Today! I’m driving to Bethesda, Maryland, for this weekend’s Small Press Expo 2025! See me at table F2 on Saturday and Sunday!
and don’t forget, plush dina’s still up for preorder, through this weekend
and tomorrow’s strip? early? on patreon???? CRAZY!!! what other dumb shit is joyce gonna say
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real sad Becky wants what she knows she can’t have :(
she should forget life, and play Dumbing of Horse Race Test
Well now I’M certainly playing Dumbing of Horse Race Test.
Dots and Joe were out of the starting area first but Danny ultimately managed to win.
Leslie almost had it, but Carla came skating through and knocked her down to steal the drink.
So after some initial rambling, Ruth and Roz wound up snogging against the left wall, immobile, for about half the race, until suddenly Becky came in with a pile-driver to break it up. Then Jocelyn came in the far side for the win.
Also, noticed thatt not all collisions are the same. If one is moving horizontally, for instance, and another token comes at it from the top (and possibly the bottom), the interceptor is knocked back, but the original token keeps on its trajectory unmodified.
This is like watching the DVD screensaver but x6, I love it
True story, I was teaching a kids art class a few months ago and one class I notice all the kids are staring up at the wall, I was like what’s going on guys? And they pointed at the TV, someone had left it turned on and they were all watching the blue DVD rectangle bounce around the screen. I joined them, it was enthralling
I ran it three times, and I’m pretty sure it runs the same way every time.
I’m always waiting for it to bounce precisely into a corner – I’ve only seen it happen once, it was very satisfying.
Dina had a huge early lead but Dina beat her.
I mean Lucy beat her.
watching dorothy repeatedly bounce off the underside of that final T-section is perhaps the most frustrated I’ve ever been with a game I wasn’t directly controlling
they… they never leave the start… ~<3
I played the race. When I saw my lineup I wanted blowjob cat to win. Blowjob cat won. I win.
Booster’s name is misspelled as “Booser” when they win.
Please do not fix this.
This is funny.
It would make them so mad. Hmm.
still time for a threesome/;polycule but i assume joyce sees her more of a sister
Thankyou for a frustrating few minutes
An excellent pinball-esque show and a few minutes watching that! (Looked like Leslie was gonna win, but Becky totes won, of course)
Decisive win for Asma! Amber and Fuckface got distracted and wandered off.
Is this that Umamusume game I’ve been hearing about?
666+ comments already! >:D
And right as I’m about to see the premiere of the new Demon Slayer movie! Perfect! (^-^)
Very nice. One thing I would add is a pinball sound whenever Dorothy and Joyce bump off each other.
Girls. Now is not the time to be cute and romantic.
They’ve never before felt this exact portion in love!
Which is part of the problem, lmao
To be so in love that one loses all sense of tact and proppotionality… I don’t miss college.
Lets be real, if they didn’t care about being romantic at a literal protest, I doubt they would care now to invoke some self awareness and tact. Cute sentiments between them, wrong time/place.
Well, they weren’t exactly in any frame of mind to self-assess very well.
Becky missed the bus, but she should be happy she got the better ride later with Dina
Not helping, Joyce! Honest, but not helping!
Foreshadowing: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/01-move-in-day/forget/
Best I can figure, this is the first actual moment Joyce actually saw Dorothy, and knew she was there: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/01-move-in-day/pizza/
And be sure to read the alt-text there.
Wait, when did Willis start adding alt-text to the early strips? This changes everything! To the archives!
According to the WaybackMachine, the new alt-text was added sometime in December 2024, though I couldn’t narrow it down to a specific day…
Are… are we sure those were the original alt-texts?
There were no original alt texts until Valentine’s 2013. Willis has occasionally gone back and added it to older strips, but nothing older than that had any when it was posted.
Sometimes (I don’t have five-sigma evidence on this, of course) I think Willis is retroactively changing the alt-texts on occasions.
Yeah… not to say Joyce is lying, but I don’t think this strip even cracks the top fifty in the list of foreshadowing. Apart from the alt-text (which does seen to have been added after the fact, though when is unclear) there’s not really anything there to indicate future romance.
I would actually argue that while that strip is the first chronologically,
this strip is more significant: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/02-uphill-from-here/dexter/
While in the first strip Dotty was just a random peep, the second strip is where they are formally introduced.
… has that always been the alt text there?
Going forward from there, the evidence of Joyce’s true sexual orientation becomes more and more obvious…
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/02-uphill-from-here/coolest/
I would have bet the wealth of Croesus against ‘she taught me how to masturbate’ getting a dead silent reaction from Becky.
Information received in the middle of a BSoD error, might not have fully registered yet.
Too much info coming in; denial of service result.
They’re gish gallopping their confessions so Becky doesn’t know which one to focus on.
I don’t think it’s anything so intentional as that. They’re just considering a lot of this stuff explicitly for the first time and it’s just sort of falling out. I do think Becky’s overwhelmed and she has every reason to be. And that it will take her a moment to sort out everything. But I don’t think they’re intentionally using the gish gallop. They’re not changing the subject or trying to confuse Becky. They’re just realizing how deep and long their relationship has been.
But also, at least for Joyce in her last panel retroactively romanticizing it. And in the process making everything worse for Becky.
They’re not even making it clear that most of even the recent parts were while they were still deep in denial
I don’t deny that it is tactless and horrible for Becky. There has to be a bunch of very complicated feelings she’s having about Joyce, about Dina. I don’t think Joyce or Dorothy has had the time to be that deeply introspective yet. They’re still caught up in the new excitement. And plenty of people did things that hurt other people in college and regret it later. Like I’m not excusing how much Becky is hurt by this, but their lact of tact here is very human in my opinion and not a sign of anything malicious. Just sad.
Becky: clearly hurt
Joyce and Dorothy: bragging about it
Right like have a LITTLE tact?
Tact? These two?
To be fair, I think bragging isn’t quite right; they’re being extremely selfish, caught up in New Relationship Energy and bliss, but good GOD is it cruel to be so utterly absorbed in their happiness and each other that they’re fully oblivious to Becky’s anguish.
Fully oblivious despite how much they were just dreading talking to Becky because they knew she wouldn’t take it well
I don’t want to invite the wrath of the sickos but this is an insane lack of tact. Even beyond the “horny college freshman” threshold. This is straight up rubbing it in. Even at my most uncharitable reads of these two over the course of this storyline I wouldn’t have expected them to be this shitty to Becky’s face.
The most generous interpretation is that they’re just utterly oblivious idiots.
What? Teenagers being inconsiderate, tactless self absorbed lil idiots?!
Nonsense! This is “Always makes the right decisions” of age!
“It’s not called Smarting of Age” is the laziest defense of a character you can put up. No one is saying we expect the characters to make the perfect decision every time. But that also means BECAUASE the characters aren’t perfect we can point out when a character is being shitty and not like a character when they are being shitty. It’s really not that hard to understand if you try.
Huh? I’m not defending anything, I just think it’s funny if anyone expected this to be anything more than the trainwreck it is currently since this is obviously a group of youngsters who have no idea what the hell they are doing and haven’t mastered tact yet.
Not sure why you are looking for something to argue with in my post but you do you.
You’ve never asked an autistic person a question, have you? The answer is going to include all available information, possible caveats, and often absolutely no tact – if you didn’t want to know, why would you ask?
I’m gonna be real honest with you Jon, you’re showing a real weird trend regarding your thoughts towards autistic people and I’m gonna ask you kindly to maybe stop or something because you’re coming off real weird.
That’s actually kind of funny, Doopy. As an autistic man, I’m used to “coming off real weird” to people. Also to answering questions with more information than the questioner really desired, sometimes presented out of sequence as I remember things that seem relevant.
Clarifying – funny as in amusing, not funny as in strange.
I feel a bit more at ease now with the context that the things you’ve said are self-deprecating in nature rather than you just having an issue with autistic people. In that case, I’ll back off.
@Doopyboop To me they aren’t reading as self depreciating, they’re describing the symptoms of autism (keeping in mind that Joyce at least is cannonically probably autistic but not yet diagnosed) that other posters are using as evidence that Joyce and Dorothy are terrible people.
Jon is not the person I’m giving the side eye here even before he was shamed into self disclosing his autism for reminding posters that autistic characters are likely to exhibit signs of autism.
My intention was no to shame him into doing that however I am not going to apologize for being sus of what he was saying. I’m not exactly neurotypical myself and many of my loved ones are autistic. If someone told my best friend that she is ‘medically incapable of reading the room’ I’d tell them to back the fuck off.
Nobody even knows what a sicko or paladin is anymore.
Paladins look through windows and sickos add charisma bonus to saves, right?
I thought sickos got aura effects. Wait, wrong edition and/or game.
They actually get a free horse in the new edition.
I assume this is the model for the dream horse.
Yeah…
I don’t think this is oblivious, I think this is honest. It’s better to give Becky the information that will hurt her than to downplay it. This has the tone of confession, which isn’t quite the right flavour of Christian for their upbringing but is very different to bragging
Started out like a confession, I agree. They sort of got caught up in their feelings for each other by the end, though.
They’ve been tactless since this started, and I know it’s because it’s a new relationship and they’ve realized that they might’ve liked each other long before that- so I don’t fault them for that much. But I really wish they’d think before they speak to people who are kind of close to the situation, like Joe and Walky. Becky is a complicated one, since she doesn’t have a day in their relationship, but she’s close to both of them, has liked Joyce in the past, has been jealous of Dorothy’s closeness to Joyce (I assume it’s because she feels like she’s being pushed out as Joyce’s best friend, and she keeps being the last to hear about Joyce news. Add on the whole sexuality is fluid crisis she’s having, it’s just not a great time for her.
After so many strips where the punchline is their scared of Becky’s reaction this is a strange choice.
A lot of things have felt like srange choices
Bit of a let down, I was kinda hoping it would be funny but I will take intense dramatics too!
Anything but miquetoast angst and we are good!
Its hysterical if you only look at the Dorothy Joyce strips just imagine walky on the background. ( Or Walky and Joyce’s mother)
Brutal at the Becky strips.
I thought Joyce and Dorothy were better about considering the feelings of others, but this storyline really has shown them being pretty callous about other peoples’ feelings.
This storyline has made me honestly really not like Joyce at all anymore. Not Dorothy though. She has actually consistently tried to do the right thing, with Joyce tempting her fragile willpower every time. At least Dorothy showed genuine regret about hurting Walky. Joyce has just been so utterly selfish and awful and thoughtless toward everybody other than Dorothy
sure does suck when the gay girls are gay for each other, amirite?
Becky and Dina are gay for each other and didn’t 1) cheat on their partners 2) lie to everyone 3) be insanely disrespectful to their friends to get there
It’s almost like being gay (or for this matter bi) doesn’t absolve you from being a shitty person!
Where does the lie to everyone come from?
I think it comes from comic time. While it was less than 12 hours between their first kiss and them telling Joe/Walky in comic, it was months of real life time. Some people don’t seem to realize this, so they interpret the months it took to resolve as long term deception, even though Joyce and Dorothy haven’t been remotely deceptive during this. The worst you can say is that they procrastinated telling their BFs until the next morning.
Here’s the problem. Becky has expressed her insecurities about the Dorothy situation before. But Joyce told her that wasn’t the case. “How long” was asked in part because of that. And yeah, a half-day is a pretty fair answer. Sometimes you don’t realize something and just realizing it now even if others realized it sooner is a fair cop. But they kept moving backwards. “Taught me how to masturbate” followed by “the first moment I saw you”. Now it’s been deceptive for a long damn time. Maybe not as much as it looks like to Becky in her head right now, but holy shit was that the most horrible way to say they were hiding things.
It is not remotely fair to call something “deceptive” just because you interpret it differently after fully figuring out your orientation.
When you are gay or bi and don’t instantly share your first homophile thoughts with everyone, that’s “lying to everyone”
Every second you don’t come out so you can be oppressed faster is lying.
/S
( Not even shading cmasta but these are irl homophobic tropes )
Also, when you fall in love with someone new, it’s very important that you immediately alert everyone who has ever had a crush on you and help them deal with their feelings before you actually do anything about your new relationship, otherwise you are a horrible person.
This.
Oh of course! It’s totally just that I’m homophobic! Cuz I was so upset about Becky and Dina being gay, and Asher and Ethan being gay, and all the other gayness, and not just Joyce’s specific attitude and actions
I believe the proper response to this ends with the phrase, “… and the horse you rode in on.”
If you want to bash gay bashers, by all means–my understanding is that the Reddit forum for the comic is fairly thick with them. Assuming that people here are of that ilk, on the other hand, is an approach deserving neither respect nor courtesy, since it contains neither in itself.
Joyce has always been absolutely terrible at this, other people just usually intervene faster to point out the hole she’s been digging for herself. Dorothy is better at following rules of politeness, but can also be a bit tactless without meaning to. I suspect her ability to read emotions is fairly limited, so she tends to miss anything unspoken that isn’t covered by rules, and has anxiety about the unknown.
A blind blonde leading the blind blonde situation, if you will. With their powers combined…
(Damn, Joe and his emotional intelligence superpowers would be really good for Walky, wouldn’t he?)
Good point- usually it’s Dorothy guiding her to act better, isn’t it?
Yup. Right now Dorothy is way too close to the situation and is being derelict in her duty.
Honestly she’s also been pretty selfish and thoughtless to Dorothy, too. Like when this strip came out I was like, damn girl that’s cold. https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/03-me-and-who-you-say-i-was-yesterday/being-confused/
The “…bye” on the next page kind of helps her seem like she cares, but it’s still pretty brutal. And then she spent the rest of the night all smiles and giddy, and basically didn’t think about Dorothy until she was in bed about to fuck Joe.
Since then, she’s also been completely unaffected by Dorothy’s panic and almost every time she’s spoken she’s just said something flirtatious, barely paying attention to what Dorothy’s actually saying.
Gosh, tirade of blame. My reading is that Dorothy and Joyce are confessing. Not boasting. A list of sins. We are sorry Becky, we did this, oh and maybe this, and what about that, was that also a sin?
I mean, no, it probably doesn’t exactly help. But they think the owe Becky apologies and are just trying to get all their ‘sins’ absolved.
Poor Becky is da Pope of Fools (The fools being Dorothy And Joyce)
Yeah, like Becky has asked, and they want to be honest with her, but its hard to define a start point when their escalation has been so atypical
I definitely think that going “and there was the first time I ever saw you” is not something that should be included in this honesty, especially with them smiling so happily at each other. It started off as a confession but swerved into romance, right before Becky. Like wow, it’s atypical level of utter lack of care towards one of Joyce’s most important people…whose reaction they were dreading. I expected and desired drama but this is really bafflingly cruel of them both?
Aww, but it’s only fun if we can shame the evil gay girls. /s
If it wasn’t ending with Joyce turning towards Dorothy with an adoring gaze, like Becky wasn’t even here, that might work as an interpretation. If this is confession, it’s kind of like finishing up by telling the priest, “High five!”
It was the Dexter and Monkey Master folder, wasn’t it.
Cartoons ARE turning kids gay!
Ever since we saw Bugs Bunny in full operatic drag in the ’80s. (that was when gay was invented, of course)
Remember when Elmer Fudd got angry and summoned a storm with his spear and magic helmet? Well, storms have rain, and rain brings rainbows. The connection is obvious.
Just FTR, “What’s Opera, Doc?” is from 1957…
Honestly not sure where I expect this to go.
I feel genuinely bad for Becky. I’ve been there.
Yep. “Why was she good enough but I wasn’t?” Feel that
Amber felt that way too.
“You could fake it with her, but not with me?”
Oh shit, for Ethan, right
Yes. And that’s why I hate this narrative.we already did it.
It perpetuated a very, biphobia narrative for years on the audience . Then queerbaiting, ship teasing.
Danny is bi in name only so he won’t hurt Amber. Can’t rub her face in gay love (which she would have loved)
In name only? Wasn’t he totally gonna bang Ethan but then nuked their friendship by talking shit about Mike when he was in a coma? He’s not not bi just cuz he’s monogamous and dating Sal
“bi in name only”. You do know that’s straight up biphobia, right?
Bi people do not need to be in a same-gender relationship to be bi. Danny’s attraction to Ethan was a matter of serious consideration and it probably would have progressed farther if Danny had not undertaken a precision strike on his relationship with Ethan. He still likes dudes, he just likes Sal more right now.
Probably cuz Joyce has always seen Becky as family, and incest is taboo. That’s why a friend and I didn’t work. We had attraction but then when it came to actually a relationship we felt like we were trying to date a sibling and that was weird and thus ended asap.
My wife had something similar back in college. Guy was really into her, he was a great guy (when we got married, he was scrambling for a wedding gift and gave us a Monsters of Eberron manual for 2nd Edition D&D!), but when she tried to date him, it felt like dating her brother.
Nice gift!
That’s what I’ve always thought. They’ve been too close too long to be lovers.
Not too long, but too early.
Agree. If sal has kissed her shed probably be gay 10 years ago.
( Dammit I sound like a Mike comic)
The Becky kiss was prob too consanguinious
Oh 100%. She’s like her sister. She grew up with her. I get it, but I also get Becky’s feelings
I didn’t expect to feel bad for Becky, but I do. Along with Joe, Walky, and a lot of other characters who’ve been hurt by the shitty behavior of Joyce and Dorothy lately.
