, 2018 at 1:39 am | #

      well i was hoping someone wouldn’t call me fucking lazy today, so i guess we’re both fucking disappointed

      • Bathymetheus
        Bathymetheus
        November 22, 2018 at 2:12 am | #

        RR was saying you are NOT lazy, although some other people seem to think you are.

        • ǝ snow ʍousɐ
          ǝ snow ʍousɐ
          November 22, 2018 at 1:45 pm | #

          RR absolutely said that Willis was lazy (see their third paragraph). They also said that he isn’t as lazy as he would be if Leland was Ryan, and some people seem to be confused about it. Saying that he could be lazier doesn’t make up for calling him lazy in the first place.

      • Bathymetheus
        Bathymetheus
        November 22, 2018 at 2:17 am | #

        . . . Because they are confused about which character is which.

    • gangler
      gangler
      November 22, 2018 at 1:41 am | #

      “As if there’s only one asshole in the world.”

      How many assailants is the average child expected to have in their life? She doesn’t live in like a Mad Max style wasteland or anything.

      • CJ
        CJ
        November 22, 2018 at 3:10 am | #

        It’s not like this is Case Closed where there is a new minor villain (minor compared to the BO) in every episode.

    • Z
      Z
      November 22, 2018 at 7:44 am | #

      Dude you are missing SO much context.

      Sal’s parents always gave her brother and Billie preferential treatment.
      All the adults around Sal sided with bullies.
      Sal’s best friend/family has potentially faced deportation many times for the crime of being born. (Or are legal and assumed to be criminals just for the color of their skin)

      It makes perfect sense for there to be ONE big bully on campus. Its common in life and fiction.

      It makes sense Sal is smart enough to see the whole system and see it as unfair.

    • showler
      showler
      November 22, 2018 at 8:14 am | #

      You get that the incidents with Leland were all connected, right? They didn’t randomly stumble across him every time something bad happened.

    • ǝ snow ʍousɐ
      ǝ snow ʍousɐ
      November 22, 2018 at 1:53 pm | #

      That’s a really stupid argument. Of course the bully she picked a fight with would be the one who was cruellest to Marcie. And in fact, it’s the heinous level of violence that Leland was inflicting on Marcie that incited her to attack him. Leland hitting Marcie in the head with a rock. She could have died. If any act of violence is justifiable due to the behavior that triggered it, it’s one trying to protect a person’s life, future, or mental stability.

      • ǝ snow ʍousɐ
        ǝ snow ʍousɐ
        November 22, 2018 at 2:02 pm | #

        Not sure exactly if the first two panels occur at the same time, but no matter of the timeline, you can be sure Sal knew damn well how boundless and merciless Leland’s violence toward Marcie was. It’s not just because Leland was such an asshole that anyone would attack him; it’s also because she knew Marcie would be lucky to make it to adulthood unscathed. And now Marcie is blind due to that m’f’er.

        It’s not lazy writing to have Leland involved in both Marcie’s muteness and Sal’s punishment; it’s a reflection of how unbelievably horrible Leland was.

        • BBCC
          BBCC
          November 22, 2018 at 2:25 pm | #

          Not quite.

          Incident 1: Leland kicks Marcie into a ditch full of concrete and rebar. He goes unpunished and Marcie is banned from the playground when Sal tries to report it. The next day, Sal strangles Leland.

          Incident 2: Leland and his buddies attack Sal and Marcie while they’re skating and he crushes Marcie’s windpipe with a rock. Sal and Marcie are 12 at the time and have turned 13 by the time the robbery happened so Sal’d been trying to fundraise for a while between then and the robbery.

        • thejeff
          thejeff
          November 22, 2018 at 5:30 pm | #

          Since it’s not quite clear, there’s a significant time gap between those two incidents. I don’t think we know how old they are in panel 1, but they’re noticeably younger than 12. Several years, I’d guess.
          Even here in the closeup, you can see Sal’s different hair style.

