Evangelical theologically seems to have a knack for always claiming that Jesus Christ would support whatever most directly aligns with political views its followers already had. Even when it seems to directly contradict what he said in the gospels!
Modern Evangelical theology seems to be conspicuously based on Southern Antebellum Christianity that weaponized cherry picking and slant to their interpretation of the religion.
For example, they argued slavery would help convert slaves to Christianity and when many slaves did….just kept them as slaves. They also removed the book of Exodus from sermons to slaves for…some reason.
To be fair, the brand of Christianity I was raised in does the exact same thing, just in reverse. We happily cherry pick hippie Jesus, and ignore the rest.
Or aren’t taught the least savoury parts, which comes with its own problems. But also hilarity at times when we discover, hmm, other interpretations. Like the Prosperity Gospel, which is really funny, in a dark, twisted way.
A lot of it has to do with the covenants. The rainbow is one of them. Jesus’ teachings and death issupposed to be one of these big “contracts with God”. A covenant replaces all the stuff that was rules before it. So while the older stuff is there for historical relevance, all the hippy Jesus stuff is supposed to be the important thing.
But since what’s in that new Covenant (other than faith in Jesus being needed to be right with God) is never explicitly spelled out, you still have to cherry pick which parts don’t count anymore. Much of the New Testament involves various authors arguing about that.
I’ve recently had an American Christian try to convince me that Jesus was all about leaving a big inheritance to your children, and besides that totally apolitical.
They don’t understant the core tenets of their own proclaimed religion.
One should imagine that the “needles eye” and “give all you possesions to the poor” passages where sufficiently clear on the topic.
But then, so should “thou shalt not kill” or “live by the sword, die by the sword”, yet most of that crowd are steadfast militarists and 2nd Amd. fans.
I wasnt aware of that.
Thanks for pointing out a bad argument.
I only ever read translations in english, polish and german which all use the generalized wording I cited.
But shifts in meaning due to translations are another can of worms for a supposedly infallible text.
I can’t tell you how many sermons, or Bible studies, or whatever, I have sat through and they go over the rich man being told to sell all his possessions, and the very, very first thing that the pastor says is something along the lines of, “… but Jesus isn’t actually saying in this that he WANTS you to go and do what he told the rich man to do… this is just to demonstrate that we can’t be perfect and why we need Christ!”
You know. As he speaks to an audience of older white boomers, the men who have cushy well-paying jobs, and the women who live as homemakers for children long gone, as they complain to their friends that no one wants to work anymore.
They can list off how many verses that say something along the lines of “sExUaL iMmOrAlItY!” but face them with something that looks directly at them, they’ve got a convenient out.
Even when I was a believer, I was frustrated at the knots some of my fellow Christians would tie themselves into trying to explain how the “eye of a needle” wasn’t literal (while everything else is.) They love the (completely unsubstantiated) myth that there was some gate in the city called “Eye of the Needle” and so it’s not impossible for rich people to go to heaven, they just have to “unburden themselves” like camels do to go through that gate! In other words, so long as they’re going to church and say the right words, they can be as rich as they want, and somehow aren’t contradicting anything Jesus said. They’re like that with anything that actually confronts them with something uncomfortable.
Quote: “You should not be afraid of someone who has a library and reads many books; you should fear someone who has only one book; and he considers it sacred, but he has never read it.” Couldn’t find a source for this, but feels at least relevant-adjacent.
Their supporters OR their own pockebook.
I still marvel at how that scene managed to make follwing a guy, who supposedly raged against the moral toxicity of personal wealth, morph to a point where preachers flex personalized Caddillacs and buy private jetplanes.
That’s a big reason why I say God is mostly just a rhetorical device.
God believes whatever you believe, but by attributing your opinions to a higher entity, you imbue it with more authority than if you were just some guy with an opinion, and it becomes harder to argue against.
It can be tempting to try and beat them at their own game. To go searching for a bible verse that contradicts them as if it’s some sort of counter-spell to their bullshit.
But none of that really matters. What matters is they know a guy whose word is indisputable and who backs up everything they say, but you haven’t met him.
“I think gay people are gross and icky” isn’t a campaign platform.
“God is sending gay people to hell” is something people rally around and turn into policy.
The rhetorical benefits of attributing your own thoughts to a hypothetical entity who is above reproach are enormous. But ultimately, that’s all it’s ever been.
People who like gay people will claim that god likes gay people, and people who don’t like gay people will claim that god feels the same. It’s like that with any issue under the sun. As soon as you state your opinion that way, people can’t argue with you, they have to argue with god.
I’ve never met somebody who feels that god disagrees with them.
Having the ultimate appeal to authority is pretty neat.
“My opinion is backed by the all-knowing expert on everything.” basically shuts down any possibility for discourse.
My understanding of American Christianity is that it’s based on just three core precepts:
1. Be loud and performative. You’re not a real Christian if you don’t make a show out of it! Pray constantly, go to Church every day, say rote phrases like “Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior” and it doesn’t matter how you actually feel, what you actually think!
2. Be hateful. God put you on this Earth so that you could make your neighbors’ lives miserable. This is especially true of the poor, the downtrodden, the homeless, the minorities and the outcasts; those are the ones that you need to attack at every opportunity.
3. Be whiny. Never forget that you are the real victim here, the only real victim.
A colleague told me “we shouldn’t judge slavery by today’s standards because it was just accepted back then” and besides in the future people would judge us because of abortion.
People in the future can do whatever they need to do, but I know for damn sure that slavery was not accepted by its victims. Or by a lot of other people either. Unless nothing can be wrong if it is accepted by those in power.
Which one sounds more fun?
Having other people serve you hand and foot and generate free income for you?
Or fighting an opressive majority opinion enforced by the aristocracy, where nearly everybody you meet considers you a dangerous radical who ruins society?
I´ve been an enviromentalist activist most of my life, and I can tell you: my depressions are not genetic.
Even within the abolitionist movement there were a lot who wouldn’t want to be judged by today’s standards. End slavery? Yes! Live with free black people as equals? Not so common. Lots of alternatives were suggested, including shipping them all back to Africa. Along with the pretty common assumption that slave owners would need to be paid compensation for the loss of their property.
I think there’s also a bit of humility involved in not judging history by today’s standards: The vast majority of us, if raised in past times, wouldn’t have still somehow had the moral standards of today. Whether on slavery or LGBTQ rights or something else, we’re all products of our own culture, not unique souls who would have had the same beliefs where ever and when ever we were raised.
100% chance I’d have been on whatever side I was raised on as a child, though I’ve changed in adulthood now. So probably then.
I have no problem judging the past by our best current ethical understanding now. Of course things will evolve in the future, and they’ll judge us. It’s not like I can put them in jail – I just think we should knock them off the pedestal we built for them when our understanding was, um, more basic.
And also, while this wouldn’t apply so much to American racial slavery, farther back in the past, while the enslaved still certainly didn’t want to be slaves, that doesn’t mean they were opposed on principle, just that they didn’t want to be on the wrong side of the deal.
There are, I believe, cases of people enslaved as war captives who were rescued or otherwise freed and then took slaves of their own.
It was just treated as the way things were.
By the time of American slavery, there were definitely movements opposing the institution more broadly.
Hopefully Leslie’s not in jail. Hopefully Robin got her opportunity to shout “Don’t you know who I am?!” while being shoved into the back of a police car.
Have we really gotten any moments of Leslie being a mother figure to Becky since the timeskip? I feel like we must have, but it is a dynamic that felt more prevalent before the timeskip.
i’m sure she’ll be around. unless tehre’s some last min parental visit by /her/ parents or so but i’m sure she would take the time to shoot becky a text
This is extremely not true. He’s like family to her, and I’m pretty sure it was stated that he helped her set up a bank account, get her own phone, sign up for financial aid, and get enrolled at the school. I think she just can’t stand to be around Joyce and Dorothy being all cutesy right now.
I have had no judgment one way or the other towards Joyce but if she doesn’t immediately run after her BEST FRIEND WHO IS HURTING SO BAD,she will have lost me.
I think that would be the most self-serving and inconsiderate thing for Joyce to do. There is quite literally nothing at all that she can do or say to make this situation less of a knife in the heart for Becky RIGHT NOW. Sure, she’ll come to terms with it… but not because it’d be nice for others if she could hurry it up and do so right now so they don’t have to feel anything but the thrill of their new love situation.
As a card-carrying White Person, any other white folks over 30 should definitely, definitely go back and read newspapers and magazines about politics from when they were kids. It’s Fun*!
* Fun is the thing where you hurt a lot and then get really angry, right?
The main newspaper and magazines stuff I remember seeing when I was a kid as far as politics went was about 9/11. Definitely, uh… definitely lots of ‘LOOK AT ALL THIS DEATH!! WE GOTTA GO KILL THOSE BAD GUYS!! YEEHAW AMERICA OOOOH SAAAY CAN YOU SEEEEE”.
I remember trying to explain to some forum goers from different parts of the country that in my part of America, the Confederacy did nothing wrongTM. No, it was the barbarian Northern murderers who stopped the South that would have eventually made slavery illegal on their own peacefully. Oh and they were treated well.
Sometimes looking back at your own self only a few years ago and can do nothing but cringe and shudder, right?
G´damn I used to be sexist af at twenty, all the while considering myself a feminist ally. Thank godess my first SO was a strong gal who patiently beat me onto a better path.
I’ve already seen it a few times as an adult, but a couple of months back I unpacked my adjectives rewatched my Schoolhouse Rock DVDs. The ones about American history are just chock full of Bicentennial-era propaganda for the kiddies – the “Great American Melting Pot” (assimilation), “Elbow Room” (lebensraum “manifest destiny”), “No More Kings” and so on. Hooo boy.
All I remember about Enid Blyton books is the Famous Five ruled, the Secret Seven were a bunch of dweebs and every small English town had approximately eight hundred counterfeiters in it
A teen-times friend had his childhood collection of Blytonbooks carefully arranged so that you saw-
The Famous Five go camping
The Famous Five have plenty of fun
The Famous Five get into trouble
The Secret Seven
Pretty sure my mom has OCD (I do too) and it manifests as having to check every news station and multiple newspapers. She’s stopped getting the paper, but has a complex ritual for which stations to watch from 6am until 10pm and cross reference their takes. For some reason I have vivid memories of reading the newspaper headlines about Bill Clinton’s impeachment on my dad’s kitchen table.
The apartheid reference is weird though. We don’t know exactly how old Jocelyne is, but it can’t be old enough for that, unless pro-apartheid magazines were a thing for well over a decade after it ended. Hank would have been in his mid-twenties then.
Me, a chilean, going back to read the newspapers of my childhood:
“DICTATORSHIP IS OVER EVERYTHING IS AWESOME
WE HAVE ONLY HAD 2 7.0 EARTHQUAKES THIS DECADE!!!”
“Debating” Kirk was a lot like playing chess with a pigeon. He’d knock over all the pieces, shit on the board, and then strut around declaring himself the winner.
Thanks everyone for the information about the late Charle Kirk. I found it too exhausting to sift through his social media litter box. It’s good to know we still have people who can critically think. We might just survive the next 3 years.