Same, in an earlier comment I had wished they would show Walky a fraction of the consideration they give Becky…turns they are giving about equal consideration. I guess they only ever cared about getting caught.
Ah. You wished upon a monkey paw. Condolences.
I think it’s because she’s not yelling Joyce. She’s not coming at her like she is entitled to have had Joyce date her. She is just deeply sad that she wasn’t good enough but Dorothy is, and that’s super relatable
yeah. it sucks. it especially sucks when you know that like, “oh shit, this person I love is experiencing a huge amount of joy and all I can think about is my own pain.”
The other side without romantic feelings is Joyce was hiding this big discovery from her best friend. That also stings.
Hiding it from her while getting it on front page of the paper.
Joyce how could you do those terrible opposite things.
Yes, hiding it for a whole 18 hours while trying to deal with this major life upheaval. What a horrible, shameful excuse for a human being.
Panel 1 sure, maybe even panel 3, but then 4-5 happen and it really shows that yeah, Joyce was hiding something from Becky, something Becky specifically asked her about.
If she was hiding it from Becky, she was also hiding it from herself, which I don’t think we can blame her for. Besides, how long did Becky know she was gay before she told Joyce? Is she awful for hiding that?
I think it’s different to come out to someone who isn’t openly queer and hasn’t knowingly interacted with queer people, vs someone who is and has. The reasons for not coming out are different, and the reasons are why it stings when you learn you haven’t been confided in.
First, it’s bullshit it was actually as far back as when they first met. Joyce is just playing her internal romance narrative here.
Second, it’s absolutely true she was in complete denial for the vast majority of that, up until at least the last couple days, but that’s not what they’re telling Becky. They’re telling Becky they’ve known for weeks if not months. They don’t intend to be saying that, but that’s what their words are implying.
Is there some conversation I’ve missed where Becky actually asks “Joyce, are you a lesbian and in love with Dorothy?” and Joyce said “No, I’m straight and not in love with Dorothy.”
Because some are acting as if this happened, and I do not remember a conversation remotely like this. Joyce did not say she was straight when Becky first came out to her. When Becky first kissed Joyce, Joyce says “Becky…I don’t – I’m not…” which is hardly anything concrete. Then in response to Becky’s “You have to feel the same way” Joyce responds “I – I really don’t.” All she says is that she doesn’t romantically love Becky; her orientation isn’t mentioned.
From here she goes on to call Becky her best friend, call her family, and likens making out with Becky to incest. She even responds to “Why are you hiding your girlcrush?” with “She’s an atheist.” (Notably, this is also where Becky even says “Totes rejected. I swear I’ll back off,” and then proceeds to act possessive of Joyce and aggressive towards Dorothy for months, so if you’re looking for someone to blame for dishonesty…)
Becky then casually calls Joyce straight when summarizing the situation to Sarah, but this is her assumption, not anything Joyce said (Joyce doesn’t correct her, but still, that’s not what Joyce said).
So it wasn’t when Becky first came out. When else did they talk about this? I remember Joyce saying something like “I love you, but don’t make out with me” to explain her platonic/familial affection, but I can’t find it. I don’t think Joyce said she was straight then, either.
Even if she had, can people please be allowed to learn about themselves and rethink their past actions and experiences without be accused of being retroactively deceptive?
I’m not sure where this animosity is coming from as I’m not calling any character anything negative.
My point is that it stings that this is how Becky finds out the big discovery with her best friend. Similar to how Joyce found out that Becky was intimate with Dina.
That was how I read “For how long” from yesterday.
I feel bad for Becky, but I also feel bad for Joyce, as hers is the situation I’ve personally been in.
When you have to tell someone you don’t love them the way they want/need you to it’s awful, and there’s no winning. There’s no “right” thing to say. There’s no avoiding causing pain. It feels like you’re the bad guy through no fault of your own and no amount of work or effort will avoid it or alleviate it until the person with the unrequited feelings processes things. If you say something, it causes them pain. If you keep it to yourself, it causes them pain. If you tell them later, it’s likely pain later (possibly more pain due to the wait).
Joyce is dealing with something that’s more an aftershock of that initial conversation, but it’s still resonating with all the same feelings.
Honestly, it makes me glad that my situation was because I’m aromantic and literally never feel that kind of attraction. I can’t imagine trying to navigate this quagmire, especially because Joyce really does care about Becky (even if she’s messing up here and possibly causing more immediate pain than is necessary).
TMI ladies! You’re just making this worse.
If they were capable of restraint, this mess wouldn’t have gotten to this point in the first place
Because they’d still being in the closet? Or because they would have asked Becky’s permission before getting together?
Your bad faith interpretation of what i said is not my problem.
*At most* i was referring to them reigning in their exaggerated desire to avoid becky whenever possible a little (which has consistently been played for humor.)
I don’t see why that wouldn’t have just caused this same scene to happen sooner.
I mean they wouldn’t be on the front page of the newspaper if they had a little restraint, so Becky could’ve heard it from them directly.
“So, anyway, Joe still wants to date me. Us. Date us. Because, he kind of likes you from way back.”
Not what Joe said. Neither part of that is what Joe said.
Proxiehunter is right, unfortunately, that’s not what Joe said, BUT jeffepp you are so brave for voicing how I genuinely want this poly situation to shake out, I thank you for the manifestation energy my friend! We will make it real!
(Note for commenters who follow this up: you come into my replies to tell me “well I don’t want that!” or “Joyce and Dorothy don’t DESERVE that” or “but the cheeeeeating” or something—imma ignore you, k? K. I just don’t care about any of that.)
Poly is the only way to bridge the vast chasmatic gap between the Slutty Sickos and Relationship Paladins.
I’m definitely hoping for a poly situation out of this, but I don’t think we’re headed anywhere near an actual triad. Just a hinge (or maybe a series of hinges).
There is such a thing as too much honesty Joyce.
In fairness to her Dorothy did get the ball rolling. “Complete candor” indeed.
Sometimes things are Inside Thoughts
Yeah, but when you’re on the spectrum, it isn’t always obvious which Thoughts are Inside Thoughts.
There’s a natural progression in the strip, too. Each comment follows logically from the one before, at least if you read it like they’re forgetting why they’re explaining this and instead are reminiscing over their New Yet Eternal Love.
This is a frequent way I blow up a conversation. Someone asks me a question and it’s obvious to them what information they want but I have no sense of that and just give them all related and connective information. Realization comes later.
Not sure if that explains Dorothy but it’s almost certainly what’s happening with Joyce.
“Inside Thoughts”? What are those? When did all that start??
April.
Panel 5: A+ for sweetness, F- for reading the moment.
Not sure this is having the effect Joyce and Dorothy intended.
Of all the directions for this to take, I was not expecting Becky’s misery to get played for comedy like this, but I approve. Joyce is such an asshole here that she’s finally broken through “annoying” into being really funny. I approve!
I don’t read this as comedy
I dunno, I’m laughing.
I think if it is being played for comedy it is black comedy. I’m laughing, but also it feels really sad and awkward at the same time. Maybe that’s just me, I sometimes laugh inappropriately when things go horribly wrong in an incredibly uncomfortable way, even if I don’t find the situation funny.
For example, a few months ago I was present when my dog ran past my dad in the hallway and accidentally snagged on his catheter bag (he was having problems due to an enlarged prostate that are now thankfully fixed). Anyway, this caused the catheter to get twisted and bunched up inside my father’s … ding dong. He was in terrible pain and I was unable to help him get it out. Helpless and panicked I just started nervous laughing. I had to drive him to the hospital where they surgical removed the catheter. It was horrible.
to quote south park “Awkward = comedy”
I laughed and then felt sad.
I don’t find this funny. It’s just sad.
It is not being played for comedy? I don’t know where you got that from.
Yeah I agree. The “and another thing -” energy genuinely made me laugh. They did not need to say all that!!! It also makes me feel genuinely bad for Becky, but both can be true. Knowing Becky will still get to react after this is the best of both worlds to me honestly
Nooo that was supposed to be a reply to ESM… well you get the gist. I do think it’s being played for comedy, because Willis can and has easily done comedy & drama in the same strip. Sometimes it doesn’t work imo, but it’s pretty good here.
How do you get comedy out of this?
Great job girls, nailed it in one
Oh, see, Becky, she didn’t say THE worst thing! She said like five of the worst things, and Dorothy helped! Technically, Willis heard our prayers! Good result, right?
…Becky?
She hasn’t said the worst thing until she tells Becky how much Dorothy is like her.
Big Sad Becky is quite painful to behold 🙁
And sad Dina is going to be worse.
Don’t worry about the dream though, it was really about your dad’s dome being caved in.
Joyce is re-writing history because
she was certainly not smitten at first sight
THANK YOU. I wasn’t going to say it but I was thinking the exact same thing. Yes they’ve had a fast and strong friendship but she was not in love with her at first sight and most certainly didn’t want to kiss her at first sight
Honestly I kinda wish we…got to see Joyce having an arc about coming to terms about her feelings about Dorothy. It feels so weird to see her openly declare her romantic and sexual love for a woman without seeing her have an arc where she questions her own sexuality and slowly comes to terms with those feelings.
Insomuch that we’ve seen her more or less go through that arc with every other major shift in her character EXCEPT her atheism. Which tbh I ALSO wish we got to see more of. I can believe Joyce eventually can recontextualize feelings she had at an earlier date and go “oh, I’ve been crushing for a long time” but MAN it feels like we jumped past an introspective arc leading us here.
I agree, and I think that’s the cause of why people like me feel like it came out of nowhere. It took her a super long time to get over all of her other Christian fundie hang-ups, she still couldn’t have sex with Joe even though she’s desperately horny, and yet she was able to just accept being bisexual and in love with Dorothy without any kind of dilemma or crisis. Hell even atheists often have a harder time coming to terms with realizing they’re queer than Joyce did. Dorothy did. But Joyce just immediately went full throttle into “Why don’t you fuck it out of me Dorothy”. That’s why it feels out of nowhere and very jarring
I suspect it has to do with the religious teaching that sex makes babies. Despite accepting that Becky isn’t a virgin she still on some level sees being with Dorothy as a loophole. It’s not logical at all but I suspect in her subconscious its better then risking standard sex with Joe.I think this could explain how why she immediately makes a move on Dorothy right when she plans to get with Joe.
Honestly a lot of Joyce’s hesitation with Joe feels like it comes from a place of trauma because she was nearly date-raped. There’s other feelings of shame wrapped up in there too, but keep in mind Joyce used to be unable to walk on campus alone without seeing that dude’s face everywhere. Hence, sexual encounters with men are always going to be a bit cagey for her. And yet we’ve also seen her enjoy some finger action as well as give Joe a handy.
So the leap with Dorothy makes sense to me, because she doesn’t have that kind of trauma with a woman.
Fair but don’t underestimate religious trauma
As someone with religious trauma, trust me, I don’t.
Also I’m an idiot maybe I swear I didn’t see a reply thing next to your name prior but now I do? Huh.
I don’t see the reply to the one where you said it’s hard for her to trust herself and be vulnerable, so I’ll say it here- Dorothy is the person she trusts the most out of anyone. Dorothy has been her guide to morality and judgement since they became friends, and Joyce really needed that. I understand viewing someone that way. Dorothy is someone she feels completely safe with and shame free with at this point, so that definitely aided in her quick acceptance. But yeah, in spite of me kno int that, this arc has felt a bit jarring. I’ve always wanted them to end up together, but mannnnnnnnnn
This is what I’ve always read her hesitation and her need for sexual encounters with Joe to be completely on impulse as, yeah—it’s the trauma, it’s fucking mincemeat Ryan dipshit hurting her from beyond the veil of whatever farm for assholes he got sent to. It’s not that she doesn’t want Joe, it’s that a man hurt her and took advantage of her and her trust was destroyed way back then.
Another woman has never done that to Joyce, and so it’s easier. Of course it’s easier.
(I would also venture to point out that Joyce’s atheism stemmed from a complete inability to accept Becky as “cursed” or “evil” because of queerness, which is probably why she speedran her own queer awakening behind the scenes. If Becky isn’t evil, why would she be evil?)
God, thank you, I completely blanked on that guy’s name, RYAN. Man, wonder if he’s still hooked up in the hospital… But I 100% agree, Joyce has long been interested in Joe, even tried fantasizing about him in the shower, but after something like that, it’s an uphill battle to trust yourself with someone in a vulnerable position.
I agree that it’s very believable that Joyce is able to more easily accept her attraction for women based on her experiences with Becky. I’d also add Ethan to that list, to a lesser extent. Even more recently, her acceptance of Jocelyne adds to her accepting and normalizing LGBTQ+ people.
It’s not exactly the same, but figuring out I was gay and coming out was really hard. Years later, coming out and integrating the fact that I was nonbinary was very easier. Adding aromantic to the list a few years after that was easier still (well, aside from the horribly painful break up it caused, but integrating it into my identity once I’d identified it went more smoothly at least…).
Maybe, but I don’t think the trauma from Ryan is really needed as an explanation. For an ex-fundie, she wasn’t really being slow about having sex with Joe, she was speed running it. The hangups don’t vanish instantly the moment you deconvert. She went from not even being able to masturbate to blowjobs in a little more than a week.
It’s also possible that not following through on the plan to fuck after their date had something to do with almost kissing Dorothy right before the date and whatever was going on in her head about that.
These are all great points and very valid, just explaining why it felt so sudden to me
I think the stuff with her and Jennifer talking about Alice was meant to be the switch, where Joyce talked herself into something approaching Jen’s attitude towards it, especially since she decided she’d already crossed the line in the laundry room.
I think we have enough to piece things together, but with the other characters in this story you don’t really have to, it’s much more obvious.
I feel like Joyce is like Monkey D. Luffy, we don’t get to see much of how she thinks about things privately, we only get to see her outward actions and speech. Of course it’s less pronounced in this comic because we don’t get to hear anyone’s internal monologue but like, most other characters have moments to themself where we get to see a moment of reflection, Joyce very rarely does. For the audience, she is harder to read than other characters. It makes her seem more impulsive.
I also wish we’d seen more of Joyce consciously realizing she loves Dorothy. My understanding is that Willis figured Joyce was an easier sell as bi so focused their efforts on Dorothy.
It kind of feels like Joyce hasn’t been a POV character for a little while. Almost like we’re getting the experience of Dorothy and Joe, wondering what the heck she’s thinking, and the insecurity that goes with that.
Almost… because it’s not working for me. I’m not enamored by Joyce, so I’m not heartbroken or hopeful.
I get wanting to see that, but sometimes you don’t have a long protracted arc about how you feel about your sexuality. Sometimes you just meet *that* person, or find out they’re into you, or see them wearing something sexy for the first time, and a switch flips in your brain and “Oooooh, THAT’S what those feelings were this whole time.”
This entire comic has been Joyce’s awakening arc.
well you see the funny thing about this is that she forgot that happened and is probably thinking about the SECOND time they met: https://www.dumbingofage.com/dexter/ (idk how to do the link as text thing in html)
because how could you not look at this cute, round-faced nerd sheepishly explain the cartoon characters on her folder without falling a little in love?
That’s actually hilarious. SOMEONE had love at first sight but it wasn’t Joyce
Oh Walky.
Poor Dolt.
Yep. Walky fell in love at first sight.
Of her D&MM binder.
*sigh* losing my touch…
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/02-uphill-from-here/dexter/
Just cause it’s funny, I’d like to offer for the consideration of the court a different strip from later in this interaction: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/02-uphill-from-here/why/
Might be how she remembers it, might be she’s playing it up because Dorothy is there.
That’s the first time they met? Yeah that’s definitely not love at first sight. Either Joyce is remembering wrong, or she’s lying again.
Joyce has always been overly-romantic with a very flexible definition of true love
it makes sense she’d look back on her first time meeting dot with extremely rose tinted glasses as if she was already seeing her through a romantic light
It was meeting Billie and then Sal that Joyce got all starry eyed about for real, lol.
Becky, noooooooo 🙁
Confession diarrhoea
The opposite of emotional constipation!
I think this is a case of being too honest girls
Girls c’mon, USUALLY the place to be gay is anywhere Becky is but let’s reign (Dumbing of Age Horse Race Tests pun not intended) it in a bit
this is *joyce’s room* this is the *best place* for her to be gay!
That’s a premium fuel to the haters…
The last thing Joyce said has to be what stings the most to Becky. It’s Joyce getting carried away in her romantic fantasy of her and Dorothy’s courtship and confirming what Becky’s inferiority complex has probably been telling her all this time alone in the dark: it’s not that she wasn’t into girls. It’s you. You’re the problem. You’re not good enough. You never were. You never will be.
From Becky’s perspective I should say, before I’m misinterpreted here.
I agree with your assessment, which I might add, you articulated far better than I could have.
100%. In before all the “Becky has no right to have feelings”, let’s not act like this isn’t totally human and relatable
Naw I’m with you here. It’s like Joyce and Dorothy have made it their mission to upset literally everyone in their friend group.
And yet somehow this is the first time they’ve actually succeeded on-camera.
The second hand embarrassment is real.
Oh, it’s 100% relatable.
And 100% college freshman.
and becky really need one of them (of anyone really) to tell her it isnt her fault, and it was never about her. we dont get to control other emotions
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/01-move-in-day/pizza/
It’s a romantic line, but I think this is when they first saw each other (not just in the background of each other’s panels). Not a lot of fireworks. Could be that Joyce is remembering it through some new-relationship-coloured glasses.
