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To justify second helpings, you say you ate too much icecream and must get more to restore the balance. Then you *accidentally* get too much icecream and have to get more cake. *Repeat*
I wouldn’t be surprised if she felt that the reverse was ok with the justification that it’s ok if women do it since they’re not the ones with the power.
Oh fuck both of you. Spoiler alert, women don’t really rate guys. It’s not a thing? Like they might think some guys are hot while others don’t do it for them. But they don’t have a pseudo-public system of using numbering systems to reduce men to objects because women don’t fucking have that power.
And inventing a false equivalence where it doesn’t fucking exist to justify shallow sexist bullshit that is openly connected to an active group of rapists who train others to rape like them?
False equivalencies aren’t cool, but neither are blanket generalizations. “Women don’t” isn’t really something you should start a sentence with unless you can back it up with something non-anecdotal or objective.
Not a critique of your point, but definitely a critique of how it’s framed.
(Prefacing corrections by saying “fuck you” is probably also not good practice, although I am sure there are fair personal reasons for the animosity).
I was a pretty hardcore bongo in college. All of my friends were as well. We rated the shit out of guys. Normally on a 1-5 scale (called them Cats like hurricanes).
Tone policing is especially important when shouting matches start between people earnestly making their points. Cerberus, you may not have patience for what TemporalShrew is trying to do, but from where I’m standing you’re blaming someone for trying to create a more rational atmosphere for discussion.
If someone’s point is something that wouldn’t be acceptable even if expressed politely, that’s when the banhammer should come out. It’s a private forum. First Amendment protections do not apply here, only our willingness to talk.
Tone policing is not good because it allows people to avoid difficult discussions because the other party was unable to distance themselves from their emotions enough to explain a situation without using emotional language whatsoever. It’s often been used as a derailment tactic to avoid important conversations. >a href=http://groupthink.kinja.com/on-tone-policing-why-its-bullshit-and-why-you-need-to-1148310719 title=This article> explains more
For the record, I did read the article. Yeah, no, I don’t see the merits of its argument. Having good reasons for expressing something in an unreasonable manner, especially when that manner leads to the communication of plainly inaccurate information, is a mitigating circumstance.
Tone policing is why moderators exist on forums. It’s why moderators exist in debates. Just because some people abuse it to gaslight minorities doesn’t suddenly make it bad.
To be honest, I’ve always had trouble buying into the tone policing argument myself. Like, everyone has a right to be angry if someone says or does something shitty to them. Most people, I also feel, should be granted the minimum grace to make a mistake and apologize for it.
So if I accidentally say something shitty to someone that makes them hurt and angry, by all means, they should call me on it–and I would hope they would at least give me a chance to apologize and explain myself, even if they don’t forgive me or accept my explanation. And if I say that I don’t understand, I would hope that the injured party would have the patience and willingness to explain to me what I did wrong so that I can apologize appropriately (though they are by no means required to do so and I am okay with that).
I’m willing to listen and learn from my mistakes. But I do ask that others are polite, not because I want to silence them, but because there IS a line where you can take it too far and abuse people who probably didn’t deserve it. So while I am willing to listen and learn (and I think most people are too–but that just might be because I’m an optimist), I’m NOT going to take verbal abuse, and I will call out someone who attempts to use it on me or others. I think part of the reason I feel so strongly about this is because I recently came out of a relationship that was often characterized by emotional abuse against me that I permitted to go on because my ex-SO “had it worse” and therefore I didn’t have the “right” to speak up for myself because I didn’t have her disadvantages. It…kind of messed me up, so I’m determined not to let it happen to me again, or to other people if I think it can be stopped.
And while I neither can nor would I want to MAKE someone opt for a specific tone, I would caution that verbally abusing people who may otherwise be willing to listen is a good way to lose potential allies really quick.
Anyway, that’s my two cents. Maybe you agree, or maybe you think I’m a raging asshole. Both are valid views to take, I suppose. I generally tend to assume that I’ve been enough of a jerk in my youth that any vitriol thrown my way by strangers is probably deserved, but I’ve been trying to get out of that mindset because I only realized how unhealthy that was (not to mention that that mindset was based on a skewed perception of reality that had been built up over time due to isolation).
Anyway, I’m rambling now, so I’m just going to end this comment here. I hope it’s helpful to somebody (or if not helpful, then at least interesting…is that the right word?). I’m having strange thoughts again, so I’m just going to put on a movie and try to get some sleep.
Emotional abuse is a thing. Tone policing is a thing too. Sometimes it’s tricky to see the differences.
It’s possible to use anger and shouting over people to dominate and control the conversation. It’s also possible to use someone’s justified anger as an excuse to shut them down and again dominate and control the conversation.
Okay, if we’re playing this game, here is what I mean:
While some women can be pieces of shit who borrow aspects of toxic masculinity culture*, there is no standardized culture nor are there encouragements for women to rate the people they are sexually attracted to on anywhere near the same level as exists for men. And women doing it in a pseudo-public fashion like this would be much more likely to encounter strong push back from their peers.
*One of my friends in college was a lesbian who fell hard into PUA awfulness and it was a long road clawing her back to not being a piece of shit.
And it is this normalized culture and it’s closeness to an actual organized movement of rapists teaching others how to rape more effectively that is a systematic problem that causes real harm not only to the women targeted by it, but also to the mean perpetuating it as it robs them of the right to non-normative attraction or romantic desire lest they be mocked or beaten by their male peers.
And the particular aspects of this culture means desperate attempts to make this a “both sides do it” false equivalence end up minimizing or erasing the real harm of these systems and disallows any real focus on dismantling this toxic system.
And “both sides do it” in general is a thing that makes me very angry at the moment because the abuse of that rhetorical tactic has gotten us to the point where the open movement to murder millions of Americans making extra sure to get a few kicks in on the ones most marginalized is all normalized as “just another side” and where we are so desperate for “both sides do it” BS that we’re screaming at angry scared kids setting trash cans on fire or trying to fight back against literal nazis because we so desperately need something the left is doing “wrong” to balance out the vile cruelty on the right.
And as for tone policing. Well, there’s a large amount of reasons why it’s a terrible practice, but I’m going to be very specific here instead.
Last night, I was desperately attempting not to harm myself, weeping my eyes out, because the US House of Representatives passed a law that is designed to kill me and all of my friends and make it so we can be denied any right to access health insurance ever again.
And also because the shiny orange fascist who stole the Presidency signed an Executive Order that says that an emergency worker can straight up deny me emergency care if they have a “religious objection” to me being trans. And since corporations are people now, it also means hospitals can choose to just kick me out or refuse to admit me if I need help. And this is coming at a time where violence against communities I belong to are increasing and literal nazis are coming into my general neighborhood looking to hurt people to defeat some nebulous idea of liberalism they have in their head.
And this horrible state of affairs is directly because of the bullshit uses of “both sides do it” normalizing hate and making it so folks are scared to call out Republican evil for what it is even when it is designed to kill me and everyone I love.
This all happened yesterday. But hey, I was uncivil in one of my many interactions and that civility matters more than humanity. Which, yes, I know. I know that I will die in the darkness and everyone will remark on how at least there was no unpleasantness about the whole affair. That’s what had me wanting to slit my wrists last night.
So yeah, for some strange reason I didn’t have patience for tone policing last night.
Like, given how 217 folks very civilly and without anger voted for a bill which if it passes the senate will kill me and everyone I love in fits and starts over years, so I get to experience one of the worst parts of the Plague Years (HIV crisis) for my very own, I’m not that big of a fan of civility at the moment, I’m terribly sorry to say.
I know everything is SUPER fucked right now, but hopefully this will make you feel a tiny bit better: the ACLU has issued a press release in response to the Apricot Hellbeast’s executive order. They described it as “fake news” and “an elaborate photo-op with no discernible policy outcome.”
Here’s the whole thing:
“Today’s executive order signing was an elaborate photo-op with no discernible policy outcome. After careful review of the order’s text we have determined that the order does not meaningfully alter the ability of religious institutions or individuals to intervene in the political process. The order portends but does not yet do harm to the provision of reproductive health services.
President Trump’s prior assertion that he wished to ‘totally destroy’ the Johnson Amendment with this order has proven to be a textbook case of ‘fake news.’ The directive to federal agencies to explore religious-based exceptions to healthcare does cue up a potential future battle, but as of now, the status quo has not changed.
What President Trump did today was merely provide a faux sop to religious conservatives and kick the can down the road on religious exemptions on reproductive health care services. We will continue our steadfast charge to defend Americans’ right to exercise their religion and ensure their freedom from having others’ beliefs forced upon them. The ACLU stands ready to sue the Trump administration and in the event that this order triggers any official government action at all, we will see Trump in court, again.”
Hang in there. And even though it absolutely does not feel like it’s true right now, please keep reminding yourself that it gets better.
Kit- That actually makes it a million times worse because it means we’re being cut off and left on our own.
Like, a lot of queer organizations have worries about Sec. 4 as it gives AG Sessions the right to determine what does and doesn’t count as a religious liberty exemption and he loathes us and wants us dead.
And even if it does turn out to be unenforceable that does not change the real impact on the ground level. Someone being able and maybe even succeeding at suing on behalf of me (and the fact that they might not even succeed) being left to die by emergency workers would not change the person believing that their “religious liberty” would be protected to do so.
Like there’s a million ways in which this will make already existing discrimination problems so so much worse.
And now the ACLU has abandoned us and made jokes about “fake news” instead.
Cerberus – The ACLU is not abandoning us. That’s not what they are saying at all. Their last sentence was “The ACLU stands ready to sue the Trump administration and in the event that this order triggers any official government action at all, we will see Trump in court, again.”
They’re saying that from a legal perspective, his EO doesn’t look like it actually changes anything. And Lambda Legal seems to agree:
“The executive order did not explicitly elevate various anti-LGBTQ views as exempt from anti-discrimination protections, and it is clear that the administration backed away from the draft order leaked in February because of the threat of lawsuits from Lambda Legal and others.
That is certainly a victory, as our opponents understand very well – “Trump Fails To Deliver on Religious Liberty,” according to the National Organization for Marriage.”
Lambda Legal was way less snarky and called the EO a “clarion call to his anti-LGBTQ minions, led by Jeff Sessions, to use every lever at their disposal to dismantle the progress that we’ve made over the last eight years” but they aren’t suing yet, either.
Like you said, bigots who believe the EO gives them discriminatory carte blanche are going to start discriminating. Hopefully if they know the law hasn’t changed, they won’t change their behavior for the worse. I suspect that, coupled with taking the wind out of Trump’s sail, motivated the ACLU’s statement.
I’m sorry. I was trying to point to something hopeful and “it’s less awful than we expected” is a pretty crappy substitute.
Cerberus – You have nothing to apologize for. I’m scared, too. This political environment is fucking terrifying. And the 2018 election cycle is going to be brutal, which makes it even worse.
But we can’t give up. We can’t let the bastards win. Our community suffered through the fucking Plague while Ronald Republican-Jesus Reagan sat silently in the Oval Office letting us die and his press secretary literally laughed about it. But we’re still here. Queer people still exist. Our community made it through that. And we’ll make it through this, too.
In the words of our venerable elder-queers: Act Up. Fight Back.
Because every time a marginalized person acts within the bounds of “civil,” the dominant group changes the definition. Peaceful protest was civil… until that football player took a knee, or that woman dared laugh at Sessions.
Cerberus, I had no idea that ” an actual organized movement of rapists teaching others how to rape more effectively” exists and I am dumbfounded that this is tolerated. What does this group call themselves? Are they some kind of 4-Chan subculture or what?
What Pablo said. Red-pillers, men’s right activists, pick-up artists.
The last is the one that I’m most directly referring to as it’s all about “getting game” to “score chicks” but all the techniques that are popularized are about exploiting social norms against making a scene to escalate encroaching unwanted touch or coercing a not-saying-no by any means necessary up to and including the use of alcohol or other drugs.
Most of the big names in the scene are admitted rapists (RooshV, et al), and some have detailed their rapes and sold it as a how-to-guide to “struggling dudes” who just want to know how to “get laid”.
But all definitely trade in general tactics to get around consent as in their minds women totally secretly always want them because they are so manly and good at game, but women have to make a big show out of not wanting it, so it’s all about working your way around that and get the “notch” on your score-sheet that you can brag about to the fellows complete with “conquest report”.
Some of them even made a game out of specifically targeting women who said they were asexual “for the challenge”.
They even teach this at professional events for professional therapists. I have sat in on those classes. What I learned at professional events is they abhor rape. Rape is wrong and evil. Instead, they recommend using various techniques of persuasion to convince women to say yes. That is certainly not rape. The woman said yes. Yes means it’s not rape. Right?
In professional settings they never say “women”. It is always “people”. And it is never about sex. (Sex with a client is genuinely verbotten.) It is about helping people achieve what is right for them, even it is something they did not realize they needed. Did you know these techniques can be used outside a professional setting, like at parties and bars, to help people become more comfortable talking to you? Those are great places to practice these techniques and a great way to make new friends.
At professional events, they phrase it in ways that are socially acceptable such as “Dynamic Conversational Therapy” or “Breaking Through Clients Barriers”. Pretty much everyone attending knows exactly what it is. The panels are attended by about a 65/35 mix of men/women.
Why are they tolerated? Because they offer something people want. Power over others.
For what it is worth, at the last conference I attended, several of us held a counter panel explaining why this was basically evil. We had a tenth of the attendance their panels had. Sigh.
@ Falcon & Songbird – First, tone policing is when you say a point is invalid because it was angrily or rudely phrased, which is what TemporalShrew was doing. That’s utter bullshit and frankly, it’s not bullshit I am willing to put up with anymore. Especially because ‘but it turns off allies!!!!’ is utter bullshit – first, if people only give a fuck about other people being oppressed when they aren’t angry, you don’t actually give a fuck about it, and second, because it’s untrue. I’ve known far too many people who’ve learned that way to put any stock in that bullshit argument. That is not about ‘rational atmosphere for discussion’ it’s about not wanting to listen. And frankly, I’m done with it.
So is the new rule that only men can critique men and women can only critique women? Separate but equal? Because anyone starting off any argument with “Fuck You” regardless of what’s between their legs will shut the listeners ears.
A shitty tone is how you pick fights. Oooooooh well okay troll on you. Good job i almost didn’t notice you were trolling people well have fun.
Fuck you too. Because women doing it is very much generally not a thing. Some probably do, because people suck, but culturally speaking it’s very much more geared towards men doing it regarding women. And fuck you for doing the ‘call outs that aren’t 100% polite aren’t good practice, people don’t listen!!!’ bullshit.
And fuck you again for knowing you’re nitpicking about something serious, and doing it anyways.
I think there’s maybe differences in what “rate” is being taken to mean here, because it’s absolutely true that people judge other people’s looks and personality (and accomplishments, and family, and friends, and job, and hobbies, and etc) all the time. It isn’t even confined to “would I like to sleep with this person” either. So if that’s what you mean by “rate”, then, yeah, women rate men too. And other women. And men rate men and women.
But that’s a bit of a trite observation, y’know? It’s so obvious, it doesn’t really need to be said. And so when someone says women rate men, the assumption is that “rate” is referring to precisely the kind of thing Joe’s doing right here. And that’s a verrrrrrrrry different thing than the general process everybody does. It’s a very specific kind of objectifying and it’s done by a specific subgroup of people.
It’s also interesting, I feel, how systematizing something can change perfectly ordinary, unremarkable behaviours into something uncomfortable. Consider Dorothy and her spreadsheet on the dorm residents. It’s entirely expected — in fact, social graces demand it — that you keep at least some kind of tabs on the people around you, yeah? You’ll probably know when friends or family are going on trips, stuff they’re working on, who they’re dating, etc. But if you start writing that stuff down, start organizing it, it starts looking more like spying.
Same in some ways here. Nobody, I think, would have any problem with Joe thinking, say, that Roz is more attractive than Joyce (aside from, like, waifu wars). Hell, I don’t think people’d have problems with Joe changing his opinions on that based on Joyce decking him, yeah?
But Joe’s got this all systematized, and what’s more it’s a very reductionist kind of system in reducing people to not only a number, but JUST a number. So it’s got all sorts of creepy and demeaning overtones, and then he compounds those by putting these ratings out in public, which is an asshole manouver on many, many levels.
I might be one of the few people who felt Dorothy’s spreadsheet was a wonderful thing that would help her do her job better. I mean, I might be more self-conscious about what I say around her, but as far as being an RA goes writing down stuff relevant to keeping me happy and the dorm well-run sounds like a good idea to me.
I didn’t say it’s a bad idea. It’s vital, even, as you scale up; if you’re running an enterprise of any scale you have to have files on the people involved, the people you’ve networked with outside the organization, etc. The trick to making it work, at least if you’re aiming for a positive impression, is to not give the impression that you have them (let alone are relying on them).
Remember stuff about somebody and they’ll be flattered; recite a file and they’ll be pissed.
I get it. I also feel that it’s a weakness in the human condition that needs to be compensated for mentally. I certainly would be flattered if someone remembered. But I’d actively work to not be uncomfortable if someone told me where they kept the record of it. Whether they remember what I like because I made an impression or because they’re just that damn good shouldn’t be a possibl epenalty for them.
A critique of your comment: Cerberus is a woman, so she is an expert on what women (generally) do.
A further critique of your comment: nitpicking the style of other people’s comments while ignoring their content is a classic derailing technique. it’s curious that you’re more critical of Cerberus’ framing than of the sexism displayed in this comment thread, which is surely a much more significant issue.
That’s… not really valid. I’m a man and I am absolutely not an expert on what “men generally do” because they’re billions of ’em and I’m not like most at all. I’m an expert on what I do, and to some extent an expert on what people I like do, but I have no idea about the general population of “men” because I don’t know, or like, most of them.
Unless you want to imply all women are the same, you can’t claim to be an expert just because you’re one out of billions of them.
generalizations aren’t implied to be true of every single person ever, that’s why they’re generalizations. it’s like the mean in a data set. it’s a basic point that recurs often enough to be relevant to argument and discussion.
inherent in the concept of women is the concept of femininity, which entails what makes femininity distinct from other modes of gender expression, the specific struggles of existing in that gender expression, and the socialization imposed upon people living in that gender expression. so if enough people who identify as women say they have a problem with this specific thing, it’s a reasonable generalization to say that women do, even if not all women in all places do to the same extent.
for example: people die. not all people have died, but death is an experience that most people are going to have had. generally speaking, death is something all people are going to struggle with. even if not all people have experienced death personally or to their loved ones, most people are going to at least be aware of death, or come across it.
for example: they estimate 1 out of 8 women in the US have been raped. that’s not nearly as many as those who have been sexually assaulted, or who have experienced sexism. even if you don’t experience sexism as sexism, sexism is still going to be a large part of your experience simply because it’s so prevalent.
so, in conclusion: fuck you, for quibbling on immaterial details and ignoring the larger problems that literally kill women every single goddamn day
Please see my long long long long long reply comment below.
Tldr version is that the women who rate men are objectively rare, it revolves around penises from the only example I have, and everyone not them strongly disapproved on many levels. And then a rebuttal on her views on penises courtesy of my father and a PSA on protection.
There’s a fine line between attending to the civility of a discussion and tone policing.
Attending to civility is preventing either side from making threats, kys remarks, jokes about things which are not funny, keeping the discussion focused on relevant topics, and devolving the conversation into an ad hominem shouting match.
Tone policing is telling people to not be angry, or otherwise emotional, because “emotions have no place in a debate,” which is not true. And swearing does not subtract from a conversation; its an important qualifier of intensity: see “fucking garbage bill” vs “garbage bill.” One shows anger and the other annoyance.
If you’re not well practiced in keeping the civility of a conversation without tone policing, I’d recommend not trying to do so, and leave it to the people who know how to do it intuitively.
With the very rare exception of things like the Lulu ap, there is none of the history of rating men the way women casually are rated by others and I don’t want to dismiss Joe’s boorish behavior or make it cute or harmless.
Yes, this is a very complicated social issue in which male dominance shows very clearly, and yeah, it’s mostly males objectifying women simply because they can due to complex social structures. But my idea is that the solution to this isn’t teaching males to stop them from objectifying women, because this is simply not gonna fucking happen lmao, centuries of fucked up hierarchy between sexes and oppression isn’t gonna go anywhere ever. Instead, women should be encouraged to objectify males, take some power in their own hands and thus try to make things a bit more equal.
It’s a similar concept to my body negativity theory, or maybe it’s even a part of it. Instead of forcing the public to accept women without makeup and without fit bodies in the name of body positivity, men should be shamed for not looking good enough. Men should have unrealistic body standards posed in front of them as well. It should be basic for them to put some concealer on in the morning to avoid the “you look tired” comments, just like how it happens to women. But of course for this to work, men first have to be treated as objects, otherwise their looks will never be as important as of a female’s.
I mean fuck. Making things better clearly doesn’t work, we have to try to make things equally bad so that at least we have equality in some ways.
But what about all those Cosmo articles that rate actors by their abs, or olympians by their speedo bulges? I would think that is contributing to societal norms. Plus the comment is ABOUT ONE girl in particular. She can be the exception to any societal norms.
Yeah neither do men. It’s a bullshit TV Show trope that in 36 years neither myself nor the other men I interact with have ever used or even had something similar. Just like you we either find someone hot or not.
As a female, I can say I don’t rate. I might comment on a famous guy I find attractive whom my other friends will either agree that he is, say he doesn’t do it for them, and the friend who basically say they see the appeal but not for them. And me liking girls? Also don’t rate. I’m either attracted to them, get attracted later after talking and loving their personality, or doesn’t appeal to me.
The only women I’ve seen rating guys ever were my biological mother and her friends and it was 0 about looks and all about dicks and yes, other women were not okay with that either. My mother was not a good person either.
I don’t agree with her assessment either because cis women (and trans women who have gone through surgery) are different sizes just like cis men (and trans men who go through either lots of surgery and/or hormones) and what feels like a great match with a former partner might not work for the new one (speaking of this, never ever EVER compare us to your former girlfriend especially if it’s to say they loved this so you must have something wrong with you. Speaking from experience). My dad also went into the TMI department, but as a former hippy with over a hundred female sexual partners (WITH NO COMDOM! HOW DID IT NOT FALL OFF!?!) and had an almost legendary reputation even with a penis of around 5 inches erect which several women laughed at at first, but not for long especially with his (TMI Dad!) long foreplay sessions beforehand. I have also (burn my ears please) had this confirmed by many former lovers. I did really appreciate the education, the healthy framing and explaining of female of body shapes that kept me from having issues with the shape of my own breasts and labia, learning the importance of warming up and care afterwards, the dangers of a lot of products, the positivity in natural smell and look (including washing with Dove and shaving is a fairly new thing which can chafe or even friction burn, so if you do be careful. If you don’t, leave as is or trim with something like scissors if you can be careful or with a men’s electric beard trimmer on a longer setting), and so much more, but I really didn’t need so much detail like the threesome story or that married woman who made you jump out the window when hubby got home early (he was faithful to people he was in a relationship with, but if he was single and they wanted it, he didn’t check their status).
Also, use condoms and/or dental dams (yes people. going down on a vagina haver requires protection too regardless of what arrangement the giver has in their pants). Carry the things. Give them out to your kids and nieces and nephews and cousins and tell them how to tell if condoms are too small (red ring at the base after fun time), how to use a dental dam (and how to make in emergencies), and latex (allergies because OW! that is no freaking fun even if it’s the mild kind). My dad has bad cold sores (herpes), he had crabs several times, so very many yeast infections (yes boys can get them too with uncircumcised usually feeling the burn and circumcised usually being mostly asymptomatic giving it back to their partner over and over like the worst re gift ever), and some strange STD that he got from bio mom (who also slept around) that required him to paint his dick blue with medicine. I also have 1 confirmed brother of unknown name who’s mother married another guy and passed it off as his after moving to another state. This is just what I know. So wrap it up people!
I’ll believe wouldn’t be surprised, but then why? I think you’d be hard pressed to find evidence of Roz numbering people, or any comparable hypocrisy. So then it would have to be because that’s just how you think people work: women who ask not to be treated as objects just tend to be hypocrites. In which case, jeez, go listen to some women instead of just picking up stereotypes from people who hate them.
The same guy that made facebook created hot or not like site called facemash. I don’t have the time to actually research further but whatever. The story of facebook is super backstabby anyway.
like i mean she slept with joe, her standards for dudeflesh are low already. in that i mean she isn’t idealizing some perfect dude who can idealize her ideals and help her fight injustice everywhere: she’s fucking who she wants to fuck because she wants to do it. rating people doesn’t really seem to come into it, imo. it’s not like she was ever ashamed of people knowing who’d she’d fucked. it doesn’t hurt that joe’s hot, but it’s not on the same level.
the lady-rating system is something that has a much more pernicious history going back AGES (legit, in Pride and Prejudice all of the sisters know exactly how attractive they are in relation to one another. creeptastic.). if you want to get Biblical, goes back to Leah and Rachel having to compete against each other for the same dude, who they both married, because their dad was an ass.
to be gender binarist while i’m generalizing, women aren’t socialized to think about men the same way that men are socialized to think about women. we’ve been taught all our lives to see men as people who are more people than us, whereas men are taught to see themselves as the most significant people in any situation. so. like. ladies (generally) might talk about who’s the hottest, but it’s something that’s going to come down to personality as much as looks.
granted, rating dudes is a thing that some groups might do in rebellion against said socialization, but…i honestly don’t see how roz would find the time. like if you care about feminism at all, you’re going to prioritize women, and rating dudes is not really on that agenda. it’s just going back and making everything about men again, which is kind of besides the point.
I once had to QC “Real Bullshit” tm which was a followup to the pet rock.
The raw material was steam sterilized, compacted, freeze dried and hermetically sealed in a poly-carbonate capsule. The raw material supplier mentioned that they also made various specialty products including tea – using a similar process but with a cold washing stage and ending with grinding of the solid plant matter into a powder.
Even if she rates men she probably doesn’t go around telling them their rating, and she certainly doesn’t have a semi-public “do list” with a bunch of ratings on it.
So you’re deciding, with no evidence whatsoever, that Roz is privately guilty of doing what Joe does publicly and that makes her unworthy of sympathy for being publicly called out on Joe’s “to do” ranking for her? You recognize that Joe is being an ass (and that is the mildest we should call this behavior) but figure she probably has it coming because… reasons? I’m with Cerberus. Fuck you indeed.
Actually, I think of Roz as an awful person in general because of the way she treats her sister. How she manipulates people in the not-election. How she treated her teacher when she got what she wanted (abandoning her despite the fact television shows Robin is squatting in Leslie’s house).
All of this has nothing to do with her treatment of the opposite sex or gender relations, though, so I am sorry for that.
Roz is a character I really have a complicated history about because I agree with all of her politics. I also have many fundamentalist (former associates) I’ve tried to lead away to a more inclusive view of the world/less assholish one. Roz coming down on Joyce the way (during an awakening of conscience) she did felt very much like punching down and has colored my opinion of her ever since.
Fine. We’re in agreement that Roz is not the hero in this story. I agree that she has done some awful things that she deserves to be called out for. That in no way justifies or makes acceptable Joe publicly objectifying her in front of the class (that she shouldn’t have been teaching and she handled with aplomb anyway) or referencing a hateful white nationalist to shut down her attempt to deflect that objectification.
And coming down on Joyce may have been overly harsh, but it was not punching down. Joyce was in no way in a disadvantaged opinion. In the case of that class, Joyce coming from a conservative Christian background is the advantaged opinion. While Roz’s anger may not have been productive in the specific case of Joyce, it was sure as hell justified.
I just read your apology to Cerb and will stand down on my complaints about your prior comments vis-a-vis Joe’s rating system. I appreciate your willingness to listen.
I’m of the mind that plotting to out her sister via Leslie is something that’s so calculated that it’s difficult to sympathize with her. I say that thinking Robin is a monstrous person and possibly a sociopath in this universe. I can’t imagine doing that to a sibling–even one whose politics I despise with every core of my being.
Her plan was for Robin to out herself voluntarily – i.e. come out of the closet. She just wasn’t upset when Robin was outed, because it meant she wasn’t going to be re-elected.
Eh, considering Robin, Roz is probably a confident speaker and/or good at hiding her nerves. But she did get pushed into lecturing an entire class without preparation on a subject that has defined a lot of her past actions, complete with follow-up questions from Joe, so that probably hasn’t been helping her. Yeah, given her odd quietness, it seems like she has some temporary performance anxiety. How long will it last?
–oh, right, the republican conservative media lady. I’d blissfully forgotten about her.
Yeah, rate her politics if you want, but don’t rate women, Joe.
She was in the public eye for saying things against Black Lives Matter, and other forms of peaceful protest by black people. She was stupid enough to say “But what did the kkk really even do?” on the Daily Show. Through all of this it was her sharing her pro-choice stance that got her fired from a conservative platform. She tried to rally up support for herself as if people didn’t remember the racist things she said. Which prompted my favorite response from Trevor Noah, “I was so offended that I wanted to protest it. Unfortunately, there’s no type of black people protest that Tomi is comfortable with, so I guess we should just move on.”
Rating people, especially out loud, assumes that you’re the almighty judge of their true inherent worth, and everyone should listen to your awesome judgments. It’s not a very chill thing to do.
You can think someone’s bad, but that’s different from rating. There’s a difference between liking a group of songs and having a top 10’s list. Everyone who likes music has certain songs they like, but creating a top 10’s list is morally wrong. Wait wha
I’d be surprised he knows who she is but I suppose he could watch the daily show or hang out with Roz enough to have heard about her. I’m guessing the latter since he seems to bring her up as someone he knows Roz can’t stand.
I think Joe is fairly observant and politically aware. It’s just he doesn’t WANT to think about these things. He’s determined to make college a nonstop singles bar and learn nothing.
Hang on… If you’re rating yourself however you want, but have to be an eighteen, it’s a paradox unless you want to be an eighteen. At which point, I guess I’ll go with pi divided by zero.
as an adult I rediscovered juice boxes and those little orange crackers that come in the tiny plastic packages (4 to a plastic wrapped bag) that come in boxes of 12+.
Kids food tastes great, guys.
It does make me feel a little self-conscious eating several of the to take the edge off (especially the juice boxes), but fuck it. they taste GREAT!
If I remember from when Dorothy interviewed him post sextape, Joe was actually insecure about the size of his genitalia claiming that it was actually bigger, just obscured because well it was in Roz’s vagina. Odds are he’s probably perfectly normal sized down there but insecure because he thinks either
a) the average penis size is larger than it actually is
or
b) that the larger one’s penis the more manly and sought after one is (which isn’t true, when it comes to genitalia bigger is not always better, especially considering the disparity in size between between him and Roz, if his penis was as big as he seems to want it to be, he could actually probably hurt her, but I haven’t seen any of the slipshines so maybe I’m wrong)
Not just a one-off, they occasionally hooked up (though you’d mostly know that from the anthology slipshine story) for at least a while afterwards… She might have gotten over him during one of these classes, though.
Joe also referred to them as an open relationship in the paper. Normally I’d say he was joking, but I’m not sure Dorothy would put that in her super serious article. Plus Joe doesn’t strike me as saying things like that when he just say he’s still single, ladies.
Between that and more examples than I could possibly link to, I’d say that if this is “genuinely caring about consent”, then KKK are indeed also just “genuinely caring about our society” (or whatever the hell they claim to be whenever they state they’re not racist scumbags).
“Geeeeeez. Every class session is the frigging same. In, out, in, out, orgasm, repeat. Is it too much to ask to change it up with some PowerPoint instead?”
I like to think she’s just judging his behavior but I do wonder how much was Roz remembering she’s actually slept with Joe and everyone knows it. Which means she’s been undercut publicly in front of her peers. I do think Joe isn’t being deliberately mean, though. It’s just Roz is up against a redheaded British woman of considerable evil and charm. She’s hard to top.
Oh shit you just won every internet, now there are no internets left for the rest of us, I guess I’ll have to read books by candlelight for the rest of the evening.
But she’s been in the news this week(proving Willis has precognitive powers) because she did an interview for Playboy, and for ending her dispute with Glenn Beck.
She’s currently working to try and incite violence against college students and supporting a group of violent nazis with a history of domestic assault to go to areas seen as “liberal” so they can beat up folks while the cops watch and laugh.
And she regularly shows up on Fox News to actively try and incite genocide against non-white people. While also writing a regular column where she does the same.
It’s a problem i have with making mockery of a lot of present political figures. There’s really nothing to joke about them. Dan Quayle jokes are funny. Jokes about people trying to incite terrorism but allowed because it’s against the “wrong” kind of people is the prelude to the Handmaiden’s Tale.
I encountered a Dan Quayle quote this week (“…best educated American people…”) and had a wave of nostalgia for when “President Quayle” was considered a scary thing to say. Those were good time. I didn’t know it at the time, but those were very good times indeed.
I remember thinking something like that during the (2nd) Bush years. Now I think that about those days and I’m dreading someday looking back on the Trump years as “Well, he really wasn’t that bad compared to ‘X'”.
Of course, I’m not likely to be one of the few survivors stumbling through the irradiated wastelands, so I probably don’t have to worry.
It’s hard to say. Possibly more likely to get nasty stuff passed. OTOH, less likely to stumble into a nuclear war or other civilization ending disaster.
Another fun current events note regarding the Robin storyline is there’s currently a circuit split amongst the appellate courts as to whether the Civil Rights Act applies to sexual orientation and gender identity. The 7th Circuit said yes and the 2nd Circuit said no. The 7th Circuit covers Indiana, however, so until the Supreme Court resolves the split one way or the other, Robin’s campaign is quite meaningless as these are protected classes in Indiana.
It would probably end up like where Ethan tried to lecture the Store Nerd only for the Store Nerd to point out Ethan was a kidnapper. Thus, the entire strip crashing. FYI – Ethan was a lot better character when he was pure evil.