I like that Becky’s ultimate reaction to Joyce coming out seems to be nuanced. She clearly doesn’t hate Joyce and Dorothy, obviously. She also isn’t 100% fine with this, since she’d had feelings for so long and comforted herself with ‘well Joyce is straight so it’s fine’. I think, ultimately, all she needs is some space, some time with Dina, other friends, and she’ll be okay.
…Granted, being roomies with Dorothy means space is gonna be a bit difficult, but she’s not being unreasonable or hateful. She’s just hurt and pretty deep in the feels.
I wager there’s a bit of guilt and self-loathing in there too. “I have Dina, the most wonderful person in the world, I love her to death, WHY DOES THIS STILL HURT SO MUCH?!” type stuff.
I can see that too. Reminds me of when she felt inadequate as a girlfriend, bought Dina the giant velociraptor plush and threw her a big party then felt even shittier about it after.
Also, that arch-enemy thing she started with Dorothy is biting her in the ass, because viewed through that lens, her enemy won and she lost. Which of course she knows rationally doesn’t make sense, but don’t underestimate the power of a lie you’ve acted on enough times to make it seem true even to you.
The joking aspect of that rivalry I think was almost definitely a coping mechanism for the very real jealousy and insecurity Dorothy made her feel and, well, those feelings are coming home to roost now.
“You still have feelings for Joyce?”
“I love you, but yeah, I knew her for a long time and it hurts finding out I wasn’t rejected for the reason I thought.”
“Oh, I understand.”
Girl needs some serious therapy, stat. She’s still reeling from the idea that her sexuality may be fluid, which triggered some suicidal ideation in her – and which has had her emotionally vulnerable all week (in universe). If she weren’t in such a vulnerable spot, she wouldn’t have been so shaken by the revelation of Joyce and Dorothy being a thing (it would still have stung, but she’d have been able to process it in a more healthy way – one that would include taking Hank up on the dad pizza and bringing Dina along for it). At least she’s going the “quietly self destruct” route rather than the “take everyone down with me!” route in this depressive spiral – but it’s still a REALLY unhealthy place to be.
Possibly pedantic note: maybe I’m misreading, but “triggered some suicidal ideation” seems like everything was fine and then the idea of fluid sexuality alone prompted suicidal thoughts that hadn’t existed previously.
To me, it seems more likely that such thoughts were already there but crushed beneath Becky’s exuberance and strong self-image. The idea that her “I’m a lesbian! High Five!” approach to life mightn’t be as immutable as she thought may have shaken that somewhat, and now the “Joyce only isn’t attracted to me because she’s straight” reassurance has been destroyed, damaging it further.
So… now Becky’s not feeling as Becky as she previously had been, she has less of a defence against those suicidal thoughts. She definitely could use some therapy and more Dina to remind her that new Becky is perfectly good and doesn’t need to rely on ossified concepts to justify her continued existence.
That’s almost certainly true – you don’t get into this state without there being SOMETHING going on beneath the surface from the get go. And given what she’s been through with everyone, yeah, there’s a lot of unprocessed trauma boiling beneath the surface there. It was probably going to bubble up sooner or later – but that doesn’t change the fact that the idea of having a fluid sexuality is directly tied to her current emotional vulnerability, and at the very least a contributing factor to why she’s in a slump right now, if not the main reason she isn’t bouncing back from this revelation the way she normally would.
And y’know if they hadn’t got divorced and if mom hadn’t sold the house, I’m absolutely sure they’d still be there and still would think exactly the same thing.
Yes… but I think the implication was also that Becky no longer considered herself a daughter of Hank and, by extension, part of Joyce’s family. Just — bemused and detached from the entire situation, and maybe a little burnt out from the adrenaline dump. Just no more energy or will to continue engaging with the Browns right then.
…I think that makes Joyce sad because Joyce sees it as an implicit rejection of Becky’s familyship with Joyce, as well as a sudden “switch turning off” of Becky’s willingness to engage with Joyce and Dorothy and their new relationship (the “emergency rescue-sister mode” crisis having abruptly passed for Becky.)
(Also, I would guess that Becky might hear Hank’s assessment of Dorothy and her great GPA as “…not the worst option” as an implicit comparison with and rejection of Becky as a possible alternative same-sex romantic prospect for Joyce. Even though Hank didn’t intend his comment that way, I could see Becky wondering, “Is my GPA great? Would Hank see *me* as acceptable girlfriend-to-daughter material? Would Hank have been so accepting if it had been me, and not Dorothy?”)
…Comparing yourself to others can just hurt and hurt and hurt, and the hurt can just keep going on and on…
I mean, there’s also the fact that, while in the midst of “accepting” Joyce, Hank made several homophobic comments, one of them right here in this strip seconds before Becky bails.
If I were Becky, ever everything else aside and entirely lacking any heartbreak, I would absolutely bail on the pizza to not have to put up with Hank’s BS right now.
even if she didn’t tell hank about her feelings still be awkward to have lunch with the dad of the girl you’ve been in love with for a decade i suppose but yeah been a whiloe since she and robin/leslie all ‘hung out’ together (altho she works at glassos still i imagine so maybe hse’ll end up serving him anyways)
For the “why is Joyce sad,” she’s seeing how bummed Becky is and thinks that it’s her fault. Fairly or unfairly, from what she knows about what’s been going on, Becky is depressed because of Joyce and how Becky found out about Joyce being in a gay relationship – which, to be fair, Joyce hasn’t exactly been handling as well as she should have been. But what Joyce doesn’t realize is that this isn’t JUST a result of her handling the coming out poorly, there are other factors that lead to Becky being depressed before all of this going down, factors that have really thrown Becky for a loop.
fuck, dude, accept it or… be wrong, I guess, but is a meal with your kid who literally just came out (and also her best friend who has come to rely on you being an adult slightly better than her parents just ran off on the verge of tears maybe check on her) really the venue for that discussion
whole reasons to go places can be overridden by things that happen at those places – he doesn’t actually need to go all “so you think you’re a filthy COMMIE” with his newly out daughter right there.
he could put that off for a bit and perhaps get to know dorothy a bit better as a person rather than a scary atheist.
I think he’s focused on Becky’s pizza suggestion that it would be a good dad move, and he wants to be a good dad right now even if his beliefs are in conflict with his children.
Parent’s with strong hierarchical world views also often struggle to see being a good parent in ways that doesn’t involve them telling their children what to do.
So his brain might be hitting the my children don’t know what’s good for them heuristic that was helpful when they were small and would not go to bed but is now woefully wrong.
To be fair, hashing things out over a decent meal is genuinely a good idea right now. There’s a lot that they need to go over, and it’ll help get everyone on the same page – especially with how much Jocelyne still needs to go over with him!
When were these magazines published? Apartheid ended before any of the Browns’ kids were born and at the rate time is progressing it’ll have ended before Hank was born too.
the u.s. has also been described as having been or still being an aparthied state tbh she could be talking about books romanticizing segregation or being on some manifest destiny shit
it could also refer to the not-Israel/not-Palestine conflict happening in the comic. Israel is described by anti-zionists as an apartheid state, and evangelical Christians have a vested interest in protecting Israel’s interests and brand image.
Right?
I’ve found that trying to square the politics of this universe with ours makes me miserable, so I guess there was a dumbiverse apartheid somewhere else in floating-fifteen-years-ago. Maybe France.
Given the rest of the Bulmeria/Israel/Palestine thing, I know Jocelyne is parroting a misunderstanding of the region. (The land has Big Problems, but apartheid is just not accurate.)
I just want to believe that Jocelyne is reasonably informed about her protesting, though.
So, France. Screw them, they’ve got funny pants or something.
— I don’t know that. I suspect it.
I don’t need to know for sure, just in case that’s what Jocelyne is doing.
I’m a trans writer, too (nonbinary, but still!), and Jocelyne was important to me. I just want to still like her.
I wish she’d get to come out.
My parents still have big filing-box-thingies of old magazines from the 90s, and my youngest siblings are currently in college, so it doesn’t seem all that implausible to me that the Browns had a similar interest in archiving.
Though yeah, the Doylist explanation is probably the best one. Acceptable Breaks From Contemporaneity and all that.
If the Hank character is about 60, it’ll be a while yet until the sliding timeline will bring him to a post-magazine birth year.
Current Hank would’ve been ~20 in ‘85, ~25 in ‘90. Magazines were still a thing up until the combined impact of the 2008/09 economy and the 2010 introduction of the iPad.
Oh man, that’s a weird realization to have. Hank is now young enough (in terms of birth year, that is) to have been a gamer as a teenager. He would’ve been eleven when the 2600 came out. Wild.
The National Review (mentioned in the alt text) likes to remind its readers every now and then of how much higher the South African GDP was under apartheid and thinks like that.
Hank and Carol are old fogeys and apartheid in South Africa ended when they would have been in their twenties-ish. No reason to think they would not have been able to acquire those magazines at the time of publication.
The magazines could have been lying around for decades before the kids were born; but, AFAIK, there are still people in South Africa (and therefore almost certainly in the target demographic of the National Review in the US as well) who try to excuse apartheid on the grounds that the ANC was a buncha commies.
Aaaaaand that’s why I don’t fully trust Hank. I don’t HATE Hank. I like Hank, or, I like that Hank is visibly making an effort. I do not think Hank is a Bad Guy, a Villain. We’ve seen those, and Hank is something very different: a person growing and changing and trying. Good character.
But little barbs like the “if you CHOOSE to be gay…” and last panel rub me the wrong way [intentionally, no doubt!]. He’ll try, he’ll make exceptions for Becky and Joyce and Dorothy by extension. But he will still passive aggressively reinstill the conservative viewpoints he still holds, the ones that are still harmful to his children. And I get why Jocelyne would decide she isn’t ready to put herself through trying to rehabilitate her dad, even if he might eventually accept her. Or tolerate her because he wants to be a good dad.
It’s been forty whole seconds. Let the man at least order his pizza; life-changing epiphanies usually take at least as long as a large cheese with sausage on the side takes to bake.
Man people give Joyce alot of runway to unlearn her fundy programming. But Hank who has had double or more time in the cult is supposed to just reprogram in a snap and any delay is proof itll never happen.
Readers have already had to deal with X amount of years of Joyce learning and trying so unless Hank turns out to be autistic or gay or trans or whatever else might help them relate to the reader, he’s going to need to speedrun this.
There appears to be a strong generic component to autism, so it wouldn’t surprise me if Hank turned out to be on the spectrum. Given that “Asperger’s Syndrome” didn’t hit the DSM until 1994, he might never have considered autism as potentially applying to him, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t.
Ayup.
Pretty sure my 70 year old parents are both neurodivertent like I am.
My Dad could be the poster child for ADHD, while my mom shows way more classic autism symptoms than I do.
I know, right? Like… give the man some grace, he’s already done more than 99% of all fundies ever will. He broke off with the church, he divorced his wife, he’s even treated the revelation that his daughter is a lesbian with basically a “I’m not in a position to judge”, which for a fundie is like…. dude the man is doing great all things considered.