She’s definitely getting carried away and romanticizing every interaction they’ve ever had. It’s a better love story if it was at first sight!
The more romantic the love story, the more it justifies the hurt they’ve caused people
Joyce is horny as fuck and on some otherwordly level of bullshit because of it. Freshmen family weekend is when she really fell for Dorothy. Definitely at least not day 1.
“I’m Ready…Depression. I’m ready…”
Joyce read the damn room jfc, Becky does not need to hear that right now oml.
Like specifically I think if they’d stopped at the horse comment it wouldn’t have twisted the knife quite as much lol
Joyce is medically incapable of “reading the room”. Willis, also on the spectrum, is well aware of this fact.
I’m *also* on the spectrum and Joyce has previously demonstrated the ability to read the room and empathize with unspoken context before???? Like, if she could reason that Joe rated her a 0 on his list because he was upset at her and that she must’ve had a different number before—and wasn’t upset by that but curious enough to reach down and find the answer inside of him—I think she has the social acuity to look at her crying best friend and reason “She is crying, people cry when they are sad, Dorothy and I have been scared of her finding out about us because it would make her sad, maybe I should let Dorothy handle this.”
Like, Dorothy’s answer is also autistic af because she’s like me and we both need to give absolute 100% full disclosure on things because you never know if it’ll piss someone off because neurotypical reactions to simple statements feel completely random, but Joyce has shown the ability to be more discerning repeatedly in the past.
Joyce is very very caught up in NRE. She is being a bit of a dick here the same way she’s been a bit of a dick throughout this arc–the new shiny thing is most of what brain space is available for. In the exact moment of being asked to engage something else she will, but she magnets back to the new thing euphoria kind of immediately. This is common NRE behavior, people tend to have to grow out of it (via being intentionally cognizant of it) after they experience the problems it causes for their other relationships. And some of them just don’t grow out of it. >_> I know one of those people.
Anyway that shit ain’t autism it’s immaturity. It sucks. It’s also sucking in a pretty consistent way, not just here. Which is what we call an unfortunately very hurtful character flaw.
A third person on the spectrum piping up to remind that an autistic person’s ability to navigate such social issues can fluctuate. Especially with stress like she’s been dealing with for the past day.
He gave her a zero minus, the only girl with that specific number (though there were other zeroes), but he ALSO asked her out, and then she hired Mike to champerone them and Mike punched him a lot for looking at other girls and Joyce, too, punched him.
So. It did not take any detective work at all to determine that she must have had a different number before, and I don’t think she meant “before I hurt you emotionally”, because they barely talked between those two strips.
(Joe was the one she texted about her parents anyway, but that was after he’d updated her rating to a zero minus, and she definitely didn’t do anything else to hurt him.)
Medically incapable of reading the room might be the shittiest way to express that sentiment, holy fuck.
I’m sorry, are you personally an autistic person who constantly catches shit for their inability to read the room? Because as an autistic person who constantly catches shit for their inability to read the room it’s the people expecting a character we know damn well is autistic to navigate a social situation with ease and make all the right choices in what she says and to “read the room” properly that I’m finding offensive.
I’m sorry that is what you have experienced. I have not experienced that myself. However, I think I’m within my right to say that insisting people with autism are ‘medically incapable of reading the room’ is a shitty thing to say. I won’t apologize for that. And I for one am not one of these people expecting Joyce to read the room and make all the right character choices so I’m unsure why I’m catching strays other than for taking offense to that kind of language.
This is an incredibly shitty sentiment, and also not true. Autism is a spectrum and expresses itself in different ways in different people. It does not mean we categorically cannot read a room.
What the fuck
Is that also your excuse for why you’re repeatedly dumping an incredibly reductive (and kinda offensive) version of autism in this thread?
Boooo get off the stage 🍅🍅🍅
I’m autistic without being a jerk! Very autistic! This is the smug asshole behavior (minus the sexual component) I had to learn to outgrow in middle school!
Oh my lanta?
..Joyce what the fuck
Man, they’re really ramming the knife in and twisting it lol
“you have to stick the knife in their back and twist, Twist, TWIST!”
*Writing it down* “knife in back, twist twist twist”
Also, before anyone else can do it.
I am simultaneously anticipating and dreading Carol’s reaction to all of this. Maybe she will perform an exorcism on Joyce?
Man, fuck Carol. I hope she never hears about this.
It was in the school newspaper. Even if Carol herself doesn’t see the picture, somebody she knows will.
Aw. Poor Becky I guess. Don’t trust horse dreams.
DAMN, Joyce! Twist the knife in your BFF’s back a little more, huh?
GALS! USELESS GAYS! NOW IS NOT THE TIME!
Welp, there’s disastrous sapphics, and then there’s disastrous sapphics.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/02-uphill-from-here/why/
It seems a bit unlikely to me that Joyce and Dorothy were romantically interested in each other from the moment they met. I could be wrong, because I haven’t read those early strips in a very long time, but that just seems unlikely.
I’m pretty sure it’s more Joyce recontextualizing her feelings for Dorothy with how strong/positive they were at the time with her realization that she can be attracted to women. Amusingly, Joyce and Dorothy’s first real proper introduction to one another, the moment Joyce is probably thinking of…is the strip that first showed Walky having a blatantly obvious crush on Dorothy.
Yup
It’s DOA.
The author can always write a prequel story where Joyce got a crush on her prior. During move in day or something. Orientation
They weren’t, their first meeting was super mundane but Joyce is looking back with extremely tinted glasses. Not unusual, mind, I think a lot of people do it because it makes for a better narrative.
IMHO this is just more of Joyce’s Inner Hallmark Movie/Fundie Programming — she currently loves Dorothy, and that means she’s ALWAYS loved Dorothy and it was ALWAYS Destined Twue Wuv. If it wasn’t, she’d have to contemplate the ongoing consequences and ethics of her actions, but since it is, all actions in service of Twue Wuv are justified and good.
Joyce got far more excited and/or ambiguously gay when she met Billie and Sal, for sure lol. It’s her usual romantic destiny fantasy, now with slightly less cult flavor. (If she’s IN LOVE with her SOULMATE then she’ll feel less like a hussy for being horny, ok?!)
Where’s my Joyce/Billie endgame?
To quote the great David Rose “I have never heard someone say so many wrong things, one after the other, consecutively, in a row”.
WOW. nothing but foot in mouth today huh
Panel 3: Quit while you’re ahead.
Panel 5:….Quit while you’re behind.
Panel 6: Please just Quit, please stop talking-
Wisdom is knowing the difference between candor and rubbing salt in the wou d
Dream horseriding? Nah, everything is. Except the kiss.
#dranks
ooooh, that third panel… Becky *knew*, didn’t she?
That’s so cute. Totally inappropriate, not true and almost certainly going to send Becky into a suicidal spiral, but very cute, Joyce.
Honestly this is one of those gooey lovey dovey couples that irks me. New love, the grossest love. >:T Get a Room (oh wait this is your room).
Yeah, they were trying, but Becky the Misogynist hates to see a bad bongo win.
Look at that last panel. Truly the face of an incel.
Only incels would be sad in this situation
Irks….Sirks…..Sirksome! Lets GO! Sorry couldn’t resist. These two are mad annoying though for real.
♫♫ Love is preeeeeeetty when love is new
Like a blushing rose in a dazzlin’ dew ♫♫
It will be interesting to be interesting to see this relationship past the honeymoon phase for several reasons.
Oooh for sure. They’re VERY lovey-dovey right now, but what’s their “status quo” gonna be like?
It’s gonna take forever :<
The new relationship energy is cute now, but is it load bearing?
I keep misreading Becky’s sleeve stripes in the final panel as someone holding her shoulders/bracing her (and if it was, she could probably use it, but nah just sleeves)
I would have liked this comic interpersed with Dan and Joe. .or Walky .
Dorothy at least understands the “ride the pony” dream.
I know I wanted Becky feelings decentered. But the forlorn stares give me tonal whiplash.
“The day I first met you ” ( how romantic)
Becky ( hidden icecycle stabs her in the heart. She’s not dead but will never feel again)
Joyce/ Dorothy aren’t my fav pair. But they do have love chemistry. And it would be nice to get that celebrated. Till a plot climax. Without coitus of relationship interruptus.
Annoyingly I need them to work more because Joyce/ Joe was seemingly ended prematurely. Now they are a standin for Joyce growing up and out of fundieism.
Joyce/Joe hasn’t ended. Joyce kind of needs to tell Dorothy about that…
Oh the Paladins are gonna FEAST on this one.
I am ABSOLUTELY not feasting. That Becky is being given more consideration in this than the people who got cheated on is a turd cherry on top of a diarrhea sundae.
This, and Becky’s not even being given any real consideration by the characters (even while the narrative is making her reaction The Most Important Thing In This Story), given that the answer to ‘how long’ is ‘omg since the day we met!!! :-D’
I don’t know that I’d express it in THOSE terms, but you’re not really far off from how I feel.
You just don’t have a poetic soul like mine, I guess. (/jk)
Apologies, should have clarified my comment better. I meant “feasting” as in tearing into Joyce/Dorothy being kinda awful towards Becky with their confession. Maybe “raising pitchforks and swords” would’ve been better phrasing.
Oh, then my stance is “I don’t care” – I’ve always been on the camp that these two owe Becky exactly zero explanations regarding their relationship with each other. Like, this might the first “no problems detected” part of this arc for me (but maybe I’m forgetting other non-problematic parts).
*long, disappointed, tired sigh*
Idiots, the both of them. Thoughtless as hell.
Yeah, welcome to autism.
Autistic people are capable of tact and thoughtfulness and it is insulting that you are repeatedly acting as if we categorically are not.
It is *wildly* condescending
I’m being “wildly condescending” toward myself?
Not towards yourself but to other autistic people. Many of us have capabilities you seem to think we cannot; and being neurotypical doesn’t excuse or incline someone to be an asshole. There is a difference between learning to mask (harmful) and learning to respect other people and I hate when folks use our condition as an excuse to hurt people without remorse
maybe? you are just one autistic person lol and you should know we are
a diverse bunch. Anyway its possible for autistic people to internalize
negative things about themselves, because of course it is.
autistic people are sometimes thought of as blunt or thoughtless
and sometimes this is true but its not like we have zero control over
this
You can be yes. I do it all the time!
If autism is a spectrum, and we know it is, then yes, your refrain of “this is autism” is plausibly condescending to people who are on a different part of the spectrum than the one you’re on.
Bingo.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/05-media-rumble/boo/
Obviously not the first time Dorothy and Joyce met, but also clearly the first time they were more than just two people in the same room. While I wouldn’t say Joyce was obviously going “oh boy I wanna kiss that girl”, the fact that she would approach Dorothy with intent to befriend her could be based on some level of attraction she couldn’t understand yet. Like “that atheist girl is so weird, but she’s pretty and nice…” keep in mind she literally has no reason to approach Dorothy here. Yeah, they live in the same hallway and share a couple classes, so do other people.
And yet… Joyce felt the desire… to befriend Dorothy. Hmmmm… and then would go on to be very jealous of Walky’s relationship with Dorothy. Hmmmmmm….
Also I slapped this comment here because I didn’t feel like going to every comment that was like “um achtually, that is not in fact what happened when they first met”. Remember guys, characters can just say things and Joyce doesn’t have to necessarily be meaning the very first moment they were in the comic together.
Those are actually some intriguing points. Like you mentioned she met Dorothy earlier and indeed sought her out here in part of apologize for previous behavior outside of their class together (I think that was second time they met not that Joyce might have recalled the first), but even in then Joyce was asking Dorothy to walk with her and discuss class topics and got very flustered when she over reacted to Dorothy being an atheist.
I also like that Dorothy’s reaction to Joyce’s frightened little hiccups was to call them adorable…
Honestly, there’s a chance that Joyce had a smol crush on Dorothy and if things had turned out differently, that crush would just eventually pass the way crushes do. I think the reason it galvanized into feelings like we’re seeing currently has to do with events in the story. The main instance I first think of is when Joyce’s parents disapproved of Dorothy and Joyce had to decide, in a very tense moment, whether she was going to hang her head and obediently listen to her parents, perhaps ditch Dorothy and her friendship forever, or if she was going to stand up to them and defend her new best friend. Something like that is usually fueled by some big feelings…
Similarly, I’ve long been saying that Dorothy’s feelings for Joyce likely turned when Joyce was kidnapped and shoved into a van. Life or death situations do a lot for the emotions and as far as Dorothy knew, that might have been the last time she’d ever see Joyce.
Even though I’ve come around to liking Joyce/Dorothy as romantic partners instead of friends, it still makes me sad to see some of my favorite moments of the comic reinterpreted under this lens. Joyce has had so many amazing moments that really hit home to me because they were demonstrations of platonic love. They showed that friendship *can* be that strong, and one doesn’t need to be romantically attracted to someone to care enough to be brave, strong, and so on…
I don’t mean to get down on the ship, especially when I already think people are being too hard on these two. It just makes me sad when stories feel like they’re making romantic love the end-all-be-all of life. Thankfully, there are other examples of powerful friendships, and as I said, I have come around to enjoying them as a romantic pair, messiness, mistakes, and all.
I understand. I used to have difficulty with liking some romantic pairings because the shift from platonic to romantic love felt selfish, if that makes sense? Like instead of someone doing thing for other person because they had selfless love, now they’re doing it cause they wanna fuck. Of course, a lot of that came from my own feelings of trying to understand myself as a sex-repulsed asexual. But I understand where you’re coming from and I don’t wanna make you feel like I’m shitting on your feelings or how you interpreted the comic. Internet expression of support?
My feelings are pretty different since I’m aroallo, but I get it. It can feel really jarring to watch relationships shift from one you understand on a personal level to one that’s fundamentally based on attraction(s) you don’t feel.
It’s especially rough when it feels like the importance and validity of the feelings you can experience are dismissed or downplayed.
Like here, we have a situation where Joyce has been Becky’s best friend for their whole lives. In the past few months, Joyce has gone to bat for Becky multiple times. She’s made major sacrifices and taken huge risks in the name of protecting and supporting Becky. And yet, the only thing that matters in this moment is that Joyce didn’t love Becky the way Becky wanted and how much pain that causes Becky. Everything else Joyce has ever done (all the things I’d be capable of doing, since I’m aromantic) are just erased and forgotten…
I absolutely get where you’re coming from. Idk yet if I am aro, (still figuring stuff out) but I definitely don’t get as horny or lustful as ppl make themselves out to be sometimes. It can be super frustrating seeing a world where ppl are acting like relationships are the only thing that matters and have overwhelming priorities over other friendships or feelings that I think are just as legitimate as the romance.
However, romantic feeling do seem to be a real part of the equation too, and the way that Joyce and Dorothy are just totally disregarding Becky’s feelings here is pretty jarring.
There also seems to be a lot of undercurrents in their friendship which kinda really complicates things for them. Honestly, I really don’t think that their relationship can be boiled down to something so simple as ‘platonic BFFs’ anymore.
To start off with, it kinda feels like Becky is a bit of an outsider in Joyce’s friendgroup. I mean, she just has such an over the top personality, nobody really knows how to interact or be close with her (except for Dina, ofc) Not that they’re not friendly, but she’s kinda been shouting at the top of her voice that she’s Lesbian since day one. To be frank, if somebody came up and shouted their sexual orientation at me, no matter what it was, I would be a bit put off.
At this point, Becky seems to have branded herself as a bit of an outsider. While she seems aggressively okay with that, and sometimes leans into that role a bit too much, there’s always kinda been that difference in dynamic between her being the loud new person and Joyce being the loveable wierdo that everybody has already accepted. (This is best shown in the way that she interacts with Dorothy; continued antagonism in the face of peaceful tolerance)
So, while Becky may be friendly with other ppl, she’s not really good friends with them, and has relied on Dina and Joyce to be her really good friends.
Which has kinda really sucked for her, cause Joyce hasn’t been a super good friend.
I mean, remember that whole thing where Joyce came out as an atheist? She was caught INSULTING CHRISTIANS (and therefore Becky) and being super mean and jaded, and then she refused to apologize for it. In fact, it took Dorothy to get her to cool off a little bit and attempt an apology (and, rereading that whole story line, she never really apologized for anything)
That whole episode drove a major wedge between them that they’ve kind of moved past but haven’t really and are kinda just pretending it doesn’t exist even though it totally does? It’s a bit complicated (To be clear, I’m definitely not hating on Joyce, I’m just pointing out that she made a mistake (as everyone does) and didn’t do the work to fix her relationship with Becky afterwards)
I think something that put an extra bit of tension between them also was that Jocelynn told Becky and Dina about her uncloseting before she told Joyce.
So while they were definitely really good freinds before all of that hot mess, it kinda shows that Joyce has been slowly gravitating away from Becky and neglecting their friendship.