“…..and here you will find my earliest work, which I called ‘1st Base’s Bassist’s Basest Bas Relief.’ It is a bas relief of a human sitting on a toilet, playing on his smart phone.”
I’m going to say it, there’s nothing wrong with feeling different levels of attraction for different people.
Quantifying that difference is probably a slippery slope though.
Putting that quantified list out there for public observation where people are free to use it as a simple, easy, inherently flawed way to judge their worth as a person is inherently dangerous.
The problem with rating people isn’t so much that the system isn’t good enough, it’s because it reduces somebody’s complexity/humanity to some number. People really don’t like being reduced to some scant few aspects like that.
It’s okay if you like one classmate more than another. But it’s not chill to say that one classmate is, like, more inherently worthwhile than another.
Welp I screwed up my words. I meant to say that from an evolutionary stand point having a sex drive seems logical for a species to survive, but within our species is both highly irrational in how it affects people and that some people simply do not have it (a sex drive) either. I in no way meant to imply that rating a person is a good thing, and would like to deeply apologize if I did.
…
This is why it normally takes me a half hour to come up with a good joke: I screw up the deliver horribly. Sorry.
There are asexual animals as well. It’s been observed in sheep, bonobos*, etc…
*The bonobos one is said because bisexual orgies is how bonobos determine in-group and out-group so ace bonobos end up having to go it alone because no group trusts them because they don’t orgy with the rest of them.
It may actually be, but there are so many complex variables (evolution, upbringing, brain chemistry, environment…) that you couldn’t begin to quantify it in any rational form.
It wouldn’t even be so bad to quantify levels of attraction someone feels. The problem comes from pinning that number on the person in question.
1. It implies it’s a constant property of them, so how everyone should feel about them, when even one person need not feel the same attraction all the time.
2. Worse, it tends to become a statement of their worth, as if all they were for is being attractive. Especially for women.
I do admit, it’s kind of interesting Joe points out a demonstrably not ten person is so because of her personality and beliefs not looks. Is this a sign of Joe’s tastes or because he’s trying to dig into Roz.
I can’t remember which kind Joe really had, but maybe its the Barney-kind? The crazier a woman is, the hotter she has to be to compensate for that and still be attractive? (and ideally you’d want more “hot” and less “crazy”…)
For Joe, that wouldn’t stop her from being a “10”. It would at most (if Joe cared) just earn her 10 an asterisk after it, and a footnote of “hatefuck”.
This protest is absolutely disgusting. The ageism, we can budge on. Bringing your own food from home, though? That’s actively circumventing the cinema’s only real source of income, and we simply can’t allow that. Now, you’re going to get legal pushback from the cinemas, who will now be demanding a mandatory search right at the door, for exactly this reason.
Dudes, do we really need to “notallmen” this? Yes, people shouldn’t be treated like numbers, but there’s only one gender that has a giant creepy and dangerous culture built around the practice.
And hell, she’s not even saying that men shouldn’t rate women. She’s saying that Joe shouldn’t rate women, because that’s what he’s doing. Like if he was doing the same dehumanizing bullshit to men as well, I’m sure Roz would call him out on it as well, but he’s not.
Toxic masculinity is the one where you force yourself to be capital-M Manly at all costs, violently rejecting anything you arbitrarily decide is UnManly for fear of being corrupted and turned gay, right?
well: yes: this: but also that he was paying attention to her talking about politics to know that this is exactly the kind of thing that would set her off
which is not that charming, considering tomi lahren, so….yeah
I admire that Roz is staunchly doing her best to substitute-teach the class that was totally sprung on her. That’s some courage, right there, and she’s maintaining her composure vs. Joe and everything.
I did not expect her to do that. I thought she’d snarl, throw the lesson plan on the floor and stalk out.
Instead, she taught the class. Not in depth. Because she got through the lesson plan with time left over.
But she gets points from me.
As much as we may not want to admit it, We’re all ALWAYS ranking people, even subconsciously. It’s just sorta rude to vocalize it.
Hell I rank myself.
I’m a solid 6. Not all that ugly but not exactly charismatic and definitely grating in large quantities.
We totally do! We’re judging machines, after all. But it’s super rude to imply that your system is, like, the Truth, and/or that everyone should listen to your awesome judgments on them.
Exactly. Just keep your pre-decided list of pros and cons unless y’know…someone’s asking you “hey whaddya think of ____”. And even then I’d probably just list the pros and cons without saying my mental rating, even though I’m sure you can gleam where they’d fall based on that.
I didn’t realize you meant that there was a specific number attached that allows you to compare people to each other. How do you even compare them, do they take some kind of standardized test?
That’s not exactly what I meant at all. I’m more saying the appeal of anyone is subjective and we’re all constantly judging people based on our own biases. We’re just quantifiably aware of the amount someone appeals to us compared to what some mythical PERFECT person would be.
Interesting! I don’t notice myself thinking that way, I just know that I like people a little, or I like them a lot, or I think they’re the cat’s meow. Perfection hasn’t entered into it for me.
Not me either, to be honest. I don’t even think “the perfect person” would be palpable. But I think I mentally have all the features of a person I’d love mentally in my subconscious. Everyone has positive AND negative features so obviously you’d never meet a perfect mate. And the more someone meets all the features I find attractive/makes me realize things I find attractive will certainly have more of an immediate appeal.
Even when it comes to friends I certainly have lots of friends I love hanging out with significantly more than others and though, while I’m hanging out with them I’m not thinking about all the features that make them more approachable to me or want to create a solid “number” for their appeal, I sincerely believe that I do have a subconscious “rank” for just how much I enjoy them.
I think there’s a difference here between how our culture looks at women and how our culture looks at men. For women, there’s a set ‘ideal’ that they are supposed to strive towards, that men are supposed to be attracted to with only minor variations allowed. And even those variations are encouraged to be incorporated into the system, not outside of it.
Meanwhile for men, they are allowed to be the way they are and there are compliments to be had for any way they are. There is attractiveness to be found in all of them, and while some women push back with their own objectifying rating system, it’s not universal and media doesn’t push it on women the same way (and when it does, it’s so blatantly off-base that it doesn’t get internalize in most cases).
tl;dr the thing you’re talking about is not your fault in any way (so long as you aren’t consciously and deliberately reinforcing it), but it’s absolutely exactly the problem
(well, not keeping it in check ESCALATES the problem, but its existence is a manifestation of the same problem already)
There’s an ideal for men too. It’s just not the same as what it is for women.
A man’s ability to hold a job or provide, How confident or assertive they are, Not being fat, Not being effeminate, not being unattractive, Not being weak. Not being whiny. Not being unathletic or being overly sensitive.
I’ve never heard anyone be complimented for being poor, or fat or ugly. Granted fat men can be successful, but it’s never understated that a fat man is usually treated as a JOKE first and foremost.
The idea that men don’t have an ideal that is thrust upon them is just…incorrect and almost hurtful. I’m not saying it’s equivalent but it is not at all non-existent. Everyone has issues, with their body, with how they’re treated, with how society sees them, and the idea that men don’t deal with that is incorrect. I’m speaking firsthand here.
eh. waiting for the other person to make a move isn’t always the best of strategies. but it’s weird! because sex was just realistically not an option for me for a long, long time! nothing, if nothing, puts a downer on your sex drive than your dad telling you exactly which of the kids in your class you can date while he works at the school. nothing.
lol. fairytale hipster trash princess is my current aesthetic
Personally I wish it was more common for ladies to make the first move. I’m super shy, but I’m sorta always expected to put my heart on the line and take the initiative. The anxiety of getting rejected can get pretty intense. Especially when you’re batting 0 for..6 years.
mmmmmmm i mean like part of it is that there’s so much pressure involved in dating and romance and finding The One. like maybe if every single time you weren’t putting your heart on the line, there wouldn’t be so much pressure, you know?
idk something about human connection requires something unselfish and selfless, i think – putting yourself out there without consideration for self while considering others. OR SOMETHING. the analysis. the discourse. the academic theory of human interaction.
I understand your point of view – I think- but it sounds as if you are dismissing that some people just can’t not put their heart into it. To each their own, but I’d feel very uncomfortable to date someone I’d not even like up to a certain level, and it is very hard for me to reach that level, as everything is emotion-based with me. Even if my head logically tells me: This is a nice guy, you share interests, he’s very polite, you have fun – but if even a low feeling of attraction is there, or if I feel uncomfortable with advance, I’d never could just get over it and try it anyway. I don’t tick like that.
Plus putting your heart out doesn’t always mean you’re searching for “The One”. It’s not as if people decide to fall in love with someone, or like them more than they are liked back – I think most people aren’t capable of controlling their emotions like that, only the actions they take upon them.
*”if NOT even a low feeling of attraction is there, or if I feel uncomfortable with advanceS FROM their side”… (yeesh, sorry, I should proofread my stuff more often!)
ehhhhh mostly here I mean that it’s probably more healthy to go into dating looking for friendships with a side order of flirting and potential dessert of romance, because that’s less stressful for everyone. demands less, promises more. I mean, the heart wants what the heart wants, and you never get anything if you don’t try, but it’s still…difficult
…I’m really not? Like, I’m aware of “I like this person a lot” vs “I like this person a little” vs “I don’t care for this person at all,” but the only time I assign that a numerical value is performance reviews at work.
That’s what I meant by “subconsciously”. There’s features in everything that we like. Features we dislike. What appeals to us, what we find unappealing.
There’s an AMOUNT to how much I like everything, from food, to games, Songs, animals and people.
I’m not going out of my way to purposely and meticulously quantify people with a solid number. But deep down I know that if I absolutely had to I could probably come up with a number for how much something or someone appeals to me. I wouldn’t go out of the way to do that, nor would I make that knowledge public if I did, but deep down I know I can mentally quantify someone’s appeal from my perspective.
Liking or disliking someone varying amounts isn’t the issue. Having the ABILITY to assign a level of like or dislike to a person isn’t the issue. Consciously quantifying “I like this girl this much” into a numerical value and ranking her against the other girls you know IS the issue.
I don’t disagree with that sentiment. Trying to quantify people in general “unless I guess you’re hiring them for a job and you’re ranking them on their ability to provide for that job or something” is pretty uncalled for. Especially to the extent of creating a physical list.
Honestly, Because I do think that if I don’t draw a line in the sand, people will unilaterally decide that things that are “bad” are “unacceptable”.
Going out of your way to rank people, telling someone what you think their ranking is and using it as a way to de-legitimize how multifaceted they are as a person and look at them as a piece of meat is shitty.
At the same time, I understand that people will always have tastes. People will always form opinions of people before meeting them, and people may have their own personal opinions on people, and as long as they keep it to themselves I have no issue with that. And I worry those feelings will be identified as “being a shitty person” and people who aren’t doing that feel like there’s something wrong with them. That they’re a horrible person. They become afraid to form opinions that may cause people to hate them. And their self loathing grows more and more until they parrot whatever they hear without thinking through why they feel that way.
What Joe’s doing is definitely a dick move but I kinda have a pet peeve when things I believe are simply aspects of human nature are shown to be “wrong” and therefore you’re bad. It’s a rhetoric religion uses a lot and I don’t like it.
Don’t go around ranking people, telling them what they’re worth, and deciding their worth based on your preconcieved notions, but don’t feel inherently guilty if you’re just keeping it to yourself.
I’m sure not everyone will agree with me on that and I’m fine with that. It’s just my personal mentality that hates alienating anyone or making them feel like garbage.
See, I kind of feel like I should comment here that well, there are exceptions to people forming opinions of people they don’t know as well.
I mean, I’m constantly running the numbers as it were on everyone I interact with, but thats more because I have difficulties pinning down anything about other people beyond trying to analyze how they react to things and what their beliefs are and every observable trait or action or sentence I can, because people are a blank slate to me and its mostly out of paranoia and fear making me feel like I have to figure out enough about them to at least find out if its safe to interact with them or not.
That said, I hate numbers and all I usually have to go off of is my own completely nonsense aesthetics for the attraction end of things… so it basically is more a sliding scale of whether I can trust someone enough to be a friend or at least not someone who might intentionally hurt me in either a physical, social or emotional way. So either a + or a -, that I never tell them, and can change over time and only results in me completely writing them off if they’re consistantly toxic enough that I can’t afford to risk the potential costs it would take to let them continue to have a chance for redemption.
…aaaaaand here’s where the impasse lies, because what Joe’s doing is not human nature, as demonstrated by all the people who fuckin’ manage not to do it. What Joe’s doing is dehumanizing and gross and yes, unacceptable.
And for the record: I never have a problem with making garbage people feel like garbage. Perhaps they will get the hint and stop being garbage.
The problem is that the ‘Joe’ ranking systems, as opposed to a vague ‘I like her about half as much as I like the other woman’ system of personal attraction, is that it reduces an entire human being’s worth down to whether or not the ranker would bone them. Their potential contribution to society? The depth of their internal life? The people they love? All irrelevant. Their worth is just whether or not the ranker would bang. It is gross and dehumanising, like women are just carrying cases for vaginas.
Just because you do something doesn’t mean everyone else does. I can’t even rank things as simple as my favourite foods never mind the ridiculous complexity that is other people.
Well, I’m impressed. Roz actually went over the lesson topic Leslie had planned. And quicker than expected. Admittedly that’s probably because Leslie had some things not written down that she wanted to include and discuss, but good sign as to Roz’s teaching ability. Also, someone kick Joe’s ass as hard as possible since Joyce isn’t here to do so. Because
1) you shouldn’t rate anyone
2) if you have a creepy list thing keep it to yourself
3) don’t insult someone that it’s common knowledge you had sex with like that
4) don’t insult said person in public
and
5) I thought you already considered Roz a ten because she suggested recording you two having sex?
3) Roz isn’t allowed to complain about her low rank because she has to reject the ranking system entire.
5) IIRC, he was thinking of upgrading her to an 8 because of it, but hadn’t committed to that promotion.
Joe, she was literally saying you could go before you yelled at her.
Also the professor walked out, so I think you could go whenever you wanted anyway.
“If a person has ugly thoughts, it begins to show on the face. And when that person has ugly thoughts every day, every week, every year, the face gets uglier and uglier until you can hardly bear to look at it.
A person who has good thoughts cannot ever be ugly. You can have a wonky nose and a crooked mouth and a double chin and stick-out teeth, but if you have good thoughts it will shine out of your face like sunbeams and you will always look lovely.”
Tomi Lahren is one of the ugliest people I have ever seen.
Also plenty of stories about British Child Abuse, but that seems to be the theme of most British Children’s literature?
Lots of good thoughts in his books though, even if the stories tend to focus on horrible people and tragic lives in order to put the thoughts out there.
Nice in theory and in metaphor, but wholly untrue and harmful in many ways. You can’t always see it in someone’s face. Lovely people can be awful. The best people in the world can be ugly.
We all know this intellectually, when we stop and think about it, but the attitude creeps into our subconscious.
I believe that was supposed to be the point – that you can have lovely features and looks, but if you’re awful, people will look at and react to you like you’re awful. Whereas with the opposite, people will look at you and react to you like you’re lovely.
(To be judgemental of a cast of fictional characters and their decisionmaking, that is. Rating cartoons based on how bangable they are is kinda weird.)
Yeah, fuck you Joe. That just gave me traumatic flashbacks to what literally all the boys in my school were like. That was SO long ago, but it still shakes me to my core sometimes, all these years later. How these assholes would rate women like we’re not actually people, but just a collection of body parts put on this Earth for their enjoyment. Or, as it was in my case, as an object to ridicule and make fun of and make a list of to pass around and laugh about the pain that caused me.
Makes me sick that this still happens. I have young family members still in school and this shit STILL FUCKING HAPPENS. Grinds my gears. Ugh. So yeah, again, fuck you Joe.
a)ew
b)that sounds humiliating and terrible and i feel for your teenaged self, but it’s not the same when girls literally get valued by how attractive they can present and are being rated pretty much every second of their lives
I think that’s just a defense mechanism. No one likes to feel like they’re “the bad guy”. It’s advantageous to play the victim because if you’re not a “victim” you’re an “oppressor”. It is again one of the reasons I briefly formed a bad habit of bringing up my race when forming an argument. Enough “Men are scum” rhetoric is eventually enough to drive one nuts, especially if you feel like you’ve been personally wronged in a similar way.
The idea that women are valued by how attractive they are is reinforced by women. Girls list how attractive you are vs. someone else, guys grade you on how bad they’d like to see you naked, not how you compare to someone else.
I’m so annoyed at myself sometimes that this still bothers me so much so many years later. But I guess some mental scars inflicted in youth have a way of being really deep and kinda permanent. Sigh.
Suffered something similar – being reduced only to my body and being laughed at for it overdeveloping at some certain point in my teenage years- and it still sometimes haunts me up to this day. So…? *offers hug*
Please show me in comment where I said that women can’t do the same thing. I literally relayed an experience I had in school that was traumatic for me and expressed frustration about how this type of thing still happens. And in my experience it was boys who did this. And it often still are boys. As my 16 y/o male cousin tells me about, for example. So don’t ‘oh please’ me.
I am very sorry that that happened to you. That sucks. I can relate. Literally. Bullies suck, no matter what gender they might be. I’ve also had female bullies. But that is not the point I was trying to make, relating my very similar experience to today’s strip of this very fine webcomic.
Haha, I can’t watch things that are too bloody and scary, but maybe I’ll watch Frozen or something lol. I mean, a repressed snow queen fucking shit up has got to count
that is very fair!! i have a limited stomach for gore myself. FROZEN WORKS PERFECTLY IF IT WORKS FOR YOU. *thumbs up*
for me Labyrinth is one of those comfort movies. limited gore, David Bowie, genuine character development, and muppets. and also like…magic and right words and *shivers*
spoilers: there are puppets that take off their heads!! And they’re gonna take off our heroine’s head, but she escapes. But they’re still at the party in the end, what’s up with that?
Does she ever stop killing people and blowing things up? It’s been a while, so I don’t remember if the movie addresses that or just ends with her walking off in a genocidal huff.
Or she won’t particularly care what you think of her, because she knows she’s rad, and she isn’t bein’ rad for your pleasure. She’ll also conclude that you’re kind of a dick.
A couple of months ago, a woman asked me to rate the books in her book case, and I had a really hard time doing it (she had some of my favorites in there). People are more complex and fascinating (and, at times, aggravating) than books, I don’t get how people can be rated…
O, by the way, it was an actual, non-euphemistic book case
I’m pretty sure part of the issue with rating people is that to actually come up with a one to ten rating in any decently quick amount of time, it becomes necessary to start making assumptions about them and/or narrowing the amount of traits that are considered for the ratings.
Sometimes both.
Which I mean, sometimes “ratings” make sense. Like who scored the most touchdowns or whatever for sports cards.
Making a codified list of what order of priority to “do” people in as if it’d be necessary to know who to pick in case such a situation where such a choice is necessary though, kind of feels super questionable.
I mean, in that regard I have heard that sort of gossip from both men and women of various sexualities. Though most of the time its more of a “Celebrity A or Celebrity B, which would you rather have sex with?” sort of thing.
If nothing else, society has a greater expectation that men seem to feel they’re supposed to live up to when it comes to this sort of potentially toxic behavior however, so they have more leeway to behave poorly and more reasons to feel like they have to do so or someone will take away their precious “man card”.
Aww, you want to believe that women who are offended by rating systems are just mad you don’t think they’re hot! You want to believe literally any random woman on the street is deeply invested in your opinion of her looks! You want to believe that your rating of a woman has anything to do with whether or not you personally find her attractive! How cute.
But here’s the thing, friend — the rating system is not about women at all. It has zero chance of ever affecting us in any positive way, and women who hear that you rate them at all are all united in feeling vaguely dehumanized and creeped out, plus hurt if they mistakenly thought you were a friend.
The rating system is not for us. And it’s not doing anything positive for you, either — not even for your sex life.
Because the rating system turns what should be a personal judgment (“am I interested in this person?”) and turns it into a pseudo democracy. If you tell a fellow asshole that Woman X is an 8 for you, he’ll undoubtedly argue: nah bro she’s a 6 at best, c’mon!!
Pause for a moment to reflect. Ask yourself why you’re allowing your fellow asshole to argue with you about whether or not you want to be intimate with Woman X. Why does he get to police your attraction level? Huh. That seems odd, doesn’t it?
But it isn’t odd. It’s the entire point of the system: taking your personal and potentially private choices and turning them into a dystopian game, where rather than getting to meet a cool person and enjoy her company (in whatever capacity), you’re fixated instead on being sure that you only “score” women your fellow assholes would be jealous of.
And this causes a lot of guys to avoid women they’re actually interested in (as well as avoid admitting to being interested in more than just women), because they’re in pursuit of the “best” “score”. It ultimately leads to PUAs who self-describe as bored and lonely, because sex purely for the accolades of other assholes is pretty empty.
I assume you’re not actually one of these guys; I assume you were trying to pull a “it’s funny because it’s true!” joke, but don’t actually subscribe to pickup “artistry” yourself.
But the joke rests on these incredibly toxic assumptions.
Don’t rate women, Joe. You’re only making yourself unhappy.
Like, yeah, this is the thing about the rating system. How it punishes any non-normative attraction and individual desire and promotes an unhealthy way of looking not only at women but one’s own attraction. The way it treats sex and sexual attraction as something performative to other men.
And how it frequently leads to this unfulfilling awfulness out of this toxic idea that this is what it takes to be a man.
Like, as a kid, these were the things used to justify brutalizing me. Like, me not playing the game, cause I had no sexual attraction to throw in, meant things and that meant they felt justified hurting me.
Still now as an adult, this idea that sexual attraction is a public performance for straight dudes puts me at risk of getting killed. Because if someone has a passing naughty thought about me or goes “ooh, she’s hot”, they immediately start worrying about how the “boys” will handle that and tease them about it and so fill a strong need to reassert their masculinity in other, usually violent, ways and punish me for “causing it” by “deceiving” them.
It’s not just a bad system because sexist. It’s also bad because of how harmful it is for the men using it. And for men who are alloromantic, the whole system it is plugged into is based on reducing women to their physical attributes and sexual utility, which means these guys even if they have “success” frequently find themselves unfulfilled because they have romantic cravings they are actively trying to undermine in favor of this homosocial performance.
Trans women most definitely get the brunt of the backlash for exactly the reasons you described And it is seriously also ultimately bad for men, if in a subtler long-term way.
Hell, it ALSO hurts aromantic people, I would argue, because they’re still boxing themselves in to that super narrow “I won’t have sex with anyone my friends wouldn’t agree is an 8 or higher” box, missing out on people they could have enjoyed themselves with and sapping a lot of the pleasure out of the encounters they DO have. No one benefits from performative attraction.
A couple of folks up there chimed in with “I’m a woman and I do this too” — congratulations, if you really do*, on ruining intimacy for yourselves by making it into a competitive sport where your peers get to shame you out of your interest in people who fail to make “”the grade””.
*I say “if” because some folks up there are trying to compare the 1-10 scale with questions like “does my partner have a stable job”, which… can be a matter of survival, not just personal preference, and I haven’t yet met a group of women who weren’t okay with differences of opinion on what is hot. Which is part of the problem, albeit not the only part.
… So… yeah. My government just passed a law to kill me and everyone I love today while the President made an EO to make it so an emergency care worker can deny me service. So today’s reaction might be a bit more raw and a bit less forgiving than usual. I apologize for the inconvenience.
Panel 1: Oh, Roz, I have so many feels here for her. Like, I’ve been in her shoes, thrust into handling a class with no training, no preparation, simply because the person who was supposed to be running it abandoned it. And the thing about teaching is… it’s hard and it’s way harder when you’re the same age as the folks you’re trying to reach and they have no respect whatsoever for you because of that.
Like, Roz was thrown to the wolves here and it looks like she may have navigated that as best she could, but this never should have happened. Like I get why Leslie ran off but Leslie owes Roz like a ginormous chocolate cake and a boat for this.
Panel 2: … Okay, let’s be frank. Joe is not my favorite person. And he’s not my favorite person for a lot of reasons. The way he’s every shitty douchebro who thinks a Gender Studies class is something to disrupt and destroy when that hostility to even recognizing sexism is the reason we voted in a fascist who is going to kill us all. The acephobic “fixing” comment he made about Joyce that has been the source of so many corrective rapes against the ace community. The fact that he’s a serial harasser.
And of course the way he reduces women to numbers and to their utility to his dick. As if getting him off was their only usefulness and purpose.
And that’d be bad on any day of the week. But right now, I want to climb into the comic and rip his still beating heart out of his chest, because right now… the US House of Representatives just passed a bill making being raped a pre-existing condition that bans you from accessing healthcare ever again in order to give a “win” to a child-molester and all while whining openly about how “unfair” it is that cis white men have to pay for prenatal care.
This shit where women are just the sexually performative role we can play for men is tiring and upsetting most days, but right now? Fuck that shit. Fuck the way we are expected to lose all our rights and die because of angry white men getting pissed at the idea that one of us got “uppity” and tried to ascend to the highest office of the land.
And it’s even worse because he’s doing this shit to her, harassing her in what is a hellish situation for anyone, putting her down because she’s a woman in power that he thinks he can tear down for selfish gains, when she’s a person who’s currently sleeping with him.
Like, that open violent disrespect for one’s own sexual partners that is so rife in toxic masculinity is vomitous and makes me feel so hard for women and femme folk who sleep with men, because this sexist shit is rampant and expected.
Because actually liking and respecting your sexual partners as equals and people is “gay”.
So yeah… Joe can step on all the Legos and then step off a cliff into a burning volcano right now for all I care.
I am so sorry for the shit that’s going down in American polictics at the moment. I’m sitting here in my relatively privileged European bubble and am completely in shock how downright evil your farce of a goverment is. *sends you and your friends and your country all the love and good vibes*
I honestly can’t agree with you more about Joe. Also, *hugs* don’t apologize for any perceived “inconvenience” that you might add. Because right now? I honestly don’t know if I could respect you more. Because right now is fucking hell for a lot of people including you. And you have the strength to keep going on and commenting here anyways. So I’m just going to say what I’ve said to my three best friends and roommates: If there’s anything at all I can do to help, just ask. If venting here helps you in any way, shape, or form, do it. If talking to someone through the comments helps, I’m willing to help. Just…I hope you can stay safe. I mentioned yesterday I’m trying to do my best to help fight back. All that is left is to hope that some senators have a conscience and that a judge strikes down that EO asap. *hugs* And if you and your fiancé feel you need to leave: do it. You deserve better than this bullshit. And you deserve to live somewhere safe, where you can live a long time happily. *hugs again* You’re not alone. You deserve better.
….
And I’m going to have to give a similar talk to so many people tomorrow. They need to hear that I’ll be there. I wish it wasn’t so. I wish none of this had happened. I’m…I’m sorry.
See, I want to believe that Joe is actually capable of being a decent person deep down and its just that the only “acceptable” coping method he’s found is by being an emotionally detached douchebro who tries not to think too hard about anything….
But at best that just means he’s a disappointment like 9 times out of 10. His family issues may help explain things, but honestly it doesn’t justify any of it, or make him less of a douche for acting the way he does.
I mean, as much as I dislike Roz for how she acts, this might be like the one comic so far where I’m actually proud of her for handling Joe as well as she does.
I’m sorry, Cerberus, I truly am. I’m deeply worried for many of my friends and family right now as well as all the people who think will directly effect. I thought and hoped this was dead or that some sort of fight would happen but, no, it’s just vile and you have my deepest sympathies.
Thanks, it’s hard, because the sheer glee at the prospect of killing folks like me is just… and so many nazis not being shy about how they continue to support this vile shit because it’s “showing” liberals for their crimes of recognizing trans people as people and treating them with respect.
I don’t know if it’ll get better or worse but I’ll try and spread as much support around as possible. Thank you for your presence on these boards as I know people who look to you for advice and respect your views. You’ve also helped me re-evaluate several opinions of my own even as a liberal. Thank you and I’ll try to be more active.
I’m so sorry Cerberus. This is so vile. The pre-existing conditions just make no sense. I read someone on Twitter say that it had the level of an Illuminati plot to get rid of the population and it really, really looks like it (C-section can get you out of health insurance ? Whaaaat ?).
Be safe. (Is it okay to say “be safe” when other people are actively trying to forbid you to be ?)
All the appropriate gestures of support.
Yeah, it’s all so so bad. But yeah, I made it through last night without hurting myself and I have therapy today so we can formulate an action plan for holding it together, so I’m calling that a win.
*hugs* I….can’t figure out how to even put together words to respond to a lot of that, but um, try your best to not die, okay? I’m not sure well wishes and concern are actually worth much, but yeah, hopefully you can stay safe and stuff.
I hope you don’t die. I hope your friends don’t die. I hope my many american friends don’t die. I hope nobody has to die for this horrible fucking bill.
You are loved. There are people who very strongly prefer your life to your death.
There’s some mildly good news in that its sounding like the Senate might start from scratch rather than trying to pass or even modify the House’s version:
Thankfully, Senators are far less secure since they don’t have districts to gerrymander, and the GOP majority is far narrower, so there’s still hope.
Everybody needs to contact your senators, regardless of party (at least one Dem in a red state has signaled he’ll vote in favor of it) and check BBCC’s link below.
I’m fully bracing them to still come up with a garbage bill, and then act like “moving left of the House bill” counts as being moderate or “reaching across the aisle”, even though that will be complete horse shit. At least some of the media will no doubt buy into that nonsense. People need to shut it down immediately.
And seriously, I don’t care if I have to wait fifty years, or what he does between now and then, even if the bill dies in the Senate. When Paul Ryan dies, I’m not even going to wait for the funeral to end before pissing on his grave.
I’d piss on the fucker right now but
a) I live in California and can’t afford to travel to D.C.
and
b) for all I know the prick is like Trump and would enjoy the experience
…
Sorry. One of my best friends and roommates got completely drunk for the first time in his life because of the EO and the Bill and the fact he’s openly bi and currently dating a gay man, so they’re both in danger of losing their healthcare, so I’ve been up all night making sure he and his boyfriend don’t end up drowning in their own vomit of something, and spent the morning helping them both in and out of the bathroom. Combined with my own reaction to both of these crimes against humanity earlier in the comment section and I’m about to snap. Ranting a little is helping me stay relatively sane with all the madness hurting the people around me.
…
Sorry about that.
Through everything, I couldn’t help but smile at step on all the legos. It’s such an evocative and personal little peeve to put in. So often once politics is mentioned, writers try so hard to scrub all trace of their individuality from their voice, as if it’s something to be treated separately from themselves. I admire how much you know better. I hope that’s ok to say.
You’re one of my favorite posters to read here, and nobody deserves what is happening. Hugs from me too; I wish there was more I could do help stop all this needless hell.
Okay, off topic of the strip, but important. Feel free to delete if necessary, Willis.
I saw a lot of people yesterday wishing they could help with the AHCA thing. There are actually some things you can do. Even if you don’t live in the US, you can spread information about what friends in the US can do. I have the important stuff here :http://blenderbender1811.tumblr.com/post/160322231510/not-over-yet
Also, for those who want real time updates on what can be done, this is the political staffer who’s info I used for the post: https://twitter.com/Celeste_pewter
“Even if you don’t live in the US” – ah, brilliant! It’s uncomfortable to live somewhere where none of this is happening (and, I hope and pray, would not ever happen, but I’m less sure of that than I used to be), and thus have no way to promise to do something that will hopefully help those it’s affecting. I’ll definitely tell everyone I know.
And all the hugs to you, Cerberus. Your usual calm, in the face of things I don’t think I could avoid blasting people for, only emphasises how COMPLETELY HORRIBLE this set of circumstances is for you, that it’s wrecked you this badly. Be safe.
As a born and raised Canadian, I feel that. I’ve spent a lot of time since November screaming bloody murder for people to call about stuff like this on tumblr (pretty much all my Facebook friends are Canadian, or I’d post there too). Social media is good for spreading the word.
Panel 3: I feel so bad for Roz here. Like, she’s been harassed by a lover during a rough time and no one is even bothering to speak in her defense. She’s left alone, in the spotlight with someone she is sexually active with treating her like a piece of shit and she’s expected to take it.
And that eyeball. You can tell that she’s internalizing it. That instead of re-evaluating Joe’s shittiness, she’s beating up on herself for sleeping with him. For enjoying what he brings to a good sexy time when this is how he treats her outside of it.
And I just want to hug her and whisk her away to a country that doesn’t suck.
Panel 4: Very diplomatic attempt to defuse a shitty situation. Which is actually a really good teacher skill. After all, you can’t really let them see you break when you’re up in front.
Panel 5: … I can’t.
Like, in this comic’s world, they are all trapped in the hell we all are. Tomi Lahren and the rest of her nazi ilk are touring around “liberal” cities looking for folks to beat up while the cops hold down the folks they want to kill.
Oh sorry, did you all think she just disappeared into the aether? That she’s not showing up on Fox every couple of days to sell a literal genocide against non-white people? That she’s not doing her level best to kill anyone who doesn’t look like her? Yeah, no.
So yeah, Joe invoked the name of a literal nazi who openly and repeatedly writes missives about killing all latinx people like Roz is just to “win” a point against her and get the upper hand in his vile little piece of theatre.
Cause ya know, wacky distraction and dehumanizing of women. So great and awesome.
Like, this shit is pure fucking evil that he’s doing. It’s extra evil right now and Roz is a fucking saint for not tackling him to the ground and beating his face in with that chair behind her.
And yet those folks are so shockingly absent and silent now that a woman has been prosecuted and found guilty and is facing potential jail time for laughing at AG Sessions.
I.e. the thing free speech was actually meant to protect before internet libertarians tried to make it about protecting against folks being mean to nazis.
We already have Lauren Southern. She spews a lot of vile, bigoted crap, just this side of the hate speech laws, but goes south of the border when she wants to cheer on violent fascist thugs while wearing a “MAGA” combat helmet while surrounded by Nazi bodyguards, and yes all of this is literal. She and Tomi would probably carpool. Also, we’re full up on shitty human beings, thanks.