Honestly the ideal is most of his character development in this area happens offscreen, after we get a strong sign that it’s going to be happening without us needing to witness it, with occasional check-ins to see how it’s going. But, I’ve known a lotta old guys like Hank. The odds that he won’t be making those little pushes in the direction of “normalcy” as he sees it are pretty long
Based on what we’ve seen of Hank in this storyline so far and previous strips where he was pretty quickly accepting of Becky being gay, I suspect he’d probably be fine with Jocelyne if she chooses to tell him that she’s trans. He does have a lot more stuff to learn though.
My dad was instantly supportive of my bisexuality, but unsupportive about my nonbinary identity. The latter reaction really surprised me, because this was the same person who’d successfully argued for gay marriage rights politically, he’s performed gay weddings, and he’d happily told me he hoped I’d bring home “a nice Jewish boy or girl”… but then he had an extended tantrum over being asked not to call me his daughter. I’ve really had to make a fuss on things with him, and he’s never gonna get it right.
People can be inconsistent like that.
This keeps getting explained to you, and you keep pretending you haven’t seen it getting explained to you.
It is not at ALL unlikely that a person can be willing to accept (begrudgingly or enthusiastically) someone being gay, while still not accepting trans people. It happens all the time. There are gay people who are anti-trans bigots. Support for one community is not guaranteed by support for the other community.
There are plenty of reasons to believe he wouldn’t be cool with Jocelyne being a trans woman, people aren’t worried for no reason. Especially people who are worried in-world.
Sometimes people like to toss out that they’re “fine with people being gay” to show how tolerant they are as they go on to talk about how people being transgender is “a bridge too far.” And those can be some of the calmer discussions.
You can repeat an explanation forever, but it doesn’t mean people have to agree with your interpretation. Some of us don’t believe that Hank will stop loving his children if they are trans and will be accepting, even if he has a lot to learn about these topics.
Kyulen isn’t “Not seeing” your explanation, he’s not agreeing with it in regards to Hank.
This isn’t a matter of “interpretation”, it’s a matter of facts. Kyulen keeps directly saying “Hank was okay with Becky being gay, therefore he’ll be fine with his own kids being bi and trans.” Other people keep explaining to him that that’s not how the world works, and he’s either not seeing that or ignoring it.
At no point was I trying to convince Kyulen about my opinion on Hank. I suggest you read more carefully before responding so aggressively, as I will not be fighting against accusations of things I simply didn’t do.
In past comic strips Kyulen has stated “I don’t understand why people doubt that Hank will accept Jocelyne being trans”, inviting people to explain WHY they see it that way.
Bigotry is like lead poisoning; it gets in the bones, in the brain. Church and society pump it in, but getting those levels down takes time. You get it out of your blood and find out it’s in your bones. Single epiphanies are a chelation dose; regular sessions slowly tease it out of your system.
I remember reading THE NEW AMERICAN at my school’s library, not realizing the John Birch Society was a collection of racist crazy people. There’s actually a letter from me in one of their magazines where I pointed out that Pinochet was, yes, a bad person.
There was a 2002 article in the Washington Examiner arguing that the Galactic Empire were actually the good guys…really Palpatine was no worse than Pinochet! That maybe this says bad things about Pinochet apparently did not occur to them.
The Chad Mitchell Trio, a comedy folk group from the 1960s has a song called the John Birch Society, might be fun for a laugh for someone somewhat familiar with the org
On the one hand, Hank doesn’t disown Joyce! Yay! Apparently it is possible to come out of their church without becoming a murderous jerk. Sure wish Toedad had considered that option!
On the other hand, Hank still insists on calling being gay a “choice”, even while standing next to someone who had a shotgun pointed at her face over it. Dude threatened innocent lives over this, including your daughter’s, and you think Becky just ‘chose’ being gay over Joyce’s life?
I think people are getting hung up on his .choice of verbiage. Whether or not someone is gay is not a choice, but actively dating someone in a gay way is a choice. Or at least that’s how that very common idea goes in those in xtian propagandas, their whole love the sinner thing. She’s not choosing to [be gay]. She’s choosing to be [gay with Dorothy]. I don’t even think he’s casting aspersions on the gay part, he’s just using that phrasing without much thought.
Hopefully he continues to improve and becomes a solid ally for our girls.
Actually I think it feels much worse for Hank to say he approves of Dorothy. I think on some level she was hoping for him to say “and why couldn’t you date Becky?” She might be wondering if he would voice the same approval of her, if the situation was different. Becky is still very insecure and has a tendency to take things personally where Joyce is concerned. It probably feels like everyone is one big happy family without needing her for anything.
I get the feeling it’s also hurting her on some level that Joyce isn’t being disowned, not that she would ever want her to be or wouldn’t feel bad about it if she recognized that in herself. But Hank just learning about it without any big fuss means that any part of her that tried to protect herself a little from the pain of what her dad did by thinking “It was the cult that made him like that, any of the adults in it would react the same way; look at how they paid his bail. Hank can treat her okay ’cause she’s not his own kid, but he’d definitely snap just as hard if she were…” can’t cushion her any more because, clearly, nope, being part of the cult might have given him the push to take action the way he did but if he wasn’t that type of awful person at his core it wouldn’t have been enough on its own. (And the hurt wouldn’t stop to think that Becky herself, his still caring about her and finding what Ross did monstrous no matter what his church and then-wife thought, is certainly a good part of the reason Hank’s reaction is so mellow)
Voice of the Martyrs. If you don’t have your own oppression, appropriated is fine! Helping Christians stay aware of the persecution the faithful face in other, browner parts of the world. Not so they can help or anything, just so they can claim to be underdogs.
It sounds to me like Hank still thinks that gay is a sex act, not an identity. Choose to be gay with.
Good luck, Hank, you have some things to unlearn.
Yes, I agree. Orientation is often not recognised as a concept in fundamentalist circles. Sexuality is conceived of as what you *do*.
Some years ago, a friend of mine who’s been in a monogamous marriage with a man for over 20 years felt that she was contributing to bi-erasure by letting it be assumed that she was only attracted to men.
So she posted on Facebook that she was “not straight”.
And you should have seen the response from her elder relatives. She was disrespecting her husband and her marriage, she was doing terrible things to her children, she should be deeply ashamed of herself. It was obvious that they thought she was saying she either intended to have an affair with a woman, or possibly was already doing it.
Eventually her husband got online and said he wished people would stop being angry “for his sake”. His then-girlfriend had already told him she was capable of being attracted to women back before they even got engaged, and he didn’t feel as if he had been at all disrespected or deceived.
He, of course, understood that his wife was saying she might, in another life, have had relationships with women (because my friend had not ever actually had a girlfriend; she was just acknowledging that she had the right attractions to have had one), but that in the life they were both living, she was in a committed relationship with him.
But that wasn’t at all what her horrified relatives thought she meant.
That’s also probably why conservatives sexualize queerness so much, even when it’s kids so young they haven’t yet had a lewd thought in their lives. Their concept of “lesbian,” “bi,” “transgender,” etc is porn genres, not kids having puppy love crushes, or preferring different clothing and social roles.
Unfortunately in the United States, “acceptable political leanings” tends to exclude a lot of political views that are too critical of the wealthy and of capitalism in general. I’m glad Hank has been becoming more accepting of gay people lately, but he still has a lot to learn and a lot of right-wing propaganda to unlearn.
I understand the frustration that people have with Hank still having some residual fundy programming, but give him the chance to grow, and learn. He’s doing his best to figure out his own beliefs, and what the problems are with his beliefs. I’m not saying you have to embrace Hank right away, but don’t rip on him while he’s still learning.
It took a billion years in comic for Joyce to stop saying the EXACT SAME SHIT that Hank is saying (Her talk to Roz about her purity, her own comments about queer people ect). I am not sure why people are just assuming that Hank is going to bust outa his Fundie cocoon into a woke butterfly in the span of like…in comic a few months after a LIFETIME of indoctrination.
Exactly; it’s not like Hank is alone in this change, and the time it takes, since Joyce was also fundie programmed. However she only had 2 decades of fundie nonsense, and Hank has had to deal with 50-60(?) years of the stuff.
Yeah, plus Joyce is in a very change-helping environment, during a period of intense cognitive exploration and growth.
Hank isn’t in a gender studies class, doesn’t adore his lesbian bestie who comes to him for help, he doesn’t have latent bisexual desires (that we know of 😉 ). Hank’s got a lot of good humility on her, but he still has to generate all this change himself. Might take him more than a minute, here.
I’m gonna rip on him while he’s still learning because he’s just a cartoon character and I find it important to discuss the shitty things he’s saying specifically.
It’s actually a really cool dynamic that Willis has set up here if he chooses to explore it. I love the idea of Hank following the same journey his daughter has but having to do it under different circumstances. The same challenges but requiring a different path to get there since he is in a different environment than Joyce. Having Joyce be part of the de-programming process is just beautiful writing in the middle of a lot of chaos right now.
I see ‘consequences (TM)’ right there in panel 4. Just in case anyone who wanted consequences of the negative kind missed it The face of someone who has been consequenced.
As I feel I must reiterate ad naseum, people who wanted consequences wanted consequences for the *cheating*, not consequences for Joyce and Dorothy *being gay*. This is not a consequence of the cheating. Had Dorothy and Joyce been single, free, and clear when they kissed, this exact sequence of events could have played out in exactly the same way.
And really, it looks like even the consequences for being gay are boiling down to “Becky is sad, but will still help Joyce out” and Walky being sad about being dumped.
Hank isn’t being really supportive, but he’s at least tolerating his bi daughter, so that’s another potential consequence defused.
also the choice of partner as well, reminds me of leslie’s dentist date like “my parents wish i had chosen a diff girl” but i would think more ppl would judge her for cheating on joe
People complain about the closet case homophobe stereotype (#notallhomophobes), but it’s a stereotype for a reason. Internalized bigotry is a hell of a drug.
I think (hope?) it’s less “you’re choosing to be gay” and more “you’re choosing to be gay with her” because while being gay isn’t a choice, being gay with someone certainly is 😛
Really loving the duality of the genial benevolence of “offering dad pizza” with the remark about “we had magazines that supported APARTHEID.” Real duality-of-man shit there.
I would guess Jocelyne is in her mid-20s, probably born right around 2000. It isn’t or wasn’t too unusual for people to keep old magazines lying around. My dad had National Geographics going back to before I was born when I was growing up.
Holy fuck Joycedad, you clarify right fucking now that you didn’t mean Becky was the worst possible choice, because you know that’s how she’s taking it.
I’m sure it hasn’t even crossed his mind that Becki has a thing. I’m more concerned about the “choosing” to be gay line. It’s one more thing to have a talk about. Just glad he is taking it in stride even if this particular stone needs a lot of polishing.