          • BBCC
            BBCC
            November 22, 2018 at 5:59 pm | #

            Yeah, almost certainly younger than 12, especially based on the character models.

    • Tan
      Tan
      November 22, 2018 at 8:36 pm | #

      > “As if there’s only one asshole in the world”

      Do you not see the two guys holding Sal back and grinning? Putting aside that the whole idea of ‘Sal choosing to solve her problems with violence comes back to bite her’ cycle would get lost if it wasn’t Leland, it is very clearly not JUST Leland.

      It had to be Leland. If it wasn’t Leland, Sal would’ve gotten the last hit in when she choked Leland, then either we need to go back and setup a backstory with the hypothetical new person to escalate into the attack on Marcie, mirroring the backstory with Leland that is already set up as a mirror to present day, or it’s just a rando we don’t know or care about. Either of these options weakens the narrative. For what? To prove life has more than one villain? That’s already emphasized in the entire rest of the comic. We have lots of different types, forms, and degrees of villain for each of the cast, including, as we see here, each other and themselves.

  50. Koms
    Koms
    November 22, 2018 at 1:24 am | #

    I regret not having enough money and the currency exchange rate being so high. Then I could look into the future.

  51. Sunny
    Sunny
    November 22, 2018 at 1:29 am | #

    But around WHAT do we go? The world?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yca6UsllwYs

  52. OnyxIdol
    OnyxIdol
    November 22, 2018 at 1:36 am | #

    They both look weirdly cute in the last panel.

    • Yumi
      Yumi
      November 22, 2018 at 1:37 am | #

      They’re goddamn adorable and it’s weird.

  53. PB
    PB
    November 22, 2018 at 1:36 am | #

    Oh god.

    Leland made Marcie mute.

    And am i reading it wrong or … or is Sal seeing herself in Amber in the last panel?

    Also IS AMBER SUICIDAL?!?!

    • Jago
      Jago
      November 22, 2018 at 8:05 am | #

      She is certainly self-destructive, even if I’m not sure if I would call that suicidal. She does throw herself in potentially life-threatening situations a lot.

  54. BenRG
    BenRG
    November 22, 2018 at 1:57 am | #

    Sometimes you let yourself become a monster. Sal realises that now. Additionally, as I speculated yesterday, Amber rather wants to die rather than face her own monster inside.

    Maybe, just maybe, this is the turning point for them.

  55. brasca1
    brasca1
    November 22, 2018 at 2:13 am | #

    The issue is not violence begetting violence. It’s fighting smarter not harder. I imagine this escalated from Sal’s first encounter. She probably would’ve retaliated if she wasn’t so busy trying to raise money help Marcie. Mike Warner on the other hand would’ve destroyed Leland without ever laying a hand on him because he would find his center of gravity and destroy it.

  56. acher4
    acher4
    November 22, 2018 at 2:35 am | #

    Break the circle and all, that’s good.
    But kind of concerned that Sal does not remember on the panels that the start of the circle, started with Leland shoving Marcie on broken rocks and steel rods.
    She is not the villain. Leland is…
    He tried to murder someone for ffs – twice!
    I hope he appears again in the comic as a serial killer getting his deserved justice – preferably from Sal, Marcie, Amber/Amazi-girl etc.
    And then the grownups, when it’s learned he is a serial killer, are all like … “Wow, he was such a good boy, a very good white boy”

    • BenRG
      BenRG
      November 22, 2018 at 2:38 am | #

      “It was affluenza! The money and ease we lavished on him made him unable to make moral choices! So, it isn’t his fault and he should be let off with a wrist-slap!” Frankly, there is nothing better at self-delusion than authority figures trying to excuse themselves for failure.

      • abysswatcher1993
        abysswatcher1993
        November 22, 2018 at 3:51 am | #

        Mike was right. We have the bad habit of forging white men easily.

        • abysswatcher1993
          abysswatcher1993
          November 22, 2018 at 3:51 am | #

          forgiving*

          • Catman
            Catman
            November 22, 2018 at 5:22 am | #

            No. Forging is both more fun and accurate.