And again – Leslie set him up to it. The way she handed over the lesson to Roz – not with encouragement and a reminder to the rest of the class to be on their best behavior, but with a dare to Roz – was an open invitation to the rest of the class to take whatever shot they would like at her.
She didn’t intend to, of course, and she will rightly be horrified once the dust settles, but what Roz is going through right now is because Leslie put her here.
I still think… desperately hope… that Roz will do something good of this lesson – because she deserves a fair chance to prove her teaching skills and gender studies chops.
She did and I’m really thankful for it, but it’s nothing compared to the lesson she could have held given the chance to prepare and proper encouragement.
Holy shit what fuck? I’d never even heard of Tomi Lahren until to day, and now that I have and looked up some basic info…Joe’s really pulling this bullshit? Like, good God the fact Roz doesn’t beat his brains in is so impressive. I wouldn’t have blamed her for breaking that deal she’s standing behind over his head.
Panel 6: And it’s getting to her. You see the anger in her eyes. The disbelief that he’d be so callously fucked up beyond even his usual levels of fucked up. The recognition of the contempt he has for her. It’s palpable and heart-breaking.
Panel 7: And again, Roz is a saint for trying to defuse this gently, trying desperately not to blow up, to be professional and meet the bullshit challenge Leslie set for her (seriously, a cake, a boat, and a fucking pony).
And this line? It’s good. It’s important. Rating women is PUA shit. And now that we all live in the hell we do we really need to start excising this “boys will be boys” horseshit out of our system, because that violent hatred of women is killing us all. There is no excuse for rating women. It should not be tolerated. Because that’s the shit that leads to the normalization of a serial rapist being elected president and treated like the most God-chosen president ever.
And Joe… it’s just the moment, but I want him to die here. This aggressive beating of women into the box he has framed for them. Devaluing their looks when they try and avoid his harassment because he thinks it’ll give him a “win”. Exploiting social power to harass and harass and harass without consequence.
Like, any other day I’d shake it off. But right here, right now. I can’t. Joe is human excrement and I would not be sad if someone ripped off his balls and put them in a blender.
I’ll feel differently tomorrow. But tonight… tonight I can’t.
Reminds me of a song I discovered: Jens Lekman’s “I Know What Love Isn’t”. Nice breezy tune with one caveat of rating women numerically in two lines. If it wasn’t for SCROTUS, I would’ve liked that song.
I’m hoping maybe with the time given, Roz actually talks with Dorothy and the truth about the party comes out. The last time it was brought up with Roz was giving Joyce the card to a therapy or crisis center. She suspected something and was genuinely worried, but any worry went out the window because she thought Joyce was being hypocritical. Her attitude has been grating in quite a few strips, but Roz would likely drop everything to get a rapist off campus.
The sad thing is, that is probably how Joe thinks of his behaviour, harmless clownish buffoonery. I doubt he is aware how bad it really is. Like, he knows he’s being a dick, but has no idea of the scale of it.
I like Roz so much more than Robin. Look at her dealing with this responsibility she should never have had to the best of her ability (and being sexually harassed for the effort) while her sister illegally squats in someone else’s home avoiding her very real responsibilities.
See, I think I’d actually like Roz a lot more if the comic gave her more moments like this instead of sneaky manipulative stuff or trying to drive up her popularity by making loud proclamations.
Star Trek was a big part of my childhood so the idea of Roz curled up by the TV with her dad and baby sis, watching an episode of DS9 and eating popcorn, is suddenly and viscerally heartwarming?
Unless they were reruns or dvds, that wouldn’t have happened. Roz is 18, comic-time means this strip happened in 2017, and DS9 ended 18 years ago. She would have been a baby and Riley wouldn’t have been born yet.
Yeah shockingly that’s exactly what I meant and figured could be very easily read into my statement but thanks for explaining the timeline of Star Trek and this strip to me.
imagine her in like. awkward middle school when everything’s acne and braces and limbs that are suddenly too long and sudden periods and pre-teen bullying, and then like something honest-to-god healthy at home
….imagine roz liking wesley crusher because he was a kid who got to be included regardless of how annoying he was
There’s something to be said about a lot of people not liking Roz for seeing a lack of genuine caring for her politics (the idea that she only wants “ally points” because of how she comes across (angry) but cutting Robin a lot of slack and insisting we focus on her inner potential for goodness despite her politics being so morally abhorrent because of her…charming (to some) exterior.
I confess, I have problems with Roz not because of her personality as I’m guilty of talking over other people I should be listening to. I do have a problem with the fact she’s aware her sister is squatting in her teacher’s house and causing a meltdown of her life–and she chooses to just sit back until she’s put on the spot. Not cool, Roz.
You should be trying to drag your sister away from this.
Because she’s had so much success trying to control her sister in the past. This is Leslie’s mess to clean up not her student’s and Roz is already going above and beyond to help her by even teaching this class.
Given my personal background with abusive family, I’m really hesitant about blaming Roz for practicing self-care and trying to stay as far away from Robin as possible.
Especially as Robin has reported that Roz has spent years trying to sway her to empathy with not only no effect, but the pain of having bits of her statements be used by Robin to justify her bigoted actions.
I had to edit my comment twice because of my knee-jerk reaction to being blamed by Parent A for Parent B’s behavior, or for my siblings’ behavior. I was family scapegoat and got blamed for everything whether or not it was my fault.
Aside from the fact that I really don’t know what Roz could do to get Robin out of there, Roz doesn’t know nearly as much about the situation as we do. Up until Leslie showed up in class talking about an annoying houseguest, she may have assumed it was a happy consensual arrangement. (Leslie throwing Robin out did get caught on camera, but again we don’t know if Roz saw that.)
Roz set up Leslie(with Leslie’s consent I should note), Robin decided to go full on creepy stalker meets woman-child. What Leslie didn’t go into with her eyes open is 100% Robin’s fault, not Roz.
Robin may act like a child, but she isn’t one. She is wholly responsible for her own actions. It is neither her little sister’s job nor obligation to monitor and mitigate the effects of Robin’s every destructive whim.
And, IME, the fact that people keep acting like it is lets Robin keep getting away with being terrible.
From what we’ve seen of him so far, I kinda feel like Jacob is a given when you’re trying to find examples of a good male character. He’s buff, good-natured, devoted to his studies, not obsessed with sex, knows when to withdraw from a bad situation, and is religious without making it his central character trait. The only thing approaching a flaw I’ve seen from him is the joy he got sharing Joyce stories with Sarah, and maybe when he suggested Joyce would snap and become hypersexual, but he stopped those the moment Sarah made it clear she was uncomfortable continuing.
There’s Ken, maybe. I keep forgetting about him. I say “maybe” because I’m not super familiar with him, although there was his comment about asking a girl out before Becky was hired. There’s also one of the guys from the meetup Ethan went to, I think. Does the Dean count?
It’s a good thing you linked to a page he’s on. I was about to ask who the hell Tony was, before I noticed that. Also, wasn’t there something skeevy about him?
I think that’s because the 80s were kinda devoted to portraying preppies as evil and it’s just stuck around in popular culture since then. Plus the fact that football, especially college football, can have a very, very toxic culture and you have the instant distrust of college and high school athletes.
Thank you for that. Because by using the “Tony” tag, I was able to cross reference quite a few minor male characters, including Jim! Anyone else remember Jim? Anyone?…Well, he still counts.
Ooh, Ron was pretty cool, for the few panels he had. All he really did was get Joyce a Sierra Mist and a ride home, and he promised to keep Ryan the fuck away from any parties he attends.
I don’t think we’ve seen Walky express any genuine attraction to any guys, and besides that, he’s an irresponsible slacker with an aversion to anything serious. Hank, maybe, but he’s honestly got a long way to go before I really consider him a truly good guy.
I would have thought the objection to Walky would have been the fact that he’s been ignoring the way his parents treat Sal, not the fact that his grades are suffering because he’s never had to study before.
Look at Walky’s face again, he’s not looking at the suspenders. He’s looking at what he wants to get out of this interaction. Jason’s comment sealed it for me.
Hank didn’t start off good and is still on shaky ground. Walky also is on shaky ground but closer to being off said shaky ground. He still has a bit to go though.
I still think, All things considered, that Hank handled his daughter literally stealing his car remarkably well. He’s a great dad in my book. Lord knows how much trouble I’d be in if I ever took my mom’s car for the entire day.
Even if this were truly a problem in the comic, decent straight cis men are so overrepresented literally everywhere else in media that I would really strugglr to make a sympathetic noise for the straight cis dudes feeling left out here.
Not really sure how to read this one. To clarify some, I was actually trying to make sure there were decent straight guys in this comic as a way to sort of balance out the shitty ones in my own mind. Having read and engaged the other responses to my original comment, I can safely list at least a few, even if most of them are bit characters.
From what I’ve gathered, for every douchebag straight guy taking up a ton of space with his creepy nonsense and/or irresponsibility, there’s at least one decent guy who shows up, spends his screen time being helpful and amiable, then going on his merry way.
This is in no way an attempt at ticking off a token “good straight guy” box on some arbitrary list. I’m well aware of the inclusive nature of the comic, particularly its focus on LGBT+ characters, and that’s honestly one of its selling points.
See, it’s not even particularly focused on LGBTQ+ characters. Joyce, Dorothy, Walky, Amber, Sal — they’re all straight, and they’re all super major characters who have had big arcs devoted to them. Joyce is arguably THE main character.
What DoA is is a comic that acknowledges that LGBTQ+ people exist in real life, and we CLUSTER. We make friends with each other and we hold on for dear life. Ask literally any non-closeted LGBTQ+ person how many other LGBTQ+ people they know, and you will find that their social group is WELL over Kinsey’s outdated and flawed 10% figure.
The reason why DOA seems focused on LGBTQ+ characters is because most media, the overwhelming majority of it, is stuck in a bullshit house of mirrors where it’s 5:1 men and either 10:1 or 100% straight. That DOA has more than one LGBTQ+ character, let alone more than one LGBTQ+ relationship, makes it LEAGUES ahead of typical media.
But it still isn’t actually focused on us. It’s a story about kids in college, with more women than men in the starring cast, currently doing an LGBTQ+ focused storyline.
And every single time we get one of these storylines, or a new character is revealed to not be both straight and cis, there’s at least one comment asking innocently — often intended as a teasing poke at the unrealisticness — where all the straight people are.
Where are all the good Christian characters? Where are all the good straight characters? Why are all the dads douchebags?
These are real questions. The answer is usually “in the comic, you just have to give it some thought and remember that our cast is huge and the people currently on stage aren’t all the people ever.”
But they’re also exhausting questions.
I am a bi woman. Do you know how many decent female bi characters I have ever been privileged to witness outside of this comic? Because it is not a lot, my friend. Heck, even if I count the ones that play into the Depraved Bisexual Trope or who are only bi by implication because the B Word is treated as dirty by media, it’s still not a lot.
So even if this comic had 0 (decent) straight men in it, I would still kind of shrug at you, because…… welcome to my experience with every piece of media I’ve come across since I was born??
You seem to be coming at this with the idea that I actually need there to be decent straight men in this comic. I already explained why I even asked in the first place. I’m not trying to dredge up precious representation for a group I’m well aware is over-represented in the first place. Unlike most people who are “just asking”, I really was just asking. It was a question that popped into my mind, and I don’t think it was an invalid one to ask.
Besides that, I also wasn’t claiming that LGBT+ characters were the focus on the comic. I was praising the amount of focus given. As you said yourself, there’s usually a 10:1 ratio of straight to LGBT characters in our media, and what representation does exist is frequently negative and/or stereotypical. In this particular comic, I can’t think of any LGBT+ characters being portrayed as Wrong, the way they often are elsewhere, and that’s part of what I’m trying to say.
I don’t understand why your response seems so… I dunno, derisive? Like, I was honestly only curious, but you seem to have read some sort of undertone to it. And your response to my praise of how much LGBT+ content is in the comic there is, well, kinda seemed to miss the point of what was said. Hopefully, I’ve cleared things up. If not, I’m not sure what to say, aside from sorry if I’ve offended.
That’s why my tone, whatever tone it is. (Genuinely unsure. Depressed and low on sleep. Recent pet death. Comments today trying to police Cerberus’s tone while she fears for her life. Life.)
If you don’t actually need there to be any straight cis guys in the comic that’s fine. Then none of this was actually directed at you and you don’t need to worry about it. Although I would stress that plenty of people asking these exhausting questions are also genuinely just asking! It’s just straws breaking the camel’s back.
Thank you, Cerberus I know I’m still extremely lucky right now. I’m not going to be in the immediate crossfire of the shitfest that is our president. I’m white and currently able bodied / healthy, I have a pretty good job, I’m WHITE and cis.
But my mom? She’s unemployed and struggling to get on disability for a bunch of stuff, and I am scared for her. For friends. For this country as a whole.
And the last couple of months have been ridiculously hard because my cat got horribly sick and as I foolishly depleted savings trying to treat her (I think maybe if I weren’t alone on the other side of the country and she wasn’t the only family I had out here… but I digress), it was just such a horrifying preview of what they’re trying to do to healthcare that was only barely improved from my “do anything to avoid going to the doctor cuz we can’t afford it” childhood. She had heart disease, they thought; and then it turned out cancer, after I watched her just rapidly lose weight and energy and worried constantly whether she was in pain.
The country is on fire and I couldn’t even pay to get a cat all the treatments she needed. How fucked will I be if I get sick? Ha ha ha.
It’s always hard to lose a loved one, even the furry ones. And yeah, it shouldn’t be a choice between trying to help the ones we love and whether we can afford to feed ourselves and survive. That it is in all walks of life really gets to how fucked everything is and is threatening to become.
Its quite nice, after the crappy last week I’ve had, to have a lighter strip (if Joyce had come flying out of frame to lay Robin out with her fist of justice then that would have been pretty good as well) so next strip will probably involve Roz explaining to Joe why what he said was inappropriate (I assume she has a fairly good idea of what hes like by now)
The Penis Rating Test:
Does it reach the partner’s good bits: Yes/No
In Case of Yes: Congratulations, you’ve finished the test. Everything else is purely personal preference.
That’s unfair. Sometimes I may just want it to reach hands or mouth. and sometimes I wouldn’t want it to reach anything. It’s a very multifaceted rating system.
Like, she’s trying, but she really should have led with ‘don’t rate women’. Engaging with the system is a losing move, and now Roz has only weakened her argument. Like, if you’re not fully willing to stand behind this kind of assertion, don’t even go there.
Like, yeah, this is not a text debate, this is out loud and Roz has less of a chance to think things through before saying them. But this kind of statement is very indicative of Roz’s personality and politics and how she lets one influence the other, imho. For her, being attractive to men is a good positive thing that she wishes on all women, because she’s straight and likes sex. And that’s… oh Roz. You will learn better, I believe in you.
Actually, if Roz has any semblance of critical intelligence, she would have expected this to happen. I mean, Joe cheeks Leslie, the woman who can legally make his life hell by failing him on the course and having academic credits removed. Was it ever likely that he would respect a pseudo-TA?
There has been a Joe x Roz, as I understand it from Willis’s listing he’s put in his newsposts. This strip confirms that, in canon, Roz and Joe have not been together.
That’s… not what this post does. Joe was in Roz’s sex rape a million years ago. I don’t know why Joe phrased it the way he did but they have already had sex at least once.
That was supposed to be tape!! That was supposed to be tape!! From that one time near the beginning of the comic Roz filmed them. Joe has not raped anyone. Although if he had, given the US justice system’s and education system’s track record of handling campus rape, he probably wouldn’t have been charged or gotten a slap on the wrist because we as a society are so bad about taking that shit seriously.
He was never particularly amusing in this mode to me anyway. He can have his perspectives and feelings. He can even outline them in and impersonal way when it’s relevant. However, the way he shoves it into everyone else’s faces is beyond the pale.
Ah the classic struggle of needing to be willing to accept that someone has the same rights as us and, at the same time, absolutely hating what they are doing with said rights.
Oh. I just realized I had forgotten something about Joe.
He’s Jewish.
Maybe I suffer from eurocentrism and I tend to invisibilize Jewish people (I’m pretty sure everyone in the comments picked that up before me), but I read that lame “even Tomi Lahren?” comeback differently now.
I hope Joe is not apathetic to the nazi uprising in the USA (I mean, he has a right to be apathetic about stuff, I just hope he’s not), so he may be sincere in his finding Lahren less attractive, and may be sincere in the idea that “come on, you can’t put a nazi woman with the other women just because she is a woman”.
But he’s using that maybe sincere concern as a Jewish person as a pretext to harass a latinx classmate that he’s awful with not because she “defended nazi women by saying they should be 10” but because she’s a sexually active woman he had sex with.
Although, I don’t think I disagree with the connotation I’m reading from this particular use. There’s a certain truth to the stereotype of “SJW”, at least as it’s used by, well, assholes. Those sorts do exist, and they make those of us who actually have a head on our shoulders look bad by association.
Frankly after everything I saw on Tumblr I’m kind of disillusioned with the whole thing. It’s funny really for most of my life I was all for homosexual rights, equality and all that… Then Tumblr happened and I got my nice illusion that the SJW side is not full of assholes taken away from me. Now I just mostly stand to the side and I’m too annoyed with all this to participate.
I don’t think I can begrudge that. It takes an almost superhuman amount of fortitude not to let the exceptional individuals taint the entire thing for you. I’ve been on the border of standing to the side for a while, myself. The only thing keeping me from giving up on trying is this website.
Honestly, thats why I engage on this site and generally avoid any sort of social media side of Tumblr. Like I just use it to go to friends artblogs really.
At least here its generally pretty easy to have some sort of “conversation”, instead of risking being browbeaten by the loudest worst exceptions in a group (since every group has those) for not already knowing everything or not having “earned” the right to try and care and understand the issues at hand.
People assuming that everyone is an enemy and aggressor by default, at a certain point starts to be super obvious and as a result puts other people on the defensive or more likely to accept that role in the interaction. Locking that perspective in, shutting attempts to discuss things down with claims that things should be innately obvious, doesn’t help people learn.
@Taffy: Wow, really? Thanks. I usually feel like my ability to explain things is pretty horrible because people don’t seem to understand what I’m saying, so its good to know that wasn’t the case this time.
I’m sorry but “I used to be all for rights, then I realized that like all humans some of them are asshole” makes it sound like you decided LGBTQ+ people … don’t… deserve human rights anymore?
Gotta say, thaaaat is not a decision you can blame on Tumblr. That’s just you, deciding that basic human rights for an entire marginalized group should be conditional on how nice they are to you, and it’s indefensible and kind of shocking that you’re openly admitting it tbh.
@Krys
If I’m being perfectly honest here, that’s why I rarely post here. There’s often times a tone used that is unintentionally manipulative and while I’m sure people have good intentions I can’t stand it.
@Li
And that’s not at all what I said.
I simply have no patience for assholes who attack everyone everywhere for just existing. I thought it was “equality for all” instead of the typical “Now MY group will have more rights than yours, let’s see how you like that.”
I very much still support rights for marginalized groups. Just don’t expect me to nod and agree when some of these people try to shove their idiocy down my throat.
And frankly… what’s Wrong with not giving a shit about people who are attacking me despite the fact that I have done them no wrong? You come to me with reasonable arguments and just need and I will support it. You come spitting at my face and calling me cishet scum rapist just because I exist then go do highly immortal stuff to your rectum.
“Now MY group will have more rights than yours, let’s see how you like that.”
Yeah this is literally a figment of your imagination sorry. No one is actually saying that. You’re hearing it because you don’t like being told, for example, that your straight opinion isn’t welcome in intracommunity discussions. Or that when you talk about “I was all for homosexual rights and equality”, people think poorly of you.
Neither of those is an example of LGBTQ+ people having more rights than you.
As for “what’s wrong with not giving a shit about people attacking me” — sorry, but again people deserve human rights whether or not they are nice to you. That’s why we call them “human rights”.
For example, I think you’re kind of a dick, but I don’t think you suddenly no longer deserve the right to get married, to have a driver’s license that reflects your identity, or to use public bathrooms, as just a small example of LGBTQ+ rights currently up for debate.
There is literally no amount that you could piss me off that would make me think you no longer deserved human rights.
And it may not be what you meant but you LITERALLY SAID you “used to be all for homosexual rights”, so if that’s not what you meant it’s kind of on you.
Here is the short, comprehensive version.
Human assholery beat most of the enthusiasm out of me. I still support the ideals but frankly I lost most of my faith in people.
I am not trying to win you over.
I am not trying to change your mind.
This is not my sales pitch. I don’t actually care whether you reconsider your views or not.
If your allyship is so weak that kids being mean to you on tumblr convinced you not to care anymore whether a marginalized group is given basic human rights, your allyship is not worth much to anyone.
Yes, every group needs allies from outside that group. No, this is not my ally sales pitch.
But it is a fairly basic litmus test. People whose allyship crumbles at the first stress test need to either get out of the way or get stronger.
It’s up to you which you choose to do, and you alone. My rudeness to you should have nothing to do with it.
Hey cool glad we cleared that up but I’m still gonna say that people deserving basic human rights is not an issue that should require loving the people whose rights are in jeopardy.
@Li
They weren’t mean to me. This is probably where your confusion comes from. It’s seeing the internal fights and conflicts Within the LGBT that really made me puke. Dividing up along the white/black line. Being shitty to bisexual people seeing them as traitors.
It’s not meanness aimed at me that made me lose faith. It’s fighting amongst each other while still having a bigger enemy to deal with that’s really pissing me off.
This kind of stuff just hits me in the liver with “Humans are humans, no matter what they will still be assholes.”
and sometimes after seeing vivid proof that all (sorts of) humans suck, it can be a lot harder to muster up enthusiasm for defending any of them. there is no cause so noble, no group so disadvantaged, that some members/adherents will not be utter shit(s).
it’s the sort of experience that can bring on attacks of cynicism, depression, misanthropy, and/or “fuck, just drop the asteroid already.”
@StClair: Hey if you want to go full nihilist there I really really truly do not care. It’s pretty freeing to just wish for an asteroid instead of having to face up to the shit situation we are in.
@EG: I don’t even disagree with you that intracommunity issues are exhausting. A lot if not all of it is a direct response to oppression, though. If our lives weren’t varying degrees of shit, no one would be playing respectability politics in a desperate bid for approval from bigots (“trans rights need to wait for a while because you guys are weirder than we are! if we drop trans coverage from this bill, it has a better chance of passing! so wait patiently folks!”), no one would be lashing out. It all comes from a place of tremendous pain.
The race issue is also just because all communities are racist and no community wants to acknowledge it. In particular my fellow white cis people get very very outraged at the idea that we could possibly be anyone else’s oppressors. We need to get over it, and work on actually healing the problems in the community.
But again being crappy doesn’t mean we don’t still deserve basic human rights.
@StClair
Ah a fellow sufferer I see… The politicians over in my country didn’t make it any easier. We were through pretty much all possible options from leftist to rightist and they all proved to be opportunistic thieves and liars.
@Li
Mhm I never said they do not deserve human rights. They deserve those rights and they should have them. But I just don’t have any strength and optimism left to deal with this crap.
Hate is so much easier. (Quicker, more seductive.)
I hit upon the analogy a while back that negative feelings are to sapient thought as excrement is to biological life – an inevitable byproduct. And because few want to just sit in it and suffer its presence (ie, self-loathing), we all have to come up with ways of getting rid of it. Disposing of it responsibly, burying it without harming anyone, takes time and effort, so most just look for someone they can dump it all on and call it good.
This is indeed a strange place to discourse about whether or not self-proclaimed “SJW” tweens and teens on tumblr are ruining Human Rights forever.
That said, my two cents on it are :
– That I agree with this piece. Really, the whole “you’re ruining what you pretend to fight for by being a dick” is relative. The cause won’t lose that much ground and you allow otherwise discriminated youth to empower themselves by saying repeatidly “No, no, fuck you” to the society that decided they should be discriminated against. Sometimes “the society” is really just a random person who asks naively “you sure you don’t make out with boy and girls to get attention ?” or “but aren’t there only two genders ?”, and they’re really, really naïve and really, really don’t deserve the wrath, but no lashing out at this huge piece of naïveté will really hurt your cause on the long run.
– That said, there is a Line to be drawn. The bloody Line is : you don’t drive people to hurt* themselves. And I know that Line was crossed by tumblr folks who I consider bullies first and fueled by a cause second.
So yeah, a Line, but that line is not “not being nice enough in defending Human Rights”.
Well, now, this brings up an interesting question. Whiteness as a cultural concept is heavily defined by the bigots who guard it’s definitions of whiteness.
Like Irish and Italian used to not be white. And Italian was still not white going into the 70s. So, if the bigots have decided that Jewish people do not count as white, if they are using stereotypical aspects of one’s body to label one a jewish person and abuse them for it?
Does that remove any claim to whiteness they might have, because the bigots are removing any of the protections that would normally entail? Because they are abusing this population based on their ethnic markers.
Oh, thanks for that reminder. Yeah, people tend to forget about the Irish and Italians not being White(tm) for the longest time. Hell, if they still weren’t, I wouldn’t even be considered white these days. I’d just be this lovely blend of Scots-Irish, Italian, and Mediterranean, with possibly a touch of Indian, subject to all the arbitrary racism that would entail.
This is the reason I’ve started to pick up on things more, lately, particularly in regard to privilege. As a mostly-straight, technically white cis male, my position is secure enough to help others with minimal personal risk, and that should be taken advantage of, shouldn’t it?
Sorry if this reply seems like a “me” thing. You just gave a really good reminder of how thin a lot of ethnic distinctions can be.
Yup, me too. I’m mixed Irish/Italian and especially have a lot of strong markers for being read as Italian. In a previous time, that’d mark me out for racist violence. These days however, because those groups are considered part of white, I benefit immensely from the white privilege that comes with it.
But yeah, it really illustrates the fluidity of what is counted as white or not.
This is part of why I always get concerned by anti-semitism. Mostly because one of my late friends was Jewish (he got hit by a drunk driver, so at least it wasn’t a hate crime) but partly because I know that if American bigots ever successfully push Jewish people out of the “White” category, the very next instant they’ll be coming for the Irish and Italians and probably anyone who isn’t a part of those ethnic groups but happens to be Catholic. And then we end up in the Republic of Gilead and I’m off in a “Colony” cleaning up radioactive waste.
I am Pasty McPastypants and therefore benefit from a lot of white privilege which lets me get away with stuff so I try do be as much of a shield as my chronic illness allows. Back where I used to live, I was the wrong kind of white (my surname is a common Jewish surname and my first name is a Hewbrew name popular among Jewish people and my father is an immigrant from a city witha really high Jewish population so I code really Jewish even tho I am not* and sometimes get splash anti-Semitism) and the difference from small town white supremacyville vs the multicultural city I live in now in how I am treated is huge.
Probably the most striking difference is that after 10 years away, fishing questions about my surname or someone outright asking if I am Jewish no longer activates my flight, fight or freeze response.
My point here is that whitness totally is relative.
*there is a good chance my paternal grandfather was a Jewish man who converted to Catholicism before his service in WW2, but Judaism is matrilineal, so.
A woman I know is an advocate for PoC rights and feminism. She has a white passing, but makes no mysteries of her jewishness for her last name is a giver. She was repeatidly harrassed by nazi trolls using nazi imagery and nazi threats to get her to stop being vocal. Hundreds of trolls : she’s pretty vocal (and absolutely adorable).
And she was attacked by antiracists fuckers, who kept telling her she should stop considering herself non-white because of her skin color and her relatively caucasian features.
While the trolls kept on threatening to put her in an oven.
So, yeah, I may be white but her experience taught me to not erase jewish experience of antisemitism, and that’s why I made this comment in the first place.
I’ve had people, out of literally nowhere, attribute my abuse history to the fact that my family is Jewish (ie, they acted like all Jewish families are abusive). I’ve had people do the same with my history as a trafficking survivor, acting as if it’s just a given that Jewish people do that. I’ve had people who wouldn’t even consider themselves prejudiced not understand why it’s not okay to call a Jewish woman swine or argue with me about using Holocaust comparisons flippantly. I’ve even had people get angry at me for calling someone out for admitting that they have wet dreams about the Holocaust! And yet, I get yelled over if I ever try to join discussions on racially / ethnically based prejudice or oppression.
Jewish people are only as white as we’re read to be, and it often seems like how white we’re read to be is however white is most convenient for the argument of everyone else. Non-white enough for neo-Nazis to want us dead, white enough for SJWs and ignorant leftists to act like we somehow deserve it. On one hand, we have to take protective measures to avoid having our inboxes spammed with pictures of the Holocaust, smoke stacks, or dead pigs along with a plethora of slurs, threats, and stereotypes. On the other, we need to shut up about our oppression because we don’t have it as bad as other groups and are somehow magically more privileged than actual white people, and it’s okay to take cheap shots at us because Israel. (Because everyone knows it’s totally cool to hold an entire ethnoreligious group accountable for a government for a country they likely aren’t even a citizen of!)
I, like a lot of other white-passing Jewish people, identify as conditionally white. The condition is, again, basically who I’m talking to. To some people, I will never be white. Period. Not just neo-Nazis, either. I’ve met plenty of well meaning people, especially those from Europe, who conflate race with ethnicity or who take us being persecuted in a racial manner as evidence that Jews aren’t white. In any case, we’re not ethnically white; we’re ethnically Jewish. However, there are Jews who are PoC and Jews who aren’t PoC, and it’s also important to maintain that distinction. Jews who are PoC face additional racism on top of racially based anti-Semitism. I, as a white skinned Jew, don’t have to worry about that. It’s not an either or thing like it is for a lot of other groups, hence why it requires a lot more nuance in its discussion.
Sorry for the rant, Jews being left out of social justice is just something I can’t stand. Seeing Joe being accused of not caring about Nazis here cuts really deep.
Latinx is the gender neuter form of Latino/Latina to be inclusive to all genders and dismantling the masculine trumps feminine system simultaneously. From what I’ve heard my Latinx friends say irl, they pronounce it “Latin-ex”
The “La-teen-ex” pronunciation makes more sense to me, if we’re going to use the X. Without it, why not just say “Latin”? Forgive my ignorance, but new terms seem to pop up every couple of months, and I don’t follow a broad enough spectrum of issues with enough devotion to pick up on them naturally.
adding the X has it mesh better with other Spanish concepts (e.g. gendered nouns and adjectives). In this way one can say “este persona es Latinx y lindx” (“This person is Latinx and cute”) instead of specifying gender for the person
You have Latino friends that voluntarily use the term about themselves? Every Latino I know hates it. My friend Bárbara (Mexican, lives in Guadalajara) made me promise to never use it.
Whiteness has zip to do with appearance, which is why Irish immigrants were originally not considered white, and why a ton of people only get “conditional whiteness”. Conditional because white supremacy only considers them a member until it hears, for example, their last name.
My being an American is not really the issue here.
Yes. Because they were non-binary and the existing terms in America were hurting them and making them feel excluded. My latinx friends were the one who heavily corrected me when I used to use “latino/a” or “latin@”. I’m not sure of its usage in other countries, but I see it a lot more in latinx communities in America, especially the parts heavily connected to queer or trans rights.
Oh. Oh God. I thought it was for a completely different reason and now I feel really bad about that. Because, idiot that I was, I thought it was a shortening of “Latin-Mixed” and meant people who had parents of different ethnic backgrounds in Latin America or were part Latino and part Native American. Was that really racist on my part? I think that might have been really racist on my part? Oh god. Umm, thank you for clearing that up, I have a couple people to apologize to.
A word that every Latino I know literally detests, because “Latinos” IS the gender neutral term. ‘Latinx’ is forcing an English-language gender neutrality on words that never needed them, and in the words of one of my best friends, it’s “more obviously American than Taco Bell.”
Yeah, cause of that whole “if there’s one man in the group, you use the masculine plural” thing right? So I get that is probably more accurate to the language and I would not begrudge folks viewing it as an Americanism because it probably is. I’m more just following the lead of latinx non-binary folks I know and what they personally requested of me with regards to usage.
(Sincerely, I’m not an english-speaker. There is no political intent on my choosing of this word. I saw “latinx” twice or thrice on tumblr and I use it because I fear that “hispanic”, the word I was taught for “person from mexico, central america or south america, or their descendent living in the United States”, may have become a slur : I never see it used anywhere these days).
I’m Jewish, and I keep forgetting I have particular reason to dislike Tomi Lahren because everything else she says and does is so awful.
Also, frankly, I think we might be getting a bit carried away here. Joe knows Roz. He knows she doesn’t have a problem with having her beliefs challenged: she arguably even enjoys the debate. Sure, he should at least wait until class is over and they’re alone, but I think Roz herself is more likely to take that part of the conversation as banter or at least a teachable moment than harassment.
Another aspect is the dissonance between the “whacky hijinks” nature of this comic and the “slice of life” aspect, which has come up before; with Joe, I tend to place him more on the cartoonish end of the spectrum.
He’s still slightly less detestable than he tended to be in that regard than what little of Roomies I was able to get through. Mainly that he seems to actually be a real human with actual issues that are part of why he uses these sorts of shitty behavior as his preferred coping mechanism instead of just being a cartoonish douchebro who douchebros.
I have no idea why you think that having had sex with Joe is something Roz should feel ashamed of.
It’s possible, given that her sex tape with him was clearly something of a protest, that she rushed the selection process to find someone who was willing to make a tape.
But she got what she wanted out of the exchange, and she had a good time, and he probably didn’t talk much.
They aren’t currently in a relationship, and she didn’t lose anything by sleeping with him, so she has nothing to regret right now. Joe’s obnoxiousness doesn’t reflect poorly on her in any way.
It’s mostly just hilarious irony that the most Social Justice Girl willingly and eagerly banged the most chauvinistic deouchabag in the comic XD
Don’t take EVERYTHING so seriously, some things are just jokes…
Yeah, but it’s only hilarious if you think that her banging him is somehow contradictory. Having sex with someone isn’t an endorsement of their views. If Roz had a good time, they both got what they wanted out of it, and she has nothing to be embarrassed about, and your joke makes no sense.