This is one of those situations where using Bulmeria as a stand-in for Palestine makes the last panel messy. Both the pro and anti sides of the protests we’ve seen have described the conflict in Bulmeria as being in…well, Bulmeria, which is not how genocide in Palestine is discussed (I’ve yet to see a pro-Palestine protester call it “genocide in Israel” as opposed to “genocide in Palestine”). If Mary’s “Bulmeria has a right to defend itself” sign didn’t exist, we could see Bulmeria as a Palestine stand-in without needing to define who’s conducting the genocide (which would still have its own obvious problems), but as it stands the government of Bulmeria is the perpetrator and an undefined population of Bulmeria is the victim. There’s plenty of examples of real sectarian violence resembling that, but it’s not 1/1 for Israel and occupied Palestine and raises questions that we can sort of infer the answers to, but…I mean look, my thoughts are jumbled but it’s sort of weird and it makes me wish that a fictional country that was fictional even in-universe during It’s Walky and that prior to last book was invoked as a jokey Russia stand-in for the once-DarkPower451 to be Edward Snowdined out of the comic so that the real cooler post-transition Alex could step in without being tied to the prior Dumbiverse Alex’s dickish behavior hadn’t been re-used for something of this gravity! But also I get how a stand-in helps the narrative probably and also the real thing is a daunting topic! I don’t know where I was going with this!!
That’s really the only salvageable aspect, and even then it was accidental. Every time it comes up I remember that we still don’t know the name of the group who is being genocided and it just makes me cringe. Really should have chosen a different topic for the protest.
Yeah it’s really not great. Like, some people say “maybe Willis doesn’t want to make the comic be about complicated and messy geopolitics” to which I say “nobody demanded Willis put these topics in the story.” It’s just not a topic you can really lightly sprinkle into a story very well.
I’m earnestly just kinda waiting for that element of the story to be moved past as I don’t expect a major restructuring to make the story be about confronting these issues in detail to happen (nor do I even really want that within this comic).
I mean, the protest was referencing an actual protest against Palestinian genocide that happened at Indiana University last year, where the rules regarding encampments were changed by the university specifically to thwart it and the cops then immediately sent in. So the in-comic protest always had to be about genocide too. It just would’ve been way less weird if were about Israel and Palestine directly in-comic instead of using Bulmeria as a stand-in. (I guess The Kiss using an actual protest in support of Palestine as a backdrop would’ve been worse, but honestly it wasn’t great for either of our girls to have used a protest against genocide as romantic window-dressing for their affair as it is so the end effect is the same. #DaisyWasRight)
I think it would’ve made more thematic sense for it to be about LGBT+ rights. Last semester in universe involved that bill about housing stuff. The sliding timescale pushed us to where modern protests are about genocide, but strictly speaking it would’ve been better to have it more about what we’d already seen and heard about.
For people like me (and Asma), it hardly just disappears or something the moment the protest in the United States stops being reported by their news mills, a fact which Willis should very much make a point in upcoming storylines!
re: my young cousins, thankfully their mom was able to make it back into the country in one piece and re-unite with her kids, albeit I still worry sick every day that they could very well be sent to their deaths, or worse yet systemically forced to rub shoulders with a death cult in which members make tik-toks of their war crimes
the bible says before you tell someone about the sliver in their eye make sure to remove the plank from your own. I say that there should never be a political discussion about children dying.
If you’re suggesting that Hank is going to suddenly have a heart attack… I mean, that’s certainly possible, but there’s been absolutely zero foreshadowing to that.
And I get that in life we sometimes get no advanced warning, but at least narratively, I think that there would’ve been just a tiny bit of sentimentality there, or seeing Hank as more of a person and less of a potential antagonist. It just really comes out of left field. And Willis is a good writer and good planner. I don’t see it happening.
Now, the moment that Joyce and Joss wave at their dad driving off, after having an honest conversation with them and Hank telling them that no matter what, he’s going to do what he can to be there for them and accept them, and Jocelyne tells Joyce that she’s really happy that they have at least one parent who loves them… THAT is the moment we all have to be worried.
But then we would miss out on the possibility of seeing him in Leslie’s Gender Studies class – which would both be very much in character for where is arc is heading right now, and absolutely hilarious to think about.
Bro honestly IMO Hank is killing it as a fundie-in-rehab dad, even with the uh ”acceptable political leanings” lol. They’ve all gone through so much in six months, he’s already renounced his old church, accepted two lesbian relationships with atheists, broken the marriage he believes so strongly in because his kids come first, and continues to offer these traumatised children pizza. I hope he keeps it going.
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“acceptable” to who????
it’s this weird fill-in-the-blanks dealio where the “correct” answer just so happens to always favor the white establishment (-_-)
Evangelical theologically seems to have a knack for always claiming that Jesus Christ would support whatever most directly aligns with political views its followers already had. Even when it seems to directly contradict what he said in the gospels!
Just impressively convenient
Modern Evangelical theology seems to be conspicuously based on Southern Antebellum Christianity that weaponized cherry picking and slant to their interpretation of the religion.
For example, they argued slavery would help convert slaves to Christianity and when many slaves did….just kept them as slaves. They also removed the book of Exodus from sermons to slaves for…some reason.
Friend of mine said once “much of the American South can be summed up by the idea that Jesus was a NASCAR driver” and it has never left my brain
But… NASCAR drivers always turn left!
Good one. 🙂
To be fair, the brand of Christianity I was raised in does the exact same thing, just in reverse. We happily cherry pick hippie Jesus, and ignore the rest.
Or aren’t taught the least savoury parts, which comes with its own problems. But also hilarity at times when we discover, hmm, other interpretations. Like the Prosperity Gospel, which is really funny, in a dark, twisted way.
A lot of it has to do with the covenants. The rainbow is one of them. Jesus’ teachings and death issupposed to be one of these big “contracts with God”. A covenant replaces all the stuff that was rules before it. So while the older stuff is there for historical relevance, all the hippy Jesus stuff is supposed to be the important thing.
But since what’s in that new Covenant (other than faith in Jesus being needed to be right with God) is never explicitly spelled out, you still have to cherry pick which parts don’t count anymore. Much of the New Testament involves various authors arguing about that.
I’ve recently had an American Christian try to convince me that Jesus was all about leaving a big inheritance to your children, and besides that totally apolitical.
They don’t understant the core tenets of their own proclaimed religion.
One should imagine that the “needles eye” and “give all you possesions to the poor” passages where sufficiently clear on the topic.
But then, so should “thou shalt not kill” or “live by the sword, die by the sword”, yet most of that crowd are steadfast militarists and 2nd Amd. fans.
To bend over backwards… it doesn’t say anything as general as “kill” in the original. It’s much more like “murder”.
But “those who live by the sword shall die by the sword” is in there.
I wasnt aware of that.
Thanks for pointing out a bad argument.
I only ever read translations in english, polish and german which all use the generalized wording I cited.
But shifts in meaning due to translations are another can of worms for a supposedly infallible text.
I can’t tell you how many sermons, or Bible studies, or whatever, I have sat through and they go over the rich man being told to sell all his possessions, and the very, very first thing that the pastor says is something along the lines of, “… but Jesus isn’t actually saying in this that he WANTS you to go and do what he told the rich man to do… this is just to demonstrate that we can’t be perfect and why we need Christ!”
You know. As he speaks to an audience of older white boomers, the men who have cushy well-paying jobs, and the women who live as homemakers for children long gone, as they complain to their friends that no one wants to work anymore.
They can list off how many verses that say something along the lines of “sExUaL iMmOrAlItY!” but face them with something that looks directly at them, they’ve got a convenient out.
Even when I was a believer, I was frustrated at the knots some of my fellow Christians would tie themselves into trying to explain how the “eye of a needle” wasn’t literal (while everything else is.) They love the (completely unsubstantiated) myth that there was some gate in the city called “Eye of the Needle” and so it’s not impossible for rich people to go to heaven, they just have to “unburden themselves” like camels do to go through that gate! In other words, so long as they’re going to church and say the right words, they can be as rich as they want, and somehow aren’t contradicting anything Jesus said. They’re like that with anything that actually confronts them with something uncomfortable.
Quote: “You should not be afraid of someone who has a library and reads many books; you should fear someone who has only one book; and he considers it sacred, but he has never read it.” Couldn’t find a source for this, but feels at least relevant-adjacent.
See, Jesus waaaaanted us to interpret his words in the ways that would be most likely to get his preachers a yacht…
Hey, if he wanted his words to be clear he woulda wrote something down.
Their supporters OR their own pockebook.
I still marvel at how that scene managed to make follwing a guy, who supposedly raged against the moral toxicity of personal wealth, morph to a point where preachers flex personalized Caddillacs and buy private jetplanes.
That’s a big reason why I say God is mostly just a rhetorical device.
God believes whatever you believe, but by attributing your opinions to a higher entity, you imbue it with more authority than if you were just some guy with an opinion, and it becomes harder to argue against.
It can be tempting to try and beat them at their own game. To go searching for a bible verse that contradicts them as if it’s some sort of counter-spell to their bullshit.
But none of that really matters. What matters is they know a guy whose word is indisputable and who backs up everything they say, but you haven’t met him.
Frankly, this is a version of religion that makes it meaningless. If you can’t self-examine because of it then what’s the point?
I think the point of it is pretty clear.
“I think gay people are gross and icky” isn’t a campaign platform.
“God is sending gay people to hell” is something people rally around and turn into policy.
The rhetorical benefits of attributing your own thoughts to a hypothetical entity who is above reproach are enormous. But ultimately, that’s all it’s ever been.
People who like gay people will claim that god likes gay people, and people who don’t like gay people will claim that god feels the same. It’s like that with any issue under the sun. As soon as you state your opinion that way, people can’t argue with you, they have to argue with god.
I’ve never met somebody who feels that god disagrees with them.
Having the ultimate appeal to authority is pretty neat.
“My opinion is backed by the all-knowing expert on everything.” basically shuts down any possibility for discourse.
My understanding of American Christianity is that it’s based on just three core precepts:
1. Be loud and performative. You’re not a real Christian if you don’t make a show out of it! Pray constantly, go to Church every day, say rote phrases like “Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior” and it doesn’t matter how you actually feel, what you actually think!
2. Be hateful. God put you on this Earth so that you could make your neighbors’ lives miserable. This is especially true of the poor, the downtrodden, the homeless, the minorities and the outcasts; those are the ones that you need to attack at every opportunity.
3. Be whiny. Never forget that you are the real victim here, the only real victim.
Acceptable to the very wealthy, usually.
A colleague told me “we shouldn’t judge slavery by today’s standards because it was just accepted back then” and besides in the future people would judge us because of abortion.
People in the future can do whatever they need to do, but I know for damn sure that slavery was not accepted by its victims. Or by a lot of other people either. Unless nothing can be wrong if it is accepted by those in power.
I mean not to mention that there was very much an abolitionist movement in the US before we were even a country. So that’s super not an excuse.
I always wonder why they identify with the slave-holders (“Our heritage!”) and not the white abolitionists.
Which one sounds more fun?
Having other people serve you hand and foot and generate free income for you?
Or fighting an opressive majority opinion enforced by the aristocracy, where nearly everybody you meet considers you a dangerous radical who ruins society?
I´ve been an enviromentalist activist most of my life, and I can tell you: my depressions are not genetic.