            Accurate because we live in a society that builds up this kind of behavior, and tends to look the other way as opposed to ctively forgive, and fun because I imagine a dwarf with a massive hammer going hard on a lump of metal that looks vaguely humans.

  57. BenRG
    BenRG
    November 22, 2018 at 2:40 am | #

    The more I think about it, the more I’m really worried about this subtly suicidal edge to Amber’s personality.

    • Bagge
      Bagge
      November 22, 2018 at 2:42 am | #

      So is Sal

      http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/03-when-god-closes-the-door/proud-2/

  58. Peregrinus
    Peregrinus
    November 22, 2018 at 2:42 am | #

    As I say to my students, “Good fight, good night.”

    Choke ’em till they’re out, put ’em down, and resist the temptation to stomp on their heads. The choke is the best, most definitive way to end a fight, and if done properly, it is less risky than beating someone unconscious with the associated brain trauma. It’s not risk-free, but nothing in a fight ever is.

    And that is why you avoid violence whenever possible. The right thing to do in this situation is to walk away. I wish Sal had when Amber was obviously spoiling for a throwdown. Were I her teacher, we’d be having a long talk, and doing a LOT of pushups together – her for not walking away, and me for having failed to teach her sufficient restraint.

    Speaking as a lawyer, yeah, something unpleasant could come of this if anyone were seriously hurt and/or the school was hot to press the issue, which for insurance reasons, they often are. Not to mention possible civil liability. And I’m not at all surprised that Leland got away with his murderous assault. Rich white boy, ethnic victim? I see it all the time.

  59. ScarletSabre
    ScarletSabre
    November 22, 2018 at 2:53 am | #

    Anyone else sincerely hope Sal murdered Leland? Or at the very least broke every bone in his body in irreparable ways?

    • BenRG
      BenRG
      November 22, 2018 at 2:57 am | #

      No, because she’s a good person and doing something like that would destroy her, assuming she was able to survive it on a physical level.

    • Sporky
      Sporky
      November 22, 2018 at 5:56 am | #

      I’m pretty sure if she did that she would have gotten sent to prison

      • Jago
        Jago
        November 22, 2018 at 7:51 am | #

        She was like 14, she would’ve gone to juvie.

        • ischemgeek
          ischemgeek
          November 22, 2018 at 8:00 am | #

          She’s black. The news would be plastered with the scariest photo of her they could find and they would have dehumanized her with racially charged euphemisms (e.g. thug), and she would’ve been tried as an adult.

          • ischemgeek
            ischemgeek
            November 22, 2018 at 8:23 am | #

            I have seen the news refer to black teens as adults on numerous occasions. In one case, covering a fight between a white adult man, aged 20, and a black teenager, who I think was 17 or so, the news called the white guy a boy and the black kid a young man.

            • Jago
              Jago
              November 22, 2018 at 8:34 am | #

              Coulda happened. I don’t know the American justice system, and when and how teenagers can be tried as an adult.

              • thejeff
                thejeff
                November 22, 2018 at 9:49 am | #

                It’s really screwed up. The whole “tried as adults” thing is such a horrific idea. Maybe some gray area to avoid huge differences in treatment between cases just barely under the line, but currently it seems to mostly be based on “Is it a serious crime” and “Is the perpetrator unsympathetic”, which mostly means not-white.

                • TemperaryObsessor
                  TemperaryObsessor
                  November 22, 2018 at 1:36 pm | #

                  I think instead of getting out of juvie on your 18th birthday they should make the maximum punishment for a child a certain percentage of there age. Without the whole getting tried as an adult thing the maximum sanction for a 17 year old would be less than a year, but the maximum punishment for a 7 year old would be 10 years.