But if you’re cool with making no sense that’s fine lol
[shrugs] Whatever floats your boat but I sure as hell wouldn’t want to go to bed with say… a Nazi or a hard-ass commie from the time of World War 2.
Still there is a silver lining to this. If she can bang a chauvinistic, objectifying asshat then she might just be able to communicate with him XD
My boat is not at issue here and you know perfectly well that Joe is not a Nazi, and your usage of “hard ass commie from WW2” is kind of awkward since the “commies” were fighting the spread of Nazism too and in fact terror of communism is part of why the US ignored the rise of Nazism for so long; we literally thought they would wipe out the more dangerous rise of communism in that part of the world. (Also we liked eugenics just fine and were plenty big Nazi sympathizers or outright Nazis ourselves.)
Anyway, I want to change the comparison here. Suppose Roz had a Pokemon card she wanted to trade. Suppose Joe had a card she wanted. Suppose they traded Pokémon cards.
Would you still be calling it ironic that she exchanged Pokémon cards with someone she has ideological differences with?
@Li
You compare having sex to trading Pokemon O_o? I’m seriously old-fashioned if this is how people nowadays think… Look me in the face and tell me that you would bang Trump if it got you something.
You are seriously over-analyzing things… as for Nazis and Commies. I’m from Poland. We got equally fucked over by both groups so they are basically synonymous with “people I want as far away from me as possible.”
And you consider having sex to be something deeply sacred and personal. Roz and Joe don’t, as they’ve made clear. It is morally neutral to have casual sex.
Which is my whole damn point.
And that’s all I even slightly have the energy to respond to, because I still don’t want to compare Joe (a Jewish man) to either Trump or a Nazi. I don’t want to argue cultural connotations for nazism and communism. It’s all inappropriate to the conversation. I’m sorry I engaged on it at all.
The idea that women are expected to hold their sexuality as sacred is likely part of the issue that Roz made her tape to reject.
If a man has sex with a woman he hates its as likely to be seen as a victory over her as accepting her.
The idea that a woman having sex with a man is some sort of surrender or sacred pact and that by having sex with him she implicitly approve of him is toxic.
I mean you’re allowed to hold that standard for yourself about sex, also letting others in you’re house, sharing a meal, letting others use your phone, trading pokemon cards.
P.S. I might feel dirty about trading pokemon cards with a Nazi.
[sigh] People on this site love to overanalyze. I’d laugh as much at a guy who slept with his worst enemy. I don’t hold sex as “sacred” but seriously people have some Standards.
Does no one see the irony and hypocrisy of a feminist sleeping with a chauvinistic objectifier?
Why pack or sleep at 4am when I could get into ARGUMENTS on the INTERNET with STRANGERS about whether or not a fictional character is being a right jerk or not (spoiler-not-spoiler alert: he is)
I’m just laughing at the fact that Roz, the most SJW of the cast, banged Joe, the most stereotypically white, chauvinistic, cishet dude of the cast XD
Her shitty behaviour is catching up with her big time.
Not shitty, ironically hilarious considering they Couldn’t be farther from each other in their beliefs. It’s like Hitler and Stalin going to bed with each other.
Like I said somewhere else it’s more about his behaviour being stereotypically white. If you had a cishet white male in an encyclopaedia you could put his picture next to it.
See, for me Roz just reminds me of a lot of horrible narcissistic people I’ve known who do things mainly for the ego trip, in order to win people over for popularity and cliquishness, or put themselves above others with their self righteousness over how great they are.
But this one time, well she seems like she’s actually trying to keep things from getting out of hand, isn’t storming off in a fit because she’s being challenged, and is acting more mature than anyone else in her family.
So yeah, I’m actually applauding her for this one.
Saying she’s acting more “mature” than anyone else in her family doesn’t really mean THAT much, though. I mean, we don’t know much about her dad, I don’t remember if her mother has been seen in the comic (and if she has, what she did), and the two sisters are either Literally A Child or Robin.
Not a high bar to clear, you see.
I mean, I can still applaud her effort and the message she’s trying to send. And it sucks that when we see her get a comeuppance that she’s been deserving for a LONG time, it’s right here and now. But…in spite of all the FANTASTIC points that Cerberus makes (as Cerberus does because Cerberus is just super smart), I still feel that tiny bit of “yep, the universe has punished her behavior. May she learn from this and stop being a holier-than-thou parody of pseudo-ally activists”.
See, part of it is that honestly to me the only one who seemed like an actually decent human being for the most part up to this point was the one who was literally a child.
I mean the one who acts like a small child when she’s the only grownup of the three is still the worst and a lot of my dislike for Roz possibly has to do with how she’s framed as a character, but most of her scenes so far have had her acting pretty consistently awful to or about other people. She’s also both a sore loser and a braggart as a winner as far as we’ve seen.
So yeah, mixed feelings with hope towards her actually getting better about those things, or at least her good sides showing up more to counter out her awful ones.
I agree it’s kind of tactless to have a public “Do List”, but there is nothing wrong in rating people, it all comes down to personal preference/attraction.
It’s not quantifying their worth, just quantifying how much the specific individual list-maker wants to fuck them. No one was claiming that this list pertained to anyone’s inherent worth. Yes, it’s tasteless and rude to publicly declare it, but don’t act like most people don’t have a ranking of who they’d prefer to fuck
No, not really. I mean, there are a couple of people I’m interested in and I could probably, with some effort, tell you which I’d rather wind up with. Even adding in the occasional “well she’s hot” moment, that’s a far cry from actually having even an internal ordered list of nearly everyone I know (or even just see).
Nobody is saying Joe shouldn’t be picky about who he dates. Rating women != merely choosing to not have sex with some of them. Like, don’t try to spin people objecting to his rating system as thinking Joe isn’t allowed to have standards.
Nobody “merely choses” who to have sex with. They do it through a system of standards. They decide who they want to fuck based on a system of values and requirements.
Who the LIVING, HOLY FUCK just flips a coin and goes “Nah”?
The problem with all this rating-system argument nonsense is that some (very stupid) people have this impression that a rating system like this is used for “judging that person’s worth to society as a whole”.
But it’s fucking not. It’s just a very personal “How likely would I be to wanna fuck this person”. Some guy calling some girl a 3 isn’t announcing that that person is a useless pile of trash, he’s just saying “I personally find her very unattractive and would be very unlikely to sleep with her”.
At the very worst, her feelings are being hurt. She is not being de-valued.
I’ve been seeing a lot of comments and references to Roz’s watered down liberalalism, performative allyship, “white” feminism (I know she’s latinx but I can’t think of a better term) and just all around pretentious “i deserve a cookie for saying you should have rights” bs but…I can’t remember ever seeing this? Idk, I usually don’t pay attention to Roz and I’m pretty much indifferent to her, so maybe I just missed this part of her character. Does anyone have any examples? All I can think of is the fact that she’s very sex positive, which I can see how that could lead to some disregard for intersectionality, but something tells me that’s not all she’s done?
I had to look up “intersectionality”, but the given definition didn’t quite click. Could you elaborate on it, a little? Because from context, it almost seems like you might be saying a sex positive person could be problematic in some way, but that doesn’t seem right.
I’m a n00b but I’ll try to give you a hypothetical scenario of how a sex positive person could screw up…
A sex positive feminist like Ros says something negative or erasing to an asexual person because to this sex positive person, sex is great and if they perceive someone as anti-sex they must be repressed or shaming women for enjoying sex or some shit.
Dunno if that was what bleepbloop was getting at, but that’s the most obvious way I can think of where someone very sex positive could screw up (forgetting asexual people exist)
Another example that might help: Kimberlé Crenshaw, the woman who coined the term, has an interview in the New Statesman where she talks about how black feminist theory applied to anti-discrimination law. She cites a case where black women were being discriminated against by GM:
“The courts’ thinking was that black women could not prove gender discrimination because not all women were discriminated against, and they couldn’t prove race discrimination because not all black people were discriminated against.”
So very simplistically (but hopefully accurately), intersectionality is used to describe how discrimination on one axis (gender) changes when it goes along another axis (race) and/or how multiple types of discrimination can occur at once.
Very late reply, but basically an example of that would be how it’s easier for white women to be sex positive because they’re usually seen as “pure” and “innocent”, especially compared to woc. Black and latinx women especially have a harder time embracing their sexuality bc they’re constantly fetishized and hypersexualized. It’s hard to say if thats the case for Roz since she IS Latinx but yeah. The asexual example works too smashman!
Basically, I believe it was the first time Willis showed Leslie’s lesson in detail.
IIRC, Joyce expressed sympathy for homosexual youths who’d been left homeless and destitute. Roz attacked her for hypocrisy by claiming sympathy when she’s a member of the same religious bracket that was responsible for many of these incidents. Leslie tried to break them up but Roz kept on pushing, criticising Joyce and ignoring Leslie’s requests for attention until Leslie asked her to leave the room.
It’s been a while though; I might have got some of the details wrong.
That’s about the sum of that event. Joyce was having a legitimate breakthrough after 18 years of programming, and Roz got combative about it, accusing Joyce of wanting a parade. That kind of thing is never helpful, and I feel it’s actually harmful, because it discourages people from visibly changing their ways.
That’s part of the reason I gave my Tumblr and Twitter accounts the scorched-earth treatment before they gained any traction. There were a lot of accounts I followed who were starting to respond, and other followers of them were becoming hostile. This site has been pretty much the opposite, so far, so this is the community to be part of.
Yeah this is one of the things I hate about Tumblr. This raving mad stampede of hatred, once it gets rolling it’s borderline impossible to stop and these people who have Justice on their lips drive teenagers out of the site or straight into suicide.
In fairness, it’s been argued that Joyce needed that. That she was being coddled and needed that kind of slap in the face to push her to – for example – break up with Ethan. It’s even been alluded to in comic with Joyce’s invitation of Roz to her party.
I don’t subscribe to it, at least as a general rule, even if it did work on Joyce.
Joyce argued that Joyce needed that and she considers the moment positively and credits it for moving her into a point of real acceptance for her queer friends including her recognition of the awful aspect of her “corrective” relationship with Ethan.
Joyce really does seem to have a pretty good head on her shoulders, in spite of all that programming she had growing up. Like, she can actually realise when having a certain type of personality around is good for her personal growth, and then allow the lesson to stick. It’s really a good thing she didn’t go to Anderson with Becky, or things could have gone in a completely different direction for her.
The reactions to that moment were something I really appreciated. Roz got a reprimand from Leslie and thanks from Joyce, and though those seem contradictory, I think she really deserved both.
Joyce said she sometimes needed someone like Roz, but she never thanked her specifically for what she did AFTER Joyce realized the issue. Which, of course, she couldn’t have, since she had already left.
That was the point when we realized that Roz was doing performative allyship. At least, when, after that point, she didn’t apologize.
Yes, Joyce was the better person and was doing the whole “love your enemies” thing which is good on her. She chose to forgive and only look at the positives instead of the negatives.
Just like I can say I think well of Roz for finishing the lesson (and the rest of the class for not leaving). While I still will point out that she has been awful, and, in many ways, a clone of her sister.
And that’s true even if it turns out the Roz is non-binary, as it in no way excuses anything they’ve done.
Well, as I said, Joyce was having a legitimate breakthrough after years of programming, and Roz was dismissive, even somewhat hostile, in response. Joyce’s honest reaction to being hit with reality was to be shocked and horrified, followed by open rejection of the causes for that reality. Roz treated it like she was asking for gold stars and smiley-face stickers, and that sort of attitude can discourage people from openly reacting the way Joyce did.
Of course, as was pointed out above, Joyce actually appreciated Roz’s response after the fact, since it did keep her from getting a swollen head about how enlightened she suddenly was for having a normal reaction.
Yeah, and a little bit nasty, which I dunno, I can at least empathize with knowing what she dealt with and still deals with.
Like, her coming of age was with Robin who is a frickin’ sieve when it comes to careful long conversations about the humanity of folks and she apparently had slow patient conversations with her to try and sway her for years.
And now she’s dealing with Mary who is pure awfulness as her roommate and from what we’ve seen from their interactions, Mary is constantly backbiting at her while Roz tries her best to be firm but civil and defend.
So yeah, she’s going to break from time to time and be a bit of a dick. And she’s certainly going to celebrate the downfall of her awful sister because her sister has been dragging her constantly into her campaign against everything Roz cares about.
But yeah, I think it’s all more or less genuine even though she knows she is good at performing a fake persona for political gain and loathes that aspect of herself because of how little she likes Robin who is a master at it.
Today’s strip just got me thinking about ratings and how dehumanizing they are. As a kid I always felt like adults were rating me, and they had a number of explicit systems for doing so. I mean, sure, if pressed they would have said other things mattered more, but what they gave me the most grief for was the grade I got. And other kids rated my inability to kick a ball so harshly that I despise sports to day. And to top it all off I was never, ever masculine enough for anybody. So you take that dehumanization and turn it up to 11, and you get the practice of rating women. Anything she ever did or was, just sweep that aside; how does she rate on fuckability? Christ, don’t rate women, Joe.
Thank you. I have come to depend on this strip and comment threads for some, I don’t know, perspective? People need to think about what they’re laying on a kid. It can do lifelong damage. That was over a half century ago and I still wonder if I can find what’s really me and what’s just a pile of cultural conventions.
Then I look at what’s happening in this country and think about kids growing up now.
Millenial conservative “analyst”. She’s best known for being invited to be on the Daily Show and claiming “Well, I’m a millenial, so I don’t ascribe to labels.” That, or her equating Black Lives Matter to the KKK.
Oh please. Not even *you* believe that lie. No one does. You just think it makes you sound less racist if you pretend you think protesting violence is the same thing as murder.
Lets see her house is big with a lot of high shelves that’s a plus. But she sprays me every time I go on the table gotta subtract points for that. She provides regular food and water that’s good, but the foods never the good stuff. She’s also warm, lays pretty still and has a good petting hand. I’d say a solid 7.
Joe is being a jerk.
But I think his personal views dehumanize men more than women.
You’re cat probably doesn’t care about what media you consume, what you do for a living, what you’re politics are, just the small fraction of your life you devote to being a pet owner. Because your cats just a cat.
I believe Joe has internalized that men only really care about sex with women. I think he believes men don’t have complex lives outside of women, but women have complex lives outside of men which men as two dimensional beings should not pretend to be able to participate in.
Let me sum up my thoughts on the subject: the actual rating isn’t the problem, the context is. If your tastes are simple enough that you can actually put them on a scale, good for you. But the problem comes with taking a rating of attractiveness as an overall judgement of worth. People who rate women do this far too often, making the rating thing creepy by association. The fact that women are often regarded as having little worth anyway, at least by people in power, compounds this.
… I’d just like to say that you can tell how good the audience of a webcomic is if, even when they are all angry or frustrated or what have you, they can all calm down and be civil to each other later. And apologies are given and accepted by all sides for anything untoward that was said.
And that’s an awesome thing that restores my faith that the world is still a great place.
Getting comments deleted or being banned is a consequences.
This isn’t a free speech zone, this is a place where Lord Willis is the authority of correct speech. (I’m sooo getting banned for this comment xD )
“Free speech zones” are anarchic hell pits where no meaningful discussion can happen because everything constructive is drowned out by people just trying to be assholes.
Freedom of speech – even if you’re only talking about it in principal, not the law – absolutely does not require anyone to give you an audience or a platform.
Yes, people shouldn’t close themselves off just because they disagree, even though they have the right to do so.
That does not, and has never meant that anyone must or even should put up with you for even a moment if you’re being disrespectful, belligerent asshole.
If you call me on the phone and start harassing me, I’m going to hang up on you. If you come into my house and start spouting racist, homophobic, or misogynist garbage, I’m going to kick you out. If you post on Willis’s website and break his rules, he’s gonna ban you.
And none of those actions would be even slightly in conflict with the principal of free speech.
Convincing people to listen is the job of the person who wants to be heard. If you can’t figure out how to do that, that’s your damn problem.
This is true. But that means it applies both ways.
That’s why it’s not tone policing to point out that being disrespectful or belligerent is not helpful to getting people to listen.
You can be as angry as you want, but if what you say comes off as abusive, then people are more likely to decide that you are not entitled to them as an audience. They can choose to stop listening even in the middle of what you are saying.
That’s why people point these things out. This is different from someone who says you are wrong because you angry. That is tone policing.
Is that fucker’s remorse I hear, Roz? Too late, you willingly had sex with this asshole and recorded it. It will follow you forever and his actions will unfairly reflect on you.
I do not give people numeric scores for attractiveness. It just is not useful to me to do so. But in no way is doing so inherently sexist or anything else. Some people have brains that like to categorize.
Unless the person is judging your entire worth as a human being. That’s a problem. But that’s because they think your worth is entirely tied up with how sexually attractive you are.
That is Joe’s problem. Not the ranking itself, which could be benign. But that he still has problems treating women as full human beings with value beyond how hot they are.
Well, that and he thinks that women care how hot he thinks they are, and will jump at the chance to get higher on the list. That’s what makes what he says here so offensive.
It’s not merely revealing a ranking system out loud. It’s what he’s communicating in doing so in this particular way, combined with what we already know about his character.
It’s not as if something can become sexist just because you said it aloud. If was sexist when you said it, it was sexist when you thought it. In Joe’s case, it was sexist because he continues to buy into a patriarchy where men rating the sexual desirability of women is a valid way to control them.
Does Joe have an issue treating women as full human beings? It seems to me that Joe is just interested in no-strings casual sex with partners that want the same. It’s like he’s LFG in an MMORPG, and assigning value to how much fun he thinks he would have with them, rather than what they’re worth overall.
This comic reminds me of…well, several incidents across my life. But in particular it reminds me of recently when I was with a guy and he started comparing my body to his ex-girlfriend’s. It was done in a way that was supposed to be favorable to me, but it was gross and made me super uncomfortable.
Me if I ever see Tony Hawk: Hey you’re Tony Hawk the famous skateboarder. That’s right I recognise you. Won’t be able to get any content out of this will you, you piece of shit
How to read all 28 issues of my Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane run on Marvel Unlimited:
1: The first four issues were published as the miniseries "Mary Jane."
www.marvel.com/comics/serie...
today in #9chickweedlane i learned we have to be shown children learning and relearning what sex is, for Reasons, even though they already clearly know and have prepared nuanced questions about it!
also that Gran must hate, if she's still alive, how Old Juliette is the same but with gray hair
one of my favorite things is when a commenter explodes WHEN DO THESE CHARACTERS GET THERAPY but directed towards a character who canonically has a regular therapist
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btw if you're one of those rando bluesky weirdos who doesn't know me but sees me in the wild being sarcastic and don't know i'm being sarcastic because you haven't taken like 30 seconds to, like, maybe look at my user profile or something, keep walking, you're not going to score internet points here
Here's an entertaining cite at the bottom of the first page
Josh Gerstein@joshgerstein.bsky.social ⋅ 2d
JUST IN: Milwaukee Judge Hannah Dugan moves to dismiss federal criminal case against her for allegedly helping immigrant hide from ICE. Her lawyers say she's protected by official acts & judicial immunity and 10th Amendment. Doc: storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.us...
Where did Hollywood go so wrong? I thought movies were supposed to be an escape from reality, a chance to put your worries aside and not have to think about any underlying ideas or concepts. Well, not anymore.
theonion.com/you-can...
It's not a new argument, of course, but Chesterton dismissed it effectively in 1908.
"You will hear everlastingly... this argument that the rich man cannot be bribed. The fact is, of course, that the rich man is bribed; he has been bribed already. That is why he is a rich man."
Aaron Rupar@atrupar.com ⋅ 2d
Hawley dismisses Trump lining his pockets with his memecoin: "Listen, I think nobody believes that Donald Trump can be bought. I mean, what does Donald Trump need more money for?"
preternia @preternia.com ⋅ 1d
Josh Gerstein @joshgerstein.bsky.social ⋅ 2d
Aaron Rupar @atrupar.com ⋅ 2d
Pavel
@spavel.bsky.social ⋅ 12d
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“Like a five. But I’ll have another.”
“Hey, that adds up to ten!”
/co-workers, justifying a second helping of cake
To justify second helpings, you say you ate too much icecream and must get more to restore the balance. Then you *accidentally* get too much icecream and have to get more cake. *Repeat*
I don’t understand.
How much icecream is “too much”? Are you sure this is a real number?
Any amount of ice cream with cake is too much. Ice cream belongs in a separate bowl that does not touch the cake in any way.
Pfft! Who needs justification when it comes to eating extra helpings of cake.
I would be very sympathetic to Roz here but I have a very difficult belief she doesn’t rate men.
Not that, FYI, Joe isn’t being an ass.
I wouldn’t be surprised if she felt that the reverse was ok with the justification that it’s ok if women do it since they’re not the ones with the power.
Oh fuck both of you. Spoiler alert, women don’t really rate guys. It’s not a thing? Like they might think some guys are hot while others don’t do it for them. But they don’t have a pseudo-public system of using numbering systems to reduce men to objects because women don’t fucking have that power.
And inventing a false equivalence where it doesn’t fucking exist to justify shallow sexist bullshit that is openly connected to an active group of rapists who train others to rape like them?
Is pretty fucking bullshit.
False equivalencies aren’t cool, but neither are blanket generalizations. “Women don’t” isn’t really something you should start a sentence with unless you can back it up with something non-anecdotal or objective.
Not a critique of your point, but definitely a critique of how it’s framed.
(Prefacing corrections by saying “fuck you” is probably also not good practice, although I am sure there are fair personal reasons for the animosity).
Signed,
Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oh, cool, tone policing. I definitely have the patience for that tonight.
Yes, sir, sorry, sir, won’t happen again, sir, let me deign unto the majesty of your wisdom, sir.
Female here.
Of the woman type.
Cis if it matters.
I was a pretty hardcore bongo in college. All of my friends were as well. We rated the shit out of guys. Normally on a 1-5 scale (called them Cats like hurricanes).
As long as we are being anecdotal and shit.
Good for you.
We’re speaking about cultural conventions here.
Did somebody get the license of that goalpost? I think it sideswiped me on the way past.
“But they don’t have a pseudo-public system of using numbering systems to reduce men to objects because women don’t fucking have that power”
Didn’t sideswipe you, you walked into it because you weren’t paying attention.
Tone policing is especially important when shouting matches start between people earnestly making their points. Cerberus, you may not have patience for what TemporalShrew is trying to do, but from where I’m standing you’re blaming someone for trying to create a more rational atmosphere for discussion.
If someone’s point is something that wouldn’t be acceptable even if expressed politely, that’s when the banhammer should come out. It’s a private forum. First Amendment protections do not apply here, only our willingness to talk.
Tone policing is not good because it allows people to avoid difficult discussions because the other party was unable to distance themselves from their emotions enough to explain a situation without using emotional language whatsoever. It’s often been used as a derailment tactic to avoid important conversations. >a href=http://groupthink.kinja.com/on-tone-policing-why-its-bullshit-and-why-you-need-to-1148310719 title=This article> explains more
whoops sorry i ruined that link explains more. Also I know this isn’t a scientific site nor have I ever used it before, but I read this piece in its entirety and it’s saying the things I mean.
My bad on also ruining that link; apparently coding is not my strong suit and it’s 4am
For the record, I did read the article. Yeah, no, I don’t see the merits of its argument. Having good reasons for expressing something in an unreasonable manner, especially when that manner leads to the communication of plainly inaccurate information, is a mitigating circumstance.
Tone policing is why moderators exist on forums. It’s why moderators exist in debates. Just because some people abuse it to gaslight minorities doesn’t suddenly make it bad.
To be honest, I’ve always had trouble buying into the tone policing argument myself. Like, everyone has a right to be angry if someone says or does something shitty to them. Most people, I also feel, should be granted the minimum grace to make a mistake and apologize for it.
So if I accidentally say something shitty to someone that makes them hurt and angry, by all means, they should call me on it–and I would hope they would at least give me a chance to apologize and explain myself, even if they don’t forgive me or accept my explanation. And if I say that I don’t understand, I would hope that the injured party would have the patience and willingness to explain to me what I did wrong so that I can apologize appropriately (though they are by no means required to do so and I am okay with that).
I’m willing to listen and learn from my mistakes. But I do ask that others are polite, not because I want to silence them, but because there IS a line where you can take it too far and abuse people who probably didn’t deserve it. So while I am willing to listen and learn (and I think most people are too–but that just might be because I’m an optimist), I’m NOT going to take verbal abuse, and I will call out someone who attempts to use it on me or others. I think part of the reason I feel so strongly about this is because I recently came out of a relationship that was often characterized by emotional abuse against me that I permitted to go on because my ex-SO “had it worse” and therefore I didn’t have the “right” to speak up for myself because I didn’t have her disadvantages. It…kind of messed me up, so I’m determined not to let it happen to me again, or to other people if I think it can be stopped.
And while I neither can nor would I want to MAKE someone opt for a specific tone, I would caution that verbally abusing people who may otherwise be willing to listen is a good way to lose potential allies really quick.
Anyway, that’s my two cents. Maybe you agree, or maybe you think I’m a raging asshole. Both are valid views to take, I suppose. I generally tend to assume that I’ve been enough of a jerk in my youth that any vitriol thrown my way by strangers is probably deserved, but I’ve been trying to get out of that mindset because I only realized how unhealthy that was (not to mention that that mindset was based on a skewed perception of reality that had been built up over time due to isolation).
Anyway, I’m rambling now, so I’m just going to end this comment here. I hope it’s helpful to somebody (or if not helpful, then at least interesting…is that the right word?). I’m having strange thoughts again, so I’m just going to put on a movie and try to get some sleep.
Emotional abuse is a thing. Tone policing is a thing too. Sometimes it’s tricky to see the differences.
It’s possible to use anger and shouting over people to dominate and control the conversation. It’s also possible to use someone’s justified anger as an excuse to shut them down and again dominate and control the conversation.
*Looks up, looks down*
*deep pained sigh*
Okay, if we’re playing this game, here is what I mean:
While some women can be pieces of shit who borrow aspects of toxic masculinity culture*, there is no standardized culture nor are there encouragements for women to rate the people they are sexually attracted to on anywhere near the same level as exists for men. And women doing it in a pseudo-public fashion like this would be much more likely to encounter strong push back from their peers.
*One of my friends in college was a lesbian who fell hard into PUA awfulness and it was a long road clawing her back to not being a piece of shit.
And it is this normalized culture and it’s closeness to an actual organized movement of rapists teaching others how to rape more effectively that is a systematic problem that causes real harm not only to the women targeted by it, but also to the mean perpetuating it as it robs them of the right to non-normative attraction or romantic desire lest they be mocked or beaten by their male peers.
And the particular aspects of this culture means desperate attempts to make this a “both sides do it” false equivalence end up minimizing or erasing the real harm of these systems and disallows any real focus on dismantling this toxic system.
And “both sides do it” in general is a thing that makes me very angry at the moment because the abuse of that rhetorical tactic has gotten us to the point where the open movement to murder millions of Americans making extra sure to get a few kicks in on the ones most marginalized is all normalized as “just another side” and where we are so desperate for “both sides do it” BS that we’re screaming at angry scared kids setting trash cans on fire or trying to fight back against literal nazis because we so desperately need something the left is doing “wrong” to balance out the vile cruelty on the right.
And as for tone policing. Well, there’s a large amount of reasons why it’s a terrible practice, but I’m going to be very specific here instead.
Last night, I was desperately attempting not to harm myself, weeping my eyes out, because the US House of Representatives passed a law that is designed to kill me and all of my friends and make it so we can be denied any right to access health insurance ever again.
And also because the shiny orange fascist who stole the Presidency signed an Executive Order that says that an emergency worker can straight up deny me emergency care if they have a “religious objection” to me being trans. And since corporations are people now, it also means hospitals can choose to just kick me out or refuse to admit me if I need help. And this is coming at a time where violence against communities I belong to are increasing and literal nazis are coming into my general neighborhood looking to hurt people to defeat some nebulous idea of liberalism they have in their head.
And this horrible state of affairs is directly because of the bullshit uses of “both sides do it” normalizing hate and making it so folks are scared to call out Republican evil for what it is even when it is designed to kill me and everyone I love.
This all happened yesterday. But hey, I was uncivil in one of my many interactions and that civility matters more than humanity. Which, yes, I know. I know that I will die in the darkness and everyone will remark on how at least there was no unpleasantness about the whole affair. That’s what had me wanting to slit my wrists last night.
So yeah, for some strange reason I didn’t have patience for tone policing last night.
Like, given how 217 folks very civilly and without anger voted for a bill which if it passes the senate will kill me and everyone I love in fits and starts over years, so I get to experience one of the worst parts of the Plague Years (HIV crisis) for my very own, I’m not that big of a fan of civility at the moment, I’m terribly sorry to say.
@ Cerberus
-appropriate gesture of support-
I know everything is SUPER fucked right now, but hopefully this will make you feel a tiny bit better: the ACLU has issued a press release in response to the Apricot Hellbeast’s executive order. They described it as “fake news” and “an elaborate photo-op with no discernible policy outcome.”
Here’s the whole thing:
“Today’s executive order signing was an elaborate photo-op with no discernible policy outcome. After careful review of the order’s text we have determined that the order does not meaningfully alter the ability of religious institutions or individuals to intervene in the political process. The order portends but does not yet do harm to the provision of reproductive health services.
President Trump’s prior assertion that he wished to ‘totally destroy’ the Johnson Amendment with this order has proven to be a textbook case of ‘fake news.’ The directive to federal agencies to explore religious-based exceptions to healthcare does cue up a potential future battle, but as of now, the status quo has not changed.
What President Trump did today was merely provide a faux sop to religious conservatives and kick the can down the road on religious exemptions on reproductive health care services. We will continue our steadfast charge to defend Americans’ right to exercise their religion and ensure their freedom from having others’ beliefs forced upon them. The ACLU stands ready to sue the Trump administration and in the event that this order triggers any official government action at all, we will see Trump in court, again.”
Hang in there. And even though it absolutely does not feel like it’s true right now, please keep reminding yourself that it gets better.
Kit- That actually makes it a million times worse because it means we’re being cut off and left on our own.
Like, a lot of queer organizations have worries about Sec. 4 as it gives AG Sessions the right to determine what does and doesn’t count as a religious liberty exemption and he loathes us and wants us dead.
And even if it does turn out to be unenforceable that does not change the real impact on the ground level. Someone being able and maybe even succeeding at suing on behalf of me (and the fact that they might not even succeed) being left to die by emergency workers would not change the person believing that their “religious liberty” would be protected to do so.
Like there’s a million ways in which this will make already existing discrimination problems so so much worse.
And now the ACLU has abandoned us and made jokes about “fake news” instead.
Cerberus – The ACLU is not abandoning us. That’s not what they are saying at all. Their last sentence was “The ACLU stands ready to sue the Trump administration and in the event that this order triggers any official government action at all, we will see Trump in court, again.”
They’re saying that from a legal perspective, his EO doesn’t look like it actually changes anything. And Lambda Legal seems to agree:
“The executive order did not explicitly elevate various anti-LGBTQ views as exempt from anti-discrimination protections, and it is clear that the administration backed away from the draft order leaked in February because of the threat of lawsuits from Lambda Legal and others.
That is certainly a victory, as our opponents understand very well – “Trump Fails To Deliver on Religious Liberty,” according to the National Organization for Marriage.”
Lambda Legal was way less snarky and called the EO a “clarion call to his anti-LGBTQ minions, led by Jeff Sessions, to use every lever at their disposal to dismantle the progress that we’ve made over the last eight years” but they aren’t suing yet, either.
Like you said, bigots who believe the EO gives them discriminatory carte blanche are going to start discriminating. Hopefully if they know the law hasn’t changed, they won’t change their behavior for the worse. I suspect that, coupled with taking the wind out of Trump’s sail, motivated the ACLU’s statement.
I’m sorry. I was trying to point to something hopeful and “it’s less awful than we expected” is a pretty crappy substitute.
Kit-
No, sorry, I do appreciate the attempt. It’s just everything’s scary and awful right now and it keeps getting worse and worse.
Cerberus – You have nothing to apologize for. I’m scared, too. This political environment is fucking terrifying. And the 2018 election cycle is going to be brutal, which makes it even worse.
But we can’t give up. We can’t let the bastards win. Our community suffered through the fucking Plague while Ronald Republican-Jesus Reagan sat silently in the Oval Office letting us die and his press secretary literally laughed about it. But we’re still here. Queer people still exist. Our community made it through that. And we’ll make it through this, too.
In the words of our venerable elder-queers: Act Up. Fight Back.
Civility doesn’t work.
Because every time a marginalized person acts within the bounds of “civil,” the dominant group changes the definition. Peaceful protest was civil… until that football player took a knee, or that woman dared laugh at Sessions.
I’m not big on the touching, but hugs to those who’d like one.
Cerberus, I had no idea that ” an actual organized movement of rapists teaching others how to rape more effectively” exists and I am dumbfounded that this is tolerated. What does this group call themselves? Are they some kind of 4-Chan subculture or what?
They call themselves the red-pills. You’ve probably met them before.
What Pablo said. Red-pillers, men’s right activists, pick-up artists.
The last is the one that I’m most directly referring to as it’s all about “getting game” to “score chicks” but all the techniques that are popularized are about exploiting social norms against making a scene to escalate encroaching unwanted touch or coercing a not-saying-no by any means necessary up to and including the use of alcohol or other drugs.
Most of the big names in the scene are admitted rapists (RooshV, et al), and some have detailed their rapes and sold it as a how-to-guide to “struggling dudes” who just want to know how to “get laid”.
But all definitely trade in general tactics to get around consent as in their minds women totally secretly always want them because they are so manly and good at game, but women have to make a big show out of not wanting it, so it’s all about working your way around that and get the “notch” on your score-sheet that you can brag about to the fellows complete with “conquest report”.
Some of them even made a game out of specifically targeting women who said they were asexual “for the challenge”.