Even within the abolitionist movement there were a lot who wouldn’t want to be judged by today’s standards. End slavery? Yes! Live with free black people as equals? Not so common. Lots of alternatives were suggested, including shipping them all back to Africa. Along with the pretty common assumption that slave owners would need to be paid compensation for the loss of their property.
I think there’s also a bit of humility involved in not judging history by today’s standards: The vast majority of us, if raised in past times, wouldn’t have still somehow had the moral standards of today. Whether on slavery or LGBTQ rights or something else, we’re all products of our own culture, not unique souls who would have had the same beliefs where ever and when ever we were raised.
100% chance I’d have been on whatever side I was raised on as a child, though I’ve changed in adulthood now. So probably then.
I have no problem judging the past by our best current ethical understanding now. Of course things will evolve in the future, and they’ll judge us. It’s not like I can put them in jail – I just think we should knock them off the pedestal we built for them when our understanding was, um, more basic.
And also, while this wouldn’t apply so much to American racial slavery, farther back in the past, while the enslaved still certainly didn’t want to be slaves, that doesn’t mean they were opposed on principle, just that they didn’t want to be on the wrong side of the deal.
There are, I believe, cases of people enslaved as war captives who were rescued or otherwise freed and then took slaves of their own.
It was just treated as the way things were.
By the time of American slavery, there were definitely movements opposing the institution more broadly.
We’re still allowed to say it was wrong. It just means… stop worshipping those people, our founders.
I’m sure Robin or Leslie would love to get pizza with you Becky.
Hopefully they’re not in jail!
I’m sure if they did, Robin could pay for bail for the two of them. Those election campaign funds are just sitting there, after all.
Hopefully Leslie’s not in jail. Hopefully Robin got her opportunity to shout “Don’t you know who I am?!” while being shoved into the back of a police car.
Have we really gotten any moments of Leslie being a mother figure to Becky since the timeskip? I feel like we must have, but it is a dynamic that felt more prevalent before the timeskip.
We had this one, where Becky regrets teaching Dina how to meme.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/02-the-one-where-jocelyne-returns/permanence/
Oh good, here’s hoping we get some follow-up on that soon enough. It’s a character dynamic I’m really fond of.
Aww, Becky! Where’s Dina when you need her?
Right behind the door, usually.
i’m sure she’ll be around. unless tehre’s some last min parental visit by /her/ parents or so but i’m sure she would take the time to shoot becky a text
Maybe teleportation is a hereditary trait.
Watching Amber/Amazi-Girl
Coming up in a couple days, according to the Tumblr previews.
Dina where are you please go find Becky!!!
Quick, we can summon her by citing inaccurate dinosaur facts! Pterodactyls are my favourite dinosaur!
Mine’s Dimetrodons!
….. you monster.
Velociraptors are big enough that a human could ride them!
I like the sabertooth tiger.
I love the Long Necks! How they eat tree stars and go to the Great Valley!
Childhood flashback omg
I like crocodiles because they’re still alive, unlike any other dinosaur.
(is it possible to stack too many inaccuracies? I don’t want to summon her in a stress-induced coma)
HOMPK!!!
Anand, Becky remembered she’s sad again
Sadly, Becky doesn’t care for Hank save as being Joyce’s father.
Hank is important to her:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/04-it-all-returns/deserves/
This is extremely not true. He’s like family to her, and I’m pretty sure it was stated that he helped her set up a bank account, get her own phone, sign up for financial aid, and get enrolled at the school. I think she just can’t stand to be around Joyce and Dorothy being all cutesy right now.
I have had no judgment one way or the other towards Joyce but if she doesn’t immediately run after her BEST FRIEND WHO IS HURTING SO BAD,she will have lost me.
I think that would be the most self-serving and inconsiderate thing for Joyce to do. There is quite literally nothing at all that she can do or say to make this situation less of a knife in the heart for Becky RIGHT NOW. Sure, she’ll come to terms with it… but not because it’d be nice for others if she could hurry it up and do so right now so they don’t have to feel anything but the thrill of their new love situation.
Given why she’s hurting, I don’t know if Joyce is the person to talk to her right now.
As a card-carrying White Person, any other white folks over 30 should definitely, definitely go back and read newspapers and magazines about politics from when they were kids. It’s Fun*!
* Fun is the thing where you hurt a lot and then get really angry, right?
The main newspaper and magazines stuff I remember seeing when I was a kid as far as politics went was about 9/11. Definitely, uh… definitely lots of ‘LOOK AT ALL THIS DEATH!! WE GOTTA GO KILL THOSE BAD GUYS!! YEEHAW AMERICA OOOOH SAAAY CAN YOU SEEEEE”.
yeah that’s about when I became politically aware and also decided that america must some kind of dystopia
I remember trying to explain to some forum goers from different parts of the country that in my part of America, the Confederacy did nothing wrongTM. No, it was the barbarian Northern murderers who stopped the South that would have eventually made slavery illegal on their own peacefully. Oh and they were treated well.
And no, we’re not racist!
Sometimes looking back at your own self only a few years ago and can do nothing but cringe and shudder, right?
G´damn I used to be sexist af at twenty, all the while considering myself a feminist ally. Thank godess my first SO was a strong gal who patiently beat me onto a better path.
I’ve already seen it a few times as an adult, but a couple of months back I
unpacked my adjectivesrewatched my Schoolhouse Rock DVDs. The ones about American history are just chock full of Bicentennial-era propaganda for the kiddies – the “Great American Melting Pot” (assimilation), “Elbow Room” (lebensraum“manifest destiny”), “No More Kings” and so on. Hooo boy.Sadly the “no more kings” and “we the people” and the one about separation of powers are kinda forgotten. Those were helpful.
I find most things are the thing where I hurt a lot and then get really angry.
Oh Hot-wired slinky Christ, I used to read Enid Blyton books. Even the Welsh were caricatures.
I haven’t read an Enid Blyton book since I was a child. Sounds like I should maintain that record.
All I remember about Enid Blyton books is the Famous Five ruled, the Secret Seven were a bunch of dweebs and every small English town had approximately eight hundred counterfeiters in it
and SECRET TUNNELS!
Anyone who hasn’t watched Five Go Mad in Dorset needs to fix that right now.
A teen-times friend had his childhood collection of Blytonbooks carefully arranged so that you saw-
The Famous Five go camping
The Famous Five have plenty of fun
The Famous Five get into trouble
The Secret Seven
Pretty sure my mom has OCD (I do too) and it manifests as having to check every news station and multiple newspapers. She’s stopped getting the paper, but has a complex ritual for which stations to watch from 6am until 10pm and cross reference their takes. For some reason I have vivid memories of reading the newspaper headlines about Bill Clinton’s impeachment on my dad’s kitchen table.
I was raging at the Channel One “News” propaganda shown in schools even while I was a student during during the Shrub administration.
OMG, I remember that too! They played it at my high school! Never had anyone else reference it!
The apartheid reference is weird though. We don’t know exactly how old Jocelyne is, but it can’t be old enough for that, unless pro-apartheid magazines were a thing for well over a decade after it ended. Hank would have been in his mid-twenties then.
She didn’t specify they were pro-Aparthied then; they could just be magazines that were pro-Apartheid back when it was still A Thing.
Some people just keep old stuff. I grew up reading a lot of Reader’s Digest that was 20–30 years old at the time.
She’s too young to have any knowledge whatsoever about even the concept of apartheid?
she may mean apartheid in palestine? like, they’re evangelical, i imagine there was a *lot* of pro-israel propaganda in their house
Me, a chilean, going back to read the newspapers of my childhood:
“DICTATORSHIP IS OVER EVERYTHING IS AWESOME
WE HAVE ONLY HAD 2 7.0 EARTHQUAKES THIS DECADE!!!”
Jocelyne’s tough and well prepared to talk circles around Hank. She’s going to be fine.
I think she’ll actually make him rethink a lot of his politics.
I don’t know. If Jocelyn is anything like those students Charlie Kirk routinely defeated then Hank will hold his own.
Charlie Kirk been real quiet lately.
You could say he’s… gone underground.
Seriously! UPVOTES!
I’ll get the Oujia board-
why doesn’t this comment system have upvotes, dangit!
Kirk tended to declare victory when he lost.
Like when he was trounced by that children’s show host about Jesus’ message and just said leviticus was the best law.
“Debating” Kirk was a lot like playing chess with a pigeon. He’d knock over all the pieces, shit on the board, and then strut around declaring himself the winner.
I feel like this is really disrespectful dude.
I mean Pidgeons were used for decades to carry messages, do other tasks and are often very beloved pets!
Not cool to compare him to a pigeon !
**torn between my desire to pile on the pigeon support and to make a cheeky “Don’t let the Pigeon Drive the Bus” reference**
Thanks everyone for the information about the late Charle Kirk. I found it too exhausting to sift through his social media litter box. It’s good to know we still have people who can critically think. We might just survive the next 3 years.
And apparently quite tasty
i love pigeons <3
Why y’all dissin’ Star Trek like that? Kirk was much more an intellectual than he let on.
*various people whisper in steamweed’s ears and/or hit steamweed with sticks
OH. Well never mind. Yeah, _that_ Kirk was a struttin’ idiot.
Kirk never once argued in good faith and constantly ignored crushing defeats to declare himself the victor. What on Earth are you talking about?
Dude was a clip farming jackass at BEST.
Different Kirk.
Wasn’t replying to Steamweed; you can tell because our comments are on the same level of indentation.
Oops.
Sorry – blame my aging eyes.
Right there with you, no worries =)
I like that Becky’s ultimate reaction to Joyce coming out seems to be nuanced. She clearly doesn’t hate Joyce and Dorothy, obviously. She also isn’t 100% fine with this, since she’d had feelings for so long and comforted herself with ‘well Joyce is straight so it’s fine’. I think, ultimately, all she needs is some space, some time with Dina, other friends, and she’ll be okay.
…Granted, being roomies with Dorothy means space is gonna be a bit difficult, but she’s not being unreasonable or hateful. She’s just hurt and pretty deep in the feels.
I wager there’s a bit of guilt and self-loathing in there too. “I have Dina, the most wonderful person in the world, I love her to death, WHY DOES THIS STILL HURT SO MUCH?!” type stuff.
I can see that too. Reminds me of when she felt inadequate as a girlfriend, bought Dina the giant velociraptor plush and threw her a big party then felt even shittier about it after.
Also, that arch-enemy thing she started with Dorothy is biting her in the ass, because viewed through that lens, her enemy won and she lost. Which of course she knows rationally doesn’t make sense, but don’t underestimate the power of a lie you’ve acted on enough times to make it seem true even to you.
The joking aspect of that rivalry I think was almost definitely a coping mechanism for the very real jealousy and insecurity Dorothy made her feel and, well, those feelings are coming home to roost now.
Honestly? I’m waiting for Dina to actually lose patience and directly confront her. Because that’s kind of what Becky needs right now.
Confront her on what?
Dina has been suspecting Becky may be gay.
Becky can’t be gay, she’s just very enthusiastic about stage plays.
Uh, something something hairdresser, idk.
“You still have feelings for Joyce?”