                • the final pam
                  the final pam
                  November 22, 2018 at 8:45 pm | #

                  @TemperaryObsessor That sounds even worse than the actual system and unfairly targets younger offenders with longer sentences. Like, using the ages you used as an example, a 7 year old is so much more different than a 17 year old with a much more underdeveloped brain and understanding of emotions and empathy. An older teenaged offender should be held to higher responsibility than a younger one simply because their capacity for their actions is much more than a child.

                • thejeff
                  thejeff
                  November 22, 2018 at 10:46 pm | #

                  That is the actual system. One of the side effects of our approach is that for those treated as juveniles, any punishment ends at maturity: when you turn 18. Currently, you could keep a 7 year old in juvie until they turned 18, but a 17 year old would also be released at 18, only a year later.

                  His approach would change that: making the maximum punishment for a child a certain percentage of their age. As you want, older kids would be punished longer for the same crimes.

                  Mind you, I think the actual point of any juvenile justice system should be reform, not punishment. Any justice system, for that matter, but especially for kids – they need to be helped, not just punished.

          • Piotr W
            Piotr W
            November 22, 2018 at 11:55 am | #

            “Thug” is a racially-charged word? I’m asking out of curiosity, I’ve never thought about it that way.

            • ischemgeek
              ischemgeek
              November 22, 2018 at 12:16 pm | #

              At lwast where I live, yes. It disproportionately is applied to PoC.

              • BBCC
                BBCC
                November 22, 2018 at 12:29 pm | #

                The news and other media often disproportionately use it for black people too. Reminds me of those guys who called Sal a thug at the rally.

                • Piotr W
                  Piotr W
                  November 22, 2018 at 1:41 pm | #

                  Interesting. I thought they called her a thug because AG started fighting her… a superheroes fight thugs.

                • BBCC
                  BBCC
                  November 22, 2018 at 1:56 pm | #

                  That might be why they thought she was a troublemaker (though, of course, the idea that superheroes or police or whoever must always be right and the other must be doing something wrong has been proven…naive at best, especially when they’re confronting people of colour and double especially when they’re confronting a black person) but the word ‘thug’ was almost certainly deliberate by Willis.

                • the final pam
                  the final pam
                  November 22, 2018 at 8:47 pm | #

                  For anyone interested, here’s a piece by NPR regarding the racially charged meaning of thug: https://www.npr.org/2015/04/30/403362626/the-racially-charged-meaning-behind-the-word-thug

                  There’s several other pieces like it too if you search for it.

  60. Emily
    Emily
    November 22, 2018 at 2:55 am | #

    “End it”, but “it” is the cycle of abuse.

    • Delicious Taffy
      Delicious Taffy
      November 22, 2018 at 4:20 am | #

      “End it” but every time letter is replaced with the entire Bee Movie script.

  61. abysswatcher1993
    abysswatcher1993
    November 22, 2018 at 3:42 am | #

    It all makes sense, and Sal just realized it. That bastard wanted revenge and harmed Marcie, so Sal was desperate to help her friend because she felt she was responsible for the crime of him.

    She almost harmed Ethan years ago, but she unknowingly traumatized an already disturbed kid.

    We become monsters when we let our abusers influence us to become like them, and those like Amber that are afraid of become abusers can feel the need to end their own lives.

    Now I want to punch a nazi and get a beer, even if I don’t drink alcohol and beer tastes like shit. Maybe Joyce has grape juice.

    • abysswatcher1993
      abysswatcher1993
      November 22, 2018 at 3:45 am | #

      Also, I would punch the parents of that kid for allowing his sociopathy to grow.

  62. Icalasari
    Icalasari
    November 22, 2018 at 4:03 am | #

    So can we all agree that Mike needs to be loosed on Leland?

    • Bobcat
      Bobcat
      November 22, 2018 at 5:13 am | #

      Aye!

    • Catman
      Catman
      November 22, 2018 at 5:24 am | #

      Except he can’t be directed to him, otherwise he may chose to play nice to annoy the person who does the directing. He has to think it’s his idea.

      Someone get Leonardo.