I think Becky kind of sensed this, and was desperate to stop it from happening, especially because she relied on Joyce as her only real platonic friend at college. She probably views this kiss as the final nail in the coffin of their friendship. Not only because of the romantic betrayal, (though that’s definitely part of it) but because Joyce as stopped considering her feelings entirely, first by rejection, then atheism, then getting drunk without her, and finally by kissing another lady even though she knows this will hurt Becky’s feelings incredibly. By this kiss, Becky sees Joyce as essentially saying “I don’t really care about you or your feelings any more”
Interesting thought:
Perhaps part of the reason for their estrangement is that Joyce subconciously connects Becky with the fundie upbringing that she’s trying to leave behind, and her total rejection of her upbringing is also causing her to push Becky away as well? (unintentionally, ofc)
she admits to pushing becky away unconsiously do to not knowing how to handle becky’s continued faith in the fave of all thats happened when joyce has embraced atheism
I’m willing to forgive Joyce of a lot of her behavior over Christianity. Joyce has been seriously traumatized by religion, and I’m not going to blame her for struggling to navigate things. I’m almost 35 and have been an atheist for over a decade, and I still sometimes struggle to navigate situations where people are being overtly religious. It’s deeply, deeply uncomfortable in a way that’s hard to describe if you aren’t in a similar situation. I wasn’t raised nearly as religious as Joyce, so her pain probably goes even deeper.
I also don’t think it’s fair to blame the distance entirely on Joyce. Becky has constantly been possessive of Joyce and antagonistic towards Dorothy, which is a huge problem. It’s been played for laughs, and we haven’t seen any major, overt fallout as a result, but I can see that being another reason why the two have become more distant. And Becky sure as hell hasn’t apologized for that behavior. The closest she’s come is calling it “a bit,” which is still not okay, since it’s a way of downplaying any feelings Dorothy and Joyce might have in response to it.
Importantly, this behavior has been an ongoing issue since the day Becky first came back into Joyce’s life. Meanwhile, the negative comments about Christians was a one time thing. The comments made here are also a one time mess up of probably saying too much. So if we’re talking about who owes who which apologies for which mistakes, Becky is squarely at the top of the list because she’s responsible for consistent, ongoing hurtful behavior, not a few one time slights.
Not that I expect an apology right here in this moment, obviously. That just felt like the best way to put into words the fact that she’s also made serious mistakes; it’s not all on Joyce.
Also, side note: horniness would generally be asexual, not aromantic. One can 100% be very horny while also being aromantic.
Shoutout to Brennan Lee Mulligan for aggressively shitting on the idea of Friendship OR Love being the Greatest Magic of All, not because they can’t be powerful but because of how that ranks feelings and the really cruel messages it sends about every bond between people that DIDN’T break a curse, etc.
“What? Love! No! That’s stupid! The greatest power of all is CHRONOMANCY!!!”
❤️
Thank you. Folks saying Joyce is “lying” was really rubbing me the wrong way. She’s obviously recontextualizing somewhat, but like. Yeesh.
Joyce has been actively calling Dorothy the most perfect, never wrong, most pure being since FOREVER.(In IRL time(
She’s had it bad for a while.
Yeah.
And, like, was that supposed to be platonic at the time? Sure. But Joyce isn’t the only one recontextualizing: Willis is, too.
I’ve been especially irritated when people are framing it as “more lying.” At no point have these two considered any sort of real deception towards anyone. The closest they’ve come is procrastinating things until the next morning.
But lying? Joyce has her flaws, but dishonesty is not one of them.
I did see one person say that specifically and I made a face like 😐
I won’t go so far as to say that Joyce hasn’t done any lying in this storyline, though. It’s just that it’s been lying by omission: she didn’t tell Joe about Dorothy prior to oral sex, and she hasn’t told Dorothy yet about Joe.
If I had to guess on the latter, I’d say it’s a combination of her being absolutely drunk on New Relationship Energy and the endorphins of “surprise! outed by the school newspaper” plus having no idea how to tell Dorothy about what Joe said, and that she doesn’t know how she feels about it yet either.
Which doesn’t make it okay that she was clearly planning on getting intimate with Dorothy, seemingly without telling her something that COULD completely change how Dorothy feels about all of this.
(Low odds on Dorothy wanting to break up with her over it, but not impossible!)
Same as how it was not cool of her to have oral sex with Joe without actually telling him about Dorothy. She got lucky there! She is pushing her luck to try it again, but she’s also never done any of this before and, I think, obviously flying somewhat blind.
“This feels like cheating,” she told Joe about the masturbation, and he said she was wrong.
“I cheated on you,” she told him about kissing Dorothy, and he said he was actually okay with her and Dorothy continuing to do things and wanted to keep dating her.
I’m not saying Joe bears any blame here?!??! But I do think Joyce has learned to internalize that her instincts about things are “often wrong”, and she’s NOT taking the critical step of asking, “Okay, if THAT was okay, can you tell me what WOULDN’T be okay?”, and that miiiight be about to bite her in the butt with Dorothy.
We will see.
…but yeah, “more lying” is still a very — specific reaction to have to Joyce being romantic and rose-colored glasses about her and Dorothy’s first meeting!
Rather than nitpicking what counts as lying, I’ll just rephrase my statement as “Joyce has not committed or planned any serious deception.” She has, at worst, delayed telling people things. Considering it’s likely been less than an hour since her conversation with Joe (not, as it might seem from our perspective, several weeks), I don’t think she’s hiding her conversation with Joe from Dorothy. She’s just waiting for a better time than blurting it out in front of Daisy or dropping it in the middle of this conversation with Becky.
I mean, this transition from Joe/Joyce and Walky/Dorothy with Becky as an emotionally invested third party to whatever’s coming next is messy as hell. Characters are making mistakes, doing things out of the “ideal” order, putting their foot in their mouths, etc.
However, there isn’t any malice or serious deception going on. People are hating on Joyce and Dorothy almost as badly as some of the truly awful human beings we’ve seen in this comic when their “sin” is making mistakes while navigating a very complex and emotionally charged relationship transition.
Don’t you realize that Joyce is now an evil harlot and all her actions are done with the express purpose of being as evil as possible? /s
Hey, let’s not exaggerate. 99% of evil harlot comments aren’t making it past moderation!
I’m pretty sure this is the moment Joyce is referring to. Like I said yesterday, I think we missed Joyce’s falling-for-Dorothy arc because we were all distracted by Walky’s flailing.
And there we are. Joyce and Dorothy have both come down with foot in mouth disease and their effort to reassure Becky has backfired.
TOO MUCH CANDOR, ABORT, ABORT
….Candor calls for aide
Where was Candor when the Westfold fell?!
Streaming on Disney+, played by Diego Luna.
(C.Andor)
Panels 3-5 were unnecessary and needlessly cruel.
Some things don’t need to be said, even if they are true. Or ESPECIALLY if they are true.
God, they’re just straight up oblivious, huh?
They have to be, because I’m not willing to accept them being this cruel intentionally.
Nope, this is very definitely gay/bi up oblivious.
I think it starts, as Dorothy said, in the service of complete candor. They don’t want to hide something that might come out later and make Becky think they really were lying this time.
But then by the end, they’re just reminiscing and romanticizing.
Given how many people in the comments have been slamming them as liars for concealing literally any information about their feelings, it’s hard to blame them for wanting to be thorough. Of course, most of those same commenters are now slamming them for being willfully cruel. As usual, Joyrothy can’t win.
I still don’t know why y’all insist on that god awful consonanty mouthful of a shipname
I really don’t even know how it’s meant to be pronounced.
DoJo sounds way better.
dojo = hojo which depending on age is either a mad genentisist with a fetish for interbreedign species, or short for homer jr.
also dojo = training centre for martial arts, again no really fitting.
also dojo gives no clues to the whos in the pairign which ion my books is essential (could easily be don johnson’s kickname, or a don and jon pair)
joyrothy makes more sense in the context of the comics. as for pronunciation i would say joy-row-thee would be the way
Okay but we’re talking in a context where everyone knows who you’re talking about. Joyrothy is like 30% Joyce 70% Dorothy, it’s unbalanced (I am a shameless hypocrite bc I call dot and Walky Dorky, but that least into my next point)
The catchier the better with a ship name. It needs to stick in your head and feel good to say. Maybe it’s my bias bc JoJo is iconic and peak as a ship name, but DoJo is cool and punchy and way less ugly than jOyRoThY. I’ll even take jorothy as I initially misread it over that and I thought that shit was nasty
The worst version I’ve ever seen was in the title of an essay on Reddit about why op didn’t like the ship and storyline. Did not read a word of it bc I was too distracted by “Joycrothy”
On hands and knees begging people to call it Theocracy as Willis intended
i will always be Team Theocracy first and foremost but like, if one insists on shipnames-made-of-names then Joyrothy kinda beats everything else by some margin by keeping it clear who’s involved (the y is loadbearing), being fun to speak aloud (joy-row-thee), and having the correct order re: top/bottom (absolutely paramount in shipping weeb parlance)
I like Theocracy, which I don’t think I’ve heard before, but the other advantage to DoJo is that it pairs nicely with JoJo
I gotta disagree about it being fun to say out loud. My mouth does not like it. Too much jaw movement and puckering, it’s a mouthful and again, too consonant heavy.
So like every other ship name for anyone, ever since tabloids popularized it or even invented it for couples whose privacy they were invading.
If they wanna win they can start being interesting
I don’t think I’ve ever felt worse for a fictional character who wasn’t murdered or tortured or something as I do for Becky right now.
There’s so much going through Becky’s head, none of it is good, and Joyce and Dorothy are not helping by getting carried away and talking like they’re the great love story of all time.
urge to lesbian auntie my darling Becky intensifies.
I had unrequited feelings for my (same sex) straight best friend when I was a teenager still figuring out being bi.
That sucked enough, I can’t imagine how worse it would have been if it turned out they were were actually queer but just not into me and proceeded to shack up with a mutual and say stuff like this.
I would have been despondent and even more self loathing than I was!
Not just a mutual but the frenemy who’s your rival for their attention
Someone called it yesterday (and before), that Joyce has a real talent for earnestly saying The Worst Things.
Me when I channel the blind seer of Thebes, Tiresias (also I was the one who said that, it is a pathological need she has to just say the dumbest possible shit. It goes hand in hand with being a beautiful charismatic kind blorbo whomst I love, is she also just opens her mouth and says things that make Azathoth Themself go ‘bongo you said WHAT??’”
Indeed it was.
(And I know well of Tiresias, both from the source and his appearance in 7 Faces of Dr. Lao.)
She’s done it from the start but it hurts so much here AGHHHH
Candor does not require anything said after the “almost kissing” part, you oblivious and insensitive jackasses. Not Realizing It is not part of what Becky’s asking right now. Yer volunteering excess emotional harm at the exact wrong moment *strangling motions*
Dorothy all you needed to say was why Becky found you awake and despondent the other night and it would probably all click.
Y’know, when Walky was being an unquestioningly caring and supportive boyfriend to you. Before you let Joyce laugh cruelly at him.
reading through this comment thread and whoof, a lot of you haven’t felt sapphic love and it shows.
These poor babies are just now realizing how deeply into this shit they’ve been for a while now and the whole thread is like “wow how inconsiderate of them” have you considered dorothy and joyce have feelings too? that maybe those feelings are the ones that should be centered right now, *in Joyce’s fucking room*?
damn it’s kind of weird to make assumptions about people’s personal lives and romantic history based on how they react. to plot points. in a webcomic.
I mean it’s also kinda weird that platypus’s lay eggs too… Like why do they need to do that, make milk AND be poisonous?
Evolution says yes. Clearly all the versions of the platypus that didn’t do those things died out.
Evolution is a cruel mistress, because of Hyenas…
You’d think at one point someone would mutate out of the pseudopeen and pass that trait down but nope. You just gotta give birth outta that shit.
You’d think! But nooooo gotta make it awful :I
Evolution’s also weird because clearly it’s not designed to be optimal. You can have a fucked up build where you only eat plants that are clearly poisonous and also wear down your teeth over time and you could totally eat something else if you wanted but instead you eat the poison plant and only the specific one you were born eating the shit version of from your mom’s asshole until all your teeth fall out or are ground to nubs and you starve to death, but since no one else is stupid enough to do that to directly compete with you in your hell on Earth natural habitat you haven’t been Darwin’d into extinction yet.
Koalas?
The most perfect description I’ve ever read of the koala’s ecological niche, honestly.
way for a chlimidia vaccine for koalas!
yeah but you gotta admit it’s kind of awesome that evolution can just do stuff like that sometimes
Evolution is so cool but it’s also scary.
Why does a shrimp need a punch with so much force it’s like being shot?
Why does a Elephant have to basically be pregnant for 2 years?
Why do fools fall in love!?
THEY HACKED THE SYSTEM!!! #COOLCHEATSONLINEFREE
Mammals didn’t come out of nowhere. At one point their ancestors all had eggs, and then milk probably first evolved out of sweat to keep those wet. At that point eggs and milk would have been the standard combination.
But then almost everything like that was out-competed by the new live-bearers. When that happens, if anything survives, it’s because it had something special. Platypuses and echidnas both did things marsupials don’t…the others got replaced by them.
Worst thing I have read today is “Milk probably first evolved out of sweat”
Thank you 3oranges, I read that with my own eyeballs.
well yeah. Milk ducts are just repurposed sweat glands.
DON’T HELP MAKE IT WORSE YOTS!
Sorry, but I’m curious what other material that can come out of bodies would have been better to start drinking.
Pepsi.
Ew gross..Diet Coke
Your Silent Hill avatar can’t save you.
So what you’re saying is that a platypus is actually a kind of eggnog?
Yes!
100%
I mean, it’s a bit weird of them to center their own feelings when they’ve said over and over again how worried they are that Becky will be upset, and she’s standing in front of them being upset. The situation calls for some tact, regardless of whose room you’re in.
Honestly I am totally on board with you OP, and In exhausted by everyone looking for a new reason to hate joyrothy every day.
why would you even want to participate in a public comment section if you didn’t want to see people being haters
They could at least hate something cool, like white rice.
This is such an innocent comment but you have accidentally activated my trap card so here I am gonna say:
— western demonization of a literal staple of like more than half the world’s population is weird actually
— there’s nothing wrong with MSG, it was always racism, they originally called the alleged reaction Chinese Restaurant Syndrome, and controlled studies have literally proven it’s a panic attack people have when they THINK they’ve eaten MSG, not a real reaction to the actual substance
— like it’s literally still used in all kinds of western food IN AMERICA, ONLY foods perceived as “Asian” get pressured into labeling themselves “MSG-free”
Anyway white rice is fine and ancient and no carbs aren’t bad for you. Eat more vegetables, you’ll be fine unless you have an actual allergy or like, Celiac (which is not an allergy, it is an autoimmune disease).
Also just to cover my bases even more because I just remembered how the last time I defended white rice a bunch of people acted like I said “eat nothing but white rice and you’ll be fine”:
Staple != the only food in a meal?! Staple means that it was a consistent part of a people’s diet. As in a serving of white rice WITH every meal. No one has or will ever say that ANY food is so nutritionally complete that you can get away with having it and only it for every meal of the day, what a wild conclusion some folks jumped to.
“Oh I guess that means no one ever got scurvy from eating only white rice” come on folks,
(If you missed the last thread, yes that was a real argument someone tossed out, complete with a link to Wikipedia about what was basically scurvy happening to extremely poor people who were basically eating only rice…….. as if it’s the rice that’s to blame and not the extreme poverty?)
First, white rice is A+. I get those giant 50lb bags of rice because I eat rice almost every day, several times a day. My rice cooker is my most used kitchen appliance.
But you’re wrong about the “no one’s ever said any food is nutritionally complete”! I’ve seen people say that about potatoes. (I kind of agree with them.) Like, not that it is intelligent to only eat potatoes, but that you could get away with eating only potatoes every day.
Okay I’ve looked it up after typing that, it’s actually buttered potatoes. So you need the butter too. Never mind then, you’re right.
or heavy cream instead of the butter in some of the documentaries i’ve seen about the irish potato famine.
Haha, potatoes ARE very impressive! AND another topic of frequent demonization in western diet pseudoscience.
While I haven’t learned anything new myself, I respect you popping the fuck off with some MSG hard facts just because I called white rice cooler to hate than Dumbing of Age.
i am just glad you were not refering to francines short lived sitcom.
❤️
It really is exhausting. They just can’t do anything right, according to half the commenters here.
I do find it odd that people are willing to extend so much grace and understanding to Becky, defending her from the criticisms that she really should not have any stake in this race and shouldn’t feel this way “because love!”, yet they are so angrily on Joyce and Dorothy’s case for being tactless for basically the same reason.
People do dumb stuff when “high” on romantic love. Sometimes it’s holding a torch for someone who told you no months ago. Sometimes it’s being too lovey dovey in front of someone who doesn’t want to see that. I find it very confusing why some people are so inconsistent about what they are and aren’t forgiving of.
Mostly because the people doing so for DoJo are pretty annoying and Becky’s been having snipers on her ass ever since she publicly came out, so her defenders are pretty beefy
Well, it’s pretty simple when you realize they’re coming from the perspective that Joyce & Dorothy are incarnations of evil and everything they do is deliberately malicious and cruel, while everyone else they interact with are unstained avatars of innocence and light.
It really does feel like some people are taking this view. “Oh, you committed an act that’s basically the bare minimum you could take and still have it be considered cheating? Well, you’re clearly an evil monster who deserves any pain and suffering that comes your way forever.”
I’m sure there are some people saying that. There may even be a few that survive moderation.
But damn does it seem like some people are painting with a really broad brush here.
Becky is sapphic too.
@Superglucose – Yes, gods, a thousand times yes.
Ahhhh Becky. Beckyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy…
Becky’s heart literally disintigrating as she feels that dagger being stuffed into her back a little deeper with every word that comes pouring out of Joyce’s stupidity despenser. I’m literally going to laugh out loud if the next panels show Joyce getting slapped or punched along with the permenant cancellation of their friendship.