“I love you, but yeah, I knew her for a long time and it hurts finding out I wasn’t rejected for the reason I thought.”
“Oh, I understand.”
…That’s really more of a comfortation though.
+1 For “comfortation”
Yeah, seriously.
Girl needs some serious therapy, stat. She’s still reeling from the idea that her sexuality may be fluid, which triggered some suicidal ideation in her – and which has had her emotionally vulnerable all week (in universe). If she weren’t in such a vulnerable spot, she wouldn’t have been so shaken by the revelation of Joyce and Dorothy being a thing (it would still have stung, but she’d have been able to process it in a more healthy way – one that would include taking Hank up on the dad pizza and bringing Dina along for it). At least she’s going the “quietly self destruct” route rather than the “take everyone down with me!” route in this depressive spiral – but it’s still a REALLY unhealthy place to be.
Possibly pedantic note: maybe I’m misreading, but “triggered some suicidal ideation” seems like everything was fine and then the idea of fluid sexuality alone prompted suicidal thoughts that hadn’t existed previously.
To me, it seems more likely that such thoughts were already there but crushed beneath Becky’s exuberance and strong self-image. The idea that her “I’m a lesbian! High Five!” approach to life mightn’t be as immutable as she thought may have shaken that somewhat, and now the “Joyce only isn’t attracted to me because she’s straight” reassurance has been destroyed, damaging it further.
So… now Becky’s not feeling as Becky as she previously had been, she has less of a defence against those suicidal thoughts. She definitely could use some therapy and more Dina to remind her that new Becky is perfectly good and doesn’t need to rely on ossified concepts to justify her continued existence.
That’s almost certainly true – you don’t get into this state without there being SOMETHING going on beneath the surface from the get go. And given what she’s been through with everyone, yeah, there’s a lot of unprocessed trauma boiling beneath the surface there. It was probably going to bubble up sooner or later – but that doesn’t change the fact that the idea of having a fluid sexuality is directly tied to her current emotional vulnerability, and at the very least a contributing factor to why she’s in a slump right now, if not the main reason she isn’t bouncing back from this revelation the way she normally would.
Remember that the “exuberance and strong self-image” are just Becky’s defense mechanism. No one likes a Debbie Downer, after all.
And y’know if they hadn’t got divorced and if mom hadn’t sold the house, I’m absolutely sure they’d still be there and still would think exactly the same thing.
on a brighter note!!!!
It’s now October, FINALLY time for SPOOKY SEASON! ✌🏽😈
*plays “BeetleJuice Theme” on hacked muzak*
It’s just a jump to the left…
And then a step to the riiiiiiiiight~
Time to wear out the best Oingo Boingo album.
I’m overly tired. What does Becky mean by a two moms pizza and why is Joyce sad? Sorry I’ve not gotten any sleep lol
I think she’s referring to Leslie and Robin :p
That makes sense. Thanks!
Yes… but I think the implication was also that Becky no longer considered herself a daughter of Hank and, by extension, part of Joyce’s family. Just — bemused and detached from the entire situation, and maybe a little burnt out from the adrenaline dump. Just no more energy or will to continue engaging with the Browns right then.
…I think that makes Joyce sad because Joyce sees it as an implicit rejection of Becky’s familyship with Joyce, as well as a sudden “switch turning off” of Becky’s willingness to engage with Joyce and Dorothy and their new relationship (the “emergency rescue-sister mode” crisis having abruptly passed for Becky.)
(Also, I would guess that Becky might hear Hank’s assessment of Dorothy and her great GPA as “…not the worst option” as an implicit comparison with and rejection of Becky as a possible alternative same-sex romantic prospect for Joyce. Even though Hank didn’t intend his comment that way, I could see Becky wondering, “Is my GPA great? Would Hank see *me* as acceptable girlfriend-to-daughter material? Would Hank have been so accepting if it had been me, and not Dorothy?”)
…Comparing yourself to others can just hurt and hurt and hurt, and the hurt can just keep going on and on…
I mean, there’s also the fact that, while in the midst of “accepting” Joyce, Hank made several homophobic comments, one of them right here in this strip seconds before Becky bails.
If I were Becky, ever everything else aside and entirely lacking any heartbreak, I would absolutely bail on the pizza to not have to put up with Hank’s BS right now.
Joyce is sad because Becky is sad and Joyce knows that it wasn’t _really_ her fault, but she was the catalyst for it.
Soylent Green and Orange toppings.
even if she didn’t tell hank about her feelings still be awkward to have lunch with the dad of the girl you’ve been in love with for a decade i suppose but yeah been a whiloe since she and robin/leslie all ‘hung out’ together (altho she works at glassos still i imagine so maybe hse’ll end up serving him anyways)
For the “why is Joyce sad,” she’s seeing how bummed Becky is and thinks that it’s her fault. Fairly or unfairly, from what she knows about what’s been going on, Becky is depressed because of Joyce and how Becky found out about Joyce being in a gay relationship – which, to be fair, Joyce hasn’t exactly been handling as well as she should have been. But what Joyce doesn’t realize is that this isn’t JUST a result of her handling the coming out poorly, there are other factors that lead to Becky being depressed before all of this going down, factors that have really thrown Becky for a loop.
Pizza! But also, poor Becky. :/ She’s trying so hard to be supportive, but she’s also clearly hurt.
What will make Becky smile again?
seeing messy hair Dina again
may not make her smile but will sure make her horny and thus serve as a distraction XD
I’m hoping Becky will realize she’s got a kind, smart, fun, and pretty girlfriend already. Who needs Joyce when you’ve got Dina?
I know Becky will agree, but getting over someone you’ve been romantically interested in for a long time isn’t easy.
fuck, dude, accept it or… be wrong, I guess, but is a meal with your kid who literally just came out (and also her best friend who has come to rely on you being an adult slightly better than her parents just ran off on the verge of tears maybe check on her) really the venue for that discussion
It was the whole reason he drove down here in the first place.
whole reasons to go places can be overridden by things that happen at those places – he doesn’t actually need to go all “so you think you’re a filthy COMMIE” with his newly out daughter right there.
he could put that off for a bit and perhaps get to know dorothy a bit better as a person rather than a scary atheist.
I think he’s focused on Becky’s pizza suggestion that it would be a good dad move, and he wants to be a good dad right now even if his beliefs are in conflict with his children.
Parent’s with strong hierarchical world views also often struggle to see being a good parent in ways that doesn’t involve them telling their children what to do.
So his brain might be hitting the my children don’t know what’s good for them heuristic that was helpful when they were small and would not go to bed but is now woefully wrong.
To be fair, hashing things out over a decent meal is genuinely a good idea right now. There’s a lot that they need to go over, and it’ll help get everyone on the same page – especially with how much Jocelyne still needs to go over with him!
Give ‘im hell, Joss. We are going to EXAMINE some shit in this pizza parlour
Seems the initial need to tell Hank is less urgent now. But still there; I’m hoping Jocelyne does tell Hank. Let’s open Hank’s eyes a bit, shall we?
we really are heading towards hank making out with golasso arent we
When were these magazines published? Apartheid ended before any of the Browns’ kids were born and at the rate time is progressing it’ll have ended before Hank was born too.
Could be recently. There are people today with platforms who lament the fact that Apartheid ended, and not all of them are in South Africa…
the u.s. has also been described as having been or still being an aparthied state tbh she could be talking about books romanticizing segregation or being on some manifest destiny shit
it could also refer to the not-Israel/not-Palestine conflict happening in the comic. Israel is described by anti-zionists as an apartheid state, and evangelical Christians have a vested interest in protecting Israel’s interests and brand image.
Right?
I’ve found that trying to square the politics of this universe with ours makes me miserable, so I guess there was a dumbiverse apartheid somewhere else in floating-fifteen-years-ago. Maybe France.
Given the rest of the Bulmeria/Israel/Palestine thing, I know Jocelyne is parroting a misunderstanding of the region. (The land has Big Problems, but apartheid is just not accurate.)
I just want to believe that Jocelyne is reasonably informed about her protesting, though.
So, France. Screw them, they’ve got funny pants or something.
— I don’t know that. I suspect it.
I don’t need to know for sure, just in case that’s what Jocelyne is doing.
I’m a trans writer, too (nonbinary, but still!), and Jocelyne was important to me. I just want to still like her.
I wish she’d get to come out.
The status quo in occupied Palestine is so blatantly, observably apartheid that it’s frankly insulting to suggest otherwise. Ridiculous.
It’s the Evangelical movement. I’d put money on them STILL Publishing stuff Lamenting the end of Apartheid.
I remember glancing at a magazine that talked about how Nelson Mandela was an evil communist who hated Christianity.
All magazines only mention events which have occurred within the last four hours.
Some magazines that loved apartheid have continued publishing without ever admitting they were wrong about it, too.
My parents still have big filing-box-thingies of old magazines from the 90s, and my youngest siblings are currently in college, so it doesn’t seem all that implausible to me that the Browns had a similar interest in archiving.
Though yeah, the Doylist explanation is probably the best one. Acceptable Breaks From Contemporaneity and all that.
I love that the 90’s is old stuff…
It’s entirely possible that the Browns inherited their grandparents home and like mine had a bunch of old magazines still around it.
MORE LIKELY, this is just Willis essentially using Jocelyne as his avatar like he uses Joyce and it’s a reference to our creator’s childhood.
The sliding time scale means that soon Hank will never have even bought a magazine in his life (except maybe gaming magazines as a teen)
If the Hank character is about 60, it’ll be a while yet until the sliding timeline will bring him to a post-magazine birth year.
Current Hank would’ve been ~20 in ‘85, ~25 in ‘90. Magazines were still a thing up until the combined impact of the 2008/09 economy and the 2010 introduction of the iPad.
Oh man, that’s a weird realization to have. Hank is now young enough (in terms of birth year, that is) to have been a gamer as a teenager. He would’ve been eleven when the 2600 came out. Wild.
The National Review (mentioned in the alt text) likes to remind its readers every now and then of how much higher the South African GDP was under apartheid and thinks like that.
Hank and Carol are old fogeys and apartheid in South Africa ended when they would have been in their twenties-ish. No reason to think they would not have been able to acquire those magazines at the time of publication.
The magazines could have been lying around for decades before the kids were born; but, AFAIK, there are still people in South Africa (and therefore almost certainly in the target demographic of the National Review in the US as well) who try to excuse apartheid on the grounds that the ANC was a buncha commies.
When apartheid ended was not a coincidence.
on the plus side, this is still better than carol’s hypothetical reaction (maybe she’ll be in denial like when joyce came out as atheist)
I really need coffee. I misread Carol as Carrot and I wanted to know who Carrot is.
He definitely isn’t king of anything. People would know if he was. Stands to reason.
Aaaaaand that’s why I don’t fully trust Hank. I don’t HATE Hank. I like Hank, or, I like that Hank is visibly making an effort. I do not think Hank is a Bad Guy, a Villain. We’ve seen those, and Hank is something very different: a person growing and changing and trying. Good character.