      • Drunk Mike
        Drunk Mike
        November 22, 2018 at 10:44 am | #

        What if Leland was directed to Mike? Or what if Amazigirl was directed at Leland? What if Leland was directed into traffic?

      • BBCC
        BBCC
        November 22, 2018 at 11:06 pm | #

        Mike might be persuaded to help Sal and Marcie if he gets to be a dick to Leland. He was helpful to Joyce in exchange for getting to be a dick to Joe.

        I’m just imagining Sal saying let Mike do whatever he wanted to Leland and we all get to see how foul Mike’s mind can really get.

  63. Zaxares
    Zaxares
    November 22, 2018 at 6:05 am | #

    FINISH HER!

    *Sal uses Friendship*

  64. Jago
    Jago
    November 22, 2018 at 7:42 am | #

    Ouch, yeah. Patterns. Shit.

  65. JoeCovenant
    JoeCovenant
    November 22, 2018 at 7:44 am | #

    “We have fought and bested me. Now we are friends.”
    “Umm, I…”
    “WE ARE FRIENDS!!!!”

  66. Jago
    Jago
    November 22, 2018 at 8:04 am | #

    I get it, I think. Personal responsibility. For yourself and by extention also fow how what you do affects others.
    Amber really needs to learn that, because she *isn’t* her father, she’s Amber, and she needs to try and get better.
    Sal, I think, just got what Marcie said to her a while ago. About not wanting to be the ‘collateral damage’.
    In short, therapy was invented for a reason.

  67. Guest42
    Guest42
    November 22, 2018 at 8:21 am | #

    Holy introspection Sal

  68. Nym
    Nym
    November 22, 2018 at 8:32 am | #

    Oh, this is good. The red panels make it so that while Amber means one thing, what we the reader hear (and what Sal, I think, hears) is to end the cycle of violence, these consequential events of people making bad choices leading to people making bad choices. Yes, Sal, end it. Let Amber go and either talk it out or walk away. Let it be over.

    • Jago
      Jago
      November 22, 2018 at 10:17 am | #

      Well said.

      • poofdepoof
        poofdepoof
        November 22, 2018 at 12:55 pm | #

        +1

  69. FacelessDeviant
    FacelessDeviant
    November 22, 2018 at 9:43 am | #

    “Despite all my rage
    I am still just a rat in a cage
    Then someone will say
    What is lost can never be saved
    Despite all my rage
    I am still just a rat in a cage!

    And I still believe that I can not be saved”

    I find this lyric pretty apt for this strip.

    (Its Smashing Pumpkins – Bullet with butterfly wings)

  70. JBento
    JBento
    November 22, 2018 at 9:52 am | #

    Happy Thanksgiving to the ‘Muricans! o/

  71. Poofdepoof
    Poofdepoof
    November 22, 2018 at 10:59 am | #

    This is a great strip.

  72. Piotr W
    Piotr W
    November 22, 2018 at 11:59 am | #

    This strip is how Sally “Give Peace a Chance” Walkerton was born. Ten years from now, she will be a respected social activist. Thirty years from now, she will receive a Nobel Peace Prize. One thousand years from now, people will still follow the wisdom from the Book of Sallandra.

    … alternatively, she gets Born Again and becomes Joyce 2.0. That’s possible, too.

  73. Mr. Random
    Mr. Random
    November 22, 2018 at 1:10 pm | #

    … Something else I want to say.

    “I have to because…” is a motivation that speaks to a lot of these.
    Unreasonably so, (Most in the second) but still.

    I have to fight because my friend is in danger.
    I have to attack because then they won’t respect me.
    I have to rob because I won’t be able to help.
    I have to strike because she threatened my friend.

    I have to…

    But they didn’t.

    • BBCC
      BBCC
      November 22, 2018 at 1:59 pm | #

      That’s not quite what happened. Sal attacked Leland after he’d already hurt Marcie the first time and reporting him didn’t work. That was mostly a desire for SOME sort of consequence for that little brat. Which, obviously, ended up biting Marcie in the ass because bullies like Leland don’t generally like consequences.

      ditto for Amber – not QUITE an act born from a desire to protect Ethan. Sal had already been stopped and restrained. Some of it was anger at Sal, some bit of protection for Ethan certainly, but for Amber, it was primarily because her father pushed her until she snapped and showed him she could do what he said (violence).