The fact you desire physical assault as some kind of catharsis is disturbing.
True. That’s what my guidance counselor says about Tom & Jerry and Dragonball Z.
there’s a difference between *desiring* something and admitting that you would be amused by fictional characters displaying contextual trope-typical emotional reactions. the nonchalance to violence towards female characters is on thin ice, but it’s doing no one any good attributing more malice than displayed.
I do not assume that William is malicious, I will be disturbed at their amusement of stereotypical violence between women none the less though.
Like it’s kinda right up there with me seeing people take the opportunity to call the girls all ‘Bongos”.
Malicious? No but I’ma wrinkle my nose at it cuz eugh
i think it’s fair to be uncomfortable by the sentiment. i just wanted to point out that william’s statement was not actually “i want this to happen” but “i’ll laugh if this happens” – which, again, is a sentiment on thin ice for exactly the reasons both you and i mentioned. but i also didn’t think it was an entirely fair reading of the response, that’s all.
Wishing for physical violence to come from this is wishing for too much. So, sorry for saying that. But I do hope it ends with Joyce and Dorothy both feeling too terrible to engage in sexy time. Right now Becky’s figuring that Joyce lied to her face from the get go about her and Dorothy’s relationship being strictly platonic friends. And Joyce, dumbass that she is, is basically reinforcing that belief with her “I loved her since I saw her” line. So, yeah. Best if she didn’t engage in physical assault, but I’d understand if she did.
Oh yeah, I hope their ladyboners are dead in the water…Granted a part of me is actually hoping someone pulls the fire alarm-
I mean, last time that happened it wasn’t great.
I mean a slap would be fun as hell but that’s just cuz I’m a drama fiend from desperate housewives. Itd be absolutely inappropriate and uncalled for but God do I love a dramatic slap to the face in the heat of emotion. Hard disagree with this weirdo that Joyce deserves to get her ass beat tho
This is getting really disgusting and disturbing.
Why is it disgusting and disturbing to be entertained by characters slapping each other?
It means you’re evil, sorry. I don’t make the rules.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73OdOTAnZdE
Behold, history’s greatest monster.
I love the part where he’s just slapping an entire line of cops who showed up for no reason.
Well, yeah. They’re supposed to have a warrant or exigent circumstances before entering private property uninvited. Showing up for no reason deserves a good slapping.
* Hopefully-unnecessary disclaimer: This would probably be a bad idea, don’t do it.
You should definitely avoid any soap operas or really any kinda media with drama then.
ohhhh NOOOOOOOOO PEOPLE ARE ENTERTAINED BY THE IDEA OF SOAP OPERA ANTICS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SOAP OPERA WEBCOMIC’S SOAP OPERA PLOT. IT’S A MORAL OUTRAGE, ACTUALLY.
Guys learn how to quit while you’re ahead, jesus
Nonsense! In for a penny, in for the whole damn leg, why stop at the foot? XD
So many people here are feeling awful for Becky cuz of her feelings for Joyce and I’m just over here thinking “Just cuz you kissed her and had feelings never meant she was attracted to YOU, the person she see’s as a sister”
I am also having a hard time feeling tooooo bad for Becky because Becky won the partner lottery and got Dina who is #Thebestgirl and she’s pining over Madam Mac’ncheese…(But I am also AroAce so like when it comes to matters of romance like ignore me)
Anywho this is the delicious drama I crave
You’re correct, don’t worry about being aroace and maybe missing something, I think you’re just being more levelheaded than most people here.
I’m just finding it hard to empathize with the thought that since Becky liked her, it’s the worst thing ever that Joyce didn’t like her romantically back ya know? Joyce is so new to being into anyone romantically let alone girls.
…..That and Joyce IMO kinda sucks and I woulda stuffed her in a closet long ago for being so friggen annoying (as a person, not as a character, as someone who doesn’t actually have to deal with Joyce during her fundie period and got to watch everyone else suffer, it’s friggen fantastic)
You certainly aren’t alone in struggling to empathize with some of this. I’m also aromantic, and some things alloromantics take in stride seem utterly insane to me. I get that they probably make sense with the context of romantic attraction and the related feelings of heartbreak and such, but still…
Heartbreak is both an ordinary thing most people go through and just need to deal with, and something so intensely painful that if you’d never heard about it you wouldn’t believe it’s survivable.
Glad my brain decided to opt out of that for me then! Sounds like a hellava time and I got enough issues!
Likewise. There are moments I’d like to experience it, just to know what it’s like, then I remember stuff like… well, the current strip illustrates things well.
My brain does some questionable things, but in this, I think it made the right choice.
Yeah, I’m overall quite thankful to be aro when I see stuff like this. Literally the only thing I’d change about me being aromantic is figuring it out earlier so I didn’t have to go through two romantic relationships (one lasting six years) to figure it out.
Six years? Ouch… Hope at least it was a pleasant friendship regardless of other stuff?
I can’t help but suspect it’s actually easier for us aroace types than for aro-not-ace types (aroallo, I guess?); at least when I grew up, there were pretty nasty stereotypes about people who wanted sex but had no interest in love.
Then again, even with grudging increased acceptance of premarital hanky-panky, society appeared to consider sex to be a sin barely absolved by love, so…
It was very complicated, and the break up itself was very painful, but yes, there were good times, and we are friends now despite the painful past.
While I wouldn’t make any claims about whether it’s harder to be aroace or aroallo, I can certainly confirm that the stereotypes and assumptions about sex outside of romantic love can be pretty hurtful. Thankfully, I tend to spend a lot of time in the furry fandom, which is far, far more sex-positive than the general populace, so that helps a lot.
as stan says in south park “people think heart break isnt real, but it is, my chest physically hurts”
You’re not wrong, but the thing where Becky kissed Joyce and she didn’t reciprocate was because, at the time, Joyce still said she wasn’t interested. But presumably to them both, Joyce wasn’t into any girls. Now, in seeing her making out with Dorothy just means that she didn’t turn down Becky because she was straight, she just turned down Becky, specifically. And Becky was/possible still is in love with Joyce, so it’s hard for her to deal with.
You can call it childish, but all the characters are college kids, they are very childish.
Also I looked up a bunch of Becky strips while typing this and:
It’s like poetry, they rhyme
Naw I don’t think it’s childish, I just can’t get pining over the Kraft Dinner of women when Becky is currently enjoying prime rib lol.
Point of order: Dorothy is the Kraft Dinner of women. It’s on her packaging.
Fair enough, then Joyce is the Chicken fingers of women?
Chicken fingers with the hottest, reddest, most uniformly textured sauce possible (the sauce is the inability to refrain from putting her foot in her mouth)
Relevant strip, in case anyone’s trying to figure out why that sounds familiar:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2025/comic/book-15/03-me-and-who-you-say-i-was-yesterday/texture/
Then again… I seem to remember a trend for wearing t-shirts depicting your loved one?
I’m just sad that they got interrupted by Becky so I can’t make a joke about Dorothy being Joyce’s favorite thing to eat.
I’m neither aro nor ace and I think it was weird as fuck that Becky’s feelings were centered on this by ANYONE EVER, including Joyce and Dorothy.
There’s a significant difference between “think about how your new relationship might interact with a friend’s preexisting (and unwanted) issues” and “don’t have that relationship because your already-in-a-relationship friend might be sad”. I’m hoping most people concerned about Becky’s response were closer to the former.
Judging from the general reponse to Joyrothy in the comments, I think your hope is unfounded.
there is the greater context of the characters histories and the current living situation that directs us to this drama.
1 dotty and becky are roommates, and starting a relationship with your roommate best friend is a reason to be concerned about their reaction. added concern when you are aware they have unfullfilled romantic feelings for said best friend.
2. becky is joyces sister(in joyces eyes), whos romantic advances she rebuffed, but is aware are still unresolved in becky’s heart. yes becky loves and is in love with dina and has hit the confirmed jackpot with her. but that has not resolved becky’s feelings towards joyce, its been 4 months, these things take time.
3 human emotions are not transactional nor proportional, it is natural to be concerned about how your actions will effect others, and it is natural for those feelings to be lost in the moment of a more powerful emotion. it is normal for becky to have feelings about this, she has every right to have feelings here, she was only able to move on with dina because she had convinced herself the reason joyce didnt reciprocate the feeling was “not into women” and now she is confronted with the reality that love doesnt really care, the heart will go for what it wants when it wants whether or not those feelings are in line with internal or external expectations.
now these views are from a reletively hopeless romantic for whom the opposite sex definately is the perferred target of their heart, but i wil never say i’d never have sex with the same sex as me cause i do not know how my heart will react in the future to new people and experiences. but i am also the type for whom the desire to have sex with someone comes only with the desire to share with them their love for me in that manner.
I swear I don’t have a Patreon subscription.
I think I’ve actually come around to being pissed off at everyone in the room right now. Maybe that’s for the best. All these bongos deserve each other. I wanna go back to seeing what Asma is doing. She’s actually cool.
“The horseriding dream is the gayest one” yeah obviously, for them to be an awesome lesbian couple there needs to be an evil and intimidating horse.
Oh this hurts
So many feelings in Becky’s panels, all her efforts to try to remain important to Joyce failing
Becky is in a losing battle with the ship of Theseus like idea of reality she has and here Joyce changes another piece of the ship
TECHNICALLY Dorothy just took herself out of running for ‘Best friend” since she is Girlfriend now, which makes Becky Best Friend…?
I don’t think this helps-
It’s something!
Idk, my wife is my best friend.
Nah, you can be best friends with your partner (and in fact I highly recommend it!) also it’s fine to have more than one Best Friend!
So not wanting to date someone means they’re completely unimportant to you? Like… Joyce has done a lot for Becky. Joyce took her in when she was homeless. Joyce hopped on a motorcycle to chase Becky down to save her despite her dad having a gun.
She all but tossed aside her religious programming in the name of supporting Becky: https://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/pit/
To quote that comic: “Becky, you’re my best friend. Pit you against anything else in my life, you will win every time.”
I know she’s being tactless and saying some painful words here, but does everything Joyce has done for her best friend seriously mean NOTHING just because she loves Becky as a platonic friend/sister, not a romantic partner?
I know I’m aromantic, but is heartbreak really so painful that it erases everything the person has said and done, turning them into nothing but a monster for horrendous sin of not loving you back? That just seems so messed up.
That’s how it often seems to work, yes. Relationships that aren’t romantic and/or sexual are meaningless, and will naturally be ended for that reason and replaced with naked times and Valentimes. It’s depressing or those of us uninterested in either or both.
Ugh… Amatonormativity is painfully depressing at times. I suppose these occasional forays outside my bubble of more progressive people are healthy, but wow, it can be exhausting.
I think it’s overblown to chalk an unhealthy relationship dynamic solely up to “amatonormativity”.
Mainstream media and social norms are full of contradictions, especially when it comes to depicting healthy relationships. For all that there’s plenty of problematic notions that one’s partner should be the only thing that matters, there’s also plenty of depictions of couples who disappear into relationships as a bad thing, particularly if the viewpoint character is someone outside said relationship.
While isolation from friends and family is absolutely a tactic abusers use, sometimes when it happens there isn’t malicious intent, just…people being bad at being people. Losing touch with friends because you only have 1 day a week for socializing and you choose to spend it solely with your SO isn’t a result of any sort of malicious intent, it’s mostly just short-term thinking writ large.
I think it’s overblown to chalk an unhealthy relationship dynamic solely up to “amatonormativity”.
That’s not what either anonymsly or Ludaire were doing, though. They were talking about a very specific phenomenon, which is indeed textbook amatonormativity.
And, being blunt, you appear to be conflating amatonormativity with toxic monogamy? They’re not the same thing. Amatonormativity says nothing about the quality of any given romantic relationship. It’s a societal pressure put on both single people and aromantic people, though like all -normativities, it does also do damage to everyone:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amatonormativity
(Heteronormativity doesn’t just impact gay people or bi people, it also impacts straight people. Amatonormativity likewise also impacts alloromantic people. Heteronormativity works in concert with toxic masculinity to tell straight men that they’re not “real” mean or “really” straight if they have platonic friendships with women; amatonormativity is the societal force telling you there’s something wrong with valuing or otherwise prioritizing a friendship over a romantic relationship, it tells you you’re lying to yourself about being happy when you’re single, so on and so forth.)
Oh, here’s probably the single best example of unconscious amatonormativity:
“Love is what makes us human.”
Bingo. See also: “Becky’s heartbreak is so human.” I honestly don’t think people realize how insane and alien something like heartbreak or falling in love can be to an aromantic person, yet we’re still human.
I also don’t think they realize how damaging it is to treat Joe’s non-monogamous expression of love as artificial, settling, hiding trauma, or whatever while treating Becky’s feelings here as the pinnacle of humanity.
As someone who’s not aro- or ace but was single until age 33, I’m well aware of how the societal pressure to “find that special someone” works, thanks. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
My comment was about how anonymsly & ludaire were making toxic monogamy out to be the norm for folks in a relationship when so often friends drifting apart when one of them is in a relationship has way more to do with people being imperfect beings who are bad at communication.
Um… Are you sure you understand what amatonormativity means? Because the social norms described by it 110% contribute to toxically monogamous behavior.
We’re not saying it’s “normal” for people to behave this way. We’re saying society’s pressure to see a monogamous romantic relationship as the end-all-be-all of life leads to the behaviors.
And yes, the fact that non-romantic relationships are almost always the thing lost when people are being imperfect and bad at communication (instead of it being more even and contextual) is also an aspect of amatonormativity. It’s not as serious as the more toxic and abusive behaviors caused by it, but just like racism can range from subtle microaggressions to slavery, amatonormativity covers a wide range of behaviors.
Goddamn it, my response got eaten.
The cliffs’s notes:
1) I don’t think society in general holds up “abandon your friends for romance” as much as it might appear to somone who doesn’t find romance appealing.
2) I expressed myself poorly. What I meant by “people are bad at being people” is more that a lot of friendships that were thought lost to romance probably would have died off even without one party getting in a relationship. Lord knows it happened to me often.
3) What I’ve figured out after two+ years of dating my perfect person is this: if I prioritize seeing her above my friends, it’s not because society tells me to, and it’s not because I want to bone down. It’s because I have never met another person, including two brothers and a best friend of more than 30 years, who I enjoy spending time with as much as her. Near as I can tell, that’s love.
1. Um…this is like saying that straight relationships aren’t as dominant in media as it might seem if you’re gay. People in underrepresented groups generally have a more accurate idea of how dominant certain narratives are, not a less accurate view.
2. “The friendship probably would have died anyway” is a pretty terrible reason to dismiss people’s concerns over a common reason their friendships have died…
3. Um…. Okay… Wow. Maybe it’s rude to say this, but this entire third point is a fish not seeing the water they’re swimming in. Like, “perfect person?” “Love” is wanting to spend time with one person more than anyone else? Really? You’re expressing almost textbook examples of amatonormative thinking and saying it’s not amatonormative because society “didn’t tell you to.” Laying your foundational beliefs rather than obliquely telling you to do things is exactly how things like heteronormativity and amatonormativity work.
Can I hop in with something completely unrelated? Its always a little funny seen you, Li, get into long comment threads with rogue 7, and now adding Ludaire into the mix. Bc it looks like Danny having an hour long debate with the mirror, and that amuses me
Danny is arguing with himself but at least he’s having fun doing it! All the winky avatars.
This sounds awful to deal with, and has not been my experience at all. Replacing your friends with a singular partner sounds unhealthy and wildly unkind to those around you who love and have supported you.
I don’t know how common my situation (still lots of friends some of whom are married, or have children, or are single, or long-term dating, etc) is vs the situation you describe. I can say, however, that you don’t have to put up with that. It actually is a great idea for you to let go of people who treat you like you never mattered, and find people who keep their friends even in relationships.
it all happens on a spectrum and for some of us it can happen multiple ways throughout their life. my self, i ahve had friend groups disolve due to romantic couplings within and without the friend circle, but i have also had friend groups disolve for the simple reality of not having the time to be with one another. yet my current circle have been with me for 22 years, some have kids some are single by choice, some single by circumstance, some childless by choice others childless without choice.
I think Becky’s ideas are toxic but this could be what finally gets her over this emotional hump so to speak
I’d say she values Joyce but her low sense of self worth and Joyce being this huge connection to her past, maybe the last true connection makes it messy for her
Plus you gotta remember that what Becky longs for was a past that was deeply traditional, monogamous relationships being the top of the hierarchy. She’s struggling with understanding emotionally that Joyce still sees her as important, even if it’s platonic
I also hope that this experience, however painful, does lead to a lot of growth for Becky. There’s certainly potential for it.
again emotions are not transactional, just because joyce has doen things and been there for becky ove rthe previous 4 months, and has rejected becky’s advances but that doesnt mean beckys feeling for joyce just get turned off, nor does it mean she can’t have feelings about the situation. nothing toxic about it, it is natural for her to have feelings. it can lead to her having toxic feelings, and taking actions that are toxic, but there is nothing toxic inherent to her reaction
It is really messed up. All the things Joyce has done for Becky, and now we have people in the comments hoping Becky physically assaults her.
Yeah… I wonder if people have just forgotten about everything else these three have been through or if they really believe that one instance of cheating plus a bit of tactless flirting making heartbreak worse is truly so evil that it eclipses everything else good Dorothy and Joyce have done.