But little barbs like the “if you CHOOSE to be gay…” and last panel rub me the wrong way [intentionally, no doubt!]. He’ll try, he’ll make exceptions for Becky and Joyce and Dorothy by extension. But he will still passive aggressively reinstill the conservative viewpoints he still holds, the ones that are still harmful to his children. And I get why Jocelyne would decide she isn’t ready to put herself through trying to rehabilitate her dad, even if he might eventually accept her. Or tolerate her because he wants to be a good dad.
Oh yeah, absolutely. He’s trying to smooth off his edges, “talk of pleasanter things”, but he’s not at self-reexamination stage.
It’s been forty whole seconds. Let the man at least order his pizza; life-changing epiphanies usually take at least as long as a large cheese with sausage on the side takes to bake.
This comic needs a counter at th me bottom that tells you exactly how many minutes it’s been since whatever people in comic are reacting to.
Just “Reminder: Hank learnt Joyce was queer three minutes ago” scrolling along the bottom like a news ticker.
it’s a view I’ve seen a few people express this last couple IRL-months, but damn I really like how you summed it up. Ticker/counter ftw.
Man people give Joyce alot of runway to unlearn her fundy programming. But Hank who has had double or more time in the cult is supposed to just reprogram in a snap and any delay is proof itll never happen.
To be fair, his response was to divorce his wife, so we all expected more.
Readers have already had to deal with X amount of years of Joyce learning and trying so unless Hank turns out to be autistic or gay or trans or whatever else might help them relate to the reader, he’s going to need to speedrun this.
There appears to be a strong generic component to autism, so it wouldn’t surprise me if Hank turned out to be on the spectrum. Given that “Asperger’s Syndrome” didn’t hit the DSM until 1994, he might never have considered autism as potentially applying to him, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t.
Ayup.
Pretty sure my 70 year old parents are both neurodivertent like I am.
My Dad could be the poster child for ADHD, while my mom shows way more classic autism symptoms than I do.
I know, right? Like… give the man some grace, he’s already done more than 99% of all fundies ever will. He broke off with the church, he divorced his wife, he’s even treated the revelation that his daughter is a lesbian with basically a “I’m not in a position to judge”, which for a fundie is like…. dude the man is doing great all things considered.
Honestly the ideal is most of his character development in this area happens offscreen, after we get a strong sign that it’s going to be happening without us needing to witness it, with occasional check-ins to see how it’s going. But, I’ve known a lotta old guys like Hank. The odds that he won’t be making those little pushes in the direction of “normalcy” as he sees it are pretty long
Not zero, though
Hey, what’d I do??
Based on what we’ve seen of Hank in this storyline so far and previous strips where he was pretty quickly accepting of Becky being gay, I suspect he’d probably be fine with Jocelyne if she chooses to tell him that she’s trans. He does have a lot more stuff to learn though.
My dad was instantly supportive of my bisexuality, but unsupportive about my nonbinary identity. The latter reaction really surprised me, because this was the same person who’d successfully argued for gay marriage rights politically, he’s performed gay weddings, and he’d happily told me he hoped I’d bring home “a nice Jewish boy or girl”… but then he had an extended tantrum over being asked not to call me his daughter. I’ve really had to make a fuss on things with him, and he’s never gonna get it right.
People can be inconsistent like that.
This keeps getting explained to you, and you keep pretending you haven’t seen it getting explained to you.
It is not at ALL unlikely that a person can be willing to accept (begrudgingly or enthusiastically) someone being gay, while still not accepting trans people. It happens all the time. There are gay people who are anti-trans bigots. Support for one community is not guaranteed by support for the other community.
There are plenty of reasons to believe he wouldn’t be cool with Jocelyne being a trans woman, people aren’t worried for no reason. Especially people who are worried in-world.
Sometimes people like to toss out that they’re “fine with people being gay” to show how tolerant they are as they go on to talk about how people being transgender is “a bridge too far.” And those can be some of the calmer discussions.
Yeah, exactly this.
You can repeat an explanation forever, but it doesn’t mean people have to agree with your interpretation. Some of us don’t believe that Hank will stop loving his children if they are trans and will be accepting, even if he has a lot to learn about these topics.
Kyulen isn’t “Not seeing” your explanation, he’s not agreeing with it in regards to Hank.
Then why doesn’t he say so?
Probably he only comes here once a day, so he never sees replies, and nothing means anything.
This isn’t a matter of “interpretation”, it’s a matter of facts. Kyulen keeps directly saying “Hank was okay with Becky being gay, therefore he’ll be fine with his own kids being bi and trans.” Other people keep explaining to him that that’s not how the world works, and he’s either not seeing that or ignoring it.
At no point was I trying to convince Kyulen about my opinion on Hank. I suggest you read more carefully before responding so aggressively, as I will not be fighting against accusations of things I simply didn’t do.
Have a day <3
In past comic strips Kyulen has stated “I don’t understand why people doubt that Hank will accept Jocelyne being trans”, inviting people to explain WHY they see it that way.
don’t expect him to imrpove rapidly over night, even becky said some vaguely biphobic when she and jen first met
Bigotry is like lead poisoning; it gets in the bones, in the brain. Church and society pump it in, but getting those levels down takes time. You get it out of your blood and find out it’s in your bones. Single epiphanies are a chelation dose; regular sessions slowly tease it out of your system.
Oh Becky 🙁
“Acceptable politics”
“Choose”
You were doing so well, Hank. Not the best, but well.
Carol really did set the bar that low 👀
I mean, not really.
It’s like I’ve been saying all along.
“Look, I don’t care who you date or how you live, but no son of mine is-“
“Hey… Dad… psspsspss…”
“Oh, sorry. No DAUGHTER of mine is going to be a… a socialist!”
*ominous thunder and pipe organ*
I remember reading THE NEW AMERICAN at my school’s library, not realizing the John Birch Society was a collection of racist crazy people. There’s actually a letter from me in one of their magazines where I pointed out that Pinochet was, yes, a bad person.
So, yes, Hank has a LOT of deprogramming left to do.
“DID YOU SAY LEFT!?”
These Formers are Trans????????
Robots in DISGUISE?????
There was a 2002 article in the Washington Examiner arguing that the Galactic Empire were actually the good guys…really Palpatine was no worse than Pinochet! That maybe this says bad things about Pinochet apparently did not occur to them.
Given the editorship of the Washington Examiner, this is not terribly surprising.
The Chad Mitchell Trio, a comedy folk group from the 1960s has a song called the John Birch Society, might be fun for a laugh for someone somewhat familiar with the org
Here to save our country from a communistic plot!
It’s time to (eat) C-C-C-Curry
“If nobody’s in danger of gettin’ disowned today, then I’m gonna be headin’ out.”
“Wait Becky, come back! I’ll disown you!”
“Too late, I’m a gets disowned by two moms kinda gal”
“If nobody’s getting disowned today, I’m gonna disown you.”
“You can’t disown me! I disown you!”
G-d, I feel so bad for Becky.
On the one hand, Hank doesn’t disown Joyce! Yay! Apparently it is possible to come out of their church without becoming a murderous jerk. Sure wish Toedad had considered that option!
On the other hand, Hank still insists on calling being gay a “choice”, even while standing next to someone who had a shotgun pointed at her face over it. Dude threatened innocent lives over this, including your daughter’s, and you think Becky just ‘chose’ being gay over Joyce’s life?
Yeah and that was just a few months ago in-world. Super feels bad
I think people are getting hung up on his .choice of verbiage. Whether or not someone is gay is not a choice, but actively dating someone in a gay way is a choice. Or at least that’s how that very common idea goes in those in xtian propagandas, their whole love the sinner thing. She’s not choosing to [be gay]. She’s choosing to be [gay with Dorothy]. I don’t even think he’s casting aspersions on the gay part, he’s just using that phrasing without much thought.
Hopefully he continues to improve and becomes a solid ally for our girls.
Actually I think it feels much worse for Hank to say he approves of Dorothy. I think on some level she was hoping for him to say “and why couldn’t you date Becky?” She might be wondering if he would voice the same approval of her, if the situation was different. Becky is still very insecure and has a tendency to take things personally where Joyce is concerned. It probably feels like everyone is one big happy family without needing her for anything.
I get the feeling it’s also hurting her on some level that Joyce isn’t being disowned, not that she would ever want her to be or wouldn’t feel bad about it if she recognized that in herself. But Hank just learning about it without any big fuss means that any part of her that tried to protect herself a little from the pain of what her dad did by thinking “It was the cult that made him like that, any of the adults in it would react the same way; look at how they paid his bail. Hank can treat her okay ’cause she’s not his own kid, but he’d definitely snap just as hard if she were…” can’t cushion her any more because, clearly, nope, being part of the cult might have given him the push to take action the way he did but if he wasn’t that type of awful person at his core it wouldn’t have been enough on its own. (And the hurt wouldn’t stop to think that Becky herself, his still caring about her and finding what Ross did monstrous no matter what his church and then-wife thought, is certainly a good part of the reason Hank’s reaction is so mellow)
Ross had a rifle, not a shotgun
“I have a full list right here, if you want to see. I never forgot how many did. It was honestly really fucked up.”
two-moms pizza, is it ?
Leslie and Robin as someone already pointed out.
Voice of the Martyrs. If you don’t have your own oppression, appropriated is fine! Helping Christians stay aware of the persecution the faithful face in other, browner parts of the world. Not so they can help or anything, just so they can claim to be underdogs.
It sounds to me like Hank still thinks that gay is a sex act, not an identity. Choose to be gay with.
Good luck, Hank, you have some things to unlearn.
We done knew that already.
Just divorcing his wife didn’t undo his entire life
Although Joyce really is only being gay with Dorothy…outside the context of that relationship she’s bi.
Yes, I agree. Orientation is often not recognised as a concept in fundamentalist circles. Sexuality is conceived of as what you *do*.
Some years ago, a friend of mine who’s been in a monogamous marriage with a man for over 20 years felt that she was contributing to bi-erasure by letting it be assumed that she was only attracted to men.
So she posted on Facebook that she was “not straight”.
And you should have seen the response from her elder relatives. She was disrespecting her husband and her marriage, she was doing terrible things to her children, she should be deeply ashamed of herself. It was obvious that they thought she was saying she either intended to have an affair with a woman, or possibly was already doing it.
Eventually her husband got online and said he wished people would stop being angry “for his sake”. His then-girlfriend had already told him she was capable of being attracted to women back before they even got engaged, and he didn’t feel as if he had been at all disrespected or deceived.
He, of course, understood that his wife was saying she might, in another life, have had relationships with women (because my friend had not ever actually had a girlfriend; she was just acknowledging that she had the right attractions to have had one), but that in the life they were both living, she was in a committed relationship with him.
But that wasn’t at all what her horrified relatives thought she meant.
That’s also probably why conservatives sexualize queerness so much, even when it’s kids so young they haven’t yet had a lewd thought in their lives. Their concept of “lesbian,” “bi,” “transgender,” etc is porn genres, not kids having puppy love crushes, or preferring different clothing and social roles.
This is a really interesting perspective to hear about, thank you!