      • thejeff
        thejeff
        November 22, 2018 at 5:41 pm | #

        for Amber, not quite, but partly. It was Blaine’s goading, but he was goading her specifically about not protecting Ethan: “Only one other kid who tolerates you and you couldn’t even stand up for him.”

        • BBCC
          BBCC
          November 22, 2018 at 6:01 pm | #

          Goddammit, it looks like that went from ‘some of it protection for Ethan certainly’ into ‘some bit of protection for Ethan certainly’.

          Damn typos.

  74. ego
    ego
    November 22, 2018 at 1:24 pm | #

    i’ve run enough RP games that i understand sometimes you have to bend the characters for the sake of the plot, but sal having more fresh rage than ancient regret over that episode is so far out of her character as i understand it that this whole sequence just feels like shark-jumping. the absurdity in the violence really reinforces this.

    • BBCC
      BBCC
      November 22, 2018 at 2:01 pm | #

      Sal does have regret over both the robbery and the fight with Leland (mostly because he ended up hurting Marcie). She’s also angry Amber stabbed her and received no sanction whatsoever, parentally or legally, and then as an adult proceeded to stalk and harass her over petty things, and then when they were making peace fighting Ryan, she still didn’t feel it necessary to tell her she was the one who stabbed her.

      There’s plenty of room for both regret and anger at Amber and AG with Sal. And more than enough room for a violent fight between them.

      And frankly, since Leland kicked Marcie into a ditch full of concrete and rebar, I’m not shocked he’s also willing to crush a girl’s throat with a rock.

    • Sam
      Sam
      November 22, 2018 at 6:22 pm | #

      I don’t think she has MORE rage than regret, but this general fight is a moment where it triumphed over regret because of racism being one of things we know truly grinds her gears. Amber was allowed to stab her in the hand and get away with it without consequence – from Sal’s perspective, that was racism, and that likely is part of why Amber was allowed to get away with that completely. From ours, we can see that was Amber having a violent mental breakdown because of her father’s verbal abuse after an event she found traumatic to begin with.

      Sal’s feelings of anger are valid and even possible to expect – she didn’t PHYSICALLY hurt anyone and someone else got away with physically hurting her when she was restrained. That wouldn’t have seemed fair to her. And she didn’t have the context of how fragile Amber was at the time or how her father lambasted her for not fighting back. Of course you would still feel really damn angry at someone who has partially messed up your hand to the point you can’t say, play guitar any more if you met them again and thought they completely got away with it. Your hand is still messed up and they didn’t get any consequences for doing it (to your knowledge), while you got punished for threatening another kid but not actually hurting them. A sense of a lack of fairness is aggravating when someone else did something bad and you’re the only one punished.

      • BBCC
        BBCC
        November 22, 2018 at 8:05 pm | #

        I mean, race was definitely a factor in why Amber wasn’t arrested for it. I guarantee you this story would be very very different if Amber was black or latina.

        • thejeff
          thejeff
          November 22, 2018 at 8:52 pm | #

          Or for that matter if Sal was white. (and assuming somehow she got pushed into the same robbery situation anyway.)

          Apparently, at least in capital cases, the biggest factor is the race of the victim, not the defendant, though that obviously matters. I’d be surprised if the same didn’t apply in lesser cases, though I haven’t seen any actual data on it.

          • BBCC
            BBCC
            November 22, 2018 at 9:56 pm | #

            Yeeep.

    • Deadjolras
      Deadjolras
      November 22, 2018 at 9:04 pm | #

      It’s important to note as well that Sal’s anger isn’t only due to the incident from five years ago. It’s more along the lines of “you stabbed me years ago AND you’ve been stalking me and harassing me for weeks now!”, which is definitely something to feel “fresh rage” over.