Reminds me of the icarly reboot where Freddy brings up Carly saying something along the lines of “in a million years you’ll never be more than a friend” when in actuality she said something like “our friendship is one of the most important in my life” and relents that apparently their friendship was only ever seen as a consolation prize.
I’m allo and always thought dumping friends over unreciprocated feelings was stupid, too. Why would I date someone I wouldn’t wanna be friends with? Either way, I just want to enjoy this lovely person’s company. I’ll form a crush on someone else if they’re not interested in that.
Becky’s seemed like she’s been feeling abandoned even as a friend lately though, so it’s probably more complicated than romantic rejection only.
Just to add, I don’t agree with Becky, I’m just focusing on what she believes
Thank you for the clarification.
To add a similar clarification, I’m not criticizing you, and while I have my issues with Becky, my main issue is really with the social pressures that have lead Becky to think this way, not the woman herself.
Never seen one ship have this much collateral damage. Joe, Walky, Becky, and whatever domino get s hit by the wrong person seeing the newspaper outside the group.
Somehow out there A couple who hasn’t even interacted with this group breaks up over the newspaper.
It retroactively turned the two of us aroace! Reaver and I were destined to have a romance for the ages, but thanks to Joyce and Dorothy, it can never be.
Possibly for the best, really. I’d never find the time.
I mean, Helen’s marriage to Paris of Troy started a war. I think that’s got these two beat by a little.
True but that was over a thousand ships.
I mean, that’s just your average shipper.
I am seriously disliking Joyce today. You are making Becky sadder how funking dare you.
What, did you want her to lie?
Leaving it at “since yesterday” would not be lying, and anything beyond that is unnecessary and would obviously only hurt Becky more. See how Joyce and Dorothy negotiate themselves up from one day to six months. That’s going to hurt.
Right. Replace all the candor with “Looking back, it was obviously building for awhile, but we were both in complete denial.” And then you can talk about that other stuff later.
This leaves out the denial part and frames it as though they were both consciously aware of it all along.
Yup. Joyce has been indulging in this kind of revisionism for a while but it seems Dorothy is now as well.
But we’ve been hearing from the comments that concealing feelings from your friends is morally equivalent to lying to them, so shouldn’t they be as complete as possible in answering Becky’s question to avoid any possibility of that?
I think if that’s the intention then the scenario thejeff posits would be enough. But that’s not what they’re doing. What they’re doing is getting carried away and giving the impression they’ve been courting for half a year.
All three of them have feelings. It’s actually fine for them to discuss their own while answering to Becky’s. Their honest answer might hurt her, but it’s not a thing they’re doing TO her, it’s just an unfortunate fact of life.
Sometimes things hurt. Sometimes people you like don’t like you back. Becky’s feelings aren’t Joyce’s fault, they’re just about Joyce. Not the same thing.
Yes, thank you.
I’m worried about this whole thing causing trouble for Becky and Dinah. As fixated as Becky has been on Joyce for as long as she has, I think one of the only reasons she was able to go as hard on the Dinah relationship as she did was because Joyce was straight and therefore there could never be anything between them no matter what. Now that she knows Joyce CAN be into other girls sexually and romantically, there’s a possibility that Dinah may start to feel more like a consolation prize to her.
“complete candor” is not usually the best way to go in this sort of situation.
I’m probably the only one here: but while I do think Joyce isn’t all that tactful here, all she does is give an honest answer to a question. And while I understand why Becky is hurt, the truth is that she hasn’t been that supportive of a friend over the last year either. (Including here, at the moment she discovers the forced outing).
Final thought: the reactions to the last few strip earily remind me of reactions to people with autism in rl. Very accepting in theory, but when it comes down to it that all falls away. You this especially around people that are quite good at masking.
Not directly responding to a new idea (Joe), the joke at the wrong time (Walky), the answer with to much honesty (Becky); I don’t know if the narrative is written with the thought of autism in mind, but it fits perfectly. And how easy we are blaming tactless behavior again. (And no, people with autism do not have a get out of jail card to be mean).
Anyway: the person I feel sorry for is Dina, for obvious reasons.
Joyce not giving an immediate reaction
I can’t scroll within a comment on my telephone: hence the last sentence not being deleted.
You’re not the only one. While Dorothy and Joyce aren’t being as diplomatic as they could be, I do think some of the responses to the comic are a bit over the top.
Yes, Becky is hurt. Yes, some of Joyce and Dorothy’s words are making the pain worse (though I question a little whether it would actually be better to either withhold those details or tell her at a later time). However, Becky has said and done some very shitty things in an attempt to push Dorothy away and separate her from Joyce. In doing so, Becky has also been actively maintaining and cultivating her feelings of possessiveness in a very toxic manner.
I have sympathy for Becky, yes, but I also have plenty of sympathy for Joyce and Dorothy.
All of my friends have learned to deal with the fact that I will say fucked up shit without actually realizing I’ve been a dickbutt, and I have told them, repeatedly, to please be honest with me and tell me when I am being a dingus, because otherwise I won’t realize and most importantly, won’t improve.
It’s actually very important for a friend to tell you when you’re being a dickbutt. That’s part of the job. If you don’t call your friends out on being dickbutts, you’re doing them a disservice.
It’s not really an honest answer though, since she’s romanticizing her entire whole relationship with Dorothy back to the beginning, which at the very least, she was completely in denial about until a couple days ago.
What Becky’s hearing here is “Yeah, I’ve been bi for Dorothy since I met her. Throughout your entire coming out experience and all the trauma involved. And I hid it from you the whole time.”
You’re definitely not the only one. The commentariat is just giving Joyce & Dorothy no slack whatsoever. Yesterday, they were castigating them for hiding things from Becky, now they’re frothing at the mouth to the point of calling for physical violence because they didn’t hide things from Becky.
And using behaviors consistent with being autistic as proof of how horrible they’re being while knowing that Joyce is canonically “probably” autistic. But apparently pointing that out is more abelist that demonizing autistic traits is.
It’s all there, black and white, clear as crystal! (…)you get nothing! You lose! Good day, sir!
From The World of John Wick: Dina.
I’m missing some context on how Becky is involved here at all, let alone why she would be sad.
I assume 13 others are typing at the same time as me, but basically Becky might have lingering romantic feelings about Joyce and might be feeling dejected because Joyce turned her down but then wound up getting gay with Dorothy, who Becky has been pretty jealous of for a while.
Ok ok so, as much as these girls dont deserve ANYONE in their corner right now I will say this
Becky isnt entitled to Joyce. Joyce could find exclusively girls attractive and never find becky attractive because she never developed those feelings.
So as much as these might be the worst fictional lesbians in history, becky has to get over this one way or another
There is so much toxic Yuri out there that o have to tell you, these two don’t even make the ratings.
This.
“The worst fictional lesbians in history” they’re not lesbians either but like jfc if you really think this is “the worst” I have to assume your queer media diet is limited to kids’ cartoons. And apparently you haven’t even seen She-Ra.
“They not only cheated, but they made someone’s heartbreak worse? By the gods, they’re the most evil people in all of history!”
– Some people who are definitely okay and don’t have any issues with their priorities at all. (/s)
Shit, if you hold Amity’s early appearances against her I think Lumity comes off worse. I mean, Amity nearly got Luz dissected by Principle Bump that one time.
Hell, no one here’s even related to each other. (See: to many anime and manga to list)
Of course she has to get over it, but can she have a moment to be upset first?
They’re also framing their candor in a way that makes it seem like it’s been going on longer than it really has and that they’ve been hiding it from Becky all along. Even back to “the first moment I saw you”. Which just makes it worse.
Why is “entitled” being brought into this, as a reply to anything I said?
1) Refusing to confront her trauma
2) Lingering feelings for Joyce.
The strip is titled a play on adoration methinks.
Becky dealt with her feelings that Joyce rejected her because Joyce is straight. She never dealt with her feelings that Joyce rejected her for other reasons. It’s not a matter of whether Becky’s involved, or whether she’s entitled to certain feelings. It’s just pain that Becky’s ignored or been in denial of (because Becky’s good at that) coming home to roost. Joyce and Dorothy walked in on her while she was just feeling her feelings.
She was just feeling her feelings in Joyce’s room.
Damn that’s really cool, it must be hard to read a whole comic with your eyes closed. How long you been working on that party trick?
Girls, you’re not helping your case!
Haven’t been able to read DoA for a few days website wouldn’t load when I normally check it, which is within an hour of updating.
I understand why I haven’t been able to now, ohmygod Becky will you be O.K.?
It was completely down for a while yesterday
DOROTHY AND JOYCE:
Becky, are you OK?
Will you tell us that you’re OK?
There’s an alt-text in the window
Says we struck you – a (bisexual) crescendo, Becky
You came into our dormitory
Saw us in the front page story
Then we ran into the bedroom
You were struck down
It was your doom
OW!
YOU’VE BEEN HIT BY
YOU’VE BEEN STRUCK BY
NOT-SO-SMOOOOOTH CRIMINALS
Gay
And, for once, not in a good way.
I feel I should clarify: I don’t hate them for this. They’re just getting so blinded by love, as their confession progresses, that they’ve become almost oblivious to Becky.
…but I do hope they realise, afterward, how their words made Becky feel.
I’m curious about the comments in an alternate universe where they stopped at panel 1. Would there be a bunch of people complaining about Joyce and Dorothy hiding all of the romantic tension and other build up that lead to their kiss yesterday? Would they say that they’re being dishonest by not giving the full disclosure? Would some of those people be the same people complaining about this lack of tact?
I’m also curious whether it would lead to a different response from Becky in the next comic or not.
I honestly don’t think there’s a way these two “win” in this conversation. Either you’re honest and rip the full band-aid off or you hold some of it back, potentially causing more pain down the road. Both suck.
This is made even worse because in the context of an extremely amatonormative society causing heartbreak makes you among the worst villains imaginable (both in the spurned person’s eyes and often in the eyes of onlookers), and almost nothing you can do can change it.
I love your whole comment and agree entirely.
Can’t speak for others, but I think I would’ve been disappointed if Joyce missed the opportunity to say something extremely unwise.
I don’t think this kind of “honesty” is really ripping the band-aid off, since what it leaves out is that they were completely in denial for most of what they’re confessing.
Stopping after Dorothy’s first line in panel 3 might have been better. That lets Becky tie it to Dorothy being so messed up that night.
Yes, they absolutely would. The comments will find any excuse to rip Joyrothy to shreds. There is no way for them to win.
Just taking a moment to digest Dorothy and Joyce’s dispositions so far:
– Dorothy is still very much struggling against being In Love with Joyce
– Joyce is very much elated at the idea that the person she loves is Dorothy and wants this to be her One True Love. It will be interesting to see how this is handled once there’s no one to tell anymore.
Joyce, Dorothy, the first rule of holes? Stop digging.
Also, stop twisting the knife. Dang.
But they’re not in a hole, they’re in luuuuuuuuuv
Dina is going to kick the living shit (vocally only of course) out of both of them for making her companion feel that way. And then, privately will let Becky know that she understands completely about Becky’s long time feelings about Joyce and ask her not to beel bad or guilty about her feelings, which she can’t really, nor shouldn’t, feel guilty about, because she (Dina) understands.
Because Dina is a raptor and impervious and perfect.
Which Becky will of course misinterpret, because her whole life she’s been groomed to think any kind of good thing is actually bad.
Yeah, I think Dina’s brand of frank honesty is exactly what Becky needs right now.
I think that might be the one thing that could actually make me dislike Dina. Joyrothy have done nothing to Becky that merits an asskicking. No matter what her feelings are, Becky does not get veto power over her friend’s love life.
Girls decided they weren’t deep enough in trouble and grabbed some shovels.
That was a great answer to the question!
At first.
The first answer was frank and honest – and is absolutely true in so far as the two of them RECOGNIZING their attraction for each other. And that is what Becky needed to hear in the moment.
And then, as expected, they ruined it by expounding on what they realized about themselves, and gave Becky the impression that she just caught them in a massive lie. That they went into their relationships with Joe and Walky under false pretenses. That she lied to Becky’s face when she ran away and came to Joyce because she thought she was her friend (she is, absolutely – but in this emotionally charged moment, Becky’s not going to see it that way).
And this being Joyce and Dorothy, that’s exactly how I expected this conversation to go down.
I just wanna hug Becky so bad right now. 🙁
30 minutes later, Dorothy and Joyce are still listing out instances of their gayness for each other. Becky has already gone to bed.
If she sleeps in this dorm room instead of going back to her own, she can wake up to find them still going.
Wait, is this the first we hear about Joyce actually seeing the photos Dorothy texted her, and not just Joe? I feel like that’s being skimmed over here.
I think it might be the first acknowledgement that Joyce did see the picture. I think Dorothy might have asked Joe “Do you think she saw it?” but I don’t think Joe answered one way or the other.
It was mentioned a few days ago. Joyce saw it.
No. It was a thing that happened on-panel, and there were a couple of strips devoted to Joyce’s very heterosexual reaction to it.
I’d forgotten about this strip. Thanks for sharing it. Especially because Jennifer is honestly hilarious in it and the next few, which is a welcome reprieve from today’s angst.
it’s kinda amusing to see a comment section so perfectly split between wanting either Joyce&Dot or Becky to be perfect analytical robots who’s emotions are determent entirely by perfect if/then statements and not like, their personal history or anything
like hey you can have sympathy for Becky simply for being in a weird spot, already struggling with ideas of being replaced ontop of now finding out the person she ran away for, her first love who she confessed to 4 months ago, does have the capacity to love another woman, just not her. Because even though Becky is already dating again and very happy in that relationship, these are still fairly recent emotions she was possibly still processing.
And also feel sympathetic for Joyce and Dot who similarly are dealing with a ton of emotions because they only recently have started opening up about their closeted feelings and are now having trouble regulating said emotions because so much of the last 6 months is very suddenly being reframed to them in this new light.
I think a lot of where people lean one way or another comes down to personal experiences. Many have mainly had experience being in Becky’s shoes, so their hearts go out to her and they see Dorothy and Joyce as borderline villains since they’re making the heartbreak worse.
I’m sort of on the opposite side, since I’ve had to go through the very painful task of telling someone I loved them but not romantically. So I really feel for Joyce, as she’s having to navigate a rather violent aftershock of that conversation which is going to cause serious pain to someone she cares deeply for.
I’ve also had relationships sabotaged by overly possessive romantic partners, which is something Becky has done, and even though it hasn’t caused lasting harm in this comic (and was mostly played for laughs), it’s still spoiled me towards her.
Still, I am trying to understand Becky’s feelings and empathize with her as best I can when I’m aromantic so heartbreak is something I can’t personally feel. That’s part of why I’m bothering to read comments, as seeing various perspectives can help with that understanding (even if some of these takes seem like they belong on a subreddit like r/arethestraightsokay but for alloromantic people).
I absolutely feel sympathetic to both sides here, but my comments are much more towards defending Joyrothy because the comments have been so vicious towards them. I haven’t seen anyone calling for physical violence towards Becky yet.
I completely understand how Becky feels. I’ve been in situations very like hers, and I know that pain. I do think it would have been healthier for all three of them if she had not chosen to confront them about it, but I understand why she did. I also understand why Joyce & Dorothy answered her question the way they did and that it wasn’t out of malice. I love all three of these characters and it hurts to see them hurting.
I dislike Jorothy for cheating on their boyfriends, the way they broke up and just the way they’ve behaved in this recent arc has turned me away from them entirely.
However while i understand the heartbreak Becky is feeling is legitimate I also recognize that those feelings are coming from within and Joyce and Dorothy haven’t wronged her in any way by being in love.
This is much more of the kind of mess I had been hoping for from this arc, and I can’t help but feel annoyed that we’re only getting it from people who were not involved in the relationships at play.
I mean, it makes sense. Joe’s never been all that emotionally intelligent, and only recently and reluctantly admitted that he had romantic feelings towards Joyce rather than the pure sexual lust that he showed towards… pretty much everyone up to that point, so it makes sense that he wouldn’t be overly emotional about them breaking up, and Walky’s… well, Walky. While he seems to enjoy the physical side of the relationships, he doesn’t really seem to UNDERSTAND the ins and outs of them yet, reacting with more of a “Whelp, here we go again,” attitude rather than the heartbreak that you’d expect from it. Granted, he did seem to be genuinely broken up about losing Lucy – but that was a rare case where how things played out was him doing her wrong in such a way that he couldn’t help but recognize it. His most recent fling with Dorothy was very much a, “Whelp, easy come, easy go,” sort of thing.
Becky, on the other hand, wears her emotions on her sleeve, already saw Dorothy as something of a friendly rival, almost certainly still has romantic feelings for Joyce, AND is in an emotionally vulnerable spot right now what with the discussions on fluid sexuality throwing her for a serious loop. Of all the characters involved, it only made sense for this train wreck to happen with Becky – and even then, it had to be ONLY Becky there since any of the others would be able to sit her down and explain that neither Joyce nor Dorothy are really capable of keeping this sort of thing clandestine simply because of how their personalities work.
I’m really hoping that Dina shows up and lays all of this out for her sooner rather than later, if only for the fact that it’s the least emotional and most obviously autistic member of the group laying all of this out to the one that is usually the most emotionally intelligent. That and I identify strongly with Dina, and that’s what I would be doing in that situation.