It’s honestly all really horrifying and awful.
They even teach this at professional events for professional therapists. I have sat in on those classes. What I learned at professional events is they abhor rape. Rape is wrong and evil. Instead, they recommend using various techniques of persuasion to convince women to say yes. That is certainly not rape. The woman said yes. Yes means it’s not rape. Right?
In professional settings they never say “women”. It is always “people”. And it is never about sex. (Sex with a client is genuinely verbotten.) It is about helping people achieve what is right for them, even it is something they did not realize they needed. Did you know these techniques can be used outside a professional setting, like at parties and bars, to help people become more comfortable talking to you? Those are great places to practice these techniques and a great way to make new friends.
At professional events, they phrase it in ways that are socially acceptable such as “Dynamic Conversational Therapy” or “Breaking Through Clients Barriers”. Pretty much everyone attending knows exactly what it is. The panels are attended by about a 65/35 mix of men/women.
Why are they tolerated? Because they offer something people want. Power over others.
For what it is worth, at the last conference I attended, several of us held a counter panel explaining why this was basically evil. We had a tenth of the attendance their panels had. Sigh.
@ Falcon & Songbird – First, tone policing is when you say a point is invalid because it was angrily or rudely phrased, which is what TemporalShrew was doing. That’s utter bullshit and frankly, it’s not bullshit I am willing to put up with anymore. Especially because ‘but it turns off allies!!!!’ is utter bullshit – first, if people only give a fuck about other people being oppressed when they aren’t angry, you don’t actually give a fuck about it, and second, because it’s untrue. I’ve known far too many people who’ve learned that way to put any stock in that bullshit argument. That is not about ‘rational atmosphere for discussion’ it’s about not wanting to listen. And frankly, I’m done with it.
So is the new rule that only men can critique men and women can only critique women? Separate but equal? Because anyone starting off any argument with “Fuck You” regardless of what’s between their legs will shut the listeners ears.
A shitty tone is how you pick fights. Oooooooh well okay troll on you. Good job i almost didn’t notice you were trolling people well have fun.
Fuck you too. Because women doing it is very much generally not a thing. Some probably do, because people suck, but culturally speaking it’s very much more geared towards men doing it regarding women. And fuck you for doing the ‘call outs that aren’t 100% polite aren’t good practice, people don’t listen!!!’ bullshit.
And fuck you again for knowing you’re nitpicking about something serious, and doing it anyways.
My apologies to Willis if this crosses the line and definitely delete if it did.
I think there’s maybe differences in what “rate” is being taken to mean here, because it’s absolutely true that people judge other people’s looks and personality (and accomplishments, and family, and friends, and job, and hobbies, and etc) all the time. It isn’t even confined to “would I like to sleep with this person” either. So if that’s what you mean by “rate”, then, yeah, women rate men too. And other women. And men rate men and women.
But that’s a bit of a trite observation, y’know? It’s so obvious, it doesn’t really need to be said. And so when someone says women rate men, the assumption is that “rate” is referring to precisely the kind of thing Joe’s doing right here. And that’s a verrrrrrrrry different thing than the general process everybody does. It’s a very specific kind of objectifying and it’s done by a specific subgroup of people.
It’s also interesting, I feel, how systematizing something can change perfectly ordinary, unremarkable behaviours into something uncomfortable. Consider Dorothy and her spreadsheet on the dorm residents. It’s entirely expected — in fact, social graces demand it — that you keep at least some kind of tabs on the people around you, yeah? You’ll probably know when friends or family are going on trips, stuff they’re working on, who they’re dating, etc. But if you start writing that stuff down, start organizing it, it starts looking more like spying.
Same in some ways here. Nobody, I think, would have any problem with Joe thinking, say, that Roz is more attractive than Joyce (aside from, like, waifu wars). Hell, I don’t think people’d have problems with Joe changing his opinions on that based on Joyce decking him, yeah?
But Joe’s got this all systematized, and what’s more it’s a very reductionist kind of system in reducing people to not only a number, but JUST a number. So it’s got all sorts of creepy and demeaning overtones, and then he compounds those by putting these ratings out in public, which is an asshole manouver on many, many levels.
thank you this is exactly what i meant <3
I might be one of the few people who felt Dorothy’s spreadsheet was a wonderful thing that would help her do her job better. I mean, I might be more self-conscious about what I say around her, but as far as being an RA goes writing down stuff relevant to keeping me happy and the dorm well-run sounds like a good idea to me.
I didn’t say it’s a bad idea. It’s vital, even, as you scale up; if you’re running an enterprise of any scale you have to have files on the people involved, the people you’ve networked with outside the organization, etc. The trick to making it work, at least if you’re aiming for a positive impression, is to not give the impression that you have them (let alone are relying on them).
Remember stuff about somebody and they’ll be flattered; recite a file and they’ll be pissed.
I get it. I also feel that it’s a weakness in the human condition that needs to be compensated for mentally. I certainly would be flattered if someone remembered. But I’d actively work to not be uncomfortable if someone told me where they kept the record of it. Whether they remember what I like because I made an impression or because they’re just that damn good shouldn’t be a possibl epenalty for them.
Or I guess you could be Miles Vorkosigan and be able to remember everything about thousands of people, but most of us aren’t.
Yup, this.
A critique of your comment: Cerberus is a woman, so she is an expert on what women (generally) do.
A further critique of your comment: nitpicking the style of other people’s comments while ignoring their content is a classic derailing technique. it’s curious that you’re more critical of Cerberus’ framing than of the sexism displayed in this comment thread, which is surely a much more significant issue.
conclusion: fuck you
That’s… not really valid. I’m a man and I am absolutely not an expert on what “men generally do” because they’re billions of ’em and I’m not like most at all. I’m an expert on what I do, and to some extent an expert on what people I like do, but I have no idea about the general population of “men” because I don’t know, or like, most of them.
Unless you want to imply all women are the same, you can’t claim to be an expert just because you’re one out of billions of them.
:)))
generalizations aren’t implied to be true of every single person ever, that’s why they’re generalizations. it’s like the mean in a data set. it’s a basic point that recurs often enough to be relevant to argument and discussion.
inherent in the concept of women is the concept of femininity, which entails what makes femininity distinct from other modes of gender expression, the specific struggles of existing in that gender expression, and the socialization imposed upon people living in that gender expression. so if enough people who identify as women say they have a problem with this specific thing, it’s a reasonable generalization to say that women do, even if not all women in all places do to the same extent.
for example: people die. not all people have died, but death is an experience that most people are going to have had. generally speaking, death is something all people are going to struggle with. even if not all people have experienced death personally or to their loved ones, most people are going to at least be aware of death, or come across it.
for example: they estimate 1 out of 8 women in the US have been raped. that’s not nearly as many as those who have been sexually assaulted, or who have experienced sexism. even if you don’t experience sexism as sexism, sexism is still going to be a large part of your experience simply because it’s so prevalent.
so, in conclusion: fuck you, for quibbling on immaterial details and ignoring the larger problems that literally kill women every single goddamn day
Please see my long long long long long reply comment below.
Tldr version is that the women who rate men are objectively rare, it revolves around penises from the only example I have, and everyone not them strongly disapproved on many levels. And then a rebuttal on her views on penises courtesy of my father and a PSA on protection.
There’s a fine line between attending to the civility of a discussion and tone policing.
Attending to civility is preventing either side from making threats, kys remarks, jokes about things which are not funny, keeping the discussion focused on relevant topics, and devolving the conversation into an ad hominem shouting match.
Tone policing is telling people to not be angry, or otherwise emotional, because “emotions have no place in a debate,” which is not true. And swearing does not subtract from a conversation; its an important qualifier of intensity: see “fucking garbage bill” vs “garbage bill.” One shows anger and the other annoyance.
If you’re not well practiced in keeping the civility of a conversation without tone policing, I’d recommend not trying to do so, and leave it to the people who know how to do it intuitively.
I’m not very proud about this but we did rate our classmates back in middle school. We had a complex system of looks, kindness, brains and funniness.
Nothing you did in middle school counts for anything. *boards up closet full of zombies*
I apologize for that observation and stand corrected. I hope things will turn around for you soon, Cerberus.
With the very rare exception of things like the Lulu ap, there is none of the history of rating men the way women casually are rated by others and I don’t want to dismiss Joe’s boorish behavior or make it cute or harmless.
Thank you.
Thinking about and feeling for you & yours in this time of resurgent evil: be well.
That means a lot to me too, thank you. <3
Most of the women I know do this. Are they not real women to you?
I guess I’m not a thing then. I rate boys.
Yes, this is a very complicated social issue in which male dominance shows very clearly, and yeah, it’s mostly males objectifying women simply because they can due to complex social structures. But my idea is that the solution to this isn’t teaching males to stop them from objectifying women, because this is simply not gonna fucking happen lmao, centuries of fucked up hierarchy between sexes and oppression isn’t gonna go anywhere ever. Instead, women should be encouraged to objectify males, take some power in their own hands and thus try to make things a bit more equal.
It’s a similar concept to my body negativity theory, or maybe it’s even a part of it. Instead of forcing the public to accept women without makeup and without fit bodies in the name of body positivity, men should be shamed for not looking good enough. Men should have unrealistic body standards posed in front of them as well. It should be basic for them to put some concealer on in the morning to avoid the “you look tired” comments, just like how it happens to women. But of course for this to work, men first have to be treated as objects, otherwise their looks will never be as important as of a female’s.
I mean fuck. Making things better clearly doesn’t work, we have to try to make things equally bad so that at least we have equality in some ways.
See my earlier comment about birds and mammals.
But what about all those Cosmo articles that rate actors by their abs, or olympians by their speedo bulges? I would think that is contributing to societal norms. Plus the comment is ABOUT ONE girl in particular. She can be the exception to any societal norms.
Since when is Cosmo considered a valid authority on anything?
since he ran Knowhere and is awesome, especially when he teams up with Guardians of the Galaxy in the comics.
A joke or completely missing the point, I honestly can’t tell.
Explain.
times are tough
Yes, women rate guys. It’s a thing? Maybe not a thing you do, but a thing that happens? Fact.
Cerberus is speaking of societal norms. So no, not really.
Yeah neither do men. It’s a bullshit TV Show trope that in 36 years neither myself nor the other men I interact with have ever used or even had something similar. Just like you we either find someone hot or not.
As a female, I can say I don’t rate. I might comment on a famous guy I find attractive whom my other friends will either agree that he is, say he doesn’t do it for them, and the friend who basically say they see the appeal but not for them. And me liking girls? Also don’t rate. I’m either attracted to them, get attracted later after talking and loving their personality, or doesn’t appeal to me.
The only women I’ve seen rating guys ever were my biological mother and her friends and it was 0 about looks and all about dicks and yes, other women were not okay with that either. My mother was not a good person either.
I don’t agree with her assessment either because cis women (and trans women who have gone through surgery) are different sizes just like cis men (and trans men who go through either lots of surgery and/or hormones) and what feels like a great match with a former partner might not work for the new one (speaking of this, never ever EVER compare us to your former girlfriend especially if it’s to say they loved this so you must have something wrong with you. Speaking from experience). My dad also went into the TMI department, but as a former hippy with over a hundred female sexual partners (WITH NO COMDOM! HOW DID IT NOT FALL OFF!?!) and had an almost legendary reputation even with a penis of around 5 inches erect which several women laughed at at first, but not for long especially with his (TMI Dad!) long foreplay sessions beforehand. I have also (burn my ears please) had this confirmed by many former lovers. I did really appreciate the education, the healthy framing and explaining of female of body shapes that kept me from having issues with the shape of my own breasts and labia, learning the importance of warming up and care afterwards, the dangers of a lot of products, the positivity in natural smell and look (including washing with Dove and shaving is a fairly new thing which can chafe or even friction burn, so if you do be careful. If you don’t, leave as is or trim with something like scissors if you can be careful or with a men’s electric beard trimmer on a longer setting), and so much more, but I really didn’t need so much detail like the threesome story or that married woman who made you jump out the window when hubby got home early (he was faithful to people he was in a relationship with, but if he was single and they wanted it, he didn’t check their status).
Also, use condoms and/or dental dams (yes people. going down on a vagina haver requires protection too regardless of what arrangement the giver has in their pants). Carry the things. Give them out to your kids and nieces and nephews and cousins and tell them how to tell if condoms are too small (red ring at the base after fun time), how to use a dental dam (and how to make in emergencies), and latex (allergies because OW! that is no freaking fun even if it’s the mild kind). My dad has bad cold sores (herpes), he had crabs several times, so very many yeast infections (yes boys can get them too with uncircumcised usually feeling the burn and circumcised usually being mostly asymptomatic giving it back to their partner over and over like the worst re gift ever), and some strange STD that he got from bio mom (who also slept around) that required him to paint his dick blue with medicine. I also have 1 confirmed brother of unknown name who’s mother married another guy and passed it off as his after moving to another state. This is just what I know. So wrap it up people!
I’ll believe wouldn’t be surprised, but then why? I think you’d be hard pressed to find evidence of Roz numbering people, or any comparable hypocrisy. So then it would have to be because that’s just how you think people work: women who ask not to be treated as objects just tend to be hypocrites. In which case, jeez, go listen to some women instead of just picking up stereotypes from people who hate them.
It sets a bad precedent to turn that personal rating into a searchable online database.
Which is how Facebook got started so, yes, it is explicitly evil.
Wait, Facebook started with what?
The same guy that made facebook created hot or not like site called facemash. I don’t have the time to actually research further but whatever. The story of facebook is super backstabby anyway.
ehhhhhhhhhh i don’t think she does
like i mean she slept with joe, her standards for dudeflesh are low already. in that i mean she isn’t idealizing some perfect dude who can idealize her ideals and help her fight injustice everywhere: she’s fucking who she wants to fuck because she wants to do it. rating people doesn’t really seem to come into it, imo. it’s not like she was ever ashamed of people knowing who’d she’d fucked. it doesn’t hurt that joe’s hot, but it’s not on the same level.
the lady-rating system is something that has a much more pernicious history going back AGES (legit, in Pride and Prejudice all of the sisters know exactly how attractive they are in relation to one another. creeptastic.). if you want to get Biblical, goes back to Leah and Rachel having to compete against each other for the same dude, who they both married, because their dad was an ass.
to be gender binarist while i’m generalizing, women aren’t socialized to think about men the same way that men are socialized to think about women. we’ve been taught all our lives to see men as people who are more people than us, whereas men are taught to see themselves as the most significant people in any situation. so. like. ladies (generally) might talk about who’s the hottest, but it’s something that’s going to come down to personality as much as looks.
granted, rating dudes is a thing that some groups might do in rebellion against said socialization, but…i honestly don’t see how roz would find the time. like if you care about feminism at all, you’re going to prioritize women, and rating dudes is not really on that agenda. it’s just going back and making everything about men again, which is kind of besides the point.
I thought Joe was actually attractive, physically.
He just also has creep tendencies.
i mean he’s not my cup of tea but that’s because i don’t like bullshit in my tea
:slow clap:
-bows- thank you, i’ll be here all night
And now I’m wondering what that looks like…
Bullshit tea? Probs like a really viscous cocoa
im assuming diarrhea
or just, like, tea, but with a giant shit clod in it
It all depends on the preparations really.
WARNING – TMI ZONE
I once had to QC “Real Bullshit” tm which was a followup to the pet rock.
The raw material was steam sterilized, compacted, freeze dried and hermetically sealed in a poly-carbonate capsule. The raw material supplier mentioned that they also made various specialty products including tea – using a similar process but with a cold washing stage and ending with grinding of the solid plant matter into a powder.
ewwwwwwwwwwww
I SWEAR TO GOD I WAS JUST GOING FOR A REALLY JUICY METAPHOR
Even if she rates men she probably doesn’t go around telling them their rating, and she certainly doesn’t have a semi-public “do list” with a bunch of ratings on it.
Doubt it. Even if she did, I don’t think Joe would like his ranking. She seems primarily interested in him for sex – she keeps him silent during.
So you’re deciding, with no evidence whatsoever, that Roz is privately guilty of doing what Joe does publicly and that makes her unworthy of sympathy for being publicly called out on Joe’s “to do” ranking for her? You recognize that Joe is being an ass (and that is the mildest we should call this behavior) but figure she probably has it coming because… reasons? I’m with Cerberus. Fuck you indeed.
Actually, I think of Roz as an awful person in general because of the way she treats her sister. How she manipulates people in the not-election. How she treated her teacher when she got what she wanted (abandoning her despite the fact television shows Robin is squatting in Leslie’s house).
All of this has nothing to do with her treatment of the opposite sex or gender relations, though, so I am sorry for that.
Roz is a character I really have a complicated history about because I agree with all of her politics. I also have many fundamentalist (former associates) I’ve tried to lead away to a more inclusive view of the world/less assholish one. Roz coming down on Joyce the way (during an awakening of conscience) she did felt very much like punching down and has colored my opinion of her ever since.
Fine. We’re in agreement that Roz is not the hero in this story. I agree that she has done some awful things that she deserves to be called out for. That in no way justifies or makes acceptable Joe publicly objectifying her in front of the class (that she shouldn’t have been teaching and she handled with aplomb anyway) or referencing a hateful white nationalist to shut down her attempt to deflect that objectification.
And coming down on Joyce may have been overly harsh, but it was not punching down. Joyce was in no way in a disadvantaged opinion. In the case of that class, Joyce coming from a conservative Christian background is the advantaged opinion. While Roz’s anger may not have been productive in the specific case of Joyce, it was sure as hell justified.
I just read your apology to Cerb and will stand down on my complaints about your prior comments vis-a-vis Joe’s rating system. I appreciate your willingness to listen.
Hang on, you dislike Roz, because of how she treats Robin? What? You sure you didn’t get those names transposed?
I assume they mean Riley, not Robin, but that’s kind of a silly thing to say, too.
I’m of the mind that plotting to out her sister via Leslie is something that’s so calculated that it’s difficult to sympathize with her. I say that thinking Robin is a monstrous person and possibly a sociopath in this universe. I can’t imagine doing that to a sibling–even one whose politics I despise with every core of my being.
Her plan was for Robin to out herself voluntarily – i.e. come out of the closet. She just wasn’t upset when Robin was outed, because it meant she wasn’t going to be re-elected.
Don’t forget to take roll, Roz.
Leslie: absent
I think Roz might have a bit of performance anxiety…
Eh, considering Robin, Roz is probably a confident speaker and/or good at hiding her nerves. But she did get pushed into lecturing an entire class without preparation on a subject that has defined a lot of her past actions, complete with follow-up questions from Joe, so that probably hasn’t been helping her. Yeah, given her odd quietness, it seems like she has some temporary performance anxiety. How long will it last?
She hands out condoms wearing a condom hat.
Maybe she should teach women’s studies with a copy of the 1868 novel Little Women on her head.
Don’t rate women, Joe.
Even Tomi Lahren?
Even Tomi Lahren. Whoever that is.
All the Blonde Republican Robots run together. Except the one NBC reprogrammed.
Former talking head on Glenn Beck’s network. She and Beck are currently in a legal dispute over her dismissal.
I forgot they settled this week.
–oh, right, the republican conservative media lady. I’d blissfully forgotten about her.
Yeah, rate her politics if you want, but don’t rate women, Joe.
She was in the public eye for saying things against Black Lives Matter, and other forms of peaceful protest by black people. She was stupid enough to say “But what did the kkk really even do?” on the Daily Show. Through all of this it was her sharing her pro-choice stance that got her fired from a conservative platform. She tried to rally up support for herself as if people didn’t remember the racist things she said. Which prompted my favorite response from Trevor Noah, “I was so offended that I wanted to protest it. Unfortunately, there’s no type of black people protest that Tomi is comfortable with, so I guess we should just move on.”
…. MAYBE rating based on personality and basic humanity? …. regardless of gender?
……. do I feel okay or kinda icky with that suggestion? My subconscious can’t really decide. The result is weird.
Rating women reduces them to commodities. Rating Tomi Lahren should be about the fact she’s individually an awful person.
Rating people, especially out loud, assumes that you’re the almighty judge of their true inherent worth, and everyone should listen to your awesome judgments. It’s not a very chill thing to do.
Judge not, lest ye be judged, but don’t stay silent about buttheads either.
moreover it disrespects their complexity and their humanity.
Don’t rate women, Joe.
Or dudes.
Because not all humans even if they are taking apart Autobots.
Don’t rate women, Joe.
All this repetition of the words, “don’t rate women, Joe”, is making this page look like the lyrics to an old blues song.
You can think someone’s bad, but that’s different from rating. There’s a difference between liking a group of songs and having a top 10’s list. Everyone who likes music has certain songs they like, but creating a top 10’s list is morally wrong. Wait wha
I feel like that sentence sort of … got away from me there.
At least not aloud.
Don’t rate women, Joes.
Don’t rate woman!Joes.
I knew we’d cut to what Joe was doing eventually!
I’d be surprised he knows who she is but I suppose he could watch the daily show or hang out with Roz enough to have heard about her. I’m guessing the latter since he seems to bring her up as someone he knows Roz can’t stand.
I think Joe is fairly observant and politically aware. It’s just he doesn’t WANT to think about these things. He’s determined to make college a nonstop singles bar and learn nothing.
“Roz, from one ten to another.”
“I’m an eleven but continue.”
“Don’t rate women, Roz.”
“I’m a thirteen, which means I can rate myself however I want.”
No, you can’t rate yourself however you want until you’re an eighteen.
Hang on… If you’re rating yourself however you want, but have to be an eighteen, it’s a paradox unless you want to be an eighteen. At which point, I guess I’ll go with pi divided by zero.
i’m an adult now, mom! i’m in eighth grade! i can do whatever i want! *slams the fridge door* WE NEED MORE CAPRI-SUNS, WE’RE OUT!
Capri-Sun is amazing.
as an adult I rediscovered juice boxes and those little orange crackers that come in the tiny plastic packages (4 to a plastic wrapped bag) that come in boxes of 12+.
Kids food tastes great, guys.
It does make me feel a little self-conscious eating several of the to take the edge off (especially the juice boxes), but fuck it. they taste GREAT!
I speak specifically of the Keebler/off-brand orange cheese/peanut buttery sandwich crackers.
mmmmmmmm……
it’s pretty good
pretty sugary
good childhood memory
The best part about capri sun is that it comes in an opaque pouch so they don’t put any dyes in.
Re: Alt Text
Whatevs. Joe’s gonna Joe. It’s what he does.
Unfortunately.
I really don’t understand his rating system.
Damn it, Joe.
The degrading nature of Joe’s comment would be less ambiguous were he and Roz not presently boning.
It adds such a creepy extra layer of awful to it.
They’re boning presently? No wonder she wants to end class early!
**rimshot**
Joe’s johnson is just that long. He somehow managed to snake it under the desk. If anything I APPLAUD Roz’s composure.
you say this, but all i imagine is joe with a really long sausage that he is pretending is his penis, by which approximately nobody is fooled
If I remember from when Dorothy interviewed him post sextape, Joe was actually insecure about the size of his genitalia claiming that it was actually bigger, just obscured because well it was in Roz’s vagina. Odds are he’s probably perfectly normal sized down there but insecure because he thinks either
a) the average penis size is larger than it actually is
or
b) that the larger one’s penis the more manly and sought after one is (which isn’t true, when it comes to genitalia bigger is not always better, especially considering the disparity in size between between him and Roz, if his penis was as big as he seems to want it to be, he could actually probably hurt her, but I haven’t seen any of the slipshines so maybe I’m wrong)
I think Joe and she were a one-off. Joe is now the mancandy of a certain corrupt British TA.
The one who doesn’t have sex with Walky for grades.
Not just a one-off, they occasionally hooked up (though you’d mostly know that from the anthology slipshine story) for at least a while afterwards… She might have gotten over him during one of these classes, though.
Joe also referred to them as an open relationship in the paper. Normally I’d say he was joking, but I’m not sure Dorothy would put that in her super serious article. Plus Joe doesn’t strike me as saying things like that when he just say he’s still single, ladies.
Since apparently ladies want to screw this jerk.
I don’t often compliment Joe, but I assume that he must be a very good redpill.
Indeed, he’s a very good PUA that just pretends to give a shit about consent.
I think Joe genuinely cares about consent, in theory, but has picked up some awful ideas about what it means in practice.
We are talking about the guy who once said to Joyce: “[Having sex with] you, no. A drunker version of you, maybe!”
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2011/comic/book-1/06-yesterday-was-thursday/frequency/
Between that and more examples than I could possibly link to, I’d say that if this is “genuinely caring about consent”, then KKK are indeed also just “genuinely caring about our society” (or whatever the hell they claim to be whenever they state they’re not racist scumbags).
They’re not presently boning. It would be a more interesting class session if they were.
“Geeeeeez. Every class session is the frigging same. In, out, in, out, orgasm, repeat. Is it too much to ask to change it up with some PowerPoint instead?”
‘Presently?’ Jeez, what’s going on out of frame?
yeeeeeeeeee
on the other hand she’s still on his “to do list”
on the other other hand, he has a “to do list”
it’s not even a to do list. it’s a do list. the fuck, joe.
initially read this as “reeeeeeeeeeee”
Which…..changes things.
In a bit of a humorous way.
I like to think she’s just judging his behavior but I do wonder how much was Roz remembering she’s actually slept with Joe and everyone knows it. Which means she’s been undercut publicly in front of her peers. I do think Joe isn’t being deliberately mean, though. It’s just Roz is up against a redheaded British woman of considerable evil and charm. She’s hard to top.
Yeah, Penny’s always the top.
Pennia Onatopp
Joe: “You can’t give every woman a 10”
Roz: “They’re good women, Brent”
12/10
*brint
*burnt
Nice.
<333333
I’m sure this joke was funnier when Lahren had a career
Well didn’t Willis say he wrote these six months in advance or something?
Oh, the buffer is not that long, whoops.
But she’s been in the news this week(proving Willis has precognitive powers) because she did an interview for Playboy, and for ending her dispute with Glenn Beck.
She’s currently working to try and incite violence against college students and supporting a group of violent nazis with a history of domestic assault to go to areas seen as “liberal” so they can beat up folks while the cops watch and laugh.
And she regularly shows up on Fox News to actively try and incite genocide against non-white people. While also writing a regular column where she does the same.
But hey, she doesn’t have a “career” so…
It’s a problem i have with making mockery of a lot of present political figures. There’s really nothing to joke about them. Dan Quayle jokes are funny. Jokes about people trying to incite terrorism but allowed because it’s against the “wrong” kind of people is the prelude to the Handmaiden’s Tale.
I encountered a Dan Quayle quote this week (“…best educated American people…”) and had a wave of nostalgia for when “President Quayle” was considered a scary thing to say. Those were good time. I didn’t know it at the time, but those were very good times indeed.
I remember thinking something like that during the (2nd) Bush years. Now I think that about those days and I’m dreading someday looking back on the Trump years as “Well, he really wasn’t that bad compared to ‘X'”.
Of course, I’m not likely to be one of the few survivors stumbling through the irradiated wastelands, so I probably don’t have to worry.
At this rate the only way someone could be worse than Trump is if they were competent.
so……..if Pence got actually installed in the President’s seat?
It’s hard to say. Possibly more likely to get nasty stuff passed. OTOH, less likely to stumble into a nuclear war or other civilization ending disaster.
That book is garbage. I picked it up with no context, and only finished it due to a personal compulsion.
Another fun current events note regarding the Robin storyline is there’s currently a circuit split amongst the appellate courts as to whether the Civil Rights Act applies to sexual orientation and gender identity. The 7th Circuit said yes and the 2nd Circuit said no. The 7th Circuit covers Indiana, however, so until the Supreme Court resolves the split one way or the other, Robin’s campaign is quite meaningless as these are protected classes in Indiana.
meaningless? No.
It riles up the base.
Ineffective as law? Sure.
Roz is still reading Leslie’s notes…
Joe is very predictable
Leslie going all “Your next line will be…” while striking a Jojo pose.
I was just thinking today “hey I wouldn’t mind the becky/robin conversation going on because becky’s a saint” so I have 0 surprise this happened.
Time for Roz to throw out the lesson plan and give an impromptu lecture inspired by Joe perhaps?
It would probably end up like where Ethan tried to lecture the Store Nerd only for the Store Nerd to point out Ethan was a kidnapper. Thus, the entire strip crashing. FYI – Ethan was a lot better character when he was pure evil.
Joe is comic relief
Comic relief? Not quite.
He’s almost 2 dimensional, but he leaves an impression. He’s the basest of bas reliefs.
…..
Yeah, okay, that pun didn’t work. I just had to work too hard in order to sculpt it.
Good try anyways!
I Appreciate You
The best way to see more detail from him is a rubbing.
Basest Bassist Bas Relief is the name of my generic brand of Preparation H.
“…..and here you will find my earliest work, which I called ‘1st Base’s Bassist’s Basest Bas Relief.’ It is a bas relief of a human sitting on a toilet, playing on his smart phone.”
Well, keep chipping away at it.
*plays Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band’s “Tenth Avenue Freeze-Out” on the hacked Muzak*
I’m going to say it, there’s nothing wrong with feeling different levels of attraction for different people.
Quantifying that difference is probably a slippery slope though.
Putting that quantified list out there for public observation where people are free to use it as a simple, easy, inherently flawed way to judge their worth as a person is inherently dangerous.
So long as the differentiation is rational, then it is also quantifiable.
….. wait, is sex drive rational?
Not with that attitude, no.
No. No it is not. In concept and theory it is, but in practice it tends to be quite irrational in its implementation.
The problem with rating people isn’t so much that the system isn’t good enough, it’s because it reduces somebody’s complexity/humanity to some number. People really don’t like being reduced to some scant few aspects like that.
It’s okay if you like one classmate more than another. But it’s not chill to say that one classmate is, like, more inherently worthwhile than another.
Welp I screwed up my words. I meant to say that from an evolutionary stand point having a sex drive seems logical for a species to survive, but within our species is both highly irrational in how it affects people and that some people simply do not have it (a sex drive) either. I in no way meant to imply that rating a person is a good thing, and would like to deeply apologize if I did.
…
This is why it normally takes me a half hour to come up with a good joke: I screw up the deliver horribly. Sorry.
Aw! Don’t worry, you didn’t come across that way, I was continuing the conversation in general.
There are asexual animals as well. It’s been observed in sheep, bonobos*, etc…
*The bonobos one is said because bisexual orgies is how bonobos determine in-group and out-group so ace bonobos end up having to go it alone because no group trusts them because they don’t orgy with the rest of them.
*sad
It may actually be, but there are so many complex variables (evolution, upbringing, brain chemistry, environment…) that you couldn’t begin to quantify it in any rational form.
I’d make a joke about sex being measured with imaginary numbers, but that just sounds sad.
“Hey baby, what say we go get some coffee, and try to see where ‘i’ fits into your life?”
i feel like that was definitely a thing in american high schools in the eighties
It wouldn’t even be so bad to quantify levels of attraction someone feels. The problem comes from pinning that number on the person in question.
1. It implies it’s a constant property of them, so how everyone should feel about them, when even one person need not feel the same attraction all the time.
2. Worse, it tends to become a statement of their worth, as if all they were for is being attractive. Especially for women.
Joe, quit being such a jackass.
I do admit, it’s kind of interesting Joe points out a demonstrably not ten person is so because of her personality and beliefs not looks. Is this a sign of Joe’s tastes or because he’s trying to dig into Roz.
Why not both?
Pretty sure he’s made a comment or two in the past that imply personality is a factor in his rating system.
I fail to see how it couldn’t be part of any particularly rigorous rating system.
I can’t remember which kind Joe really had, but maybe its the Barney-kind? The crazier a woman is, the hotter she has to be to compensate for that and still be attractive? (and ideally you’d want more “hot” and less “crazy”…)
My system:
What do you think of Hufflepuffs?
If Slytherin: “Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal.”
If Ravenclaw: “Do you know Neil deGrasse Tyson?”
If Gryffindor: Throw my drink in their face and screech about them being glory hounds.
If Hufflepuff: Hugs and Butterbeer and Friendship forever.
I’m more shocked by Joe’s willingness to rate ANYTHING a 10/10.
Like I’m super stingy. I will almost never rate anything a 10/10 because there’s almost nothing I believe is Wholely perfect.
…Maybe FLCL. MAYBE.
FLCL is pretty damn amazing.
I can’t think of any flaws in it off the top of my head and so that’s why I’m not sure if I’d call it a perfect 10. Just…a really great story.
PYON!
For Joe, that wouldn’t stop her from being a “10”. It would at most (if Joe cared) just earn her 10 an asterisk after it, and a footnote of “hatefuck”.
pretty sure the correct answer is “you can’t rate people on a number scale” roz
Except when you can. For example, age. People are ranked on how many years they’ve been alive using a number scale.
But if you attach value onto those numbers, where one age is inherently superior to another, that’s ageism, and it wouldn’t be very nice.
…….
DOWN WITH THE AGEIST MPAA! MARCH ON THE CINEMAS WITH PITCHFORKS, TORCHES, AND FOOD WE BROUGHT FROM HOME!
This protest is absolutely disgusting. The ageism, we can budge on. Bringing your own food from home, though? That’s actively circumventing the cinema’s only real source of income, and we simply can’t allow that. Now, you’re going to get legal pushback from the cinemas, who will now be demanding a mandatory search right at the door, for exactly this reason.
Occupy Cinemas!
Especially when they’re playing movies that you enjoy.
I’d feel bad about it if their prices were more reasonable.
oh she did say that in the last panel nvm
Still, “all women are tens” has a whole other set of problems.
You gotta rank them by letters. ie. Joyce is A-rank, Sierra is S-rank, etc.
weeb
No.
Dudes, do we really need to “notallmen” this? Yes, people shouldn’t be treated like numbers, but there’s only one gender that has a giant creepy and dangerous culture built around the practice.