      • BBCC
        BBCC
        November 22, 2018 at 11:05 pm | #

        This too.

  75. ǝ snow ʍousɐ
    ǝ snow ʍousɐ
    November 22, 2018 at 2:13 pm | #

    Updated the Trivia section of Marcie’s page in Walkypedia.

    • BBCC
      BBCC
      November 22, 2018 at 2:18 pm | #

      God bless. I haven’t been there in a while and I’m supposed to be an admin.

      Thank you!

  76. Nikol Geier
    Nikol Geier
    November 22, 2018 at 3:06 pm | #

    Putting aside all the emotions, all the complicated who’s-right-who’s-wrong argument, all the trauma, all the horrible consequences this will have…

    Let the record show, for those who have been bickering about it, that Sal definitely won this fight.

    • Remmington Steele
      Remmington Steele
      November 22, 2018 at 3:11 pm | #

      Her’s is a phyrric victory. She’ll take no comfort in it.

    • BBCC
      BBCC
      November 22, 2018 at 3:13 pm | #

      Fight might not be over yet.

      • BBCC
        BBCC
        November 22, 2018 at 3:16 pm | #

        Seriously, y’all, did you learn nothing from both Amber and Sal making that mistake? 😛

        • Emily
          Emily
          November 22, 2018 at 6:37 pm | #

          I’d really prefer it was if for no other reason than it’s been going for like 6 days now and I just don’t care anymore. 1 4-6 panel page a day is a terrible medium for tense fight scenes.

          • BBCC
            BBCC
            November 22, 2018 at 11:12 pm | #

            Party pooper. 😛

      • thejeff
        thejeff
        November 22, 2018 at 5:48 pm | #

        I think it’s over. I thought it was over yesterday and I still think I’m right.

        I think they both won.

        • BBCC
          BBCC
          November 22, 2018 at 6:02 pm | #

          I’m more concerned whether Amber would agree with that assessment. She based her sense of victory on what she thought was a physical victory. i just hope she doesn’t feel worse.

          • thejeff
            thejeff
            November 22, 2018 at 8:54 pm | #

            I hope not. Judging by today’s strip, I think at least she’s not itching for another try.

            • BBCC
              BBCC
              November 22, 2018 at 9:56 pm | #

              I don’t think she will either. I’m hoping this will end now.

  77. zaratustra
    zaratustra
    November 22, 2018 at 3:09 pm | #

    Amber: harder mommy
    Sal: what
    Amber: what

  78. Remmington Steele
    Remmington Steele
    November 22, 2018 at 3:16 pm | #

    Luckily, there is no Paris to kill our Achilles.

  79. caramellos
    caramellos
    November 22, 2018 at 3:25 pm | #

    À-propos of nothing, I just got my kickstarter package for the last DoA run today and am distraught to note that, due to moving to a place with an integrated kitchen, I don’t have a fridge anymore to put my new sweet ass magnets on. Devastation!

    I think I’d already assumed from how it was being discussed that leland had f’ed up marcie and was responsible for her lack of speech ability, though others’ comments here lead me to believe it wasn’t clearly indicated in the comics so I guess I had assumed with no clear evidence.

    • BBCC
      BBCC
      November 22, 2018 at 4:36 pm | #

      It’s always been a reasonable guess, but this is our first confirmation. Before now, loathsome as Leland is, he had the verdict ‘guilt not proven’.

    • Axel
      Axel
      November 22, 2018 at 5:17 pm | #

      I thought it was obvious and agreed upn as such, but more and more people were like ‘nah’ after the one with the skateboards

  80. Pag
    Pag
    November 22, 2018 at 7:10 pm | #

    God damn, I chose the right time to catch up

  81. Kelli217
    Kelli217
    November 22, 2018 at 9:43 pm | #

    End it. End the cycle of violence.

  82. Roe
    Roe
    November 22, 2018 at 11:48 pm | #

    Happy Thanksgiving!

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