“Joe’s never been all that emotionally intelligent” is a wild thing to say after he figured out both Dorothy’s attraction to Joyce & vice versa before either of them did, went to talk to Dorothy about it in a pretty patient way, and then after getting cheated on calmly suggested that maybe Joyce could date them both if she wanted, no pressure though. Like that’s almost too much emotional intelligence for me. That’s where I would’ve liked just a bit more mess.
I also don’t agree with your read on Walky re: relationships. His reaction to breakups, has, usually, been a form of self-loathing.
With Lucy he didn’t even GET to “the physical side”, and as you note it’s the one that he arguably shows the most open emotions about. He recognized that he messed up – and also multiple times throughout worried about & asked for advice about his relationship & how it was progressing. Because yeah, he’s absolutely not emotionally intelligent, but he does care!
With Dorothy specifically it was about him not being good enough for her anyways, because he really puts her on a pedestal – and he still feels that way to an extend with their latest relationship!
Amber & him actually mostly had a strong emotional connection (& made out a few times) and then a shared trauma (grief about Mike) made them clash in a way that ended things. Something that Walky does express regret about later (specifically not being able to support Amber). Basically I think Walky has pretty low self-esteem, and while I do think (hope?) this’ll come up again later but there is plenty that could’ve happened during the breakup too. Walky’s reaction makes sense as is stands, it’s just a little disappointing to get 2 punchlines if you actually care about the character & ways he could possibly develop. Like, I’d really like Walky to stand up for himself. Some of his bigger moments re: character development have been about standing up to other people /for/ people he cares about – he should include himself in that.
And I’m also really enjoying this bit with Becky, to be clear. I just also wish it all could’ve been that good!
Yeah, I can’t really read either of the boys as not emotionally involved in these relationships or that as really driving their reactions. Instead both of them seem willing to put what they want aside for their partners. Neither lets the cheating bother them – Joe’s explicitly said he doesn’t think he has the right to be jealous and Walky’s long talked about he’s not good enough for Dorothy. Joe’s reaction was to offer poly as a way to not lose Joyce completely. Walky’s to just let Dorothy without even showing her that it bothered him and then go drown his sorrows in nuggets.
As charitably as possible, I don’t think you’re reading the same comic strip as the rest of us if your take on Joe is that untethered from both the text and the subtext.
Well, I think Becky is involved with the relationships at play; it’s just not in a healthy way. Her continued possessiveness towards Joyce and related animosity towards Dorothy basically forces the two of them to consider her as an important factor since both consider her a friend and thus, they aren’t willing to just cut her out of their lives to end the toxic possessiveness. This dynamic was played for laughs most of the time, but this is one of the big costs even if it never seriously upset Dorothy or Joyce. It makes her a central part of their relationship, whatever form it might take. It’s also probably a big part of the reason why her attachment to Joyce is still so strong; she’s sort of been maintaining it even though she was given a firm “no” quite a while ago and has another relationship she’s in.
This has consistently been one of the biggest flaws she has as a character, and it’s a key part of this whole scene. If Becky didn’t have this hyper possessive attitude towards Joyce or had dropped it much, much earlier, then Becky wouldn’t be on their radar, and any hurt over finding out about this would be minimal.
Not that I’m blaming her for the hurt she’s feeling right now. Honestly, thinking more deeply about the reason why she has this position in this scene gives me a bit more empathy for her. Her past behavior is starting to feel less like a grating and occasionally upsetting quirk to being a tragic flaw I can understand a little, even as I hope she grows out of it.
Becky is possessive of Joyce because she is quite literally the only thing she has left of her old life.
Are you adding additional context for why Becky feels and acts this way or are you trying to justify the behavior as okay for that reason?
I don’t think it’s ok necessarily but I think too many people are critiquing the behavior without acknowledging the place it comes from
That’s fair.
The only people just now discovering their long-time feelings for each other are Joyce and Dorothy. It’s been common knowledge to all the dorm and a running gag in the strip. What’s new (and sad) for Becky is that this romance is now active and open, and hits her right in her long love for Joyce.
Mourning for what could have been is ultimately healthy and cleansing, but you can sure empathize with her pain.
In fact, here’s Becky being read into the status quo …
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/somebody/
And then there’s the trail not taken,
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2015/comic/book-5/02-threes-a-crowd/foranybody/
Sometimes people are hurt even though nobody has done anything wrong, and I think this Dorothy-Joyce-Becky situation is one of those. I don’t think Dorothy and Joyce are really doing anything wrong here, and nor is Becky (so far).
It’s just unfair to Becky really
I think Joe was the most hurt here and even then none of the hurt was intentional
Not to mention Becky is in a loving relationship now so it worked out
It was always going to be a one sided love with Joyce
Dotty meant it, lets be real.
“Intentional” here can mean “I did this intentionally to hurt you” or “I did this knowing you’d be hurt.”
Mike is one. Joyce is the other.
Ouch
I feel for Becky, but ohhh panel 5 is so heartbreakingly sweet to me…
See, it’s the opposite to me — go back and look at their first meetings, it’s practically delusional on Joyce’s part.
Completely indicative of how her entire forebrain has been replaced by the Hallmark Movie script she’s using to justify her behavior over the last week or so.
Yep…
Props to the author, I don’t know if I’ve felt this very often in media. Maybe Scott Pilgrim if the Ramona relationship was better? “I’m happy for these guys but only if I don’t think too hard about it?”
Can’t agree. It may not have been literal love at first sight, but Joyce did get very attached to Dorothy very quickly, and calling her realizing in hindsight that part of the reason had been because of unrealized attraction/a budding crush ‘practically delusional’ feels ungenerous.
I don’t have any particular desire to be generous to these two, given their antics lately.
That said, I’m specifically calling “The first moment I saw you” as “practically delusional”. Certainly, they were fast friends and there were always hints of an underlying attraction, but IMHO it’s clear that “love at first sight” is a trope that Joyce is riding and not anything close to the reality of the situation.
Like, you can hear the Savage Garden soundtrack start up before the record-scratch of the panel shift back to Becky.
Cool you feel that way. I don’t. /shrug
Cool for you. Dunno why you felt the need to get the last word, but whatevs. /shrug
Because I thought you’d prefer some acknowledgment of your point over being ignored, mostly, but I guess next time I’ll let it lie.
It’s sweet, but it’s revisionist lol. Joyce did not fall in love for Dorothy at first sight.
Sure, but as I said to the other reply, she did get very attached very quickly and it makes sense to me that she’s realizing with the benefits of hindsight that attraction/a budding crush played a part in that. She also might not remember their exact first meeting and is pulling more from their encounter in Gender Studies class.
That’s great for her, but it’s not what she’s saying.
Not directly, but I think it’s what she’s trying to articulate (maybe even to herself) – that she’s been attracted to Dorothy from close to the start, even if she didn’t realize it at the time. She’s just saying it in a more romantic way, because she’s Joyce.
Tbf, joyce does tend to romanticize things. but even if walky was being an ass on it , it is amusing he ‘picked up’ on any underlying attraction
I also liked it! And a lot of the negativity seems nitpicky.
It feels like a reaction that would make more sense to me if Willis had, say, edited a fan wiki page to say “It is canonically true that Joyce fell in love with Dorothy at first sight.”
Rather than Joyce, always a romantic and at this moment especially lost in the sauce of, romanticizing the start of their relationship.
What about those of us who are reacting negatively to Joyce being especially lost in the sauce (as usual)? 😀
That’s totally fine! I am just talking about the “it definitely wasn’t the first time she saw Dorothy, here are my receipts” negativity specifically. 🙂
Huh. That was surprising easy to summarize.
I hope that once the rose-tinted glasses are taken off, Joyce realizes that it was probably more like “the time I stood up to my parents for you” as a more accurate reflection of the moment when she subconsciously fell for Dotty.
Because being quite honest, I think it’s weird to, essentially, retcon normal-ass human interaction as secretly being romantic. Standing up to your parents because they disapprove of the person it turns out you want to smooch? Romantic as *fuck*. Asking her “hey, are we on time for a hall meeting?” That’s just being a person, Joyce, that’s about as romantic as a dead stick.
Weird but pretty common for people involved to do retroactively.
I mean, I get it.
With my gf, I’ve definitely built up a little bit of a narrative about our first date. We matched on Hinge, but she and I live much further apart than the radii we had set. Later on we realized it’s because she was browsing while catsitting at her friend’s who lives about 20 minutes from me. We chatted, hit it off, and set a date at a coffee shop up by her. I didn’t quite realize how long it would take me until I actually looked up the trip time (door to door it’s roughly 2 and a half hours on the train for me, an hour and 20 minutes or so for her by car). The part I romanticize is that I always tell folks that I said to myself “wow, I’m really going to have to like this girl” when my actual thoughts during the trip were a bit more complicated.
I’m mostly grumping about this because A) it is visibly killing Becky and that sucks B) it makes Joyce look even more insanely codependent than she has been, already a pretty high bar and C) framing what is, again, “normal human interaction” as “the start of our epic love story” irks me because it…well, it just does. It’s shallow, braindead, dumb behavior, and as much as I know that’s the name of the comic, it doesn’t make me roll my eyes any less.
I’m honestly glad I DON’T have any delusions about my first date narrative with my nesting partner. “We got set up on a blind date by a mutual friend, who chaperoned us to a Chinese buffet because you didn’t want to date anyone and had to bail out early to go to a club meeting.” didn’t exactly have the doves and cherry blossoms.
Now, two dates in when I accidentally hit the perfect combo of hole in the wall but stellar restaurant + really great amateur production of a really great play, THAT was when we had the start of our epic love story. =P
A friend of mine got married last month. Great guy, his wife seems to be very nice from what little I’ve interacted with her.
On the wholeass website he put out for their wedding, there was obviously an “our story” section, and it started with a quote from him- “As soon as I saw her picture on Hinge I knew I wanted to talk with her!” and it’s just like…
“Our epic love story that we need to immortalize is….that we met on an app lol”
I shoulda done that. Complete with my future partner’s apparently deadpan “eh, he seems nice, but I’m not really looking to date right now” reaction when our mutual asked ’em about it afterwards.
Hey, that’s realistic and honest though. Nothing wrong with that!
I mean, it’s someone else’s love story. They can romanticize it however they want. I actually think it’s a little weird you’re so bothered by it when it affects you not at all.
Its weird and an extremely joyce thing to do. Romcom brain
I would say it’s probably between their first meeting and when Joyce asked Dorothy to dinner after finding out she was an atheist. There was probably some subconscious attraction at work for her to do that.
Okay, when I made that joke about Dorothy and Joyce being on a repeating cycle, I wasn’t expecting “getting so horny they forgot what they were doing” to happen in the middle of coming clean to Becky.
Someone needs to get a spray bottle for these two.
At the rate they’re going, I think we need to upgrade to fire hose.
NO restraint
People pointing out other facial expressions, and I’m just sitting here like the DiCaprio meme at the fuckin’ FOURTH PANEL LIP BITE.
Hell, it might be a DOUBLE lip bite, hard to tell with Dorothy at that angle.
What if they just leaned in for a smooch right there
It’d be so tonally dissonant l’d lose my shit laughing
(Blanket statement: Sorry when i typo comments, my phones keyboard is misscalibrated a little but i cant be fucked to buy a new phone)
Oh I do not think that’s what that is. Look at Joyce’s eyebrow. I think that is an “oof this is awkward” eyebrow.
*an “oof this is awkward lip bite”
I can honestly say I don’t think I’ve ever seen a lip bite intended to mean “this is awkward”, or at least not one I’ve registered as such. Is that a thing?
Nah it is a thing people do. Sometimes I’ll bite my lip when I’m feeling nervous or awkward. Not sure it’s a read I’d accept here though.
TIL
Seconding the nervous lip bite crew.
That said, DOROTHY is also much more likely to be doing the “ooh, this is awkward” thing where you suck your lips in but don’t bite either of ’em.
It’s like one of those Julius Ceasar knife holders, but of Becky. Poor girl 🙁
Wow I can’t believe beckys getting so mad, look how angry she is with these two. Absolutely fuming
Incel! Incel! She’s an incel! There’s definitely no baggage in using this kind of language to describe a lesbian!
The correct term is sadpphic
I thought that was when you write a story about Goku being depressed.
This is why we had a mini-arc about how Becky is uncomfortable with people changing their labels.
What was the exact moment? The realization that Dorothy had become a navigation star for Joyce? Maybe at the fountain? Some switch was flipped and there she is, standing up to the colossus of her whole religious family upbringing for what promises to be a special friendship.
Backing up a couple days that look in panel three
While I definitely didn’t see this coming at the time, that whole scene was very moving to me.
Yeah, this is the exact strip where I started shipping Joyorthy. That third panel hit me in a very specific way.
I would say it was some time before this strip. Something gave her the courage and the interest to overcome her fear of Dorothy’s atheism. Willis has even referred to this as Joyce asking Dorothy on a date.
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/05-media-rumble/boo/
Have fun at the con! You’ll probably never come to Florida or I’d say I’ll see you there!
Also, guys, cool it.
Oh, Becky.
no way for that not to hurt a little more then it mighta otherwise.
Yes, obviously Becky’s not entitled to a romance with Joyce. No one said she was. No one in the comic, no one in the comments, Becky has yet to insinuate that was the case (unless you found her brief breakdown immediately after getting rejected, because she realized her world was crumbling around her). So can we cool it with stating the fucking obvious here? Becky’s not an incel. This isn’t, never was, and never will be “you’re gay so you should have been with me, how could you?”. You can debate if she was entitled to knowing about these two, that’s whatever. But NO ONE is saying she was entitled to Joyce. Even people on the Patreon are somehow struggling to grasp this. Being sad about a situation ≠ “you owed me your affections”.
[How I low-key kinda pictured this scene would happen]
The last panel is so sad.
I’m just wondering how bad this will get, and how much Becky will say about how hurt she is right now, until we all discover that Dina walked in the room with Joyce and Dorothy and is standing slightly to the right of panel.
Girls! Girls! Girls!
You are not helping Becky at all here… 😛
What makes you think either of them care about helping Becky?
That’s not sarcasm. Caring about Becky’s feelings are so far down the list that they might as well not be there.
If this went up on reddit i think the verdict would be “Everyone sucks” here
Okay, ladies. We don’t have to answer TOO much.
I suppose once the knife is in you might as well move it around.
what kills me about this “I fell in love with her from the beginning” narrative is that it actually cheapens what really happened, which is that Joyce GRADUALLY fell in love, just like she GRADUALLY learned that atheists are not the devil and that people outside her church were human beings who deserve not only respect but love. Joyce slowly learned and grew as a person and it was increadibly endearing to watch; I don’t think I’m alone in saying that watching her growth is one of the big reasons I have been following the comic for 10+ years.
But now we’re throwing that away, because she was in love from the beginning. Now we’re saying that she didn’t grow from seeing Dorothy as a somewhat suspicious but tolerable outside-the-church interloper to the centre of her universe. No it was always like this, Joyce was just waiting to pull the trigger this entire time. Oceania is always at war with East Asia.
And if this is Joyce just saying something blatantly untrue because she has goo-goo eyes for her new relationship: that would be fine if we didn’t know, per Willis confirmation, that this is the endgame ship. This is the sort of shit kids who will break up before the end up of the school year.
because what kind of 18-year-old talks like this, unless they’re too besotted to talk rationally? People before 20 who pledged their eternal love to someone they met less than a year ago rarely will actually stay with that person for the rest of their life. Joyce is talking like a stupid kid in love, but we know that this will work out for her, even though by all accounts it shouldn’t.
Feel free to link confirmation that this is the endgame ship because I’m pretty sure Willis has not said that at all, and it’s just people overreacting to their commentary about wedding imagery in the tear gas scene.
(Hint: even if it were a literal marriage, people get divorced. Like all the time.)
I could be proven wrong, but I don’t think Willis would give that away? That would take the fun out of things.
Yeah that’s part of why I’m extremely skeptical.
I take anything Derek says with smallest grains of salt they seem exist entirely ti complain about everything including things that did not happen.
“It’s ok, Becky, it’s not all women that I’m not attracted to, just you.”
She’s also not attracted to Ruth, so maybe it’s redheads.
From the Patreon: the REAL most cursed ship option is Becky/Ruth.
I see you have not read my cursed Ruth/Joyce manifesto
Don’t worry folks, she didn’t say she was hurt, so clearly she’s fine.
Alternatively, she isn’t upset about the cheating specifically, so it doesn’t matter.
Said this in response to Luna, but I think it merits its own top level:
A lot of the negativity I am seeing around the fourth panel here would make more sense to me if Willis had edited a fan wiki to say “Joyce fell in love with Dorothy at first sight.”
Like, THEN I would totally get all the [citation needed] responses.
But this is not Willis telling you that they’re retconning the start of the comic? It’s just a character stating her subjective feelings? While lost in the sauce of New Relationship Energy?
I don’t think she needs to be lying or delusional… she can just be, you know, romanticizing things. The way she’s always done, heh.
Delusional is a strong word and not what I would use, but she is clearly engaging in mental revisionism and looking through her early relationship with Dorothy solely through a romantic lens instead of acknowledging the truth that no, they were friends who fell in love. She’s getting carried away in a very Joyce-like way, and causing splash damage to Becky as a result.