And hell, she’s not even saying that men shouldn’t rate women. She’s saying that Joe shouldn’t rate women, because that’s what he’s doing. Like if he was doing the same dehumanizing bullshit to men as well, I’m sure Roz would call him out on it as well, but he’s not.
gotta love toxic masculinity /sarcasm
Toxic masculinity is the one where you force yourself to be capital-M Manly at all costs, violently rejecting anything you arbitrarily decide is UnManly for fear of being corrupted and turned gay, right?
Yup.
im amused joe knows roz well enough to know she hates tomi lahren
honestly roz seems like the type to be extremely open about her politics, so I’m not surprised at all
well: yes: this: but also that he was paying attention to her talking about politics to know that this is exactly the kind of thing that would set her off
which is not that charming, considering tomi lahren, so….yeah
I admire that Roz is staunchly doing her best to substitute-teach the class that was totally sprung on her. That’s some courage, right there, and she’s maintaining her composure vs. Joe and everything.
Absolutely true, here.
I did not expect her to do that. I thought she’d snarl, throw the lesson plan on the floor and stalk out.
Instead, she taught the class. Not in depth. Because she got through the lesson plan with time left over.
But she gets points from me.
I here the name Tomi lahren and I emdiatly start flipping mental tables.
As much as we may not want to admit it, We’re all ALWAYS ranking people, even subconsciously. It’s just sorta rude to vocalize it.
Hell I rank myself.
I’m a solid 6. Not all that ugly but not exactly charismatic and definitely grating in large quantities.
We totally do! We’re judging machines, after all. But it’s super rude to imply that your system is, like, the Truth, and/or that everyone should listen to your awesome judgments on them.
I don’t! I don’t rank people at all! You judgy judgers are clearly at least two rank below me!
…..
…. I have just been informed that you are also “hippo crazy”, whatever that means.
Exactly. Just keep your pre-decided list of pros and cons unless y’know…someone’s asking you “hey whaddya think of ____”. And even then I’d probably just list the pros and cons without saying my mental rating, even though I’m sure you can gleam where they’d fall based on that.
I didn’t realize you meant that there was a specific number attached that allows you to compare people to each other. How do you even compare them, do they take some kind of standardized test?
That’s not exactly what I meant at all. I’m more saying the appeal of anyone is subjective and we’re all constantly judging people based on our own biases. We’re just quantifiably aware of the amount someone appeals to us compared to what some mythical PERFECT person would be.
Interesting! I don’t notice myself thinking that way, I just know that I like people a little, or I like them a lot, or I think they’re the cat’s meow. Perfection hasn’t entered into it for me.
Not me either, to be honest. I don’t even think “the perfect person” would be palpable. But I think I mentally have all the features of a person I’d love mentally in my subconscious. Everyone has positive AND negative features so obviously you’d never meet a perfect mate. And the more someone meets all the features I find attractive/makes me realize things I find attractive will certainly have more of an immediate appeal.
Even when it comes to friends I certainly have lots of friends I love hanging out with significantly more than others and though, while I’m hanging out with them I’m not thinking about all the features that make them more approachable to me or want to create a solid “number” for their appeal, I sincerely believe that I do have a subconscious “rank” for just how much I enjoy them.
I think there’s a difference here between how our culture looks at women and how our culture looks at men. For women, there’s a set ‘ideal’ that they are supposed to strive towards, that men are supposed to be attracted to with only minor variations allowed. And even those variations are encouraged to be incorporated into the system, not outside of it.
Meanwhile for men, they are allowed to be the way they are and there are compliments to be had for any way they are. There is attractiveness to be found in all of them, and while some women push back with their own objectifying rating system, it’s not universal and media doesn’t push it on women the same way (and when it does, it’s so blatantly off-base that it doesn’t get internalize in most cases).
It’s a gender thing.
tl;dr the thing you’re talking about is not your fault in any way (so long as you aren’t consciously and deliberately reinforcing it), but it’s absolutely exactly the problem
(well, not keeping it in check ESCALATES the problem, but its existence is a manifestation of the same problem already)
There’s an ideal for men too. It’s just not the same as what it is for women.
A man’s ability to hold a job or provide, How confident or assertive they are, Not being fat, Not being effeminate, not being unattractive, Not being weak. Not being whiny. Not being unathletic or being overly sensitive.
I’ve never heard anyone be complimented for being poor, or fat or ugly. Granted fat men can be successful, but it’s never understated that a fat man is usually treated as a JOKE first and foremost.
The idea that men don’t have an ideal that is thrust upon them is just…incorrect and almost hurtful. I’m not saying it’s equivalent but it is not at all non-existent. Everyone has issues, with their body, with how they’re treated, with how society sees them, and the idea that men don’t deal with that is incorrect. I’m speaking firsthand here.
@Liliet:
Do you recall Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons? I don’t recollect a lotta compliments going his way…
Do you recall Homer Simpson from The Simpsons? A lot of women find him attractive.
Comic Guy’s problem is not his appearance.
honestly like i exist in a vague blur of faces that are sometimes attractive but i never know what to do with them
but i definitely know that attraction doesn’t happen for me unless i feel like attraction is (possible?) on the other side too
Lucky. Unrequited love is my aesthetic.
eh. waiting for the other person to make a move isn’t always the best of strategies. but it’s weird! because sex was just realistically not an option for me for a long, long time! nothing, if nothing, puts a downer on your sex drive than your dad telling you exactly which of the kids in your class you can date while he works at the school. nothing.
lol. fairytale hipster trash princess is my current aesthetic
Personally I wish it was more common for ladies to make the first move. I’m super shy, but I’m sorta always expected to put my heart on the line and take the initiative. The anxiety of getting rejected can get pretty intense. Especially when you’re batting 0 for..6 years.
mmmmmmm i mean like part of it is that there’s so much pressure involved in dating and romance and finding The One. like maybe if every single time you weren’t putting your heart on the line, there wouldn’t be so much pressure, you know?
idk something about human connection requires something unselfish and selfless, i think – putting yourself out there without consideration for self while considering others. OR SOMETHING. the analysis. the discourse. the academic theory of human interaction.
I understand your point of view – I think- but it sounds as if you are dismissing that some people just can’t not put their heart into it. To each their own, but I’d feel very uncomfortable to date someone I’d not even like up to a certain level, and it is very hard for me to reach that level, as everything is emotion-based with me. Even if my head logically tells me: This is a nice guy, you share interests, he’s very polite, you have fun – but if even a low feeling of attraction is there, or if I feel uncomfortable with advance, I’d never could just get over it and try it anyway. I don’t tick like that.
Plus putting your heart out doesn’t always mean you’re searching for “The One”. It’s not as if people decide to fall in love with someone, or like them more than they are liked back – I think most people aren’t capable of controlling their emotions like that, only the actions they take upon them.
*”if NOT even a low feeling of attraction is there, or if I feel uncomfortable with advanceS FROM their side”… (yeesh, sorry, I should proofread my stuff more often!)
ehhhhh mostly here I mean that it’s probably more healthy to go into dating looking for friendships with a side order of flirting and potential dessert of romance, because that’s less stressful for everyone. demands less, promises more. I mean, the heart wants what the heart wants, and you never get anything if you don’t try, but it’s still…difficult
Not really. But hey, whatever rocks your boat.
…I’m really not? Like, I’m aware of “I like this person a lot” vs “I like this person a little” vs “I don’t care for this person at all,” but the only time I assign that a numerical value is performance reviews at work.
That’s what I meant by “subconsciously”. There’s features in everything that we like. Features we dislike. What appeals to us, what we find unappealing.
There’s an AMOUNT to how much I like everything, from food, to games, Songs, animals and people.
I’m not going out of my way to purposely and meticulously quantify people with a solid number. But deep down I know that if I absolutely had to I could probably come up with a number for how much something or someone appeals to me. I wouldn’t go out of the way to do that, nor would I make that knowledge public if I did, but deep down I know I can mentally quantify someone’s appeal from my perspective.
Liking or disliking someone varying amounts isn’t the issue. Having the ABILITY to assign a level of like or dislike to a person isn’t the issue. Consciously quantifying “I like this girl this much” into a numerical value and ranking her against the other girls you know IS the issue.
I don’t disagree with that sentiment. Trying to quantify people in general “unless I guess you’re hiring them for a job and you’re ranking them on their ability to provide for that job or something” is pretty uncalled for. Especially to the extent of creating a physical list.
So I don’t get where the contrarian “um actually we all do that, secretly” root comment came from?
Honestly, Because I do think that if I don’t draw a line in the sand, people will unilaterally decide that things that are “bad” are “unacceptable”.
Going out of your way to rank people, telling someone what you think their ranking is and using it as a way to de-legitimize how multifaceted they are as a person and look at them as a piece of meat is shitty.
At the same time, I understand that people will always have tastes. People will always form opinions of people before meeting them, and people may have their own personal opinions on people, and as long as they keep it to themselves I have no issue with that. And I worry those feelings will be identified as “being a shitty person” and people who aren’t doing that feel like there’s something wrong with them. That they’re a horrible person. They become afraid to form opinions that may cause people to hate them. And their self loathing grows more and more until they parrot whatever they hear without thinking through why they feel that way.
What Joe’s doing is definitely a dick move but I kinda have a pet peeve when things I believe are simply aspects of human nature are shown to be “wrong” and therefore you’re bad. It’s a rhetoric religion uses a lot and I don’t like it.
Don’t go around ranking people, telling them what they’re worth, and deciding their worth based on your preconcieved notions, but don’t feel inherently guilty if you’re just keeping it to yourself.
I’m sure not everyone will agree with me on that and I’m fine with that. It’s just my personal mentality that hates alienating anyone or making them feel like garbage.
See, I kind of feel like I should comment here that well, there are exceptions to people forming opinions of people they don’t know as well.
I mean, I’m constantly running the numbers as it were on everyone I interact with, but thats more because I have difficulties pinning down anything about other people beyond trying to analyze how they react to things and what their beliefs are and every observable trait or action or sentence I can, because people are a blank slate to me and its mostly out of paranoia and fear making me feel like I have to figure out enough about them to at least find out if its safe to interact with them or not.
That said, I hate numbers and all I usually have to go off of is my own completely nonsense aesthetics for the attraction end of things… so it basically is more a sliding scale of whether I can trust someone enough to be a friend or at least not someone who might intentionally hurt me in either a physical, social or emotional way. So either a + or a -, that I never tell them, and can change over time and only results in me completely writing them off if they’re consistantly toxic enough that I can’t afford to risk the potential costs it would take to let them continue to have a chance for redemption.
…aaaaaand here’s where the impasse lies, because what Joe’s doing is not human nature, as demonstrated by all the people who fuckin’ manage not to do it. What Joe’s doing is dehumanizing and gross and yes, unacceptable.
And for the record: I never have a problem with making garbage people feel like garbage. Perhaps they will get the hint and stop being garbage.
The problem is that the ‘Joe’ ranking systems, as opposed to a vague ‘I like her about half as much as I like the other woman’ system of personal attraction, is that it reduces an entire human being’s worth down to whether or not the ranker would bone them. Their potential contribution to society? The depth of their internal life? The people they love? All irrelevant. Their worth is just whether or not the ranker would bang. It is gross and dehumanising, like women are just carrying cases for vaginas.
Just because you do something doesn’t mean everyone else does. I can’t even rank things as simple as my favourite foods never mind the ridiculous complexity that is other people.
Well, I’m impressed. Roz actually went over the lesson topic Leslie had planned. And quicker than expected. Admittedly that’s probably because Leslie had some things not written down that she wanted to include and discuss, but good sign as to Roz’s teaching ability. Also, someone kick Joe’s ass as hard as possible since Joyce isn’t here to do so. Because
1) you shouldn’t rate anyone
2) if you have a creepy list thing keep it to yourself
3) don’t insult someone that it’s common knowledge you had sex with like that
4) don’t insult said person in public
and
5) I thought you already considered Roz a ten because she suggested recording you two having sex?
3) Roz isn’t allowed to complain about her low rank because she has to reject the ranking system entire.
5) IIRC, he was thinking of upgrading her to an 8 because of it, but hadn’t committed to that promotion.
It was an upgrade to a 9. Still, yikes.
Jesus, took long enough for someone to straight out say it. Don’t rate women, Joe.
Joe, she was literally saying you could go before you yelled at her.
Also the professor walked out, so I think you could go whenever you wanted anyway.
What was it Roald Dahl wrote?
“If a person has ugly thoughts, it begins to show on the face. And when that person has ugly thoughts every day, every week, every year, the face gets uglier and uglier until you can hardly bear to look at it.
A person who has good thoughts cannot ever be ugly. You can have a wonky nose and a crooked mouth and a double chin and stick-out teeth, but if you have good thoughts it will shine out of your face like sunbeams and you will always look lovely.”
Tomi Lahren is one of the ugliest people I have ever seen.
Roald Dahl wrote a lot of great lines.
Also plenty of stories about British Child Abuse, but that seems to be the theme of most British Children’s literature?
Lots of good thoughts in his books though, even if the stories tend to focus on horrible people and tragic lives in order to put the thoughts out there.
Nice in theory and in metaphor, but wholly untrue and harmful in many ways. You can’t always see it in someone’s face. Lovely people can be awful. The best people in the world can be ugly.
We all know this intellectually, when we stop and think about it, but the attitude creeps into our subconscious.
I believe that was supposed to be the point – that you can have lovely features and looks, but if you’re awful, people will look at and react to you like you’re awful. Whereas with the opposite, people will look at you and react to you like you’re lovely.
B-but I’m still allowed to rate them all because they’re fictional, right? They’ll never hear my opinions of them.
Isn’t that why we’re all here?
(To be judgemental of a cast of fictional characters and their decisionmaking, that is. Rating cartoons based on how bangable they are is kinda weird.)
Yeah, fuck you Joe. That just gave me traumatic flashbacks to what literally all the boys in my school were like. That was SO long ago, but it still shakes me to my core sometimes, all these years later. How these assholes would rate women like we’re not actually people, but just a collection of body parts put on this Earth for their enjoyment. Or, as it was in my case, as an object to ridicule and make fun of and make a list of to pass around and laugh about the pain that caused me.
Makes me sick that this still happens. I have young family members still in school and this shit STILL FUCKING HAPPENS. Grinds my gears. Ugh. So yeah, again, fuck you Joe.
a)ew
b)that sounds humiliating and terrible and i feel for your teenaged self, but it’s not the same when girls literally get valued by how attractive they can present and are being rated pretty much every second of their lives
And that justifies it? What are you trying to say?
I was literally #notallmen-ned and “reverse sexism”-ed and this isn’t even twitter. Fascinating.
I think that’s just a defense mechanism. No one likes to feel like they’re “the bad guy”. It’s advantageous to play the victim because if you’re not a “victim” you’re an “oppressor”. It is again one of the reasons I briefly formed a bad habit of bringing up my race when forming an argument. Enough “Men are scum” rhetoric is eventually enough to drive one nuts, especially if you feel like you’ve been personally wronged in a similar way.
Yeah, that is probably why people do it. I just wish they, you know, … didn’t.
The idea that women are valued by how attractive they are is reinforced by women. Girls list how attractive you are vs. someone else, guys grade you on how bad they’d like to see you naked, not how you compare to someone else.
so does that mean that women aren’t the main victims, or….?
Yeah, it’s pretty fucking vile.
I’m so annoyed at myself sometimes that this still bothers me so much so many years later. But I guess some mental scars inflicted in youth have a way of being really deep and kinda permanent. Sigh.
<3
*hugs offered* And you don’t need to beat yourself up. That shit is dehumanizing and sticks with you.
*hugs accepted and returned*
May I offer a hug too in companionship?
Suffered something similar – being reduced only to my body and being laughed at for it overdeveloping at some certain point in my teenage years- and it still sometimes haunts me up to this day. So…? *offers hug*
*extends hug to you as well*
Please show me in comment where I said that women can’t do the same thing. I literally relayed an experience I had in school that was traumatic for me and expressed frustration about how this type of thing still happens. And in my experience it was boys who did this. And it often still are boys. As my 16 y/o male cousin tells me about, for example. So don’t ‘oh please’ me.
I am very sorry that that happened to you. That sucks. I can relate. Literally. Bullies suck, no matter what gender they might be. I’ve also had female bullies. But that is not the point I was trying to make, relating my very similar experience to today’s strip of this very fine webcomic.
-hugs-
that sounds so awful and it sucks that you had to go through that
i think maybe it’s time to go rewatch Carrie
Thank you <3
Heh, I don't do horror films, but I like the way you think
SOMETIMES you just gotta watch a repressed girl wreck up all the shit
Haha, I can’t watch things that are too bloody and scary, but maybe I’ll watch Frozen or something lol. I mean, a repressed snow queen fucking shit up has got to count
that is very fair!! i have a limited stomach for gore myself. FROZEN WORKS PERFECTLY IF IT WORKS FOR YOU. *thumbs up*
for me Labyrinth is one of those comfort movies. limited gore, David Bowie, genuine character development, and muppets. and also like…magic and right words and *shivers*
limited gore what gore is there in labyrinth it’d be all. felt and fluff
spoilers: there are puppets that take off their heads!! And they’re gonna take off our heroine’s head, but she escapes. But they’re still at the party in the end, what’s up with that?
lolol i remember that!!! the fireys are inexplicable and weird.
idk maybe they’ve been let out of the labyrinth on good behavior
Does she ever stop killing people and blowing things up? It’s been a while, so I don’t remember if the movie addresses that or just ends with her walking off in a genocidal huff.
im pretty sure everybody dies but i’m not one hundred percent on that
This comment works equally well both in, and out, of context.
hardcore that’s my goal in life
You are consistently a singularly unpleasant person in these comments. I feel here is an appropriate time to state that, number ratings be damned.
Never tell a woman her rating, it’ll either offend her or inflate her ego.
Don’t rate women, Joe.
hahahahah +1
Or she won’t particularly care what you think of her, because she knows she’s rad, and she isn’t bein’ rad for your pleasure. She’ll also conclude that you’re kind of a dick.
Or put her in a sexism-induced rage that will make her tear your eyeballs from their orbits. Who knows, amiright? But keep on rating women, no sweat.
A couple of months ago, a woman asked me to rate the books in her book case, and I had a really hard time doing it (she had some of my favorites in there). People are more complex and fascinating (and, at times, aggravating) than books, I don’t get how people can be rated…
O, by the way, it was an actual, non-euphemistic book case
I’m pretty sure part of the issue with rating people is that to actually come up with a one to ten rating in any decently quick amount of time, it becomes necessary to start making assumptions about them and/or narrowing the amount of traits that are considered for the ratings.
Sometimes both.
Which I mean, sometimes “ratings” make sense. Like who scored the most touchdowns or whatever for sports cards.
Making a codified list of what order of priority to “do” people in as if it’d be necessary to know who to pick in case such a situation where such a choice is necessary though, kind of feels super questionable.
I mean, in that regard I have heard that sort of gossip from both men and women of various sexualities. Though most of the time its more of a “Celebrity A or Celebrity B, which would you rather have sex with?” sort of thing.
If nothing else, society has a greater expectation that men seem to feel they’re supposed to live up to when it comes to this sort of potentially toxic behavior however, so they have more leeway to behave poorly and more reasons to feel like they have to do so or someone will take away their precious “man card”.
Aww, you want to believe that women who are offended by rating systems are just mad you don’t think they’re hot! You want to believe literally any random woman on the street is deeply invested in your opinion of her looks! You want to believe that your rating of a woman has anything to do with whether or not you personally find her attractive! How cute.
But here’s the thing, friend — the rating system is not about women at all. It has zero chance of ever affecting us in any positive way, and women who hear that you rate them at all are all united in feeling vaguely dehumanized and creeped out, plus hurt if they mistakenly thought you were a friend.
The rating system is not for us. And it’s not doing anything positive for you, either — not even for your sex life.
Because the rating system turns what should be a personal judgment (“am I interested in this person?”) and turns it into a pseudo democracy. If you tell a fellow asshole that Woman X is an 8 for you, he’ll undoubtedly argue: nah bro she’s a 6 at best, c’mon!!
Pause for a moment to reflect. Ask yourself why you’re allowing your fellow asshole to argue with you about whether or not you want to be intimate with Woman X. Why does he get to police your attraction level? Huh. That seems odd, doesn’t it?
But it isn’t odd. It’s the entire point of the system: taking your personal and potentially private choices and turning them into a dystopian game, where rather than getting to meet a cool person and enjoy her company (in whatever capacity), you’re fixated instead on being sure that you only “score” women your fellow assholes would be jealous of.
And this causes a lot of guys to avoid women they’re actually interested in (as well as avoid admitting to being interested in more than just women), because they’re in pursuit of the “best” “score”. It ultimately leads to PUAs who self-describe as bored and lonely, because sex purely for the accolades of other assholes is pretty empty.
I assume you’re not actually one of these guys; I assume you were trying to pull a “it’s funny because it’s true!” joke, but don’t actually subscribe to pickup “artistry” yourself.
But the joke rests on these incredibly toxic assumptions.
Don’t rate women, Joe. You’re only making yourself unhappy.
This. This this this this!
Like, yeah, this is the thing about the rating system. How it punishes any non-normative attraction and individual desire and promotes an unhealthy way of looking not only at women but one’s own attraction. The way it treats sex and sexual attraction as something performative to other men.
And how it frequently leads to this unfulfilling awfulness out of this toxic idea that this is what it takes to be a man.
Like, as a kid, these were the things used to justify brutalizing me. Like, me not playing the game, cause I had no sexual attraction to throw in, meant things and that meant they felt justified hurting me.
Still now as an adult, this idea that sexual attraction is a public performance for straight dudes puts me at risk of getting killed. Because if someone has a passing naughty thought about me or goes “ooh, she’s hot”, they immediately start worrying about how the “boys” will handle that and tease them about it and so fill a strong need to reassert their masculinity in other, usually violent, ways and punish me for “causing it” by “deceiving” them.
It’s not just a bad system because sexist. It’s also bad because of how harmful it is for the men using it. And for men who are alloromantic, the whole system it is plugged into is based on reducing women to their physical attributes and sexual utility, which means these guys even if they have “success” frequently find themselves unfulfilled because they have romantic cravings they are actively trying to undermine in favor of this homosocial performance.
It’s just harmful all the way round.
Yep.
Trans women most definitely get the brunt of the backlash for exactly the reasons you described
And it is seriously also ultimately bad for men, if in a subtler long-term way.
Hell, it ALSO hurts aromantic people, I would argue, because they’re still boxing themselves in to that super narrow “I won’t have sex with anyone my friends wouldn’t agree is an 8 or higher” box, missing out on people they could have enjoyed themselves with and sapping a lot of the pleasure out of the encounters they DO have. No one benefits from performative attraction.
A couple of folks up there chimed in with “I’m a woman and I do this too” — congratulations, if you really do*, on ruining intimacy for yourselves by making it into a competitive sport where your peers get to shame you out of your interest in people who fail to make “”the grade””.
*I say “if” because some folks up there are trying to compare the 1-10 scale with questions like “does my partner have a stable job”, which… can be a matter of survival, not just personal preference, and I haven’t yet met a group of women who weren’t okay with differences of opinion on what is hot. Which is part of the problem, albeit not the only part.
That eye twitch. She’s holding back.
She’s holding back a lot.
I thought those stripes on Roz’s shirt were suspenders last time we saw her but looking at it now I guess not?
They are. Willis doesn’t draw buckles on suspenders.
@BBC I apparently hit comment instead of reply but I replied to you lower down.
BBCC I mean. I am just doing AMAZING typing today.
I had never heard of Tomi Lahren until this strip. Since she’s a blonde Republican woman on TV, I’m kinda surprised she isn’t working for Fox News.
Really? Interesting. Ya know out of all the characters Roz (and unfortunately Mary) have the wardrobes I’d rate the best.
What are the ethics on rating clothes?
@BBCC
Carla’s clothes are also great.
Clothes are not people, nor do they represent people in most cases, so rating clothes is a go ahead.
And tbh? Same. Roz is pretty styling.
Clothes are not complex people with feelings, so, sure, you can rate which clothes most fit your own personal aesthetic. I like Marcie’s.
Her usual outfit, or the one she’s got on in that Slipshine preview?
You people are all clearly and objectively wrong. Dina is the best dresser in the comic and on this topic I will brook no contradiction. >=|
Comic Reactions:
… So… yeah. My government just passed a law to kill me and everyone I love today while the President made an EO to make it so an emergency care worker can deny me service. So today’s reaction might be a bit more raw and a bit less forgiving than usual. I apologize for the inconvenience.
Panel 1: Oh, Roz, I have so many feels here for her. Like, I’ve been in her shoes, thrust into handling a class with no training, no preparation, simply because the person who was supposed to be running it abandoned it. And the thing about teaching is… it’s hard and it’s way harder when you’re the same age as the folks you’re trying to reach and they have no respect whatsoever for you because of that.
Like, Roz was thrown to the wolves here and it looks like she may have navigated that as best she could, but this never should have happened. Like I get why Leslie ran off but Leslie owes Roz like a ginormous chocolate cake and a boat for this.
Panel 2: … Okay, let’s be frank. Joe is not my favorite person. And he’s not my favorite person for a lot of reasons. The way he’s every shitty douchebro who thinks a Gender Studies class is something to disrupt and destroy when that hostility to even recognizing sexism is the reason we voted in a fascist who is going to kill us all. The acephobic “fixing” comment he made about Joyce that has been the source of so many corrective rapes against the ace community. The fact that he’s a serial harasser.
And of course the way he reduces women to numbers and to their utility to his dick. As if getting him off was their only usefulness and purpose.
And that’d be bad on any day of the week. But right now, I want to climb into the comic and rip his still beating heart out of his chest, because right now… the US House of Representatives just passed a bill making being raped a pre-existing condition that bans you from accessing healthcare ever again in order to give a “win” to a child-molester and all while whining openly about how “unfair” it is that cis white men have to pay for prenatal care.
This shit where women are just the sexually performative role we can play for men is tiring and upsetting most days, but right now? Fuck that shit. Fuck the way we are expected to lose all our rights and die because of angry white men getting pissed at the idea that one of us got “uppity” and tried to ascend to the highest office of the land.
And it’s even worse because he’s doing this shit to her, harassing her in what is a hellish situation for anyone, putting her down because she’s a woman in power that he thinks he can tear down for selfish gains, when she’s a person who’s currently sleeping with him.
Like, that open violent disrespect for one’s own sexual partners that is so rife in toxic masculinity is vomitous and makes me feel so hard for women and femme folk who sleep with men, because this sexist shit is rampant and expected.
Because actually liking and respecting your sexual partners as equals and people is “gay”.
So yeah… Joe can step on all the Legos and then step off a cliff into a burning volcano right now for all I care.
Fuck, I’m a mess.
-hugs-
screaming into space sounds like a good option right now
*hugs*
*hugs*
I am so sorry for the shit that’s going down in American polictics at the moment. I’m sitting here in my relatively privileged European bubble and am completely in shock how downright evil your farce of a goverment is. *sends you and your friends and your country all the love and good vibes*
I honestly can’t agree with you more about Joe. Also, *hugs* don’t apologize for any perceived “inconvenience” that you might add. Because right now? I honestly don’t know if I could respect you more. Because right now is fucking hell for a lot of people including you. And you have the strength to keep going on and commenting here anyways. So I’m just going to say what I’ve said to my three best friends and roommates: If there’s anything at all I can do to help, just ask. If venting here helps you in any way, shape, or form, do it. If talking to someone through the comments helps, I’m willing to help. Just…I hope you can stay safe. I mentioned yesterday I’m trying to do my best to help fight back. All that is left is to hope that some senators have a conscience and that a judge strikes down that EO asap. *hugs* And if you and your fiancé feel you need to leave: do it. You deserve better than this bullshit. And you deserve to live somewhere safe, where you can live a long time happily. *hugs again* You’re not alone. You deserve better.
….
And I’m going to have to give a similar talk to so many people tomorrow. They need to hear that I’ll be there. I wish it wasn’t so. I wish none of this had happened. I’m…I’m sorry.
There is a link one post down offering ways to help on the political level.
Thank you. I needed something like that.
No worries. I hope it helps.
Thanks.
See, I want to believe that Joe is actually capable of being a decent person deep down and its just that the only “acceptable” coping method he’s found is by being an emotionally detached douchebro who tries not to think too hard about anything….
But at best that just means he’s a disappointment like 9 times out of 10. His family issues may help explain things, but honestly it doesn’t justify any of it, or make him less of a douche for acting the way he does.
I mean, as much as I dislike Roz for how she acts, this might be like the one comic so far where I’m actually proud of her for handling Joe as well as she does.
*all the hugs*
I’m sorry, Cerberus, I truly am. I’m deeply worried for many of my friends and family right now as well as all the people who think will directly effect. I thought and hoped this was dead or that some sort of fight would happen but, no, it’s just vile and you have my deepest sympathies.
Thanks, it’s hard, because the sheer glee at the prospect of killing folks like me is just… and so many nazis not being shy about how they continue to support this vile shit because it’s “showing” liberals for their crimes of recognizing trans people as people and treating them with respect.
Like, it’s a heavy blow.
I don’t know if it’ll get better or worse but I’ll try and spread as much support around as possible. Thank you for your presence on these boards as I know people who look to you for advice and respect your views. You’ve also helped me re-evaluate several opinions of my own even as a liberal. Thank you and I’ll try to be more active.
I’m so sorry Cerberus. This is so vile. The pre-existing conditions just make no sense. I read someone on Twitter say that it had the level of an Illuminati plot to get rid of the population and it really, really looks like it (C-section can get you out of health insurance ? Whaaaat ?).
Be safe. (Is it okay to say “be safe” when other people are actively trying to forbid you to be ?)
All the appropriate gestures of support.
Yeah, it’s all so so bad. But yeah, I made it through last night without hurting myself and I have therapy today so we can formulate an action plan for holding it together, so I’m calling that a win.
The system’s fucked and it’ll be a while before we can unfuck it. Keep it together and remember, you are loved.
*hugs offered* Thank you.
*hugs* I….can’t figure out how to even put together words to respond to a lot of that, but um, try your best to not die, okay? I’m not sure well wishes and concern are actually worth much, but yeah, hopefully you can stay safe and stuff.
*hugs* Thank you.
I hope you don’t die. I hope your friends don’t die. I hope my many american friends don’t die. I hope nobody has to die for this horrible fucking bill.
You are loved. There are people who very strongly prefer your life to your death.
*hugs* Thank you.
There’s some mildly good news in that its sounding like the Senate might start from scratch rather than trying to pass or even modify the House’s version:
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/331996-gop-senators-to-house-healthcare-bill-must-change
Thankfully, Senators are far less secure since they don’t have districts to gerrymander, and the GOP majority is far narrower, so there’s still hope.
Everybody needs to contact your senators, regardless of party (at least one Dem in a red state has signaled he’ll vote in favor of it) and check BBCC’s link below.
I’m fully bracing them to still come up with a garbage bill, and then act like “moving left of the House bill” counts as being moderate or “reaching across the aisle”, even though that will be complete horse shit. At least some of the media will no doubt buy into that nonsense. People need to shut it down immediately.
And seriously, I don’t care if I have to wait fifty years, or what he does between now and then, even if the bill dies in the Senate. When Paul Ryan dies, I’m not even going to wait for the funeral to end before pissing on his grave.
If I survive this, I will join you in pissing on Paul Ryan’s grave.
If I don’t, I want my ashes thrown in his eyes.
I’d piss on the fucker right now but
a) I live in California and can’t afford to travel to D.C.
and
b) for all I know the prick is like Trump and would enjoy the experience
…
Sorry. One of my best friends and roommates got completely drunk for the first time in his life because of the EO and the Bill and the fact he’s openly bi and currently dating a gay man, so they’re both in danger of losing their healthcare, so I’ve been up all night making sure he and his boyfriend don’t end up drowning in their own vomit of something, and spent the morning helping them both in and out of the bathroom. Combined with my own reaction to both of these crimes against humanity earlier in the comment section and I’m about to snap. Ranting a little is helping me stay relatively sane with all the madness hurting the people around me.
…
Sorry about that.
I don’t see anything that you need to apologize for. Rant all you like, you’ve got more than enough reason to be mad as hell.
And you’re a good dude for keeping an eye on your friends like that.
Through everything, I couldn’t help but smile at step on all the legos. It’s such an evocative and personal little peeve to put in. So often once politics is mentioned, writers try so hard to scrub all trace of their individuality from their voice, as if it’s something to be treated separately from themselves. I admire how much you know better. I hope that’s ok to say.
You’re one of my favorite posters to read here, and nobody deserves what is happening. Hugs from me too; I wish there was more I could do help stop all this needless hell.
Okay, off topic of the strip, but important. Feel free to delete if necessary, Willis.
I saw a lot of people yesterday wishing they could help with the AHCA thing. There are actually some things you can do. Even if you don’t live in the US, you can spread information about what friends in the US can do. I have the important stuff here :http://blenderbender1811.tumblr.com/post/160322231510/not-over-yet
*hugs* Thank you.
*hugs* Thank YOU and I am so sorry.
Also, for those who want real time updates on what can be done, this is the political staffer who’s info I used for the post: https://twitter.com/Celeste_pewter
“Even if you don’t live in the US” – ah, brilliant! It’s uncomfortable to live somewhere where none of this is happening (and, I hope and pray, would not ever happen, but I’m less sure of that than I used to be), and thus have no way to promise to do something that will hopefully help those it’s affecting. I’ll definitely tell everyone I know.
And all the hugs to you, Cerberus. Your usual calm, in the face of things I don’t think I could avoid blasting people for, only emphasises how COMPLETELY HORRIBLE this set of circumstances is for you, that it’s wrecked you this badly. Be safe.
“I’ll definitely tell everyone I know.” – posted the link to Facebook, and two Americans instantly liked it. Yay, doing my bit!
As a born and raised Canadian, I feel that. I’ve spent a lot of time since November screaming bloody murder for people to call about stuff like this on tumblr (pretty much all my Facebook friends are Canadian, or I’d post there too). Social media is good for spreading the word.
And yay, spreading via Facebook!