Unfortunately in the United States, “acceptable political leanings” tends to exclude a lot of political views that are too critical of the wealthy and of capitalism in general. I’m glad Hank has been becoming more accepting of gay people lately, but he still has a lot to learn and a lot of right-wing propaganda to unlearn.
you can say that again (-_-)
We need to tie Hank down and force him to listen to Woodie Guthrie and Johnny Cash until his mind breaks.
I understand the frustration that people have with Hank still having some residual fundy programming, but give him the chance to grow, and learn. He’s doing his best to figure out his own beliefs, and what the problems are with his beliefs. I’m not saying you have to embrace Hank right away, but don’t rip on him while he’s still learning.
It took a billion years in comic for Joyce to stop saying the EXACT SAME SHIT that Hank is saying (Her talk to Roz about her purity, her own comments about queer people ect). I am not sure why people are just assuming that Hank is going to bust outa his Fundie cocoon into a woke butterfly in the span of like…in comic a few months after a LIFETIME of indoctrination.
Exactly; it’s not like Hank is alone in this change, and the time it takes, since Joyce was also fundie programmed. However she only had 2 decades of fundie nonsense, and Hank has had to deal with 50-60(?) years of the stuff.
Yeah, plus Joyce is in a very change-helping environment, during a period of intense cognitive exploration and growth.
Hank isn’t in a gender studies class, doesn’t adore his lesbian bestie who comes to him for help, he doesn’t have latent bisexual desires (that we know of 😉 ). Hank’s got a lot of good humility on her, but he still has to generate all this change himself. Might take him more than a minute, here.
I’m gonna rip on him while he’s still learning because he’s just a cartoon character and I find it important to discuss the shitty things he’s saying specifically.
It’s actually a really cool dynamic that Willis has set up here if he chooses to explore it. I love the idea of Hank following the same journey his daughter has but having to do it under different circumstances. The same challenges but requiring a different path to get there since he is in a different environment than Joyce. Having Joyce be part of the de-programming process is just beautiful writing in the middle of a lot of chaos right now.
Poor Becky. There beats a noble, wounded heart.
I see ‘consequences (TM)’ right there in panel 4. Just in case anyone who wanted consequences of the negative kind missed it The face of someone who has been consequenced.
As I feel I must reiterate ad naseum, people who wanted consequences wanted consequences for the *cheating*, not consequences for Joyce and Dorothy *being gay*. This is not a consequence of the cheating. Had Dorothy and Joyce been single, free, and clear when they kissed, this exact sequence of events could have played out in exactly the same way.
I’ve just about given up trying to explain -_-
Are Walky and Joe being sad not meaningful enough consequences?
Yeah, pretty much.
And really, it looks like even the consequences for being gay are boiling down to “Becky is sad, but will still help Joyce out” and Walky being sad about being dumped.
Hank isn’t being really supportive, but he’s at least tolerating his bi daughter, so that’s another potential consequence defused.
Choosing to be gay…totally how that works.
Just like choosing crime.
As per the famous exhortation, “Be gay; do crimes.”
also the choice of partner as well, reminds me of leslie’s dentist date like “my parents wish i had chosen a diff girl” but i would think more ppl would judge her for cheating on joe
I don’t think the people who talk about choosing to be gay would cop to choosing to be straight, themselves.
People complain about the closet case homophobe stereotype (#notallhomophobes), but it’s a stereotype for a reason. Internalized bigotry is a hell of a drug.
Yeah, that right there is my favourite rebuttal to the people who go “Being gay/lesbian is a choice!”
“So, when did you decide to be straight?”
They usually go “That’s different!” Well, is it a choice or not? 😛
I think (hope?) it’s less “you’re choosing to be gay” and more “you’re choosing to be gay with her” because while being gay isn’t a choice, being gay with someone certainly is 😛
Really loving the duality of the genial benevolence of “offering dad pizza” with the remark about “we had magazines that supported APARTHEID.” Real duality-of-man shit there.
I mean it’s a fine punch line but i half expected an alt strip to just end with her casually being “It’s jocelyne now”
…this is autobiographical too, right?
who would Hank consider as the “worst option”, and “great”…
how’s her GPA now?
gee, who bought all those subscriptions of national review then
if they’re not national geographic
It’s just terrible, she’s in danger of being ejected for non-performance:3.7.
How did this end upon a different comment than I clicked?? I meant to reply to a comment asking about Dorothy’s GPA.
It’s probably not a 4.0, but I think Dorothy can still manage a 3.5.
The sliding timeline won’t be kind to this punchline.
Can we please get Becky some ice cream
Don’t trust dad pizza. Hank probably has bad toppings preferences.
They go to Galasso’s and Ken is like “oh good lord not you guys again”
C-curry 👉🏻👈🏻 UwU
Wait was that a moment of Joyce realizing how much wreckage this will all entail in panel four?
How old is Joshua anyway? Apartheid ended in South Africa in May 1990.
Was their household prone to keeping old magazines around for a while?
Jocelyn. We are not in the room with Hank, we do not need to deadname her here.
Jocelyne.
Not a matter of how old Jocelyne is; it’s a matter of how old Hank is. Or maybe his wife. Someone’s been collecting those issues since the ’90s.
I would guess Jocelyne is in her mid-20s, probably born right around 2000. It isn’t or wasn’t too unusual for people to keep old magazines lying around. My dad had National Geographics going back to before I was born when I was growing up.
Holy fuck Joycedad, you clarify right fucking now that you didn’t mean Becky was the worst possible choice, because you know that’s how she’s taking it.
I’m sure it hasn’t even crossed his mind that Becki has a thing. I’m more concerned about the “choosing” to be gay line. It’s one more thing to have a talk about. Just glad he is taking it in stride even if this particular stone needs a lot of polishing.
This is one of those situations where using Bulmeria as a stand-in for Palestine makes the last panel messy. Both the pro and anti sides of the protests we’ve seen have described the conflict in Bulmeria as being in…well, Bulmeria, which is not how genocide in Palestine is discussed (I’ve yet to see a pro-Palestine protester call it “genocide in Israel” as opposed to “genocide in Palestine”). If Mary’s “Bulmeria has a right to defend itself” sign didn’t exist, we could see Bulmeria as a Palestine stand-in without needing to define who’s conducting the genocide (which would still have its own obvious problems), but as it stands the government of Bulmeria is the perpetrator and an undefined population of Bulmeria is the victim. There’s plenty of examples of real sectarian violence resembling that, but it’s not 1/1 for Israel and occupied Palestine and raises questions that we can sort of infer the answers to, but…I mean look, my thoughts are jumbled but it’s sort of weird and it makes me wish that a fictional country that was fictional even in-universe during It’s Walky and that prior to last book was invoked as a jokey Russia stand-in for the once-DarkPower451 to be Edward Snowdined out of the comic so that the real cooler post-transition Alex could step in without being tied to the prior Dumbiverse Alex’s dickish behavior hadn’t been re-used for something of this gravity! But also I get how a stand-in helps the narrative probably and also the real thing is a daunting topic! I don’t know where I was going with this!!
The Bulmerian issue continues to thorn this strip. It’s just not a good idea! Shouldn’t have been a part of the story in the first place.
It really hasn’t added anything other than Willis realizing he hasn’t been doing Muslim representation very well
That’s really the only salvageable aspect, and even then it was accidental. Every time it comes up I remember that we still don’t know the name of the group who is being genocided and it just makes me cringe. Really should have chosen a different topic for the protest.
Yeah it’s really not great. Like, some people say “maybe Willis doesn’t want to make the comic be about complicated and messy geopolitics” to which I say “nobody demanded Willis put these topics in the story.” It’s just not a topic you can really lightly sprinkle into a story very well.
I’m earnestly just kinda waiting for that element of the story to be moved past as I don’t expect a major restructuring to make the story be about confronting these issues in detail to happen (nor do I even really want that within this comic).
I mean, the protest was referencing an actual protest against Palestinian genocide that happened at Indiana University last year, where the rules regarding encampments were changed by the university specifically to thwart it and the cops then immediately sent in. So the in-comic protest always had to be about genocide too. It just would’ve been way less weird if were about Israel and Palestine directly in-comic instead of using Bulmeria as a stand-in. (I guess The Kiss using an actual protest in support of Palestine as a backdrop would’ve been worse, but honestly it wasn’t great for either of our girls to have used a protest against genocide as romantic window-dressing for their affair as it is so the end effect is the same. #DaisyWasRight)
I disagree with the opinion that it “had to” mirror the real protest overtly but its done now
I think it would’ve made more thematic sense for it to be about LGBT+ rights. Last semester in universe involved that bill about housing stuff. The sliding timescale pushed us to where modern protests are about genocide, but strictly speaking it would’ve been better to have it more about what we’d already seen and heard about.
I still think we can do the issue justice tho?
For people like me (and Asma), it hardly just disappears or something the moment the protest in the United States stops being reported by their news mills, a fact which Willis should very much make a point in upcoming storylines!
re: my young cousins, thankfully their mom was able to make it back into the country in one piece and re-unite with her kids, albeit I still worry sick every day that they could very well be sent to their deaths, or worse yet systemically forced to rub shoulders with a death cult in which members make tik-toks of their war crimes
*HE can do the issue justice tho
Poor Becky 🙁
My mom still gets the National Review🙃
the bible says before you tell someone about the sliver in their eye make sure to remove the plank from your own. I say that there should never be a political discussion about children dying.
Becky is too cute and good for this world. 🥺
This arc has honestly vastly increased my esteem for Becky. She’s been a lot more relatable since this storyline started for me.
Jocelyne is about to have the same conversation I’ve been having with my own father for years
The sad part is that the conversation between Jocelyne and Hank may very well be cut short by… cholesterol 👀
I have no reason to doubt that Willis will once more pour his heart into the pages mirroring his own experiences (no pun intended)
If you’re suggesting that Hank is going to suddenly have a heart attack… I mean, that’s certainly possible, but there’s been absolutely zero foreshadowing to that.
And I get that in life we sometimes get no advanced warning, but at least narratively, I think that there would’ve been just a tiny bit of sentimentality there, or seeing Hank as more of a person and less of a potential antagonist. It just really comes out of left field. And Willis is a good writer and good planner. I don’t see it happening.
Now, the moment that Joyce and Joss wave at their dad driving off, after having an honest conversation with them and Hank telling them that no matter what, he’s going to do what he can to be there for them and accept them, and Jocelyne tells Joyce that she’s really happy that they have at least one parent who loves them… THAT is the moment we all have to be worried.
But then we would miss out on the possibility of seeing him in Leslie’s Gender Studies class – which would both be very much in character for where is arc is heading right now, and absolutely hilarious to think about.
What is this, Community?
Go to Becky, Joyyyyce! Comfort her 😭
I left like this exact comment in the patreon comments except mine said kiss
I’m getting whiplash from how quickly my expectations for this arc are changing.
Bro honestly IMO Hank is killing it as a fundie-in-rehab dad, even with the uh ”acceptable political leanings” lol. They’ve all gone through so much in six months, he’s already renounced his old church, accepted two lesbian relationships with atheists, broken the marriage he believes so strongly in because his kids come first, and continues to offer these traumatised children pizza. I hope he keeps it going.