Totally fine and reasonable take! Not at all what I was whingeing about. 🙂
The issue is the way DOA is written I’m meant to take what characters say as gospel.
-A lady says Joyce may be on the spectrum based purely on her subjective experience
Joyce and all characters will act as if she’s had a full diagnosis because comic time doesn’t move fast enough for her to go through the proccess.
-Sal asserts that Linda favors Walky due to him being “whiter”
It is just commonly agreed that this is the case and walkys refusal to acknowledge it is just denial (the implications of this storyline actually piss me off a bit.)
-Joyce brings up Joe left Carla off of his “Do” list
While there’s several reasons this could be the case (including him apparently not even knowing who she is in the previous strip) it was made clear by the author in the comments that he did see her and even if he wasnt at all attracted to her would be still put her on the list.
So like…i dunno. I just take what characters say as gospel at this point. Unless they’re like…blatantly incorrect like Jennifer’s Amazi-girl theories.
“That lady” was a medical professional and autistic people don’t need a diagnosis to be autistic and to not have to ask to be treated as if they are autistic.
I agree but that medical professional as far as I know didn’t work with autism diagnosis and was a pharmaceutical specialist. When she spoke to Joyce about autism she brought up personal experience rather than medical experience. (iirc)
But yes you can operate under the assumption of autism even without a proper diagnosis. I’ve had many people tell me I have all the signs of ADHD and I derive comfort from the idea because it explains so many of my behavior. But I also definitely let it be known that I am not properly diagnosed cuz I feel like that matters.
I am telling you as an autistic person that it does not.
There might be an ideal world out there where psychiatric diagnoses were easy to come by, didn’t involve a lot of money/insurance shenanigans, were not stigmatizing, and didn’t have differential diagnostic issues based on the research being wildly skewed by gender.
In that world, I think the formal diagnosis matters more than it does in this one, in which having or not having a formal diagnosis is highly influenced by a lot of factors unrelated to your actual neurological status.
True. All that stuff is why I’m currently undiagnosed. But also I’m pretty uncomfortable about the idea of taking on this identity without going through any official channels. I would never, for example, sign up for an event that only allows neurodivergent people to participate. Likewise I would never say “as an autistic person/person with ADHD I feel…” As if I can at all claim something I only theoretically am. I gain personal comfort from the idea I have a Neurodivergent and that effects the way i treat myself but without being seen by a professional I feel uncomfortable outwardly presenting that way. Especially when there’s folks who’ve lived with a stigma I have not.
And that’s fine as long as you’re only applying that barrier to yourself, and you’re aware that it is a self-imposed barrier. The issue only starts at the point which you start suggesting that other people are wrong to identify with autism or ADHD and use those terms to describe themselves/find community with other people diagnosed or undiagnosed. You haven’t done this to my knowledge, I’m just explaining some of the pushback you’re getting is from people who have encountered this in their lives.
If you’re uncomfortable calling yourself ADHD until you have a formal diagnosis, that is totally your choice. But diagnoses really aren’t available to everyone and they aren’t required to find community with other neurodivergent people. You’d be welcome here.
~ an AuDHD person
+1
This seems like the weird mirror image of my cis white male ass not feeling super comfortable with “queer” or “pan” despite my partner being enby and the fact that I’m really internally not straight, it still feels like usurping something I’m too privileged to deserve sometimes.
idk, i mean that’s fair but I do think community diagnosis is valuable.
For instance I have a friend who I and everyone else in the group considers autistic. Literally to the point where when in a call with me, them, and another person, they said “I’m the only non-autistic person here”. Three of us laughed assuming it was a joke. They were like “why are you laughing?” and so we discovered that they did not consider themselves autistic but all the autistic people, whether late diagnosed or early, did.
I think taking that community diagnosis and using it to try to help understand our own behaviors, idiosyncrasies, and difficulties lets us find new, fun, interesting, and helpful ways to move through the world.
i feel like while it’s not as idk official or prestiged in some ways, I do think it basically has as much value as a psychiatric one but without the risk of having your name associated with the diagnosis, blocking you from certain things (like immigration in some places).
That’s more or less how I’ve taken it. But I just always have this “asterisk” next to it in my mind. I operate as if I have ADHD. I may even say “People tell me I seem like I have ADHD” but I just wouldn’t feel comfortable saying “I definitively have ADHD” Because I simply don’t know.
I agree with this.
There’s a good deal of supporting evidence for Linda’s racism, some of it appearing before Sal said that and Walky came around to understanding it a long time ago.
The Joe/Carla/list thing is interesting because it’s fairly recent and hasn’t been brought up again yet – though it was set up way back when the list came out with someone asking Carla if she wanted to know if she was on it. The rest of Joe’s comments in that discussion … well, let’s just say they didn’t give me any reason to doubt Joe left her out because he didn’t see her as a woman. I do hope that Joe’s “I’m not going to be cruel” transphobia comes up again. Be interesting to see him struggle a little with it.
I do hope we come back to
Joe pretty literally said “there’s grannies on that list”, way back when. So.
(Backing you up! But also yeah there were lines, throwaway as they were, that confirmed the list was not only women Joe was attracted to.)
I have to say, I don’t think any of those are very similar examples…?
The doctor was certainly presented as an authority, but also readers had been clocking Joyce as autistic for years, and the author is, y’know, also autistic.
Sal and Walky were presented as disagreeing with each other about their parents’ treatment of her, but Walky’s perspective was always suspect because, if Sal was telling the truth, Walky had always been the golden child — and it’s not easy for golden children to admit to themselves that they were treated better than their siblings. Then, of course, his primary defenses were things like “our mom’s married to a Black guy, that makes it impossible for her to be racist”, and also defensively trying to suggest that if Sal HAD been mistreated, it was because she’d deserved it.
Then of course their parents sent the care packages, and showed up in person, and Walky slowly but surely came around.
Joe talked about his list sporadically before this most recent arc, and he’d said things like “there’s grannies on that list”, so the idea that Carla’s absence would have meant he just wasn’t attracted to her was never a realistic possibility. The best option was definitely that he had just never met her, but it kept getting suggested anyway, and eventually Willis got frustrated by people repeatedly defending Joe’s right not to be attracted to trans women
(which is a very common transphobic canard, as well as a derailment: trans women, for example, say, “hey, we are women,” and transphobic lesbians and straight men say, “it’s not transphobic of me not to be attracted to trans women :/” — and, like, nobody said it was*! we literally just said they’re women! are you attracted to every cis woman?????)
so eventually Willis got frustrated and came into the comments to say Joe had left Carla off the list for transphobic reasons.
It’s not virulent transphobia. It’s mundane, everyday transphobia. I hope Joe works on it!
* although being real with you, if you (general you) think “I’m just not attracted to ANY trans woman, ever” is a reasonable statement, you’ve got something to unpack, because trans women are not a monolith, and if you’re really that confident that you could never be attracted to one…….
Ok it’s tommorow and you’ll never see this But
The Doctor-
She said that Joyce reminded of her daughter, which seemed more like an observation than a medically informed unofficial diagnosis. Perhaps an informed diagnostic but I never got the impression she regularly diagnoses people with autism, just that she recognizes the traits Joyce has in her own daughter.
Sal and Walky-
Walky’s treatment being better is established yes. I’m moreso specifically irked by both the implications and takeaway that it is only because Linda is racist. Mostly because it implies that even as mixed race kid Walky has to feel some level of “white guilt” over “not being black enough”. Which ew. I mean I’m super sure it happens but EW. I hate when people shame mixed race kids for their “mixed privelage” like they’re not still brothers.
Joe-
I don’t disagree. My point is, Joe said in the previous strip “who’s carla?” So I, a commenter, assumed he’d just never met her. So Willis said “nope nope he’s seen her, chose not to include her. This is the only way you are meant to interpret this”. So I wasn’t allowed to make any assumptions about Joe that aren’t “he’s transphobic”. So yeah no…this goes to my “character says a thing it must be true, or at least be being said for a reason theory.
I disagree that these examples aren’t similar. This storyline is about how much Dorothy and Joyce love each other. The author AND people in the comments continuously going back through the comic and meticulously showing “hints” that at the time were played off as jokes. I cannot simply assume that Joyce having ALWAYS loved Dorothy is not, in fact, meant to be my read.
These are cool points! Thank you for replying 🙂 I hope my counter arguments will be interesting reading in turn!
— She did just gave Joyce a referral, it’s true, but I don’t think it was supposed to be her word alone, so much as all the characters going “ohhhh yeah that makes sense”, that canonized Joyce’s autism.
— This next one… woof. Poor Walky! For the record, I totally agree that Sal and Walky both suffered. Walky’s suffering has been different, not necessarily better. It was pretty CLEARLY directly responsible for how terrified he was of getting a bad grade in calculus. He’d made light of Sal’s delinquency a few times, because that’s how he copes, but he definitely internalized “if I’m bad, my parents won’t just stop be angry, they’ll ship me off to another state and delete me from the family tree”.
I think Sal lashed out at Walky in that argument because she did harbor some resentment, but I don’t think we are meant to believe she was fully justified: how their parents treated her isn’t Walky’s fault. I think she was just having a lateral aggression moment.
Walky didn’t choose to have “good” hair, as the saying goes. From Sal’s perspective, he benefitted sometimes from their parents’ preferential treatment, but see everything I wrote out above. AITA might like to pretend otherwise, but being the golden child isn’t all flowers and rainbows. I think golden children are pretty invariably deeply traumatized.
(I’m super white, but I know a thing or two about neglect and preferential treatment wrt siblings. So that’s my focus on replying. I didn’t personally get the impression that Willis was trying to say Walky’s fine and that only Sal was hurt by their parents or that Walky should feel bad for the times in their childhoods where Sal got punished and he didn’t… but also, it sucks that that’s how it reads to you, and if I’m right and that’s not the intent, Willis could clearly have done a better job with the whole thing. 😢)
— I did like that punchline (the “what? She’s like a sister to me! …okay, you got me, which one’s Carla”), but I think after Willis had already posed the question ages ago (Carla muttered out loud that she wasn’t sure whether she would be more upset to be on the list or left off), that would have been a bit of a cop-out.
Again though, lotta comic! I don’t think you’re at fault for not remembering the like two references from earlier, and if Willis directed that at you specifically, I think that was a mistake on their part.
I wrote a whole post yesterday about Joyce’s early interactions with the other women, noting how her interactions with Dorothy in particular closely mirrored Walky’s, just with the volume turned down from 11 to maybe 2, and speculating that maybe she did fall in love with Dorothy at first sight.
Now today’s comic comes up, and Joyce says, “Actually, John was 100% correct yesterday,” and now everyone’s all, “Oh no, the repressed fundie girl didn’t ask her new gay crush out to dinner until four whole days after the first time she ever laid eyes on her! Obviously she didn’t feel anything then! What a lying harlot!”
The plain fact is I do not consider Joyce to be a reliable narrator here.
^
Which is fine with me for the record.
I think most of the negativity is actually coming from people interpreting it basically the same way you are: That Joyce is over-romanticizing things and doing so in a way that makes it all seem worse to Becky.
There are people citing references and some of them might be treating it as factual error that needs to be disproven, but I think that’s a small part of the negativity.
Well I’m not talking about that. People are allowed not to like it. My post is, I thought very clearly, about people linking earlier strips and saying Joyce is lying or otherwise complaining about this as if it were a retcon.
I enjoy Theocracy and Dorothy and Joyce are both my sweet blorbos but the way they go about their newfound relationship is very dumb and silly. I am also the Polycule Poobah who believes even now in a full triad and I am lucking my lips evilly for it.
I do not think that they are in any way shape or form a model for real life relationships and if you apply these models to a real life relationship it will end rapidly and poorly.
Also, Becky’s sadness is valid.
The Joe/Joyce/Dorothy polycule is going to go so badly and I’m impatient to get to it so I can watch it.
Honestly, I am refusing to invest in poly stocks until it at least gets mentioned to Dorothy… which is currently the remaining drama that I’M impatient for.
Unless Walky gets carted off to the hospital for overdosing on sodium instead of alcohol like a more typical college freshman.
PREDICTION: Becky is going to think that this is why Dorothy decided not to go to Yale, and will ask her about it, which is how Joyce will find out about it, which will cause a rapid cascade of unforseen emotions from Joyce, who until then hadn’t thought that far into the future yet.
For some reason I thought Joyce already knew.
She does. Dorothy told her on their dranks date.
I knew I was remembering correctly!
Ah, thanks. I couldn’t recall that. There’s still the possibility that Joyce will wonder if it was because of her, I suppose
To be completely fair, Dorothy’s given reason is actually perfectly understandable from a trauma perspective and “it’s because of Joyce” wouldn’t line up with the sequence of events Dorothy and Joyce are throwing out there.
the road to hurting a friend is paved with loving intentions
You’d think Becky was the one that got cheated on
I mean… I do get it. Becky showed up during a low point and confessed to her best friend that she’s had a crush on her for a long time, found out it wasn’t reciprocated because Joyce isn’t into women… only to find out later that Joyce apparently (granted after much soul-searching and personal growth) IS into women… just not Becky. Which I could definitely see playing on personal insecurities. Especially if that person is still struggling with the concept that sexual preferences can be fluid.
“Oh, Joyce apparently always WAS into women. So that means the problem was with ME.”
“because Joyce isn’t into women”
People keep saying that as if it was something Joyce actually said to Becky. That may be what you took away from that scene, that’s probably what Becky took away from that scene. That’s not what was actually said. The why was never fully articulated. Just “I don’t . . . I’m not . . .” and “I– don’t. I really don’t.”
“I’m not . . .” could end “a lesbian.” or “attracted to girls.” It could also end “into redheads.” or “attracted to you because you’re like a sister to me.” or any number of ways that’s not a denial of being sexually attracted to women.
Even if it had ended with a variant on the first two I would be surprised, considering she had the same upbringing as Joyce, if Becky hadn’t gone through a period of denial like the one Joyce was in until recently.
Of course, “I’m not a lesbian.” was easier for Becky to accept.
This is really nitpicking. Clearly, Joyce thought she was straight at the time and that was the sentiment she was trying to convey, regardless of whatever subconscious reasons she may have had for rejecting Becky.
iirc they also talked about how Becky thought Joyce’s talk about cute buys was an act, but it wasn’t.
David, probably too late for this advice, as it is 4 PM on the 12th, but STAY AWAY FROM I-270 during rush hour…it is pure hell on a Friday! Also, if you are jonesing for Latin cuisine, check out Guardado’s on Del Ray Ave (they have killer Flan in addition to their excellent dinner fare) (I lived in Bethesda for 15 years).
It looked pretty bad coming the other direction, but coming into town on 270 was effortless!
(i’m sure my navigation woulda suggested something else if it was backed up too much)
Excellent! Glad you missed the chaos. DC area commuter traffic is brutal. DC area commuter traffic on a Friday afternoon (especially since most of the gov workers were ordered to stop working from home and return to the office) is MINDBOGGLINGLY BRUTAL! Before I finally retired, I had a 50 mile commute between Dulles Airport and Laurel, MD (1/2 way between Baltimore and DC) and some days it took me 3 1/2 hours to get home on Fridays, so for the last couple of years I took to driving a circuitous route (putting me on I-70 E) that was nearly 90 miles but would get me home in a little over 90 minutes (praise G*D I had a comfortable car at that time).
Enjoy your stay in DC!
Don’t worry, she’s fine… the panel isn’t red
I know there was the T.A. meeting before that, but I consider the first time they truly get to introduce themselves to each other is at this point:
https://www.dumbingofage.com/2010/comic/book-1/02-uphill-from-here/dexter/
Also, it’s kinda funny that this means the competition between Walky and Joyce basically started at the same time.
In my headcanon, when Becky was hugging Joyce and tearfully begging her to not forget her and to not change, what was going through her mind was “Oooo, who’s that hot cinnamon roll walking with that hatless dork? I’m going to have to get to know her more.”
Thereby cementing Dorothy and Becky’s fierce rivalry from the inception of the comic.
Hard for me to feel too busted up about someone who’s already dating a partner she’s insecure about being insecure about someone she isn’t dating.
oh, of course, people’s feelings instantly and tidily end as soon as they start dating someone new
I mean, you laid out all the groundwork and we all saw it coming, but you managed such great storytelling throughout all of this. Really powerful storytelling.
Well Joyce and Dorothy ALMOST managed to handle this response correctly, for a panel. Becky didn’t need to hear any of what came next you dunces. But with the name of this comic I expected as much blundering.
oof
Gosh, isn’t anyone prepared to wait and see what Becky says? She’s presumably processing. It takes time. These strips could be seconds long…
Neighbor, I’m not going to sit here and apologize for talking about how I enjoy spending time with my significant other. That my relationship is what society sees as “normal” doesn’t diminish the happiness it brings me.
The reason I know that it’s me and not society is that I had to spend about 20 years wanting to be in a relationship and not having that in the cards. I wasn’t unhappy, despite what society told me. And I’m not perfectly happy now that I’m in a relationship- it hasn’t fixed my mental health issues, obviously- but I’m sitting here on a Saturday morning talking obscure Naruto lore with her before we go to the Renaissance Faire.
If that doesn’t appeal to you, or other folks out there, more power to you. Live however the fuck you want to live and fuck anyone who tells you otherwise.
But, respectfully, I think I know how I live and love a whole lot better than you do, random internet stranger, and how I talk about my girlfriend making me happy has no bearing on you.