Panel 3: I feel so bad for Roz here. Like, she’s been harassed by a lover during a rough time and no one is even bothering to speak in her defense. She’s left alone, in the spotlight with someone she is sexually active with treating her like a piece of shit and she’s expected to take it.
And that eyeball. You can tell that she’s internalizing it. That instead of re-evaluating Joe’s shittiness, she’s beating up on herself for sleeping with him. For enjoying what he brings to a good sexy time when this is how he treats her outside of it.
And I just want to hug her and whisk her away to a country that doesn’t suck.
Panel 4: Very diplomatic attempt to defuse a shitty situation. Which is actually a really good teacher skill. After all, you can’t really let them see you break when you’re up in front.
Panel 5: … I can’t.
Like, in this comic’s world, they are all trapped in the hell we all are. Tomi Lahren and the rest of her nazi ilk are touring around “liberal” cities looking for folks to beat up while the cops hold down the folks they want to kill.
Oh sorry, did you all think she just disappeared into the aether? That she’s not showing up on Fox every couple of days to sell a literal genocide against non-white people? That she’s not doing her level best to kill anyone who doesn’t look like her? Yeah, no.
So yeah, Joe invoked the name of a literal nazi who openly and repeatedly writes missives about killing all latinx people like Roz is just to “win” a point against her and get the upper hand in his vile little piece of theatre.
Cause ya know, wacky distraction and dehumanizing of women. So great and awesome.
Like, this shit is pure fucking evil that he’s doing. It’s extra evil right now and Roz is a fucking saint for not tackling him to the ground and beating his face in with that chair behind her.
I wish Tomi Lahren would move to Canada. She’d be liable to go to jail if she did.
Which is why she doesn’t.
I know, I know, but the US having competent hate crime laws is so unrealistic I don’t even bother fantasizing over it.
B-b-but free speech!
And yet those folks are so shockingly absent and silent now that a woman has been prosecuted and found guilty and is facing potential jail time for laughing at AG Sessions.
I.e. the thing free speech was actually meant to protect before internet libertarians tried to make it about protecting against folks being mean to nazis.
In Canada, free speech does not cover advocating assault, battery, or murder of protected groups. Much like how it doesn’t cover ‘uttering threats’.
We already have Lauren Southern. She spews a lot of vile, bigoted crap, just this side of the hate speech laws, but goes south of the border when she wants to cheer on violent fascist thugs while wearing a “MAGA” combat helmet while surrounded by Nazi bodyguards, and yes all of this is literal. She and Tomi would probably carpool. Also, we’re full up on shitty human beings, thanks.
Yup, that’s the piece of shit Tomi Lahren has been heavily supporting.
Blech, true. Ah well, it was a nice fantasy for one night.
And if Southern cares so fucking much about making America great again, she can move there.
And again – Leslie set him up to it. The way she handed over the lesson to Roz – not with encouragement and a reminder to the rest of the class to be on their best behavior, but with a dare to Roz – was an open invitation to the rest of the class to take whatever shot they would like at her.
She didn’t intend to, of course, and she will rightly be horrified once the dust settles, but what Roz is going through right now is because Leslie put her here.
Yup. And she feels trapped into going along with the abuse, because she so desperately wants to prove that she can rise to that challenge Leslie set.
It’s toxic as fuck and I look forward to the cake, boat, pony, and island castle Leslie will be buying Roz in apology.
I still think… desperately hope… that Roz will do something good of this lesson – because she deserves a fair chance to prove her teaching skills and gender studies chops.
I’m sorry for dwelling on it but given how good Leslie usually is, this is such a fuckup that… that it puts her on Alex (before she became awesome) level
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2014/comic/book-5/01-when-somebody-loved-me/html/
From the looks of it Roz got through Leslie’s lesson fairly competently off screen. I’d say she proved herself fine.
She did and I’m really thankful for it, but it’s nothing compared to the lesson she could have held given the chance to prepare and proper encouragement.
Holy shit what fuck? I’d never even heard of Tomi Lahren until to day, and now that I have and looked up some basic info…Joe’s really pulling this bullshit? Like, good God the fact Roz doesn’t beat his brains in is so impressive. I wouldn’t have blamed her for breaking that deal she’s standing behind over his head.
*desk not deal
Panel 6: And it’s getting to her. You see the anger in her eyes. The disbelief that he’d be so callously fucked up beyond even his usual levels of fucked up. The recognition of the contempt he has for her. It’s palpable and heart-breaking.
Panel 7: And again, Roz is a saint for trying to defuse this gently, trying desperately not to blow up, to be professional and meet the bullshit challenge Leslie set for her (seriously, a cake, a boat, and a fucking pony).
And this line? It’s good. It’s important. Rating women is PUA shit. And now that we all live in the hell we do we really need to start excising this “boys will be boys” horseshit out of our system, because that violent hatred of women is killing us all. There is no excuse for rating women. It should not be tolerated. Because that’s the shit that leads to the normalization of a serial rapist being elected president and treated like the most God-chosen president ever.
And Joe… it’s just the moment, but I want him to die here. This aggressive beating of women into the box he has framed for them. Devaluing their looks when they try and avoid his harassment because he thinks it’ll give him a “win”. Exploiting social power to harass and harass and harass without consequence.
Like, any other day I’d shake it off. But right here, right now. I can’t. Joe is human excrement and I would not be sad if someone ripped off his balls and put them in a blender.
I’ll feel differently tomorrow. But tonight… tonight I can’t.
Reminds me of a song I discovered: Jens Lekman’s “I Know What Love Isn’t”. Nice breezy tune with one caveat of rating women numerically in two lines. If it wasn’t for SCROTUS, I would’ve liked that song.
I’m hoping maybe with the time given, Roz actually talks with Dorothy and the truth about the party comes out. The last time it was brought up with Roz was giving Joyce the card to a therapy or crisis center. She suspected something and was genuinely worried, but any worry went out the window because she thought Joyce was being hypocritical. Her attitude has been grating in quite a few strips, but Roz would likely drop everything to get a rapist off campus.
“Actually, never mind a 10. Keep it up and you’ll rate an O4.”
“Rate a…. wait, what?”
“You know, like in the Army?”
“….. that’s…. what, an officer of some sort?”
“Yeah, a Major.”
“…. why?”
“Because you are majorly making my privates stand at attention and salu-” *SLAP*
Please don’t.
*reads up*
Erf.
Yeah, okay. I was viewing Joe as a harmless, clownish buffoon. As usual with Willis, there’s deeper issues at work here.
Sorry.
Thank you. *hugs*
Next time, here’s what you’ll do:
Joe: I wo*SLAP*
The end.
Actually, We now imagine a conga line passing Joe, each person slapping him in turn.
Lala-lala-la!*SLAP*
Lala-lala-la!*SLAP*
Lala-lala-la!*SLAP*
Lala-lala-la!*SLAP*
Lala-lala-la!*SLAP*
This is now Imperial Headcanon.
The sad thing is, that is probably how Joe thinks of his behaviour, harmless clownish buffoonery. I doubt he is aware how bad it really is. Like, he knows he’s being a dick, but has no idea of the scale of it.
Is someone about to become a teachable moment? Because I think someone is about to become a teachable moment.
Let the REAL lesson begin.
I like Roz so much more than Robin. Look at her dealing with this responsibility she should never have had to the best of her ability (and being sexually harassed for the effort) while her sister illegally squats in someone else’s home avoiding her very real responsibilities.
I know, right?
See, I think I’d actually like Roz a lot more if the comic gave her more moments like this instead of sneaky manipulative stuff or trying to drive up her popularity by making loud proclamations.
<3333
roz has got principles and character here
that i bet she learned from star trek
Star Trek was a big part of my childhood so the idea of Roz curled up by the TV with her dad and baby sis, watching an episode of DS9 and eating popcorn, is suddenly and viscerally heartwarming?
Unless they were reruns or dvds, that wouldn’t have happened. Roz is 18, comic-time means this strip happened in 2017, and DS9 ended 18 years ago. She would have been a baby and Riley wouldn’t have been born yet.
…. but maybe they bonded over Enterprise.
#thingsthatmakeyoufeelold
Yeah shockingly that’s exactly what I meant and figured could be very easily read into my statement but thanks for explaining the timeline of Star Trek and this strip to me.
I was instantly thinking of dvds, because it is plain impossible to follow a show on tv here in Hungary. I don’t even have a tv because of this.
I KNOW RIGHT
imagine her in like. awkward middle school when everything’s acne and braces and limbs that are suddenly too long and sudden periods and pre-teen bullying, and then like something honest-to-god healthy at home
….imagine roz liking wesley crusher because he was a kid who got to be included regardless of how annoying he was
There’s something to be said about a lot of people not liking Roz for seeing a lack of genuine caring for her politics (the idea that she only wants “ally points” because of how she comes across (angry) but cutting Robin a lot of slack and insisting we focus on her inner potential for goodness despite her politics being so morally abhorrent because of her…charming (to some) exterior.
People can’t tolerate a woman who demands to be taken seriously and will find any excuse to undercut her.
Also, gawdawful people what still find LesBin cute… frankly, in retrospect, I don’t know if it ever was.
I confess, I have problems with Roz not because of her personality as I’m guilty of talking over other people I should be listening to. I do have a problem with the fact she’s aware her sister is squatting in her teacher’s house and causing a meltdown of her life–and she chooses to just sit back until she’s put on the spot. Not cool, Roz.
You should be trying to drag your sister away from this.
Because she’s had so much success trying to control her sister in the past. This is Leslie’s mess to clean up not her student’s and Roz is already going above and beyond to help her by even teaching this class.
Given my personal background with abusive family, I’m really hesitant about blaming Roz for practicing self-care and trying to stay as far away from Robin as possible.
Especially as Robin has reported that Roz has spent years trying to sway her to empathy with not only no effect, but the pain of having bits of her statements be used by Robin to justify her bigoted actions.
Yeah this too.
I had to edit my comment twice because of my knee-jerk reaction to being blamed by Parent A for Parent B’s behavior, or for my siblings’ behavior. I was family scapegoat and got blamed for everything whether or not it was my fault.
Aside from the fact that I really don’t know what Roz could do to get Robin out of there, Roz doesn’t know nearly as much about the situation as we do. Up until Leslie showed up in class talking about an annoying houseguest, she may have assumed it was a happy consensual arrangement. (Leslie throwing Robin out did get caught on camera, but again we don’t know if Roz saw that.)
Why the ever-loving hell should Roz be held responsible for the actions of her grownass adult sister?
I don’t even like Roz but that is completely unfair. The only person responsible for Robin being a walking shit bag is Robin.
Because Roz helped set the situation up.
Roz set up Leslie(with Leslie’s consent I should note), Robin decided to go full on creepy stalker meets woman-child. What Leslie didn’t go into with her eyes open is 100% Robin’s fault, not Roz.
Robin may act like a child, but she isn’t one. She is wholly responsible for her own actions. It is neither her little sister’s job nor obligation to monitor and mitigate the effects of Robin’s every destructive whim.
And, IME, the fact that people keep acting like it is lets Robin keep getting away with being terrible.
Say what you want about Roz, she stood the challenge and taught the class.
You know, I’m trying to think of any decent straight guys in this comic, and none are coming to mind. Maybe Shaggy?
Jacob! As far as we know.
From what we’ve seen of him so far, I kinda feel like Jacob is a given when you’re trying to find examples of a good male character. He’s buff, good-natured, devoted to his studies, not obsessed with sex, knows when to withdraw from a bad situation, and is religious without making it his central character trait. The only thing approaching a flaw I’ve seen from him is the joy he got sharing Joyce stories with Sarah, and maybe when he suggested Joyce would snap and become hypersexual, but he stopped those the moment Sarah made it clear she was uncomfortable continuing.
So, that’s one.
There aren’t many straight men in the comic to pick from! Who do we have, except for Jacob and Joe (and several awful patriarchs)?
Well, there’s this Walky guy but he’s got the emotional maturity of Goku-which may be deliberate.
There’s Ken, maybe. I keep forgetting about him. I say “maybe” because I’m not super familiar with him, although there was his comment about asking a girl out before Becky was hired. There’s also one of the guys from the meetup Ethan went to, I think. Does the Dean count?
Ken’s a good kid
Tony deserves mention I reckon.
Hmm. Is there a full cast list anywhere?
Working on one.
It’s a good thing you linked to a page he’s on. I was about to ask who the hell Tony was, before I noticed that. Also, wasn’t there something skeevy about him?
Naw. He’s just a perpetual frowner. Or always upset. One or the other.
Now I figured out what was making me think Tony was skeevy. He’s a football player, and I’ve been conditioned to see them as Bad Guys.
I think that’s because the 80s were kinda devoted to portraying preppies as evil and it’s just stuck around in popular culture since then. Plus the fact that football, especially college football, can have a very, very toxic culture and you have the instant distrust of college and high school athletes.
Thank you for that. Because by using the “Tony” tag, I was able to cross reference quite a few minor male characters, including Jim! Anyone else remember Jim? Anyone?…Well, he still counts.
Jim! That’s the one I was thinking of. He seems pretty cool.
Is Ron in IW!? His orientation isn’t hinted at here in DOA, but he at least meets the basic criteria for decency.
(and the bar’s set pretty bloody low for that by society, for those of us what’re male.)
Ooh, Ron was pretty cool, for the few panels he had. All he really did was get Joyce a Sierra Mist and a ride home, and he promised to keep Ryan the fuck away from any parties he attends.
Oh yeah…I forgot about Ron. How’d I forget about Ron? He was pretty cool.
Hank, presumably?
is Walky straight?
I don’t think we’ve seen Walky express any genuine attraction to any guys, and besides that, he’s an irresponsible slacker with an aversion to anything serious. Hank, maybe, but he’s honestly got a long way to go before I really consider him a truly good guy.
lol i guess i’m okay with quantifying “guys who are works in progress” as “good”
but i guess there’s a level of you have to be willing to take a stand on something in order to be good
I would have thought the objection to Walky would have been the fact that he’s been ignoring the way his parents treat Sal, not the fact that his grades are suffering because he’s never had to study before.
nah Walky might be bi; he seemed to find the maths teacher to be very attractive
Wait, Jason or the actual professor? Also, when was this?
oh Jason that’s his name. It’s around the time he was asking for tutoring I’ll see if I can find the strip
Found it! Walky having the hots for Jason: http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/03-the-thing-i-was-before/suspenders/
Weird, I read that as Walky being intimidated by the fanciness of the suspenders.
Look at Walky’s face again, he’s not looking at the suspenders. He’s looking at what he wants to get out of this interaction. Jason’s comment sealed it for me.
(forgot about the rest of it!)
http://www.dumbingofage.com/2017/comic/book-7/03-the-thing-i-was-before/off/
ge-ge-ge-getting bi
Oh yeah, I forgot Walky — he’s fine, and he seems to be straight (delicious gay pizza notwithstanding).
Hank didn’t start off good and is still on shaky ground. Walky also is on shaky ground but closer to being off said shaky ground. He still has a bit to go though.
The bar wasn’t that they’re exemplary, just that they’re decent!
If we’re counting very tertiary characters like Ken and the Dean, hey, Sierra’s Dad is terrific.
Hank hasn’t been consistently decent, but Becky and Joyce deeply appreciate his efforts, so I’ll defer to their assessment.
Walky’s alright. Jason remains a prat.
I still think, All things considered, that Hank handled his daughter literally stealing his car remarkably well. He’s a great dad in my book. Lord knows how much trouble I’d be in if I ever took my mom’s car for the entire day.
Dina’s dad, if straight, has also been shown to be pretty decent.
On that note, potentially Carla’s dad.
Even if this were truly a problem in the comic, decent straight cis men are so overrepresented literally everywhere else in media that I would really strugglr to make a sympathetic noise for the straight cis dudes feeling left out here.
Not really sure how to read this one. To clarify some, I was actually trying to make sure there were decent straight guys in this comic as a way to sort of balance out the shitty ones in my own mind. Having read and engaged the other responses to my original comment, I can safely list at least a few, even if most of them are bit characters.
From what I’ve gathered, for every douchebag straight guy taking up a ton of space with his creepy nonsense and/or irresponsibility, there’s at least one decent guy who shows up, spends his screen time being helpful and amiable, then going on his merry way.
This is in no way an attempt at ticking off a token “good straight guy” box on some arbitrary list. I’m well aware of the inclusive nature of the comic, particularly its focus on LGBT+ characters, and that’s honestly one of its selling points.
See, it’s not even particularly focused on LGBTQ+ characters. Joyce, Dorothy, Walky, Amber, Sal — they’re all straight, and they’re all super major characters who have had big arcs devoted to them. Joyce is arguably THE main character.
What DoA is is a comic that acknowledges that LGBTQ+ people exist in real life, and we CLUSTER. We make friends with each other and we hold on for dear life. Ask literally any non-closeted LGBTQ+ person how many other LGBTQ+ people they know, and you will find that their social group is WELL over Kinsey’s outdated and flawed 10% figure.
The reason why DOA seems focused on LGBTQ+ characters is because most media, the overwhelming majority of it, is stuck in a bullshit house of mirrors where it’s 5:1 men and either 10:1 or 100% straight. That DOA has more than one LGBTQ+ character, let alone more than one LGBTQ+ relationship, makes it LEAGUES ahead of typical media.
But it still isn’t actually focused on us. It’s a story about kids in college, with more women than men in the starring cast, currently doing an LGBTQ+ focused storyline.
And every single time we get one of these storylines, or a new character is revealed to not be both straight and cis, there’s at least one comment asking innocently — often intended as a teasing poke at the unrealisticness — where all the straight people are.
Where are all the good Christian characters? Where are all the good straight characters? Why are all the dads douchebags?
These are real questions. The answer is usually “in the comic, you just have to give it some thought and remember that our cast is huge and the people currently on stage aren’t all the people ever.”
But they’re also exhausting questions.
I am a bi woman. Do you know how many decent female bi characters I have ever been privileged to witness outside of this comic? Because it is not a lot, my friend. Heck, even if I count the ones that play into the Depraved Bisexual Trope or who are only bi by implication because the B Word is treated as dirty by media, it’s still not a lot.
So even if this comic had 0 (decent) straight men in it, I would still kind of shrug at you, because…… welcome to my experience with every piece of media I’ve come across since I was born??
You seem to be coming at this with the idea that I actually need there to be decent straight men in this comic. I already explained why I even asked in the first place. I’m not trying to dredge up precious representation for a group I’m well aware is over-represented in the first place. Unlike most people who are “just asking”, I really was just asking. It was a question that popped into my mind, and I don’t think it was an invalid one to ask.
Besides that, I also wasn’t claiming that LGBT+ characters were the focus on the comic. I was praising the amount of focus given. As you said yourself, there’s usually a 10:1 ratio of straight to LGBT characters in our media, and what representation does exist is frequently negative and/or stereotypical. In this particular comic, I can’t think of any LGBT+ characters being portrayed as Wrong, the way they often are elsewhere, and that’s part of what I’m trying to say.
I don’t understand why your response seems so… I dunno, derisive? Like, I was honestly only curious, but you seem to have read some sort of undertone to it. And your response to my praise of how much LGBT+ content is in the comic there is, well, kinda seemed to miss the point of what was said. Hopefully, I’ve cleared things up. If not, I’m not sure what to say, aside from sorry if I’ve offended.
“But they’re also exhausting questions.”
That’s why my tone, whatever tone it is. (Genuinely unsure. Depressed and low on sleep. Recent pet death. Comments today trying to police Cerberus’s tone while she fears for her life. Life.)
If you don’t actually need there to be any straight cis guys in the comic that’s fine. Then none of this was actually directed at you and you don’t need to worry about it. Although I would stress that plenty of people asking these exhausting questions are also genuinely just asking! It’s just straws breaking the camel’s back.
I think I understand, now. Thank you for clarifying.
It’s okay. Sorry for snapping, as I am sure I did.
*hugs* I’m sorry you’re dealing with all that.
Thank you, Cerberus
I know I’m still extremely lucky right now. I’m not going to be in the immediate crossfire of the shitfest that is our president. I’m white and currently able bodied / healthy, I have a pretty good job, I’m WHITE and cis.
But my mom? She’s unemployed and struggling to get on disability for a bunch of stuff, and I am scared for her. For friends. For this country as a whole.
And the last couple of months have been ridiculously hard because my cat got horribly sick and as I foolishly depleted savings trying to treat her (I think maybe if I weren’t alone on the other side of the country and she wasn’t the only family I had out here… but I digress), it was just such a horrifying preview of what they’re trying to do to healthcare that was only barely improved from my “do anything to avoid going to the doctor cuz we can’t afford it” childhood. She had heart disease, they thought; and then it turned out cancer, after I watched her just rapidly lose weight and energy and worried constantly whether she was in pain.
The country is on fire and I couldn’t even pay to get a cat all the treatments she needed. How fucked will I be if I get sick? Ha ha ha.
Also if internet hugs are okay, all the hugs for you
Definitely all the internet hugs.
It’s always hard to lose a loved one, even the furry ones. And yeah, it shouldn’t be a choice between trying to help the ones we love and whether we can afford to feed ourselves and survive. That it is in all walks of life really gets to how fucked everything is and is threatening to become.
Also, I love Roz. Which I feel like I haven’t said in a while. But I still do. She’s really goddamn trying her best. Atta girl.
Its quite nice, after the crappy last week I’ve had, to have a lighter strip (if Joyce had come flying out of frame to lay Robin out with her fist of justice then that would have been pretty good as well) so next strip will probably involve Roz explaining to Joe why what he said was inappropriate (I assume she has a fairly good idea of what hes like by now)
Goddammit, I went 38 blissful years of life not having the slightest clue who Tomi Laren was, and now she is *everywhere*.
It just seems like it because “Leggy Blonde Republican Talking Head” is basically a stock character in American politics.
No. No, he is not.
My penis has its own rating system and you can bet it doesn’t involve numbers.
I have a rating system for your penis.
The Penis Rating Test:
Does it reach the partner’s good bits: Yes/No
In Case of Yes: Congratulations, you’ve finished the test. Everything else is purely personal preference.
That’s unfair. Sometimes I may just want it to reach hands or mouth. and sometimes I wouldn’t want it to reach anything. It’s a very multifaceted rating system.
Sounds like you’re just redefining ‘the good bits’.
Which is a totally valid thing to do.
My Penis is not Binary, it exists on a spectrum.
And strangely enough much more appropriate than anything referenced in the comic.
Danke ^_^
Oh Roz.
Like, she’s trying, but she really should have led with ‘don’t rate women’. Engaging with the system is a losing move, and now Roz has only weakened her argument. Like, if you’re not fully willing to stand behind this kind of assertion, don’t even go there.
Like, yeah, this is not a text debate, this is out loud and Roz has less of a chance to think things through before saying them. But this kind of statement is very indicative of Roz’s personality and politics and how she lets one influence the other, imho. For her, being attractive to men is a good positive thing that she wishes on all women, because she’s straight and likes sex. And that’s… oh Roz. You will learn better, I believe in you.
Actually, if Roz has any semblance of critical intelligence, she would have expected this to happen. I mean, Joe cheeks Leslie, the woman who can legally make his life hell by failing him on the course and having academic credits removed. Was it ever likely that he would respect a pseudo-TA?
Oh and WttFZ confirmed non-canon.
Wait, what’s confirmed non-canon?
Welcome to the Fuck Zone I think
But what confirmed it?
No idea, sorry. I didn’t even read the comment above yours I was just trying to be helpful.
There has been a Joe x Roz, as I understand it from Willis’s listing he’s put in his newsposts. This strip confirms that, in canon, Roz and Joe have not been together.
That’s… not what this post does. Joe was in Roz’s sex rape a million years ago. I don’t know why Joe phrased it the way he did but they have already had sex at least once.
Wait, Joe did what? And he’s not in jail right now? Why has this not affected the story in any way?
That was supposed to be tape!! That was supposed to be tape!! From that one time near the beginning of the comic Roz filmed them. Joe has not raped anyone. Although if he had, given the US justice system’s and education system’s track record of handling campus rape, he probably wouldn’t have been charged or gotten a slap on the wrist because we as a society are so bad about taking that shit seriously.
Oh my god yes TAPE.
AUTOCORRECT WHAT THE HELL
the novelty of joe has LONG since passed
So it goes.
Reference of champions.
Can you believe I only got around to read that book this week? Fuck, that was probably some of the darkest satire I have ever read.
well, it is Vonnegut.
And even he would have had a major problem writing a book about today’s congress that could match the horror and darkness of reality.
That’d imply he was ever novel.
He was never particularly amusing in this mode to me anyway. He can have his perspectives and feelings. He can even outline them in and impersonal way when it’s relevant. However, the way he shoves it into everyone else’s faces is beyond the pale.
Tomi Lahren makes me tense. No pun intended.
Ah the classic struggle of needing to be willing to accept that someone has the same rights as us and, at the same time, absolutely hating what they are doing with said rights.
Yep. It’s a good test of whether you really believe in those rights or not.
Oh. I just realized I had forgotten something about Joe.
He’s Jewish.
Maybe I suffer from eurocentrism and I tend to invisibilize Jewish people (I’m pretty sure everyone in the comments picked that up before me), but I read that lame “even Tomi Lahren?” comeback differently now.
I hope Joe is not apathetic to the nazi uprising in the USA (I mean, he has a right to be apathetic about stuff, I just hope he’s not), so he may be sincere in his finding Lahren less attractive, and may be sincere in the idea that “come on, you can’t put a nazi woman with the other women just because she is a woman”.
But he’s using that maybe sincere concern as a Jewish person as a pretext to harass a latinx classmate that he’s awful with not because she “defended nazi women by saying they should be 10” but because she’s a sexually active woman he had sex with.
That’s not okay.
accurate comment is accurate
Worthy of thanks compliment is thanked.
I keep forgetting he is Jewish because of how hilariously and aggressively Cishet white he is.
Jewish people can be white (and also all of the other things mentioned)
I’m not saying ethnically, Joe is Stereotypically White. He is basically what SJWs see bad white men as, chauvinistic and objectifying.
This is a very strange place to see the term “SJW”, honestly.
That’s what I was thinking, Taffy.
Although, I don’t think I disagree with the connotation I’m reading from this particular use. There’s a certain truth to the stereotype of “SJW”, at least as it’s used by, well, assholes. Those sorts do exist, and they make those of us who actually have a head on our shoulders look bad by association.
Frankly after everything I saw on Tumblr I’m kind of disillusioned with the whole thing. It’s funny really for most of my life I was all for homosexual rights, equality and all that… Then Tumblr happened and I got my nice illusion that the SJW side is not full of assholes taken away from me. Now I just mostly stand to the side and I’m too annoyed with all this to participate.
I don’t think I can begrudge that. It takes an almost superhuman amount of fortitude not to let the exceptional individuals taint the entire thing for you. I’ve been on the border of standing to the side for a while, myself. The only thing keeping me from giving up on trying is this website.
Honestly, thats why I engage on this site and generally avoid any sort of social media side of Tumblr. Like I just use it to go to friends artblogs really.
At least here its generally pretty easy to have some sort of “conversation”, instead of risking being browbeaten by the loudest worst exceptions in a group (since every group has those) for not already knowing everything or not having “earned” the right to try and care and understand the issues at hand.
People assuming that everyone is an enemy and aggressor by default, at a certain point starts to be super obvious and as a result puts other people on the defensive or more likely to accept that role in the interaction. Locking that perspective in, shutting attempts to discuss things down with claims that things should be innately obvious, doesn’t help people learn.
This is pretty much what I meant, Krys. You explained it much better.
@Taffy: Wow, really? Thanks. I usually feel like my ability to explain things is pretty horrible because people don’t seem to understand what I’m saying, so its good to know that wasn’t the case this time.
@Eldritch
I’m sorry but “I used to be all for rights, then I realized that like all humans some of them are asshole” makes it sound like you decided LGBTQ+ people … don’t… deserve human rights anymore?
Gotta say, thaaaat is not a decision you can blame on Tumblr. That’s just you, deciding that basic human rights for an entire marginalized group should be conditional on how nice they are to you, and it’s indefensible and kind of shocking that you’re openly admitting it tbh.
@Krys
If I’m being perfectly honest here, that’s why I rarely post here. There’s often times a tone used that is unintentionally manipulative and while I’m sure people have good intentions I can’t stand it.
@Li
And that’s not at all what I said.
I simply have no patience for assholes who attack everyone everywhere for just existing. I thought it was “equality for all” instead of the typical “Now MY group will have more rights than yours, let’s see how you like that.”
I very much still support rights for marginalized groups. Just don’t expect me to nod and agree when some of these people try to shove their idiocy down my throat.
And frankly… what’s Wrong with not giving a shit about people who are attacking me despite the fact that I have done them no wrong? You come to me with reasonable arguments and just need and I will support it. You come spitting at my face and calling me cishet scum rapist just because I exist then go do highly immortal stuff to your rectum.
“Now MY group will have more rights than yours, let’s see how you like that.”
Yeah this is literally a figment of your imagination sorry. No one is actually saying that. You’re hearing it because you don’t like being told, for example, that your straight opinion isn’t welcome in intracommunity discussions. Or that when you talk about “I was all for homosexual rights and equality”, people think poorly of you.
Neither of those is an example of LGBTQ+ people having more rights than you.
As for “what’s wrong with not giving a shit about people attacking me” — sorry, but again people deserve human rights whether or not they are nice to you. That’s why we call them “human rights”.
For example, I think you’re kind of a dick, but I don’t think you suddenly no longer deserve the right to get married, to have a driver’s license that reflects your identity, or to use public bathrooms, as just a small example of LGBTQ+ rights currently up for debate.
There is literally no amount that you could piss me off that would make me think you no longer deserved human rights.
And it may not be what you meant but you LITERALLY SAID you “used to be all for homosexual rights”, so if that’s not what you meant it’s kind of on you.
@Li
Yeah I might have worded it wrongly.
Here is the short, comprehensive version.
Human assholery beat most of the enthusiasm out of me. I still support the ideals but frankly I lost most of my faith in people.
Also just to be clear:
I am not trying to win you over.
I am not trying to change your mind.
This is not my sales pitch. I don’t actually care whether you reconsider your views or not.
If your allyship is so weak that kids being mean to you on tumblr convinced you not to care anymore whether a marginalized group is given basic human rights, your allyship is not worth much to anyone.
Yes, every group needs allies from outside that group. No, this is not my ally sales pitch.
But it is a fairly basic litmus test. People whose allyship crumbles at the first stress test need to either get out of the way or get stronger.
It’s up to you which you choose to do, and you alone. My rudeness to you should have nothing to do with it.
Hey cool glad we cleared that up but I’m still gonna say that people deserving basic human rights is not an issue that should require loving the people whose rights are in jeopardy.
@Li
They weren’t mean to me. This is probably where your confusion comes from. It’s seeing the internal fights and conflicts Within the LGBT that really made me puke. Dividing up along the white/black line. Being shitty to bisexual people seeing them as traitors.
It’s not meanness aimed at me that made me lose faith. It’s fighting amongst each other while still having a bigger enemy to deal with that’s really pissing me off.
This kind of stuff just hits me in the liver with “Humans are humans, no matter what they will still be assholes.”
and sometimes after seeing vivid proof that all (sorts of) humans suck, it can be a lot harder to muster up enthusiasm for defending any of them. there is no cause so noble, no group so disadvantaged, that some members/adherents will not be utter shit(s).
it’s the sort of experience that can bring on attacks of cynicism, depression, misanthropy, and/or “fuck, just drop the asteroid already.”
@StClair: Hey if you want to go full nihilist there I really really truly do not care. It’s pretty freeing to just wish for an asteroid instead of having to face up to the shit situation we are in.
@EG: I don’t even disagree with you that intracommunity issues are exhausting. A lot if not all of it is a direct response to oppression, though. If our lives weren’t varying degrees of shit, no one would be playing respectability politics in a desperate bid for approval from bigots (“trans rights need to wait for a while because you guys are weirder than we are! if we drop trans coverage from this bill, it has a better chance of passing! so wait patiently folks!”), no one would be lashing out. It all comes from a place of tremendous pain.
The race issue is also just because all communities are racist and no community wants to acknowledge it. In particular my fellow white cis people get very very outraged at the idea that we could possibly be anyone else’s oppressors. We need to get over it, and work on actually healing the problems in the community.
But again being crappy doesn’t mean we don’t still deserve basic human rights.
@StClair
Ah a fellow sufferer I see… The politicians over in my country didn’t make it any easier. We were through pretty much all possible options from leftist to rightist and they all proved to be opportunistic thieves and liars.
@Li
Mhm I never said they do not deserve human rights. They deserve those rights and they should have them. But I just don’t have any strength and optimism left to deal with this crap.
No it doesn’t it takes an iota of perspective and empathy.
I can have those things and still be burnt out on all the endless arguments. :/
Be careful throwing those stones near that glass house. Empathy goes both ways and the ability to show it to people who are “bad” is super hard.
Hate is so much easier. (Quicker, more seductive.)
I hit upon the analogy a while back that negative feelings are to sapient thought as excrement is to biological life – an inevitable byproduct. And because few want to just sit in it and suffer its presence (ie, self-loathing), we all have to come up with ways of getting rid of it. Disposing of it responsibly, burying it without harming anyone, takes time and effort, so most just look for someone they can dump it all on and call it good.
“Now hatred is by far the longest pleasure. Men love in haste,but detest at leisure.”
This is indeed a strange place to discourse about whether or not self-proclaimed “SJW” tweens and teens on tumblr are ruining Human Rights forever.
That said, my two cents on it are :
– That I agree with this piece. Really, the whole “you’re ruining what you pretend to fight for by being a dick” is relative. The cause won’t lose that much ground and you allow otherwise discriminated youth to empower themselves by saying repeatidly “No, no, fuck you” to the society that decided they should be discriminated against. Sometimes “the society” is really just a random person who asks naively “you sure you don’t make out with boy and girls to get attention ?” or “but aren’t there only two genders ?”, and they’re really, really naïve and really, really don’t deserve the wrath, but no lashing out at this huge piece of naïveté will really hurt your cause on the long run.
– That said, there is a Line to be drawn. The bloody Line is : you don’t drive people to hurt* themselves. And I know that Line was crossed by tumblr folks who I consider bullies first and fueled by a cause second.
So yeah, a Line, but that line is not “not being nice enough in defending Human Rights”.
*or more. You know what I mean.
Well, now, this brings up an interesting question. Whiteness as a cultural concept is heavily defined by the bigots who guard it’s definitions of whiteness.
Like Irish and Italian used to not be white. And Italian was still not white going into the 70s. So, if the bigots have decided that Jewish people do not count as white, if they are using stereotypical aspects of one’s body to label one a jewish person and abuse them for it?
Does that remove any claim to whiteness they might have, because the bigots are removing any of the protections that would normally entail? Because they are abusing this population based on their ethnic markers.
Oh, thanks for that reminder. Yeah, people tend to forget about the Irish and Italians not being White(tm) for the longest time. Hell, if they still weren’t, I wouldn’t even be considered white these days. I’d just be this lovely blend of Scots-Irish, Italian, and Mediterranean, with possibly a touch of Indian, subject to all the arbitrary racism that would entail.
This is the reason I’ve started to pick up on things more, lately, particularly in regard to privilege. As a mostly-straight, technically white cis male, my position is secure enough to help others with minimal personal risk, and that should be taken advantage of, shouldn’t it?
Sorry if this reply seems like a “me” thing. You just gave a really good reminder of how thin a lot of ethnic distinctions can be.
Yup, me too. I’m mixed Irish/Italian and especially have a lot of strong markers for being read as Italian. In a previous time, that’d mark me out for racist violence. These days however, because those groups are considered part of white, I benefit immensely from the white privilege that comes with it.
But yeah, it really illustrates the fluidity of what is counted as white or not.
This is part of why I always get concerned by anti-semitism. Mostly because one of my late friends was Jewish (he got hit by a drunk driver, so at least it wasn’t a hate crime) but partly because I know that if American bigots ever successfully push Jewish people out of the “White” category, the very next instant they’ll be coming for the Irish and Italians and probably anyone who isn’t a part of those ethnic groups but happens to be Catholic. And then we end up in the Republic of Gilead and I’m off in a “Colony” cleaning up radioactive waste.
I am Pasty McPastypants and therefore benefit from a lot of white privilege which lets me get away with stuff so I try do be as much of a shield as my chronic illness allows. Back where I used to live, I was the wrong kind of white (my surname is a common Jewish surname and my first name is a Hewbrew name popular among Jewish people and my father is an immigrant from a city witha really high Jewish population so I code really Jewish even tho I am not* and sometimes get splash anti-Semitism) and the difference from small town white supremacyville vs the multicultural city I live in now in how I am treated is huge.
Probably the most striking difference is that after 10 years away, fishing questions about my surname or someone outright asking if I am Jewish no longer activates my flight, fight or freeze response.
My point here is that whitness totally is relative.
*there is a good chance my paternal grandfather was a Jewish man who converted to Catholicism before his service in WW2, but Judaism is matrilineal, so.
A woman I know is an advocate for PoC rights and feminism. She has a white passing, but makes no mysteries of her jewishness for her last name is a giver. She was repeatidly harrassed by nazi trolls using nazi imagery and nazi threats to get her to stop being vocal. Hundreds of trolls : she’s pretty vocal (and absolutely adorable).
And she was attacked by antiracists fuckers, who kept telling her she should stop considering herself non-white because of her skin color and her relatively caucasian features.
While the trolls kept on threatening to put her in an oven.
So, yeah, I may be white but her experience taught me to not erase jewish experience of antisemitism, and that’s why I made this comment in the first place.
Thank you so much for this.
I’ve had people, out of literally nowhere, attribute my abuse history to the fact that my family is Jewish (ie, they acted like all Jewish families are abusive). I’ve had people do the same with my history as a trafficking survivor, acting as if it’s just a given that Jewish people do that. I’ve had people who wouldn’t even consider themselves prejudiced not understand why it’s not okay to call a Jewish woman swine or argue with me about using Holocaust comparisons flippantly. I’ve even had people get angry at me for calling someone out for admitting that they have wet dreams about the Holocaust! And yet, I get yelled over if I ever try to join discussions on racially / ethnically based prejudice or oppression.
Jewish people are only as white as we’re read to be, and it often seems like how white we’re read to be is however white is most convenient for the argument of everyone else. Non-white enough for neo-Nazis to want us dead, white enough for SJWs and ignorant leftists to act like we somehow deserve it. On one hand, we have to take protective measures to avoid having our inboxes spammed with pictures of the Holocaust, smoke stacks, or dead pigs along with a plethora of slurs, threats, and stereotypes. On the other, we need to shut up about our oppression because we don’t have it as bad as other groups and are somehow magically more privileged than actual white people, and it’s okay to take cheap shots at us because Israel. (Because everyone knows it’s totally cool to hold an entire ethnoreligious group accountable for a government for a country they likely aren’t even a citizen of!)
I, like a lot of other white-passing Jewish people, identify as conditionally white. The condition is, again, basically who I’m talking to. To some people, I will never be white. Period. Not just neo-Nazis, either. I’ve met plenty of well meaning people, especially those from Europe, who conflate race with ethnicity or who take us being persecuted in a racial manner as evidence that Jews aren’t white. In any case, we’re not ethnically white; we’re ethnically Jewish. However, there are Jews who are PoC and Jews who aren’t PoC, and it’s also important to maintain that distinction. Jews who are PoC face additional racism on top of racially based anti-Semitism. I, as a white skinned Jew, don’t have to worry about that. It’s not an either or thing like it is for a lot of other groups, hence why it requires a lot more nuance in its discussion.
Sorry for the rant, Jews being left out of social justice is just something I can’t stand. Seeing Joe being accused of not caring about Nazis here cuts really deep.
What is “Latinx”, and how do you pronounce it?
Latinx is the gender neuter form of Latino/Latina to be inclusive to all genders and dismantling the masculine trumps feminine system simultaneously. From what I’ve heard my Latinx friends say irl, they pronounce it “Latin-ex”
also: “La-teen-ex” because spanish pronunciation; but my friends say it both ways
The “La-teen-ex” pronunciation makes more sense to me, if we’re going to use the X. Without it, why not just say “Latin”? Forgive my ignorance, but new terms seem to pop up every couple of months, and I don’t follow a broad enough spectrum of issues with enough devotion to pick up on them naturally.
adding the X has it mesh better with other Spanish concepts (e.g. gendered nouns and adjectives). In this way one can say “este persona es Latinx y lindx” (“This person is Latinx and cute”) instead of specifying gender for the person
I may have butchered the grammar on the first bit because it’s 5am and Spanish isn’t my native language but the concept should be visible there
If it makes sense within the conventions of the language, I guess I shouldn’t question it beyond the initial raised eyebrow. Thanks for clarifying.
sure thing!
As someone who balked at learning Spanish because my father tried to force me to do so…
The explanation and example sentence do help understand it better even if it isn’t perfectly proper grammar.
So yeah, thanks for the new insight.
yup, because the whole point is that “perfectly proper” Spanish grammar is always gendered, and this is a deliberate rebellion/rejection of that.
You have Latino friends that voluntarily use the term about themselves? Every Latino I know hates it. My friend Bárbara (Mexican, lives in Guadalajara) made me promise to never use it.
I do too. It… it was not created by white people. You know that, right? It was created because some people in the community find it needed.
… I always forget that Americans don’t think Latinos are white. It’s bizarre.
Whiteness has zip to do with appearance, which is why Irish immigrants were originally not considered white, and why a ton of people only get “conditional whiteness”. Conditional because white supremacy only considers them a member until it hears, for example, their last name.
My being an American is not really the issue here.
Yes. Because they were non-binary and the existing terms in America were hurting them and making them feel excluded. My latinx friends were the one who heavily corrected me when I used to use “latino/a” or “latin@”. I’m not sure of its usage in other countries, but I see it a lot more in latinx communities in America, especially the parts heavily connected to queer or trans rights.
For a more public example, here is latinx cis gay man Mark Oshiro using the term to describe his experiences: http://markreads.net/reviews/2017/03/mark-reads-the-fifth-elephant-part-3/
Isn’t “Latin” the gender neutral form of Latina/Latino? I guess it implies a different group of people?
Maybe I don’t spend enough time on the internet, but it reminds me of “xir” and its ilk – we already have singular “they”?
Oh. Oh God. I thought it was for a completely different reason and now I feel really bad about that. Because, idiot that I was, I thought it was a shortening of “Latin-Mixed” and meant people who had parents of different ethnic backgrounds in Latin America or were part Latino and part Native American. Was that really racist on my part? I think that might have been really racist on my part? Oh god. Umm, thank you for clearing that up, I have a couple people to apologize to.
A word that every Latino I know literally detests, because “Latinos” IS the gender neutral term. ‘Latinx’ is forcing an English-language gender neutrality on words that never needed them, and in the words of one of my best friends, it’s “more obviously American than Taco Bell.”
Also, it’s unpronounceable.
Yeah, cause of that whole “if there’s one man in the group, you use the masculine plural” thing right? So I get that is probably more accurate to the language and I would not begrudge folks viewing it as an Americanism because it probably is. I’m more just following the lead of latinx non-binary folks I know and what they personally requested of me with regards to usage.
(Sincerely, I’m not an english-speaker. There is no political intent on my choosing of this word. I saw “latinx” twice or thrice on tumblr and I use it because I fear that “hispanic”, the word I was taught for “person from mexico, central america or south america, or their descendent living in the United States”, may have become a slur : I never see it used anywhere these days).
I’m Jewish, and I keep forgetting I have particular reason to dislike Tomi Lahren because everything else she says and does is so awful.
Also, frankly, I think we might be getting a bit carried away here. Joe knows Roz. He knows she doesn’t have a problem with having her beliefs challenged: she arguably even enjoys the debate. Sure, he should at least wait until class is over and they’re alone, but I think Roz herself is more likely to take that part of the conversation as banter or at least a teachable moment than harassment.
(Wow I didn’t think any of my comments ever would spawn that many answers)
(That’s what you get for trying to speak english I guess)
I’m learning a lot from all these comments, mostly about my own cishet white male privilege.
Another aspect is the dissonance between the “whacky hijinks” nature of this comic and the “slice of life” aspect, which has come up before; with Joe, I tend to place him more on the cartoonish end of the spectrum.
He’s still slightly less detestable than he tended to be in that regard than what little of Roomies I was able to get through. Mainly that he seems to actually be a real human with actual issues that are part of why he uses these sorts of shitty behavior as his preferred coping mechanism instead of just being a cartoonish douchebro who douchebros.
Remember Roz, you banged that. Whenever you start feeling too full of yourself remember that you banged Joe out of your own free will.
I have no idea why you think that having had sex with Joe is something Roz should feel ashamed of.
It’s possible, given that her sex tape with him was clearly something of a protest, that she rushed the selection process to find someone who was willing to make a tape.
But she got what she wanted out of the exchange, and she had a good time, and he probably didn’t talk much.
They aren’t currently in a relationship, and she didn’t lose anything by sleeping with him, so she has nothing to regret right now. Joe’s obnoxiousness doesn’t reflect poorly on her in any way.
It’s mostly just hilarious irony that the most Social Justice Girl willingly and eagerly banged the most chauvinistic deouchabag in the comic XD
Don’t take EVERYTHING so seriously, some things are just jokes…
Yeah, but it’s only hilarious if you think that her banging him is somehow contradictory. Having sex with someone isn’t an endorsement of their views. If Roz had a good time, they both got what they wanted out of it, and she has nothing to be embarrassed about, and your joke makes no sense.
But if you’re cool with making no sense that’s fine lol
[shrugs] Whatever floats your boat but I sure as hell wouldn’t want to go to bed with say… a Nazi or a hard-ass commie from the time of World War 2.
Still there is a silver lining to this. If she can bang a chauvinistic, objectifying asshat then she might just be able to communicate with him XD
My boat is not at issue here and you know perfectly well that Joe is not a Nazi, and your usage of “hard ass commie from WW2” is kind of awkward since the “commies” were fighting the spread of Nazism too and in fact terror of communism is part of why the US ignored the rise of Nazism for so long; we literally thought they would wipe out the more dangerous rise of communism in that part of the world. (Also we liked eugenics just fine and were plenty big Nazi sympathizers or outright Nazis ourselves.)
Anyway, I want to change the comparison here. Suppose Roz had a Pokemon card she wanted to trade. Suppose Joe had a card she wanted. Suppose they traded Pokémon cards.
Would you still be calling it ironic that she exchanged Pokémon cards with someone she has ideological differences with?
@Li
You compare having sex to trading Pokemon O_o? I’m seriously old-fashioned if this is how people nowadays think… Look me in the face and tell me that you would bang Trump if it got you something.
You are seriously over-analyzing things… as for Nazis and Commies. I’m from Poland. We got equally fucked over by both groups so they are basically synonymous with “people I want as far away from me as possible.”
And you consider having sex to be something deeply sacred and personal. Roz and Joe don’t, as they’ve made clear. It is morally neutral to have casual sex.
Which is my whole damn point.
And that’s all I even slightly have the energy to respond to, because I still don’t want to compare Joe (a Jewish man) to either Trump or a Nazi. I don’t want to argue cultural connotations for nazism and communism. It’s all inappropriate to the conversation. I’m sorry I engaged on it at all.
To be fair we went in Toooo deep. It was just a joke.
She banged him. You might notice she’s not dating him though.
Stop being gross.
The idea that women are expected to hold their sexuality as sacred is likely part of the issue that Roz made her tape to reject.
If a man has sex with a woman he hates its as likely to be seen as a victory over her as accepting her.
The idea that a woman having sex with a man is some sort of surrender or sacred pact and that by having sex with him she implicitly approve of him is toxic.
I mean you’re allowed to hold that standard for yourself about sex, also letting others in you’re house, sharing a meal, letting others use your phone, trading pokemon cards.
P.S. I might feel dirty about trading pokemon cards with a Nazi.
[sigh] People on this site love to overanalyze. I’d laugh as much at a guy who slept with his worst enemy. I don’t hold sex as “sacred” but seriously people have some Standards.
Does no one see the irony and hypocrisy of a feminist sleeping with a chauvinistic objectifier?
Why pack or sleep at 4am when I could get into ARGUMENTS on the INTERNET with STRANGERS about whether or not a fictional character is being a right jerk or not (spoiler-not-spoiler alert: he is)
90% of me feels terrible for Roz being in a terrible situation.
10% of me feels great because this is all of Roz’s terrible behavior catching up to her in one, giant, karma-infused slap.
Does anyone else have this sort of conflicting feeling? What are the percentages you’ve got?
I’m just laughing at the fact that Roz, the most SJW of the cast, banged Joe, the most stereotypically white, chauvinistic, cishet dude of the cast XD
Her shitty behaviour is catching up with her big time.
How exactly was sleeping with Joe shitty behaviour? Please explain.
Not shitty, ironically hilarious considering they Couldn’t be farther from each other in their beliefs. It’s like Hitler and Stalin going to bed with each other.
Ah correction. The second paragraph was more general, not connected to sleeping with Joe. Should have made that more obvious, sorry.
But is Joe white? I’m not saying all white characters have to be the same exact shade of white but Joe is decidedly un-pale.
Like I said somewhere else it’s more about his behaviour being stereotypically white. If you had a cishet white male in an encyclopaedia you could put his picture next to it.
See, for me Roz just reminds me of a lot of horrible narcissistic people I’ve known who do things mainly for the ego trip, in order to win people over for popularity and cliquishness, or put themselves above others with their self righteousness over how great they are.
But this one time, well she seems like she’s actually trying to keep things from getting out of hand, isn’t storming off in a fit because she’s being challenged, and is acting more mature than anyone else in her family.
So yeah, I’m actually applauding her for this one.
Not really sure the percentages though.
Saying she’s acting more “mature” than anyone else in her family doesn’t really mean THAT much, though. I mean, we don’t know much about her dad, I don’t remember if her mother has been seen in the comic (and if she has, what she did), and the two sisters are either Literally A Child or Robin.
Not a high bar to clear, you see.
I mean, I can still applaud her effort and the message she’s trying to send. And it sucks that when we see her get a comeuppance that she’s been deserving for a LONG time, it’s right here and now. But…in spite of all the FANTASTIC points that Cerberus makes (as Cerberus does because Cerberus is just super smart), I still feel that tiny bit of “yep, the universe has punished her behavior. May she learn from this and stop being a holier-than-thou parody of pseudo-ally activists”.
See, part of it is that honestly to me the only one who seemed like an actually decent human being for the most part up to this point was the one who was literally a child.
I mean the one who acts like a small child when she’s the only grownup of the three is still the worst and a lot of my dislike for Roz possibly has to do with how she’s framed as a character, but most of her scenes so far have had her acting pretty consistently awful to or about other people. She’s also both a sore loser and a braggart as a winner as far as we’ve seen.
So yeah, mixed feelings with hope towards her actually getting better about those things, or at least her good sides showing up more to counter out her awful ones.
I agree it’s kind of tactless to have a public “Do List”, but there is nothing wrong in rating people, it all comes down to personal preference/attraction.
Yeah, maybe. However, actually throwing it at people and attempting to bribe them with their rating on your list is just pure jerk.
I mean yeah there is, it’s gross, disrespectful, and incredibly arrogant to quantify a human beings worth by how much you want to fuck them.
It’s not quantifying their worth, just quantifying how much the specific individual list-maker wants to fuck them. No one was claiming that this list pertained to anyone’s inherent worth. Yes, it’s tasteless and rude to publicly declare it, but don’t act like most people don’t have a ranking of who they’d prefer to fuck
No, not really. I mean, there are a couple of people I’m interested in and I could probably, with some effort, tell you which I’d rather wind up with. Even adding in the occasional “well she’s hot” moment, that’s a far cry from actually having even an internal ordered list of nearly everyone I know (or even just see).
If they’ve entered a beauty pageant, perhaps, but that’s about the only time.
People do not exist for your benefit. If you insist on rating them, at least keep that shit to yourself
So much useless debate going on here.
Can’t we just agree that it’s fine to be picky about who you have sex with, but NOT okay to be so VOCAL about it?
sounds good. I think I’m gonna read this comment and this comment alone and call it a day on this one.
Nobody is saying Joe shouldn’t be picky about who he dates. Rating women != merely choosing to not have sex with some of them. Like, don’t try to spin people objecting to his rating system as thinking Joe isn’t allowed to have standards.
That is exactly what you’re saying, though.
Nobody “merely choses” who to have sex with. They do it through a system of standards. They decide who they want to fuck based on a system of values and requirements.
Who the LIVING, HOLY FUCK just flips a coin and goes “Nah”?
The problem with all this rating-system argument nonsense is that some (very stupid) people have this impression that a rating system like this is used for “judging that person’s worth to society as a whole”.
But it’s fucking not. It’s just a very personal “How likely would I be to wanna fuck this person”. Some guy calling some girl a 3 isn’t announcing that that person is a useless pile of trash, he’s just saying “I personally find her very unattractive and would be very unlikely to sleep with her”.
At the very worst, her feelings are being hurt. She is not being de-valued.
I’ve been seeing a lot of comments and references to Roz’s watered down liberalalism, performative allyship, “white” feminism (I know she’s latinx but I can’t think of a better term) and just all around pretentious “i deserve a cookie for saying you should have rights” bs but…I can’t remember ever seeing this? Idk, I usually don’t pay attention to Roz and I’m pretty much indifferent to her, so maybe I just missed this part of her character. Does anyone have any examples? All I can think of is the fact that she’s very sex positive, which I can see how that could lead to some disregard for intersectionality, but something tells me that’s not all she’s done?
I had to look up “intersectionality”, but the given definition didn’t quite click. Could you elaborate on it, a little? Because from context, it almost seems like you might be saying a sex positive person could be problematic in some way, but that doesn’t seem right.
I’m a n00b but I’ll try to give you a hypothetical scenario of how a sex positive person could screw up…
A sex positive feminist like Ros says something negative or erasing to an asexual person because to this sex positive person, sex is great and if they perceive someone as anti-sex they must be repressed or shaming women for enjoying sex or some shit.
Dunno if that was what bleepbloop was getting at, but that’s the most obvious way I can think of where someone very sex positive could screw up (forgetting asexual people exist)
Oh, yeah, that does seem like an easy pitfall. Thanks for the example, I think I’m starting to understand.
Another example that might help: Kimberlé Crenshaw, the woman who coined the term, has an interview in the New Statesman where she talks about how black feminist theory applied to anti-discrimination law. She cites a case where black women were being discriminated against by GM:
“The courts’ thinking was that black women could not prove gender discrimination because not all women were discriminated against, and they couldn’t prove race discrimination because not all black people were discriminated against.”
So very simplistically (but hopefully accurately), intersectionality is used to describe how discrimination on one axis (gender) changes when it goes along another axis (race) and/or how multiple types of discrimination can occur at once.
Very late reply, but basically an example of that would be how it’s easier for white women to be sex positive because they’re usually seen as “pure” and “innocent”, especially compared to woc. Black and latinx women especially have a harder time embracing their sexuality bc they’re constantly fetishized and hypersexualized. It’s hard to say if thats the case for Roz since she IS Latinx but yeah. The asexual example works too smashman!
Basically, I believe it was the first time Willis showed Leslie’s lesson in detail.
IIRC, Joyce expressed sympathy for homosexual youths who’d been left homeless and destitute. Roz attacked her for hypocrisy by claiming sympathy when she’s a member of the same religious bracket that was responsible for many of these incidents. Leslie tried to break them up but Roz kept on pushing, criticising Joyce and ignoring Leslie’s requests for attention until Leslie asked her to leave the room.
It’s been a while though; I might have got some of the details wrong.
That’s about the sum of that event. Joyce was having a legitimate breakthrough after 18 years of programming, and Roz got combative about it, accusing Joyce of wanting a parade. That kind of thing is never helpful, and I feel it’s actually harmful, because it discourages people from visibly changing their ways.
It’s never a good idea to attack someone who might become an ally or at least a neutral.
That’s part of the reason I gave my Tumblr and Twitter accounts the scorched-earth treatment before they gained any traction. There were a lot of accounts I followed who were starting to respond, and other followers of them were becoming hostile. This site has been pretty much the opposite, so far, so this is the community to be part of.
Yeah this is one of the things I hate about Tumblr. This raving mad stampede of hatred, once it gets rolling it’s borderline impossible to stop and these people who have Justice on their lips drive teenagers out of the site or straight into suicide.
I’d guess that the vast majority of people driving kids to suicide, even on Tumblr, are not on the “Justice” side.
Yeah but they still do it in the name of equality and justice…
In fairness, it’s been argued that Joyce needed that. That she was being coddled and needed that kind of slap in the face to push her to – for example – break up with Ethan. It’s even been alluded to in comic with Joyce’s invitation of Roz to her party.
I don’t subscribe to it, at least as a general rule, even if it did work on Joyce.
Joyce argued that Joyce needed that and she considers the moment positively and credits it for moving her into a point of real acceptance for her queer friends including her recognition of the awful aspect of her “corrective” relationship with Ethan.
Joyce really does seem to have a pretty good head on her shoulders, in spite of all that programming she had growing up. Like, she can actually realise when having a certain type of personality around is good for her personal growth, and then allow the lesson to stick. It’s really a good thing she didn’t go to Anderson with Becky, or things could have gone in a completely different direction for her.
The reactions to that moment were something I really appreciated. Roz got a reprimand from Leslie and thanks from Joyce, and though those seem contradictory, I think she really deserved both.
Joyce said she sometimes needed someone like Roz, but she never thanked her specifically for what she did AFTER Joyce realized the issue. Which, of course, she couldn’t have, since she had already left.
That was the point when we realized that Roz was doing performative allyship. At least, when, after that point, she didn’t apologize.
Yes, Joyce was the better person and was doing the whole “love your enemies” thing which is good on her. She chose to forgive and only look at the positives instead of the negatives.
Just like I can say I think well of Roz for finishing the lesson (and the rest of the class for not leaving). While I still will point out that she has been awful, and, in many ways, a clone of her sister.
And that’s true even if it turns out the Roz is non-binary, as it in no way excuses anything they’ve done.
Nobody brought up the non-binary theory but you.
Roz did not owe Joyce an apology – Joyce deserved that call out and that’s WHY she said she sometimes she needed someone to be mean.
“accusing Joyce of wanting a parade.”
Can someone explain how that kind of accusation is meaningfully different from phrases like “performative allyship”?
Well, as I said, Joyce was having a legitimate breakthrough after years of programming, and Roz was dismissive, even somewhat hostile, in response. Joyce’s honest reaction to being hit with reality was to be shocked and horrified, followed by open rejection of the causes for that reality. Roz treated it like she was asking for gold stars and smiley-face stickers, and that sort of attitude can discourage people from openly reacting the way Joyce did.
Of course, as was pointed out above, Joyce actually appreciated Roz’s response after the fact, since it did keep her from getting a swollen head about how enlightened she suddenly was for having a normal reaction.
*LGBTQ+ youths
*like, both the kids that are homeless and the people harmed by Joyce’s former rhetoric are not just gay
Seriously, Roz has always come off to me as 100% sincere in here beliefs. It’s never felt performative just angry and out of patience.
Yeah, and a little bit nasty, which I dunno, I can at least empathize with knowing what she dealt with and still deals with.
Like, her coming of age was with Robin who is a frickin’ sieve when it comes to careful long conversations about the humanity of folks and she apparently had slow patient conversations with her to try and sway her for years.
And now she’s dealing with Mary who is pure awfulness as her roommate and from what we’ve seen from their interactions, Mary is constantly backbiting at her while Roz tries her best to be firm but civil and defend.
So yeah, she’s going to break from time to time and be a bit of a dick. And she’s certainly going to celebrate the downfall of her awful sister because her sister has been dragging her constantly into her campaign against everything Roz cares about.
But yeah, I think it’s all more or less genuine even though she knows she is good at performing a fake persona for political gain and loathes that aspect of herself because of how little she likes Robin who is a master at it.
Roz is a trooper! You give that lesson, Roz. SOMEONE has to do the job.
You can just go home, Joe. Literally nothing’s keeping you there – if the lecturer isn’t on attendance, you don’t need to either (you too, Walky).
I rate Tomi Lahren as “truckable” – as in, I would yay if she got hit by a truck.
Another person I had to look up. She certainly seems extremely truckable.
I also had to look her up. Ugh. Does Joe like her? I couldn’t tell (and maybe don’t want to know)
We can’t tell from the comic – he certainly seems to know that Roz doesn’t, which is why he asks her if she would rate even Lahren as a 10.
He thinks she’s hot. I think it’s safe to assume that’s the extent of it
Today’s strip just got me thinking about ratings and how dehumanizing they are. As a kid I always felt like adults were rating me, and they had a number of explicit systems for doing so. I mean, sure, if pressed they would have said other things mattered more, but what they gave me the most grief for was the grade I got. And other kids rated my inability to kick a ball so harshly that I despise sports to day. And to top it all off I was never, ever masculine enough for anybody. So you take that dehumanization and turn it up to 11, and you get the practice of rating women. Anything she ever did or was, just sweep that aside; how does she rate on fuckability? Christ, don’t rate women, Joe.
Yeah, those systems are so toxic.
*hugs offered* Sorry you had to go through all that.
Thank you. I have come to depend on this strip and comment threads for some, I don’t know, perspective? People need to think about what they’re laying on a kid. It can do lifelong damage. That was over a half century ago and I still wonder if I can find what’s really me and what’s just a pile of cultural conventions.
Then I look at what’s happening in this country and think about kids growing up now.
Who ?
Millenial conservative “analyst”. She’s best known for being invited to be on the Daily Show and claiming “Well, I’m a millenial, so I don’t ascribe to labels.” That, or her equating Black Lives Matter to the KKK.
She’s a piece of shit.
KKK wants black people dead.
BLM wants police dead.
Not that big of a difference.
BLM wants police to stop murdering them in cold blood on the flimsiest of excuses.
Try getting your news from a source that isn’t as racist as Fox News.
Oh please. Not even *you* believe that lie. No one does. You just think it makes you sound less racist if you pretend you think protesting violence is the same thing as murder.
Pro-tip: It doesn’t.
Bollocks.
Lets see her house is big with a lot of high shelves that’s a plus. But she sprays me every time I go on the table gotta subtract points for that. She provides regular food and water that’s good, but the foods never the good stuff. She’s also warm, lays pretty still and has a good petting hand. I’d say a solid 7.
A cat rating a human anything more than a 5? That’s totally unrealistic.
Cats can rate humans higher than 5, but only after they’ve tasted their cold, dead corpse.
For cats there are 2 types of people.
1: Other cats.
2: Slaves.
They never really rate us as much as tolerate our subservience.
Joe is being a jerk.
But I think his personal views dehumanize men more than women.
You’re cat probably doesn’t care about what media you consume, what you do for a living, what you’re politics are, just the small fraction of your life you devote to being a pet owner. Because your cats just a cat.
I have literally no idea what this analogy means.
I believe Joe has internalized that men only really care about sex with women. I think he believes men don’t have complex lives outside of women, but women have complex lives outside of men which men as two dimensional beings should not pretend to be able to participate in.
*sigh* Don’t rate women, Joe.
I mean, I don’t hate him anymore than I did particularly as he’s just batting par for his very face-palm inducing course.
Let me sum up my thoughts on the subject: the actual rating isn’t the problem, the context is. If your tastes are simple enough that you can actually put them on a scale, good for you. But the problem comes with taking a rating of attractiveness as an overall judgement of worth. People who rate women do this far too often, making the rating thing creepy by association. The fact that women are often regarded as having little worth anyway, at least by people in power, compounds this.
I concur.
This behaviour seems juvenile to me.
I suppose Joe is another man-child.
Well put. (applause and an internet for you)
Replace “women” with “people” and I agree.
Bollocks.
(reads all of the comment section)
… I’d just like to say that you can tell how good the audience of a webcomic is if, even when they are all angry or frustrated or what have you, they can all calm down and be civil to each other later. And apologies are given and accepted by all sides for anything untoward that was said.
And that’s an awesome thing that restores my faith that the world is still a great place.
And in true DoA commentariat fashion, we’re all very sorry for deceiving you so.
Especially if the comment system is anonymous. Anonymity is a measure of your morality when there’s no consequences.
Getting comments deleted or being banned is a consequences.
This isn’t a free speech zone, this is a place where Lord Willis is the authority of correct speech. (I’m sooo getting banned for this comment xD )
“Free speech zones” are anarchic hell pits where no meaningful discussion can happen because everything constructive is drowned out by people just trying to be assholes.
Freedom of speech – even if you’re only talking about it in principal, not the law – absolutely does not require anyone to give you an audience or a platform.
Yes, people shouldn’t close themselves off just because they disagree, even though they have the right to do so.
That does not, and has never meant that anyone must or even should put up with you for even a moment if you’re being disrespectful, belligerent asshole.
If you call me on the phone and start harassing me, I’m going to hang up on you. If you come into my house and start spouting racist, homophobic, or misogynist garbage, I’m going to kick you out. If you post on Willis’s website and break his rules, he’s gonna ban you.
And none of those actions would be even slightly in conflict with the principal of free speech.
Convincing people to listen is the job of the person who wants to be heard. If you can’t figure out how to do that, that’s your damn problem.
This is true. But that means it applies both ways.
That’s why it’s not tone policing to point out that being disrespectful or belligerent is not helpful to getting people to listen.
You can be as angry as you want, but if what you say comes off as abusive, then people are more likely to decide that you are not entitled to them as an audience. They can choose to stop listening even in the middle of what you are saying.
That’s why people point these things out. This is different from someone who says you are wrong because you angry. That is tone policing.
And I still call bullshit. Known too many people where it worked.
But are all Tenns women?
Wait it said “tens” nevermind
This freakin comment section…
Feh. I’m way more ticked off about his parameters and metric.
At least if I were rated I’d know where I stand.
I rate you chewing-gum out off waffle.
Is that fucker’s remorse I hear, Roz? Too late, you willingly had sex with this asshole and recorded it. It will follow you forever and his actions will unfairly reflect on you.
Why would his behavior reflect on her? She’s not responsible for him just because they had sex once.
in the tabloids I mean. I didn’t say it was fair. Just that society is stupid and wrong like that
And now you know how Brian Cohen felt Roz
I do not give people numeric scores for attractiveness. It just is not useful to me to do so. But in no way is doing so inherently sexist or anything else. Some people have brains that like to categorize.
Unless the person is judging your entire worth as a human being. That’s a problem. But that’s because they think your worth is entirely tied up with how sexually attractive you are.
That is Joe’s problem. Not the ranking itself, which could be benign. But that he still has problems treating women as full human beings with value beyond how hot they are.
Well, that and he thinks that women care how hot he thinks they are, and will jump at the chance to get higher on the list. That’s what makes what he says here so offensive.
It’s not merely revealing a ranking system out loud. It’s what he’s communicating in doing so in this particular way, combined with what we already know about his character.
It’s not as if something can become sexist just because you said it aloud. If was sexist when you said it, it was sexist when you thought it. In Joe’s case, it was sexist because he continues to buy into a patriarchy where men rating the sexual desirability of women is a valid way to control them.
Women are not merely sexual objects.
Does Joe have an issue treating women as full human beings? It seems to me that Joe is just interested in no-strings casual sex with partners that want the same. It’s like he’s LFG in an MMORPG, and assigning value to how much fun he thinks he would have with them, rather than what they’re worth overall.
This comic reminds me of…well, several incidents across my life. But in particular it reminds me of recently when I was with a guy and he started comparing my body to his ex-girlfriend’s. It was done in a way that was supposed to be favorable to me, but it was gross and made me super uncomfortable.
So this comic kinda blew up.
Most comments since March 20th (Clint vs. Billie).